Nice progress on your iterations, especially that last one. Disciple of Bolas is a good tutor target, even off of transmuting Dimir House Guard (as are a number of other 4 cmc cards in your list). And I usually have fun stealing somebody else's Solemn Simulacrum after they choose it for sacrifice or chump-blocking so they draw a card. Don't be afraid to spend some life and mana just before your turn animating and saccing him more than once or twice if you have the mana open and the life to spare.
At the moment I don't run Sol Ring in anything nor do I run Koko and/or Gary in my Chainer deck, but that just has to do with deckbuilding and piloting challenges I've set for myself. For example, one challenge is to win by combat rather than through leeching effects like the above two or Exsanguinate-style or Falkenrath Noble-style effects.
However, when I did run Sol Ring, a turn 1 Myriad Landscape followed by turn 2 Sol Ring happened more than once and can easily mean the game.
Regarding the comments on redundancy, there's an equilibrium to be struck between complementary effects, backups for important effects, and still having a wide assortment of answers. For example, the list I based mine off of ran Strands of Night, but because I'm trying to not depend on looping ETB effects as much I replaced it with Phyrexian Reclamation as an effect that is complementary to Chainer's -- as it does something slightly different -- rather than a backup. I have more options if they're both on the field. But that's my approach.
Some other card-specific commentary (that you've speculated on, added, or removed):
Phyrexian Tower is definitely a nice card, but was hard to find anyway nevermind it being pricey.
Songs of the Damned really depends on how many creatures you end up with in your graveyard typically. It usually wouldn't be much more than a Dark Ritual or two for me. Instead I'm trying out Bubbling Muck.
Armillary Sphere is not ramp as the lands go to hand. Without an effect letting you land more than one per turn, you might as well have card draw to ensure you hit your land per turn as well as get other goodies. For ramp, I've found rocks to be decent support in Chainer. I do also run big mana effects like Crypt Ghast. That's one you might want redundancy for such as Caged Sun (I use Nirkana Revenant instead, but it's pricey and was harder to find).
Infernal Tribute is a good inclusion. Claws of Gix is a similar sort of insurance policy for getting rid of a permanent that's become a liability (which Necropotence can sometimes become).
Sadistic Hypnotist, while a free sac outlet, has restricted timing on its activation, so I use other discards effects like Mindslicer, which makes a good rattlesnake.
Altar of Dementia is not wrong to want. If there are big creatures in graveyards it can be an alternate wincon on its own or a way to dig in your own library for an answer.
Expedition Map is a fine inclusion for now. You don't have much in the way of tutors and Coffers is important to find.
Some cards I run and my results with them:
Noxious Gearhulk has been ridiculous. I probably use this guy too often, but it easily offsets the life cost of Chainer's activated ability while controlling the board.
Some sort of graveyardhate can actually be important if you're facing off against another reanimation deck. Except Meren and the like. I had a game where myself and two friends put commander cards facedown and each chose a random one of the opponent to the right. The result was Chainer (me) vs Meren vs The Mimeoplasm. It did not go well for them.
Fallen Ideal has actually been a really handy free sac outlet. It returns to hand more often than not, and is often pretty useful just on Chainer himself.
Homeward Path is useful partially for meta reasons and partially for the occasional interesting politics/shenanigans with Chainer's first and third abilities. "Here, have this back, but it's a Nightmare and I can exile it."
Thanks for the input, there's some really good feedback here.
However, when I did run Sol Ring, a turn 1 Myriad Landscape followed by turn 2 Sol Ring happened more than once and can easily mean the game. Smile
This is what Armillary Sphere should be. I only have the one copy, but blue Braids doesn't need it as much as Chainer does. If he doesn't get going early, he's done in.
Regarding the comments on redundancy, there's an equilibrium to be struck between complementary effects, backups for important effects, and still having a wide assortment of answers. For example, the list I based mine off of ran Strands of Night, but because I'm trying to not depend on looping ETB effects as much I replaced it with Phyrexian Reclamation as an effect that is complementary to Chainer's -- as it does something slightly different -- rather than a backup. I have more options if they're both on the field. But that's my approach.
I get this, there's good reasoning there. If you have multiple iterations of the same effect happening across the board, it's a lot easier to stop. I have to admit, I have a lot of reanimator variants tied up in a Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck that I could use - I've been tossing up whether to take it apart or not recently, as I don't play it often. It seems a rash decision though, not one I'd make lightly. It would free up Oversold Cemetery and a couple of other tasty pieces.
