I've truly tried Cabal Coffers several times over the years, between Ayli and my other decks running Black. Some people swear by Urborg + Cabal Coffers, but I feel severe resentment every time Coffers is a dead land drop producing no mana so often until I have Urborg, and Urborg is more of a happy convenience when it comes up and seldom what I'm searching for during most games, as opposed to other utility lands.
Sounds interesting, though I’m not sure if Ayli’s the perfect Orzhov commander for that. Maybe Kembal?
Ayli has some potential. In truth I don't think there's a specific good Commander for Orzhov Stax. Kambal, Consul of Allocation would depend on what kind of stax deck you're running. If it's a hard stax deck looking to lock opponents out of the game, then Kambal isn't great because his trigger won't be happening too often. Obzedat, Ghost Council may do well here, but the down side is if they get around the stax lock and remove it, it'll be difficult to get them back because you too are running on little mana. That said, I do have an idea of how I would go about a hard stax build, so if y'all are curious read on below
The first thing to note about Stax is you want to get your Stax/lockdown pieces online ASAP. You'll need plenty of them. This puts a greater emphasis on more early game mana ramp. Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Mox Amber will be really important. The idea is to get ahead of your opponents and lock them down before they have the chance to respond or set up any board presence that will interfere with your strategy. While you'll still be playing a game of attrition, the importance the game shifts from the mid game to early game.
Next, you're going to want to find your stax effects. Orzhov doesn't have the best ability to search out Artifacts and Enchantments like Commanders with access to U. So running as many low mana tutors as possible will be ideal, as well. The usual tutors such as Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor are a must, but it's also worth considering Imperial Seal and Cruel Tutor because to play Stax you have to find those pieces ASAP. You may consider more draw spells, as well. Plunge into Darkness would probably be pretty amazing.
After that, it comes down to what stax effects you want to run, and especially important is how you get around them hurting you. One of my favorite combos is Bitterblossom + The Abyss (or the more affordable Magus of the Abyss). You may consider running Call to the Grave and Anowon, the Ruin Sage to force opponents to keep creatures off of the battlefield. With those in mind, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet becomes pretty amazing for the deck since each time your opponents sacrifice a creature, you get a free 2/2 Zombie to sacrifice to your various effects. Ophiomancer is also amazing at helping pay for your various sacrifice upkeeps because you can sacrifice the Snake from him at the end of each opponent's turn to whatever sac outlet suits you.
You'll probably want fast and hard reanimation such as Reanimate and Animate Dead. Win Conditions can be big dumb Creatures that give you value easily like Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. Running Approach of the Second Sun wouldn't be a bad idea because ideally no one in any position to do anything about it. A Stax deck grinds out game wins very, very slowly. Bloodchief Ascension + Mind Crank is an old but classic combo.
If you're wondering what you'd take out of the deck to make the switch, it'd likely be the vast amount of creatures with removal effects attached to them like Angel of Serenity, Archon of Justice, Ashen Rider, etc. You'll still be running removal and board wipes just in case, but you'll be shifting from controlling their board via recycling ETB/death triggers to locking them out early and grinding the win out the rest of the game. Many of the creatures (some that aren't part of combos and some that are) become worse with this strategy, such as Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, Yosei, the Morning Star, False Prophet and Knight-Captain of Eos. Mana intensive cards like Corpse Dance, Nim Deathmantle, Merciless Eviction and Vizkopa Guildmage are worse because you're working with much less mana than normal. But, creatures we normally don't care about like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Leonin Warleader become that much better and can be easily reanimated or cast despite the stax effects.
Anyway, these are some thoughts on how to run this archetype. Depending on how early you can get a lock down on the table. I'm going to note here that this is a high risk, high reward play style. You're going to be trying to ramp up your mana as fast as you can, as early as possible to get ahead enough to establish your lock down effects and slow down your opponents for a hard stax deck.
However...
All of the above was written up with hard stax in mind. Winter Orb and that type of thing. If you're looking for a soft stax, more pillow-forty build, I'd simply take out some of the creature with removal attached to them, a couple board wipes and targeted removal spells and toss in the usual suspects: Blind Obedience, Ghostly Prison, Aven Mindcensor, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Vryn Wingmare, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst etc. This route will still make the most mana intensive stuff in the deck pretty bad and require you to look at replacing them with all of this.
i love the pillow-forty build suggestions that i might try it. iL skip the Amethyst and the other non-creature spells though (aside from Blind Obedience) since the hate bears can be sacrificed later on when you don't need them anymore and you are ready to combo off.
so basically early game is ramp + hate bears, pillowforting just enough to slow everybody down while looking for your combo.
i still want my combos in the deck which may not be that possible with a full stax build.
Today, I’m trying to run my Ayli list without the 6 off-color fetchlands, so only keeping my Marsh Flats.
It's purely an aesthetic choice. Some of these are arguably worse, I know. I hope my deck remains viable without these. If not, 6 fetches will be added again.
Today, I’m trying to run my Ayli list without the 6 off-color fetchlands, so only keeping my Marsh Flats.
It's purely an aesthetic choice. Some of these are arguably worse, I know. I hope my deck remains viable without these. If not, 6 fetches will be added again.
I personally resorted to having lots of rocks for my ramp and finally solved the mana thirst issue of the deck.
Not a cheap option though with Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Mox Amber on board. Expedition Map and Weathered Wayfarer fetches me Ancient Tomb or the Coffer/Urborg synergy.
If I have money to spend iL even include a Mox Diamond but between the above cards what's left in my ramp arsenal is just Land Tax and Crypt Ghast and didn't feel lacking anymore.
I'd probably try to fit in Gilded Lotus and Mox Diamond over Mana Crypt and Mana Vault. Land Tax isn't bad, but I do try to avoid the Cabal Coffers type of effects just because we want enough utility lands that without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, they end up really low impact. The deck is more colored-mana hungry than anything. Mox Amber actually is pretty sweet for the deck because we run a lot of Legendary creatures and being able to have Ayli out early and usually stick on the board makes it a really tasty option!
I'm also removing Mana Crypt. I lost 18 life yesterday with it (rather unlucky coinflipping), and never really had the need for the CC. Indeed, perhaps a Mox Amber could take it's place. We really need the B or W, not C
Wowiee! It's that time again! And I'm actually getting on this set review on time! Guilds of Ravnica is packed with powerful cards. Although we don't have Orzhov in the set yet, there are a few cards worth discussing Below are my thoughts on some particular cards from the set!
White
Dawn of Hope - Here's another way to draw cards that can trigger often in an Ayli build. While I don't believe it's as good as a guaranteed draw from Phyrexian Arena (you may not always want to pay the 2 at the time you gain life to draw the card). It's bound to be budget friendly with Phyrexian Arena creeping back up again. It won't be making it into the main build, but is a decent consideration if you're looking for more card draw and more mana sinks later in the game.
