Nice Deck, i really like it! Is there any reason you don't play Krosan Grip?
Thanks for the positive feedback!
Krosan Grip is a good card, but 2G is too much for a card that will often just be a Naturalize. It's definitely good card in metas with a lot of counter magic and infinite combos. I strongly prefer Sultai Charm and Seal of Primordium. The former is incredibly versatile and has fantastic synergy with Bloom Tender. Seal of Primordium is an excellent rattlesnake card, and a great turn 2 play if we don't have an acceleration piece to play Leovold, Emissary of Trest early.
Far and away my favorite Leo thread to date. Great stuff
I really appreciate your kind words. I've spent quite a bit of time on this thread but there's room for improvement. Later this week I'll make some amendments related to what Kaladesh has to offer Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
I wanted to spend some time going over some of the cards in Kaladesh that are worthy of consideration and the cards from the set I am updating my list with.
Lands
Aether Hub is a strictly better Tendo Ice Bridge which is already a good card that sees play in some EDH lists. Aether Hub is worthy of consideration because early game it ensures we hit our land drops.
Blooming Marsh unconditionally makes G or B mana for the first turns of the game. This deck is primary about the early game so this is an outstanding addition to our list and a must run.
Botanical Sanctum unconditionally makes U or G mana for the first turns of the game. Like Blooming Marsh, it is a fantastic card for any Leovold, Emissary of Trest list and would be a mistake not to run.
Blue
Insidious Will is a very strong counter spell. It allows us to Counterspell, Redirect or Twincast. Having all of these options on one card is unprecendented and incredibly powerful. The only practical counter spell that offers this much versatility is Cryptic Command, but playing a spell that costs 1UUU in a BUG deck is not easy. Insidious Will shouldn't be difficult to cast, but keeping 4 mana open can sometimes be difficult in a combo control deck with some aggro themes.
Torrential Gearhulk can be an incredibly useful win condition. A 6/6 with flash is already very strong but being able to recast Sultai Charm, Mystical Tutor, Abrupt Decay or Counterspell for free in addition to the body we are paying for is excellent. Torrential Gearhulk is certainly worthy of consideration, it's too bad it doesn't have some type of evasion.
Black
Demon of Dark Schemes is a threat that does a lot. It shares similar space to Massacre Wurm. While it doesn't deal as much damage to opponents with lots of creatures, it has flying and has the ability to reanimate threats and utility creatures. Unforuntately he does remove our utility creatures and mana dorks like Baleful Strix, Bloom Tender, and Birds of Paradise.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury is a defensive creature that can also play offense. He brings us solid card advantage in a unique way also. Unfortunately 2BB is a little too steep of a cost for a deck a that is as faced paced as Diplomatic Sanctions.
Noxious Gearhulk at first glance seems like a Duplicant that doesn't exile. When we look at him more closely he offers a lot. He has Menace which offers him a good form of evasion, he will always be a 5/4 which certainly can't be said about Duplicant. He gains us life, and in some instances a lot, in a deck that uses as many fetch and pain lands as Diplomatic Sanctions, this life gain can be the difference between winning and losing games. One of the drawbacks of Noxious Gearhulk is it is an artifact creature which makes it easier to remove. While this is true, it also can be tutored with Fabricate.
Green
Blossoming Defense is a reactive defensive card similar in nature to Turn Aside. While it doesn't protect noncreature permanents like Teferi's Puzzle Box and Sylvan Library, it protects Leovold, Emissary of Trest which is most important. It also gave help us push extra damage through or screw with the combat math of our opponents.
Verdurous Gearhulk can be an 8/8 with trample for just 3GG. That is no joke. With all the acceleration and ramp we are running, it can easily come down on turn 4 and deal massive damage if unanswered. Alternatively it can turn our general into a 7/7.
After evaluating these cards I have made the following changes to the deck list (these changes also are highlighted in the change log):
September 27, 2016: In: Blooming Marsh Out: Forest Reason: Blooming Marsh unconditionally makes G or B mana for the first turns of the game. This deck is primary about the early game so this is an outstanding addition to our list and a must run. In this deck it is virtually strictly better than a Forest and a very easy decision to make.
September 27, 2016: In: Noxious Gearhulk Out: Evacuation Reason: Noxious Gearhulk is ultimately a better Duplicant. He has Menace which offers him a good form of evasion, he will always be a 5/4 which certainly can't be said about Duplicant. He gains us life, and in some instances a lot, in a deck that uses as many fetch and pain lands as Diplomatic Sanctions, this life gain can be the difference between winning and losing games. One of the drawbacks of Noxious Gearhulk is it is an artifact creature which makes it easier to remove. While this is true, it also can be tutored with Fabricate. Evacuation is a very strong card that has excellent synergy with Teferi's Puzzle Box and Leovold, Emissary of Trest but it's ultimately a win more combo that requires 8 mana to pull off. Noxious Gearhulk is always good.
Nice post, I imagine this will be applying for Primer status at some point?
Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm flattered that this is even worthy of consideration. I feel like I have tested the deck enough to know I enjoy playing Leovold, Emissary of Trest and I want to keep the deck and continue to improve the list. I will review the primer application process and apply in the near future. In the meantime, I will continue to keep this thread updated and look forward to hearing more feedback on Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
Nice post, I imagine this will be applying for Primer status at some point?
Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm flattered that this is even worthy of consideration. I feel like I have tested the deck enough to know I enjoy playing Leovold, Emissary of Trest and I want to keep the deck and continue to improve the list. I will review the primer application process and apply in the near future. In the meantime, I will continue to keep this thread updated and look forward to hearing more feedback on Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
You're following the format we outline pretty well so far, that's why I commented lol
I haven't read your whole thread, but I feel like your removal suite is too inefficient in terms of mana. Getting Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and Slaughter Pact seems much more streamlined. I certainly feel like Charm or Putrefy don't do enough to force you to hold back (continuously) three mana a turn to be worthwhile. Just my two cents. Good travels with the deck, I love the potential for Leovold. By far the most excited commander I've seen spoiled since Derevi.
I haven't read your whole thread, but I feel like your removal suite is too inefficient in terms of mana. Getting Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and Slaughter Pact seems much more streamlined. I certainly feel like Charm or Putrefy don't do enough to force you to hold back (continuously) three mana a turn to be worthwhile. Just my two cents. Good travels with the deck, I love the potential for Leovold. By far the most excited commander I've seen spoiled since Derevi.
Seal of Removal is really nice in decks with Witness and Snapcaster in them. but I don't see a ton of happy targets in your list. Much of your etb is at higher cmc. Like the card, though.
Any particular issue with Pongify/Rapid High? 3/3 tokens tend to be irrelevant, and 1 mana removal, non-conditional removal is pretty compelling.
Seal of Removal is really nice in decks with Witness and Snapcaster in them. but I don't see a ton of happy targets in your list. Much of your etb is at higher cmc. Like the card, though.
Any particular issue with Pongify/Rapid High? 3/3 tokens tend to be irrelevant, and 1 mana removal, non-conditional removal is pretty compelling.
I like Seal of Removal because it's something I can play on turn 2 if I don't have a mana dork or my colors yet. It's a great rattlesnake card and I find it to be far more effective than Krosan Grip.
Pongify is cute, I guess it's worth testing. Pongify seems bad in one v one match ups, which I do play with this deck sometimes. In multiplayer it's a good card, I feel with all the fetch and pain lands, sometimes I'm pressed for life with this deck, so I prefer to remove creatures for good. I plan on making some slight tweaks to the removal package for the deck though. Pongify might make the cut but I think it's more likely I will test Go For the Throat. I also like Snap a lot. It's such a great tempo card. Snap is especially strong if cast on the same turn as a Day's Undoing.
If you wheel a lot you might consider Psychosis Crawler as an additional win condition.
Psychosis Crawler is a card that I tested initially. I found that it was only good when I had a wheel effect. However it costs 5, and when I didn't use a wheel effect is was very mediocre. It dies very easily to removal and it doesn't have evasion. Also, it's worth noting that sometimes this deck vomits its hand which means it can be a pretty weak card.
Beyond the obvious enchantment removal and mana fixing, how is green helpful to you in this deck, especially over the obvious alternative of red with Nekusar? Might you say that without green, you'd run a tighter curve, in contrast to the larger selection of high-mana-cost cards that you currently have here?
I do like the deck, though. It's just a very interesting balance and difference on which I was wondering about your thoughts.
Hm, ok what about the usual combos like Mike/Trike or infinite mana with Exsanguinate?
They work if you are into that. I think it's a lot of setup, for this deck, when this deck can just tutor wheel effects. Additionally, I'm not a fan of overplayed infinites, and they are frowned upon in my play circles. But if you want to optimize the deck even further, they are certainly worth exploring.
Beyond the obvious enchantment removal and mana fixing, how is green helpful to you in this deck, especially over the obvious alternative of red with Nekusar? Might you say that without green, you'd run a tighter curve, in contrast to the larger selection of high-mana-cost cards that you currently have here?
I do like the deck, though. It's just a very interesting balance and difference on which I was wondering about your thoughts.
What about adding Intellectual Offering and playing it while levold is in play during an opponents combat phase who hasn't used his mana yet
They would get 0 cards as they already drew, they would have nothing to untap and if they tapped it all in responce and then untaped it, they would have all that mana for instants and ability costs only
you would untap all lands and draw 3 cards for 5 mana, basically the downside that helps an oppenet could be neutralised under the right cirumstances
other 2 worst cases is they get 1 card and have mana for instants and abilities only (not their turn), Or you do it during their upkeep and again they can't play sorcies, artifacts, planeswalkers, creatures or enchantments with the mana
All that aside why the scry lands?
why the W/G fetch land?
I removed those 4 plus I didn't have the U/B pain land, and was missing some other one
What about adding Intellectual Offering and playing it while levold is in play during an opponents combat phase who hasn't used his mana yet
They would get 0 cards as they already drew, they would have nothing to untap and if they tapped it all in responce and then untaped it, they would have all that mana for instants and ability costs only
you would untap all lands and draw 3 cards for 5 mana, basically the downside that helps an oppenet could be neutralised under the right cirumstances
other 2 worst cases is they get 1 card and have mana for instants and abilities only (not their turn), Or you do it during their upkeep and again they can't play sorcies, artifacts, planeswalkers, creatures or enchantments with the mana
All that aside why the scry lands?
why the W/G fetch land?