Songs of the Damned really depends on how many creatures you end up with in your graveyard typically. It usually wouldn't be much more than a Dark Ritual or two for me. Instead I'm trying out Bubbling Muck.
I'm happy to have used the slot for something else with no direct replacement for now. I have Crypt Ghast, Cabal Coffers, Magus of the same, if that doesn't cut it for big mana, a temporary doubler won't cut it.
Infernal Tribute is a good inclusion. Claws of Gix is a similar sort of insurance policy for getting rid of a permanent that's become a liability (which Necropotence can sometimes become).
This was the exact scenario I saw Infernal Tribute being a solution for.
Noxious Gearhulk has been ridiculous. I probably use this guy too often, but it easily offsets the life cost of Chainer's activated ability while controlling the board.
I'd really like a copy for this deck. The only other big want I have from latest releases is Razaketh, the Foulblooded.
Graveborn Muse is Phyrexian Arena #3.
It's currently in Gisa and Geralf. Having said that, the thickness of zombies in that deck is probably a bit much draw, it could get out of hand and lose the game for me as easily as win it. I could see it porting over.
I really like the idea of Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed but even the Judge promo is way outside of my budget. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is cool too, I just don't know where to find a copy. I've been looking for it for a long time.
I intend to Skullclamp the hell out of this deck, and I see no reason not to add Fallen Ideal, it's nice tech. Black counterspells are good times too, I just don't have a copy of Withering Boon. I do have an Imp's Mischief lying around somewhere though. Buried Ruin[c/] and Terrain Generator could be good too, it's just a matter of tracking copies down.
By the way, the main reason that Phyrexian Reclamation is my only backup creature reanimation is because it gets around things like Grafdigger's Cage where Strand of Night does not. Almost forgot that was the reason.
I recently got a copy of Razaketh. He's awesome. I just have to decide whether he's going in Chainer or Daxos.
Always good to have a plan B. Putting all eggs in one basket is asking for your deck to be shut down.
Good to hear he's worth the investment, and surprisingly less expensive than I'd anticipated. He looks like a shoe in here. It honestly seems like you could end the game within a few turns of him hitting the field.
In: Noxious Gearhulk - There's a good chance Sydri could miss this. But it is a very good add here. Graveborn Muse - More reasonable, steady draw here than in G&G, where it was a shotgun blast to my own face. Corpse Connoisseur - Repeatable grave filler. Skullclamp - Things are dying, why not?
After months of not actually playing it, I took apart Meren of Clan Nel Toth last night. Her remnants will live on in other builds, but as it was just another reanimator deck and I have at least 3 dedicated decks, she was not something I really enjoyed playing. Therefore, Chainer had a couple of small upgrades.
Chainer also got some sweet full art BFZ bling. Not the full land base, but pretty close. I've yet to go right through the deck I pulled apart, so there may be more to add, but at this point the two land adds were shoe ins.
Those are both really good adds. I don't have a copy of either at present, but would definitely consider either or both should I manage to track them down.
Okay, that one surprises me. I'd seen that one before but didn't like that it wasn't instant. I also considered Plunge into Darkness for the lifegain. Let us know how it turns out!
I'd recommend for you to to swap Extractor Demon for Nirkana Revenant. The mana doubling redundancy on creatures is amazing for chainer. I'd also proably think about cutting Temple of the False Gods and Reliquary Tower - personally I never found Reliquary tower to be amazing for Chainer because the discard can be useful for dumping creatures in the grave and the colorless mana will always be annoying to see. If financially possible, run 4 fetch lands and replace 4 swamps. Strip Mine for Ghost Quarter as we don't want a card disadvantage land.
Nice list. I agree on Temple and Reliquary Tower. Right now I'm testing with less doublers (just Crypt Ghast and Bubbling Muck) to see how capable it still is. Budget constraints have been mentioned in this thread, so that's probably way there's no Nirkana or fetches.
Bubbling Muck is very nice High Tide effect that scales at every point of the game, however, I think it's better suited in a MonoBlack Control styled archetype. Something like MonoBlack XiaHou Dun Stax where you can abuse card recursion via Xiahou Dun, The One-eyed+Nim Deathmantle loops. So with this in mind, I believe creature/artifact doublers are valued higher compared to instant / sorceries for Chainer.
Outside of scenarios where you're playing stuff like Mesmeric Orb, stuff like Songs of the Damned gain higher value in those lists.
I agree the permanent doublers are valuable — and that's probably true of most EDH decks that permanent-based solutions are better than one-off instant/sorcery solutions.
I just don't feel like my meta is of a power level where I need to be able to spam Chainer's ability that much. Stax would absolutely crush them, so I don't go that route. So this is an experiment to see if I just need that occasional turn with a +50% burst (assuming CG is in play).
XHD can also recur a black card and himself with Rings, albeit at a slightly higher cost than with Nim Deathmantle (4B vs 4 per iteration). I have a couple self-sufficient loops for XHD that allow me to pull every black card back to my hand for 2 each. Actually, one of them is already self-sufficient in doing that for free, and the other just needs Pawn of Ulamog to do it for free. I have considered switching the commander to XHD because he's so cool.
When I was making changes last week, Mesmeric Orb and/or Mindcrank were among the very last consideration I ended up not including in favor of some experimental cards. One or both may yet see its way into my list.
Btw, toctheyounger77, Faceless Butcher (which someone suggested earlier as removal) can help abuse Corpse Connoisseur's Unearth and Whip of Erebos exile effects. Let Butcher's first ability resolve then sac it to bring back CC or whatever the Whip reanimated.
Thanks for the input, and that's a very nice list.
Feedback on feedback:
I'd recommend for you to to swap Extractor Demon for Nirkana Revenant
Definitely something I can't afford. As awesome as it would be, not in the budget whatsoever. Further to this...
If financially possible, run 4 fetch lands and replace 4 swamps. Strip Mine for Ghost Quarter as we don't want a card disadvantage land.
Also not financially possible.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Deserted Temple, Phyrexian Tower, are the best colorless utility lands in my opinion. I also run Cavern of Souls as blue is fairly prevalent in my area, naming Humans. Counterspell protection for Chainer, Dementia Master, Xiahou Dun, The One-Eyed, Disciple of Bolas, Senguir Autocrat, and Zulaport Cutthroat is very nice.
While I agree with all of these adds, again not in the budget. Sorry to rain on the value parade, I'm not made of gold though.
Having said all of this, it's an interesting point to remove Reliquary Tower and Temple of the False God. I see the justification for both, and could easily see even a basic swamp being as valuable.
Btw, toctheyounger77, Faceless Butcher (which someone suggested earlier as removal) can help abuse Corpse Connoisseur's Unearth and Whip of Erebos exile effects. Let Butcher's first ability resolve then sac it to bring back CC or whatever the Whip reanimated.
Good spotting on that synergy - definitely want to grab a copy of Faceless Butcher, that's good value.
Having said all of this, it's an interesting point to remove Reliquary Tower and Temple of the False God. I see the justification for both, and could easily see even a basic swamp being as valuable.
You are right! I used to run Diamond Valley (a proxy version, I'm also not made of money ;P) and the amount of times I seen it in my opening hand/drawn was annoying enough to replace it with a Swamp. Temple of the False God is a good card, but monoblack doesn't have the ramp package to really utilize this. Temple is great in monogreen for something like Nissa, Vastwood Seer.
I also understand it's somewhat hypocritical to talk about utility lands such as Nykthos, Strip Mine, Bosiju as they are colorless sources, however, I think their abilities offset this negative. Worst case scenario I can just tutor/expedition map for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Good call on this. I have one coming free too, as I'm taking Kozilek, Butcher of Truth apart. My main play partner is my wife and she hates the deck. So at least I'll have some sweet trade value coming into Iconic Masters, and potentially some good stuff to add in here.
Also to do silly stuff, just to mark it off the bucket list. Like aiming a Ghost Quarter at your own Darksteel Citadel and copying it with Rings of Brighthearth to ramp basics. Then, as above, replaying GQ and doing it again.
Oh yeah, since I mentioned Faceless Butcher: while the Oblivion Ring-style triggers can be used in various ways (including saving a creature to survive after a board wipe), you pretty much can't do anything with Chainer except flicker him. If you can sac FB in response to Chainer's trigger, you get to keep it, otherwise it'll be lost to exile. One way to fizzle targeted removal, though.
Oh yeah, since I mentioned Faceless Butcher: while the Oblivion Ring-style triggers can be used in various ways (including saving a creature to survive after a board wipe), you pretty much can't do anything with Chainer except flicker him. If you can sac FB in response to Chainer's trigger, you get to keep it, otherwise it'll be lost to exile. One way to fizzle targeted removal, though.
Good to have a clear idea of how this works, thanks!
At the moment I don't run Sol Ring in anything nor do I run Koko and/or Gary in my Chainer deck, but that just has to do with deckbuilding and piloting challenges I've set for myself. For example, one challenge is to win by combat rather than through leeching effects like the above two or Exsanguinate-style or Falkenrath Noble-style effects.
However, when I did run Sol Ring, a turn 1 Myriad Landscape followed by turn 2 Sol Ring happened more than once and can easily mean the game.
Regarding the comments on redundancy, there's an equilibrium to be struck between complementary effects, backups for important effects, and still having a wide assortment of answers. For example, the list I based mine off of ran Strands of Night, but because I'm trying to not depend on looping ETB effects as much I replaced it with Phyrexian Reclamation as an effect that is complementary to Chainer's -- as it does something slightly different -- rather than a backup. I have more options if they're both on the field. But that's my approach.
Some other card-specific commentary (that you've speculated on, added, or removed):
Some cards I run and my results with them:
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
This is what Armillary Sphere should be. I only have the one copy, but blue Braids doesn't need it as much as Chainer does. If he doesn't get going early, he's done in.
I get this, there's good reasoning there. If you have multiple iterations of the same effect happening across the board, it's a lot easier to stop. I have to admit, I have a lot of reanimator variants tied up in a Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck that I could use - I've been tossing up whether to take it apart or not recently, as I don't play it often. It seems a rash decision though, not one I'd make lightly. It would free up Oversold Cemetery and a couple of other tasty pieces.
I'm happy to have used the slot for something else with no direct replacement for now. I have Crypt Ghast, Cabal Coffers, Magus of the same, if that doesn't cut it for big mana, a temporary doubler won't cut it.
This was the exact scenario I saw Infernal Tribute being a solution for.
I'd really like a copy for this deck. The only other big want I have from latest releases is Razaketh, the Foulblooded.
It's currently in Gisa and Geralf. Having said that, the thickness of zombies in that deck is probably a bit much draw, it could get out of hand and lose the game for me as easily as win it. I could see it porting over.
I really like the idea of Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed but even the Judge promo is way outside of my budget. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is cool too, I just don't know where to find a copy. I've been looking for it for a long time.
I intend to Skullclamp the hell out of this deck, and I see no reason not to add Fallen Ideal, it's nice tech. Black counterspells are good times too, I just don't have a copy of Withering Boon. I do have an Imp's Mischief lying around somewhere though. Buried Ruin[c/] and Terrain Generator could be good too, it's just a matter of tracking copies down.
Thanks again for the feedback!
I recently got a copy of Razaketh. He's awesome. I just have to decide whether he's going in Chainer or Daxos.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Good to hear he's worth the investment, and surprisingly less expensive than I'd anticipated. He looks like a shoe in here. It honestly seems like you could end the game within a few turns of him hitting the field.
In:
Noxious Gearhulk - There's a good chance Sydri could miss this. But it is a very good add here.
Graveborn Muse - More reasonable, steady draw here than in G&G, where it was a shotgun blast to my own face.
Corpse Connoisseur - Repeatable grave filler.
Skullclamp - Things are dying, why not?
Out:
Armillary Sphere
Filth
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Whip of Erebos
Seems a mighty good upgrade to me.
After months of not actually playing it, I took apart Meren of Clan Nel Toth last night. Her remnants will live on in other builds, but as it was just another reanimator deck and I have at least 3 dedicated decks, she was not something I really enjoyed playing. Therefore, Chainer had a couple of small upgrades.
In:
High Market
Crypt of Agadeem
Out:
2 Swamp
Chainer also got some sweet full art BFZ bling. Not the full land base, but pretty close. I've yet to go right through the deck I pulled apart, so there may be more to add, but at this point the two land adds were shoe ins.
In:
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Liliana of the Dark Realms
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Out:
Miasmic Mummy
Shadows of the Past
Skirsdag High Priest
In:
Reprocess
Out:
Profane Command
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/marquees-de-chainer-sadism-101/
I'd recommend for you to to swap Extractor Demon for Nirkana Revenant. The mana doubling redundancy on creatures is amazing for chainer. I'd also proably think about cutting Temple of the False Gods and Reliquary Tower - personally I never found Reliquary tower to be amazing for Chainer because the discard can be useful for dumping creatures in the grave and the colorless mana will always be annoying to see. If financially possible, run 4 fetch lands and replace 4 swamps. Strip Mine for Ghost Quarter as we don't want a card disadvantage land.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Deserted Temple, Phyrexian Tower, are the best colorless utility lands in my opinion. I also run Cavern of Souls as blue is fairly prevalent in my area, naming Humans. Counterspell protection for Chainer, Dementia Master, Xiahou Dun, The One-Eyed, Disciple of Bolas, Senguir Autocrat, and Zulaport Cutthroat is very nice.
I'm testing out Misinformation and Head Games in my list because the first does fun things with Gonti and the latter does fun things with Mindslicer or Sadistic Hypnotist.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Outside of scenarios where you're playing stuff like Mesmeric Orb, stuff like Songs of the Damned gain higher value in those lists.
I just don't feel like my meta is of a power level where I need to be able to spam Chainer's ability that much. Stax would absolutely crush them, so I don't go that route. So this is an experiment to see if I just need that occasional turn with a +50% burst (assuming CG is in play).
XHD can also recur a black card and himself with Rings, albeit at a slightly higher cost than with Nim Deathmantle (4B vs 4 per iteration). I have a couple self-sufficient loops for XHD that allow me to pull every black card back to my hand for 2 each. Actually, one of them is already self-sufficient in doing that for free, and the other just needs Pawn of Ulamog to do it for free. I have considered switching the commander to XHD because he's so cool.
When I was making changes last week, Mesmeric Orb and/or Mindcrank were among the very last consideration I ended up not including in favor of some experimental cards. One or both may yet see its way into my list.
Btw, toctheyounger77, Faceless Butcher (which someone suggested earlier as removal) can help abuse Corpse Connoisseur's Unearth and Whip of Erebos exile effects. Let Butcher's first ability resolve then sac it to bring back CC or whatever the Whip reanimated.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Feedback on feedback:
Definitely something I can't afford. As awesome as it would be, not in the budget whatsoever. Further to this... Also not financially possible.
While I agree with all of these adds, again not in the budget. Sorry to rain on the value parade, I'm not made of gold though.
Having said all of this, it's an interesting point to remove Reliquary Tower and Temple of the False God. I see the justification for both, and could easily see even a basic swamp being as valuable.
Good spotting on that synergy - definitely want to grab a copy of Faceless Butcher, that's good value.
You are right! I used to run Diamond Valley (a proxy version, I'm also not made of money ;P) and the amount of times I seen it in my opening hand/drawn was annoying enough to replace it with a Swamp. Temple of the False God is a good card, but monoblack doesn't have the ramp package to really utilize this. Temple is great in monogreen for something like Nissa, Vastwood Seer.
I also understand it's somewhat hypocritical to talk about utility lands such as Nykthos, Strip Mine, Bosiju as they are colorless sources, however, I think their abilities offset this negative. Worst case scenario I can just tutor/expedition map for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
(That's also what Infernal Tribute is for.)
I love when someone aims any removal other than Krosan Grip at it (Necro).
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Also to do silly stuff, just to mark it off the bucket list. Like aiming a Ghost Quarter at your own Darksteel Citadel and copying it with Rings of Brighthearth to ramp basics. Then, as above, replaying GQ and doing it again.
Oh yeah, since I mentioned Faceless Butcher: while the Oblivion Ring-style triggers can be used in various ways (including saving a creature to survive after a board wipe), you pretty much can't do anything with Chainer except flicker him. If you can sac FB in response to Chainer's trigger, you get to keep it, otherwise it'll be lost to exile. One way to fizzle targeted removal, though.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Good to have a clear idea of how this works, thanks!
In:
Claws of Gix
Spine of Ish Sah
Phyrexia's Core
Darksteel Citadel
Out:
Thief of Blood
Victimize
Reliquary Tower
Temple of the False God
Honestly, not terribly sure about the two land adds, but at least the core has synergy with the spine.