I'm always on the boat/train, that if you got infinite mana then the only card you need is Thrasios himself.
As you say with Venser, Shaper Savant and Tidespout Tyrant these are going to make your opponents pick up their boards (literally with infinite) so the win con is just tapping them sideways with Beacon of Tomorrows or enough cards in deck at that stage to deal damage.
So things that could easily be taken out is Stroke of Genius or Blue Sun's Zenith and even Laboratory Maniac. There is the argument that you should have a backup plan, but 99% of games you just never cross a scenario where your Beacon of Tomorrows is removed from game. Your only weak point is getting graveyard milled and you don't have your 4 graveyard retrieval cards as a draw. Even then you don't have to draw your whole deck, just enough so that you can do an infinite Venser, Shaper Savant and Tidespout Tyrant to make sure opponents never have cards in play, and hopefully have enough cards left in deck to kill over a series of turns. Plus there is Time-Spiral, so if hasn't been cast already, means that you don't have to worry.
Lightning Greaves looks like it should be included with 3 of the combo creatures (Pili-Pala, Bloom Tender, Krosan Restorer) wanting to tap for the win. There is an argument that Hall of the Bandit Lord could be included for this reason.
Victory condition # is dependent on the opponent(s). If there is little disruption/removal/extract/dissipate effects at a table, then one could skate by with one-to-two victory cards. A lot of my friends although love control/stax/etc, so in my own personal meta I'd be inclined to keep them. I wouldn't want to loose to one trolling opponent's early sadistic sacrament.
Victory condition # is dependent on the opponent(s). If there is little disruption/removal/extract/dissipate effects at a table, then one could skate by with one-to-two victory cards. A lot of my friends although love control/stax/etc, so in my own personal meta I'd be inclined to keep them. I wouldn't want to loose to one trolling opponent's early sadistic sacrament.
Yeah maybe, but the thing is if the go for 3 cards, they could take out Beacons of Tomorrow, Tidespout Tyrant, Dead Eye Navigator I guess would be the way to stop most victory conditions. So probably Blue Sun's Zenith would be needed.
Well actually I failed to mention that Dead Eye Navigator + Vensor needs infinite colored mana. But when you're drawing your whole deck you can get those requirements into play. Also I failed when I said that you could infinitely bounce opponents board with Tidespout Tyrant. Its not infinite, you can only do as much as you have drawn and played spells. But again its just one of those things where if you have Dead Eye Navigator, you can ETB Eternal Witness, etc for infinite everything as well.
You need at least 6 blue sources lands (basics for Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power) if trying to do it with the artifacts which double your mana: Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun
Cloudstone Curio can do it but you need at least two of the untap land creatures, but this can include Cloud of Faeries. Also these can be used to get infinite mana if you have a land that is tapping for 3 mana, like Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Scorched Ruins, Lotus Vale, or maybe you have at least 2 lands tapping for 2 or more mana.
Argothian Elder is another way to untap multiple lands and so go infinite with a variety of cards.
The Thrasios/Ravos deck could be built analogously to my Akiri list. A ton and a half of mana creatures let you activate Thrasios over and over while Ravos adds one power per dork, similar to how Akiri adds one power per rock, and provides some auxiliary card advantage.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
Its a landfall deck pretty much, I wanted to make it fun by activating Thrasios and getting heaps of value off creatures entering the battlefield.
You can cehck out the deck list here, it been really fun. Heaps more fun than running infinite mana combos, as they tend to get a bit/lot repetitive.
Tymna the Weaver is pretty much for just the white and black splash, her ability plays a small role. Like you might draw 5 cards off her the entire game, because I haven't built in much evasiveness.
You can get massive board states with token creatures off the land fall and massive card advantage
Great write up, I think Thrasios is the single best commander spoiled with 2016, and I plan on making Thrasios/Kydele when I get some time and money to pick them up.
Great write up, I think Thrasios is the single best commander spoiled with 2016, and I plan on making Thrasios/Kydele when I get some time and money to pick them up.
..
I have to say I've played about 30 games with him now, and he is proving to be really quite awesome. Better than expected. The Thrasios/Kydele version I was playing is ok, getting combo pieces can be a bit hit and miss. I think some changes I'd make to it, is to have a few more Kydele enablers, like Memory Jar or Time Spiral. Getting her to a magical 4+ mana is key. I haven't changed the deck list yet, but this is what I'd suggest from play testing.
But the Landfall version has been really fun, and getting more value than I thought. I've been sealing the games up with quite the dominance.
I excluded the Bloom Tender, Krosan Restorer, Pili-Pala and Tidespout Tyrant combos as those combos are not only fragile but lack interaction with the rest of the deck, and the cards are pretty weak on their own in this deck. Instead, I tried to focus on combos with reusable pieces between different combos, taking up less space or using cards that are already otherwise good to run.
Kydele is easy to go infinite if you have a "draw 3" effect (Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, Compulsive Research) on top of the draw step.
Kydele is accessible from the Command Zone. Multiple combos involve Kydele, Mana Reflection, Palinchron, and/or Basalt Monolith. Some other pieces also have multiple uses. Training Grounds and Rings also interact with Thrasios, making the ability more efficient pre-combo. Phantasmal Image is just a good card. Deadeye Navigator is not used here for other infinite combos (since the other untappers only work with Deadeye and not the other pieces), but it's still useful to blink the other ETB creatures.
Sylvan Library is a Kydele enabler, you can even put the cards back, it allows you to "draw" 3. Trust me you're going to want Mind Over Matter - untap Kydele, keep draw/ramp going infinite.
What I've found is that it really is the Kydele >= 4 mana (draw 4) which is a key part. 5 if you want to get Staff of Domination to work.
Basically I really like your Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge.
Frantic Search doesn't get you to the threshold on its own, but you can combine this with another cantrip or Thrasios, maybe to get you there.
Things to take out for a number of these:
Regrowth
Lightning Greaves - the only thing this can do is to offer Kydele haste, but you'll find that you are probably not casting her and have the mana to combo off, most games. As far as protection, your combo Dead-eye and Palinchron are blinking, and really nothing else is a must to protect. It was the first card I cut just from realizing its protection factor was pretty minimal.
Coiling Oracle
Laboratory Maniac - trust me, not needed, once you go infinite then you are drawing your deck (leave a couple of cards to give yourself a few turns) bounce everything back to hand, and countering anything that's going to stop you. Kydele + Umbral Mantle and Rampaging Baloths/Avenger of Zendikar is finishing the game in one turn.
Flusterstorm - change for Arcane Denial for sure.
I excluded the Bloom Tender, Krosan Restorer, Pili-Pala and Tidespout Tyrant combos as those combos are not only fragile but lack interaction with the rest of the deck, and the cards are pretty weak on their own in this deck. Instead, I tried to focus on combos with reusable pieces between different combos, taking up less space or using cards that are already otherwise good to run.
I think you're absoluetly right, having play tested quite a few games, the number of times I've been waiting for a piece, isn't really that good.
I've actually been running a creature mana ramp version with mana elves. The only "infinite" combos I run are:
Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator
Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Umbral Mantle
Grim Monolith / Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth
Mind Over Matter + (Gaea's Cradle / Kydele / or anything like Grim Monolith / Basalt Monolith that will get you further into ramp/draw)
Since this needs to be cast on the combo turn to initiate going off, I think mana efficiency will be key. Costing 5 mana instead of 3 mana could make a big difference in when you can go off. Jace still makes the cut. Maybe he will survive from a previous turn. And he's Jace. Otherwise, I'm leaning towards Ideas Unbound, Treasure Cruise and Pore Over the Pages (which effectively costs 3 or less but is better than Dream Cache).
Also, the draw 3s work even with Staff. You can reduce the effective cost of Staff using Rings of Brighthearth or Power Artifact. I'm running Rings and Power anyway for Monolith, so it's incidental synergy. You can also get the 5th card through a Thrasios activation or another cantrip.
Lab Man + Sensei's Top/other cantrips wins the game on the spot and is harder for the opponent to interact with than token attacks and infinite turns. The tokens are actually my back-up win condition. Perhaps this is a personal choice. There are more ways opponent can interfere with winning in the combat step (infinite life combos, hexproof pillowforts, Alchemist's Refuge+Supreme Verdict, Boseiju, Who Shelters All+Rout). Also, Lab Man is just more time efficient. I can just say "draw my deck, Lab man + cantrip, GG", which is more merciful on a group than having to watch you bounce their whole board, make a bunch of tokens and attack over one or more turns. There's Cavern of Souls @ Wizard to make it uncounterable and countermagic and extra cantrips to respond to removal. It seems pretty resilient, and it just takes up one deck slot. Is there a reason I'm missing why the other win conditions are better?
Trust me you're going to want Mind Over Matter - untap Kydele, keep draw/ramp going infinite.
I have mixed feelings about this. Is Mind Over Matter really good in your testing? If you have an infinite mana combo, you don't need it to untap things. If you don't have an infinite combo, it's unreliable without Retreat to Coralhelm. Otherwise if you hit a land, you don't get to chain another untap. I don't like the idea of investing cards without knowing whether the combo chain will continue. In what board states does it let you reliably go off without Retreat?
Also, Lab Man is just more time efficient. I can just say "draw my deck, Lab man + cantrip, GG", which is more merciful on a group than having to watch you bounce their whole board, make a bunch of tokens and attack over one or more turns. There's Cavern of Souls @ Wizard to make it uncounterable and countermagic and extra cantrips to respond to removal. It seems pretty resilient, and it just takes up one deck slot. Is there a reason I'm missing why the other win conditions are better?
I want to do a whole article on why I think Labratory Mananic is a wasted card slot for win conditions. It basically literally does nothing if you draw it during the setup phase of the game. I play Shaman of Forgotten Ways as my back up win condition. It cost the same as Lab Man, but actually provides you mana as well. Otherwise the game just plays out with inevitability, you don't even need to put in "win-cons". I mean the time difference is about 1 minute right, between showing the loop of bouncing everything, and then going through their turns. I mean you're passing with literally 7 counterspells in your hand, and you don't care about board presence, because you just bounce anything. Your opponents know the writing is on the wall.
The thing with Avenger of Zendikar as a "win-con", is that it goes nice with Gaea's Cradle, so for me its a win-con plus a huge enabler. Rampaging Baloths can honestly be cut in your version. Like for my landfall deck, creatures can be used to fuel other effects, but all they are in yours is solid bodies, with minor enhancements to Gaea's Cradle. The 6 mana might prove to be too much pre infinite.
I have mixed feelings about this. Is Mind Over Matter really good in your testing? If you have an infinite mana combo, you don't need it to untap things. If you don't have an infinite combo, it's unreliable without Retreat to Coralhelm. Otherwise if you hit a land, you don't get to chain another untap. I don't like the idea of investing cards without knowing whether the combo chain will continue. In what board states does it let you reliably go off without Retreat?
Just replace Lab Man with Mind Over Matter, and try it out for testing? Say if you have a hand of 4 cards, the deck would need to have 8 land cards all in a row, because you get to scry 1, each time. So the likelihood is very low, that you're just not going to be able to cycle through your whole deck. Plus what happens is that you obviously draw cards that allow for infinite in other-ways. Once you're in the 4+ mana threshold with Mind Over Matter, its a win in my experience. Admittedly I do play Retreat to Coralhelm, but its not necessary to be in play.
Finally I'd change Crush of Tentacles for Devastation Tide. You can do setups where you can draw it in opponents turn, perhaps end step, and cast for miracle cost. Brainstorm/Jace it back on top of library type thing. Or even just naturally draw it from Thrasios.
I've been running with a fast green mana version of Thrasios + Kydele and its been amazingly competitive. Only really falling massive victim if you don't have a counterspell and get hit by a mass creature removal. But it runs a lot of counters, so far so good.
I've update the OP with the deck list, check it out here.
Thought I'd highlight some nice interactions with the card Nature's Will, in case people are wondering if its a good addition to a Thrasios build?
What this card can do is trigger for each different opponent that is dealt damage. You can use Thrasios ability and let your lands untap each time it resolves on the stack. First Strike is another ability that deals combat damage in a different phase, so again if you have a creature that has first strike and deals damage to a player you can trigger the untap lands ability one more time. Thrasios mana sink ability allows you to respond at instant speed to gain draw and land ramp advantages.
Crumbling Vestige sort of has its own built-in Lotus Cobra/Amulet of Vigor and so would be good to hit off Thrasios. It doesn't really help you to cast up to four colors of commander, but it psuedo-enters-the-battlefield-untapped so it shouldn't mess with your tempo too bad, unlike most enters-the-battlefield-tapped lands.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
Crumbling Vestige sort of has its own built-in Lotus Cobra/Amulet of Vigor and so would be good to hit off Thrasios. It doesn't really help you to cast up to four colors of commander, but it psuedo-enters-the-battlefield-untapped so it shouldn't mess with your tempo too bad, unlike most enters-the-battlefield-tapped lands.
Maybe in a build that also wants some colorless fixing for Eldrazi? Mono-green decks are know for ramping into Eldrazi, so a simic build that has a built in ramping commander is another sacry concept. Eldrazi with counterspells is always bound to make you friends
Maybe in a build that also wants some colorless fixing for Eldrazi?
I'm not saying that Crumbling Vestige is definitely right for a Thrasios deck, but the presence of Eldrazi can't be a big player in the decision. This is essentially like saying that colorless utility lands are only acceptable in decks that specifically need C.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
Have you ever considered looking at the simic fast mana elves/shamans with a BW leader to run Deathrite and co? I seem to be leaning that as I prepare to try and build something. It'd be essentially the same list, but maybe a few more dorks/better fixing ones and access to things like black tutors and Silence
Have you ever considered looking at the simic fast mana elves/shamans with a BW leader to run Deathrite and co? I seem to be leaning that as I prepare to try and build something. It'd be essentially the same list, but maybe a few more dorks/better fixing ones and access to things like black tutors and Silence
I got the landfall build which has Tymna the Weaver as a partner, but no I haven't done it with a heavy focus on mana dorks outside of simic.
For sure it will be a very powerful build. Birds of Paradise, Deathrite Shaman, Noble Hierarch, Demonic Tutor, Vamperic Tutor. Just be careful with the mana base, I'd only splash a little black and white. Diluting too much into four-colors can set you back, rather than take you forward.
It does mean you can potentially run the Cabal Coffers/Urborg as well when going into black.
As you say with Venser, Shaper Savant and Tidespout Tyrant these are going to make your opponents pick up their boards (literally with infinite) so the win con is just tapping them sideways with Beacon of Tomorrows or enough cards in deck at that stage to deal damage.
So things that could easily be taken out is Stroke of Genius or Blue Sun's Zenith and even Laboratory Maniac. There is the argument that you should have a backup plan, but 99% of games you just never cross a scenario where your Beacon of Tomorrows is removed from game. Your only weak point is getting graveyard milled and you don't have your 4 graveyard retrieval cards as a draw. Even then you don't have to draw your whole deck, just enough so that you can do an infinite Venser, Shaper Savant and Tidespout Tyrant to make sure opponents never have cards in play, and hopefully have enough cards left in deck to kill over a series of turns. Plus there is Time-Spiral, so if hasn't been cast already, means that you don't have to worry.
Even on top of that Scroll Rack could be included. This means that you never run out of turns to kill, and works nice with Mystical Tutor, Personal Tutor, Long-Term Plans.
Lightning Greaves looks like it should be included with 3 of the combo creatures (Pili-Pala, Bloom Tender, Krosan Restorer) wanting to tap for the win. There is an argument that Hall of the Bandit Lord could be included for this reason.
Tooth and Nail and Defense of the Heart = win, so should be included.
Looking good however. Probably just the mix between sorcery speed land ramp and disruption and draw, could be altered. Could be too much ramp?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Victory condition # is dependent on the opponent(s). If there is little disruption/removal/extract/dissipate effects at a table, then one could skate by with one-to-two victory cards. A lot of my friends although love control/stax/etc, so in my own personal meta I'd be inclined to keep them. I wouldn't want to loose to one trolling opponent's early sadistic sacrament.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Well actually I failed to mention that Dead Eye Navigator + Vensor needs infinite colored mana. But when you're drawing your whole deck you can get those requirements into play. Also I failed when I said that you could infinitely bounce opponents board with Tidespout Tyrant. Its not infinite, you can only do as much as you have drawn and played spells. But again its just one of those things where if you have Dead Eye Navigator, you can ETB Eternal Witness, etc for infinite everything as well.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Palinchron with double mana producers.
Any card which allows for double mana tapping of land: Heartbeat of Spring, Mana Reflection, Zendikar Resurgent, Regal Behemoth, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
or or or or or
You need at least 6 blue sources lands (basics for Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power) if trying to do it with the artifacts which double your mana: Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun
or or
These double mana cards above can also be combo with Great Whale or Peregrine Drake if you have Equilibrium as well.
or +
Cloudstone Curio can do it but you need at least two of the untap land creatures, but this can include Cloud of Faeries. Also these can be used to get infinite mana if you have a land that is tapping for 3 mana, like Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Scorched Ruins, Lotus Vale, or maybe you have at least 2 lands tapping for 2 or more mana.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
AND
Its a landfall deck pretty much, I wanted to make it fun by activating Thrasios and getting heaps of value off creatures entering the battlefield.
You can cehck out the deck list here, it been really fun. Heaps more fun than running infinite mana combos, as they tend to get a bit/lot repetitive.
Tymna the Weaver is pretty much for just the white and black splash, her ability plays a small role. Like you might draw 5 cards off her the entire game, because I haven't built in much evasiveness.
You can get massive board states with token creatures off the land fall and massive card advantage
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
But the Landfall version has been really fun, and getting more value than I thought. I've been sealing the games up with quite the dominance.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
2 Thrasios, Triton Hero
4 Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix
//Library Manipulation: 20
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Fabricate
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Drift of Phantasms
3 Intuition
3 Compulsive Research
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Chord of Calling
6 Time Spiral
//Artifact Mana: 6
0 Chrome Mox
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
2 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
//Combo Enablers: 8
1 Amulet of Vigor
1 Training Grounds
2 Power Artifact
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Umbral Mantle
3 Sword of the Paruns
6 Mana Reflection
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Spellskite
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Eternal Witness
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Trinket Mage
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
6 Rampaging Baloths
6 Deadeye Navigator
7 Palinchron
7 Avenger of Zendikar
//Other Spells: 14
0 Noxious Revival
0 Pact of Negation
1 Swan Song
1 Flusterstorm
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Mana Drain
2 Counterspell
2 Nature's Lore
2 Three Visits
2 Farseek
2 Regrowth
5 Force of Will
6 Crush of Tentacles
8 Beacon of Tomorrows
0 Gaea's Cradle
0 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
0 Simic Growth Chamber
0 Coral Atoll
0 Wasteland
0 Strip Mine
0 Academy Ruins
0 Cavern of Souls
0 Tropical Island
0 Breeding Pool
0 Command Tower
0 Hinterland Harbor
0 Botanical Sanctum
0 Yavimaya Coast
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Flooded Strand
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Windswept Heath
0 Verdant Catacombs
7 Forest
7 Island
I excluded the Bloom Tender, Krosan Restorer, Pili-Pala and Tidespout Tyrant combos as those combos are not only fragile but lack interaction with the rest of the deck, and the cards are pretty weak on their own in this deck. Instead, I tried to focus on combos with reusable pieces between different combos, taking up less space or using cards that are already otherwise good to run.
Kydele is easy to go infinite if you have a "draw 3" effect (Brainstorm, Sylvan Library, Compulsive Research) on top of the draw step.
Infinite mana combos:
1) Grim Monolith / Basalt Monolith + Power Artifact
2) Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth
3) Grim Monolith / Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
4) Palinchron + Mana Reflection
5) Palinchron + Phantasmal Image
6) Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator
7) Palinchron + 7 lands that tap for 12 (e.g. including Cradle or Nykthos)
8) Palinchron + Training Grounds + 7 lands that tap for 10
9) Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + draw 3 + Sword of the Paruns / Umbral Mantle
10) Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + draw 3 + Staff of Domination + Rings of Brighthearth (or another draw)
11) Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Training Grounds + Umbral Mantle
12) Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Power Artifact + Sword of the Paruns / Staff of Domination
13) Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Mana Reflection + Sword of the Paruns / Umbral Mantle / Staff of Domination
Kydele is accessible from the Command Zone. Multiple combos involve Kydele, Mana Reflection, Palinchron, and/or Basalt Monolith. Some other pieces also have multiple uses. Training Grounds and Rings also interact with Thrasios, making the ability more efficient pre-combo. Phantasmal Image is just a good card. Deadeye Navigator is not used here for other infinite combos (since the other untappers only work with Deadeye and not the other pieces), but it's still useful to blink the other ETB creatures.
Another option is Kiora's Follower / Voyaging Satyr + Gaea's Cradle / Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx + Sword of the Paruns / Umbral Mantle / Staff of Domination. However, it may be challenging to keep enough permanents in play for the lands to generate enough mana. The land untappers are also quite bad on their own. There's no reason to need them, since those pieces all work with Kydele, which is accessible from the command zone.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
What I've found is that it really is the Kydele >= 4 mana (draw 4) which is a key part. 5 if you want to get Staff of Domination to work.
Basically I really like your Compulsive Research, Thirst for Knowledge.
Here is a list of possible other at least draw 3 cards that get you to the 4 threshold are Harmonize, Careful Consideration, Urban Evolution, Meditate, Attunement, Concentrate, Distant Memories, Dream Cache, Ideas Unbound, Intellectual Offering, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Jace's Ingenuity, Mystic Confluence, Mystic Meditation, Oath of Jace, Plea for Power, Pore Over the Pages, Rhystic Scrying, Scour the Laboratory, Sift, Tezzeret's Ambition, Treasure Cruise, Ugin's Insight, Visions of Beyond, Vivisection.
I think the pick of the bunch is Ideas Unbound, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Mystic Confluence, Oath of Jace, Dream Cache, Pore Over the Pages, Harmonize, Concentrate.
Frantic Search doesn't get you to the threshold on its own, but you can combine this with another cantrip or Thrasios, maybe to get you there.
Things to take out for a number of these:
Regrowth
Lightning Greaves - the only thing this can do is to offer Kydele haste, but you'll find that you are probably not casting her and have the mana to combo off, most games. As far as protection, your combo Dead-eye and Palinchron are blinking, and really nothing else is a must to protect. It was the first card I cut just from realizing its protection factor was pretty minimal.
Coiling Oracle
Laboratory Maniac - trust me, not needed, once you go infinite then you are drawing your deck (leave a couple of cards to give yourself a few turns) bounce everything back to hand, and countering anything that's going to stop you. Kydele + Umbral Mantle and Rampaging Baloths/Avenger of Zendikar is finishing the game in one turn.
Flusterstorm - change for Arcane Denial for sure.
I think you're absoluetly right, having play tested quite a few games, the number of times I've been waiting for a piece, isn't really that good.
I've actually been running a creature mana ramp version with mana elves. The only "infinite" combos I run are:
Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator
Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Umbral Mantle
Grim Monolith / Basalt Monolith + Mana Reflection
Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth
Mind Over Matter + (Gaea's Cradle / Kydele / or anything like Grim Monolith / Basalt Monolith that will get you further into ramp/draw)
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
[/quote]
Thanks for the suggestions!
Since this needs to be cast on the combo turn to initiate going off, I think mana efficiency will be key. Costing 5 mana instead of 3 mana could make a big difference in when you can go off. Jace still makes the cut. Maybe he will survive from a previous turn. And he's Jace. Otherwise, I'm leaning towards Ideas Unbound, Treasure Cruise and Pore Over the Pages (which effectively costs 3 or less but is better than Dream Cache).
Also, the draw 3s work even with Staff. You can reduce the effective cost of Staff using Rings of Brighthearth or Power Artifact. I'm running Rings and Power anyway for Monolith, so it's incidental synergy. You can also get the 5th card through a Thrasios activation or another cantrip.
Lab Man + Sensei's Top/other cantrips wins the game on the spot and is harder for the opponent to interact with than token attacks and infinite turns. The tokens are actually my back-up win condition. Perhaps this is a personal choice. There are more ways opponent can interfere with winning in the combat step (infinite life combos, hexproof pillowforts, Alchemist's Refuge+Supreme Verdict, Boseiju, Who Shelters All+Rout). Also, Lab Man is just more time efficient. I can just say "draw my deck, Lab man + cantrip, GG", which is more merciful on a group than having to watch you bounce their whole board, make a bunch of tokens and attack over one or more turns. There's Cavern of Souls @ Wizard to make it uncounterable and countermagic and extra cantrips to respond to removal. It seems pretty resilient, and it just takes up one deck slot. Is there a reason I'm missing why the other win conditions are better?
I have mixed feelings about this. Is Mind Over Matter really good in your testing? If you have an infinite mana combo, you don't need it to untap things. If you don't have an infinite combo, it's unreliable without Retreat to Coralhelm. Otherwise if you hit a land, you don't get to chain another untap. I don't like the idea of investing cards without knowing whether the combo chain will continue. In what board states does it let you reliably go off without Retreat?
The thing with Avenger of Zendikar as a "win-con", is that it goes nice with Gaea's Cradle, so for me its a win-con plus a huge enabler. Rampaging Baloths can honestly be cut in your version. Like for my landfall deck, creatures can be used to fuel other effects, but all they are in yours is solid bodies, with minor enhancements to Gaea's Cradle. The 6 mana might prove to be too much pre infinite.
Just replace Lab Man with Mind Over Matter, and try it out for testing? Say if you have a hand of 4 cards, the deck would need to have 8 land cards all in a row, because you get to scry 1, each time. So the likelihood is very low, that you're just not going to be able to cycle through your whole deck. Plus what happens is that you obviously draw cards that allow for infinite in other-ways. Once you're in the 4+ mana threshold with Mind Over Matter, its a win in my experience. Admittedly I do play Retreat to Coralhelm, but its not necessary to be in play.
Finally I'd change Crush of Tentacles for Devastation Tide. You can do setups where you can draw it in opponents turn, perhaps end step, and cast for miracle cost. Brainstorm/Jace it back on top of library type thing. Or even just naturally draw it from Thrasios.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've update the OP with the deck list, check it out here.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What this card can do is trigger for each different opponent that is dealt damage. You can use Thrasios ability and let your lands untap each time it resolves on the stack. First Strike is another ability that deals combat damage in a different phase, so again if you have a creature that has first strike and deals damage to a player you can trigger the untap lands ability one more time. Thrasios mana sink ability allows you to respond at instant speed to gain draw and land ramp advantages.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I'm not saying that Crumbling Vestige is definitely right for a Thrasios deck, but the presence of Eldrazi can't be a big player in the decision. This is essentially like saying that colorless utility lands are only acceptable in decks that specifically need C.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
For sure it will be a very powerful build. Birds of Paradise, Deathrite Shaman, Noble Hierarch, Demonic Tutor, Vamperic Tutor. Just be careful with the mana base, I'd only splash a little black and white. Diluting too much into four-colors can set you back, rather than take you forward.
It does mean you can potentially run the Cabal Coffers/Urborg as well when going into black.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith