Hey Dan, just wanted to say thanks for posting the primer. I just finished building this list, after watching you guys on Youtube I was sold on this instantly.
I saw a few comments up that people were questioning Remand, and you said you were worried about colors. Would Arcane Denial be a good hard counter at 2 mana that is only 1U, or is the opponent's draw too troublesome for you as a combo deck?
Also, the LabMen are absolutely fantastic. I have learned a lot from you guys, and it has improved my YouTube videos as well.
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Modern: Mono-U Tron, Skred
Legacy: ANT, Death and Taxes
EDH: Jori En, Ruin Diver Fast Combo
Pauper: Affinity
Any budget replacements? Can't exactly afford the Candelabra of Tawnos or Lion's Eye Diamond, but I love playing lists like this. If you could run through the expensive cards and suggest replacements that'd help a lot! Also, if the Bomberman package just flat out doesn't work without LED, what would you put in for the cards that become worse as the money cards are removed?
"If fetch lands are reprinted I really believe they will be in allied colors (aka Onslaught fetches). If the fetch lands are reprinted you better believe that we'll all be fetching up basics. This would lead me to believe that the set after THS may have a reprint as the temples can't be fetched but it's pure speculation." - posted 03/22/2014 proved correct during Khans spoiler season.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Hey Dan, just wanted to say thanks for posting the primer. I just finished building this list, after watching you guys on Youtube I was sold on this instantly.
Thank you so much! I hope you enjoy it! Please message me with how things are going for you with it, I'd love to hear what you see as over/underperformers in your meta.
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Any budget replacements? Can't exactly afford the Candelabra of Tawnos or Lion's Eye Diamond, but I love playing lists like this. If you could run through the expensive cards and suggest replacements that'd help a lot! Also, if the Bomberman package just flat out doesn't work without LED, what would you put in for the cards that become worse as the money cards are removed?
Candelabra isn't critical, but Lion's Eye Diamond is irreplaceable to the Bomberman kill, which is the strongest part of this deck, in my opinion. Candelabra can be less beneficially replaced with Magus of the Candelabra, or potentially by another card draw spell. Lion's Eye Diamond (and subsequently Auriok Salvagers) I would recommend replacing with more mana ramp, so that you can get to Ad Nauseam faster, which will be your best way to win. Eladamri's Call is also a card I would cut if you removed Bomberman.
I get it's cedh, but i gotta stop at 800 dollar cards.
Would you run Day's undoing over Timetwister if Timetwister was unavailable to you? Or would you replace it entirely with something else?
Day's ends your turn, its probably the worst thing you could run, when going for budget, focus on cards that are the best you can afford of any type, and not necessarily fill a similar role.
I get it's cedh, but i gotta stop at 800 dollar cards.
Would you run Day's undoing over Timetwister if Timetwister was unavailable to you? Or would you replace it entirely with something else?
I definitely agree with what trancer said, given that when we wheel, we're trying to refuel on a storm turn to keep going. The only time Day's Undoing would be useful is if we were already casting Leovold, and didn't want to go off, we just want to gas back up and play a control game. Given that this isn't plan A-E, I don't recommend Day's Undoing. Even Whispering Madness is a better choice, though I don't necessarily know if that's worth it either.
I get it's cedh, but i gotta stop at 800 dollar cards.
Would you run Day's undoing over Timetwister if Timetwister was unavailable to you? Or would you replace it entirely with something else?
I definitely agree with what trancer said, given that when we wheel, we're trying to refuel on a storm turn to keep going. The only time Day's Undoing would be useful is if we were already casting Leovold, and didn't want to go off, we just want to gas back up and play a control game. Given that this isn't plan A-E, I don't recommend Day's Undoing. Even Whispering Madness is a better choice, though I don't necessarily know if that's worth it either.
Fair enough, do you have the time to offer a suggestion on what you would replace it with?
With the 3 signets able to filter, grim monolith is slightly less a dead draw now in the deck. Is it worth it to try and fit in the power artifact combo?
I get it's cedh, but i gotta stop at 800 dollar cards.
Would you run Day's undoing over Timetwister if Timetwister was unavailable to you? Or would you replace it entirely with something else?
I definitely agree with what trancer said, given that when we wheel, we're trying to refuel on a storm turn to keep going. The only time Day's Undoing would be useful is if we were already casting Leovold, and didn't want to go off, we just want to gas back up and play a control game. Given that this isn't plan A-E, I don't recommend Day's Undoing. Even Whispering Madness is a better choice, though I don't necessarily know if that's worth it either.
Fair enough, do you have the time to offer a suggestion on what you would replace it with?
With the 3 signets able to filter, grim monolith is slightly less a dead draw now in the deck. Is it worth it to try and fit in the power artifact combo?
Proooooobably Whispering Madness, the more I think about it. I'm not 100% on that though. It's worth trying, I think.
As for Grim Monolith, I still am hesitant. We are increasing its theoretical effectiveness, but I don't think we're quite there yet. I think if I eventually abandon the High Tide lines in favor of more permanent fast mana and no manual storm, that will be when I pull the trigger on Grim and Power.
Hey! I've actually tried several different Oath of Druid builds, and this is 100% not one I really want. I've always used it to try and assemble Bomberman, and this is definitely the color set to do it in, but this deck is so much stronger and faster and less gimmicky than that would make it. The elves really do provide a lot of quality mana acceleration that rocks can't do for the same cost. While I could find arguments to cut JVP and Leovold, I would almost never want to cut LabMan. He really does make Doomsday a lot better.
Making a Dramatic Scepter totally spell reliant version of this could work, though, I personally just don't like getting rid of all of the mana dorks and Leovold to enable a spell that hasn't shown to be very good for me in testing. I would definitely encourage you to try it, though. I can help you tweak it if you want to PM me a decklist!
this was really great as doing it showed me why you were right.
i learned a lot but also got to like some cards you do not play.
Yeah that's something I'm going to work on soon. It's something I've seen in a lot of other primers and liked, so I'll be working on that for this primer eventually.
I'll take a peek at your list and get back to you on it, for sure!
Question for you, Myojin. I've noticed from your YouTube channel and my general observations about what seems to be most effective in the current cEDH meta game (granted, that's biased from watching Lab Maniacs), it seems like Food Chain and Thrasios are the most efficient and fastest decks in the format currently. I haven't seen Vial Smasher/Thrasios Storm or Yidris Storm, but I think that Thrasios DoomTide edges out Jeleva simply because it has more answers due to including WG. With that being said, it seems like Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass are very well positioned currently. Even if it's included within a list on a general basis, there is ALWAYS going to be a deck where naming their best activated ability card is going to shut them out of the game. Whether that's Yisan, Wanderer Bard, Arcum Dagsson, Aetherflux Reservoir, Necropotence, etc. I think that there will always be a target for that type of specific hate.
My question is, for my Teferi Stax deck: is it worthwhile to run a slot for one of these cards? Pithing Needle is definitely the best of the two, since its CMC is 1, but I like the ability to peek at an opponent's hand that the Spyglass offers. Kind of like a worse Gitaxian Probe.
Question for you, Myojin. I've noticed from your YouTube channel and my general observations about what seems to be most effective in the current cEDH meta game (granted, that's biased from watching Lab Maniacs), it seems like Food Chain and Thrasios are the most efficient and fastest decks in the format currently. I haven't seen Vial Smasher/Thrasios Storm or Yidris Storm, but I think that Thrasios DoomTide edges out Jeleva simply because it has more answers due to including WG. With that being said, it seems like Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass are very well positioned currently. Even if it's included within a list on a general basis, there is ALWAYS going to be a deck where naming their best activated ability card is going to shut them out of the game. Whether that's Yisan, Wanderer Bard, Arcum Dagsson, Aetherflux Reservoir, Necropotence, etc. I think that there will always be a target for that type of specific hate.
My question is, for my Teferi Stax deck: is it worthwhile to run a slot for one of these cards? Pithing Needle is definitely the best of the two, since its CMC is 1, but I like the ability to peek at an opponent's hand that the Spyglass offers. Kind of like a worse Gitaxian Probe.
If your meta facilitates single critical card activated abilities, that is quite possibly a good piece of hate to slot in. Depending on how fast you need to get down the hate would make or break the difference. For Teferi, it's probably fine to do Sorcerous Spyglass if that's the effect you're looking for. If you're up against Food Chain Prossh or Breakfast Hulk and you need the interaction on Turn 1, obviously Pithing Needle is going to have the edge.
How is this a primer? 28 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count. Every mull after the first is just less chance of having a land.
this is such a classic
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Also, the LabMen are absolutely fantastic. I have learned a lot from you guys, and it has improved my YouTube videos as well.
Legacy: ANT, Death and Taxes
EDH: Jori En, Ruin Diver Fast Combo
Pauper: Affinity
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Thank you so much! I hope you enjoy it! Please message me with how things are going for you with it, I'd love to hear what you see as over/underperformers in your meta.
Candelabra isn't critical, but Lion's Eye Diamond is irreplaceable to the Bomberman kill, which is the strongest part of this deck, in my opinion. Candelabra can be less beneficially replaced with Magus of the Candelabra, or potentially by another card draw spell. Lion's Eye Diamond (and subsequently Auriok Salvagers) I would recommend replacing with more mana ramp, so that you can get to Ad Nauseam faster, which will be your best way to win. Eladamri's Call is also a card I would cut if you removed Bomberman.
Would you run Day's undoing over Timetwister if Timetwister was unavailable to you? Or would you replace it entirely with something else?
Day's ends your turn, its probably the worst thing you could run, when going for budget, focus on cards that are the best you can afford of any type, and not necessarily fill a similar role.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I definitely agree with what trancer said, given that when we wheel, we're trying to refuel on a storm turn to keep going. The only time Day's Undoing would be useful is if we were already casting Leovold, and didn't want to go off, we just want to gas back up and play a control game. Given that this isn't plan A-E, I don't recommend Day's Undoing. Even Whispering Madness is a better choice, though I don't necessarily know if that's worth it either.
Fair enough, do you have the time to offer a suggestion on what you would replace it with?
With the 3 signets able to filter, grim monolith is slightly less a dead draw now in the deck. Is it worth it to try and fit in the power artifact combo?
Proooooobably Whispering Madness, the more I think about it. I'm not 100% on that though. It's worth trying, I think.
As for Grim Monolith, I still am hesitant. We are increasing its theoretical effectiveness, but I don't think we're quite there yet. I think if I eventually abandon the High Tide lines in favor of more permanent fast mana and no manual storm, that will be when I pull the trigger on Grim and Power.
Yeah that's something I'm going to work on soon. It's something I've seen in a lot of other primers and liked, so I'll be working on that for this primer eventually.
I'll take a peek at your list and get back to you on it, for sure!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
My question is, for my Teferi Stax deck: is it worthwhile to run a slot for one of these cards? Pithing Needle is definitely the best of the two, since its CMC is 1, but I like the ability to peek at an opponent's hand that the Spyglass offers. Kind of like a worse Gitaxian Probe.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
If your meta facilitates single critical card activated abilities, that is quite possibly a good piece of hate to slot in. Depending on how fast you need to get down the hate would make or break the difference. For Teferi, it's probably fine to do Sorcerous Spyglass if that's the effect you're looking for. If you're up against Food Chain Prossh or Breakfast Hulk and you need the interaction on Turn 1, obviously Pithing Needle is going to have the edge.
this is such a classic