Divine Visitation - If you've built your Ayli deck to focus on creating tokens to use as sac fodder and whatnot, this may be a consideration for you. Turning all those tokens into 4/4 flying Angels with vigilance is pretty amazing. It makes cards that come with tokens or create tokens that much more deadly in the late game, if you like getting into Combat. This is only worthwhile if you make tokens consistently and it won't be a dead draw, but the payoff could be great.
Black
Mausoleum Secrets - Ayli is a fairly creature heavy deck, and this tutor scales with the state of the game. Early on you're not going to be tutoring for your expensive combo pieces, but usually removal or other card draw effects. In the late game when you want to find something expensive, you'll more than likely have the cards there. The real kicker is that this is an Instant, allowing you to tutor for a response in Orzhov colors. I'm going to give this some very real consideration for the main build and will be looking to test it out to see how consistently Undergrowth will be a down side. I anticipate that the Instant speed and the low cost of our removal spells and other cards we want on the fly will make this a worthwhile addition. Also tutoring for combo pieces at the end of our last opponent's turn is extremely valuable.
Midnight Reaper - Card advantage is pretty amazing and this guy could result in a huge amount of card draw in addition to our normal sac engines. Much like Mausoleum Secrets, I'll be testing this to see the consistency with which his triggers happen. He's not a creature with an ETB or dying effect but a lot of potential to help with card draw in the deck.
Plaguecrafter - I never thought it'd happen, but we have a straight up, strictly better Fleshbag Marauder/Merciless Executioner. This guy will be replacing Merciless Executioner in the main build immediately once I acquire one!
Conclusion
Well that was quite short, wasn't it? But the select few worth looking at this time around have a lot of potential - particularly the Black cards! The Multicolor didn't have anything as Orzhov won't appear into the next set, and the Artifacts and lands don't offer any points of discussion. It's been a few sets since there's been anything really tempting to look at, so it's nice that even in the Ravnica set without our guild that we've seen some options pop up! I'm looking forward to testing Mausoleum Secrets, Midnight Reaper and being able to eat away at Planeswalkers and hands with Plaguecrafter
Personally I'm really excited for Plaguecrafter. Seems like it will be a big upgrade compared to the other two.
In regards to Midnight Reaper, he seems like a strictly worse Grim Haruspex to me. If you're not running that, it I don't think you'll like this.
Lastly, don't you think that Doom Whisperer might be worth a try? It seems like it could be good. It would fill our grave while fixing our draw aswell.
You're actually totally right about Midnight Reaper. I'm probably going to make a note. I was somewhat stretching trying not to add so few points of discussion to the set review and kind of reached trying to find something else that interested me to talk about
As for Doom Whisperer: I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I have decks I'm certainly adding it to, such as Muldrotha, the Grave Tide where the vast majority of my action is coming out of my graveyard. With Ayli, there's a decent amount of stuff I don't want in the graveyard, to begin with. I really don't like to fill the graveyard until it's time to utilize it, because I don't like my graveyard just being open to graveyard hate, and that's why I'm not excited about Surveil for Ayli. If you're not at a point in the game where you want to start using your graveyard, you don't want to draw attention to it. By now when I put Reveillark, Karmic Guide or most of my game changing reanimation targets in the graveyard, people go "OH NO" and immediately start digging for graveyard hate. So, that makes him a decent bodied Creature with half of Scry a lot of the time. I also try to avoid Creatures that if I do draw them or wind up with them in my graveyard, that I can't find a use for them or set up a line of play immediately or gain some kind of benefit from them. Doom Whisperer is so separate from any of the large web of interactions in the deck that he can just end up being a dead draw where you have ample amounts of other things you'd rather be doing. I really try to avoid that. I'm not convinced by him, to be perfectly honest.
I’m intrigued by Price of Fame. It’s removal for their commander, and card selection, and it might put something in the ‘yard worth reanimating.
I have to say Price of Fame is a pretty swift pass for my list, but I'll elaborate on my feelings about it. It might hit Commanders occasionally for 1B, but more than half of the time it's a 4-mana Murder with Surveil attached to it and I really don't feel like Surveil is necessary. Sometimes you're also better off with leaving Commanders on the battlefield and disabling them with Darksteel Mutation or Faith's Fetters instead of letting them re-cast them from the Command Zone, so it feels bad to have a 4CC Murder. Much like Doom Whisperer, I really don't care to dump stuff in my graveyard until I actually want it there. Having a large window of time in which people can start looking for graveyard hate before I'm ready to utilize those cards in the graveyard always goes badly. With my feelings on Surveil aside, I'd rather play Path to Exile, Ashes to Ashes, Rend Flesh, Eyeblight's Ending, Unmake or a number of other removal spells I'm not currently running before trying Price of Fame.
I decided a few months ago that I wanted to try out Ayli as a commander, because she looked like a commander that was both reliable and complicated enough to have fun with. I started looking up online what people generally do with her and...cleric tribal? Lifegain? It seemed like a waste of a good complex commander with a cheap sac outlet and some interesting odd clauses about trying to get 10 life above your starting total. It was refreshing to see your take on Ayli. Like Blatimer, I was hoping for a way to use Enduring Renewal and Deathrender in a commander deck, two pet cards that I don't get enough chances to use. I am glad to say that one of my friends (who has a $600 Narset deck and a bunch of other cheaper decks) has said of my $100 Ayli deck is evil and degenerate, which, if you knew him, is a compliment. My deck is about $100 market price, though I managed to spend only $70 getting the cards with a bunch of nice trades.
Some things about this deck that are different than others I've seen here:
You've made an argument against putting discard in Ayli because you prefer to have cards like Megrim adding value to the discard plays that you make, and that's fair, but here's my argument for it: This deck can handle creatures and non-land permanents. It has more trouble with spells coming out of nowhere. Against a blue player who has very few creatures or even a no-creature (or, yikes, a no-permanent deck except for their commander) my version of Ayli might flounder unless I can search up one of my discard abilities. For that reason I run Tidehollow Sculler, Mournwhelk, and Mindslicer in my deck. Mindslicer, in my opinion, is more devastating than a boardwipe. As a person with more creatures and enchantments than instants and sorceries, it's not uncommon that I might be either playing out my hand faster than everyone else at the table, or that I have a recursion engine going that can make up the loss from the discard effect. My favorite thing to do before boardwiping is to stick Skullclamp on Mindslicer and watch everyone squirm as they know I could sacrifice it at any time. talk about a rattlesnake.
I am not a specifically bleeder deck, but I do run two lifegain win cons. One is the obvious Kokusho/Vizkopa Guildmage that everyone here is familiar with but the other is Necropotence/Children of Korlis/Vizopa Guildmage. If these three cards resolve with 1BW open, you usually just win, since all of the abilities can be used at instant speed. The combo is: pay all but 1 of your life with necorpotence, use the Guildmage's ability as many times as possible, then gain that much life. (You can do the same with Phyrexian Delver+Fiend Hunter+Ayli+Children of Korlis. Say you're at 10 life facing down lethal damage next turn. Cycle Delver and Fiend Hunter together to break even on life total while creating a 1-mana cost loop. Lose 3 life, gain 3 life, lose 3 life. Sacrifice Children of Korlis and suddenly you're at 50 life, because while, yes, you were staying at 10 life during that process, you did lose 50 life that turn. If you had Vizkopa Guildmage out, you also just won the game. I got a heart handshake after that game. A complicated but satisfying combo that I was holding pieces to in my hand half of the game waiting for the right moment.
