I like your list and I think the cuts you made were strong.
How is Nath of the Gilt-Leaf working out for you. I tested her initially and I found she was sort of win more (like Waste Not). Plus the best wheel effects don't cause discard.
Forbidden Orchard is cute. I like unconditional mana of any color. How is the drawback? Seems not that bad and you can play politics with it. Your land base has a lot of value, I'm so jealous. But you have 6 colorless mana sources, that seems kind of greedy?
Edit: The more I think about Forbidden Orchard the less I like it. It generates resources for our opponents, and our opponents will be more likely to attack us because they have chump blockers.
I like your list and I think the cuts you made were strong.
How is Nath of the Gilt-Leaf working out for you. I tested her initially and I found she was sort of win more (like Waste Not). Plus the best wheel effects don't cause discard.
Forbidden Orchard is cute. I like unconditional mana of any color. How is the drawback? Seems not that bad and you can play politics with it. Your land base has a lot of value, I'm so jealous. But you have 6 colorless mana sources, that seems kind of greedy?
Edit: The more I think about Forbidden Orchard the less I like it. It generates resources for our opponents, and our opponents will be more likely to attack us because they have chump blockers.
Haven't played enough games to see Nath honestly. Have no idea how overall useful Nath OR Notion Thief are. In theory, they are both awesome early game drops if I can manage it. I will report after more games and I see if they are dead draws more often than not, or if they are all stars.
Forbidden Orchard is great in the first turns of the game. You can instant speed provide blockers to mess with people, buy allies, and the mana it provides is awesome. In the late game, the draw back doesn't phase much either, since a 1/1 rarely is the separator between winning and losing, especially to a control deck. Long story short, LOVE it early game, don't mind it late.
I think the political aspect seems good in theory (building a collation of allies) but after you Day's Undoing with Leovold, Emissary of Trest out, no one is going to want to be your ally so I don't know if the drawback is worth it.
Does anyone thing Mirri's Guile is worth running? I like Sylvan Library and they are similar, but I know Mirri's Guile is strictly worse. Is it worth a spot in the 99?
I think the political aspect seems good in theory (building a collation of allies) but after you Day's Undoing with Leovold, Emissary of Trest out, no one is going to want to be your ally so I don't know if the drawback is worth it.
Does anyone thing Mirri's Guile is worth running? I like Sylvan Library and they are similar, but I know Mirri's Guile is strictly worse. Is it worth a spot in the 99?
Not sure I like running both Mirri's and Sylvan in the same deck. The problem i have with them is that they overlap and kind of negate each other. For the record, Mirri's Guile isnt strictly worse in Leovold. I think its very likely that an opponent runs a clone effect, and a cloned leovold negates Sylvan Library, but not Mirri's Guile. That said, Sylvan Library is so incredibly powerful, where as mirri's only lets us get a sneak peak / rearrange.
fair. I tend to recommend crystal ball to players who are just getting into edh and dont have the devoted budget for mtg. The mana cost is similar in the long term to divining top, and its arguably just as strong in standard application due to the ability for it to put cards on the bottom of your library when they dont help you in the now. I don't run it in any decks myself, but its a strong alternative to top.
I'm digging the list, but what are the win cons here? Slow creature beats or hoping your opponent scoops to a lock? Would it be hard to slide in a doomsday wincon?
I'm digging the list, but what are the win cons here? Slow creature beats or hoping your opponent scoops to a lock? Would it be hard to slide in a doomsday wincon?
my win cons? Creature beat down. 3/x fliers like clique and sangromancer, as well as big beaters like grave titan / sire of stagnation. Also I have the option to go infinite, draw my deck (either with infinite mana + DEN + Runescar OR hitting myself with a precise amount with a bsz), bounce leovold, and then BSZ opponents, should aggro not be an an option.
I feel compelled to point out - closing games has been a weak spot for me in my playtests. I havent lost a game that i've locked so far, but its not a clean win, its normally a slow unpleasant experience for my opponents. I am trying to tweak my list to prevent this, because i play with friends 99% of the time, and dont want to make EDH night un-fun
@Doomsday / Lab Maniac - I am not opposed to this sort of win con, and I might try to figure out a way to sneak it into my deck.
We don't need Doomsday to win and it takes up way too many card slots to make room for a Doomsday package.
yeah, after looking at the 6 cards i'd need to work into my deck, and how useless they feel outside of doomsday, i tend to agree with HB on this one. Not going to use doomsday, and I don't like the way lab maniac feels as a win condition.
He does great work for me. Early game i can normally count on at least 1 of my opponents popping a fetch, everyone tends to run them in edh, whether they be good fetches like misty or verdant; or bad ones like the panoramas or evolving wilds/terramorphic expanse - people run them all. Late game, hes a beast at shutting down recursion. 100% recommend picking one up when you can.
For what its worth, i have yet to see the 2 damage or 2 life make a difference in a game, but I am holding out hope for it hahaha.
I'm looking to update the original thread with more information about match ups, both positive and negative, along with unique positive or negative interactions with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
I'm looking to update the original thread with more information about match ups, both positive and negative, along with unique positive or negative interactions with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
Are you thinking 1v1 match ups for like french edh? or match ups from a multiplayer perspective?
I'm looking to update the original thread with more information about match ups, both positive and negative, along with unique positive or negative interactions with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
Are you thinking 1v1 match ups for like french edh? or match ups from a multiplayer perspective?
I'm looking to update the original thread with more information about match ups, both positive and negative, along with unique positive or negative interactions with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
The deck looks like a blast to play, I'm just wondering how much fun it will be to play against? Hardlocking opponents is one thing and I guess an ok strategy, but If someone would play this deck against me and lock me I expect him to finish the deal quickly. With the few creatures you have and the defense one or more opponents will probably have, this is going to take long. I think you should include something to win faster post-lock or people will not want to play against this deck anymore if it becomes effective in doing what it does. I have no idea what at this point (The Rack?) but will post if I think of something.
Sicne posting this, I've played against an (apparently) well tuned Leovold deck a few times and my above comment turned out to be prophetic. Leovold sucks all the fun out of the game completely. I play against it only when there's no other game i can join within half an hour and even then I wll scoop out of the game containing Leovold if possible as soon as another game starts. I have this with no other commander. I only get to play Magic on one evening every two or three weeks and prefer to spend that time actually playing Magic instead of watching my opponent play solitaire Magic.
TL;DR: I hate it. I will not call for it to be banned but only because I realize not everyone has the same experiences as me. But I would definitly, definitly, definitly not be sad to see it go.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I'm looking to update the original thread with more information about match ups, both positive and negative, along with unique positive or negative interactions with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
The deck looks like a blast to play, I'm just wondering how much fun it will be to play against? Hardlocking opponents is one thing and I guess an ok strategy, but If someone would play this deck against me and lock me I expect him to finish the deal quickly. With the few creatures you have and the defense one or more opponents will probably have, this is going to take long. I think you should include something to win faster post-lock or people will not want to play against this deck anymore if it becomes effective in doing what it does. I have no idea what at this point (The Rack?) but will post if I think of something.
Sicne posting this, I've played against an (apparently) well tuned Leovold deck a few times and my above comment turned out to be prophetic. Leovold sucks all the fun out of the game completely. I play against it only when there's no other game i can join within half an hour and even then I wll scoop out of the game containing Leovold if possible as soon as another game starts. I have this with no other commander. I only get to play Magic on one evening every two or three weeks and prefer to spend that time actually playing Magic instead of watching my opponent play solitaire Magic.
TL;DR: I hate it. I will not call for it to be banned but only because I realize not everyone has the same experiences as me. But I would definitly, definitly, definitly not be sad to see it go.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is very powerful and can be stress to play against, however he's a 3/3 that is susceptible to numerous spot removal spells in the format (Swords to Plowshares, Path To Exile, Abrupt Decay, Go For the Throat, etc.). If a Leovold player is playing him on turn 2 or turn 3, they most likely won't be able to respond to removal. If the player is casting Leovold mid game, it's more likely opponents will have a board position, or mana open to counter or answer Leovold.
tl;dr: Leovold doesn't have hexproof. Answer him. A Leovold player won't wheel if you remove Leovold, and if you remove him in response to a wheel effect, the Leovold player will have egg on their face.
I'm looking to update the original thread with more information about match ups, both positive and negative, along with unique positive or negative interactions with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
The deck looks like a blast to play, I'm just wondering how much fun it will be to play against? Hardlocking opponents is one thing and I guess an ok strategy, but If someone would play this deck against me and lock me I expect him to finish the deal quickly. With the few creatures you have and the defense one or more opponents will probably have, this is going to take long. I think you should include something to win faster post-lock or people will not want to play against this deck anymore if it becomes effective in doing what it does. I have no idea what at this point (The Rack?) but will post if I think of something.
Sicne posting this, I've played against an (apparently) well tuned Leovold deck a few times and my above comment turned out to be prophetic. Leovold sucks all the fun out of the game completely. I play against it only when there's no other game i can join within half an hour and even then I wll scoop out of the game containing Leovold if possible as soon as another game starts. I have this with no other commander. I only get to play Magic on one evening every two or three weeks and prefer to spend that time actually playing Magic instead of watching my opponent play solitaire Magic.
TL;DR: I hate it. I will not call for it to be banned but only because I realize not everyone has the same experiences as me. But I would definitly, definitly, definitly not be sad to see it go.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is very powerful and can be stress to play against, however he's a 3/3 that is susceptible to numerous spot removal spells in the format (Swords to Plowshares, Path To Exile, Abrupt Decay, Go For the Throat, etc.). If a Leovold player is playing him on turn 2 or turn 3, they most likely won't be able to respond to removal. If the player is casting Leovold mid game, it's more likely opponents will have a board position, or mana open to counter or answer Leovold.
tl;dr: Leovold doesn't have hexproof. Answer him. A Leovold player won't wheel if you remove Leovold, and if you remove him in response to a wheel effect, the Leovold player will have egg on their face.
Sure, he can be removed at instant speed and sometimes someone can in time. It already becomes harder when the Leovold player has Lightning Greaves equipped or Force of Will backup for example. Anyway, my problem is that if this deck gets to pull it's trick off only once, the fun in the game is over. I prefer games where I can focus on playing my game instead of having to make sure my opponent cannot play his. But YMMV.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Sure, he can be removed at instant speed and sometimes someone can in time. It already becomes harder when the Leovold player has Lightning Greaves equipped or Force of Will backup for example. Anyway, my problem is that if this deck gets to pull it's trick off only once, the fun in the game is over. I prefer games where I can focus on playing my game instead of having to make sure my opponent cannot play his. But YMMV.
Out of curiousity, how many games have you played against Leovold? I feel he has been out a bit now, but have you really played enough games where you can rule a general as completely unfun? Also, just curious, have you spoken to your friend about their deck? I tend to notice that its rarely the general that makes a game unfun, but the 99 around them. If your friend is playing a deck that ruins the fun for you, scooping out of any game that features the general isnt going to change how games go...talking to your playgroup is.
I've played i think 5-10 games against him from a few different people. You are right that it are the other cards that make it unfun, but every deck i see plays the wheeling lock variant. Is there any other variant that comes close?
In my own group he is not played all thst often, so its not really a problem. I just avoid playing against him s much as possible because the unfun is always there for me as an opponent.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I've played i think 5-10 games against him from a few different people. You are right that it are the other cards that make it unfun, but every deck i see plays the wheeling lock variant. Is there any other variant that comes close?
In my own group he is not played all thst often, so its not really a problem. I just avoid playing against him s much as possible because the unfun is always there for me as an opponent.
That makes a lot more sense. Yeah, i would avoid unfun games too, sounds like you are fortunate that none of those have hit your normal group. My group has a few scary decks that are stax or shut down oriented, so Leovold is right at home, but I also play a lot of Mishra...who doesnt win too often, so my group isnt really calling for me to step off the gas yet, haha.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
seriously though, picked up faerie artisans, sire of stagnation, sylvan library and added grave titan to my list. Cut mindslicer, waste not, magus of the jar, and Jace's archivist
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Land (38)
1x Bayou
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Command Tower
1x Darkwater Catacombs
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Forbidden Orchard
5x Forest
1x High Market
1x Homeward Path
4x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Secluded Glen
1x Strip Mine
1x Sunken Hollow
4x Swamp
1x Tolaria West
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Vesuva
1x Wasteland
1x Watery Grave
1x Yavimaya Hollow
Enchantment (5)
1x Bloodchief Ascension
1x Burgeoning
1x Exploration
1x Rhystic Study
1x Sylvan Library
1x Arbor Elf
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Bloom Tender
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Faerie Artisans
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Grave Titan
1x Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
1x Notion Thief
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Palinchron
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sangromancer
1x Sire of Stagnation
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Spellskite
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Artifact (6)
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Darksteel Plate
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Memory Jar
1x Sol Ring
1x Teferi's Puzzle Box
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Instant (13)
1x Arcane Denial
1x Beast Within
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Capsize
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Delay
1x Echoing Truth
1x Krosan Grip
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Turnabout
1x Voidslime
1x Wheel and Deal
Sorcery (12)
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Bribery
1x Day's Undoing
1x Life from the Loam
1x Nature's Lore
1x Search for Tomorrow
1x Time Reversal
1x Time Spiral
1x Villainous Wealth
1x Wash Out
1x Whispering Madness
1x Windfall
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
How is Nath of the Gilt-Leaf working out for you. I tested her initially and I found she was sort of win more (like Waste Not). Plus the best wheel effects don't cause discard.
Forbidden Orchard is cute. I like unconditional mana of any color. How is the drawback? Seems not that bad and you can play politics with it. Your land base has a lot of value, I'm so jealous. But you have 6 colorless mana sources, that seems kind of greedy?
Edit: The more I think about Forbidden Orchard the less I like it. It generates resources for our opponents, and our opponents will be more likely to attack us because they have chump blockers.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Forbidden Orchard is great in the first turns of the game. You can instant speed provide blockers to mess with people, buy allies, and the mana it provides is awesome. In the late game, the draw back doesn't phase much either, since a 1/1 rarely is the separator between winning and losing, especially to a control deck. Long story short, LOVE it early game, don't mind it late.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Does anyone thing Mirri's Guile is worth running? I like Sylvan Library and they are similar, but I know Mirri's Guile is strictly worse. Is it worth a spot in the 99?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I won't be slotting it in my build. I'd sooner throw in Sensei's Divining Top or Crystal Ball.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
I'm digging the list, but what are the win cons here? Slow creature beats or hoping your opponent scoops to a lock? Would it be hard to slide in a doomsday wincon?
I feel compelled to point out - closing games has been a weak spot for me in my playtests. I havent lost a game that i've locked so far, but its not a clean win, its normally a slow unpleasant experience for my opponents. I am trying to tweak my list to prevent this, because i play with friends 99% of the time, and dont want to make EDH night un-fun
@Doomsday / Lab Maniac - I am not opposed to this sort of win con, and I might try to figure out a way to sneak it into my deck.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
For what its worth, i have yet to see the 2 damage or 2 life make a difference in a game, but I am holding out hope for it hahaha.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
This is a general request for everyone to please share your experiences playing with and against Leovold, Emissary of Trest (preferably as the general of a deck, but even if it's just in the 99 the experience should be informative). Are there any experiences come to mind?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Anything helps, but preferably multiplayer.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
In post #6 of this thread I posted the following:
Sicne posting this, I've played against an (apparently) well tuned Leovold deck a few times and my above comment turned out to be prophetic. Leovold sucks all the fun out of the game completely. I play against it only when there's no other game i can join within half an hour and even then I wll scoop out of the game containing Leovold if possible as soon as another game starts. I have this with no other commander. I only get to play Magic on one evening every two or three weeks and prefer to spend that time actually playing Magic instead of watching my opponent play solitaire Magic.
TL;DR: I hate it. I will not call for it to be banned but only because I realize not everyone has the same experiences as me. But I would definitly, definitly, definitly not be sad to see it go.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is very powerful and can be stress to play against, however he's a 3/3 that is susceptible to numerous spot removal spells in the format (Swords to Plowshares, Path To Exile, Abrupt Decay, Go For the Throat, etc.). If a Leovold player is playing him on turn 2 or turn 3, they most likely won't be able to respond to removal. If the player is casting Leovold mid game, it's more likely opponents will have a board position, or mana open to counter or answer Leovold.
tl;dr: Leovold doesn't have hexproof. Answer him. A Leovold player won't wheel if you remove Leovold, and if you remove him in response to a wheel effect, the Leovold player will have egg on their face.
There are good suggestions. I don't really like Fyndhorn Elves/Elvish Mystic/Llanowar Elves very much unless the mana base is incredibly optimized. This is because if you play a turn one Forest, you can't play Leovold, Emissary of Trest on turn 2.
Deathrite Shaman seems really great if fetches are ubiquitous in your meta and/or if you are playing Verdant Catacombs and Misty Rainforest, but unfortunately I not playing with either.
Elvish Spirit Guide seems like a much worse Lotus Petal. Lotus Petal is good, but I wouldn't say it's amazing. For this reason I'm not crazy about running Elvish Spirit Guide. Perhaps I'm wrong though, has anyone tested it with Leovold, Emissary of Trest?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Sure, he can be removed at instant speed and sometimes someone can in time. It already becomes harder when the Leovold player has Lightning Greaves equipped or Force of Will backup for example. Anyway, my problem is that if this deck gets to pull it's trick off only once, the fun in the game is over. I prefer games where I can focus on playing my game instead of having to make sure my opponent cannot play his. But YMMV.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
In my own group he is not played all thst often, so its not really a problem. I just avoid playing against him s much as possible because the unfun is always there for me as an opponent.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage