Ty Mattel. You suggested a few good cards that I wasn't aware of and a few that would be better if I ran more enchantments. I only run 13 but they're typically very impactful. I also love me some sword of the animist but I don't run enough basics here.
Nature's Will reminds me of Bear Umbra which I'd rather run here over sofaf or nature's will due to the untap being on attack rather than after combat damage as well as totem armor. Good idea though. Hardened Scales is a card I've considered but it's a bit lower in power compared to effects that double counters. It's still a card that deserves testing though.
And back to the dilemma of what to drop in order to test cards. The list of test-worthy cards is getting longer but my list of cuttable cards isn't getting any bigger. Any suggestions for cuts? Phyrexian Arena is the only card I can think of personally.
Ok so looking through the list I've come up with a small list of possible cards to cut in order to test other cards. So far 6 possible cuts with 10 cards to test. I want people's opinions on the possible cuts and my list of cards to test please.
Question : how do you generate tokens ? with only Avenger of Zendikar and Hornet Queen ??? if so, I suggest you add one of these, 'cause I find your token generation laking Increasing Devotion (personnal favorite ), Nomads' Assembly and/or Deploy to the Front
As far as my cards that need testing, I know Concordant Crossroads works for my opponents too but that's why it's more of a dirt cheap (cmc) finisher rather than a true haste enabler here. Also I own earthcraft, so why not lol I know it's good here. Bloodspore Thrinax I'm not sure about honestly but I'd want to test it at least as even +1+1 can make a huge difference as proven by Mirari's Wake whos anthem makes it better here than all of its 'better' options here. Also Mycoloth has proven that I can typically sac 3+ creatures at almost any time.
That last paragraph of cards isn't really what I'm looking for though as my commander can already move +1+1 counters around. This is nice for any +1+1 counters matter creatures like Mycoloth, Bloodspore Thrinax, Hangarback, etc but isn't worth devoting cards to (outside of forgotten ancient who's ability is free and can go wide).
Thanks for the update
The problem I see with Plainswalker is that, they're never otbf realy long for them to make a reliable profit... I would consider putting increasing devotion (5 token for five (mana) and you have a flashback for ten more !!) Also, since you might have HUGE creatures, in that case, I think Trample would be a nice addition to your mechanic.
My walkers usually stick around pretty long. Between spot removal, global hate like grave pact, a few wipes, and plenty of blockers they usually aren't in much danger. Add to that the fact that in order for my opponents to survive they wipe the board a lot too, and my walkers put in some work.
My problem w/ increasing devotion (and most cards like it) is that it's sorcery speed and the tokens have to survive 3 turns typically. I'd rather keep Secure the Wastes for instant speed even if it amounts to 1 less token. But I don't think I need either honestly as my token production seems to be where I want it.
I think you would be better with kodama's reach or cultivate instead of Sylvan Scrying. The main reason for this is that you have 1 more land to play (either the same turn or the next), and you have 1 land that come ontbf (tapped...)
Just my opinion, but I'd keep Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite over Coat of Arms. Looking over your creature list, there are very few synergistic creature types (3 Fungus, 2 Elemental, 6 Human). You do have saproling, but to my mind it's a huge risk to take that noone else is running one of the myriad things that generate saprolings, or things like Verdeloth the Ancient, whereas by comparison Norn is more likely to wipe out saprolings or a weenie army on the other side of the board as soon as she hits the field. At the very least I'd suggest switching it out for Door of Destinies, which keeps the gains to only you.
I was just goldfishing my atraxa deck which has a similar theme of +1/+1 counters and I found a fun interaction that fits into ghave. Noosegraf mob and cathars crusade. The combo goes as such. With both on the field just cast a spell. It doesn't matter what type. The cast trigger off the mob removes a counter and puts a 2/2 zombie into play. Crusade then triggers on the token entering the battlefield and puts a +1/+1 counter on all of your creatures. So you in essence didn't really lose the counter from the mob and got a 3/3 zombie to go with it. And that's just for casting a spell. And bonus if it gets countered by your opponent because everything triggers a second time. The combo works even better if you have corpsejack menace on the field and you'll actually gain a counter on the mob on a the trigger from the crusade because menace will put a second counter on all of your creatures.
It seems like a decent interaction in Ghave, but Noosegraf is a bit slow for a 6 drop here and doesn't do much of anything without something like Cathar's Crusade already in play. I'm sure he's better with proliferate though.
Also, I've made a few changes to the deck and I've updated the decklist here at the top of page 3 and in my op to reflect these changes.
Out: Earthcraft, Deathreap Ritual, Coat of Arms, and Exotic Orchard.
In: Verdant Catacombs, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Champion of Lambholt, and Illusionist's Bracers
Out: Earthcraft, Deathreap Ritual, Coat of Arms, and Exotic Orchard.
In: Verdant Catacombs, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Champion of Lambholt, and Illusionist's Bracers
These are good changes. Champion is a...champion here. Glad you decided on Norn over Coat of Arms, to me that's a good decision. the Bracers should see lots of action too.
