It may help to drop some of the 4 cmc draws and clunkier cards and go a bit more linear. You got the core there now it's time to shave it down. Is 40 enough lands to let Dredge 6 hopefully be able to just mill yourself with a discard outlet? I would think Summoner's Pact is a great add.
Edit: Is the plan to rush to combo asap? I am actually unclear after looking it over again if we're going for break neck speed. Either way, excited to follow this list.
For what it's worth, you can go infinite with Skirge Familiar, free discard outlet, Dakmor Salvage, and an Eldrazi titan to shuffle your deck back. With Gitrog on the field, you can mill your whole deck infinitely, a la Four Horseman, and Extirpate or whichever wincon with infinite mana you want.
It may be worthwhile to change the wincon. As was pointed out: Ooze + Haste + quill/druid (mana), + mana sink wincon is 5 cards.
Instead, : witness + victimize + Mike/Trike = 4 cards.
But you'd rather run the en-vec and the imp? If you run all of the dredge cards (which aren't bad in this build) you can loop forever as far as I'm concerned. Landing Dakmor Salvage is all you really need to get the juices flowing, using the draw triggered from discarding Salvage just to dredge it back. It has great synergy with Sylvan Safekeeper and is instant speed. You could essentially combo off the turn you drop Girtog, with 2 cards in hand. I would suggest a ROE Titan, like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, it shuts off activated ability grave hate like Tomrods Crypt and Relic of Prognetious.
The problem with Zombie Infestation is that I have to discard 2 cards, but only (typically) get 1 card back. This means that I become limited on how many times I can loop. The free single-discard guys can go infinite. Even with the Salvage (which is the only card that lets me actually increase my handsize), pitching it brings it back, but I only have a small chance to hit a land on the dredge to get an extra card. If I do draw a land, and pitch both though, I'll still only draw 1 card, and not two, dues to the frogs "one or more" clause. Infestation is still on the watchlist, since being 2 cost may be enough to justify it, in order to get into another discard outlet, or maybe I can use sac lands to help buff it, but it's a bit shallower on its own, due to the limitations. The effect isn't what I care about, it's the discard itself.
Lotleth Troll could be an add. While he won't let me pitch lands, he'll let me cycle the big dredge creatures fairly easily.
Insidous Dreams could also be an option. A 1 land hand with Dreams turns it into an instant speed Demonic Tutor. It also allows top-deck manipulation for dredge shenanigans. Sensei's Divining Top seems like a worthwhile inclusion as well.
Discarding the land is part of the cost of Dreams so the draw trigger off the Frog resolves before you tutor I believe.
Indeed, if the frog is out, the draw will end up above the dreams. That said, with our other discard/sac options, this may be a perfectly fine tutor for us anyways.
Skirge Familiar is kinda pricy at 5 mana but mills our library and makes a lot of many with any dreger in hand.
I've been cutting the more expensive discard outlets (had some at 4 or 5 initially), in favor of simply tutoring up the cheaper ones, but Familiar is just such a powerful card to ignore.
Yeah, the 4cost draws were in there early to offset the huge CA losses we'd have, especially since GB doesn't have any wheels, which is the standard way to replenish the hand in these things. That may not be necessary though, if we replace them with cheaper tutors/draw. Bazaar I'll add to my list of good cards I'll never have, Swarm I'll add to the list of diruption to add, and Sylvan Library should totally replace one of those. Dosan will go on the disruption list, petrified is actually pretty good, since it'll sac itself, and then give us discard fodder, digging us out of 2 holes. Chains interacts very favorably with dredge, since they are both replacement effects, it would impede our ability to draw off of Dakmor's dredges of lands, but who cares? If you have that, you're winning anyways, and the disruption of opponents could be huge.
A lot of those cards are already in. I like the Genesis as a safety valve as an 'alternate' delayed rez spell. We can always go off on an EOT if needed, though there shouldn't really be a need. Even if dread is in hand, we can discard it.