I removed those 4 plus I didn't have the U/B pain land, and was missing some other one
I like the scry lands over the show lands like Choked Estuary, because there aren't enough basic land types in the deck for the show lands to get any value.
I'm not sure I'm sold on Intellectual Offering. It's cute, but not sure it's worth a slot.
On a different note, I am considering making room for more tempo bounce spells in the list. I mentioned how much I like Snap earlier. Vapor Snag and/or Void Snare seem very strong also. It is important to remember that Leovold, Emissary of Trest shines early game. The deck succeeds when we wheel on turn before turn 5. Bounce spells are really good, because if we use them on our opponents' turn before we use a wheel effect like Day's Undoing, or we use them in the same turn we cast a wheel effect, they are just as effective as a spell like Murder. Additionally, using something like a Vapor Snag against a turn one Birds of Paradise or a turn 2 Animar, Soul of Elements is a powerful tempo play that can really set an opponent back. Having this play gives us an early play option if we don't have a mana dork or one mana tutor in our hand.
This makes me curious about testing Remand as well (probably in place of Delay). Remand helps us get closer to finding our wheel effect, and if we play Remand the turn before we Day's Undoing/Time Spiral/Diminishing Returns, it effectively functions as a Dismiss.
First off, I want to say thanks for being active in this thread. I know you haven't gotten a ton of feedback from us, but I've incorporated a number of your ideas in my own Elfball version of Leovold and the deck is better for it.
I'm not sure about the bounce spells in a multiplayer version of this deck. After that first Wheel resolves, the game becomes Archenemy real quick and in that situation I'd prefer my answers to be true answers and not tempo plays. That being said I'm a fan of Remand for the reasons you listed, as well as because it casts a wider net with regards to what we can buy time against.
How often does the fact that Murder can target black creatures actually come up? I'm asking for anyone's experiences here, not just the OP (who has a brilliant deck here, btw!). I ask because while I have a copy I'm trying to justify its inclusion over Doom Blade and it isn't going too well due to the extra investment of B. I may also be running too little strict creature kill so I might need a different cut anyway.
Furthermore, I'm trying to find use for the recently-rehashed suggestions of Remand, Day's Undoing, and Vapor Snag as they're all excellent considerations. I'm most definitely adding Undoing but I need to figure out the card to cut, and the same goes for most everything else.
The way I see my ideal removal suite for the deck is like this: Blue is great at preventative measures in the short-term perspective, while black and green mop up. Black mops up the creatures while green deals with most everything else. Agreed, or is there a better perspective on this?
Finally, should I invest in some land destruction for this deck? I worry about bastardizing my manabase in adding more colorless 1-for-1 lands like Strip Mine or Tectonic Edge (and I may not even bother with Ghost Quarter because I don't want them to break even, I want them to be unable to cast things entirely), but how vital are they to the strategy of full-on denial? I was in a position before where I wheel-locked my opponent and he was unable to cast his commander as he was 1 mana short, and that got me to thinking on that front.
Attached is a link to my decklist. Please excuse the rather absurd name and forgo the description entirely; I don't know why I drank that energy drink at 10:30pm that night.
I think I was on about beating a dead horse by playing Leovold.dec? I dunno
Additionally I'd like to know the spots in the landbase where 1-for-1 lands can be added, as well as other prospective landbase tweaks if you've got
'em. I'm shying away from buying any sort of duals but if a good enough case can be made for some reasonably-cheap ones, I'm not *too* adverse to the idea.
EDIT 2: Made the IMHO-necessary cuts. Swapped in Murder for Tragic Slip (killing a BoP is cute but killing without a size-max condition is more helpful for me, I feel), Remand for Dream Fracture (so I can worry less about cost issues or the opponent drawing cards while Leovold is out of play), Day's Undoing for Sylvan Scrying (this would have been a harder choice if SS was Rampant Growth but Undoing needed an in and this seemed the weakest link as far as noncreature nonland cards went - not many gamechanging lands in the deck...yet?), and Seal of Primordium for Natural State (better to have a 2cmc sorcery-speed rattlesnake that can kill more at instant-speed, than a 1cmc instant that can kill small stuff without any early pressure post-cast). Also swapped in a spare Island at the cost of a Forest because ratios.
Vapor Snag is cute but an after thought simply because while I'd like more low-cmc bounce tricks, I don't believe I have the room to cut more noncreature spells at this point. Scrying for Undoing was tricky enough, and Undoing is a VITAL card. Snag isn't terribly vital so I'm content in overlooking it for now at least.
I don't think you should run Murder but I wouldn't run Doom Blade. If you are comfortable casting double black, you can try Victim of Night. It depends on your meta. In my meta Go For The Throat is very good. Some people are into Pongify. Tragic Slip isn't bad by the way. I have been meaning to test Disfigure.
I do not recommend running Temple of the False God, Strip Mine, Ancient Tomb or any colorless mana producing land. It's too important to be able to play Leovold, Emissary of Trest early.
Vedalken Orrery doesn't seem good. I tested Leyline of Anticipation (which is much better) when I first created the list and I cut it early. It's basically only good in your starting hand.
Void Grafter is really bad. I would cut that without a doubt. Elixir of Immortality is also very bad. It has no synergy with Leovold and basically doesn't do anything.
I believe that Jace's Archivist is too slow. It also costs 3 so it doesn't curve well with Leovold really. Diminishing Returns is much better. Phyrexian Arena is a good card, but I am not running it. Anvil of Bogardan is much better with Leovold but I think your deck is a budget list which is cool. Desertion is another card that is good, but I don't think it is as good with Leovold. Keeping 5 mana open isn't easy. Tezzeret the Seeker is a much better 5 drop.
Psychosis Crawler is only good if you use a wheel with it. Otherwise it's really bad, and because it costs 5, you should pretty much always be using a wheel before it.
How is Coiling Oracle performing? I've been meaning to test that card? Do you like it more or less than Baleful Strix?
Because you a running a budget mana base I would make room for more cards like Rampant Growth. You could run Into The North and include Snow-covered basic lands and Frost Marsh.
A great thread! I will definitely link this into my Sidisi primer as what to look for in other BUGcommanders! Superbly useful! You should definitely heed the committee's advice and submit an application for primer status! Sultai-colored commanders need all the love they can!
I notice that you use Villainous Wealth as an end card. How has that worked out for you in games where you've been able to epicly cast it? Most players tend to scoop when the value of X is too high. Do you use it just for that? To snipe a player?
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I don't think you should run Murder but I wouldn't run Doom Blade. If you are comfortable casting double black, you can try Victim of Night. It depends on your meta. In my meta Go For The Throat is very good. Some people are into Pongify. Tragic Slip isn't bad by the way. I have been meaning to test Disfigure.
Pongify isn't terrible but as others have said netting empirically 0 board advantage at the cost of a card isn't doing any good unless you have a solid plan to remove the token.
It's fine in something like a Tiny Leaders iteration of Leovold. It's not reasonable to run in full EDH because even with this deck being piloted you can't rely on an early-game win. There's often too much disruption and hate drawn this way, and the hate isn't honestly just a meta call.
I do not recommend running Temple of the False God, Strip Mine, Ancient Tomb or any colorless mana producing land. It's too important to be able to play Leovold, Emissary of Trest early.
Vedalken Orrery doesn't seem good. I tested Leyline of Anticipation (which is much better) when I first created the list and I cut it early. It's basically only good in your starting hand.
I chose Orrery over Leyline because mana fixing needs to be more reliable than relying on the 7-8% chance you'll draw into the card in your opener, aggressive mulls notwithstanding to the statistic. Double blue is doable but it's still steep.
Void Grafter is really bad. I would cut that without a doubt. Elixir of Immortality is also very bad. It has no synergy with Leovold and basically doesn't do anything.
Grafter is a mini-Kira, Great Glass-Spinner or Spellskite for me, since my budget barring cards I already own doesn't facilitate either of those at present. I would also cut it, but only if either of those (preferably Skite) can come in without disrupting my budgetary restrictions. Elixir is nice because it brings back the counter suite and any disrupted threats (or answers) to be wheeled back into hand later, plus it gains me back some much-needed life (and you've been having difficulty with the lack thereof in-game so I don't know why you *don't* run it).
I believe that Jace's Archivist is too slow. It also costs 3 so it doesn't curve well with Leovold really. Diminishing Returns is much better. Phyrexian Arena is a good card, but I am not running it. Anvil of Bogardan is much better with Leovold but I think your deck is a budget list which is cool. Desertion is another card that is good, but I don't think it is as good with Leovold. Keeping 5 mana open isn't easy. Tezzeret the Seeker is a much better 5 drop.
Archivist is a rattlesnake that eats a removal spell and likely draws me a card in that. I am not opposed to its slowness. Returns isn't a card I'd play due to the need to exile potential answers for problems that may arise. I'm not entirely okay with that. Arena is fine. And yes being that this is a budget list, as much as I'd love to run Anvil I haven't the funds. And if you really want to make an immediate point into Tezzeret, it's not like I don't understand its merits - like you said and like I said: budget. It's not a budget list per se, but I am on a budget myself.
Psychosis Crawler is only good if you use a wheel with it. Otherwise it's really bad, and because it costs 5, you should pretty much always be using a wheel before it.
I don't disagree; I'm still running it (albeit for now).
How is Coiling Oracle performing? I've been meaning to test that card? Do you like it more or less than Baleful Strix?
Oracle hasn't actually come up in games yet for me, but I would imagine that if I dropped it t2 and a t2 or t3 Leovold wasn't forthcoming already, it wouldn't be a bad thing to play. Strix is better value by far unless you have Top'd or otherwise know what your topdeck is just prior to the Oracle entering.
Yes. Yes it is. I don't know its cost at the time of writing but all things considered I'm fine with Propaganda for now. I may be able to trade my friend for his copy of Dread though, if it's that vastly different.
Because you a running a budget mana base I would make room for more cards like Rampant Growth. You could run Into The North and include Snow-covered basic lands and Frost Marsh.
I would do that, if the landbase weren't budget. Have normal basics, will run. As for ramp cards, my ramp suite is already pretty okay to me. Rampant Growth doesn't do as much for me T2 as BoP or Exploration, et al, do for me T1.
A great thread! I will definitely link this into my Sidisi primer as what to look for in other BUGcommanders! Superbly useful! You should definitely heed the committee's advice and submit an application for primer status! Sultai-colored commanders need all the love they can!
I notice that you use Villainous Wealth as an end card. How has that worked out for you in games where you've been able to epicly cast it? Most players tend to scoop when the value of X is too high. Do you use it just for that? To snipe a player?
I really appreciate the positive feedback, it means a lot Especially coming from you, I have read your decklists before, you are a very good deck builder and skilled player. I've spent a lot of time working on this thread. I don't think it's quite ready for primer status yet, but perhaps in the near future. All of the feedback is very helpful.
Villainous Wealth is a blast to cast late game. It's been very successful. In my experience, people tend to scoop when I use it, but sometimes I get tremendous value out of it when X is 6 or more. It's a fun card, but I may replace it with a more traditional win condition.
I have a couple more thoughts on Kalkris' list but I don't feel like multiquoting so I'll just highlight a couple things.
I strongly recommend not running Reliquary Tower or any Spellbook effects. I've played my Leovold list dozens of times, and I can't think of a single instance where I had more than 7 card in my hand to the point where I had to discard except for one instance when one of my opponents used Cyclonic Rift on my end step. In a BGU deck, being able to make all of your colors is incredibly important, for this reason running a colorless land, especially one that doesn't really do anything for you I believe is not a good decision.
Elixir of Immortality is really bad. It shuffles your cards back in you deck, and you might draw them again later (but statistically speaking, you probably won't). Day's Undoing, Time Reversal, Time Spiral, Diminishing Returns and other cards also shuffle your graveyard into your library but do much more. I don't run it because it's a bad card. It is a card that is similar to Reliquary Tower in that it is overplayed (but not by competitive players) and very often doesn't do anything. Noxious Gearhulk is a good card that does a lot of things including lifegain. Courser of Kruphix is another card lifegain card that is good (although I don't run it because it costs the same amount of mana as Leovold)
Diminishing Returns does make you exile 10 cards from your library, but it doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things. The 10 cards exiled are very similar to 10 cards you never would have encountered in the course of the game. The only instance in which it really matters is if you are trying to combo out and you plan on tutoring or encountering a card every game (perhaps Teferi's Puzzle Box, but you don't need that card to win, especially after you wheel). Even in that case, it's unlikely that card will be exiled. You say Diminishing Returns may exile potential answers you may need for later, but you very easily would have just not drawn those cards. Diminishing Returns could even exile the top 10 cards that were not helpful, and the 11th card you draw is the answer/threat you need.
Last thing, I'm not running Pongify, but I noticed you are running Beast Within. Obviously Beast Within does more because it can hit anything. However, if you are ever using Beast Within to target creatures and you are fine with the results, you may want to take a second look at Pongify.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Thanks for the positive feedback!
Krosan Grip is a good card, but 2G is too much for a card that will often just be a Naturalize. It's definitely good card in metas with a lot of counter magic and infinite combos. I strongly prefer Sultai Charm and Seal of Primordium. The former is incredibly versatile and has fantastic synergy with Bloom Tender. Seal of Primordium is an excellent rattlesnake card, and a great turn 2 play if we don't have an acceleration piece to play Leovold, Emissary of Trest early.
I also really like Nature's Claim. It allows us to remove a permanent but still keep mana up to protect Leovold, Emissary of Trest early game with something like Dispel or Turn Aside
I really appreciate your kind words. I've spent quite a bit of time on this thread but there's room for improvement. Later this week I'll make some amendments related to what Kaladesh has to offer Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
On another note, does anyone have any recommendations for permanents that can protect Leovold, Emissary of Trest before he comes down? I'm looking for more stuff like Spellskite, Sylvan Safekeeper, Lightning Greaves and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (preferably stuff in the 1 to 2 converted mana cost cost range). I wish Mother of Runes was a different color! I am considering making room for Spiketail Hatchling but its probably too low impact.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Lands
Blue
Black
Green
Colorless
After evaluating these cards I have made the following changes to the deck list (these changes also are highlighted in the change log):
September 27, 2016:
In: Blooming Marsh
Out: Forest
Reason: Blooming Marsh unconditionally makes G or B mana for the first turns of the game. This deck is primary about the early game so this is an outstanding addition to our list and a must run. In this deck it is virtually strictly better than a Forest and a very easy decision to make.
September 27, 2016:
In: Botanical Sanctum
Out: Forest
Reason: Like Blooming Marsh and Darkslick Shores, Botanical Sanctum is a fantastic card for any Leovold, Emissary of Trest list and would be a mistake not to run.
September 27, 2016:
In: Noxious Gearhulk
Out: Evacuation
Reason: Noxious Gearhulk is ultimately a better Duplicant. He has Menace which offers him a good form of evasion, he will always be a 5/4 which certainly can't be said about Duplicant. He gains us life, and in some instances a lot, in a deck that uses as many fetch and pain lands as Diplomatic Sanctions, this life gain can be the difference between winning and losing games. One of the drawbacks of Noxious Gearhulk is it is an artifact creature which makes it easier to remove. While this is true, it also can be tutored with Fabricate. Evacuation is a very strong card that has excellent synergy with Teferi's Puzzle Box and Leovold, Emissary of Trest but it's ultimately a win more combo that requires 8 mana to pull off. Noxious Gearhulk is always good.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm flattered that this is even worthy of consideration. I feel like I have tested the deck enough to know I enjoy playing Leovold, Emissary of Trest and I want to keep the deck and continue to improve the list. I will review the primer application process and apply in the near future. In the meantime, I will continue to keep this thread updated and look forward to hearing more feedback on Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I think you raise a good point Putrefy. I am not too fond of Pongify and Rapid Hybridization, but I may want to test Go For the Throat or Dismember. I'm also tempted to test Seal of Removal/Snap.
Sultai Charm is very good. It does too many things, I've used all the modes before, and it has good synergy with Chrome Mox.
And yes, I feel Leovold, Emissary of Trest has so much potential. The possibilities for a streamlined competitive deck are certainly there.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Any particular issue with Pongify/Rapid High? 3/3 tokens tend to be irrelevant, and 1 mana removal, non-conditional removal is pretty compelling.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
UGTatyova, Benthic DruidUG | RBRakdos the DefilerRB | RNorin the WaryR | BGThelon of HavenwoodBG
I like Seal of Removal because it's something I can play on turn 2 if I don't have a mana dork or my colors yet. It's a great rattlesnake card and I find it to be far more effective than Krosan Grip.
Pongify is cute, I guess it's worth testing. Pongify seems bad in one v one match ups, which I do play with this deck sometimes. In multiplayer it's a good card, I feel with all the fetch and pain lands, sometimes I'm pressed for life with this deck, so I prefer to remove creatures for good. I plan on making some slight tweaks to the removal package for the deck though. Pongify might make the cut but I think it's more likely I will test Go For the Throat. I also like Snap a lot. It's such a great tempo card. Snap is especially strong if cast on the same turn as a Day's Undoing.
Psychosis Crawler is a card that I tested initially. I found that it was only good when I had a wheel effect. However it costs 5, and when I didn't use a wheel effect is was very mediocre. It dies very easily to removal and it doesn't have evasion. Also, it's worth noting that sometimes this deck vomits its hand which means it can be a pretty weak card.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
UGTatyova, Benthic DruidUG | RBRakdos the DefilerRB | RNorin the WaryR | BGThelon of HavenwoodBG
I do like the deck, though. It's just a very interesting balance and difference on which I was wondering about your thoughts.
They work if you are into that. I think it's a lot of setup, for this deck, when this deck can just tutor wheel effects. Additionally, I'm not a fan of overplayed infinites, and they are frowned upon in my play circles. But if you want to optimize the deck even further, they are certainly worth exploring.
The strongest non-ramp green cards in my experience from playing the deck are Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, and Nature's Claim. Villainous Wealth is also incredibly powerful late game.
I believe that Nekusar the Mindrazer is not as good as Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Having a 3 drop general that is an incredibly powerful hatebear in the command zone is very useful. It's not uncommon at all to play a turn 2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest, and that's the main reason this deck is so powerful. Green giving us Birds of Paradise, Elves of Deep Shadow and Bloom Tender really allow this deck to snowball quickly.
Even without using cards wheel effects like Day's Undoing in tandem with Leovold, Emissary of Trest, he's an incredibly powerful generally. Being able to shut off cards like Brainstorm and Phyrexian Arena is huge.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
They would get 0 cards as they already drew, they would have nothing to untap and if they tapped it all in responce and then untaped it, they would have all that mana for instants and ability costs only
you would untap all lands and draw 3 cards for 5 mana, basically the downside that helps an oppenet could be neutralised under the right cirumstances
other 2 worst cases is they get 1 card and have mana for instants and abilities only (not their turn), Or you do it during their upkeep and again they can't play sorcies, artifacts, planeswalkers, creatures or enchantments with the mana
All that aside why the scry lands?
why the W/G fetch land?
I removed those 4 plus I didn't have the U/B pain land, and was missing some other one
I added cavern of souls , misty rainforest botanical sanctum, bayou, twilight mire, choked estuary
I agree with most of this feedback.
I'm running Windswept Heath and Bloodstained Mire over Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacombs for budget reasons. For budget reasons I am not running Bayou or other original duels like Underground Sea. I added to Blooming Marsh and Botanical Sanctum to the change log and forget to update the deck list, this has been updated accordingly.
I like the scry lands over the show lands like Choked Estuary, because there aren't enough basic land types in the deck for the show lands to get any value.
I'm not sure I'm sold on Intellectual Offering. It's cute, but not sure it's worth a slot.
In other news, I have been playing the deck more and it is continuing to succeed. Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Exploration and Burgeoning are huge all stars. I have also been testing Snap and it's great. It's hilarious when I Snap before Time Spiral.
Does anyone have any thoughts on Worldy Tutor? I am considering cutting it. Usually I tutor Spellskite or Bloom Tender with it on turn 1 or something Massacre Wurm late game. Not sure what I would replace it with, maybe more acceleration, more specifically, Elvish Spirit Guide. Maybe (but probably not) Chancellor of the Tangle.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Check this
UGTatyova, Benthic DruidUG | RBRakdos the DefilerRB | RNorin the WaryR | BGThelon of HavenwoodBG
Thank you
On a different note, I am considering making room for more tempo bounce spells in the list. I mentioned how much I like Snap earlier. Vapor Snag and/or Void Snare seem very strong also. It is important to remember that Leovold, Emissary of Trest shines early game. The deck succeeds when we wheel on turn before turn 5. Bounce spells are really good, because if we use them on our opponents' turn before we use a wheel effect like Day's Undoing, or we use them in the same turn we cast a wheel effect, they are just as effective as a spell like Murder. Additionally, using something like a Vapor Snag against a turn one Birds of Paradise or a turn 2 Animar, Soul of Elements is a powerful tempo play that can really set an opponent back. Having this play gives us an early play option if we don't have a mana dork or one mana tutor in our hand.
This makes me curious about testing Remand as well (probably in place of Delay). Remand helps us get closer to finding our wheel effect, and if we play Remand the turn before we Day's Undoing/Time Spiral/Diminishing Returns, it effectively functions as a Dismiss.
Thoughts?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I'm not sure about the bounce spells in a multiplayer version of this deck. After that first Wheel resolves, the game becomes Archenemy real quick and in that situation I'd prefer my answers to be true answers and not tempo plays. That being said I'm a fan of Remand for the reasons you listed, as well as because it casts a wider net with regards to what we can buy time against.
Furthermore, I'm trying to find use for the recently-rehashed suggestions of Remand, Day's Undoing, and Vapor Snag as they're all excellent considerations. I'm most definitely adding Undoing but I need to figure out the card to cut, and the same goes for most everything else.
The way I see my ideal removal suite for the deck is like this: Blue is great at preventative measures in the short-term perspective, while black and green mop up. Black mops up the creatures while green deals with most everything else. Agreed, or is there a better perspective on this?
Finally, should I invest in some land destruction for this deck? I worry about bastardizing my manabase in adding more colorless 1-for-1 lands like Strip Mine or Tectonic Edge (and I may not even bother with Ghost Quarter because I don't want them to break even, I want them to be unable to cast things entirely), but how vital are they to the strategy of full-on denial? I was in a position before where I wheel-locked my opponent and he was unable to cast his commander as he was 1 mana short, and that got me to thinking on that front.
Attached is a link to my decklist. Please excuse the rather absurd name and forgo the description entirely; I don't know why I drank that energy drink at 10:30pm that night.
I think I was on about beating a dead horse by playing Leovold.dec? I dunno
The Bludgeoning of Peppermint Paddy (1992-2016)
So in short, I need cuts for the following inclusions:
Day's Undoing
Remand
Vapor Snag
and Murder
Additionally I'd like to know the spots in the landbase where 1-for-1 lands can be added, as well as other prospective landbase tweaks if you've got
'em. I'm shying away from buying any sort of duals but if a good enough case can be made for some reasonably-cheap ones, I'm not *too* adverse to the idea.
Thanks!
~Lil Kalki
EDIT: May switch in Seal of Primordium but am hung up on whether to replace Krosan Grip, Natural State, or something else. Thoughts there too?
EDIT 2: Made the IMHO-necessary cuts. Swapped in Murder for Tragic Slip (killing a BoP is cute but killing without a size-max condition is more helpful for me, I feel), Remand for Dream Fracture (so I can worry less about cost issues or the opponent drawing cards while Leovold is out of play), Day's Undoing for Sylvan Scrying (this would have been a harder choice if SS was Rampant Growth but Undoing needed an in and this seemed the weakest link as far as noncreature nonland cards went - not many gamechanging lands in the deck...yet?), and Seal of Primordium for Natural State (better to have a 2cmc sorcery-speed rattlesnake that can kill more at instant-speed, than a 1cmc instant that can kill small stuff without any early pressure post-cast). Also swapped in a spare Island at the cost of a Forest because ratios.
Vapor Snag is cute but an after thought simply because while I'd like more low-cmc bounce tricks, I don't believe I have the room to cut more noncreature spells at this point. Scrying for Undoing was tricky enough, and Undoing is a VITAL card. Snag isn't terribly vital so I'm content in overlooking it for now at least.
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
I like Natural State, and it may be worth testing.
I do not recommend running Temple of the False God, Strip Mine, Ancient Tomb or any colorless mana producing land. It's too important to be able to play Leovold, Emissary of Trest early.
Vedalken Orrery doesn't seem good. I tested Leyline of Anticipation (which is much better) when I first created the list and I cut it early. It's basically only good in your starting hand.
Void Grafter is really bad. I would cut that without a doubt. Elixir of Immortality is also very bad. It has no synergy with Leovold and basically doesn't do anything.
I believe that Jace's Archivist is too slow. It also costs 3 so it doesn't curve well with Leovold really. Diminishing Returns is much better. Phyrexian Arena is a good card, but I am not running it. Anvil of Bogardan is much better with Leovold but I think your deck is a budget list which is cool. Desertion is another card that is good, but I don't think it is as good with Leovold. Keeping 5 mana open isn't easy. Tezzeret the Seeker is a much better 5 drop.
Psychosis Crawler is only good if you use a wheel with it. Otherwise it's really bad, and because it costs 5, you should pretty much always be using a wheel before it.
How is Coiling Oracle performing? I've been meaning to test that card? Do you like it more or less than Baleful Strix?
No Mercy is much better than Propaganda.
Because you a running a budget mana base I would make room for more cards like Rampant Growth. You could run Into The North and include Snow-covered basic lands and Frost Marsh.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I notice that you use Villainous Wealth as an end card. How has that worked out for you in games where you've been able to epicly cast it? Most players tend to scoop when the value of X is too high. Do you use it just for that? To snipe a player?
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Pongify isn't terrible but as others have said netting empirically 0 board advantage at the cost of a card isn't doing any good unless you have a solid plan to remove the token.
It's fine in something like a Tiny Leaders iteration of Leovold. It's not reasonable to run in full EDH because even with this deck being piloted you can't rely on an early-game win. There's often too much disruption and hate drawn this way, and the hate isn't honestly just a meta call.
That is fair, save for Reliquary Tower. Having a Spellbook effect available (or two with the Thought Vessel seems like it isn't a bad idea tbh.
I chose Orrery over Leyline because mana fixing needs to be more reliable than relying on the 7-8% chance you'll draw into the card in your opener, aggressive mulls notwithstanding to the statistic. Double blue is doable but it's still steep.
Grafter is a mini-Kira, Great Glass-Spinner or Spellskite for me, since my budget barring cards I already own doesn't facilitate either of those at present. I would also cut it, but only if either of those (preferably Skite) can come in without disrupting my budgetary restrictions. Elixir is nice because it brings back the counter suite and any disrupted threats (or answers) to be wheeled back into hand later, plus it gains me back some much-needed life (and you've been having difficulty with the lack thereof in-game so I don't know why you *don't* run it).
Archivist is a rattlesnake that eats a removal spell and likely draws me a card in that. I am not opposed to its slowness. Returns isn't a card I'd play due to the need to exile potential answers for problems that may arise. I'm not entirely okay with that. Arena is fine. And yes being that this is a budget list, as much as I'd love to run Anvil I haven't the funds. And if you really want to make an immediate point into Tezzeret, it's not like I don't understand its merits - like you said and like I said: budget. It's not a budget list per se, but I am on a budget myself.
I don't disagree; I'm still running it (albeit for now).
Oracle hasn't actually come up in games yet for me, but I would imagine that if I dropped it t2 and a t2 or t3 Leovold wasn't forthcoming already, it wouldn't be a bad thing to play. Strix is better value by far unless you have Top'd or otherwise know what your topdeck is just prior to the Oracle entering.
Yes. Yes it is. I don't know its cost at the time of writing but all things considered I'm fine with Propaganda for now. I may be able to trade my friend for his copy of Dread though, if it's that vastly different.
I would do that, if the landbase weren't budget. Have normal basics, will run. As for ramp cards, my ramp suite is already pretty okay to me. Rampant Growth doesn't do as much for me T2 as BoP or Exploration, et al, do for me T1.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
I really appreciate the positive feedback, it means a lot Especially coming from you, I have read your decklists before, you are a very good deck builder and skilled player. I've spent a lot of time working on this thread. I don't think it's quite ready for primer status yet, but perhaps in the near future. All of the feedback is very helpful.
Villainous Wealth is a blast to cast late game. It's been very successful. In my experience, people tend to scoop when I use it, but sometimes I get tremendous value out of it when X is 6 or more. It's a fun card, but I may replace it with a more traditional win condition.
I have a couple more thoughts on Kalkris' list but I don't feel like multiquoting so I'll just highlight a couple things.
I strongly recommend not running Reliquary Tower or any Spellbook effects. I've played my Leovold list dozens of times, and I can't think of a single instance where I had more than 7 card in my hand to the point where I had to discard except for one instance when one of my opponents used Cyclonic Rift on my end step. In a BGU deck, being able to make all of your colors is incredibly important, for this reason running a colorless land, especially one that doesn't really do anything for you I believe is not a good decision.
Void Grafter is nothing like Kira, Great-Glass Spinner or Spellskite. The reason those spells are good is because you can play them before you play Leovold and be able to tap out without worrying about someone removing Leovold or other permanents with spot removal. Void Grafter doesn't do that. Void Grafter is basically Turn Aside for 1GU but it only can protect from spells that target your creatures (Turn Aside can protect Teferi's Puzzle Box also). I understand Kira, Great-Glass Spinner or Spellskite are not budget friendly card, but I strongly suggest you run Sylvan Safekeeper. It's a very powerful card and protects you creatures much better.
Elixir of Immortality is really bad. It shuffles your cards back in you deck, and you might draw them again later (but statistically speaking, you probably won't). Day's Undoing, Time Reversal, Time Spiral, Diminishing Returns and other cards also shuffle your graveyard into your library but do much more. I don't run it because it's a bad card. It is a card that is similar to Reliquary Tower in that it is overplayed (but not by competitive players) and very often doesn't do anything. Noxious Gearhulk is a good card that does a lot of things including lifegain. Courser of Kruphix is another card lifegain card that is good (although I don't run it because it costs the same amount of mana as Leovold)
Diminishing Returns does make you exile 10 cards from your library, but it doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things. The 10 cards exiled are very similar to 10 cards you never would have encountered in the course of the game. The only instance in which it really matters is if you are trying to combo out and you plan on tutoring or encountering a card every game (perhaps Teferi's Puzzle Box, but you don't need that card to win, especially after you wheel). Even in that case, it's unlikely that card will be exiled. You say Diminishing Returns may exile potential answers you may need for later, but you very easily would have just not drawn those cards. Diminishing Returns could even exile the top 10 cards that were not helpful, and the 11th card you draw is the answer/threat you need.
Last thing, I'm not running Pongify, but I noticed you are running Beast Within. Obviously Beast Within does more because it can hit anything. However, if you are ever using Beast Within to target creatures and you are fine with the results, you may want to take a second look at Pongify.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate