Ok, first this is more rough than I normally post decklists for however I think there is a lot of potential directions to go yet with this pair and I wanted to open it up if anyone had comments. I will try to pick back up later with this build but this is as far as I could get right now. I tried pushing heavier on 0-2 mana creatures that were relevant feeling that they can give me some early game consistency and I have a fairly solid turn 3 & 4 meaning I wanted to lighten up on my creatures at that point.
Let me know if you have ideas. Offhand I am sort of going creature swarm, I am contemplating possibly some sort of overrun tactics yet but for now I am really still spit balling things.
UPDATE: Here is version #2. I spoiled the original list I had together as a lot of changes have gone through so rather than trying to keep track of everything in and out I will just spoil the early draft I had. This version is a few cards over but its very close to 100 cards right now.(fixed) Its still a draft version as this has not been tested but I had more time to work on it so I got it into a better spot with a little more time and attention. You might notice with this version I pushed a little more fast mana with the moxes. I am trying to move fast and draw cards where I can I guess.
Some of the cards I had a little more time spent with considering for the list still yet are:
Ranger of Eos - so, it fits this deck well in that I actually run one drops and I want them. The problem is that he lands in the 4 drop spot which is when I want to be curving my commander so I realistically have to consider the ranger a 5 or 6 drop. I think what he does is decent and I have some great utility in the one drop but I question if the creature that it comes with is so great. A 3/2 doesn't quite fit what this deck does so I felt like I was paying a little too much for the tutor for 2 one drops I guess is where I felt.
Assault Formation - I like that this changes Kondo into essentially a 5/5 but the problem I have with it is that it doesnt really nicely drop in until I am all set up. It felt a little too clunky because of that. I wanted to try to stay with cards that are just actively good to keep casting rather than jam my hand up with situational cards.
Orzhov Pontiff - I like it for token hate but I kept feeling like it as a creature didnt quite fit what I was doing here. I am not sac based so the haunt effect is a little more awkward. I liked that it was a creature and fit the evasion plan of the deck but I still felt like it was a little too awkward yet.
Collected Company - tons of targets but even then we are looking like 1/3 of the deck as targets. Its good but in general I have draw and it doesnt really give me much for selection or cost reduction. I love this card I guess is where I am lol.
Chord of Calling - I love the idea of tutoring for mass indestructable mid wrath I guess. Its a little expensive to cast and keep that mana up is why I shyed away from it right now. It still seems good but there are not too many creatures that I would be toolboxing for that I felt I needed this tutor. I also like Chord when keeping the mana up rather than just actively playing a creature which is part of why I shyed away from it here.
Attrition - it seems like strong spot removal when I can target what I need to. I have cheap creatures who I could easily see tossing away to defend or get through with. The biggest thing that holds me back is this is an aggro deck and when you run into that black creature that needs removed it really hurts to be sitting on this.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - it felt like it interfered a little with my commander plays. Its 3 power is probably ok since it has first strike it could always defend instead if need be. My problem was too much overlap in 3 and 4 drops as I wanted to keep my game progression smooth when I can of moving to my commanders on curve or sooner.
Withered Wretch - I kept the Scavenging Ooze and benched this for now. It is a little debateable as to which is better but I like that the Scavenging Ooze on its own can do a lot of work so when things go wrong I would prefer to have the Ooze than the Wretch or if grave removal is not what I need the ooze tends to shine more.
I actually have a nifty little human tribal list that looked a lot like this. I'm going to spitball some ideas out there for you, cards that worked really well for me, and see if anything catches.
Creatures:
Odric, Master Tactician - Great to get your little dudes through, expands on the "cant block me" theme from Kondo. Knight of the Reliquary - Fits the beater prereq for early game, turns into a nice land tutor and huge beater mid to late-game. Anafenza, the Foremost - Amazing hatebear, shuts down all graveyard tactics. Not under 2 power, but she's in your colors and I'd run her. Shutting off gy's is just awesome. Champion of Lambholt - More "can't block me." Gets very, very, very big. Eternal Witness - Staple, self explanatory. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - Helps a final push, especially if you've got a ton of mana through Mirari's Wake or whatnot, if you throw that in. Silverblade Paladin - Helps your tiny dudes push more damage through early game. Also fits Kondo's prereq. Lightning Greaves - I feel like you'll want these or swiftfoot boots, maybe both. Especially in an aggressive deck. Merciless Eviction - Gets rid of pretty much any problem you want to get rid of.
My list is here if you're interested in taking a peak. Maybe you'll find a spark or two in there. I certainly think I could slap these two in as commanders of the deck and they'd do fantastic (in the sense of, fantastically as a casual deck xD).
How about adding spells that pump attack? That way they pass through block due to having at most 2 power but then deal ridiculous amounts of combat damage due to having doublestrike and a pumped p/t.
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First of all, thank you for all of your comments. I have been working hard to get my list updated as like I had said my first version was incredibly rough and I spent a good bit of time looking for cards and switching things in and out from my original list. I spoiled the original list and put up a version #2.0 for any who are interested where it has gone. I didn't want to outline all of the card changes considering how many cards changed not to mention how many cards over 100 I had been before. I am still a few cards over but I think its like 3 cards over now which I will work on bringing down yet.
More Lifelink - its an option. Offhand I was trying to work with a fast early game beater approach where I hope to run my opponents down with small threats and put them on the defensive rather than worrying about my own life total. In some ways you could consider it a bit of a suicide black approach.
Evasion - Kondo also offers evasion and in a lot of ways I dont think Tymna needs blue so much as evasion to connect. The amount of draw that Tymna offers in a lot of ways can mimic having access to blue. To be honest I am playing a little bit of an Edric mentality here but I also helped back when Edric came out to develop him into what he became so while I like Edric I also dont want to actually play edric. In a lot of ways playing Abzan with similar tactics seems interesting to me in part because I dont have counterspells or extra turns so it does not feel as oppressive.
I actually have a nifty little human tribal list that looked a lot like this. I'm going to spitball some ideas out there for you, cards that worked really well for me, and see if anything catches.
Creatures:
Odric, Master Tactician - Great to get your little dudes through, expands on the "cant block me" theme from Kondo. Knight of the Reliquary - Fits the beater prereq for early game, turns into a nice land tutor and huge beater mid to late-game. Anafenza, the Foremost - Amazing hatebear, shuts down all graveyard tactics. Not under 2 power, but she's in your colors and I'd run her. Shutting off gy's is just awesome. Champion of Lambholt - More "can't block me." Gets very, very, very big. Eternal Witness - Staple, self explanatory. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - Helps a final push, especially if you've got a ton of mana through Mirari's Wake or whatnot, if you throw that in. Silverblade Paladin - Helps your tiny dudes push more damage through early game. Also fits Kondo's prereq. Lightning Greaves - I feel like you'll want these or swiftfoot boots, maybe both. Especially in an aggressive deck. Merciless Eviction - Gets rid of pretty much any problem you want to get rid of.
My list is here if you're interested in taking a peak. Maybe you'll find a spark or two in there. I certainly think I could slap these two in as commanders of the deck and they'd do fantastic (in the sense of, fantastically as a casual deck xD).
I started my approach and I originally started with somewhat of a hatebear approach that slowly moved more towards just some sort of a suicide black aggro abzan list. My goal with my creatures was build arround curving well, drawing more cards off of Tymna, gaining evasion from Kondo, and just bringing life totals down as I went.
Odric, Master Tactician - I absolutely love Odric so believe me when I say I put consideration into him. I used to play an Odric deck so he is very satisfying and fun to play with. That said, he does not pair well with Kondo. As an alternative means of gaining evasion he is slow as he needs to attack as well where as Kondo in play provides my evasion. I also dont have that much power on my creatures which makes the controlling blocks awkward as it leaves me mostly with trying to send them through. Due to these reasons I felt he didn't quite fit here. Knight of the Reliquary - I had it in the list when I first built it. I ended up cutting it because I felt that I was going to mostly avoid using much for utility lands and as soon as it grows it is no longer evasive. I think it could work but I am somewhat demanding on my landbase as far as getting me colors on curve so I was avoiding a lot of utility lands because of that. Anafenza, the Foremost - It could work as a grave hate effect. The problem with it offhand is that it grows creatures to no longer be evasive or you have to avoid using its counters. It is also a little off on getting my commanders out offhand. Champion of Lambholt - It could work. I always felt its a little slow to pick up enough value for it to work though. Eternal Witness - good call I totally forgot to add witness. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - I did a lot of considerations of pump effects. I considered him, overrun, and probably about 7 other mass pump effects. I did in the end add a few to my list but I tried to keep to effects that fit the deck a little better and or dropped in sooner. Great Oak Guardian, Jazal Goldmane, and Sunblade Elf are a few of the creatures I added to try to buff my creatures up a little. I felt that these were some of the mass buff effects that were easier to drop whenever I could and or use my evasion still. I might still consider more mass pump effects but I wanted to focus on my main goal which was a well oiled machine before I tried mashing more big haymaker buffs into the deck. Silverblade Paladin - I had it in my original build but I felt that three drops were a little awkward with my objectives of the deck as well as the fact that more often than not my creatures are not connecting for that much damage. I might consider it still in the future as it does do decent work on anything that has triggers on doing damage (the few I have). Lightning Greaves - I did try to make room for it but in the end I just felt that the shroud didnt matter enough for me to justify it. It could be used for the haste but the slow down of me casting it felt like as much of a delay as waiting a turn to attack with most things. Merciless Eviction - I decided to run a lot of power checking wraths rather than outright wraths. It might bite me in the ass when it comes to tokens but in general I felt like it was a good move as far as a tempo deck went. In the end, a tempo style of suicide black deck was sort of the feel I was going for with this.
How about adding spells that pump attack? That way they pass through block due to having at most 2 power but then deal ridiculous amounts of combat damage due to having doublestrike and a pumped p/t.
Thanks for the reminder, I tend to focus more on a well moving deck rather than how I will get about winning. I am still light on these effects for the time being but I added a few mass pump effects that I felt functioned a little better in the deck. I looked at more traditional things like Overrun as well as things like Craterhoof Behemoth (a card I detest) and things like Beastmaster's Ascension. In the end I tried to go with some creature based versions that would be able to be played out on curve and Great Oak Guardian who is my one exception who gives me a mass pump at instant speed with an untap. I may consider more effects but I also felt that big buff effects also interfered with the natural flow of the deck so I kept it light for the time being.
I like infect with this pair. Seems like it could be good. Dirty, but good.
You could pair infect with a deck like this. One of the big issues though with infect is that there are not many "good" infect cards in the card pool and its an all or nothing effect in that you will probably be on your own and have to infect kill players entirely on your own. I am not a big fan of infect in this format as I just dont feel it has much for consistancy. There are a few commanders I feel can pull it off better but I dont see a lot of synergy with it here other than using the lesser infect creatures and giving them evasion. I would rather use 1-2 infect creatures in a deck that has synergy with them with a higher chance of killing people with them than try to force a lot of small ones here.
I think you need more Spectres. They're 2/2s and they disrupt. It's a way to marry White Weenie with disruption and Green for colour fixing.
I considered it. Hypnotic Specter being the bread and butter of them. The unfortunate thing about spectrers is that they mostly fall into the 3-4 mana range which is when I am somewhat action jammed playing out my commanders. I am not willing to play a specter over my commanders with my current gameplan as its more effective to curve well into my commanders. Because of this most of the 3-4 mana creatures are ones I have accepted may be played after my commanders and with that I felt that the specters felt too slow for.
I considered him but in the end I went with Jazal Goldmane who can also pump after blocks but costs less mana and pumps bigger for less mana (to drop and use in the same turn). I also felt that Jazal was a better drop as I felt he could be used outside of his pumps where as I felt that Kamahl was a lot more expensive. Its possible to run Kamahl for wrath defense but he is so green heavy I felt that would be hard to execute here.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Hey man, the deck looks awesome! I am completely in love with sidar Kondo. I want to run him paired with Ikra Shidiqi and have tymna in the 99.
I also want a Naya build with Kondo and Tana Bloodsower!
So my suggestion is don't sleep on bombs with morph. While looking for cards for Kondo/Tana I realized Red Akroma would sneak in under Kondo as a morph, then after the blocker step, turn her over!
Flyers obviously prove a problem with the deck, so I'd pack in a Swords to Plowshares and a Island of Wak Wak (budget allowing).
Also Austere Command seems good as I believe a lot of the flyers played in commander are 4 cmc or higher, and most of your creatures go under this threshold.
I'd remove Great Oak Guardian as it potentially gives the opponents a creature they can copy that has "reach". Subtle, but one of those things that can come up. Obviously Silklash Spider also has reach, but she is just so effective to clearing flyers that she is a must stay in.
Hey man, the deck looks awesome! I am completely in love with sidar Kondo. I want to run him paired with Ikra Shidiqi and have tymna in the 99.
I also want a Naya build with Kondo and Tana Bloodsower!
So my suggestion is don't sleep on bombs with morph. While looking for cards for Kondo/Tana I realized Red Akroma would sneak in under Kondo as a morph, then after the blocker step, turn her over!
Thanks
It's going to take a bit of adjusting still but I look forward to playtesting with things.
Flyers obviously prove a problem with the deck, so I'd pack in a Swords to Plowshares and a Island of Wak Wak (budget allowing).
Also Austere Command seems good as I believe a lot of the flyers played in commander are 4 cmc or higher, and most of your creatures go under this threshold.
I'd remove Great Oak Guardian as it potentially gives the opponents a creature they can copy that has "reach". Subtle, but one of those things that can come up. Obviously Silklash Spider also has reach, but she is just so effective to clearing flyers that she is a must stay in.
Spot Removal - Its an option and an idea. It depends a little on how quickly people are putting up flying blockers though as well as how many of them they can put up. I tried to as much as possible go with versatile removal when it comes to the spot removal I do run. Its possible to consider Attrition yet which is on my radar as a means of trading my creatures off with problem creatures on my opponents side. There honestly are not that many good black flyers that see play in commander that wouldn't die to a 2/2 anyways. It comes down a little bit to how much early game flyers you see in a meta as to how much you need to deal with it. I also considered something like Downdraft as an answer to it.
Island of Wak-Wak - its more that its a land that doesn't provide mana in my mind.
Austere Command - good call. I didn't really think about the fact that I can sculpt it around most of my deck. I will probably swap that in for Fell the Mighty. I think Fell the Mighty is also very flavorful but its vulnerable to spot removal and Austere Command can clear out artifacts or enchantments as I need.
Behind the Scenes could be a nice backup for if you can't get Sidar Kondo out or if he gets removed.
Behind the Scenes - I did oddly enough look at it for a bit. It could still be worth considering but I dont know how often I will need alternative evasion. I might just play it by ear and see how much of a problem it is for me. It may be an issue for me if people are targeting Kondo as I attack or something of that sort but shy of that I dont know how much of a problem it will be.
A more hate-bearsy approach with a few more engines thrown in. Still don't think I have the numbers on redundant effects down yet.
Also the list above in the first post is I think 102 cards sans the Commanders? Meaning 3 need to be removed?
Hate Bears - I started off my list looking a little more hate bear heavy. I paired it down some because I felt that hatebears is still a tactic that works by stall tactics. I dont know what direction is the right way to go but I wanted to avoid getting too heavy on 3 & 4 drop creatures because I planned to curve into things a little more. I didn't want to have a lot of 3 & 4 drops because I will get action jammed with them where as I want to be playing one and two drops more consistantly. Ethersworn Canonist / Eidolon of Rhetoric these two actually sound harmful to your own list so I would recommend reconsidering because a deck like this relies on drawing and playing more things a turn which is counter intuitive to what they do. I also did consider a few of the creatures you have in there but the zero attack creatures such as Birds of Paradise and Blood Artist seemed concerning to me as well because they cant naturally connect for damage. I considered running mana dorks like Lanowar Elves but I will have to think about it a bit more. I should have a fairly strong fixing landbase but I dont know about one drop dorks that give only one type of mana offhand.
Again, I dont know if hatebears is a good idea or not. I think some of the stronger ones are cool but at the same time I ended up cutting some like Glowrider because they action jammed me with Tymna and I felt they lost some of their effect when they are not curved into play early. Some of your card ideas are interesting though as I had not considered Phyrexian Revoker. Sakura-Tribe Elder is another one that for some reason I dismissed but I think it still has some good potential. Containment Priest is also one I go back and forth on a bit which I will have to put more thought into.
Yes, my list is still over count. I need to go back and make a few hard last cuts to get to 100 cards yet. I will see what I can do as I would like to get on to testing this soon. EDIT: Made some adjustments to get to 100 cards and tweak a few things.
CUT Bloodsoaked Champion there is a big difference between Bloodghast who comes back for free and this. Its still a one drop with good power and it can be recurred which I guess isnt something I am dismissing entirely but for now I wanted to get to 100 cards and while the recursive ability of it is nice I want to try for utility and power before robust right now.
CUT Entomb to be honest, if I am not able to hit Bloodghast I have no other real targets. I thought that Bloodsoaked Champion might be the other option but the more I thought about that the less I felt I would actually want to do that. I dont like running tutors for only one target.
CUT Relic Seeker I had planned for a bigger equipment package originally. Once this guy connects the first time he drops any evasion that Kondo would give him which makes me a little more leery of running him. I might reassess later but as it is it seems like Sword of Feast and Famine would be the only thing I would want to get for him given his size bumps him out of evasion range.
Utter End -> Attrition I had wanted to find room to at least try Attrition. I also think that I had a good amount of spot removal that hits anything but I perhaps needed a little more to focus fire creatures specifically so I will try this for now. I contemplated all of the spot removal I had and I felt the higher cost of this card put it in my sigts for trading out.
Cartel Aristocrat -> Phyrexian Revoker revoker adds some utility to my two drops where I dont know how important a sac outlet is. I love the Aristocrat dont get me wrong but this isnt a deck that generates value from creature deaths really.
Fell the Mighty -> Austere Command I think that Austere can cover a lot of the same functionality in the 4+ mana creatures option plus it gives me options of artifacts or enchantment removal without taking myself out for the most part.
I see your points regarding Eidolon of rhetoric and ethersworn Canonist but those cards seem really good at protecting your lead.
Also I think a deck like this may want Gaea's Cradle, could be very powerful, especially considering all the recursive dudes you have, means that you likely arr always going to have some creatures lying aroud.
I wanted to take advantage of playing so many creatures, and both Glowrider and Rhalia are great at protecting your board and slowing your opponents down in order to get a few more hits in. At least that is the idea behind them. Again, only testing will really tell if this is the casse.
Another direction I considered going wss the arustocrats direction with mass recursion like rally the ancestors. I feel a deck like that could have a lot of play to it. Might not actually be better, but maybe more fun.
Edit: Also surprised not to see Mirror Entity find its way into your list. I do like Whisperwood Elemental though. Seems good here.
I see your points regarding Eidolon of rhetoric and ethersworn Canonist but those cards seem really good at protecting your lead.
Also I think a deck like this may want Gaea's Cradle, could be very powerful, especially considering all the recursive dudes you have, means that you likely arr always going to have some creatures lying aroud.
I wanted to take advantage of playing so many creatures, and both Glowrider and Rhalia are great at protecting your board and slowing your opponents down in order to get a few more hits in. At least that is the idea behind them. Again, only testing will really tell if this is the casse.
Another direction I considered going wss the arustocrats direction with mass recursion like rally the ancestors. I feel a deck like that could have a lot of play to it. Might not actually be better, but maybe more fun.
Edit: Also surprised not to see Mirror Entity find its way into your list. I do like Whisperwood Elemental though. Seems good here.
Eidolon of rhetoric and ethersworn Canonist - keep in mind the first spell they play might be a wrath. I dont like them because they are not something you should want to drop on curve so it means you have to be doing well for them to be good and then it depends on what your opponents have in hand / can do. Their effects naturally favor decks that do not draw a lot of cards and or want to chain cast things in a turn which is my concern offhand.
Gaea's Cradle - its probably a good call here. I didnt think of it at first but its a good one to add. I will see if I cant get my hands on one but rolling into the holiday season seems like not the time I am going to drop the money on a copy. I rarely run green token based strategies which is where this shines so up until now I have not justified its purchase. It probably is worth having here though.
Glowrider & friends - my issue is mostly with the fact that they cost 3. I totally agree with the 2 mana Thalia, Guardian of Thraben but the fact that they cost 3 means you need to drop them behind curve. I just dont feel like they buy enough time when you are not even planning to drop them on curve if you get them in an opening hand. I have a Grand Arbiter Augustin IV deck and I can tell you that these sort of effects only stall. If you are not using them on curve they get a LOT less effective and that is my concern with them offhand is that they dont do nearly as well if you dont curve into them and with a 3 mana commander it complicates the plan. My goal for 3 mana creatures was to have them still be worth playing as a turn 5 play if need be and I just didn't get the impression that they were going to do as well later. I also have to go in assuming that 1000 bodies in play to achieve something is not a good result as we dont have counterspells to stop wraths (yes I know white technically has a few).
Sac Outlets - I also considered going further into this plan. Its possible to pull off some Living Death fun if you have a sac outlet and if you did want to go this direction Scavenging Ooze + Withered Wretch + Anafenza could all be very strong in putting opponents off of their graveyards. I felt it was a little too complicated to make it work though. It felt like it had a lot of cards I would need to include to make it work right and overall it didnt feel like the payoff was worth the amount of cards I would have needed to add to this plan. Its possible though to make some sort of a grave pact concept work here though too.
Mirror Entity - I did some quick math and it honestly wasn't much different from Jazal Goldmane. Lets say you have 9 mana (could play and execute either). Mirror Entity would drop and make your creatures into 6/6s. For this to make sense to do you would probably still want somewhere in the range of 5+ creatures who can attack to justify doing it. If you had Jazal Goldmane the buff would be about the same and you can still activate it after defense is made. My justification towards Jazal was more because I felt that it was on a better body that I would be more willing to play outside of comboing dropping and using it in one turn. Jazal has a better top end to it and on the lower end of the buff you probably dont want to have Mirror Entity anyways. I considered both and while both are an option I felt like I was less likely to slow roll a Mirror Entity as it just felt worse to me. Mirror Entity is probably one of the most likely considerations beyond what I have currently though but I just felt it had less versatility in what it does over what I decided to use instead.
EDIT: I also wonder if you might want to turn Karmic Guide into something like Yawgmoth's Will. Karmic fits the theme of the deck but honestly most of the creatures in the deck are cheap to cast and you really dont ever want to pay for the echo of Karmic shy of some sort of black voltron commander sitting across from you. The cost efficiency of Karmic seems bad here when so many other things give better rez for cheap creatures. Yawgmoth's Will only costs 3 mana so if you wanted a 2 drop then you are the same mana in to get that first creature and it benefits more from surplus mana as well as the cheap cost of cards.
You are probably right on the "speedbump hatebears" as we shall call them. I 'll take them out of my list. But why is Thalia so different than Glowrider that you would run one but not the other? Its not like we are running Captain Sisay to tutor any of them up, and they are both just as bad off curve. The difference on two and three on 5 lands might be important sometimes, but I rarely see that popping up. Is it because every game you plan on slamming T3 Tymna into turn 4 Kondo meaning that you would only ever play Glowrider on turn 5? I can see that I guess? Still not entirely convinced.
Though the reason I have Karmic Guide in there is twofold:
1) I want some kind of combo finisher as the game goes long, and this is one way to do just that. In addition, it is a good bit of value on its own.
2) 5 cmc- good for Birthing Pod chain. I run one in my list, and there are a few cards I put into the deck to support it that wouldn't be in the list normally (looking at you Solemn). Curving into this with Pod as a top end seems pretty good.
Mirror Entity is an easier tutor target however (Recruiter of the Guard), and scales better with Gaea's Cradle (if you decide to include it) for more activations.
I'm a little unsure on Yawgmoth's Will, what is it doing for you that Karmic Guide can't do? I can't imagine bringing back 3 or 4 creatures with it in one turn, and it doesn't exactly give you the ability to recover from wraths very well in addition to not being able to infinite....
Just had my first game on cockatrice, and I have a few notes: Bane of Progress can win games. Umezawa's Jitte was good, just might be a tad slow. The ability to provide reach and removal can be key though.
The manabase is still rough. I felt a disproportionate amount of my deck was white and green and consistently wanted more of both.
The sac outlets I was running were less than good. Removing some of them now. I think Sadistic Hypnotist may want to remain in but the rest outside of Viscera Seer and Hypnotist may need to go. Duskwatch Recruiter is too slow. The entire game I never activated it because the deck already has enough draw that is all better than this guy I felt.
Land Destruction was brutal. Acidic Slime and Wasteland really kept opponents on the same level as I. That along with Bane of Progress destroying mana rocks is the reason I won. Makes me want to add Life from the Loam to my list.
I need more single target removal. I feel Fiend Hunter be a good addition, because of the potential for infinite combos and because with a sac outlet, you can do some real damage on opponents' boards.
Does Volrath's Stronghold belong here? I feel like it could be very good but spending 3 mana like that seems rather expensive.....
Sorry for the delay getting back to these posts. I had been weighing a few other commander options but overall I am still interested in this deck probably the most. I was trying to assess where I wanted to spend my focus first when this product comes out and I considered a few other options as well before I cycled back here.
You are probably right on the "speedbump hatebears" as we shall call them. I 'll take them out of my list. But why is Thalia so different than Glowrider that you would run one but not the other? Its not like we are running Captain Sisay to tutor any of them up, and they are both just as bad off curve. The difference on two and three on 5 lands might be important sometimes, but I rarely see that popping up. Is it because every game you plan on slamming T3 Tymna into turn 4 Kondo meaning that you would only ever play Glowrider on turn 5? I can see that I guess? Still not entirely convinced.
Though the reason I have Karmic Guide in there is twofold:
1) I want some kind of combo finisher as the game goes long, and this is one way to do just that. In addition, it is a good bit of value on its own.
2) 5 cmc- good for Birthing Pod chain. I run one in my list, and there are a few cards I put into the deck to support it that wouldn't be in the list normally (looking at you Solemn). Curving into this with Pod as a top end seems pretty good.
Mirror Entity is an easier tutor target however (Recruiter of the Guard), and scales better with Gaea's Cradle (if you decide to include it) for more activations.
I'm a little unsure on Yawgmoth's Will, what is it doing for you that Karmic Guide can't do? I can't imagine bringing back 3 or 4 creatures with it in one turn, and it doesn't exactly give you the ability to recover from wraths very well in addition to not being able to infinite....
EDIt: Mother of Runes has a lot of potential in a deck like this as well, any reason not to include it?
Thalia vs Glowrider - its entirely in their ability to curve well. The difference between a plan of a turn 2 and a turn 5 play makes a world of difference. Consider that most players will ramp in the 2-3 mana range when you consider a lot of ramp. The difference between dropping Thalia and Glowrider is quite different when your glowrider is not something that would hit play on turn 3. Being a two drop puts her a lot more relevant in cutting off mana stones and green ramp not to mention the random disruption to a lot of other strategies. What it really boils down to for me is that this deck is trying to act quickly and be disruptive / bring people down in their life totals. If you slow them down even a turn it can mean that you might be able to kill them or set up an effect that will keep them from blowing up your creatures. The problem with these small scale tax effects is that they really need to come in early to make their impact worthwhile when you are looking for aggro swarm tactics. The difference in their costs is a large difference in how good they are.
Karmic Guide - my problem with the guide is that if you are not abusing creatures it does not feel very good here. I have played creature abuse with Karmic / Birthing Pod tactics, it just feels like it slows the deck down a little which I dont know if that is a direction this can really nicely go. My old Jenara deck used to play creature abuse tactics but I just dont know if these commanders can really nicely go that direction. Its definately a different direction than what I am trying for in my own list. These decks tend to be a lot more ETB / leaves play based creatures with sac outlets, skullclamps, and such like that.
Mirror Entity - I will keep an eye on the entity. Its not something I am going to worry about yet but it does seem good with the cradle (I need to buy one of those).
Yawgmoth's Will - its a lot stronger when you look at the fact that it lets you cast multiple cards from graveyard. This list is going off of a very low mana cost and it lets you do a lot more in your turn as well. Recovering a land, casting instants / sorcery / artifacts / enchantments are all strong moves too. My issue with Karmic is that unless you play the creature abuse style of deck the body that comes with the guide itself generally isnt that great. I would also normally want to be recovering like 5+ mana creatures with karmic for it to really feel good but here we are so heavy on like 2 drops I dont know it gets there.
Mentor of the Meek and Bygone Bishop - its a matter of speed. Both of them are 3 drops so they would be off curve and then it involves a lot of "extra" mana spent to do the drawing. Being that Tymna has draw included as the commander I am not sure how much additional draw I need offhand. I think they are flavorful and could come in but until I get around to playing this I felt they were somewhat slow to do their thing.
Mother of Runes - I have honestly never liked Mother of Runes. So, if you drop her on curve, when you go to play Tymna I assume you intend to keep her up as protection. The problem with this idea is that she is now stuck untapped to respond. That means she isn't attacking and is just there to prevent spot removal really. At the same time, you could run Benevolent Bodyguard or Sylvan Safekeeper who can attack and protect. More than anything though, my concern is not spot removal but wraths so its part of why I decided to forego some of the protection from spot removal because I felt that it was less of a concern to me as it stood. If you want protection from spot removal, I still feel that Mother of Runes is not the answer because again, she has a longer time before she can activate and she requires you to over commit to the board further to stop spot removal when sweepers would be more of my concern.
Just had my first game on cockatrice, and I have a few notes: Bane of Progress can win games. Umezawa's Jitte was good, just might be a tad slow. The ability to provide reach and removal can be key though.
The manabase is still rough. I felt a disproportionate amount of my deck was white and green and consistently wanted more of both.
The sac outlets I was running were less than good. Removing some of them now. I think Sadistic Hypnotist may want to remain in but the rest outside of Viscera Seer and Hypnotist may need to go. Duskwatch Recruiter is too slow. The entire game I never activated it because the deck already has enough draw that is all better than this guy I felt.
Land Destruction was brutal. Acidic Slime and Wasteland really kept opponents on the same level as I. That along with Bane of Progress destroying mana rocks is the reason I won. Makes me want to add Life from the Loam to my list.
I need more single target removal. I feel Fiend Hunter be a good addition, because of the potential for infinite combos and because with a sac outlet, you can do some real damage on opponents' boards.
Does Volrath's Stronghold belong here? I feel like it could be very good but spending 3 mana like that seems rather expensive.....
Thanks for the game report. I will try to do one myself when I get my list up and running. Volrath's seems a little awkward if you stick to low cost creatures as most of them are not worth spending the time to set back up to the top deck and it complicates the manabase which already needs to perform really well every game.
Just a few changes I wanted for my list for the time being. I will see what I can do about getting a cradle yet.
CHANGES:
Elvish Visionary -> Walking Atlas the elf gives me a body plus draw. I think that still has potential but I also wanted to be moving my deck well and I think the option of throwing more lands from hand to play means you can snowball resources better.
Warriors' Lesson -> Exploration I like Warriors' Lesson because its on theme somewhat and cool but its good when the deck is doing well and when that is happening I dont know that I need what it does for me. I think Exploration helps me get going faster which seems promising to me. It also works very well when I am drawing more cards as it means I will throw away less of the lands which means I can snowball resources easier.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So, my cards showed up today over lunch. I am looking forward to getting this list together so I pulled cards form all over the place trying to find all of the random cards I plan to need here. I got to thinking about some additional cards too while I was pushing things around. When I was first building the list I was hesitant on some of the mana dorks because a lot of them required green mana and produced green mana. I looked at Honored Hierarch for a good bit too but overall I felt that I wanted him to naturally have vigilance for him to be good enough because as it stands he cant ramp until turn 3 at the soonest which I felt was a little too slow to justify. Instead I looked at a few more of the green dorks that produce colors other than green as it should help me fix sooner as if I already have the green to play the dork its probably less concerning.
UPDATES:
Courser of Kruphix -> Azusa, Lost but Seeking this is a move from card advantage to tempo. I have some concerns about it still given I am not running a high land count but I might potentially draw 4 cards a turn so I want to be able to play extra lands I get from them. Azusa almost pays for herself off of the extra land drops she can manage.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros -> Avacyn's Pilgrim I think Kytheon is really cool but to be honest, I want more speed. I like the pilgrim as if I have the green to play it it picks me up another color.
Ohran Viper -> Elves of Deep Shadow The viper I think is really cool. That said, it felt a little slow when I was looking at it in the list. More fast tempo plz. I like that these elves give me access to ramp and they give me a color other than green.
Lurking Predators -> Militia's Pride the predators is good with this many creatures in list but honestly a lot of my creatures are cheap to cast which diminishes its effect some. I fought with myself a little as to if I wanted Bitterblossom here or Militia's Pride. Bitterblossom seemed better on curve but even then it leads to some downside over a 2 drop creature as on turn 3 you can attack and connect with Bitterblossom. When it came down to it, I felt that Bitterblossom was more of a defensive play where I felt that I could be much more aggressive with Militia's Pride as well as I felt it was a better draw into card.
Abzan Charm -> Vengevine I kept feeling like I had a little too much spot removal and while I think this charm is cool, I wanted to drop one of my spot removal effects. I felt like Vengevine seemed like a good creature for a deck that is chaining through draw with a high creature count. It doesn't pick up on my evasion but its fast to recover for me if I get wrathed and honestly it takes a fairly big creature to wall it off.
Austere Command -> True Conviction I felt like I could do with less wraths and more speed. So, double strike and the lifegain from this will also help me live longer. It is hard to pick up output without buffing lol.
Phyrexian Arena -> Ad Nauseam I felt that while I normally love Phyrexian Arena, it felt a little slow for the lower mana curve of the deck. I am also fairly action packed in the turns 3 and 4 as my current plan so its really like 5 mana before I would have the time to cast it at which point the low costs in deck should help offset for Ad Nauseam nicely.
Other Considerations:
Null Profusion / Recycle - in general, these tools could help if I stumble. The odd thing is that if my commanders are working, I feel like these effects might be awkward to play so they are some sort of an odd backup or alternative to Tymna. I think they could be good with the low costs and the high density of additional land drop options I have but at the same time, they felt a little unnatural assuming things are working.
Skullclamp - because... its clamp and I have small ***** in here.
Wound Reflection - its a damage output boost without buffing stats. Its nice that it could be dropped after combat after Tymna's draw.
Ensnaring Bridge - it really screws with other attacks. The problem is I am more afraid of wraths and control mechanics than racing other aggro / voltron decks. I could totally see this though depending on what sort of decks you face. It nicely counters some strategies such as voltron and the mass pumping tokens in a lot of cases.
Living Death - it gives a little bounce back when facing wraths. I felt like I wanted to possibly push more sac outlets and or graveyard hate though for it to be quite as good as I wanted it. It depends a little on the meta though as well on how good this is.
Honored Hierarch - I like it after its renown but the fact that it doesn't have vigilance until it connects kind of kills it for me. Its just not quite as good as I want it to be to run it as it means turn 3 before I have it online which felt too slow to me.
Llanowar Elves / Elvish Mystic / Fyndhorn Elves - they require green and provide green. I think there is room to consider them still as they still can connect for damage but I liked the dorks that cost one and provide non green mana more.
Bitterblossom - cheap, efficient bodies. What isn't to love.
Den Protector - early game or when you just have plenty to do it can be dropped as a 2 drop with some evasion. The evasion can help connect before Kondo is in play as well. Later in the game it can act as recursion. I like the idea of its versatility.
Bloom Tender - I like that on turn 3 I could cast Tymna and then tap for 3 more mana with this. Its a good bit of mana on a 2 mana dork. It is a little different from a 2 mana attacker though. I also kind of prefer to on turn 2 be ramped into more things rather than doing something extra on top of my commander turn 3. Its potentially very powerful but it comes with the trade off of not getting an attacker out of it as well as being a little slower.
Steward of Valeron - It gives me an attacker play on turn 2 as well as a post combat ramp. It seems like it could be decent.
Viridian Zealot - it can be dropped on curve and used as a beater and can at a later time of my choosing be used as removal. I like it in a lot of ways over Reclimation Sage because it can curve in sooner and be used on demand.
EDIT: I forgot that green actually has one drop creatures that tempo lands from hand. I stumbled over them as I was looking for cards yesterday so here are some additional updates.
Spore Frog -> Skyshroud Ranger both are sort of tempo creatures but one is to prevent another fast deck from killing me. For now lets just try to move fast and see how things go. I like the idea of spore frog but I think its better to just move faster as it stands.
Let me know if you have ideas. Offhand I am sort of going creature swarm, I am contemplating possibly some sort of overrun tactics yet but for now I am really still spit balling things.
UPDATE: Here is version #2. I spoiled the original list I had together as a lot of changes have gone through so rather than trying to keep track of everything in and out I will just spoil the early draft I had.
This version is a few cards over but its very close to 100 cards right now.(fixed) Its still a draft version as this has not been tested but I had more time to work on it so I got it into a better spot with a little more time and attention. You might notice with this version I pushed a little more fast mana with the moxes. I am trying to move fast and draw cards where I can I guess.1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa
CREATURES (36)
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Sunblade Elf
1 Viscera Seer
1 Bloodghast
1 Dark Confidant
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Grim Flayer
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Jazal Goldmane
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Vengevine
1 Reveillark
1 Silklash Spider
1 Whisperwood Elemental
1 Great Oak Guardian
1 Sun Titan
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
ENCHANTMENT (9)
1 Exploration
1 Militia's Pride
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Attrition
1 Aura Shards
1 Necropotence
1 Glare of Subdual
1 True Conviction
INSTANT (6)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Golgari Charm
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Beast Within
1 Ad Nauseam
SORCERY (5)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Retribution of the Meek
1 Yawgmoth's Will
PLANESWALKER (1)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
LAND (33)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Command Tower
1 Concealed Courtyard
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Fetid Heath
2 Forest
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Godless Shrine
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Woodland Cemetery
Some of the cards I had a little more time spent with considering for the list still yet are:
1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa
CREATURES (43)
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Viscera Seer
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Bloodghast
1 Cartel Aristocrat
1 Dark Confidant
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Grim Flayer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Precinct Captain
1 Relic Seeker
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Withered Wretch
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Ohran Viper
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Spawnwrithe
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Siege Rhino
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Reveillark
1 Silklash Spider
1 Wingmate Roc
1 Sun Titan
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
ENCHANTMENT (9)
1 Oversold Cemetery
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Aura Shards
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Glare of Subdual
1 Lurking Predators
1 True Conviction
INSTANT (8)
1 Dark Ritual
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abzan Charm
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Beast Within
1 Utter End
SORCERY (9)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Lead the Stampede
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Nature's Resurgence
1 Shamanic Revelation
1 Living Death
1 Collective Unconscious
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Command Tower
1 Bayou
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I recommend pairing Tymna with a blue partner so you can run cards like Wingcrafter and Flying Men and then take extra turns with cards like Time Warp. Sort of like a fair version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Creatures:
Odric, Master Tactician - Great to get your little dudes through, expands on the "cant block me" theme from Kondo.
Knight of the Reliquary - Fits the beater prereq for early game, turns into a nice land tutor and huge beater mid to late-game.
Anafenza, the Foremost - Amazing hatebear, shuts down all graveyard tactics. Not under 2 power, but she's in your colors and I'd run her. Shutting off gy's is just awesome.
Champion of Lambholt - More "can't block me." Gets very, very, very big.
Eternal Witness - Staple, self explanatory.
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - Helps a final push, especially if you've got a ton of mana through Mirari's Wake or whatnot, if you throw that in.
Silverblade Paladin - Helps your tiny dudes push more damage through early game. Also fits Kondo's prereq.
Lightning Greaves - I feel like you'll want these or swiftfoot boots, maybe both. Especially in an aggressive deck.
Merciless Eviction - Gets rid of pretty much any problem you want to get rid of.
My list is here if you're interested in taking a peak. Maybe you'll find a spark or two in there. I certainly think I could slap these two in as commanders of the deck and they'd do fantastic (in the sense of, fantastically as a casual deck xD).
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
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Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
More Lifelink - its an option. Offhand I was trying to work with a fast early game beater approach where I hope to run my opponents down with small threats and put them on the defensive rather than worrying about my own life total. In some ways you could consider it a bit of a suicide black approach.
Evasion - Kondo also offers evasion and in a lot of ways I dont think Tymna needs blue so much as evasion to connect. The amount of draw that Tymna offers in a lot of ways can mimic having access to blue. To be honest I am playing a little bit of an Edric mentality here but I also helped back when Edric came out to develop him into what he became so while I like Edric I also dont want to actually play edric. In a lot of ways playing Abzan with similar tactics seems interesting to me in part because I dont have counterspells or extra turns so it does not feel as oppressive.
I started my approach and I originally started with somewhat of a hatebear approach that slowly moved more towards just some sort of a suicide black aggro abzan list. My goal with my creatures was build arround curving well, drawing more cards off of Tymna, gaining evasion from Kondo, and just bringing life totals down as I went.
Odric, Master Tactician - I absolutely love Odric so believe me when I say I put consideration into him. I used to play an Odric deck so he is very satisfying and fun to play with. That said, he does not pair well with Kondo. As an alternative means of gaining evasion he is slow as he needs to attack as well where as Kondo in play provides my evasion. I also dont have that much power on my creatures which makes the controlling blocks awkward as it leaves me mostly with trying to send them through. Due to these reasons I felt he didn't quite fit here.
Knight of the Reliquary - I had it in the list when I first built it. I ended up cutting it because I felt that I was going to mostly avoid using much for utility lands and as soon as it grows it is no longer evasive. I think it could work but I am somewhat demanding on my landbase as far as getting me colors on curve so I was avoiding a lot of utility lands because of that.
Anafenza, the Foremost - It could work as a grave hate effect. The problem with it offhand is that it grows creatures to no longer be evasive or you have to avoid using its counters. It is also a little off on getting my commanders out offhand.
Champion of Lambholt - It could work. I always felt its a little slow to pick up enough value for it to work though.
Eternal Witness - good call I totally forgot to add witness.
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - I did a lot of considerations of pump effects. I considered him, overrun, and probably about 7 other mass pump effects. I did in the end add a few to my list but I tried to keep to effects that fit the deck a little better and or dropped in sooner. Great Oak Guardian, Jazal Goldmane, and Sunblade Elf are a few of the creatures I added to try to buff my creatures up a little. I felt that these were some of the mass buff effects that were easier to drop whenever I could and or use my evasion still. I might still consider more mass pump effects but I wanted to focus on my main goal which was a well oiled machine before I tried mashing more big haymaker buffs into the deck.
Silverblade Paladin - I had it in my original build but I felt that three drops were a little awkward with my objectives of the deck as well as the fact that more often than not my creatures are not connecting for that much damage. I might consider it still in the future as it does do decent work on anything that has triggers on doing damage (the few I have).
Lightning Greaves - I did try to make room for it but in the end I just felt that the shroud didnt matter enough for me to justify it. It could be used for the haste but the slow down of me casting it felt like as much of a delay as waiting a turn to attack with most things.
Merciless Eviction - I decided to run a lot of power checking wraths rather than outright wraths. It might bite me in the ass when it comes to tokens but in general I felt like it was a good move as far as a tempo deck went. In the end, a tempo style of suicide black deck was sort of the feel I was going for with this.
Thanks for the reminder, I tend to focus more on a well moving deck rather than how I will get about winning. I am still light on these effects for the time being but I added a few mass pump effects that I felt functioned a little better in the deck. I looked at more traditional things like Overrun as well as things like Craterhoof Behemoth (a card I detest) and things like Beastmaster's Ascension. In the end I tried to go with some creature based versions that would be able to be played out on curve and Great Oak Guardian who is my one exception who gives me a mass pump at instant speed with an untap. I may consider more effects but I also felt that big buff effects also interfered with the natural flow of the deck so I kept it light for the time being.
You could pair infect with a deck like this. One of the big issues though with infect is that there are not many "good" infect cards in the card pool and its an all or nothing effect in that you will probably be on your own and have to infect kill players entirely on your own. I am not a big fan of infect in this format as I just dont feel it has much for consistancy. There are a few commanders I feel can pull it off better but I dont see a lot of synergy with it here other than using the lesser infect creatures and giving them evasion. I would rather use 1-2 infect creatures in a deck that has synergy with them with a higher chance of killing people with them than try to force a lot of small ones here.
I considered it. Hypnotic Specter being the bread and butter of them. The unfortunate thing about spectrers is that they mostly fall into the 3-4 mana range which is when I am somewhat action jammed playing out my commanders. I am not willing to play a specter over my commanders with my current gameplan as its more effective to curve well into my commanders. Because of this most of the 3-4 mana creatures are ones I have accepted may be played after my commanders and with that I felt that the specters felt too slow for.
I considered him but in the end I went with Jazal Goldmane who can also pump after blocks but costs less mana and pumps bigger for less mana (to drop and use in the same turn). I also felt that Jazal was a better drop as I felt he could be used outside of his pumps where as I felt that Kamahl was a lot more expensive. Its possible to run Kamahl for wrath defense but he is so green heavy I felt that would be hard to execute here.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I also want a Naya build with Kondo and Tana Bloodsower!
So my suggestion is don't sleep on bombs with morph. While looking for cards for Kondo/Tana I realized Red Akroma would sneak in under Kondo as a morph, then after the blocker step, turn her over!
Also Austere Command seems good as I believe a lot of the flyers played in commander are 4 cmc or higher, and most of your creatures go under this threshold.
I'd remove Great Oak Guardian as it potentially gives the opponents a creature they can copy that has "reach". Subtle, but one of those things that can come up. Obviously Silklash Spider also has reach, but she is just so effective to clearing flyers that she is a must stay in.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
(Also known as Xenphire)
https://deckstats.net/decks/61157/599643-sidar-tymna
A more hate-bearsy approach with a few more engines thrown in. Still don't think I have the numbers on redundant effects down yet.
Also the list above in the first post is I think 102 cards sans the Commanders? Meaning 3 need to be removed?
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Thanks
It's going to take a bit of adjusting still but I look forward to playtesting with things.
Spot Removal - Its an option and an idea. It depends a little on how quickly people are putting up flying blockers though as well as how many of them they can put up. I tried to as much as possible go with versatile removal when it comes to the spot removal I do run. Its possible to consider Attrition yet which is on my radar as a means of trading my creatures off with problem creatures on my opponents side. There honestly are not that many good black flyers that see play in commander that wouldn't die to a 2/2 anyways. It comes down a little bit to how much early game flyers you see in a meta as to how much you need to deal with it. I also considered something like Downdraft as an answer to it.
Island of Wak-Wak - its more that its a land that doesn't provide mana in my mind.
Austere Command - good call. I didn't really think about the fact that I can sculpt it around most of my deck. I will probably swap that in for Fell the Mighty. I think Fell the Mighty is also very flavorful but its vulnerable to spot removal and Austere Command can clear out artifacts or enchantments as I need.
Behind the Scenes - I did oddly enough look at it for a bit. It could still be worth considering but I dont know how often I will need alternative evasion. I might just play it by ear and see how much of a problem it is for me. It may be an issue for me if people are targeting Kondo as I attack or something of that sort but shy of that I dont know how much of a problem it will be.
Hate Bears - I started off my list looking a little more hate bear heavy. I paired it down some because I felt that hatebears is still a tactic that works by stall tactics. I dont know what direction is the right way to go but I wanted to avoid getting too heavy on 3 & 4 drop creatures because I planned to curve into things a little more. I didn't want to have a lot of 3 & 4 drops because I will get action jammed with them where as I want to be playing one and two drops more consistantly. Ethersworn Canonist / Eidolon of Rhetoric these two actually sound harmful to your own list so I would recommend reconsidering because a deck like this relies on drawing and playing more things a turn which is counter intuitive to what they do. I also did consider a few of the creatures you have in there but the zero attack creatures such as Birds of Paradise and Blood Artist seemed concerning to me as well because they cant naturally connect for damage. I considered running mana dorks like Lanowar Elves but I will have to think about it a bit more. I should have a fairly strong fixing landbase but I dont know about one drop dorks that give only one type of mana offhand.
Again, I dont know if hatebears is a good idea or not. I think some of the stronger ones are cool but at the same time I ended up cutting some like Glowrider because they action jammed me with Tymna and I felt they lost some of their effect when they are not curved into play early. Some of your card ideas are interesting though as I had not considered Phyrexian Revoker. Sakura-Tribe Elder is another one that for some reason I dismissed but I think it still has some good potential. Containment Priest is also one I go back and forth on a bit which I will have to put more thought into.
Yes, my list is still over count. I need to go back and make a few hard last cuts to get to 100 cards yet. I will see what I can do as I would like to get on to testing this soon.
EDIT: Made some adjustments to get to 100 cards and tweak a few things.
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Also I think a deck like this may want Gaea's Cradle, could be very powerful, especially considering all the recursive dudes you have, means that you likely arr always going to have some creatures lying aroud.
I wanted to take advantage of playing so many creatures, and both Glowrider and Rhalia are great at protecting your board and slowing your opponents down in order to get a few more hits in. At least that is the idea behind them. Again, only testing will really tell if this is the casse.
Another direction I considered going wss the arustocrats direction with mass recursion like rally the ancestors. I feel a deck like that could have a lot of play to it. Might not actually be better, but maybe more fun.
Edit: Also surprised not to see Mirror Entity find its way into your list. I do like Whisperwood Elemental though. Seems good here.
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Eidolon of rhetoric and ethersworn Canonist - keep in mind the first spell they play might be a wrath. I dont like them because they are not something you should want to drop on curve so it means you have to be doing well for them to be good and then it depends on what your opponents have in hand / can do. Their effects naturally favor decks that do not draw a lot of cards and or want to chain cast things in a turn which is my concern offhand.
Gaea's Cradle - its probably a good call here. I didnt think of it at first but its a good one to add. I will see if I cant get my hands on one but rolling into the holiday season seems like not the time I am going to drop the money on a copy. I rarely run green token based strategies which is where this shines so up until now I have not justified its purchase. It probably is worth having here though.
Glowrider & friends - my issue is mostly with the fact that they cost 3. I totally agree with the 2 mana Thalia, Guardian of Thraben but the fact that they cost 3 means you need to drop them behind curve. I just dont feel like they buy enough time when you are not even planning to drop them on curve if you get them in an opening hand. I have a Grand Arbiter Augustin IV deck and I can tell you that these sort of effects only stall. If you are not using them on curve they get a LOT less effective and that is my concern with them offhand is that they dont do nearly as well if you dont curve into them and with a 3 mana commander it complicates the plan. My goal for 3 mana creatures was to have them still be worth playing as a turn 5 play if need be and I just didn't get the impression that they were going to do as well later. I also have to go in assuming that 1000 bodies in play to achieve something is not a good result as we dont have counterspells to stop wraths (yes I know white technically has a few).
Sac Outlets - I also considered going further into this plan. Its possible to pull off some Living Death fun if you have a sac outlet and if you did want to go this direction Scavenging Ooze + Withered Wretch + Anafenza could all be very strong in putting opponents off of their graveyards. I felt it was a little too complicated to make it work though. It felt like it had a lot of cards I would need to include to make it work right and overall it didnt feel like the payoff was worth the amount of cards I would have needed to add to this plan. Its possible though to make some sort of a grave pact concept work here though too.
Mirror Entity - I did some quick math and it honestly wasn't much different from Jazal Goldmane. Lets say you have 9 mana (could play and execute either). Mirror Entity would drop and make your creatures into 6/6s. For this to make sense to do you would probably still want somewhere in the range of 5+ creatures who can attack to justify doing it. If you had Jazal Goldmane the buff would be about the same and you can still activate it after defense is made. My justification towards Jazal was more because I felt that it was on a better body that I would be more willing to play outside of comboing dropping and using it in one turn. Jazal has a better top end to it and on the lower end of the buff you probably dont want to have Mirror Entity anyways. I considered both and while both are an option I felt like I was less likely to slow roll a Mirror Entity as it just felt worse to me. Mirror Entity is probably one of the most likely considerations beyond what I have currently though but I just felt it had less versatility in what it does over what I decided to use instead.
EDIT: I also wonder if you might want to turn Karmic Guide into something like Yawgmoth's Will. Karmic fits the theme of the deck but honestly most of the creatures in the deck are cheap to cast and you really dont ever want to pay for the echo of Karmic shy of some sort of black voltron commander sitting across from you. The cost efficiency of Karmic seems bad here when so many other things give better rez for cheap creatures. Yawgmoth's Will only costs 3 mana so if you wanted a 2 drop then you are the same mana in to get that first creature and it benefits more from surplus mana as well as the cheap cost of cards.
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Though the reason I have Karmic Guide in there is twofold:
1) I want some kind of combo finisher as the game goes long, and this is one way to do just that. In addition, it is a good bit of value on its own.
2) 5 cmc- good for Birthing Pod chain. I run one in my list, and there are a few cards I put into the deck to support it that wouldn't be in the list normally (looking at you Solemn). Curving into this with Pod as a top end seems pretty good.
Mirror Entity is an easier tutor target however (Recruiter of the Guard), and scales better with Gaea's Cradle (if you decide to include it) for more activations.
I'm a little unsure on Yawgmoth's Will, what is it doing for you that Karmic Guide can't do? I can't imagine bringing back 3 or 4 creatures with it in one turn, and it doesn't exactly give you the ability to recover from wraths very well in addition to not being able to infinite....
Why no Mentor of the Meek and Bygone Bishop? Too mana intensive?
EDIt: Mother of Runes has a lot of potential in a deck like this as well, any reason not to include it?
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Bane of Progress can win games.
Umezawa's Jitte was good, just might be a tad slow. The ability to provide reach and removal can be key though.
The manabase is still rough. I felt a disproportionate amount of my deck was white and green and consistently wanted more of both.
The sac outlets I was running were less than good. Removing some of them now. I think Sadistic Hypnotist may want to remain in but the rest outside of Viscera Seer and Hypnotist may need to go.
Duskwatch Recruiter is too slow. The entire game I never activated it because the deck already has enough draw that is all better than this guy I felt.
Land Destruction was brutal. Acidic Slime and Wasteland really kept opponents on the same level as I. That along with Bane of Progress destroying mana rocks is the reason I won. Makes me want to add Life from the Loam to my list.
I need more single target removal. I feel Fiend Hunter be a good addition, because of the potential for infinite combos and because with a sac outlet, you can do some real damage on opponents' boards.
Does Volrath's Stronghold belong here? I feel like it could be very good but spending 3 mana like that seems rather expensive.....
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Thalia vs Glowrider - its entirely in their ability to curve well. The difference between a plan of a turn 2 and a turn 5 play makes a world of difference. Consider that most players will ramp in the 2-3 mana range when you consider a lot of ramp. The difference between dropping Thalia and Glowrider is quite different when your glowrider is not something that would hit play on turn 3. Being a two drop puts her a lot more relevant in cutting off mana stones and green ramp not to mention the random disruption to a lot of other strategies. What it really boils down to for me is that this deck is trying to act quickly and be disruptive / bring people down in their life totals. If you slow them down even a turn it can mean that you might be able to kill them or set up an effect that will keep them from blowing up your creatures. The problem with these small scale tax effects is that they really need to come in early to make their impact worthwhile when you are looking for aggro swarm tactics. The difference in their costs is a large difference in how good they are.
Karmic Guide - my problem with the guide is that if you are not abusing creatures it does not feel very good here. I have played creature abuse with Karmic / Birthing Pod tactics, it just feels like it slows the deck down a little which I dont know if that is a direction this can really nicely go. My old Jenara deck used to play creature abuse tactics but I just dont know if these commanders can really nicely go that direction. Its definately a different direction than what I am trying for in my own list. These decks tend to be a lot more ETB / leaves play based creatures with sac outlets, skullclamps, and such like that.
Mirror Entity - I will keep an eye on the entity. Its not something I am going to worry about yet but it does seem good with the cradle (I need to buy one of those).
Yawgmoth's Will - its a lot stronger when you look at the fact that it lets you cast multiple cards from graveyard. This list is going off of a very low mana cost and it lets you do a lot more in your turn as well. Recovering a land, casting instants / sorcery / artifacts / enchantments are all strong moves too. My issue with Karmic is that unless you play the creature abuse style of deck the body that comes with the guide itself generally isnt that great. I would also normally want to be recovering like 5+ mana creatures with karmic for it to really feel good but here we are so heavy on like 2 drops I dont know it gets there.
Mentor of the Meek and Bygone Bishop - its a matter of speed. Both of them are 3 drops so they would be off curve and then it involves a lot of "extra" mana spent to do the drawing. Being that Tymna has draw included as the commander I am not sure how much additional draw I need offhand. I think they are flavorful and could come in but until I get around to playing this I felt they were somewhat slow to do their thing.
Mother of Runes - I have honestly never liked Mother of Runes. So, if you drop her on curve, when you go to play Tymna I assume you intend to keep her up as protection. The problem with this idea is that she is now stuck untapped to respond. That means she isn't attacking and is just there to prevent spot removal really. At the same time, you could run Benevolent Bodyguard or Sylvan Safekeeper who can attack and protect. More than anything though, my concern is not spot removal but wraths so its part of why I decided to forego some of the protection from spot removal because I felt that it was less of a concern to me as it stood. If you want protection from spot removal, I still feel that Mother of Runes is not the answer because again, she has a longer time before she can activate and she requires you to over commit to the board further to stop spot removal when sweepers would be more of my concern.
Thanks for the game report. I will try to do one myself when I get my list up and running. Volrath's seems a little awkward if you stick to low cost creatures as most of them are not worth spending the time to set back up to the top deck and it complicates the manabase which already needs to perform really well every game.
Just a few changes I wanted for my list for the time being. I will see what I can do about getting a cradle yet.
CHANGES:
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UPDATES:
Other Considerations:
EDIT: I forgot that green actually has one drop creatures that tempo lands from hand. I stumbled over them as I was looking for cards yesterday so here are some additional updates.
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