Noosegraf does quite a bit actually. Yes he's a 6 drop and there are definitely better 6 drops out there if you run your curve that high but he essentially turns from a 5/5 into 5 2/2's. If you're playing a token/go wide strategy which it looks like you are as a sub theme in the deck I think he works really well. I also agree that champion is amazing here. I also agree with an earlier post about sword of the animist. It can really help with fixing. Especially if you're short on a color. Looking at the mana base it does look solid but I'd still say it would fit nicely. Also a chromatic lantern is a must have in any 3+ color deck. Because you're playing with +1/+1 counters armory of iroas might be worth considering. I'm still trying to find a spot for it in atraxa. And a new card in debating on is walking ballista. Same cost as hangarback walker. It does cost 4 to put a counter on it but you can remove a counter to do 1 damage to creature or player.
Still gonna pass on Noosegraf. If you were trying to talk me into playing it in my Marchesa, the Black Rose deck that'd be a different story. Ty for the suggestion though.
Walking Ballista is a card I want to try but I'm patient enough to wait for it to rotate out of standard first. I know I'll need at least 1 for my Animar deck, it's good removal and a very reliable alt win con there.
@toc - Yeah I don't know why... but I always thought Champion's unblockable thing was on attack and his (and my) lack of haste turned me away. I've played with the card in several decks so I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Yay for brain farts. Solid addition seeing as it's a cheaper win con than I was running. As far as Elesh goes, she was cut in order to test another card, so that was more of a temporary thing. Bracer I've been meaning to test for awhile, it's essentially a personal doubling season when equipped to Ghave.
@toc - Yeah I don't know why... but I always thought Champion's unblockable thing was on attack and his (and my) lack of haste turned me away. I've played with the card in several decks so I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Yay for brain tarts. Solid addition seeing as it's a cheaper win con than I was running.
I always wrote it off too. All it takes is a proper read of the card to realise it is meant to be Ghave's right hand lady. If it doesn't get enormous you're not doing it right.
I've been proxying a copy with anyone that'd let me for several weeks now. Don't think of it as a typical haste enabler... it's a 1 cmc finisher. Well worth the inclusion if your strategy is go wide and swing as you and your army don't have to survive 3 opponents turns, you just go off.
I've been proxying a copy with anyone that'd let me for several weeks now. Don't think of it as a typical haste enabler... it's a 1 cmc finisher. Well worth the inclusion if your strategy is go wide and swing as you and your army don't have to survive 3 opponents turns, you just go off.
Given that, I'm not sure if it justifies a place in my list. I prefer to sit back and wait with Ghave. There's a small recursion subtheme, not as of an aggressive fast hitting style.
As for enchantment protection, sterling grove. Best bet and cheapest too. CMC wise anyway, pretty sure it's expensive to buy.
*edit* posting decklist to page 3.
5 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Creatures: 17
XX Hangarback Walker
2 Winding Constrictor
3 Champion of Lambholt
3 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan
3 Eternal Witness
4 Smothering Abomination
4 Corpsejack Menace
4 Forgotten Ancient
5 Mycoloth
5 Sadistic Hypnotist
5 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
6 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
6 Sun Titan
7 Avenger of Zendikar
7 Hornet Queen
7 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
Enchantments: 14
1 Concordant Crossroads
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sterling Grove
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Aura Shards
3 Necropotence
4 Parallel Lives
4 Grave Pact
5 Doubling Season
5 Primal Vigor
5 Dictate of Erebos
5 Cathar's Crusade
5 Mirari's Wake
6 Martyr's Bond
Artifacts: 5
1 Sol Ring
1 Skull Clamp
2 Illusionist's Bracers
3 Phyrexian Altar
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
5 Garruk, Primal Hunter
6 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Intants: 12
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1x Secure the Wastes
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Eladamri's Call
3 Ready // Willing
3 Beast Within
3 Anguished Unmaking
3x Chord of Calling
Sorceries: 11
2 Nature's Lore
2 Rampant Growth
2 Sylvan Scrying
2 Farseek
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Replenish
4 Skyshroud Claim
6 Austere Command
6 Merciless Eviction
Lands: 36
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Temple Garden
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Sungrass Prairie
1 Brushland
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Gavony Township
1 Canopy Vista
I saw, in previous posts, that the deck is made for doubling +1/+1 counters. I think you've migh have missed Hardened Scales
Also, if you like to draw, I suggest these few cards : Argothian Enchantress, Eidolon of Blossoms, Keen Sense, Elemental Bond, Enchantress's Presence, Overwhelming Instinct
And, to be able to cast more in you second Main, these 2 cards would be helpfull Nature's Will and Sword of Feast and Famine
One card that I never miss putting in my decks is Sword of the Animist
Have a nice day.
Nature's Will reminds me of Bear Umbra which I'd rather run here over sofaf or nature's will due to the untap being on attack rather than after combat damage as well as totem armor. Good idea though. Hardened Scales is a card I've considered but it's a bit lower in power compared to effects that double counters. It's still a card that deserves testing though.
And back to the dilemma of what to drop in order to test cards. The list of test-worthy cards is getting longer but my list of cuttable cards isn't getting any bigger. Any suggestions for cuts? Phyrexian Arena is the only card I can think of personally.
Possible Cuts: 6 Phyrexian Arena, Secure the Wastes, Vindicate, Utter End, Sylvan Scrying, and maybe Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Cards I want to test: 6 Glare of Subdual, Deathreap Ritual, Forgotten Ancient, Bear Umbra, Hardened Scales and I might as well see how degenerate Earthcraft is here.
Cards I need to proxy test before buying: 4 Spike Weaver, Bloodspore Thrinax, Academy Rector, and Concordant Crossroads.
here's my toughts about your next move.
In your possible cut, I would keep Vindicate. I would replace the Sylvan Scrying by, either (or both) Kodama's Reach or/and cultivate. In your test pool, I would keep Deathreap Ritual, Forgotten Ancient, Bear Umbra and Hardened Scales. As proxy, the Thrinax is a nice addition if you have, like 3-4 (more ?) token to sacrifice. I don't like the crossroad, as it's ALL creatures that have haste. Instead, I would put something like Nylea, God of the Hunt or Primal Rage
Question : how do you generate tokens ? with only Avenger of Zendikar and Hornet Queen ??? if so, I suggest you add one of these, 'cause I find your token generation laking Increasing Devotion (personnal favorite ), Nomads' Assembly and/or Deploy to the Front
If you want to play "move +1 counters", maybe 1 or 2 of those might help : Aetherborn Marauder, Karlov of the Ghost Council, Undergrowth Champion, Fungal Behemoth, Ooze Flux, Skullbriar, the Walking Grave, Cytoplast Root-Kin, Power Conduit, Salt Road Quartermasters
Please, let me know what you think.
Have a nice day.
As far as my cards that need testing, I know Concordant Crossroads works for my opponents too but that's why it's more of a dirt cheap (cmc) finisher rather than a true haste enabler here. Also I own earthcraft, so why not lol I know it's good here. Bloodspore Thrinax I'm not sure about honestly but I'd want to test it at least as even +1+1 can make a huge difference as proven by Mirari's Wake whos anthem makes it better here than all of its 'better' options here. Also Mycoloth has proven that I can typically sac 3+ creatures at almost any time.
That last paragraph of cards isn't really what I'm looking for though as my commander can already move +1+1 counters around. This is nice for any +1+1 counters matter creatures like Mycoloth, Bloodspore Thrinax, Hangarback, etc but isn't worth devoting cards to (outside of forgotten ancient who's ability is free and can go wide).
*edit* Post 666... hmmm.
The problem I see with Plainswalker is that, they're never otbf realy long for them to make a reliable profit... I would consider putting increasing devotion (5 token for five (mana) and you have a flashback for ten more !!) Also, since you might have HUGE creatures, in that case, I think Trample would be a nice addition to your mechanic.
Have a nice day.
My problem w/ increasing devotion (and most cards like it) is that it's sorcery speed and the tokens have to survive 3 turns typically. I'd rather keep Secure the Wastes for instant speed even if it amounts to 1 less token. But I don't think I need either honestly as my token production seems to be where I want it.
Out: Phyrexian Arena, Vindicate, Utter End, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
In: Deathreap Ritual, Earthcraft, Forgotten Ancient, and proxied for testing Concordant Crossroads.
Also, I've made a few changes to the deck and I've updated the decklist here at the top of page 3 and in my op to reflect these changes.
Out: Earthcraft, Deathreap Ritual, Coat of Arms, and Exotic Orchard.
In: Verdant Catacombs, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Champion of Lambholt, and Illusionist's Bracers
These are good changes. Champion is a...champion here. Glad you decided on Norn over Coat of Arms, to me that's a good decision. the Bracers should see lots of action too.
Walking Ballista is a card I want to try but I'm patient enough to wait for it to rotate out of standard first. I know I'll need at least 1 for my Animar deck, it's good removal and a very reliable alt win con there.
@toc - Yeah I don't know why... but I always thought Champion's unblockable thing was on attack and his (and my) lack of haste turned me away. I've played with the card in several decks so I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Yay for brain farts. Solid addition seeing as it's a cheaper win con than I was running. As far as Elesh goes, she was cut in order to test another card, so that was more of a temporary thing. Bracer I've been meaning to test for awhile, it's essentially a personal doubling season when equipped to Ghave.
I always wrote it off too. All it takes is a proper read of the card to realise it is meant to be Ghave's right hand lady. If it doesn't get enormous you're not doing it right.
Out: Akroma's Memorial
In: Concordant Crossroads
You're going to have to report back on how well it plays out, I'm interested to hear it.
Given that, I'm not sure if it justifies a place in my list. I prefer to sit back and wait with Ghave. There's a small recursion subtheme, not as of an aggressive fast hitting style.