Oath of Lieges is an underrated card in white mana ramp, first because as the (budget) white/black player, there is someone with more land than you, and second, because if one deck at the table gets manascrewed and someone can't do anything, no one has fun because either someone is salty and bad at losing or the game becomes unblanaced and one player easily wins without the checks and balances of 3 strong players. Oath of Lieges ensures that you have 3 strong enemies rather than 2 or 1, which ensure that you are safer since you can play politics.
Just a note that with Enduring Renewal and Deathrender out, the Yosei Lock costs 1 mana each time you do it, which is very satisfying. Of course, that's not as good as Ashnod+Nim Deathmantle's 0 mana with Karmic Guide out, but I still think it's cool.
With only Deathrender out, I can have a turn like this: Ayli and Children of Korlis are out of the field, the latter equipped with Deathrender. Someone tries to destroy Deathrender, so in response, I sacrifice children of Korlis, putting angel of Serenity down, sac it in response, exile three creature (or sac it when the 1st ability resolves and put 3 creatures in my graveyard into my hand), put down Puppeteer Clique twice, put down Precursor Golem, then put down Mindslicer and sacrifice it. In one response, I've emptied my hand, putting 3 golems on the field, getting 2 of their creatures from the graveyard with puppeteer clique, , gained 12 life, put 2 golems on the field, and emptied everyones hand of responses. Of course, this was against an Intet deck that had a mystical tutor in hand, unfortunately, so he still won that game, but I was still satisfied with that turn in general.
Combo I've been thinking of putting in, but only if it makes the deck better:
Anyone making changes with cards from the new Ravnica set? I’m waiting for the 2019 Ravnica set. Patience must be a defining trait for the subjects of the Church of Orzhov. (that’s what I’m telling myself :-))
I decided a few months ago that I wanted to try out Ayli as a commander, because she looked like a commander that was both reliable and complicated enough to have fun with. I started looking up online what people generally do with her and...cleric tribal? Lifegain? It seemed like a waste of a good complex commander with a cheap sac outlet and some interesting odd clauses about trying to get 10 life above your starting total. It was refreshing to see your take on Ayli. Like Blatimer, I was hoping for a way to use Enduring Renewal and Deathrender in a commander deck, two pet cards that I don't get enough chances to use. I am glad to say that one of my friends (who has a $600 Narset deck and a bunch of other cheaper decks) has said of my $100 Ayli deck is evil and degenerate, which, if you knew him, is a compliment. My deck is about $100 market price, though I managed to spend only $70 getting the cards with a bunch of nice trades.
Here's the list:
Hey there CinnamonBlue! Thanks for taking the time to post! Sorry for taking so long to reply. It's been a heck of a couple months and I haven't even gotten to play Magic more than maybe three times. Anyway, I'm glad you like this spin on Ayli! Orzhov is my favorite guild because you can go so many different ways and be very effective and still do so on a budget
There are some very interesting and neat choices you've made for the deck. I hadn't even heard of Children of Korlis. I can appreciate having pet cards, and although I don't think I would personally play Enduring Renewal because I have a pet peeve about giving my opponents information (revealing every card I draw), I'll stop short of putting it down by any means. It's quite a unique card!
Regarding discard: While there is no denying that the deck can feel like it's faltering against spellslinger or Storm type decks and that discard would help this, it can be a bit of a meta call. I very rarely play against Storm or other spellslinger variants, and thought I do play against Mono-U on occasion, table politics usually drags those players down due to all the players at the table not wanting to put up with getting everything counterspelled or bounced for an hour or more I think it doesn't hurt to try to include discard where they're ETB effects like some of the ones you've chosen. I've always been torn on Mindslicer because I actually love the card, but I really try to have the cards in my build be useful as soon as I draw them, and it Mindslicer tends to want to wait until the most opportune time where you're not losing anything of value in your hand. I'd rather not discard my board wipes, targeted removal, etc. I think because you've focused some of your deck around returning creatures to your hand that it can certainly work for you and am glad you've been able to make it work
I feel like Oath of Lieges's worth in the deck definitely depends on your playgroup. I certainly wouldn't want to play this against a Lord Windgrace or Omnath, Locus of Rage deck where they can constantly ramp out lands by sacrificing lands to various effects. I appreciate that it's a somewhat budget Land Tax, but I really try to not help opponents ramp in Commander before I'm set up to deal with what might come from it. It's not an awful card by any means! But in my meta, Oath of Lieges would probably helps my opponents a bit too much
I will say that Kormus Bell is a very, very risky card, and can lead to other players easily causing a mass land destruction of the table. I personally philosophically avoid mass land destruction or things that enable it because games go so long in Commander, as it is.
Lastly, I'll offer some suggestions/questions!
Condemn vs Swords to Plowshares - Putting creatures back in people's libraries makes me uneasy with all thetutors out there and the chance of seeing that threat again. I was curious why Condemn over Swords?
Unmake vs Other Options - Right now Unmake is sitting around $0.50 USD. Some other options could be Ashes to Ashes letting you hit two targets at the cost of 5 life, and Utter End can hit a wider range of targets, and can be found for around $0.70 these days thanks to being printed again
Planar Cleansing vs Hour of Revelation - A really great card very similar to this is Hour of Revelation! It's only $0.50 if not less, and does the same thing for the same default cost! But often, you'll be able to reduce the cost to only WWW
Mana Rocks - It may be worth trying to trade out Mind Stone and Traveller's Amulet for either Orzhov Signet or Fellwar Stone, or to make room for either/both. It seems like your build is also very colored-mana hungry and these would help activate that Vizkopa Guildmage some more
Tutors! - A couple of great options have become available or cheaper here recently! Diabolic Intent is almost as good as a Demonic Tutor in a deck like Ayli and is sitting around $4.00 since it was reprinted in Battlebond. Additionally, Final Parting can be worth it over Diabolic Tutor for one more mana, especially since you run a lot of recursion from your graveyard to your hand!
That's all I can think of at this moment. I enjoyed reading about your build and some of the different/unique cards you're utilizing!
Anyone making changes with cards from the new Ravnica set? I’m waiting for the 2019 Ravnica set. Patience must be a defining trait for the subjects of the Church of Orzhov. (that’s what I’m telling myself :-))
Other than that, I can't say I was too happy with the set as far as Ayli goes. I was so excited for Mausoleum Secrets the first time I read it when I didn't read that it specified the target had to be a Black card, and Gruesome Menagerie would be sweet if I were running more Entomb-like effects or Buried Alive, but I think the curve is such that it won't consistently a good selection of targets to choose from that would make it effective.
I did get me a Plaguecrafter too, replacing mr MeatsackFleshbag Marauder. It looks like Ultimate Masters will (finally) be providing a foil Angelic Renewal.
I did get me a Plaguecrafter too, replacing mr Meatsack. It looks like Ultimate Masters will (finally) be providing a foil Angelic Renewal.
And our first foil Phyrexian Tower, as well! I've just now made a list of reprints in the set I'd like to pick up for various decks and it's kind of scary.
This thread inspires me a lot with my Ayli deck building. While my list is close to the Kelzam's one (on a smaller budget), I run some cards that I would want to see your point of view on.
Your deck looks great! I'd personally add 1 or 2 extra lands, as I found out that, though Ayli costs a mere BW, this deck sometimes can be quite mana-hungry, and it lacks the ramp of G.
I'd recommend caution with the Altar of Dementia: often opponents assume infinite combos (maybe from experiencing Teysa, Orzhov Scion) and try to exile it, even when it's just a sac-outlet (*cough* Reveillark *cough* Karmic Guide). Also: milling opponents enables their recursion/reanimation.
Also: Yosei is a major griever. Expect to draw hate.
Hey there everyone! Stopping by for a moment to announce some changes I've made to my list. It's been quite a long time since I've committed any changed to my list, but after some lengthy testing I'm ready to announce a few cuts and additions! The OP has been updated with these changes! Some of these are changes that y'all have picked up on making, such as Antoine up above (I'll take at look at your list and respond to your questions soon!).
P.S. I'll be back to reply to y'all's recent posts here soon!
For quite a while, I haven't felt great about drawing Mangara. While they has been the occasion where I've been able to machine-gun down permanents by combining Mangara with combo pieces, the turn it takes to make him active has too often resulted in him being removed or no longer around to do his job. Enter Leonin Relic-Warder. The deck has plenty of ways to deal with Creatures, but only a small number of ways of dealing with Artifacts and Enchantments. He can use the Fiend Hunter trick to exile his targets permanently, but also comes down for WW allowing you to put a giant wrench in the gears of decks that use Mana Crypt and such to ramp ahead fast. He is also an infinite loop with Necromancy or Gift of Immortality and a sac outlet.
The Graverobber has been a long time patron of the deck since it's inception. However, he has lost favor over time with his mana intensive ability and the difficulty of getting him to flip outside of Turn 1-3. His reanimation ability is fantastic, but ultimately the problem is that the format has sped up since the days he made it into the list. The format has become extremely popular since the early days of this deck, and so more and more content creators and players are pushing optimized decks. More "tier" decks and "competitive" lists means being unable to afford such a large mana investment that looks uncertain, now. Hell's Caretaker was up for consideration for it's place, but ultimately Gift of Immortality felt the best in testing. It combos with Sun Titan, Fiend Hunter and the newly added Leonin Relic-Warder, and is great for recovering from a board wipe, and costs little mana to do so.
"Gary" has long been a consideration for the deck, but it's always been a matter of what to take out for him. Over time with the addition of Anguished Unmaking and Utter End, I've increased the total single target removal that can hit any problem permanents. Occasionally Faith's Fetters would come in handy, particularly in niche cases where I didn't want whatever the permanent was to die. This scenario has become so few and far in between, however, that it finally made sense to take it out and bring in Gary, especially because life drain has become more important. As mentioned in the case of Nezumi Graverobber above, the speed of decks in Commander has been on the rise. Not only is Gary often times a win condition in himself with reanimation shenanigans, but the life drain can offset hits taken early in the game or the use of Necropotence and Toxic Deluge.
Another part of the speed of the format rising is attempting to shed large expensive cards that don't do much by themselves, as well as finding more card draw. Vish Kal has been a staple sac outlet in the deck since very early on, but in truth has aged poorly. He is neat and flavorful, but Krav has come to replace him as not only a sac outlet, but life gain and card draw, for significantly cheaper mana investment. I have been very impressed with Krav. I have no plans to run his partner.
Recognition
A few of the regulars that stop by and participate in the thread and discussion have asked about or suggested some of these before. I confess - if it weren't quite obvious - that I can be stubborn about hanging on to what I'm used to for sentimental reasons or because "it works", although I usually do have good reasoning for my own choices. As time has gone on, I've learned to be even more objective with deck building because at my LGS I've found a lot of people come to me for deck advice or to discuss ideas and the meta is maturing on a month-by-month basis as the format has grown. But most of all, thank you to everyone who continues to offer their input and ideas here! I'm thankful for your support for the ideas presented here and positivity as we explore ways to make our opponents bend the knee!
Alright, like I said I ended up buying a cheap Demonic Tutor and some other stuff, so I thought since I haven't posted my decklist in a while, I could do just that to get some critiques and ideas for further improvements.
Anyway, here's the current list:
....
Tell me what you think! I think Disciple of Bolas and Night's Whisper might be some of the first cards to cut. I kinda miss Crypt Ghast, which I took out of the deck a while ago, so I might end up adding that again.
Let me know what cards you'd take out, and which ones you would add
Looks like you're not running Blasting Station, it's one of my favorite wincons and also useful when not using it for the win!
I can also recommend Toxic Deluge, IMO it's the best mass removal spell in the game
Also I've been trying to lower my mana curve and add more ramp cards. I feel that without that my deck just was too slow (at least for my meta). I like Mox Amber, and Boreas charger as ramp. Also, I really like the Land tax + Scroll rack combo to draw cards + filter lands.
Anyways, if you care to see my list, the links in my sig are all up to date.
I have to be honest, Disciple of Bolas is my favorite card in my Ayli list. That card is what I consider Bonkers Good, and I think the only way I would cut it would be for a functionally equivalent effect at a cheaper cost...and I would probably just run both.
I’m testing Krav, the Unredeemed - though not in the Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter slot, he’s been gone longtime. Not 100% happy with Krav atm, though. Hoping for something stellar from Ravnica Allegiance.
@Daanzel & MrRHardy: I tried Morbid Curiosity for a while, for a similar effect as Disciple of Bolas, but ultimately Promise of Power proved better imho. You could even sacrifice the demon token to Ayli for some life.
@Daanzel & MrRHardy: I tried Morbid Curiosity for a while, for a similar effect as Disciple of Bolas, but ultimately Promise of Power proved better imho. You could even sacrifice the demon token to Ayli for some life.
Hmm I never really considered Promise of Power, I should give it a try, seems very nice late game! (Though cutting something from my Ayli list is a pain compared to my other decks..)
How are you liking Debt to the Deathless? Do you run it only as an infinite-mana finisher, or do you often get to the point where you have the mana to make it worthwhile? I'd love to run it for the Orzhov flavor but I'm not sure it would make the cut.
I also started running Phyrexian Altar to make infinite C, B and W with one of our etb loops, and then use our general to get to infinite life in addition to exiling everything (if the infinite life part wasn't enough ^^) Aside from that, it really helps out early game with extra colored mana. Think I'm gonna keep it in.
hatebears like Aven Mindsensor, the white eidolon, Stony Silence, Linvala, Blind Obedience, etc.
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
I've truly tried Cabal Coffers several times over the years, between Ayli and my other decks running Black. Some people swear by Urborg + Cabal Coffers, but I feel severe resentment every time Coffers is a dead land drop producing no mana so often until I have Urborg, and Urborg is more of a happy convenience when it comes up and seldom what I'm searching for during most games, as opposed to other utility lands.
Ayli has some potential. In truth I don't think there's a specific good Commander for Orzhov Stax. Kambal, Consul of Allocation would depend on what kind of stax deck you're running. If it's a hard stax deck looking to lock opponents out of the game, then Kambal isn't great because his trigger won't be happening too often. Obzedat, Ghost Council may do well here, but the down side is if they get around the stax lock and remove it, it'll be difficult to get them back because you too are running on little mana. That said, I do have an idea of how I would go about a hard stax build, so if y'all are curious read on below
The first thing to note about Stax is you want to get your Stax/lockdown pieces online ASAP. You'll need plenty of them. This puts a greater emphasis on more early game mana ramp. Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Mox Amber will be really important. The idea is to get ahead of your opponents and lock them down before they have the chance to respond or set up any board presence that will interfere with your strategy. While you'll still be playing a game of attrition, the importance the game shifts from the mid game to early game.
Next, you're going to want to find your stax effects. Orzhov doesn't have the best ability to search out Artifacts and Enchantments like Commanders with access to U. So running as many low mana tutors as possible will be ideal, as well. The usual tutors such as Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Enlightened Tutor are a must, but it's also worth considering Imperial Seal and Cruel Tutor because to play Stax you have to find those pieces ASAP. You may consider more draw spells, as well. Plunge into Darkness would probably be pretty amazing.
After that, it comes down to what stax effects you want to run, and especially important is how you get around them hurting you. One of my favorite combos is Bitterblossom + The Abyss (or the more affordable Magus of the Abyss). You may consider running Call to the Grave and Anowon, the Ruin Sage to force opponents to keep creatures off of the battlefield. With those in mind, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet becomes pretty amazing for the deck since each time your opponents sacrifice a creature, you get a free 2/2 Zombie to sacrifice to your various effects. Ophiomancer is also amazing at helping pay for your various sacrifice upkeeps because you can sacrifice the Snake from him at the end of each opponent's turn to whatever sac outlet suits you.
With Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos or Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist the drain builds up very quickly, and so does your life total. Hand disruption is also a must to ensure they can't answer your effects. Bottomless Pit, Necrogen Mists, Mind Slash and Cunning Lethemancer come to mind, as does Sadistic Hypnotist. For further resource denial, you'd consider Desolation, Pox and Contamination. One combo I can think of is Felidar Guardian + Gift of Immortality + Sac Outlet + Tanglewire. Smokestack does amazing work[/c]. If you run it, run Bloodghast, Nether Traitor and Reassembling Skeleton + Ophiomancer and Bitterblossom. These with regular reanimation effects like Sheoldred, Whispering One or Debtors' Knell in concert with Desecrated Tomb or Open the Graves will slowly build you an army to overwhelm opponents while keeping them locked down.
You'll probably want fast and hard reanimation such as Reanimate and Animate Dead. Win Conditions can be big dumb Creatures that give you value easily like Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. Running Approach of the Second Sun wouldn't be a bad idea because ideally no one in any position to do anything about it. A Stax deck grinds out game wins very, very slowly. Bloodchief Ascension + Mind Crank is an old but classic combo.
If you're wondering what you'd take out of the deck to make the switch, it'd likely be the vast amount of creatures with removal effects attached to them like Angel of Serenity, Archon of Justice, Ashen Rider, etc. You'll still be running removal and board wipes just in case, but you'll be shifting from controlling their board via recycling ETB/death triggers to locking them out early and grinding the win out the rest of the game. Many of the creatures (some that aren't part of combos and some that are) become worse with this strategy, such as Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, Yosei, the Morning Star, False Prophet and Knight-Captain of Eos. Mana intensive cards like Corpse Dance, Nim Deathmantle, Merciless Eviction and Vizkopa Guildmage are worse because you're working with much less mana than normal. But, creatures we normally don't care about like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Leonin Warleader become that much better and can be easily reanimated or cast despite the stax effects.
Anyway, these are some thoughts on how to run this archetype. Depending on how early you can get a lock down on the table. I'm going to note here that this is a high risk, high reward play style. You're going to be trying to ramp up your mana as fast as you can, as early as possible to get ahead enough to establish your lock down effects and slow down your opponents for a hard stax deck.
However...
All of the above was written up with hard stax in mind. Winter Orb and that type of thing. If you're looking for a soft stax, more pillow-forty build, I'd simply take out some of the creature with removal attached to them, a couple board wipes and targeted removal spells and toss in the usual suspects: Blind Obedience, Ghostly Prison, Aven Mindcensor, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Vryn Wingmare, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst etc. This route will still make the most mana intensive stuff in the deck pretty bad and require you to look at replacing them with all of this.
(Also known as Xenphire)
so basically early game is ramp + hate bears, pillowforting just enough to slow everybody down while looking for your combo.
i still want my combos in the deck which may not be that possible with a full stax build.
It's purely an aesthetic choice. Some of these are arguably worse, I know. I hope my deck remains viable without these. If not, 6 fetches will be added again.
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
id keep the off colored fetches if just to trigger Bloodghast or barring that, just to steer away from lands that comes to play tapped.
I'm also removing Mana Crypt. I lost 18 life yesterday with it (rather unlucky coinflipping), and never really had the need for the CC. Indeed, perhaps a Mox Amber could take it's place. We really need the B or W, not C
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Wowiee! It's that time again! And I'm actually getting on this set review on time! Guilds of Ravnica is packed with powerful cards. Although we don't have Orzhov in the set yet, there are a few cards worth discussing Below are my thoughts on some particular cards from the set!
White
Dawn of Hope - Here's another way to draw cards that can trigger often in an Ayli build. While I don't believe it's as good as a guaranteed draw from Phyrexian Arena (you may not always want to pay the 2 at the time you gain life to draw the card). It's bound to be budget friendly with Phyrexian Arena creeping back up again. It won't be making it into the main build, but is a decent consideration if you're looking for more card draw and more mana sinks later in the game.
Divine Visitation - If you've built your Ayli deck to focus on creating tokens to use as sac fodder and whatnot, this may be a consideration for you. Turning all those tokens into 4/4 flying Angels with vigilance is pretty amazing. It makes cards that come with tokens or create tokens that much more deadly in the late game, if you like getting into Combat. This is only worthwhile if you make tokens consistently and it won't be a dead draw, but the payoff could be great.
Black
Mausoleum Secrets - Ayli is a fairly creature heavy deck, and this tutor scales with the state of the game. Early on you're not going to be tutoring for your expensive combo pieces, but usually removal or other card draw effects. In the late game when you want to find something expensive, you'll more than likely have the cards there. The real kicker is that this is an Instant, allowing you to tutor for a response in Orzhov colors. I'm going to give this some very real consideration for the main build and will be looking to test it out to see how consistently Undergrowth will be a down side. I anticipate that the Instant speed and the low cost of our removal spells and other cards we want on the fly will make this a worthwhile addition. Also tutoring for combo pieces at the end of our last opponent's turn is extremely valuable.
Midnight Reaper - Card advantage is pretty amazing and this guy could result in a huge amount of card draw in addition to our normal sac engines. Much like Mausoleum Secrets, I'll be testing this to see the consistency with which his triggers happen. He's not a creature with an ETB or dying effect but a lot of potential to help with card draw in the deck.
Plaguecrafter - I never thought it'd happen, but we have a straight up, strictly better Fleshbag Marauder/Merciless Executioner. This guy will be replacing Merciless Executioner in the main build immediately once I acquire one!
Conclusion
Well that was quite short, wasn't it? But the select few worth looking at this time around have a lot of potential - particularly the Black cards! The Multicolor didn't have anything as Orzhov won't appear into the next set, and the Artifacts and lands don't offer any points of discussion. It's been a few sets since there's been anything really tempting to look at, so it's nice that even in the Ravnica set without our guild that we've seen some options pop up! I'm looking forward to testing Mausoleum Secrets, Midnight Reaper and being able to eat away at Planeswalkers and hands with Plaguecrafter
(Also known as Xenphire)
You're actually totally right about Midnight Reaper. I'm probably going to make a note. I was somewhat stretching trying not to add so few points of discussion to the set review and kind of reached trying to find something else that interested me to talk about
As for Doom Whisperer: I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I have decks I'm certainly adding it to, such as Muldrotha, the Grave Tide where the vast majority of my action is coming out of my graveyard. With Ayli, there's a decent amount of stuff I don't want in the graveyard, to begin with. I really don't like to fill the graveyard until it's time to utilize it, because I don't like my graveyard just being open to graveyard hate, and that's why I'm not excited about Surveil for Ayli. If you're not at a point in the game where you want to start using your graveyard, you don't want to draw attention to it. By now when I put Reveillark, Karmic Guide or most of my game changing reanimation targets in the graveyard, people go "OH NO" and immediately start digging for graveyard hate. So, that makes him a decent bodied Creature with half of Scry a lot of the time. I also try to avoid Creatures that if I do draw them or wind up with them in my graveyard, that I can't find a use for them or set up a line of play immediately or gain some kind of benefit from them. Doom Whisperer is so separate from any of the large web of interactions in the deck that he can just end up being a dead draw where you have ample amounts of other things you'd rather be doing. I really try to avoid that. I'm not convinced by him, to be perfectly honest.
(Also known as Xenphire)
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
I have to say Price of Fame is a pretty swift pass for my list, but I'll elaborate on my feelings about it. It might hit Commanders occasionally for 1B, but more than half of the time it's a 4-mana Murder with Surveil attached to it and I really don't feel like Surveil is necessary. Sometimes you're also better off with leaving Commanders on the battlefield and disabling them with Darksteel Mutation or Faith's Fetters instead of letting them re-cast them from the Command Zone, so it feels bad to have a 4CC Murder. Much like Doom Whisperer, I really don't care to dump stuff in my graveyard until I actually want it there. Having a large window of time in which people can start looking for graveyard hate before I'm ready to utilize those cards in the graveyard always goes badly. With my feelings on Surveil aside, I'd rather play Path to Exile, Ashes to Ashes, Rend Flesh, Eyeblight's Ending, Unmake or a number of other removal spells I'm not currently running before trying Price of Fame.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I decided a few months ago that I wanted to try out Ayli as a commander, because she looked like a commander that was both reliable and complicated enough to have fun with. I started looking up online what people generally do with her and...cleric tribal? Lifegain? It seemed like a waste of a good complex commander with a cheap sac outlet and some interesting odd clauses about trying to get 10 life above your starting total. It was refreshing to see your take on Ayli. Like Blatimer, I was hoping for a way to use Enduring Renewal and Deathrender in a commander deck, two pet cards that I don't get enough chances to use. I am glad to say that one of my friends (who has a $600 Narset deck and a bunch of other cheaper decks) has said of my $100 Ayli deck is evil and degenerate, which, if you knew him, is a compliment. My deck is about $100 market price, though I managed to spend only $70 getting the cards with a bunch of nice trades.
Here's the list:
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Creatures:
Children of Korlis
Viscera Seer
Blood Artist
Leonin Relic-Warder
Reassembling Skeleton
Tidehollow Sculler
Wall of Omens
Zulaport Cutthroat
Cadaver Imp
Corpse Blockade
Fiend Hunter
Grim Haruspex
Merciless Executioner
Pawn of Ulamog
Reveillark
Plaguecrafter
Dimir House Guard
Disciple of Bolas
Galepoweder Mage
Glimmerpoint Stag
Hell's Caretaker
Mindslicer
Ravenous Chupacabra
Restoration Gearsmith
Archon of Justice
Phyrexian Delver
Precursor Golem
Puppeteer Clique
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Twilight Shepherd
Yosei, the Morning Star
Angel of Serenity
Butcher of Malakir
Mournwhelk
Rune-scarred Demon
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Ashen Rider
Vizkopa Guildmage
Knight-Captain of Eos
Instant:
Condemn
Unmake
Vona's Hunger
Sorcery:
Profane Command
Diabolic Tutor
Fumigate
Increasing Ambition
Obzedat's Aid
Phyrexian Rebirth
Planar Cleansing
Day of Judgment
Artifact:
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Traveler's Amulet
Wayfarer's Bauble
Mind Stone
Deathrender
Enchantment:
Phyrexian Reclamation
Oath of Lieges
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena
Underworld Connections
Enduring Renewal
Land: (37)
Bojuka Bog
Evolving Wilds
Frosaken Sanctuary
Geier Reach Sanitarium
High Market
Mistveil Plains
Myriad Landscape
Mystifying Maze
Orzhove Basilica
Orzhov Guildgate
Scoured Barrens
Tainted Field
Temple of Silence
Terramorphic Expanse
11 Plains
12 Swamp
Some things about this deck that are different than others I've seen here:
You've made an argument against putting discard in Ayli because you prefer to have cards like Megrim adding value to the discard plays that you make, and that's fair, but here's my argument for it: This deck can handle creatures and non-land permanents. It has more trouble with spells coming out of nowhere. Against a blue player who has very few creatures or even a no-creature (or, yikes, a no-permanent deck except for their commander) my version of Ayli might flounder unless I can search up one of my discard abilities. For that reason I run Tidehollow Sculler, Mournwhelk, and Mindslicer in my deck. Mindslicer, in my opinion, is more devastating than a boardwipe. As a person with more creatures and enchantments than instants and sorceries, it's not uncommon that I might be either playing out my hand faster than everyone else at the table, or that I have a recursion engine going that can make up the loss from the discard effect. My favorite thing to do before boardwiping is to stick Skullclamp on Mindslicer and watch everyone squirm as they know I could sacrifice it at any time. talk about a rattlesnake.
I am not a specifically bleeder deck, but I do run two lifegain win cons. One is the obvious Kokusho/Vizkopa Guildmage that everyone here is familiar with but the other is Necropotence/Children of Korlis/Vizopa Guildmage. If these three cards resolve with 1BW open, you usually just win, since all of the abilities can be used at instant speed. The combo is: pay all but 1 of your life with necorpotence, use the Guildmage's ability as many times as possible, then gain that much life. (You can do the same with Phyrexian Delver+Fiend Hunter+Ayli+Children of Korlis. Say you're at 10 life facing down lethal damage next turn. Cycle Delver and Fiend Hunter together to break even on life total while creating a 1-mana cost loop. Lose 3 life, gain 3 life, lose 3 life. Sacrifice Children of Korlis and suddenly you're at 50 life, because while, yes, you were staying at 10 life during that process, you did lose 50 life that turn. If you had Vizkopa Guildmage out, you also just won the game. I got a heart handshake after that game. A complicated but satisfying combo that I was holding pieces to in my hand half of the game waiting for the right moment.
While running a deck that loves to have Enduring Renewal or Phyrexian Reclamation + Deathrender out could seem dangerous, I do have a backup if I don't draw into my enchantments, because Deathrender + Angel of Serenity + Twilight Shepherd or Restoration Gearsmith or Cadaver Imp does the same thing.
Oath of Lieges is an underrated card in white mana ramp, first because as the (budget) white/black player, there is someone with more land than you, and second, because if one deck at the table gets manascrewed and someone can't do anything, no one has fun because either someone is salty and bad at losing or the game becomes unblanaced and one player easily wins without the checks and balances of 3 strong players. Oath of Lieges ensures that you have 3 strong enemies rather than 2 or 1, which ensure that you are safer since you can play politics.
Just a note that with Enduring Renewal and Deathrender out, the Yosei Lock costs 1 mana each time you do it, which is very satisfying. Of course, that's not as good as Ashnod+Nim Deathmantle's 0 mana with Karmic Guide out, but I still think it's cool.
With only Deathrender out, I can have a turn like this: Ayli and Children of Korlis are out of the field, the latter equipped with Deathrender. Someone tries to destroy Deathrender, so in response, I sacrifice children of Korlis, putting angel of Serenity down, sac it in response, exile three creature (or sac it when the 1st ability resolves and put 3 creatures in my graveyard into my hand), put down Puppeteer Clique twice, put down Precursor Golem, then put down Mindslicer and sacrifice it. In one response, I've emptied my hand, putting 3 golems on the field, getting 2 of their creatures from the graveyard with puppeteer clique, , gained 12 life, put 2 golems on the field, and emptied everyones hand of responses. Of course, this was against an Intet deck that had a mystical tutor in hand, unfortunately, so he still won that game, but I was still satisfied with that turn in general.
Combo I've been thinking of putting in, but only if it makes the deck better:
Urborg, Tom of Yawgmoth + Korvus Bell+ Admonition Angel + Ghostway or Eerie Interlude + Sac Outlet
If you don't care about exiling, then take out the sac outlet and Admonition Angel put in Pestilence, kill all creatures.
Korvus Bell + Rememberance? Lol
Thanks for reading! Tell me what you think or if you have any suggestions beyond the one's I've read about here =)
-Cinnamon
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Hey there CinnamonBlue! Thanks for taking the time to post! Sorry for taking so long to reply. It's been a heck of a couple months and I haven't even gotten to play Magic more than maybe three times. Anyway, I'm glad you like this spin on Ayli! Orzhov is my favorite guild because you can go so many different ways and be very effective and still do so on a budget
There are some very interesting and neat choices you've made for the deck. I hadn't even heard of Children of Korlis. I can appreciate having pet cards, and although I don't think I would personally play Enduring Renewal because I have a pet peeve about giving my opponents information (revealing every card I draw), I'll stop short of putting it down by any means. It's quite a unique card!
Regarding discard: While there is no denying that the deck can feel like it's faltering against spellslinger or Storm type decks and that discard would help this, it can be a bit of a meta call. I very rarely play against Storm or other spellslinger variants, and thought I do play against Mono-U on occasion, table politics usually drags those players down due to all the players at the table not wanting to put up with getting everything counterspelled or bounced for an hour or more I think it doesn't hurt to try to include discard where they're ETB effects like some of the ones you've chosen. I've always been torn on Mindslicer because I actually love the card, but I really try to have the cards in my build be useful as soon as I draw them, and it Mindslicer tends to want to wait until the most opportune time where you're not losing anything of value in your hand. I'd rather not discard my board wipes, targeted removal, etc. I think because you've focused some of your deck around returning creatures to your hand that it can certainly work for you and am glad you've been able to make it work
I feel like Oath of Lieges's worth in the deck definitely depends on your playgroup. I certainly wouldn't want to play this against a Lord Windgrace or Omnath, Locus of Rage deck where they can constantly ramp out lands by sacrificing lands to various effects. I appreciate that it's a somewhat budget Land Tax, but I really try to not help opponents ramp in Commander before I'm set up to deal with what might come from it. It's not an awful card by any means! But in my meta, Oath of Lieges would probably helps my opponents a bit too much
I will say that Kormus Bell is a very, very risky card, and can lead to other players easily causing a mass land destruction of the table. I personally philosophically avoid mass land destruction or things that enable it because games go so long in Commander, as it is.
Lastly, I'll offer some suggestions/questions!
Condemn vs Swords to Plowshares - Putting creatures back in people's libraries makes me uneasy with all thetutors out there and the chance of seeing that threat again. I was curious why Condemn over Swords?
Unmake vs Other Options - Right now Unmake is sitting around $0.50 USD. Some other options could be Ashes to Ashes letting you hit two targets at the cost of 5 life, and Utter End can hit a wider range of targets, and can be found for around $0.70 these days thanks to being printed again
Planar Cleansing vs Hour of Revelation - A really great card very similar to this is Hour of Revelation! It's only $0.50 if not less, and does the same thing for the same default cost! But often, you'll be able to reduce the cost to only WWW
Mana Rocks - It may be worth trying to trade out Mind Stone and Traveller's Amulet for either Orzhov Signet or Fellwar Stone, or to make room for either/both. It seems like your build is also very colored-mana hungry and these would help activate that Vizkopa Guildmage some more
Tutors! - A couple of great options have become available or cheaper here recently! Diabolic Intent is almost as good as a Demonic Tutor in a deck like Ayli and is sitting around $4.00 since it was reprinted in Battlebond. Additionally, Final Parting can be worth it over Diabolic Tutor for one more mana, especially since you run a lot of recursion from your graveyard to your hand!
That's all I can think of at this moment. I enjoyed reading about your build and some of the different/unique cards you're utilizing!
(Also known as Xenphire)
Yes, Plaguecrafter indeed replaced Merciless Executioner/Fleshbag Marauder in all of my decks. I'm still shocked at how good the thing is.
Other than that, I can't say I was too happy with the set as far as Ayli goes. I was so excited for Mausoleum Secrets the first time I read it when I didn't read that it specified the target had to be a Black card, and Gruesome Menagerie would be sweet if I were running more Entomb-like effects or Buried Alive, but I think the curve is such that it won't consistently a good selection of targets to choose from that would make it effective.
(Also known as Xenphire)
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
And our first foil Phyrexian Tower, as well! I've just now made a list of reprints in the set I'd like to pick up for various decks and it's kind of scary.
(Also known as Xenphire)
This thread inspires me a lot with my Ayli deck building. While my list is close to the Kelzam's one (on a smaller budget), I run some cards that I would want to see your point of view on.
Here is a link to my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ayli-controlcomborecursion/?cb=1543157920.
Your deck looks great! I'd personally add 1 or 2 extra lands, as I found out that, though Ayli costs a mere BW, this deck sometimes can be quite mana-hungry, and it lacks the ramp of G.
I'd recommend caution with the Altar of Dementia: often opponents assume infinite combos (maybe from experiencing Teysa, Orzhov Scion) and try to exile it, even when it's just a sac-outlet (*cough* Reveillark *cough* Karmic Guide). Also: milling opponents enables their recursion/reanimation.
Also: Yosei is a major griever. Expect to draw hate.
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
P.S. I'll be back to reply to y'all's recent posts here soon!
Outgoing
-Faith's Fetters
-Mangara of Corondor
-Nezumi Graverobber
-Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Incoming
+Leonin Relic-Warder
+Gift of Immortality
+Gray Merchant of Asphodel
+Krav, the Unredeemed
1. Mangara of Corondor OUT; Leonin Relic-Warder IN
For quite a while, I haven't felt great about drawing Mangara. While they has been the occasion where I've been able to machine-gun down permanents by combining Mangara with combo pieces, the turn it takes to make him active has too often resulted in him being removed or no longer around to do his job. Enter Leonin Relic-Warder. The deck has plenty of ways to deal with Creatures, but only a small number of ways of dealing with Artifacts and Enchantments. He can use the Fiend Hunter trick to exile his targets permanently, but also comes down for WW allowing you to put a giant wrench in the gears of decks that use Mana Crypt and such to ramp ahead fast. He is also an infinite loop with Necromancy or Gift of Immortality and a sac outlet.
2. Nezumi Graverobber OUT; Gift of Immortality IN
The Graverobber has been a long time patron of the deck since it's inception. However, he has lost favor over time with his mana intensive ability and the difficulty of getting him to flip outside of Turn 1-3. His reanimation ability is fantastic, but ultimately the problem is that the format has sped up since the days he made it into the list. The format has become extremely popular since the early days of this deck, and so more and more content creators and players are pushing optimized decks. More "tier" decks and "competitive" lists means being unable to afford such a large mana investment that looks uncertain, now. Hell's Caretaker was up for consideration for it's place, but ultimately Gift of Immortality felt the best in testing. It combos with Sun Titan, Fiend Hunter and the newly added Leonin Relic-Warder, and is great for recovering from a board wipe, and costs little mana to do so.
3. Faith's Fetters OUT; Grey Merchant of Asphodel IN
"Gary" has long been a consideration for the deck, but it's always been a matter of what to take out for him. Over time with the addition of Anguished Unmaking and Utter End, I've increased the total single target removal that can hit any problem permanents. Occasionally Faith's Fetters would come in handy, particularly in niche cases where I didn't want whatever the permanent was to die. This scenario has become so few and far in between, however, that it finally made sense to take it out and bring in Gary, especially because life drain has become more important. As mentioned in the case of Nezumi Graverobber above, the speed of decks in Commander has been on the rise. Not only is Gary often times a win condition in himself with reanimation shenanigans, but the life drain can offset hits taken early in the game or the use of Necropotence and Toxic Deluge.
4. Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter OUT; Krav, the Unredeemed IN
Another part of the speed of the format rising is attempting to shed large expensive cards that don't do much by themselves, as well as finding more card draw. Vish Kal has been a staple sac outlet in the deck since very early on, but in truth has aged poorly. He is neat and flavorful, but Krav has come to replace him as not only a sac outlet, but life gain and card draw, for significantly cheaper mana investment. I have been very impressed with Krav. I have no plans to run his partner.
Recognition
A few of the regulars that stop by and participate in the thread and discussion have asked about or suggested some of these before. I confess - if it weren't quite obvious - that I can be stubborn about hanging on to what I'm used to for sentimental reasons or because "it works", although I usually do have good reasoning for my own choices. As time has gone on, I've learned to be even more objective with deck building because at my LGS I've found a lot of people come to me for deck advice or to discuss ideas and the meta is maturing on a month-by-month basis as the format has grown. But most of all, thank you to everyone who continues to offer their input and ideas here! I'm thankful for your support for the ideas presented here and positivity as we explore ways to make our opponents bend the knee!
(Also known as Xenphire)
Looks like you're not running Blasting Station, it's one of my favorite wincons and also useful when not using it for the win!
I can also recommend Toxic Deluge, IMO it's the best mass removal spell in the game
I added Bloodghast to my deck, just because of how useful Reassembling Skeleton is (especially with Skullclamp). And with good sac targets, Diabolic Intent is nice as well and very cheap now!
Also I've been trying to lower my mana curve and add more ramp cards. I feel that without that my deck just was too slow (at least for my meta). I like Mox Amber, and Boreas charger as ramp. Also, I really like the Land tax + Scroll rack combo to draw cards + filter lands.
Anyways, if you care to see my list, the links in my sig are all up to date.
GEzuriG
WURaffUW
WBAyliBW
GOmnathG
URMizzixRU
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Hmm I never really considered Promise of Power, I should give it a try, seems very nice late game! (Though cutting something from my Ayli list is a pain compared to my other decks..)
How are you liking Debt to the Deathless? Do you run it only as an infinite-mana finisher, or do you often get to the point where you have the mana to make it worthwhile? I'd love to run it for the Orzhov flavor but I'm not sure it would make the cut.
I also started running Phyrexian Altar to make infinite C, B and W with one of our etb loops, and then use our general to get to infinite life in addition to exiling everything (if the infinite life part wasn't enough ^^) Aside from that, it really helps out early game with extra colored mana. Think I'm gonna keep it in.
edit: typo
GEzuriG
WURaffUW
WBAyliBW
GOmnathG
URMizzixRU