So, after a lot of testing win conditions that for one reason or another I didn't like... I think I finally have an idea of what to test.
Before, I wanted to try Time Sieve, but I never had the modular density or the artifact token generators to support it. It is now time to revisit it. A modular setup plus a Genesis Chamber practically almost goes infinite by itself. However, I need to acquire one first.
- Daretti, Scrap Savant (The -2 is not as necessary in this list and I'm probably be more keen on playing Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas if you wanted an additional planeswalker option. We also have plentiful options for artifact-friendly walkers)
- Umezawa's Jitte - I need something that offers harder removal
- Scarecrone - It often just drew me an extra card every now and then. Second ability is very rarely used
- Aetherworks Marvel - I didn't get too much time to try this, but it does require a modular setup, and I can only afford to have so many of those in the deck. Cards like Time Sieve can work with just artifact token generators by themselves.
- Hellkite Igniter - just costed too much
- Vandalblast - I never overloaded it. I often needed a clean boardwipe rather than an artifact wipe.
+ Dack Fayden - He steals manarocks and costs 1 less. His looting is also much better than Daretti's. He accelerates and disrupts at the same time. Also, he steals graveyard hate that was meant for you.
+ Arcane Denial, Swan Song - Counterspells. The way you lose is when people ignore you and go over the top with their own uninteractive plan. Don't let them
+ Terminate - I kind of need it. I would play Galvanic Blast to be on-theme but again you need to respond to people playing to their own strengths.
+ Precursor Golem - It is 9 power for 5 mana that often becomes 12 power. You don't mind the tokens being killed off because they are expendable. It also helps fuel a lot of the deck's win conditions and is easier to cast than Myr Battlesphere. Oblivion Stone - You have a lot of artifact tutors. Sometimes, you need to get a wipe. This will get you there, although it hurts losing the mana rocks. At least your creatures will survive. It will answer all kinds of gravehate and can be activated at instant speed.
This update basically added a lot of answers after getting punched once too hard by uninteractive combo or multiple pieces of graveyard hate.
EDIT: Actually, revoker seems VERY good here. It stops a lot of abilities and you can change what you name by sacrificing it. Sounds like I got a reason to give Duplicant the boot!
Small update. As it turns out, Time Sieve is bonkers good in a deck where you realistically permanently lose around 2 artifacts per activation, in a deck where Cranial Plating regularly hits for 10-15. It is so good that, while it isn't technically my best deck, everyone else hates it now.
I think my cuts are as follows
- Greater Gargadon: It is a decent sac outlet, but the limited use portion of it is a big downside. However, the fact that they can't interact with it may make me reconsider this decision in the future.
- Duplicant: I have more instant speed removal and I still have black gearhulk as the lifegain is relevant. This and black gearhulk are interchangeable based on need.
Adding
+ Phyrexian Revoker: It stops a lot of general-centric strategies and a lot of gravehate. It can also be reset to name something else once the problem is eliminated.
+ Time Sieve: This is the win condition I was always looking for. It isn't unfeasible to take infinite turns or at least enough turns to deliver lethal beatdown damage to opponents. Even just using this as a sort of "2 mana Time Stretch" is very strong and it is rare that you need to sacrifice it to its own effect. This is Marchesa Affinity after all, we will have a lot of artifacts. Goes absolutely nuts with Genesis Chamber.
The curve is now low enough that cutting a land is actually feasible. Probably for another sac outlet. Could also put Gargadon back and be okay with it. I seem to flood a lot now with the deck. At least the deck doesn't ever need to mulligan aggressively, which is a sweet feeling compared to something like Xenagod.
Lastly, I added a small How to Play manual to better express how the games typically work with this deck. I think it will fill its intended role well.
If it weren't for the echo, I would definitely slam in Extruder. It might be worth it even with the echo, because you can sac another artifact to get it a +1/+1, let it die to the echo, and have it come back at end of turn with Marchesa.
No Lodestone Golem?
If it weren't for the echo, I would definitely slam in Extruder. It might be worth it even with the echo, because you can sac another artifact to get it a +1/+1, let it die to the echo, and have it come back at end of turn with Marchesa.
No Lodestone Golem?
Hope of Ghirapur is very legit in certain metagames. If you really need to lock out one specific player, the option is there.
I do not run Etherium Scupltor or Foundry inspector because they only help me cast artifacts and not some of the nonartifact spells in this deck. However, it isn't entirely wrong to run the former if you find yourself with a ton of cheap artifacts, but if they are cheap, you shouldn't have too much trouble casting them with a regular mana rock anyway.
I ran Kudoltha Forgemaster in the original iterations of the deck. The problems with it were twofold. First, it was a 5 drop that required a tap to activate to get an artifact and I had nothing insanely expensive to cheat out with it, and secondly saccing 3 artifacts is only reasonable if I'm already sort of set up. The setup cards are usually what I tutor for anyway. Arcum Daggson is more reasonable being a lower cmc and only needing one artifact, but it costs quite a bit of money and being the same cmc as Marchesa is actually somewhat awkward. Activated abilities that tap are generally discouraged because they can conflict with the need to add a counter via dethrone.
Metalwork Colossus was in the pre-alpha version of the deck and got cut pretty quickly because I only ever wanted it in the graveyard. I still found it costing at least 6 or more on average and this card is only insane when you are paying around 3 for it.
Trading Post is slow, but the repeatable recursion makes a lot of our mana sources and utility artifacts hard to kill to go along with the creatures that are hard to kill. It also helps draw cards when we don't need the recursion! I've used this with Nihil Spellbomb to lock my opponents out of having graveyards to abuse.
Reshape I consider almost worse than Whir of Invention in every way. Even though the average cmc you want to grab is 2, it still costs 4 mana to essentially Tinker, with it costing more the higher the cmc of the card you want to fetch. Whir on average will cost similarly to a Fabricate but can also allow your artifact creatures to help reduce the cost of whatever you are playing. However, Transmute Artifact is busted and I would play that over Whir. It's just... very... very expensive.
Ancient Tomb and Cavern of Souls are reasonable cards, I just have them in Xenagod at the moment. Just be mindful of the colorless land count, because Inkmoth Nexus isn't replaceable in this deck.
Lodestone Golem I actually highly considered, and it can work, but it isn't as one-sided as it sounds with the number of nonartifact cards that I run in the deck.
Thanks for your response! I'm going to try to build this deck in the near future, and see how it goes! I have most of the cards, but there are several $15+ pieces I would have to pick up. Luckily, I already have all the lands...
So, we have a new tool! One that will probably make it into this deck because Tolarian Academy as a payoff is absolute busted. The condition is very easy to meet in this deck.
I also have cards that I want to cut. Bad Mike is still kinda ehh with all the artifact tutors. Combustible Gearhulk is also getting close to getting cut, but I could be wrong because I've simply never drawn it. I'm also almost okay with cutting a land with how easy it is to empty your hand in this deck. I want space for the new card and my Greater Gargadon back because people have been aggressively targeting my sacrifice outlets when they can.
I might actually flat out swap Combustible Gearhulk for Sandstone Oracle because the card draw then becomes more reliable. Then I can keep my big manarocks and have a bigger focus on emptying my hand to go for critical mass more easily. A goal that the new card can assist me in achieving...
Time Sieve is hyper busted and being a tutorable wincon means that it is now my win condition of choice.
Been reading up on this.
I'm wanting to build something new that I haven't seen much of (My god Hulk/Engine is boring) but am wondering how this holds up against top tier decks?
Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Been reading up on this.
I'm wanting to build something new that I haven't seen much of (My god Hulk/Engine is boring) but am wondering how this holds up against top tier decks?
Also what would it look like budgetless?
It isn't really a top tier deck. You're probably still better off playing Breya combos, because at least there you still have utility from your general.
All you get from this general is an engine or a combo piece.. Your combos aren't infinite here for the most part. Other than Time Sieve, which is insane for all the right reasons.. Time Sieve also requires critical mass, which may be hard to achieve.
It is still nonetheless probably the best Marchesa the Black Rose list simply because it doesn't need to attack to win. Or if it does, it is probably for 10 infect.
Been reading up on this.
I'm wanting to build something new that I haven't seen much of (My god Hulk/Engine is boring) but am wondering how this holds up against top tier decks?
Also what would it look like budgetless?
It isn't really a top tier deck. You're probably still better off playing Breya combos, because at least there you still have utility from your general.
All you get from this general is an engine or a combo piece.. Your combos aren't infinite here for the most part. Other than Time Sieve, which is insane for all the right reasons.. Time Sieve also requires critical mass, which may be hard to achieve.
It is still nonetheless probably the best Marchesa the Black Rose list simply because it doesn't need to attack to win. Or if it does, it is probably for 10 infect.
I think the biggest hurdle to overcome for this list is that it is hard to run interaction. You need a creature, sac outlet and a way to draw cards. That is a lot of cards just devoted to keep the engine going. Many pieces have fairly high cmc too so you can't play them particularly early.
Other problem is that gy hate is most likely game over if you can't get rid of it fast. Green based gy decks have efficient answers to gy hate but grixis really doesn't (counters are pretty much it).
I saw a guy play this pretty cool looking Marchesa Wizard tribal and it seemed strong. I'm not sure this is the best Marchesa list but I don't run this exact list (I run a more eggs and modular focused list) so I can't really say for sure.
Been reading up on this.
I'm wanting to build something new that I haven't seen much of (My god Hulk/Engine is boring) but am wondering how this holds up against top tier decks?
Also what would it look like budgetless?
It isn't really a top tier deck. You're probably still better off playing Breya combos, because at least there you still have utility from your general.
All you get from this general is an engine or a combo piece.. Your combos aren't infinite here for the most part. Other than Time Sieve, which is insane for all the right reasons.. Time Sieve also requires critical mass, which may be hard to achieve.
It is still nonetheless probably the best Marchesa the Black Rose list simply because it doesn't need to attack to win. Or if it does, it is probably for 10 infect.
I think the biggest hurdle to overcome for this list is that it is hard to run interaction. You need a creature, sac outlet and a way to draw cards. That is a lot of cards just devoted to keep the engine going. Many pieces have fairly high cmc too so you can't play them particularly early.
Other problem is that gy hate is most likely game over if you can't get rid of it fast. Green based gy decks have efficient answers to gy hate but grixis really doesn't (counters are pretty much it).
I saw a guy play this pretty cool looking Marchesa Wizard tribal and it seemed strong. I'm not sure this is the best Marchesa list but I don't run this exact list (I run a more eggs and modular focused list) so I can't really say for sure.
Agreed. I run some amount of it and gy hate is a problem, which is also why I run removal + phyrexian revoker. The enchantment forms of gy hate are obviously the most difficult to fight.
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - Okay, bad mike DOESN'T actually do anything when your stuff already has +1/+1 counters on them all the time most of the time. He's been acting like a paperweight in this deck, and this deck is THE exception that allows us to exclude him.
- Combustible Gearhulk - Not actually super reliable as a draw spell. People also seem to be okay with milling me just out of spite.
- Talisman of Indulgence - I needed space to fit in the utterly busted card I want to throw in, and I can't throw away wincons, draw, or removal.
+ Greater Gargadon - People have gotten into the habit of aggressively targeting my sac outlets. Putting this back in should do work
+ Sandstone Oracle - Normally playing this in a blue deck is blasphemous, but we can loop it as an artifact creature and all of our tutors get it. It's more reliable than gearhulk draw, although I wish there were a blue artifact creature that drew a ton of cards. When I want this, my hand will be close to empty.
+ Storm the Vault - If there was any deck (other than Breya) that this card was made for, it is this one.
Other than that, out of cards I want to make space for.. well, I want more draw effects.
Interesting choice of Sandstone Oracle. I guess you can abuse it with loops.
I've also cut Bad Mike from my deck, so don't feel bad about that. My curve is so aggressive that I can't use Bad Mike, unlike a midrange deck, which neither of us run (as the classic Marchesa deck).
If I'm going to pay six mana for a draw effect, I'd much rather draw 10-14 cards over two turns than spend 7 mana to draw... 2-3 cards.. This is not one of those decks that can empty its hand, so Oracle actually proves to be underpowered here. Way more so than comparable cards that are half of its CMC! Recurring Insight is just one of the best blue mass draw effects available and I want to test card draw ratios with effective budget variants before grabbing Consecrated Sphinx.
This is also another example of a common mistake of valuing synergy over power if the synergy card is not strong enough to outperform the power card.
This is a test. I've had this card and never played it before, yet this seems like the kind of deck it could work in. It attacks, blocks, and acts as a thran dynamo. Whir's triple blue cost was prohibitive and it often costed a lot of mana at once to use. I could just throw in another Talisman or a Worn Powerstone instead, but being a creature and adding 3 may have its benefits. It ramps and feeds win conditions better than regular mana rocks. Altars have proven to be strong in this deck and so a creature that makes any sac outlet act like a pseudo altar seems reasonable.
You legit don't own a Consphinx? Pick one up. The price got hammered hard by being in IMA, and it's one of those power lifter cards that go into just about any deck which matches the colour identity.
I've actually had a consphinx for a while (actually want a second one), but my playgroup has it banned for forever now. Although with the high proliferation of Recurring Insights and cards like Sire of Stagnation and Nezahal, Primal Tide (many of which were caused I urged people to run everywhere), I think it is a decision to revisit and something that we can let in again pretty soon.
Flipping Storm the Vault off of early mana rocks is fun. I've also actually been liking Cathodion, although sometimes it can be slightly awkward to use, but big mana is big mana, and having more stuff wins games.
The real test for today is finding spots for new Jhoira and Imperial Recruiter, but holy hell space is so tight that I even can't figure out the right cuts!
New Jhoira makes the cut even if cards like Vedalken Archmage were available before because well... a 0/2 body can't attack into the highest life total and keep the counter very often.
I think it's probably going to be revoker because I haven't been seeing insane targets lately that aren't lands. It isn't that effective against grave hate as a wipe with a Nihil Spellbomb out will still ruin my recursion. That... still doesn't account for the second spot. At least after finding that second spot my card draw for the deck is basically set.
just wanted to ask your opinion on tainted strike. i recently added greater gargadon and cranial plating to my version of the deck, which was already running mystical teachings for the counterspell package.
there are moments in games in which any creature could reach easily 9 power for a one shot kill.
other than this, is there anything other than br daretti for reliable and cheap creature removal? i would gladly use brittle effigy if it didn't exile itself.
A reasonable choice. Sometimes you might have this issue closing games out, and people usually don't expect you to instagib people, so having that surprise option is nice. I just don't have a lot of space for it.
BR Daretti is really good and nothing else I can think of comes this cheap and blows up artifacts AND creatures repeatedly.
I obtained an Imperial Recruiter and it does indeed seem like a pretty good choice in here. It hits 16/25 creatures, including the best combo starters like marionette master and ravager. Pretty awesome.
So far I've found the mana from Cathodion decent, but then I realized that there's a much stronger upgrade for the card available: Metalworker.
It is a 3 drop creature that taps to do stuff, but burst mana is simply insane. I also should prioritize finding it because it is a reserved list item.
Metalworker IS insane. pretty much the only reason i run ugin in my list, i had it out once on turn 4 and the game was pretty much decided then and there.
i am also testing burnished hart with just 5 basic lands in the deck. if the game goes as usual, then it's absolutely just sacrifice fodder, but i wished i could tutor for it when i didn't have it in the deck and was stuck at 3 lands until late game. when i had another game in the same situation, smuggler's copter helped me tons.
given also that i'm not running manarocks with the exception of sol ring and mana crypt, i can probably consider Etherium Sculptor or Foundry inspector.
edit: i was also wondering about noxious gearhulk vs duplicant. i went with the latter just because it's tutorable with imperial recruiter and goes around indestructable creatures.
is the list on the front page up to date? If not, is it possible to get a new one?
New Jhoira might be worth looking at to speed up card draw. Just a thought.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am R and U. I am both emotional and rational, valuing logic but following my gut when appropriate. At my best, I am intuitive and creative. At my worst, I am scattered and unpredictable.
Consecrated Sphinx is banned in my meta because people clone it a bit too much and I still do not have an Imperial Recruiter.
I also got the Battlebond lands. Say goodbye to those crappy filters.
Meteor Golem also solves my problem of not having easy artifact-tutorable enchantment removal. Looping it is simply ridiculous
Before, I wanted to try Time Sieve, but I never had the modular density or the artifact token generators to support it. It is now time to revisit it. A modular setup plus a Genesis Chamber practically almost goes infinite by itself. However, I need to acquire one first.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
- Daretti, Scrap Savant (The -2 is not as necessary in this list and I'm probably be more keen on playing Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas if you wanted an additional planeswalker option. We also have plentiful options for artifact-friendly walkers)
- Umezawa's Jitte - I need something that offers harder removal
- Scarecrone - It often just drew me an extra card every now and then. Second ability is very rarely used
- Aetherworks Marvel - I didn't get too much time to try this, but it does require a modular setup, and I can only afford to have so many of those in the deck. Cards like Time Sieve can work with just artifact token generators by themselves.
- Hellkite Igniter - just costed too much
- Vandalblast - I never overloaded it. I often needed a clean boardwipe rather than an artifact wipe.
+ Dack Fayden - He steals manarocks and costs 1 less. His looting is also much better than Daretti's. He accelerates and disrupts at the same time. Also, he steals graveyard hate that was meant for you.
+ Arcane Denial, Swan Song - Counterspells. The way you lose is when people ignore you and go over the top with their own uninteractive plan. Don't let them
+ Terminate - I kind of need it. I would play Galvanic Blast to be on-theme but again you need to respond to people playing to their own strengths.
+ Precursor Golem - It is 9 power for 5 mana that often becomes 12 power. You don't mind the tokens being killed off because they are expendable. It also helps fuel a lot of the deck's win conditions and is easier to cast than Myr Battlesphere.
Oblivion Stone - You have a lot of artifact tutors. Sometimes, you need to get a wipe. This will get you there, although it hurts losing the mana rocks. At least your creatures will survive. It will answer all kinds of gravehate and can be activated at instant speed.
CURRENTLY TESTING: Mirage Mirror and Time Sieve. Also have considerations for Phyrexian Revoker
This update basically added a lot of answers after getting punched once too hard by uninteractive combo or multiple pieces of graveyard hate.
EDIT: Actually, revoker seems VERY good here. It stops a lot of abilities and you can change what you name by sacrificing it. Sounds like I got a reason to give Duplicant the boot!
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I think my cuts are as follows
- Greater Gargadon: It is a decent sac outlet, but the limited use portion of it is a big downside. However, the fact that they can't interact with it may make me reconsider this decision in the future.
- Duplicant: I have more instant speed removal and I still have black gearhulk as the lifegain is relevant. This and black gearhulk are interchangeable based on need.
Adding
+ Phyrexian Revoker: It stops a lot of general-centric strategies and a lot of gravehate. It can also be reset to name something else once the problem is eliminated.
+ Time Sieve: This is the win condition I was always looking for. It isn't unfeasible to take infinite turns or at least enough turns to deliver lethal beatdown damage to opponents. Even just using this as a sort of "2 mana Time Stretch" is very strong and it is rare that you need to sacrifice it to its own effect. This is Marchesa Affinity after all, we will have a lot of artifacts. Goes absolutely nuts with Genesis Chamber.
The curve is now low enough that cutting a land is actually feasible. Probably for another sac outlet. Could also put Gargadon back and be okay with it. I seem to flood a lot now with the deck. At least the deck doesn't ever need to mulligan aggressively, which is a sweet feeling compared to something like Xenagod.
Lastly, I added a small How to Play manual to better express how the games typically work with this deck. I think it will fill its intended role well.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Why aren't you playing Hope of Ghirapur? Or Etherium Sculptor/Foundry Inspector? It seems like they would let you ramp like crazy. Kuldotha Forgemaster seems like an insane card in this deck, as it allows you to tutor a win-con (ravager, time-sieve, cranial plating) or maybe even a Noxious Gearhulk if you need removal.
If you don't want the Forgmaster, how about Arcum Daggson? I know he's kindof slow in this deck but he tutors almost everything that matters while being a sac-outlet.
Metalwork Colossus seems like a sweet card that can go on the beat-down if someone played a Stony Silence or something, and can also be an instant-speed sac outlet from your yard if you pitch it early.
I think Phyrexian Altar or Goblin Bombardment would be much superior sac outlets to Spawning Pit.
Is Trading Post worth its slot still? It might be a bit slow.
Reshape/Transmute Artifact seem like decent tutors, in addition to Whir of Invention.
Why no Ancient Tomb/Cavern of Souls?
If it weren't for the echo, I would definitely slam in Extruder. It might be worth it even with the echo, because you can sac another artifact to get it a +1/+1, let it die to the echo, and have it come back at end of turn with Marchesa.
No Lodestone Golem?
Hope of Ghirapur is very legit in certain metagames. If you really need to lock out one specific player, the option is there.
I do not run Etherium Scupltor or Foundry inspector because they only help me cast artifacts and not some of the nonartifact spells in this deck. However, it isn't entirely wrong to run the former if you find yourself with a ton of cheap artifacts, but if they are cheap, you shouldn't have too much trouble casting them with a regular mana rock anyway.
I ran Kudoltha Forgemaster in the original iterations of the deck. The problems with it were twofold. First, it was a 5 drop that required a tap to activate to get an artifact and I had nothing insanely expensive to cheat out with it, and secondly saccing 3 artifacts is only reasonable if I'm already sort of set up. The setup cards are usually what I tutor for anyway. Arcum Daggson is more reasonable being a lower cmc and only needing one artifact, but it costs quite a bit of money and being the same cmc as Marchesa is actually somewhat awkward. Activated abilities that tap are generally discouraged because they can conflict with the need to add a counter via dethrone.
Metalwork Colossus was in the pre-alpha version of the deck and got cut pretty quickly because I only ever wanted it in the graveyard. I still found it costing at least 6 or more on average and this card is only insane when you are paying around 3 for it.
Phyrexian Altar and Goblin Bombardment are both very respectable sacrifice outlets, but Spawning Pit helps all of the win conditions because it makes artifact creature tokens.
Trading Post is slow, but the repeatable recursion makes a lot of our mana sources and utility artifacts hard to kill to go along with the creatures that are hard to kill. It also helps draw cards when we don't need the recursion! I've used this with Nihil Spellbomb to lock my opponents out of having graveyards to abuse.
Reshape I consider almost worse than Whir of Invention in every way. Even though the average cmc you want to grab is 2, it still costs 4 mana to essentially Tinker, with it costing more the higher the cmc of the card you want to fetch. Whir on average will cost similarly to a Fabricate but can also allow your artifact creatures to help reduce the cost of whatever you are playing. However, Transmute Artifact is busted and I would play that over Whir. It's just... very... very expensive.
Ancient Tomb and Cavern of Souls are reasonable cards, I just have them in Xenagod at the moment. Just be mindful of the colorless land count, because Inkmoth Nexus isn't replaceable in this deck.
Lodestone Golem I actually highly considered, and it can work, but it isn't as one-sided as it sounds with the number of nonartifact cards that I run in the deck.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I also have cards that I want to cut. Bad Mike is still kinda ehh with all the artifact tutors. Combustible Gearhulk is also getting close to getting cut, but I could be wrong because I've simply never drawn it. I'm also almost okay with cutting a land with how easy it is to empty your hand in this deck. I want space for the new card and my Greater Gargadon back because people have been aggressively targeting my sacrifice outlets when they can.
I might actually flat out swap Combustible Gearhulk for Sandstone Oracle because the card draw then becomes more reliable. Then I can keep my big manarocks and have a bigger focus on emptying my hand to go for critical mass more easily. A goal that the new card can assist me in achieving...
Time Sieve is hyper busted and being a tutorable wincon means that it is now my win condition of choice.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I'm wanting to build something new that I haven't seen much of (My god Hulk/Engine is boring) but am wondering how this holds up against top tier decks?
Also what would it look like budgetless?
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
It isn't really a top tier deck. You're probably still better off playing Breya combos, because at least there you still have utility from your general.
All you get from this general is an engine or a combo piece.. Your combos aren't infinite here for the most part. Other than Time Sieve, which is insane for all the right reasons.. Time Sieve also requires critical mass, which may be hard to achieve.
It is still nonetheless probably the best Marchesa the Black Rose list simply because it doesn't need to attack to win. Or if it does, it is probably for 10 infect.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I think the biggest hurdle to overcome for this list is that it is hard to run interaction. You need a creature, sac outlet and a way to draw cards. That is a lot of cards just devoted to keep the engine going. Many pieces have fairly high cmc too so you can't play them particularly early.
Other problem is that gy hate is most likely game over if you can't get rid of it fast. Green based gy decks have efficient answers to gy hate but grixis really doesn't (counters are pretty much it).
I saw a guy play this pretty cool looking Marchesa Wizard tribal and it seemed strong. I'm not sure this is the best Marchesa list but I don't run this exact list (I run a more eggs and modular focused list) so I can't really say for sure.
Agreed. I run some amount of it and gy hate is a problem, which is also why I run removal + phyrexian revoker. The enchantment forms of gy hate are obviously the most difficult to fight.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - Okay, bad mike DOESN'T actually do anything when your stuff already has +1/+1 counters on them all the time most of the time. He's been acting like a paperweight in this deck, and this deck is THE exception that allows us to exclude him.
- Combustible Gearhulk - Not actually super reliable as a draw spell. People also seem to be okay with milling me just out of spite.
- Talisman of Indulgence - I needed space to fit in the utterly busted card I want to throw in, and I can't throw away wincons, draw, or removal.
+ Greater Gargadon - People have gotten into the habit of aggressively targeting my sac outlets. Putting this back in should do work
+ Sandstone Oracle - Normally playing this in a blue deck is blasphemous, but we can loop it as an artifact creature and all of our tutors get it. It's more reliable than gearhulk draw, although I wish there were a blue artifact creature that drew a ton of cards. When I want this, my hand will be close to empty.
+ Storm the Vault - If there was any deck (other than Breya) that this card was made for, it is this one.
Other than that, out of cards I want to make space for.. well, I want more draw effects.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I've also cut Bad Mike from my deck, so don't feel bad about that. My curve is so aggressive that I can't use Bad Mike, unlike a midrange deck, which neither of us run (as the classic Marchesa deck).
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
+ Recurring Insight
If I'm going to pay six mana for a draw effect, I'd much rather draw 10-14 cards over two turns than spend 7 mana to draw... 2-3 cards.. This is not one of those decks that can empty its hand, so Oracle actually proves to be underpowered here. Way more so than comparable cards that are half of its CMC! Recurring Insight is just one of the best blue mass draw effects available and I want to test card draw ratios with effective budget variants before grabbing Consecrated Sphinx.
This is also another example of a common mistake of valuing synergy over power if the synergy card is not strong enough to outperform the power card.
- Whir of Invention
+ Cathodion
This is a test. I've had this card and never played it before, yet this seems like the kind of deck it could work in. It attacks, blocks, and acts as a thran dynamo. Whir's triple blue cost was prohibitive and it often costed a lot of mana at once to use. I could just throw in another Talisman or a Worn Powerstone instead, but being a creature and adding 3 may have its benefits. It ramps and feeds win conditions better than regular mana rocks. Altars have proven to be strong in this deck and so a creature that makes any sac outlet act like a pseudo altar seems reasonable.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
Flipping Storm the Vault off of early mana rocks is fun. I've also actually been liking Cathodion, although sometimes it can be slightly awkward to use, but big mana is big mana, and having more stuff wins games.
The real test for today is finding spots for new Jhoira and Imperial Recruiter, but holy hell space is so tight that I even can't figure out the right cuts!
New Jhoira makes the cut even if cards like Vedalken Archmage were available before because well... a 0/2 body can't attack into the highest life total and keep the counter very often.
I think it's probably going to be revoker because I haven't been seeing insane targets lately that aren't lands. It isn't that effective against grave hate as a wipe with a Nihil Spellbomb out will still ruin my recursion. That... still doesn't account for the second spot. At least after finding that second spot my card draw for the deck is basically set.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
there are moments in games in which any creature could reach easily 9 power for a one shot kill.
other than this, is there anything other than br daretti for reliable and cheap creature removal? i would gladly use brittle effigy if it didn't exile itself.
BR Daretti is really good and nothing else I can think of comes this cheap and blows up artifacts AND creatures repeatedly.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
So far I've found the mana from Cathodion decent, but then I realized that there's a much stronger upgrade for the card available: Metalworker.
It is a 3 drop creature that taps to do stuff, but burst mana is simply insane. I also should prioritize finding it because it is a reserved list item.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
i am also testing burnished hart with just 5 basic lands in the deck. if the game goes as usual, then it's absolutely just sacrifice fodder, but i wished i could tutor for it when i didn't have it in the deck and was stuck at 3 lands until late game. when i had another game in the same situation, smuggler's copter helped me tons.
given also that i'm not running manarocks with the exception of sol ring and mana crypt, i can probably consider Etherium Sculptor or Foundry inspector.
edit: i was also wondering about noxious gearhulk vs duplicant. i went with the latter just because it's tutorable with imperial recruiter and goes around indestructable creatures.
New Jhoira might be worth looking at to speed up card draw. Just a thought.
It is with four exceptions. Here are the four changes I plan on making
Remove Recurring Insight and swap for Consecrated Sphinx
Remove Cathodion for Metalworker (pretty much an upgrade)
Remove Phyrexian Revoker for Imperial Recruiter
Remove Oblivion Stone for Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I also got the Battlebond lands. Say goodbye to those crappy filters.
Meteor Golem also solves my problem of not having easy artifact-tutorable enchantment removal. Looping it is simply ridiculous
- Cathodion
- Phyrexian Revoker
- Oblivion Stone
- Darkwater Catacombs
- Shadowblood Ridge
+ Metalworker
+ Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain
+ Meteor Golem
+ Morphic Pool
+ Luxury Suite
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.