Realms seems good to get early combo pieces (salvage, esp), and lotus vale is an interesting option to either speed up the Gitrog turn, or even drop on his extra landfall in order to get started, although we need to remember to save that land fall if possible, in order to get bloodghast back for the creature to pay into Dread Return if we don't have a fetch on dryad arbor. Might need to add something like Reassembling Skeleton simply as an extra safety body for that purpose?
The thread title says "No Hermit Needed" but is Hermit Druid actually unwanted here? You're already configured to have it win you the game, except for those basic lands. Seems like it would just lead to some quicker combos and/or draw out removal that would otherwise tag the Frog Horror.
This... is certainly possible. I like the basic land typing for some of the land sac outlets, but perhaps they aren't actually needed, and can be cut. Hermit would add an extra outlet to the deck, though the idea is really more of having hermit in the CZ.
It may help to drop some of the 4 cmc draws and clunkier cards and go a bit more linear. You got the core there now it's time to shave it down. Is 40 enough lands to let Dredge 6 hopefully be able to just mill yourself with a discard outlet? I would think Summoner's Pact is a great add.
Edit: Is the plan to rush to combo asap? I am actually unclear after looking it over again if we're going for break neck speed. Either way, excited to follow this list.
The plan is indeed to combo out ASAP, essentially recreating the Hermit Druid deck, but with the 'druid' mechanic in the Command Zone, meaning one less card to tutor for. While instead we replace that need with a way to power out the Commander quickly, with a need of a discard outlet and a dredge outlet. The idea is that since those 'needs' are such broad categories and have many redundancies, they are easier to replace with tutors and redundant copies, making the combo more easy to power out, and also less disruptable via removal on the key piece, since no haste/turn order required on the druid, and since if the toad is removed, you just re-cast him, and if a discard outlet is removed... do you even care?
For what it's worth, you can go infinite with Skirge Familiar, free discard outlet, Dakmor Salvage, and an Eldrazi titan to shuffle your deck back. With Gitrog on the field, you can mill your whole deck infinitely, a la Four Horseman, and Extirpate or whichever wincon with infinite mana you want.
EDIT: Err, meant Exsanguinate for the wincon :X
This is actually a good point to bring up, and an eldrazi titan could be added to the deck (as it was already recommended for safety reasons), with the rez con being the familiar instead of the other combo, giving a redundant combo in the deck for safety and alt win. Or, the other combo can be removed, as it was a 4 card combo, and this one added, since it's a 2 card requirement...
====
WE ARE NOW DOWN TO 98 CARDS! The problem with the Witness-Victimize combo is that it adds an extra 3 mana to the combo cost, whereas Ooze is free.
By changing to the Skirge Familiar + Titan + Exsanguinate play, we've lowered out required combo card count, and kept the cost free.
The only problem is that we run into the 4 horsemen problem that we need to get the Familiar + Dread Return in the grave, need to be able to return him and NOT sac our commander, and on top of that, the Titan getting randomly dredged is going to mess with all of that, which I'm not sure I like.
Shifting back to ooze combo may be needed to avoid 4 horsemen levels of frustrated stalling, but, you know, details.
If you want to go for speed I would add mana dorks. They also provide Dread Return fodder.
Good idea. Fixed the list with some mana dorks.
Also changed the win-con back to Ooze combo (which re-adds devoted druid as a mana dork too). The 4-horsemen style of loop makes me uncomfortable, though when I do a write up of the deck, I'll explain it as a wincon that uses less cards, though is technically 'slow play.'
This puts us back at 100 cards, but with no disruption.
At this point, I think it comes down to balancing the tutors, mana, dredge count, and discard outlet count, which would take playtesting. Open slots can then become disruption slots. Are the new cards on cockatrice yet?
Removal, such as Tragic Slip, and general utility, like Imp's Mischief, should possibly be added to the supplemental list, as dealing with opposing combo may be useful?
I like nature's claim for sure and I usually run abrupt decay and pernicious deed in these colors. Spot removal options I like are murderous cut, snuff out, go for the Throat. I'd get your combo, tutor and draw packages finalized. Keep disruption to a minimum then the rest is ramp and protection, lots of ramp.
Crop Rotation seems too good. I don't think you need Sign in Blood, there are so many ways to draw already, I would go with some utility in this case Abrupt Decay.
Sadly, Gitrog resembles Sidisi, Brood Tyrant on its trigger wording, which is "one or more lands", so you won't draw a card for each land sacrificed/discarded with a few of those.
Crop Rotation seems too good. I don't think you need Sign in Blood, there are so many ways to draw already, I would go with some utility in this case Abrupt Decay.
The problem with Crop Rotation is that the land tutors are to get Dakmor Salvage, but that I don't want dakmor salvage on the battlefield; I need it in hand or grave. I'm still deciding on it, and how it can best be used.
Sadly, Gitrog resembles Sidisi, Brood Tyrant on its trigger wording, which is "one or more lands", so you won't draw a card for each land sacrificed/discarded with a few of those.
That's fine. Almost everything sacrifices one at a time, or discards one at a time. I don't care if I dredge more lands, just so long as 1 gets hit.
Jarad does sac two, and will only trigger once, but his thing is that he can activate from the grave for free as an emergency reset to get the ball rolling again in case of a whiff.
Crop Rotation seems too good. I don't think you need Sign in Blood, there are so many ways to draw already, I would go with some utility in this case Abrupt Decay.
The problem with Crop Rotation is that the land tutors are to get Dakmor Salvage, but that I don't want dakmor salvage on the battlefield; I need it in hand or grave. I'm still deciding on it, and how it can best be used.
Sadly, Gitrog resembles Sidisi, Brood Tyrant on its trigger wording, which is "one or more lands", so you won't draw a card for each land sacrificed/discarded with a few of those.
That's fine. Almost everything sacrifices one at a time, or discards one at a time. I don't care if I dredge more lands, just so long as 1 gets hit.
Jarad does sac two, and will only trigger once, but his thing is that he can activate from the grave for free as an emergency reset to get the ball rolling again in case of a whiff.
Meant to specify that that message was for cards like Scapeshift and the like. But your points still stand.
Sadly, Gitrog resembles Sidisi, Brood Tyrant on its trigger wording, which is "one or more lands", so you won't draw a card for each land sacrificed/discarded with a few of those.
That's unfortunate. It's like WotC is trying to prevent us from breaking things.
Here's where I'm at so far. Obviously most of this is the core list and some other cards mentioned already so I'll just cover what I haven't seen yet. Still needs Imperial Seal and Bazaar of Baghdad but I don't have these.
There's some with a Bitter Ordeal wincon, using a titan to reshuffle. Still runs into the 4-horsemen situation, since you can't definitively say the end result of how many loops = how many storm copies, plus, you need permanents to go to GY, not permanent cards. Think this one isn't quite clear cut.
Here's one of them: https://deckstats.net/decks/18606/451602-gitrog-bitter-ordeal-combo/en
This one is quite closer to ours: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/24-03-16-Qfa-the-gitrog-monster/
Using a Greenwarden of Murasa as the dread return target, and then saccing it to Cabal Therapy to return the two kill pieces. Sadly, I don't think we have the creature count to make that a lethal exsanguinate, necessarily. I think my combo needs to be more infinite, though there is something in double-tapping the Greenwarden as opposed to E.Witt that I like. Also, Bridge from Below doesn't work like this guy thinks it does, methinks.
This one is quite closer to ours: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/24-03-16-Qfa-the-gitrog-monster/
Using a Greenwarden of Murasa as the dread return target, and then saccing it to Cabal Therapy to return the two kill pieces. Sadly, I don't think we have the creature count to make that a lethal exsanguinate, necessarily. I think my combo needs to be more infinite, though there is something in double-tapping the Greenwarden as opposed to E.Witt that I like. Also, Bridge from Below doesn't work like this guy thinks it does, methinks.
I like this one! That looks like an upgraded win con to me.
EDIT: You just added mana dorks, you're at 23 creatures right now. Plus you can flash back all the fast mana that got milled. I think Exsanguinate is very doable.
So, you need 1 mana to start, which is no issue, since we get a free land drop thanks to Monster. Then it takes Greenwarden + Songs + Therapy (which we'd run for disruption anyways) + Exsang = which is 4 cards.
Instead of: Ooze - Quill - Druid (which is a manadork count) - haste (skittles) - sink = which is 5 cards
Swapping them out right now wouldn't change the deck count any, and simply add Cabal Therapy into the list. It would also only put us at 18 creatures in the list - which isn't enough to kill a 40 life table, let alone if somehow anyone gained life.
It's a card shallower, but I think the infinite reach still keeps the edge. :/
I bet though, that we could find something better to do with that mana than a lethal exsang, maybe. There's a good starting shell there, we just need to fix it.
So, you need 1 mana to start, which is no issue, since we get a free land drop thanks to Monster. Then it takes Greenwarden + Songs + Therapy (which we'd run for disruption anyways) + Exsang = which is 4 cards.
Instead of: Ooze - Quill - Druid (which is a manadork count) - haste (skittles) - sink = which is 5 cards
Swapping them out right now wouldn't change the deck count any, and simply add Cabal Therapy into the list. It would also only put us at 18 creatures in the list - which isn't enough to kill a 40 life table, let alone if somehow anyone gained life.
It's a card shallower, but I think the infinite reach still keeps the edge. :/
I bet though, that we could find something better to do with that mana than a lethal exsang, maybe. There's a good starting shell there, we just need to fix it.
I kind of ninja edited my post but we can do this. You can sac your commander to Dread Return so that's one more. You get to flash back all your fast mana too. I think tweaking the deck to add more creatures is a good thing so you can play Survival.
I'm inclined to agree that an actual infinite combo is better than Songs/YawgWill/Exsanguinate. Assuming that every creature in the deck is in the yard, including the toad, and you have no open mana from lands/creatures/whatever, the most mana this list on tappedout can achieve is 53, so a total Exsanguinate with x=51. A lot of decks can get higher than that (though, admittedly, not that many in CEDH) and it's more reliant on dodging early grave hate than the Ooze combo.
Also, Insidious Dreams costs 4 mana (you have it listed as 2 in the op).
So, you need 1 mana to start, which is no issue, since we get a free land drop thanks to Monster. Then it takes Greenwarden + Songs + Therapy (which we'd run for disruption anyways) + Exsang = which is 4 cards.
Instead of: Ooze - Quill - Druid (which is a manadork count) - haste (skittles) - sink = which is 5 cards
another option is the dread return target could be e.witt, returning victimize to your hand and animating mike and trike.
Here's where I'm at so far. Obviously most of this is the core list and some other cards mentioned already so I'll just cover what I haven't seen yet. Still needs Imperial Seal and Bazaar of Baghdad but I don't have these.
I like Sylvan tutor, but I think the orb and tangle wire are too slow. I like the cards, and I like the synergy with the Commander, but if Kermit hits the field, we should be winning that turn already.
another option is the dread return target could be e.witt, returning victimize to your hand and animating mike and trike.
Yeah, I looked at that one earlier in the thread, and briefly switched to it, since it cuts out a card, but the only issue with it is that you need to generate an extra 3 mana to set it off, whereas Necrotic Ooze combo is free to kick off (You can discard a card to Ooze using Skirge Familiar's ability to kick off the haste).
I guess we could swap e.witt with greenwarden, and add the Songs to get the needed mana, but then you need, which would give some combo redundancy.
Actually.
That could work.
Instead of Victimize, make it Dread -> Green Warden (songs) -> sac green to therapy (yawgwin) -> Songs of the Damned -> Yawgwin -> Songs -> hardcast Mike/Trike?
That would mean adding Greenwarden of Murasa + Songs of the Damned + Cabal Therapy + Mike + Trike. = 5. Hm. Still same count. But it gets cabal Therapy into the deck, remains infinite, and gives us a YawgWin activation to use up the graveyard as plan B? maybe?
I think Tangle Wire is fine. Winter Orb may be too slow but my concern is getting Dread Return countered and there aren't many options to stop that. Maybe Defense Grid? Mike + Trike opens you up to spot removal. Just using Greenwarden also opens you up to bounce and exile removal.
EDIT: I suppose they counter the frog instead so that is what I'm worried about getting countered more than Dread Return. Basically counters suck.
Edit: Is the plan to rush to combo asap? I am actually unclear after looking it over again if we're going for break neck speed. Either way, excited to follow this list.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
EDIT: Err, meant Exsanguinate for the wincon :X
Instead, : witness + victimize + Mike/Trike = 4 cards.
The problem with Zombie Infestation is that I have to discard 2 cards, but only (typically) get 1 card back. This means that I become limited on how many times I can loop. The free single-discard guys can go infinite. Even with the Salvage (which is the only card that lets me actually increase my handsize), pitching it brings it back, but I only have a small chance to hit a land on the dredge to get an extra card. If I do draw a land, and pitch both though, I'll still only draw 1 card, and not two, dues to the frogs "one or more" clause. Infestation is still on the watchlist, since being 2 cost may be enough to justify it, in order to get into another discard outlet, or maybe I can use sac lands to help buff it, but it's a bit shallower on its own, due to the limitations. The effect isn't what I care about, it's the discard itself.
Lotleth Troll could be an add. While he won't let me pitch lands, he'll let me cycle the big dredge creatures fairly easily.
Indeed, if the frog is out, the draw will end up above the dreams. That said, with our other discard/sac options, this may be a perfectly fine tutor for us anyways. I've been cutting the more expensive discard outlets (had some at 4 or 5 initially), in favor of simply tutoring up the cheaper ones, but Familiar is just such a powerful card to ignore. Yeah, the 4cost draws were in there early to offset the huge CA losses we'd have, especially since GB doesn't have any wheels, which is the standard way to replenish the hand in these things. That may not be necessary though, if we replace them with cheaper tutors/draw. Bazaar I'll add to my list of good cards I'll never have, Swarm I'll add to the list of diruption to add, and Sylvan Library should totally replace one of those. Dosan will go on the disruption list, petrified is actually pretty good, since it'll sac itself, and then give us discard fodder, digging us out of 2 holes. Chains interacts very favorably with dredge, since they are both replacement effects, it would impede our ability to draw off of Dakmor's dredges of lands, but who cares? If you have that, you're winning anyways, and the disruption of opponents could be huge. A lot of those cards are already in. I like the Genesis as a safety valve as an 'alternate' delayed rez spell. We can always go off on an EOT if needed, though there shouldn't really be a need. Even if dread is in hand, we can discard it.
Realms seems good to get early combo pieces (salvage, esp), and lotus vale is an interesting option to either speed up the Gitrog turn, or even drop on his extra landfall in order to get started, although we need to remember to save that land fall if possible, in order to get bloodghast back for the creature to pay into Dread Return if we don't have a fetch on dryad arbor. Might need to add something like Reassembling Skeleton simply as an extra safety body for that purpose? This... is certainly possible. I like the basic land typing for some of the land sac outlets, but perhaps they aren't actually needed, and can be cut. Hermit would add an extra outlet to the deck, though the idea is really more of having hermit in the CZ. The plan is indeed to combo out ASAP, essentially recreating the Hermit Druid deck, but with the 'druid' mechanic in the Command Zone, meaning one less card to tutor for. While instead we replace that need with a way to power out the Commander quickly, with a need of a discard outlet and a dredge outlet. The idea is that since those 'needs' are such broad categories and have many redundancies, they are easier to replace with tutors and redundant copies, making the combo more easy to power out, and also less disruptable via removal on the key piece, since no haste/turn order required on the druid, and since if the toad is removed, you just re-cast him, and if a discard outlet is removed... do you even care?
This is actually a good point to bring up, and an eldrazi titan could be added to the deck (as it was already recommended for safety reasons), with the rez con being the familiar instead of the other combo, giving a redundant combo in the deck for safety and alt win. Or, the other combo can be removed, as it was a 4 card combo, and this one added, since it's a 2 card requirement...
====
WE ARE NOW DOWN TO 98 CARDS! The problem with the Witness-Victimize combo is that it adds an extra 3 mana to the combo cost, whereas Ooze is free.
By changing to the Skirge Familiar + Titan + Exsanguinate play, we've lowered out required combo card count, and kept the cost free.
The only problem is that we run into the 4 horsemen problem that we need to get the Familiar + Dread Return in the grave, need to be able to return him and NOT sac our commander, and on top of that, the Titan getting randomly dredged is going to mess with all of that, which I'm not sure I like.
Shifting back to ooze combo may be needed to avoid 4 horsemen levels of frustrated stalling, but, you know, details.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Also changed the win-con back to Ooze combo (which re-adds devoted druid as a mana dork too). The 4-horsemen style of loop makes me uncomfortable, though when I do a write up of the deck, I'll explain it as a wincon that uses less cards, though is technically 'slow play.'
This puts us back at 100 cards, but with no disruption.
At this point, I think it comes down to balancing the tutors, mana, dredge count, and discard outlet count, which would take playtesting. Open slots can then become disruption slots. Are the new cards on cockatrice yet?
Removal, such as Tragic Slip, and general utility, like Imp's Mischief, should possibly be added to the supplemental list, as dealing with opposing combo may be useful?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Greenseeker/Silverglade Pathfinder: power dredge and get you the lands you need, decent discard outlet.
Nantuko Cultivator: Double up on the Gitrog's ability.
Rites of Spring: Land search + discard.
Reprocess/Scapeshift: Powerful draw with Gitrog.
Volrath's Dungeon: Will probably only last for a single turn, but it makes for powerful disruption.
Dark Deal: You will usually come out ahead with this wheel.
Delirium Skeins: General makes this pretty one-sided.
Memory Jar: Another non R/U wheel option.
That's fine. Almost everything sacrifices one at a time, or discards one at a time. I don't care if I dredge more lands, just so long as 1 gets hit.
Jarad does sac two, and will only trigger once, but his thing is that he can activate from the grave for free as an emergency reset to get the ball rolling again in case of a whiff.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Meant to specify that that message was for cards like Scapeshift and the like. But your points still stand.
That's unfortunate. It's like WotC is trying to prevent us from breaking things.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Discard
1 Putrid Imp
1 Raven's Crime
2 Oona's Prowler
2 Wild Mongrel
Sac
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Rain of Filth
2 Squandered Resources
4 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Tutor
0 Summoner's Pact
1 Crop Rotation
1 Entomb
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
4 Jarad's Orders
1x Green Sun's Zenith
Utility
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Dosan the Falling Leaf
3 Yawgmoth's Will
Dredge
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Thug
2 Life from the Loam
3 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
5 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
2 Lotus Cobra
Mana
0 Chrome Mox
0 Lion's Eye Diamond
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
1 Dark Ritual
1 Exploration
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Combo
2 Blightspeaker
2 Bloodghast
2 Devoted Druid
3 Quillspike
4 Dread Return
4 Necrotic Ooze
5 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Draw
2 Night's Whisper
2 Sylvan Library
3 Read the Bones
Disruption
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Winter Orb
3 Beast Within
3 Desolation
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Tangle Wire
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Barren Moor
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 City of Brass
1 City of Traitors
1 Command Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tainted Wood
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Cemetary
1 Wooded Foothills
12 Basics
Here's where I'm at so far. Obviously most of this is the core list and some other cards mentioned already so I'll just cover what I haven't seen yet. Still needs Imperial Seal and Bazaar of Baghdad but I don't have these.
Winter Orb/Tangle Wire/Desolation - This list is more geared for hitting extra land drops and dodges these cards pretty well.
Sylvan Tutor/Grim Tutor/Survival of the Fittest - More tutors.
Lotus Cobra/Azusa, Lost but Seeking - This is to further push the landfall theme. My land count has gotten low enough (34) that these might be too cute.
Phyrexian Revoker - He stops a lot of common grave hate and is easy to fetch. I'd like something better.
Sensei's Divining Top - Helps dig.
Ancient Tomb - Makes Crop Rotation a lot better and is also a very good card.
City of Traitors - More fast mana that synergizes with the commmander.
There's some with a Bitter Ordeal wincon, using a titan to reshuffle. Still runs into the 4-horsemen situation, since you can't definitively say the end result of how many loops = how many storm copies, plus, you need permanents to go to GY, not permanent cards. Think this one isn't quite clear cut.
Here's one of them:
https://deckstats.net/decks/18606/451602-gitrog-bitter-ordeal-combo/en
This one is quite closer to ours:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/24-03-16-Qfa-the-gitrog-monster/
Using a Greenwarden of Murasa as the dread return target, and then saccing it to Cabal Therapy to return the two kill pieces. Sadly, I don't think we have the creature count to make that a lethal exsanguinate, necessarily. I think my combo needs to be more infinite, though there is something in double-tapping the Greenwarden as opposed to E.Witt that I like. Also, Bridge from Below doesn't work like this guy thinks it does, methinks.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
EDIT: You just added mana dorks, you're at 23 creatures right now. Plus you can flash back all the fast mana that got milled. I think Exsanguinate is very doable.
Instead of: Ooze - Quill - Druid (which is a manadork count) - haste (skittles) - sink = which is 5 cards
Swapping them out right now wouldn't change the deck count any, and simply add Cabal Therapy into the list. It would also only put us at 18 creatures in the list - which isn't enough to kill a 40 life table, let alone if somehow anyone gained life.
It's a card shallower, but I think the infinite reach still keeps the edge. :/
I bet though, that we could find something better to do with that mana than a lethal exsang, maybe. There's a good starting shell there, we just need to fix it.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Also, Insidious Dreams costs 4 mana (you have it listed as 2 in the op).
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Well. That's just sucky then. I wonder why I thought 2... probably because of Nostalgic Dreams. =/ I think I found my slot for sylvan tutor.
Yeah, I looked at that one earlier in the thread, and briefly switched to it, since it cuts out a card, but the only issue with it is that you need to generate an extra 3 mana to set it off, whereas Necrotic Ooze combo is free to kick off (You can discard a card to Ooze using Skirge Familiar's ability to kick off the haste).
I guess we could swap e.witt with greenwarden, and add the Songs to get the needed mana, but then you need, which would give some combo redundancy.
Actually.
That could work.
Instead of Victimize, make it Dread -> Green Warden (songs) -> sac green to therapy (yawgwin) -> Songs of the Damned -> Yawgwin -> Songs -> hardcast Mike/Trike?
That would mean adding Greenwarden of Murasa + Songs of the Damned + Cabal Therapy + Mike + Trike. = 5. Hm. Still same count. But it gets cabal Therapy into the deck, remains infinite, and gives us a YawgWin activation to use up the graveyard as plan B? maybe?
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
EDIT: I suppose they counter the frog instead so that is what I'm worried about getting countered more than Dread Return. Basically counters suck.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
My thought is usually more proactive rather than preventative: to use all the discard spells on the turn of, or turns prior.
Mainly from watching Moxnix's storm videos, I'll admit.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek