Ixalan has brought to bear many new interesting cards, and while its impact is strongly felt in other decks, I have determined that the only card worth playing with is Growing Rites for Momir Vig. As such, I will be cutting Nissa, Steward of Elements for it. The explanation will be found on the front page in the Change Log section.
I would just like to say that I absolutely love your primer. Momir Vig was my very first commander back in 2012 and I have always wanted to make the deck streamlined and more competitive.
I love your in-depth breakdowns of strategies and your constant updates, so please keep up the amazing work!
Just created an account to comment that this primer has given me a lot of inspiration for my own Momir deck. Fantastic work. I hope to see further edits in the future!
I would just like to say that I absolutely love your primer. Momir Vig was my very first commander back in 2012 and I have always wanted to make the deck streamlined and more competitive.
I love your in-depth breakdowns of strategies and your constant updates, so please keep up the amazing work!
Thank you very much! It means a lot to me that you love my primer. Vig was my first commander too, and he has stuck with me ever since. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask!
Just created an account to comment that this primer has given me a lot of inspiration for my own Momir deck. Fantastic work. I hope to see further edits in the future!
It's good that my work has inspired others to try out the same! Thank you! I will be keeping this primer up to date with all new cards, evaluating what goes in, and what doesn't make the cut. Please stay tuned! While the next months will be a little quiet (as things usually are in Magic in the October-January dry months with no new products) I am looking forward to RIX to see if they decided to print any new powerful UG Merfolk this deck can fully utilize.
A recent post on the r/competitiveEDH subreddit brought up the discussion of Summer Bloom as a contender in competitive UG and BG decks. It's an interesting card, and I will post some of the thoughts I had on the subreddit here. My post can be found copied below:
I run a T2 competitive deck (Momir Vig) that wins by generating infinite mana with cards like Palinchron or Cloud of Faeries. Naturally to do that, you need a certain number of lands to actually go off. I've taken cards like Azusa and Oracle out of the deck because they weren't quite good enough.
Creatures tend to be more valuable than noncreatures in this kind of UG deck. I can tutor for them with my commander, whereas I have to get lucky to draw noncreatures. I understand that Azusa is a much different card from Summer Bloom (+1 CMC, -1 land drop) but it is a creature (can be tutored for), and it does last for more than one turn. Is there a reason why Summer Bloom would be better than Azusa in a case like mine? That's the question that comes to mind in discussing this card.
I'd be willing to try Summer Bloom out, but I'm not entirely sure of its usefulness at the onset.
I think the idea intrigues me, and I will be looking forward to testing with it.
On the topic of cards I am testing with, it terms of Negate, I keep finding it difficult to replace anything in the deck with it. While it is a very good counterspell, I am not sure that it is necessarily better than any other counterspell I currently run. Additionally, I am concerned that adding yet another counterspell to the whole mix creates additional problems. Having too many counters is not an ideal situation be in. As I already run a relatively high amount, and 10+ if you count creatures and conditional counters, Negate may be just a little too much. While I won't keep it off the table, I do not think it will currently be in active consideration.
My meta has become filled stax decks, so my current deck (Jeleva storm) is no longer as viable. I've been looking for a second deck to combat this, and I'm wondering some things about your momir list.
How well does this deck hold up against multiple stax decks? My thoughts are if I shift into a little more elfball, I can bypass winter orbs and MLD, I'm a creature deck so ruiric thar / thalia don't affect me, and since they are mostly creature-based decks, they don't really have board wipes.
What is the viability of / how do you feel about Tidespout Tyrant combos? Just curious, as being a creature means easy access via tutors.
A card that I would strongly recommend you consider is Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. Yisan is already a top-tier cEDH deck, because of how consistent he is, and I think that sliding him into Momir Vig absolutely makes sense. Your deck already plays a strong control element via Seedborn Muse, and Yisan allows you to tutor into win conditions really easily (CMC = 4 Temur Sabertooth, CMC 5 = Peregrine Drake, CMC = 6 Deadeye Navigator, CMC 7 = Palinchron). Yisan allows you to conserve cards in your hand, so that you can maintain a solid control game, and works at instant speed. Resolving his ability and finding Seedborn Muse is pretty much game over. He also puts creatures directly into play so that you can get immediate value out of any ETB creatures at each CMC level that you have.
I've deliberately built my Momir Vig (pretty much an adaptation of my Yisan list) to build on the CMC chain for both Birthing Pod and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard and they've been great cards in my testing. Adding blue has helped increase the consistency of the deck, provided a more viable way to close the game definitively, and opened up more removal options that I was sorely needing. Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation alone have been worth it.
@Riley Panharmonicon is hard to justify for this deck. It's an artifact, which has disynergy with the commander, has become a huge EDH target in my experience, and is a do-nothing card for the turn-cycle you cast it. The payoff is usually incredible, though, so if you can protect it effectively than it should be ok. I personally am only running 4 counterspells in my Momir Vig deck, so I can't protect pieces very effectively so I personally wouldn't play it in my list.
My meta has become filled stax decks, so my current deck (Jeleva storm) is no longer as viable. I've been looking for a second deck to combat this, and I'm wondering some things about your momir list.
How well does this deck hold up against multiple stax decks? My thoughts are if I shift into a little more elfball, I can bypass winter orbs and MLD, I'm a creature deck so ruiric thar / thalia don't affect me, and since they are mostly creature-based decks, they don't really have board wipes.
What is the viability of / how do you feel about Tidespout Tyrant combos? Just curious, as being a creature means easy access via tutors.
I'll try to answer your questions one at a time. Starting with the stax lists, ultimately it depends on what kind of lists you're playing against, and how many of them are playing at any given time. In my current meta, I play against a Stax deck that abuses the graveyard and artifacts, as well as MLD. Because of this, I have taken to playing cards such as Manglehorn and Tajuru Preserver (the former slows him down and blows up an artifact, the latter prevents his land sacrifice effects from affecting me). While I do currently play with these in the mainboard, I do not run them in the main "Default List" (which I will update after replying to these comments). I am likewise playing with Unravel the Aether, though this may soon come out in favor of Null Rod if I feel I need it badly enough.
In short, you are going to want to play a few more mana dorks to get around the land tapping effects. I have recently swapped in Birds of Paradise to test with over Ramunap Excavator, and am considering other mana dorks as well. I do not plan on going full elfball, but you do need some kind of additional support aside from lands to stabilize yourself before you can go off properly. My best recommendation to you is to either make your deck faster, or make it more resilient by playing more hate cards/dedicated counterspells. If there are enough artifact-based decks in your meta, running a card like Annul is not the worst idea.
What is the viability of / how do you feel about Tidespout Tyrant combos? Just curious, as being a creature means easy access via tutors.
In this deck, Venser, Shaper Savant plays the same role that Tidespout Tyrant plays in other decks. The point is to use your infinite mana to abuse Venser's ability to bounce all of your opponents' permanents. Tyrant does the same thing, but does not come with a situational counterspell mode like Venser does, and costs double the mana (CMC 8 instead of CMC 4). Overally while a neat card, it takes too much work to make him go off, and he is an otherwise dead card. I would not play him in this deck.
Thanks for the suggestion! If you check my Change Log, you will see I actually used to run Yisan in this deck! In fact I once had a killer starting hand that landed me a Yisan T1, Seedborn Muse T2 with counterspell backup + 2G to activate Yisan every turn. It was an amazing hand
However I eventually ended up cutting Yisan. On the whole he is not fast enough for this deck. While his ability can often be abused, and while he is very useful with either Seedborn Muse or Training Grounds on the field, the vast majority of the time he was usually a dead card. The issue I ran into him was that when I cast him early and untapped with him, I was often left with the choice "Do I activate Yisan for 2G, or do I spend that on casting things in my hand and developing my board?" Most of the time, Yisan simply sat there and didn't do anything. So overall, while he's exceedingly good as a commander, I wouldn't run him in this 99. The same logic can be applied to Momir Vig himself. Superb as a commander, less so in the 99.
Also, my deck no longer runs cards like Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator. While I do have copies in my sideboard as backups to get with my Living Wish, they are ultimately too slow and bulky for the deck to be useful. But I'm glad Yisan has been working for you!
Benjameenbear is correct in his answer. It is a little too slow for this deck, and can't be fetched. The reason I only run six artifacts in total is because they can't be reliably cast every game, because I can't easily tutor for them in this creature-based deck. So they need to be good enough to justify being topdecks in most situations. Mana rocks go without saying. Birthing Pod is an amazing payoff.
Recent meta developments have caused my deck to undergo some changes! Given this, I will now be maintaining two lists for my deck! One list will be the Master List, which will be the list most people should be looking to when viewing this primer. The Change Log, card descriptions, and everything else will be matched to the Master List.
The "In-Use List" will be the list that I am personally playing at this given time. This list will reflect meta calls and cards I am testing with. I am currently testing with the following cards:
In short, these changes mostly reflect meta calls. There are lots of artifact decks, Stax, and very few blue decks in my meta. Summer Bloom and Birds of Paradise are two cards I am testing with. And yes, I am going pretty deep with the cards I am considering (Steel Sabotage anyone?). But paying a single U for such a large tempo advantage can be really useful.
I'm curious as to what type of artifact decks you're facing that requires so much artifact removal. Are you going up against Teferi or something?
Daretti, Scrap Savant Stax. The deck specializes in using and recurring artifacts again and again, and using MLD to grind the game to a halt in their favor. They continue to get value out of the game with their commander. The other artifact-heavy deck is a Breya combo deck. I would consider playing Phyrexian Revoker if it had more widespread applicability in the meta here, but needless to say there are problems with artifacts. Right now I swapped out Unravel the Aether for Hurkyl's Recall, and so far I've been pretty satisfied with it. After an opponent casts a Scrap Mastery, it's easy to completely set them back with a timely Recall and then win the game from there.
I've added an updated section on "Cards on my Radar." It now primarily features my "In-Use List." This list is the list I am currently playing personally, which is somewhat separate from my Master List. Given the prolific presence of artifact-based strategies in my meta, coupled with the lack of blue-based strategies, I have come to rely more heavily on artifact hate. To that end, I have taken out counterspells and some protection against blue, in favor of more artifact hate cards. The list will continuously be updated with cards I am testing, as well as cards I am currently running.
Happy new year everyone! I will update this thread once RIX is fully spoiled with all potential cards that come under consideration, rather than making a new post every time a new card is spoiled. Here's hoping the UG flip enchantment will be good for this deck! Personally I think it needs to read "Tap: Untap all creatures and other lands you control. Creatures you cast this turn have flash." But then I could be hoping for a little too much.
After reviewing the full spoilers, there will be no new cards from RIX for this deck, which is honestly a bit of a shame. I always hope for at least one nice card to put in the deck, and I was hopeful that there may be at least one UG Merfolk that isn't entirely based on synergy with other Merfolk. Here's hoping Dominaria brings us new interesting things later in the year!
On the Tappedout page, I was recently asked if Time Spiral is a good replacement for Timetwister. I did respond with Yes, but I will give a more complete explanation here and update the main post with it.
Time Spiral offers a different kind of flexibility to Timetwister, in that it untaps 6 of your lands and refills your hand. This allows you to make full use of the turn, essentially giving yourself what amounts to an extra turn.. In one sense, you are essentially paying 2U for a Timetwister, and 2U for a Time Walk.
Time Spiral also synergizes very well with High Tide, provided you have even just one Island. Being able to tap for more mana after untapping six lands will better ensure you the win as you untap and refill.
One caution with this card is that it does in fact cost double the amount of mana needed for Timetwister. In tight situations, you may need to cast Twister with less mana open, and Time Spiral doesn't allow you to do that.
More critically, Timetwister offers the unique advantage of not self-exiling. The only other Twister effect that I know of that offers this advantage is Diminishing Returns, which is a really bad card. Often it is critical to refill your hand (or re-shuffle your grave back into your deck) and being able to either Snapcaster Mage or Eternal Witness the Timetwister and cast it again is very advantageous. Time Spiral is a one-time use card, so when you do use it, make sure you either use it as a last resort to get out of a tight spot, or to win the game!
You can get value obviously from just bouncing things like Shardless Agent, Coiling Oracle, etc, when you don't have the combo. Also if you don't have the lands that generate more than 1 mana, then you can still do infinite ETB triggers with Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries, which will allow for a number of looks and potential draws from top of deck, although you obviously can't manipulate it being as they are both blue.
Came here after your post in the Uncage the Menagerie discussion, obviously being able to spend GG2 to get Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries made me think of Cloudstone Curio. I know anything that is not a creature needs to be premium, but I think this has a real shot at putting your deck over-the-top when it comes to cheap combos.
The other lands I can think of in Simic colors which provide more than 1 mana are: Teferi's Isle, Lotus Vale, Jungle Basin, Coral Atoll. The coming into play tapped of these doesn't matter if you play them in the combo turn, as long as you have the initial 1U for the Cloud of Faeries.
I actually think that Trinket Mage and Expedition Map are excellent cards on their own in this deck. Trinket Mage can set you up with Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Sensei's Divining Top, naturally and Expedition Map is a superb additional land tutor.
You can get value obviously from just bouncing things like Shardless Agent, Coiling Oracle, etc, when you don't have the combo. Also if you don't have the lands that generate more than 1 mana, then you can still do infinite ETB triggers with Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries, which will allow for a number of looks and potential draws from top of deck, although you obviously can't manipulate it being as they are both blue.
Came here after your post in the Uncage the Menagerie discussion, obviously being able to spend GG2 to get Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries made me think of Cloudstone Curio. I know anything that is not a creature needs to be premium, but I think this has a real shot at putting your deck over-the-top when it comes to cheap combos.
The other lands I can think of in Simic colors which provide more than 1 mana are: Teferi's Isle, Lotus Vale, Jungle Basin, Coral Atoll. The coming into play tapped of these doesn't matter if you play them in the combo turn, as long as you have the initial 1U for the Cloud of Faeries.
Hey darren, thanks for the comments! So I've actually tried Cloudstone Curio in the past, but never got many opportunities to play with it. I've kept a spare copy because I've always thought about putting it back in, but was never sure about its usefulness. I always looked at the card as a combo piece, and I was hesitant to play a non-creature combo piece, because it's more difficult to tutor for it. I think I may try to find a slot for it in the deck again, and try to use it as just a pure value card, which sometimes helps me go off.
I am a little hesitant to play the other lands you mention, as I don't like having them ETB tapped. While that's less important when you have Cloud of Faeries in hand, it creatures an issue when you are trying to play other cards to stay at an advantage over others. I think the only two lands in my deck that ETB tapped are Tolaria West, and Path of Ancestry, both of which have other significant upsides. Likewise, I saw your recommended line of play, and I thank you for that suggestion! However, I am a little cautious about running a game plan that takes so many steps to pull off. The more steps involved, the more opportunities exist for people to interfere with the combo.
I will be sure to try and find a spot for Curio and see if I can try to turn it into a value card, sort of like Pod currently is. Thank you again!
Currently I am testing with a number of new cards that I hope to make permanent additions to the deck. Namely, Cloudstone Curio and Genesis Chamber.
Cloudstone Curio (CC) is a high-value card that allows me to more easily assemble an infinite mana loop, by bouncing the Palinchron/Cloud of Faeries back to my hand after untapping lands when I have another creature. With a CMC 2 creature, I need only 10 mana from 7 lands to make Palinchron go infinite, as opposed to the usual 12 to make him go infinite by himself. While this is the same amount as when bouncing Palinchron with Temur Sabertooth, it nonetheless offers an alternative if Sabertooth is somehow removed.
One of the critical weaknesses in the deck is the removal of Temur Sabertooth. Once that card is exiled, it is very difficult to effectively utilize any infinite mana combo. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image make infinite mana easy, but what do you do once your draw your deck? Without Sabertooth, you cannot bounce Venser repeatedly to bounce all of yours opponents' permanents. Cloudstone Curio makes this possible once again, and offers some redundancy.
CC also goes infinite with Aluren, Cloud of Faeries, and any other creature CMC <4. I am not going to look at it as a wincon piece, but rather as a high-value card.
The new spicy card I am trying out is Genesis Chamber. I will admit from the start that this is a very high-variance card; disregarding even the potential bonus to my opponents, sometimes the spare creatures generated by this card do absolutely nothing except serve as chump blockers. However, with either Earthcraft or Gaea's Cradle, or even CC, this card suddenly becomes deadly. Gen Chamber, CC, and Aluren, along with Coiling Oracle, allows me to draw my entire deck and put all my lands on the field, providing an immediate win on turn 4 (or sooner with ramp).
I am not sure how good this card will ultimately be, especially because it is not a creature, but I am willing to give it a try.
Now, as for DOM cards...
The newly spoiled Totyova, Benthic Druid! While this looks like a very fun card, I do not believe it will find a spot in this deck. Five mana is asking for a lot, and while this deck is indeed land based, it is not quite good enough. If Nissa, Vastwood Seer was still in the deck, this would likely replace it. I am willing to test with it to see how well it performs, but being five mana hurts quite a bit.
A friend kindly pointed out to me that Genesis Chamber does not actually trigger Cloudstone Curio. In my excitement, I forgot that the Myr are artifact creatures. So I guess I now own a foil of Genesis Chamber I don't need haha. It has been taken out of the deck, though I am still testing with Cloudstone Curio.
A while ago I got a private message from someone asking a few questions about my deck, and they have agreed to let me post them (and my answers) here! Get them below!
I read your Momir Vig Primer. First off it was awesome, secondly i was wondering a few things:
A. Can it be more budget friendly? your notes in the primer were helpful. Maybe more Mana Rocks? I wont be playing mox, mana crypt or anything like that.
B. My playgroups aren't super into comboing off, but I am. I just want to avoid those explosive turn 4-5 wins, without the table just mentally scooping when I play Momir. How Can that be achieved with out just trying to to combo until later? (does that make sense?)
C. Suggestions on various ways to win? Craterhoof comes to mind right away or other overrun effects. Something outside of going infinite? My playgroup, for some dumb reason, thinks going infinite is bad for "the fun" of the game.
A. Absolutely it can! As I say in the "budget options" section, I would caution the only absolutely critical $20+ card to have is Palinchron. If you can't afford the really expensive mana rocks, I would try to play Simic Signet, more mana dorks. More dorks like Fyndhorn Elves/Elvish Mystyic will help you ramp up faster, which means a faster game plan!
B. It's a tough call! Momir Vig is designed to be able to quickly get your combo pieces and win the game. But if you are looking to play a longer game, you can make the deck more controlling. You can play Deadeye Navigator to abuse its ability with Mystic Snake/Venser, Shaper Savant. You can also use Seedborn Muse to set yourself to untap each turn, and make your gameplay for your opponents very tough! Basically I would make Momir Vig more toolbox than the deck is now. Rather than just "set up to win" you can "set up to play control, and tutor for important creatures when you need their specific effects" and then win down the line.
C. While I try to be helpful with everyone's requests, I will say that I think purposefully doing away with infinite combos to make other people feel better is a bad idea. I can't decide what your group finds okay, but I think it would be better to say "Look I'm sorry, but if you don't like my infinite combos, just learn to play better cards that deal with them." My deck loses to Linvala, Keeper of Silence. It also loses to Pithing Needle, or Phyrexian Revoker. You can also stop me from winning with Torpor Orb. Or just play Path to Exile on Palinchron, or any kind of removal. Winning with this deck isn't 100% guaranteed. You should encourage your friends to play better cards, rather than let them force you to play worse strategies.
I personally don't like Craterhoof wins because Craterhoof is a dead card unless you have a big board and they don't have enough blockers to block them all. Plus he costs 8 mana, and so many times when I used to play with him, he would sit around in my hand doing nothing until it was time to win. This deck is very effective because every card here has been specifically tailored to always be useful.
If you really want to eschew infinite combos because of your playgroup, I would recommend doing that soft lock I mentioned above. Seedborn, Deadeye Navigator, and Venser, Shaper Savant/Mystic Snake. Counter their spells, bounce their permanents, and completely prevent them from playing Magic until they concede, or let you play with infinite combos
Good morning everyone! Today I will be bringing you the Battlebond update for this deck! We have a number of new interesting cards for consideration, so we will get right down to it!
Most important for our needs though, is that this card does go infinite with Palinchron when you are on just 7 lands (or X number of lands producing at least 7 mana). At 4 mana, being a 4/4 is a great body, despite the deck never attacking. It acts as a secondary Temur Sabertooth, which increases the deck's overall resiliency greatly (it doesn't get neutered if you lose the Sabertooth).
Secondly, we have Spellseeker! This card is exactly what this deck has been looking for for the longest time. The ability to tutor for non-creatures with creatures is an extraordinarily powerful effect. This card gets us any counterspell in the deck (save Force of Will), Crop Rotation, Nature's Claim, almost anything that we may need in any given situation. It is truly an amazing card, and will be a fantastic addition to the deck.
Finally, we have on more card that is currently a "maybe," and is currently being tested with. Pir's Whim is a card that provides great advantage, albeit at a steep cost. As this deck used to run Hour of Promise for 4G, this card may still end up working to my benefit. Testing is required to be sure of its usefulness!
That's about it for now! Thank you all for taking a look, and please feel free to ask any questions!
Hi! I'm new on the forum and I needed some help for a budget Momir Vig List I wanted to build. I really love the competitive one, but at a first sight it's simply too strong for my playgroup.
Note: We decided to start playing commander like two weeks ago, so I don't know yet which commanders my friends have chosen. Hence, I'd like to tweak my list to face a generic meta, then I'll adjust it when I'll know my friends' lists.
That said, what do you thing I should change from this list?
I'm not really sure about the PW. I have a feeling I could replace one of them (Kiora) or even both with something more useful.
I don't know which enchantments are the strongest for this deck (given it even needs enchantments at all). In particular, I think I could cut Hadana's Climb and Zendikar Resurgent, but I don't really know what could I use to replace them.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
I love your in-depth breakdowns of strategies and your constant updates, so please keep up the amazing work!
Thank you very much! It means a lot to me that you love my primer. Vig was my first commander too, and he has stuck with me ever since. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask!
It's good that my work has inspired others to try out the same! Thank you! I will be keeping this primer up to date with all new cards, evaluating what goes in, and what doesn't make the cut. Please stay tuned! While the next months will be a little quiet (as things usually are in Magic in the October-January dry months with no new products) I am looking forward to RIX to see if they decided to print any new powerful UG Merfolk this deck can fully utilize.
Thank you both again!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
I think the idea intrigues me, and I will be looking forward to testing with it.
On the topic of cards I am testing with, it terms of Negate, I keep finding it difficult to replace anything in the deck with it. While it is a very good counterspell, I am not sure that it is necessarily better than any other counterspell I currently run. Additionally, I am concerned that adding yet another counterspell to the whole mix creates additional problems. Having too many counters is not an ideal situation be in. As I already run a relatively high amount, and 10+ if you count creatures and conditional counters, Negate may be just a little too much. While I won't keep it off the table, I do not think it will currently be in active consideration.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
How well does this deck hold up against multiple stax decks? My thoughts are if I shift into a little more elfball, I can bypass winter orbs and MLD, I'm a creature deck so ruiric thar / thalia don't affect me, and since they are mostly creature-based decks, they don't really have board wipes.
What is the viability of / how do you feel about Tidespout Tyrant combos? Just curious, as being a creature means easy access via tutors.
I've deliberately built my Momir Vig (pretty much an adaptation of my Yisan list) to build on the CMC chain for both Birthing Pod and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard and they've been great cards in my testing. Adding blue has helped increase the consistency of the deck, provided a more viable way to close the game definitively, and opened up more removal options that I was sorely needing. Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation alone have been worth it.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Modern
URGTemur ScapeshiftGRU
EDH
WGKarametra EnchantressGW
UBGSidisi, Brood Tyrant ReanimatorGBU
UBRKess DoomsdayRBU
WBGGhave TokensGBW
WUBZur RebelsBUW
WUBErtai CursesBUW
WRFiresong and Sunspeaker Spell SlingerRW
Panharmonicon is hard to justify for this deck. It's an artifact, which has disynergy with the commander, has become a huge EDH target in my experience, and is a do-nothing card for the turn-cycle you cast it. The payoff is usually incredible, though, so if you can protect it effectively than it should be ok. I personally am only running 4 counterspells in my Momir Vig deck, so I can't protect pieces very effectively so I personally wouldn't play it in my list.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'll try to answer your questions one at a time. Starting with the stax lists, ultimately it depends on what kind of lists you're playing against, and how many of them are playing at any given time. In my current meta, I play against a Stax deck that abuses the graveyard and artifacts, as well as MLD. Because of this, I have taken to playing cards such as Manglehorn and Tajuru Preserver (the former slows him down and blows up an artifact, the latter prevents his land sacrifice effects from affecting me). While I do currently play with these in the mainboard, I do not run them in the main "Default List" (which I will update after replying to these comments). I am likewise playing with Unravel the Aether, though this may soon come out in favor of Null Rod if I feel I need it badly enough.
In short, you are going to want to play a few more mana dorks to get around the land tapping effects. I have recently swapped in Birds of Paradise to test with over Ramunap Excavator, and am considering other mana dorks as well. I do not plan on going full elfball, but you do need some kind of additional support aside from lands to stabilize yourself before you can go off properly. My best recommendation to you is to either make your deck faster, or make it more resilient by playing more hate cards/dedicated counterspells. If there are enough artifact-based decks in your meta, running a card like Annul is not the worst idea.
In this deck, Venser, Shaper Savant plays the same role that Tidespout Tyrant plays in other decks. The point is to use your infinite mana to abuse Venser's ability to bounce all of your opponents' permanents. Tyrant does the same thing, but does not come with a situational counterspell mode like Venser does, and costs double the mana (CMC 8 instead of CMC 4). Overally while a neat card, it takes too much work to make him go off, and he is an otherwise dead card. I would not play him in this deck.
Thanks for the suggestion! If you check my Change Log, you will see I actually used to run Yisan in this deck! In fact I once had a killer starting hand that landed me a Yisan T1, Seedborn Muse T2 with counterspell backup + 2G to activate Yisan every turn. It was an amazing hand
However I eventually ended up cutting Yisan. On the whole he is not fast enough for this deck. While his ability can often be abused, and while he is very useful with either Seedborn Muse or Training Grounds on the field, the vast majority of the time he was usually a dead card. The issue I ran into him was that when I cast him early and untapped with him, I was often left with the choice "Do I activate Yisan for 2G, or do I spend that on casting things in my hand and developing my board?" Most of the time, Yisan simply sat there and didn't do anything. So overall, while he's exceedingly good as a commander, I wouldn't run him in this 99. The same logic can be applied to Momir Vig himself. Superb as a commander, less so in the 99.
Also, my deck no longer runs cards like Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator. While I do have copies in my sideboard as backups to get with my Living Wish, they are ultimately too slow and bulky for the deck to be useful. But I'm glad Yisan has been working for you!
Benjameenbear is correct in his answer. It is a little too slow for this deck, and can't be fetched. The reason I only run six artifacts in total is because they can't be reliably cast every game, because I can't easily tutor for them in this creature-based deck. So they need to be good enough to justify being topdecks in most situations. Mana rocks go without saying. Birthing Pod is an amazing payoff.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
The "In-Use List" will be the list that I am personally playing at this given time. This list will reflect meta calls and cards I am testing with. I am currently testing with the following cards:
IN:
Birds of Paradise
Manglehorn
Unravel the Aether
Tajuru Preserver (into the main)
Summer Bloom
OUT:
Hour of Promise
Ramunap Excavator
Familiar's Ruse
Autumn's Veil
Carpet of Flowers
Other cards under consideration:
Trinket Mage
Tormod's Crypt (Mage target)
Sentinel Totem
Null Rod
Annul
Steel Sabotage
In short, these changes mostly reflect meta calls. There are lots of artifact decks, Stax, and very few blue decks in my meta. Summer Bloom and Birds of Paradise are two cards I am testing with. And yes, I am going pretty deep with the cards I am considering (Steel Sabotage anyone?). But paying a single U for such a large tempo advantage can be really useful.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
Time Spiral offers a different kind of flexibility to Timetwister, in that it untaps 6 of your lands and refills your hand. This allows you to make full use of the turn, essentially giving yourself what amounts to an extra turn.. In one sense, you are essentially paying 2U for a Timetwister, and 2U for a Time Walk.
Time Spiral also synergizes very well with High Tide, provided you have even just one Island. Being able to tap for more mana after untapping six lands will better ensure you the win as you untap and refill.
One caution with this card is that it does in fact cost double the amount of mana needed for Timetwister. In tight situations, you may need to cast Twister with less mana open, and Time Spiral doesn't allow you to do that.
More critically, Timetwister offers the unique advantage of not self-exiling. The only other Twister effect that I know of that offers this advantage is Diminishing Returns, which is a really bad card. Often it is critical to refill your hand (or re-shuffle your grave back into your deck) and being able to either Snapcaster Mage or Eternal Witness the Timetwister and cast it again is very advantageous. Time Spiral is a one-time use card, so when you do use it, make sure you either use it as a last resort to get out of a tight spot, or to win the game!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
If you have Gaea's Cradle, Simic Growth Chamber, or probably less likely to be turned on Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx you can use Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries for infinite mana. (Note Cloudstone Curio doesn't target, which is important for Phantasmal Image). It is also means that any creatures that you already played out can basically be used for the win. Bounce a green creature back to hand, play it to manipulate top deck any of the following: Thrasios, Triton Hero, Coiling Oracle, Genesis Hydra, Eternal Witness, Shardless Agent, and draw it (play out Cloud of Faeries again, etc) to win.
You can get value obviously from just bouncing things like Shardless Agent, Coiling Oracle, etc, when you don't have the combo. Also if you don't have the lands that generate more than 1 mana, then you can still do infinite ETB triggers with Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries, which will allow for a number of looks and potential draws from top of deck, although you obviously can't manipulate it being as they are both blue.
Came here after your post in the Uncage the Menagerie discussion, obviously being able to spend GG2 to get Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries made me think of Cloudstone Curio. I know anything that is not a creature needs to be premium, but I think this has a real shot at putting your deck over-the-top when it comes to cheap combos.
The other lands I can think of in Simic colors which provide more than 1 mana are: Teferi's Isle, Lotus Vale, Jungle Basin, Coral Atoll. The coming into play tapped of these doesn't matter if you play them in the combo turn, as long as you have the initial 1U for the Cloud of Faeries.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
If you were feeling frisky then you could Trophy Mage, Trinket Mage, Expedition Map. Then you can setup a win with Uncage the Menagerie.
Here is what you do:
Cast Uncage the Menagerie for GG3 getting Trophy Mage, Eternal Witness, Trinket Mage.
Cast Trinket Mage getting Expedition Map.
Cast Expedition Map and use it's ability to probably get Gaea's Cradle.
Cast Trophy Mage getting Cloudstone Curio.
Cast Eternal Witness getting back Uncage the Menagerie.
Cast Uncage the Menagerie for GG2 getting Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries.
Cast Cloudstone Curio, Phantasmal Image and Cloud of Faeries.
With infinite mana you can bounce the Eternal Witness to get Uncage the Menagerie.
However with Momir in play, Eternal Witness will allow you to top deck Thrasios, Triton Hero and draw it with Cloud of Faeries ftw anyway.
I actually think that Trinket Mage and Expedition Map are excellent cards on their own in this deck. Trinket Mage can set you up with Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Sensei's Divining Top, naturally and Expedition Map is a superb additional land tutor.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Hey darren, thanks for the comments! So I've actually tried Cloudstone Curio in the past, but never got many opportunities to play with it. I've kept a spare copy because I've always thought about putting it back in, but was never sure about its usefulness. I always looked at the card as a combo piece, and I was hesitant to play a non-creature combo piece, because it's more difficult to tutor for it. I think I may try to find a slot for it in the deck again, and try to use it as just a pure value card, which sometimes helps me go off.
I am a little hesitant to play the other lands you mention, as I don't like having them ETB tapped. While that's less important when you have Cloud of Faeries in hand, it creatures an issue when you are trying to play other cards to stay at an advantage over others. I think the only two lands in my deck that ETB tapped are Tolaria West, and Path of Ancestry, both of which have other significant upsides. Likewise, I saw your recommended line of play, and I thank you for that suggestion! However, I am a little cautious about running a game plan that takes so many steps to pull off. The more steps involved, the more opportunities exist for people to interfere with the combo.
I will be sure to try and find a spot for Curio and see if I can try to turn it into a value card, sort of like Pod currently is. Thank you again!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
Currently I am testing with a number of new cards that I hope to make permanent additions to the deck. Namely, Cloudstone Curio and Genesis Chamber.
Cloudstone Curio (CC) is a high-value card that allows me to more easily assemble an infinite mana loop, by bouncing the Palinchron/Cloud of Faeries back to my hand after untapping lands when I have another creature. With a CMC 2 creature, I need only 10 mana from 7 lands to make Palinchron go infinite, as opposed to the usual 12 to make him go infinite by himself. While this is the same amount as when bouncing Palinchron with Temur Sabertooth, it nonetheless offers an alternative if Sabertooth is somehow removed.
One of the critical weaknesses in the deck is the removal of Temur Sabertooth. Once that card is exiled, it is very difficult to effectively utilize any infinite mana combo. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image make infinite mana easy, but what do you do once your draw your deck? Without Sabertooth, you cannot bounce Venser repeatedly to bounce all of yours opponents' permanents. Cloudstone Curio makes this possible once again, and offers some redundancy.
CC also goes infinite with Aluren, Cloud of Faeries, and any other creature CMC <4. I am not going to look at it as a wincon piece, but rather as a high-value card.
The new spicy card I am trying out is Genesis Chamber. I will admit from the start that this is a very high-variance card; disregarding even the potential bonus to my opponents, sometimes the spare creatures generated by this card do absolutely nothing except serve as chump blockers. However, with either Earthcraft or Gaea's Cradle, or even CC, this card suddenly becomes deadly. Gen Chamber, CC, and Aluren, along with Coiling Oracle, allows me to draw my entire deck and put all my lands on the field, providing an immediate win on turn 4 (or sooner with ramp).
I am not sure how good this card will ultimately be, especially because it is not a creature, but I am willing to give it a try.
Now, as for DOM cards...
The newly spoiled Totyova, Benthic Druid! While this looks like a very fun card, I do not believe it will find a spot in this deck. Five mana is asking for a lot, and while this deck is indeed land based, it is not quite good enough. If Nissa, Vastwood Seer was still in the deck, this would likely replace it. I am willing to test with it to see how well it performs, but being five mana hurts quite a bit.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
A friend kindly pointed out to me that Genesis Chamber does not actually trigger Cloudstone Curio. In my excitement, I forgot that the Myr are artifact creatures. So I guess I now own a foil of Genesis Chamber I don't need haha. It has been taken out of the deck, though I am still testing with Cloudstone Curio.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
A. Absolutely it can! As I say in the "budget options" section, I would caution the only absolutely critical $20+ card to have is Palinchron. If you can't afford the really expensive mana rocks, I would try to play Simic Signet, more mana dorks. More dorks like Fyndhorn Elves/Elvish Mystyic will help you ramp up faster, which means a faster game plan!
B. It's a tough call! Momir Vig is designed to be able to quickly get your combo pieces and win the game. But if you are looking to play a longer game, you can make the deck more controlling. You can play Deadeye Navigator to abuse its ability with Mystic Snake/Venser, Shaper Savant. You can also use Seedborn Muse to set yourself to untap each turn, and make your gameplay for your opponents very tough! Basically I would make Momir Vig more toolbox than the deck is now. Rather than just "set up to win" you can "set up to play control, and tutor for important creatures when you need their specific effects" and then win down the line.
C. While I try to be helpful with everyone's requests, I will say that I think purposefully doing away with infinite combos to make other people feel better is a bad idea. I can't decide what your group finds okay, but I think it would be better to say "Look I'm sorry, but if you don't like my infinite combos, just learn to play better cards that deal with them." My deck loses to Linvala, Keeper of Silence. It also loses to Pithing Needle, or Phyrexian Revoker. You can also stop me from winning with Torpor Orb. Or just play Path to Exile on Palinchron, or any kind of removal. Winning with this deck isn't 100% guaranteed. You should encourage your friends to play better cards, rather than let them force you to play worse strategies.
I personally don't like Craterhoof wins because Craterhoof is a dead card unless you have a big board and they don't have enough blockers to block them all. Plus he costs 8 mana, and so many times when I used to play with him, he would sit around in my hand doing nothing until it was time to win. This deck is very effective because every card here has been specifically tailored to always be useful.
If you really want to eschew infinite combos because of your playgroup, I would recommend doing that soft lock I mentioned above. Seedborn, Deadeye Navigator, and Venser, Shaper Savant/Mystic Snake. Counter their spells, bounce their permanents, and completely prevent them from playing Magic until they concede, or let you play with infinite combos
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
First up, we have probably the most important new addition to the deck, Bramble Sovereign. This card does it all. It generates value for our smaller ETBs later in the game (think Coiling Oracle - but doubled!). It greatly benefits the Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, even Growing Rites of Itlimoc and its flip side! Earthcraft, and more narrowly, Chord of Calling and Cloudstone Curio are likewise benefited with these extra tokens.
Most important for our needs though, is that this card does go infinite with Palinchron when you are on just 7 lands (or X number of lands producing at least 7 mana). At 4 mana, being a 4/4 is a great body, despite the deck never attacking. It acts as a secondary Temur Sabertooth, which increases the deck's overall resiliency greatly (it doesn't get neutered if you lose the Sabertooth).
Secondly, we have Spellseeker! This card is exactly what this deck has been looking for for the longest time. The ability to tutor for non-creatures with creatures is an extraordinarily powerful effect. This card gets us any counterspell in the deck (save Force of Will), Crop Rotation, Nature's Claim, almost anything that we may need in any given situation. It is truly an amazing card, and will be a fantastic addition to the deck.
Finally, we have on more card that is currently a "maybe," and is currently being tested with. Pir's Whim is a card that provides great advantage, albeit at a steep cost. As this deck used to run Hour of Promise for 4G, this card may still end up working to my benefit. Testing is required to be sure of its usefulness!
That's about it for now! Thank you all for taking a look, and please feel free to ask any questions!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary Primer UG
Note: We decided to start playing commander like two weeks ago, so I don't know yet which commanders my friends have chosen. Hence, I'd like to tweak my list to face a generic meta, then I'll adjust it when I'll know my friends' lists.
That said, what do you thing I should change from this list?
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Duskwatch Recruiter Flip
1x Elvish Visionary
1x Gyre Sage
1x Kiora's Follower
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrasios, Triton Hero
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1x Somberwald Sage
1x Trygon Predator
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Weaver of Currents
1x Wood Elves
1x Bramble Sovereign
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Master Biomancer
1x Mystic Snake
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Stunt Double
1x Temur Sabertooth
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Vizier of the Menagerie
1x Acidic Slime
1x Murkfiend Liege
1x Peregrine Drake
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Bane of Progress
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
1x Progenitor Mimic
1x Palinchron
1x Blighted Woodland
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
1x Command Tower
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Flooded Grove
8x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
6x Island
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Lumbering Falls
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Novijen, Heart of Progress
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Simic Growth Chamber
1x Simic Guildgate
1x Temple of Mystery
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Thornwood Falls
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip
1x Hadana's Climb Flip
1x Rhystic Study
1x Zendikar Resurgent
1x Sol Ring
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Simic Signet
1x Cloudstone Curio
1x Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1x Birthing Pod
1x Paradox Engine
1x Beast Within
1x Chord of Calling
1x Krosan Grip
1x Voidslime
1x Plasm Capture
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Curse of the Swine
1x Uncage the Menagerie
1x Praetor's Counsel
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Going more into detail:
Of course remind that my list is not meant to be tournament competitive