You have a few cards that both you and I are not excited about (Trygon Predator and Lodestone Golem).
Nah, Lodestone Golem isn't really that bad. Sure, it's my worst tax effect, but they add up and he's actually my best beater. If I were to cut disruption, first cards out would be Trygon Predator and Static Orb.
If you were looking to add more counterspells, Deprive and Unified Will might be worth looking into. They both have serious drawbacks but depending on your meta and boardstate could work out.
While Deprive is indeed an option to consider, I won't touch Unified Will with a ten foot pole. I hate conditional counters with a fiery passion - they always backfire on me when they're needed the most.
Have you ever tested Druids' Repository? It fulfills a similar role to Nature's Will.
But it's so much worse... The power of Nature's Will lies not only in breaking Stasis - it also allows me to regain control of the board after a wipe, because a single hit with one creature taps down multiple lands. I'd rather play Carpet of Flowers (much more narrow, but much more powerful) than Druids' Repository.
My pods were pretty weird this time. My meta is usually heavy blue, but last Thursday the only blue player I faced during the whole evening was Tasigur Reanimator - the rest were various creature decks like Prossh or Yisan. Reveillark turned out to be pretty decent: I've played with him before and cut him, because he wasn't doing enough against heavy blue spellslingers, but against creature decks he's actually OK. He's a bit slow, but attacks in the air and adds some much needed resiliency, especially with Pod online. Besides, Rhystic Study sucked anyway, so Reveillark stays, at least until I find something better or more important.
As for Captain Sisay, I never drew her, so I'll take her for a spin again next week to see if she's worth it.
I also managed to borrow Horizon Canopy, which went in the Sunpetal Grove slot. Just as expected, the Canopy was great and I will swap them permanently as soon as I bite the bullet and buy that overpriced card. Edit: After a week I finally got to try Captain Sisay and she's awesome. Yes, she needs to survive a turn, but after that she becomes a crazy tutor machine. Farewell, Trygon Predator - you won't be missed.
Two other observations after the last EDH evening:
1) Peacekeeper is incredibly annoying - yet another card I had to add to the Scary section.
2) In two different games I had all my lands wiped out (first time by Ruination, second time by a cycled Decree of Annihilation) and I managed to win both of them, because I needed the least resources to recover. These games got me thinking: maybe playing geddons myself is actually a correct approach? I have to try it sometime in the future.
Last weeks brought a pretty important change: WotC decided to change Winter Orb back to its original functionality, which means it now works only when untapped. At first I didn't think much of it, but after playtesting it turned out to be pretty crucial. Let's break it down:
There is one benefit: if I have Winter Orb out and Derevi in my command zone, I can flash her in during my last opponent's end step, tap the Orb and then untap all my lands in my turn. It's nice, but it doesn't come up all that often - so far I did it only once. I don't have any sacrifice outlets except for Birthing Pod (and if I have Pod running, I'm already winning anyway) and in general I much rather prefer tapping my opponents' stuff under orbs than tapping/untapping mine.
There are at least three severe drawbacks: Winter Orb is now significantly weaker with my Tangle Wire, it's even worse with my Root Maze, and let's not forget that my opponents can now turn it off as well. Sure, nobody's really playing the ol' Icy these days, but there are other cards like Turnabout, Mind Over Matter, Opposition, Blind Obedience, Kismet, Frozen Æther or Loxodon Gatekeeper. There's metagaming too - right after the EMA Winter Orb was spoiled, a guy from my playgroup immediately bought two copies of Blinkmoth Well, which I already had to face last Thursday.
All in all, this change is pretty bad for Derevi Prison. It's not backbreaking by any means, since it's only one card and there are several alternatives to it, but it's bad nevertheless.
In other news, I made two changes to my list, one of which is already permanent - the other one I'm still testing. First off, I finally cut Static Orb. It was the worst of my lock pieces by far: pretty hard to break for me and gave my opponents too much room to breathe. I don't remember the last time I used it offensively - it either rotted in my hand or was cast defensively just to buy me some time. I took a page from Karador's book instead and replaced Static Orb with Spirit of the Labyrinth, which has been fantastic for me. Sure, it's awkward with my Edric, Spymaster of Trest or Consecrated Sphinx, but this deck is full of nonbos already and Spirit of the Labyrinth is way more annoying for my opponents than for me. Watching blue combo players twiddle their thumbs over their Brainstorms, Ponders, Impulses, Mulldrifters, Time Spirals, Windfalls, Wheel of Fortunes, Timetwisters, not being able to abuse Prime Speaker Zegana, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Memory Jar etc. is a true joy to behold, let me tell you.
I'm also trying Fiend Hunter as per Donald's suggestion, but it's too early to decide if it's good enough to warrant a spot - we'll see.
What about Eidolon of Rhetoric? I've seen it in Karador and it worked wonders against spellslinger and big mana strategies. When your taxes are out it doesn't do much but if they are dealt with it prevents opps from dumping their hands into play right away. Can give you time to find another lock pieces.
I thought about it and it's definitely on my watchlist, but for now it stays on the sidelines. The main reason is that my deck is at its best when I dump my hand on the table very early and Eidolon of Rhetoric doesn't exactly help with that. I'll try it out some day though, that's for sure.
Squeeze is an incredibly narrow card. It's affected by almost all my taxes (except for GAAIV), so it would cost like 5 or 6 mana in most cases, and on top of that it can't be cast under Gaddock Teeg, which is one of my most frequent tutor targets.
Fortunately Humility doesn't really exist anymore in my meta. As for Cyclonic Rift, I have no idea what you're talking about since neither Squeeze nor Gaddock Teeg do anything against it...
of course your metagame dictates if it can be usefull at all.
Most of the cards you listed either don't exist in my meta (i.e. Austere Command or Perish) or are usually being cast before Squeeze gets online (i.e. Ponder or Three Visits), which leaves basically Demonic Tutor and Toxic Deluge (and by the way, Teeg is way better than Squeeze against Wrath of God or Austere Command). Yes, Toxic Deluge is very annoying, but I don't think it's enough to justify playing Squeeze.
imo it is easy to dismiss alot of cards that arent established staples - so i like to test and sometimes recomend if i had success with them.
Oh, I do realize that - I'm playing several cards like that myself (Root Maze, Willbreaker or Nature's Will). I'm taking every piece of advice very seriously, but Gaddock Teeg is such a crucial card for my deck that every card he stops from hitting the board has to go under heavy scrutiny to warrant a slot.
What a lovely read. I think I'll use your list as a baseline to start some experimentation from, thanks for the extensive explanations/discussion.
I'd like to quickly chip in that Eidolon of Rhetoric isn't necessarily a nonbo with you barfing your hand. You can just play him as the last spell in a thick chain of low CMC thunder. It works wonders in my Daxos the Returned, which is the mellow hippy cousin of your list However, that list has a mana sink on tap, which makes the effect a bit ridiculous.
Have you guys seen new Thalia?
[...]
She'll be a new staple here.
To be honest, I'm in two minds about her. Creatures entering tapped is kind of meh (unless there's something like Earthcraft or Chord of Calling involved), so she would be played mostly for nonbasic land hate. That seems good enough, but the more colors my opponents play, the better she'll be, and we have several different monocolored decks in our meta (your Sheoldred among them).
Obviously I'll be testing the new Thalia as soon as Eldritch Moon arrives, but I was more excited after seeing Vryn Wingmare spoiled than after seeing her.
I'd like to quickly chip in that Eidolon of Rhetoric isn't necessarily a nonbo with you barfing your hand. You can just play him as the last spell in a thick chain of low CMC thunder.
Yeah, but the later I play him, the more time I give to my opponents, and they can have explosive openings as well. I'll try him out at some point, but for now I'm testing Fiend Hunter and there's new Thalia coming as well, so Eidolon has to wait.
i like eidolon of rhetoric in my alesha list against decks like narset, wanderer and non pestermite kiki combo decks because these decks can overcome my boardstate in a single turn.
last friday i dropped tangle wire turn3 and it delayed wanderer just for one turn. rule of law would have denied him that blowout turn 4. so its definite a meta card that can save me.
I don't have a Maelstrom Wanderer deck in my meta anymore (I used to have one, but the guy piloting it took it apart), so that's out. I admit that Eidolon of Rhetoric would be very painful to several decks in my meta (like Mizzix, Zur, Narset or even something like Ezuri), but unfortunately it would be pretty painful to me as well. I run a lot of different symmetrical stax effects, but I'm able to overcome most of them - this one hurts me just as much as anyone else and I can't do much about it.
A very common line with Derevi goes like this: play something like Sakashima, Nature's Will or some tax effects in the first main, swing with the team, tap your opponents down and drop an orb or Stasis in the second main - with Eidolon out it's not possible. And let's not forget that he also prevents me from dumping my hand at once (either in the early game or after Edric/Sphinx/Library) and makes my countermagic much worse. All in all, I'm not sure if he belongs here - I'll try him out at some point, but Thalia, Heretic Cathar is first in line.
What do you think about a version with brago to blink stuff so that the prison elements don't hit you that hard
I don't like Brago, to be honest. He costs four mana, you need to untap with him to do anything (there's only one card like that in my deck - Captain Sisay, which is way better) and even then you need either a lot of artifact mana or a lot of ETB creatures. This is Stony Silence/Null Rod/Hushwing Gryff deck, mind you, and I currently don't have many targets to blink with Brago - it would require a serious rebuilding to run him here. Edit: Yesterday I had one of the craziest openings this deck can have: turn 1 Birthing Pod, turn 2 Consecrated Sphinx, turn 3 Derevi -> sac for Sakashima -> in response Derevi again -> swing with the Sphinx -> Stasis. Winning on turn three with a non-combo deck feels pretty good.
In unrelated news, I took a new Thalia for a spin and unfortunately the results aren't promising so far (Root Maze is so much better...). I'll try her again next week though, maybe she'll prove her worth.
How's The deck doing? Have you tried incorporating Recruiter of the Guard or Sanctum Prelate? Tamiyo is interesting but it seems weird to try her when you haven't tried JTMS. His Brainstorming can prevent you from running out of gas.
How's the deck doing? Have you tried incorporating Recruiter of the Guard or Sanctum Prelate?
It's doing great - it's by far the most powerful deck I've ever put together and ruining other people's gameplans is a lot of fun. I don't see myself abandoning it as long as Derevi is legal in this format.
Regarding Recruiter of the Guard and Sanctum Prelate: I'm not interested in either of them. Recruiter is too slow for me - I want my tutors to be either fast or repeatable and Recruiter is neither. I could see him being good in various different decks (especially with Food Chain or Skullclamp), but not here.
As for Sanctum Prelate, I'm not sure if this card is even playable in EDH at all, not to mention in this deck... In multiplayer it's way too narrow, there is no good number you can set her on.
Tamiyo is interesting but it seems weird to try her when you haven't tried JTMS. His Brainstorming can prevent you from running out of gas.
There are two problems with planeswalkers in this deck - be it Tezzeret (which I've tried in the past), Tamiyo, JTMS or whatever:
1) They are noncreature spells with CMC 4+, which means that they are affected with almost all my taxes (except GAAIV) and most importantly, they are uncastable under Gaddock Teeg. Paying about six mana for a walker because I happen to have some taxes on the table isn't very exciting, and having it stuck in my hand because there's a kithkin on the table is even worse.
2) They are non-tutorable, which means that they rarely show up. I've been testing Tamiyo for like a month or so and I'm still not sure if she's worth it, because in most of my games I simply don't have access to her. So far I drew her only in two games - in one of them I was dead next turn anyway, and in the other one I was already winning even without her.
(BTW: even if Tamiyo turns out lacking, she's still way better than JTMS here. I'm not playing durdly control, I'm trying to lock my opponents down as soon as possible.)
I have one slot I'm still thinking about. At first it was Crop Rotation, which was decent, but had only two worthy targets, which irked me to no end. After that it was Fiend Hunter - again, pretty decent, but nothing spectacular. Then I tried Thalia, Heretic Cathar, which was unfortunately disappointing (too narrow, doesn't do anything against half of my meta and against the other half it's acceptable only if dropped very early). Now I'm trying Tamiyo, Field Researcher - if she fails as well, I'll probably go back to Fiend Hunter, but I'm still looking for better options.
"Swift's approach however doesn't convince me at all, because it looks like a classic "Jack of all trades, master of none". He's trying to combine three different strategies (stax, combo and value midrange), but dedicated stax is faster, dedicated combo is also faster and true midrange has more resiliency."
Within competitive metas, the main problem Bant has is surviving into the midgame. Bant wincons are all fairly slow. If you play Bant you will never see T1 or T2 wins. So if you sit across from fast combo, or UBX combo control, you need some way, somehow to slow them down. And the best way to do that is to use taxers. It doesn't matter if you play Bant combo or midrange, you need stax elements because you will never be faster or more efficient than dedicated combodecks playing UB. So if you want to win, the only question is whether or not you want to play full stax or a hybrid stax strategy. Removal and answer heavy metas (like mine) are terrible for aggressive stax strategies. Your pieces don't stick and you hit top-deck mode very early. Then your poor card quality comes into play and you just can't get back into the game. Therefore, in my experience, a hyrbid stax midrange strategy is the optimal approach for Bant (in my meta); I just call it tempo. I was able to take games at an average clip despite being public enemy #1, usually on the back of Survival of the Fittest with Masked Admirers + PoK. So I would have to disagree with your analysis
I'm still missing a few lock pieces I consider crucial (Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Sphere of Resistance, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and no Gaea's Cradle) and can't establish complete dominance as easily as you might be able to. With that in mind, I'll bring up a card I've been playtesting recently. There's enough redundancy that with aggressive mulligans, opening hands will usually have 1-2 fast mana pieces, 2ish lands, 2ish taxers / lock pieces, and a tutor, an engine, or draw. Sometimes you become flooded, or mulligan down to 5-6 cards in order to even have a decent start.
Ultimately, I frequently found myself moving close to topdeck mode after dumping my hand in the first few turns of the game. At this point I usually have plenty of mana, with little to do, and so I began testing Mentor of the Meek. I have truly been pleasantly surprised (in the two games I've drawn into, or had in opening hands). Being able to replace the Llanowar Elves you draw mid game is a beautiful thing. Perhaps I don't pilot the deck correctly, or I just need to mulligan better. But it may be worth throwing on your short list of things to try.
Jace's Archivist still stands out as a card that's been sitting in the deck for weeks, that I have not yet cast or tutored. Though I'm interested to see how he works.
Bant wincons are all fairly slow. If you play Bant you will never see T1 or T2 wins.
That's only partially true. Example: last Thursday I had a game when I kept a hand of two fetches, ESG, Enlightened Tutor, GAAIV, Cpt. Sisay and Root Maze, my first draw being Avacyn's Pilgrim. Technically speaking, my opponents conceded on turn five or so, but in reality I had already won on turn two, when I had GAAIV with Root Maze on board and they had their hands full of fetchlands and no immediate answer. In similar venue, about a month ago I had a game with turn 1 Pod, turn 2 Sphinx, turn 3 Sakashima+Stasis lock. Yes, hands like that don't happen often, but they do happen once in a while.
It doesn't matter if you play Bant combo or midrange, you need stax elements because you will never be faster or more efficient than dedicated combodecks playing UB.
I'm not sure if I can agree with that - in my experience dedicated UBx cantrip-based combo decks have a very hard time beating full stax Derevi. I've played against Jeleva Storm, LabMan Zur, Tasigur Reanimator etc. many times and while Tasigur managed to steal some games once in a while, I have yet to lose to any Ad Nauseam deck. Going full stax means that a quarter of my deck is disruption and unless they have a god hand that wins on turn 1 or 2, they will fight an uphill battle.
My deck has some weak spots and bad matchups, sure, but I don't see UB(x) full combo as one of them - quite the opposite.
Removal and answer heavy metas (like mine) are terrible for aggressive stax strategies. Your pieces don't stick and you hit top-deck mode very early.
Removal and answers tend to be spell-based (instant and sorceries mostly), which I don't have much trouble fighting. Come to think of it, the most troublesome opponents for my Derevi are probably versatile green-based hybrid decks with diversified manabases that can switch roles between aggro and combo or combo and control on the fly (think Prossh, Zegana and the like).
Therefore, in my experience, a hybrid stax midrange strategy is the optimal approach for Bant (in my meta); I just call it tempo.
I'm starting to think that the most important thing here is the "in my meta" part. Some things work better in one metagame, some other work better elsewhere. For example, if my meta wasn't infested with Gilded Drakes, Briberies, Reanimates, Animate Deads etc., I would probably cut three cards for the Survival-Retainers-Elesh Norn package, but as it stands, I can't really do it. Maybe in your meta the hybrid approach works better, I don't know - but in mine the full stax works wonders.
Your first priorities should be Linvala plus one of Null Rod/Stony Silence package - they are really crucial in many matchups and I tutor for them pretty frequently. The least important is probably Sphere of Resistance - it's just another lock piece for redundancy purposes, nothing special.
I began testing Mentor of the Meek. I have truly been pleasantly surprised (in the two games I've drawn into, or had in opening hands). Being able to replace the Llanowar Elves you draw mid game is a beautiful thing. Perhaps I don't pilot the deck correctly, or I just need to mulligan better. But it may be worth throwing on your short list of things to try.
Jace's Archivist still stands out as a card that's been sitting in the deck for weeks, that I have not yet cast or tutored. Though I'm interested to see how he works.
While I didn't try any of these two, Jace's Archivist looks much more promising to me than Mentor of the Meek. Mentor is very mana hungry and doesn't help much when in topdeck mode - I don't think I can afford playing the inferior white draw when I have an access to much more efficient blue or even green ones.
If you want to argue Bant is faster than Tier 1 combo decks playing UBX prepare to get laughed at. Umm, nowhere did I suggest stax has a bad matchup against UBX combo. Your blanket statement implying that Bant midrange and combo are better than hybrid stax versions of Bant is dead wrong. Whenever you are not faster than opponents sitting across from you, you must have ways to slow them down.
I'll echo what previous posters said in this thread: you need more engines. Your approach is too fragile without them. If your first few pieces don't stick your game is over. You run half as many tutors/engine pieces/draw as my Derevi, Glix's version runs 18.
Draw 7's and fill the graveyard is not good. The amount of bad things that can happen grow exponentially when giving your opponents more cards and loading the graveyard for them. Mentor of the Meek is not efficient. But in a slower meta he is fine; 4 mana and a High Market with him out is draw 1 per turn.
If you want to argue Bant is faster than Tier 1 combo decks playing UBX prepare to get laughed at. Umm, nowhere did I suggest stax has a bad matchup against UBX combo. Your blanket statement implying that Bant midrange and combo are better than hybrid stax versions of Bant is dead wrong. Whenever you are not faster than opponents sitting across from you, you must have ways to slow them down.
Draw 7's and fill the graveyard is not good. The amount of bad things that can happen grow exponentially when giving your opponents more cards and loading the graveyard for them. Mentor of the Meek is not efficient. But in a slower meta he is fine; 4 mana and a High Market with him out is draw 1 per turn.
If it's a draw 7 and fill the GY then at least one player clearly isn't playing spells, not to mention that it's solid disruption if someone is sculpting their hand. You're doing it either on your turn or at the end step before your turn, so you should be plenty capable of further locking things down. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but it sounds good on paper to me. Moreover, you mention Glix's list and Cobblepott (close enough) seems to have no problem with Archivist.
Mentor is definitely slow, but how often are you tapped out every turn having played all the spells you could? I'm not saying he's perfect, but I think he's decent and worth testing.
If you want to argue Bant is faster than Tier 1 combo decks playing UBX prepare to get laughed at.
I'm not saying that I'm faster - I'm saying that I'm at least as consistent as them, probably even more. A typical UBx combo deck runs only a few real action cards, but has a ton of cantrips, tutors and draw 7s to find them, which is where my ton of disruption steps in. Yes, they can have a god hand and kill the table on turn 1 or 2 (which I obviously can't do), but these hands are few and far between - usually they spend their first several turns on ramping and digging and I have a million ways to throw a wrench in their works.
Your blanket statement implying that Bant midrange and combo are better than hybrid stax versions of Bant is dead wrong.
Not Bant midrange and combo, but midrange and combo in general. I mean, if I wanted to play combo, I would choose a different commander than Derevi in the first place.
I'll echo what previous posters said in this thread: you need more engines.
That one I can actually agree with - while I'm fine with my tutors, I certainly wouldn't mind more draw engines, because running out of gas is a serious issue. The problem is that my draw needs to be effective (I'm definitely not gonna durdle around with super slow things like Masked Admirers) and preferably creature based. I don't see many good options left, but maybe I'm overlooking something.
Elfric, I dunno if I'd consider those engines Like you said, all slow, not abusable, one card per turn. It's interesting, they have printed both artifact and enchantment versions of Coastal Piracy, but we only have the creature version of "Any Creature" on Edric, Spymaster of Trest. If they printed a GU enchantment that said the same thing I could see us running it here, but I digress.
I can't really remember what had been mentioned previously in this post, so please don't shun me if these have already been beaten to death. There's only a few options I could really consider here, other than the aforementioned Mentor or Archivist. Tezzeret, the Seeker - Extra untaps out of pod, and mana pieces, plus tutors for pod or mana. The only `nonbo` is it's another spell that can't be cast under Teeg, and your list runs a few more of those than mine. Rhystic Study - I think I recall you saying that you didn't like this, because you weren't casting this early to prevent your opponents from casting spells, and then you're paying a lot for it after your taxers are up. I can dig it. Still think it's better than most other options available. Mystic Remora - I'm not sold on this, but I recently re-added after hearing NarJED's experience with the card. Definitely worth dumping it T1-T2 if it may net a few cards, then just letting it die. Way up in the air for me though, haven't had a chance to re playtest after more recent renditions of my list. Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - Since he puts the creature on to the battlefield, he evades taxes. Definitely feels stronger than Sisay all times I've used him. He requires mana for activation, so a Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Bloom Tender, or similar are necessary. Getting multiple activations out of him a turn is simply backbreaking. I would strongly consider putting him in.
Elfric, I dunno if I'd consider those engines Like you said, all slow, not abusable, one card per turn.
Also no evasion (at least most of them), so no guarantee that you'll draw even that one card. Yeah, I agree - these are definitely not what I'm looking for.
It's interesting, they have printed both artifact and enchantment versions of Coastal Piracy, but we only have the creature version of "Any Creature" on Edric, Spymaster of Trest.
Edric is miles better here than both Coastal Piracy and Bident of Thassa. As a creature he doesn't fall under half of my taxes, doesn't fall under Gaddock and is tutorable in several different ways. Back in the day I used to run Bident of Thassa, but it was way too clunky and I cut it pretty fast.
Tezzeret, the Seeker - Extra untaps out of pod, and mana pieces, plus tutors for pod or mana. The only `nonbo` is it's another spell that can't be cast under Teeg, and your list runs a few more of those than mine.
I used to run Tezzeret for quite some time, but ultimately I cut him and never looked back. There are several problems with him in my deck:
1) He's a 5 CMC noncreature spell, which means that he usually costs 6-7 mana after taxes - this is A LOT.
2) As you already mentioned, he's uncastable under Gaddock Teeg, which is a huge downside (Teeg is one of my primary tutor targets).
3) Assuming that I'm using his minus ability, he only has like two and a half good targets: Birthing Pod, Winter Orb and in some matchups also Null Rod. Fetching mana rocks or random tax pieces with a 6-7 mana tutor (that also requires double blue) is so ineffective that I'm not even gonna discuss that.
4) Regarding his plus ability, he doesn't have many uses either. I'm running only five mana rocks, so there's a good chance he won't be able to give me any additional mana (not to mention my Stony Silence and Null Rod). As for extra Pod untaps, that's also not very realistic: either I'm fetching Pod with Tezzeret (in which case he's dead and won't untap anything) or I already have Pod running (in which case I can untap Pod multiple times using Derevi, no need to pay 6-7 mana for that).
Don't get me wrong: Tezzeret is a great card and I have seen him doing a lot of work in several different decks. The thing is, my Derevi build isn't a good home for him - too many taxes and artifact disruption, too few artifacts.
Rhystic Study - I think I recall you saying that you didn't like this, because you weren't casting this early to prevent your opponents from casting spells, and then you're paying a lot for it after your taxers are up. I can dig it. Still think it's better than most other options available.
Yeah, Rhystic Study is pretty mediocre, but at least it's not outright bad. If I don't find a better draw engine, I might go back to Rhystic Study one day (although I'd much prefer something else).
Mystic Remora - I'm not sold on this, but I recently re-added after hearing NarJED's experience with the card. Definitely worth dumping it T1-T2 if it may net a few cards, then just letting it die. Way up in the air for me though, haven't had a chance to re playtest after more recent renditions of my list.
Mystic Remora is very meta-dependent. If your playgroup consists mostly of decks like Narset, Zur, Mizzix, Sharuum etc. or even something like Tasigur or Kaalia, then sure - I can see Remora being good there. The problem is that Derevi Prison is inherently good against spellslingers anyway - decks that give me a fit are usually heavy creature builds (Prossh, Zegana etc., even Marath is often annoying) and Mystic Remora doesn't do much against such opponents.
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - Since he puts the creature on to the battlefield, he evades taxes. Definitely feels stronger than Sisay all times I've used him. He requires mana for activation, so a Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Bloom Tender, or similar are necessary. Getting multiple activations out of him a turn is simply backbreaking. I would strongly consider putting him in.
Of all the cards you mentioned, Yisan is the only one I'm seriously considering. I know what this card is capable of (I have a monogreen Yisan deck in my meta and it's pretty scary) and I could definitely abuse him. The only thing that stops me is that he would be quite slow - I don't have any good 1-drops to find (only mana dorks and Judge's Familiar), so it's two turns and six mana until he gives me something that really impacts the board. I could run Quirion Ranger as a go-to 1-drop to speed Yisan up, but that requires another slot to find and I'm not sure if it's worth it.
But yeah, I might try Yisan this week instead of Tamiyo and see how it goes.
I agree with you on most of these. They're all not great cards, but they fit in better than a lot of others. The only thing I have to say, is that you're removing Tamiyo, a source of draw, with some other possibilities, for another engine. The goal is to add more, not to have the same amount. I would consider keeping Tamiyo, and finding another slot to work with in this case, but that's just me.
The only thing I have to say, is that you're removing Tamiyo, a source of draw, with some other possibilities, for another engine. The goal is to add more, not to have the same amount. I would consider keeping Tamiyo, and finding another slot to work with in this case, but that's just me.
In theory you're right, especially because Tamiyo serves a dual purpose, being half a draw engine (her +1) and half a lock piece (her -2). In reality though she's clunky, unreliable and untutorable - I kept her in my deck for over a month and had only one game when she did something useful. I need more reliable cards, that's why I put Yisan in her slot.
By the way, Yisan already did some good work for me, even though I managed to cast him only in one game last Thursday. I need more testing to be sure, but he seems quite promising and there's a good chance that he'll earn a slot.
In other news, I cut Aura Shards for Aura of Silence. Both cards serve a very similar purpose and are mostly interchangeable, the latter being better early and the former being better late. Aura Shards was a bit too slow for my tastes, so I'm trying the replacement - if that doesn't work, I'll swap them back.
Several weeks later I still have no idea what to put in that last slot...
1) I tried Yisan and he's decent, but very mana hungry. Sure, if I have a Cradle or at least Bloom Tender going, he's pretty good, but if I don't, he slows to a glacial pace. Captain Sisay is somewhat similar, but I can find a Cradle with her first activation if need be, whereas Yisan can find me only a mana dork.
2) I tried Smuggler's Copter and I'm still not sure what to make of it. At first I was amazed because he won me his debut game almost singlehandedly - one of my opponents dropped T1 Carpet of Flowers, which I had no answer for, but my T2 Copter churned through my deck, discarding Islands and finding non-Island blue sources. On paper it's very good: it flies, it loots, it makes good use of all tiny ground hatebears (Gaddock, Kataki, Glowrider etc.) and spare manadorks. In reality though it's kinda like Tamiyo: not a creature (so it falls under most of my taxes), doesn't work well with my other disruption (Gaddock in Tamiyo's case, Kataki, Null Rod and Stony Silence in Copter's case) and you never tutor for it (technically I can, but I always have better targets for my Enlightened Tutor), so in most of your games you just don't see it at all.
3) For one week I decided to try something different and I put back Elesh Norn in this slot. My theory was that while it makes my good matchups a bit worse (read: blue and/or black spellslingers with things like Gilded Drake, Bribery, Reanimation, Animate Dead etc.), it makes my bad matchups better (read: creature decks like Prossh, Yisan, Marath or even Zegana), so it's worth a try. Well, my theory lasted about ten seconds: immediately after I cast Elesh Norn for the first time in over a year and passed the turn, Zegana pilot untapped, slammed Gilded Drake on the table and wiped my board. I obviously lost that game and promised myself to never play Elesh Norn in this deck again.
For now I decided to go back to Yisan, but I'm still looking for better options.
Currently I am missing some key cards for this deck, such as thorn of amethyst, linvala Keeper Of Secrets, Noble hierarch and many fetch lands. I've been playing the deck over the last few weeks and it's done really well at my local shop. I have enough money to purchase about $200 in cards, in addition to the cards listed above I don't have any OG duels so my question is should I first purchase more of the tax effect/ramp/mana fixing or perhaps pick up a tropical island. I want to hold off on buying linvala until we see what is in modern masters 2017, as it seems like a prime target for reprint.
Also I've found elesh norn to be very useful in a similar role as consecrated sphinx of getting back into games that seemed like they had completely slipped away, fortunately I have not encountered anyone in my meta playing control magic effects.
Currently I am missing some key cards for this deck, such as thorn of amethyst, linvala Keeper Of Secrets, Noble hierarch and many fetch lands. I've been playing the deck over the last few weeks and it's done really well at my local shop. I have enough money to purchase about $200 in cards, in addition to the cards listed above I don't have any OG duels so my question is should I first purchase more of the tax effect/ramp/mana fixing or perhaps pick up a tropical island.
The least important of those is definitely Noble Hierarch - it's just a mana dork, nice to have him, but not crucial by any means. Thorn and Linvala are much more important (especially the angel, more about her below).
As for mana fixing: this deck is VERY color demanding. In many cases you want to have access to all your colors as early as turn two, turn three at the latest. I don't see how you can do that without fetchlands - you can skip an OG dual or two, but I wouldn't run this deck without at least 6-7 fetches.
BTW: if you want to invest in OG duals, the order of importance goes like this: Tropical Island > Savannah >>> Tundra.
I want to hold off on buying linvala until we see what is in modern masters 2017, as it seems like a prime target for reprint.
Unfortunately Linvala is very important in this deck for two reasons. First off, only three creatures aren't replaceable here with other similar cards - these three being Gaddock Teeg, Linvala and Willbreaker. But the second reason is even more important: Linvala is often a key to win your bad matchups.
Basically your good matchups are various blue-based spellslinger decks and your bad matchups are various green-based creature decks (in reality it's way more complicated than that, but let's keep it simple for the sake of this discussion). Most creature decks (think Yisan, Prossh, Marath, Sisay, Ghave, Selvala, Zegana/Thrasios/UGwhatever etc.) have a hard time beating Linvala, so getting her onboard is often a high priority. If you don't have her in your deck... well, it will be an uphill battle.
Also I've found Elesh Norn to be very useful in a similar role as consecrated sphinx of getting back into games that seemed like they had completely slipped away, fortunately I have not encountered anyone in my meta playing control magic effects.
As I've said many times before in this thread, Elesh Norn is a great card - no denying that. If you don't need to fear her turning against you (via Gilded Drake, Animate Dead or whatever), then sure, you could run her here. I've tried that and it always ended up badly, but it's mostly a meta call.
A couple updates:
1) I removed a basic Island and put Carpet of Flowers in that spot. So far it plays well and looks like this change will stay.
2) The more I play with Yisan, the more I don't like him - unless he's your commander (in which case he's great), he's slow as hell. Due to a recent surge in graveyard-based decks in my meta, I'm currently trying Rest in Peace in this slot.
I have been playing Derevi since its release but I have yet to test a full tax list.
I usually finish games with a lot of flying creatures + true conviction ( high casting cost but double derevi's triggers.) Usually tutored with Academy Rector
I also love abusing the latest combat ruling with reconnaissance. You should definitively give it a try as it allow you to swing with all creatures, remove from combat those you are about to lose, then remove from combat those who dealt damage to your opponent after they dealt their damage.
Then you use your Derevi's triggers to tap opponents land or untap your blue mana source in order to pay for stasis upkeep. One of my favorite card in Derevi.
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Nah, Lodestone Golem isn't really that bad. Sure, it's my worst tax effect, but they add up and he's actually my best beater. If I were to cut disruption, first cards out would be Trygon Predator and Static Orb.
While Deprive is indeed an option to consider, I won't touch Unified Will with a ten foot pole. I hate conditional counters with a fiery passion - they always backfire on me when they're needed the most.
But it's so much worse... The power of Nature's Will lies not only in breaking Stasis - it also allows me to regain control of the board after a wipe, because a single hit with one creature taps down multiple lands. I'd rather play Carpet of Flowers (much more narrow, but much more powerful) than Druids' Repository.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
+ Reveillark, - Rhystic Study
+ Captain Sisay, - Static Orb
My pods were pretty weird this time. My meta is usually heavy blue, but last Thursday the only blue player I faced during the whole evening was Tasigur Reanimator - the rest were various creature decks like Prossh or Yisan. Reveillark turned out to be pretty decent: I've played with him before and cut him, because he wasn't doing enough against heavy blue spellslingers, but against creature decks he's actually OK. He's a bit slow, but attacks in the air and adds some much needed resiliency, especially with Pod online. Besides, Rhystic Study sucked anyway, so Reveillark stays, at least until I find something better or more important.
As for Captain Sisay, I never drew her, so I'll take her for a spin again next week to see if she's worth it.
I also managed to borrow Horizon Canopy, which went in the Sunpetal Grove slot. Just as expected, the Canopy was great and I will swap them permanently as soon as I bite the bullet and buy that overpriced card.
Edit: After a week I finally got to try Captain Sisay and she's awesome. Yes, she needs to survive a turn, but after that she becomes a crazy tutor machine. Farewell, Trygon Predator - you won't be missed.
Two other observations after the last EDH evening:
1) Peacekeeper is incredibly annoying - yet another card I had to add to the Scary section.
2) In two different games I had all my lands wiped out (first time by Ruination, second time by a cycled Decree of Annihilation) and I managed to win both of them, because I needed the least resources to recover. These games got me thinking: maybe playing geddons myself is actually a correct approach? I have to try it sometime in the future.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
In other news, I made two changes to my list, one of which is already permanent - the other one I'm still testing. First off, I finally cut Static Orb. It was the worst of my lock pieces by far: pretty hard to break for me and gave my opponents too much room to breathe. I don't remember the last time I used it offensively - it either rotted in my hand or was cast defensively just to buy me some time. I took a page from Karador's book instead and replaced Static Orb with Spirit of the Labyrinth, which has been fantastic for me. Sure, it's awkward with my Edric, Spymaster of Trest or Consecrated Sphinx, but this deck is full of nonbos already and Spirit of the Labyrinth is way more annoying for my opponents than for me. Watching blue combo players twiddle their thumbs over their Brainstorms, Ponders, Impulses, Mulldrifters, Time Spirals, Windfalls, Wheel of Fortunes, Timetwisters, not being able to abuse Prime Speaker Zegana, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Memory Jar etc. is a true joy to behold, let me tell you.
I'm also trying Fiend Hunter as per Donald's suggestion, but it's too early to decide if it's good enough to warrant a spot - we'll see.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I thought about it and it's definitely on my watchlist, but for now it stays on the sidelines. The main reason is that my deck is at its best when I dump my hand on the table very early and Eidolon of Rhetoric doesn't exactly help with that. I'll try it out some day though, that's for sure.
Squeeze is an incredibly narrow card. It's affected by almost all my taxes (except for GAAIV), so it would cost like 5 or 6 mana in most cases, and on top of that it can't be cast under Gaddock Teeg, which is one of my most frequent tutor targets.
I know, but that's even more narrow than Squeeze. The scariest lands I could face across the table are The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers and Mishra's Workshop - unfortunately Tsabo's Web doesn't deal with any of these.
That might be actually a pretty good idea... I'll think about it, but it seems quite promising.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Fortunately Humility doesn't really exist anymore in my meta. As for Cyclonic Rift, I have no idea what you're talking about since neither Squeeze nor Gaddock Teeg do anything against it...
Why would I prefer Teeg over Squeeze though? Well, there are several decks in my meta that either literally can't win with the mighty Kithkin on the table (i.e. Narset or blue Kami) or are severely crippled by his existence (i.e. Mizzix or monored/monoblue artifact decks). Teeg protects me from all the timewalks, extra combats and expensive walkers, most of the sweepers, various key cards in Storm-type decks and other spellslingers (like Ad Nauseam, Mizzix's Mastery, Mind's Desire, Time Spiral, Past in Flames, Turnabout etc.), various free or semifree cards attempting to bypass my taxes (Force of Will, Dig Through Time, Snuff Out, Gush etc.), various big mana enablers in artifact decks (Thran Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, Gauntlet of Might, Gauntlet of Power etc.) and many of their payoff cards (like Mindslaver, Smokestack, Mycosynth Lattice, Possessed Portal, Spine of Ish Sah and so on). Even against creature combo decks, where Gaddock Teeg is at his worst, he still randomly stops things like Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling or Summoning Trap.
Two things that tend to crush me the most are (1) playing archenemy from turn one and (2) running out of gas in the late game.
Most of the cards you listed either don't exist in my meta (i.e. Austere Command or Perish) or are usually being cast before Squeeze gets online (i.e. Ponder or Three Visits), which leaves basically Demonic Tutor and Toxic Deluge (and by the way, Teeg is way better than Squeeze against Wrath of God or Austere Command). Yes, Toxic Deluge is very annoying, but I don't think it's enough to justify playing Squeeze.
Oh, I do realize that - I'm playing several cards like that myself (Root Maze, Willbreaker or Nature's Will). I'm taking every piece of advice very seriously, but Gaddock Teeg is such a crucial card for my deck that every card he stops from hitting the board has to go under heavy scrutiny to warrant a slot.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I'd like to quickly chip in that Eidolon of Rhetoric isn't necessarily a nonbo with you barfing your hand. You can just play him as the last spell in a thick chain of low CMC thunder. It works wonders in my Daxos the Returned, which is the mellow hippy cousin of your list However, that list has a mana sink on tap, which makes the effect a bit ridiculous.
To be honest, I'm in two minds about her. Creatures entering tapped is kind of meh (unless there's something like Earthcraft or Chord of Calling involved), so she would be played mostly for nonbasic land hate. That seems good enough, but the more colors my opponents play, the better she'll be, and we have several different monocolored decks in our meta (your Sheoldred among them).
Obviously I'll be testing the new Thalia as soon as Eldritch Moon arrives, but I was more excited after seeing Vryn Wingmare spoiled than after seeing her.
Yeah, but the later I play him, the more time I give to my opponents, and they can have explosive openings as well. I'll try him out at some point, but for now I'm testing Fiend Hunter and there's new Thalia coming as well, so Eidolon has to wait.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I don't have a Maelstrom Wanderer deck in my meta anymore (I used to have one, but the guy piloting it took it apart), so that's out. I admit that Eidolon of Rhetoric would be very painful to several decks in my meta (like Mizzix, Zur, Narset or even something like Ezuri), but unfortunately it would be pretty painful to me as well. I run a lot of different symmetrical stax effects, but I'm able to overcome most of them - this one hurts me just as much as anyone else and I can't do much about it.
A very common line with Derevi goes like this: play something like Sakashima, Nature's Will or some tax effects in the first main, swing with the team, tap your opponents down and drop an orb or Stasis in the second main - with Eidolon out it's not possible. And let's not forget that he also prevents me from dumping my hand at once (either in the early game or after Edric/Sphinx/Library) and makes my countermagic much worse. All in all, I'm not sure if he belongs here - I'll try him out at some point, but Thalia, Heretic Cathar is first in line.
I don't like Brago, to be honest. He costs four mana, you need to untap with him to do anything (there's only one card like that in my deck - Captain Sisay, which is way better) and even then you need either a lot of artifact mana or a lot of ETB creatures. This is Stony Silence/Null Rod/Hushwing Gryff deck, mind you, and I currently don't have many targets to blink with Brago - it would require a serious rebuilding to run him here.
Edit: Yesterday I had one of the craziest openings this deck can have: turn 1 Birthing Pod, turn 2 Consecrated Sphinx, turn 3 Derevi -> sac for Sakashima -> in response Derevi again -> swing with the Sphinx -> Stasis. Winning on turn three with a non-combo deck feels pretty good.
In unrelated news, I took a new Thalia for a spin and unfortunately the results aren't promising so far (Root Maze is so much better...). I'll try her again next week though, maybe she'll prove her worth.
(on the other hand, Tamiyo, Field Researcher seems tempting as well...)
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Legacy: Grixis Delver
EDH: Derevi Stax
Pauper: Goblins
It's doing great - it's by far the most powerful deck I've ever put together and ruining other people's gameplans is a lot of fun. I don't see myself abandoning it as long as Derevi is legal in this format.
Regarding Recruiter of the Guard and Sanctum Prelate: I'm not interested in either of them. Recruiter is too slow for me - I want my tutors to be either fast or repeatable and Recruiter is neither. I could see him being good in various different decks (especially with Food Chain or Skullclamp), but not here.
As for Sanctum Prelate, I'm not sure if this card is even playable in EDH at all, not to mention in this deck... In multiplayer it's way too narrow, there is no good number you can set her on.
There are two problems with planeswalkers in this deck - be it Tezzeret (which I've tried in the past), Tamiyo, JTMS or whatever:
1) They are noncreature spells with CMC 4+, which means that they are affected with almost all my taxes (except GAAIV) and most importantly, they are uncastable under Gaddock Teeg. Paying about six mana for a walker because I happen to have some taxes on the table isn't very exciting, and having it stuck in my hand because there's a kithkin on the table is even worse.
2) They are non-tutorable, which means that they rarely show up. I've been testing Tamiyo for like a month or so and I'm still not sure if she's worth it, because in most of my games I simply don't have access to her. So far I drew her only in two games - in one of them I was dead next turn anyway, and in the other one I was already winning even without her.
(BTW: even if Tamiyo turns out lacking, she's still way better than JTMS here. I'm not playing durdly control, I'm trying to lock my opponents down as soon as possible.)
I have one slot I'm still thinking about. At first it was Crop Rotation, which was decent, but had only two worthy targets, which irked me to no end. After that it was Fiend Hunter - again, pretty decent, but nothing spectacular. Then I tried Thalia, Heretic Cathar, which was unfortunately disappointing (too narrow, doesn't do anything against half of my meta and against the other half it's acceptable only if dropped very early). Now I'm trying Tamiyo, Field Researcher - if she fails as well, I'll probably go back to Fiend Hunter, but I'm still looking for better options.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Within competitive metas, the main problem Bant has is surviving into the midgame. Bant wincons are all fairly slow. If you play Bant you will never see T1 or T2 wins. So if you sit across from fast combo, or UBX combo control, you need some way, somehow to slow them down. And the best way to do that is to use taxers. It doesn't matter if you play Bant combo or midrange, you need stax elements because you will never be faster or more efficient than dedicated combodecks playing UB. So if you want to win, the only question is whether or not you want to play full stax or a hybrid stax strategy. Removal and answer heavy metas (like mine) are terrible for aggressive stax strategies. Your pieces don't stick and you hit top-deck mode very early. Then your poor card quality comes into play and you just can't get back into the game. Therefore, in my experience, a hyrbid stax midrange strategy is the optimal approach for Bant (in my meta); I just call it tempo. I was able to take games at an average clip despite being public enemy #1, usually on the back of Survival of the Fittest with Masked Admirers + PoK. So I would have to disagree with your analysis
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Ultimately, I frequently found myself moving close to topdeck mode after dumping my hand in the first few turns of the game. At this point I usually have plenty of mana, with little to do, and so I began testing Mentor of the Meek. I have truly been pleasantly surprised (in the two games I've drawn into, or had in opening hands). Being able to replace the Llanowar Elves you draw mid game is a beautiful thing. Perhaps I don't pilot the deck correctly, or I just need to mulligan better. But it may be worth throwing on your short list of things to try.
Jace's Archivist still stands out as a card that's been sitting in the deck for weeks, that I have not yet cast or tutored. Though I'm interested to see how he works.
That's only partially true. Example: last Thursday I had a game when I kept a hand of two fetches, ESG, Enlightened Tutor, GAAIV, Cpt. Sisay and Root Maze, my first draw being Avacyn's Pilgrim. Technically speaking, my opponents conceded on turn five or so, but in reality I had already won on turn two, when I had GAAIV with Root Maze on board and they had their hands full of fetchlands and no immediate answer. In similar venue, about a month ago I had a game with turn 1 Pod, turn 2 Sphinx, turn 3 Sakashima+Stasis lock. Yes, hands like that don't happen often, but they do happen once in a while.
I'm not sure if I can agree with that - in my experience dedicated UBx cantrip-based combo decks have a very hard time beating full stax Derevi. I've played against Jeleva Storm, LabMan Zur, Tasigur Reanimator etc. many times and while Tasigur managed to steal some games once in a while, I have yet to lose to any Ad Nauseam deck. Going full stax means that a quarter of my deck is disruption and unless they have a god hand that wins on turn 1 or 2, they will fight an uphill battle.
My deck has some weak spots and bad matchups, sure, but I don't see UB(x) full combo as one of them - quite the opposite.
Removal and answers tend to be spell-based (instant and sorceries mostly), which I don't have much trouble fighting. Come to think of it, the most troublesome opponents for my Derevi are probably versatile green-based hybrid decks with diversified manabases that can switch roles between aggro and combo or combo and control on the fly (think Prossh, Zegana and the like).
I'm starting to think that the most important thing here is the "in my meta" part. Some things work better in one metagame, some other work better elsewhere. For example, if my meta wasn't infested with Gilded Drakes, Briberies, Reanimates, Animate Deads etc., I would probably cut three cards for the Survival-Retainers-Elesh Norn package, but as it stands, I can't really do it. Maybe in your meta the hybrid approach works better, I don't know - but in mine the full stax works wonders.
Your first priorities should be Linvala plus one of Null Rod/Stony Silence package - they are really crucial in many matchups and I tutor for them pretty frequently. The least important is probably Sphere of Resistance - it's just another lock piece for redundancy purposes, nothing special.
While I didn't try any of these two, Jace's Archivist looks much more promising to me than Mentor of the Meek. Mentor is very mana hungry and doesn't help much when in topdeck mode - I don't think I can afford playing the inferior white draw when I have an access to much more efficient blue or even green ones.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I'll echo what previous posters said in this thread: you need more engines. Your approach is too fragile without them. If your first few pieces don't stick your game is over. You run half as many tutors/engine pieces/draw as my Derevi, Glix's version runs 18.
Draw 7's and fill the graveyard is not good. The amount of bad things that can happen grow exponentially when giving your opponents more cards and loading the graveyard for them. Mentor of the Meek is not efficient. But in a slower meta he is fine; 4 mana and a High Market with him out is draw 1 per turn.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Swift, you sound so defensive!
If it's a draw 7 and fill the GY then at least one player clearly isn't playing spells, not to mention that it's solid disruption if someone is sculpting their hand. You're doing it either on your turn or at the end step before your turn, so you should be plenty capable of further locking things down. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but it sounds good on paper to me. Moreover, you mention Glix's list and Cobblepott (close enough) seems to have no problem with Archivist.
Mentor is definitely slow, but how often are you tapped out every turn having played all the spells you could? I'm not saying he's perfect, but I think he's decent and worth testing.
I'm not saying that I'm faster - I'm saying that I'm at least as consistent as them, probably even more. A typical UBx combo deck runs only a few real action cards, but has a ton of cantrips, tutors and draw 7s to find them, which is where my ton of disruption steps in. Yes, they can have a god hand and kill the table on turn 1 or 2 (which I obviously can't do), but these hands are few and far between - usually they spend their first several turns on ramping and digging and I have a million ways to throw a wrench in their works.
Not Bant midrange and combo, but midrange and combo in general. I mean, if I wanted to play combo, I would choose a different commander than Derevi in the first place.
Sure - that's why I'm running more disruption pieces than you.
That one I can actually agree with - while I'm fine with my tutors, I certainly wouldn't mind more draw engines, because running out of gas is a serious issue. The problem is that my draw needs to be effective (I'm definitely not gonna durdle around with super slow things like Masked Admirers) and preferably creature based. I don't see many good options left, but maybe I'm overlooking something.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I can't really remember what had been mentioned previously in this post, so please don't shun me if these have already been beaten to death. There's only a few options I could really consider here, other than the aforementioned Mentor or Archivist.
Tezzeret, the Seeker - Extra untaps out of pod, and mana pieces, plus tutors for pod or mana. The only `nonbo` is it's another spell that can't be cast under Teeg, and your list runs a few more of those than mine.
Rhystic Study - I think I recall you saying that you didn't like this, because you weren't casting this early to prevent your opponents from casting spells, and then you're paying a lot for it after your taxers are up. I can dig it. Still think it's better than most other options available.
Mystic Remora - I'm not sold on this, but I recently re-added after hearing NarJED's experience with the card. Definitely worth dumping it T1-T2 if it may net a few cards, then just letting it die. Way up in the air for me though, haven't had a chance to re playtest after more recent renditions of my list.
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - Since he puts the creature on to the battlefield, he evades taxes. Definitely feels stronger than Sisay all times I've used him. He requires mana for activation, so a Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Bloom Tender, or similar are necessary. Getting multiple activations out of him a turn is simply backbreaking. I would strongly consider putting him in.
Also no evasion (at least most of them), so no guarantee that you'll draw even that one card. Yeah, I agree - these are definitely not what I'm looking for.
Edric is miles better here than both Coastal Piracy and Bident of Thassa. As a creature he doesn't fall under half of my taxes, doesn't fall under Gaddock and is tutorable in several different ways. Back in the day I used to run Bident of Thassa, but it was way too clunky and I cut it pretty fast.
I used to run Tezzeret for quite some time, but ultimately I cut him and never looked back. There are several problems with him in my deck:
1) He's a 5 CMC noncreature spell, which means that he usually costs 6-7 mana after taxes - this is A LOT.
2) As you already mentioned, he's uncastable under Gaddock Teeg, which is a huge downside (Teeg is one of my primary tutor targets).
3) Assuming that I'm using his minus ability, he only has like two and a half good targets: Birthing Pod, Winter Orb and in some matchups also Null Rod. Fetching mana rocks or random tax pieces with a 6-7 mana tutor (that also requires double blue) is so ineffective that I'm not even gonna discuss that.
4) Regarding his plus ability, he doesn't have many uses either. I'm running only five mana rocks, so there's a good chance he won't be able to give me any additional mana (not to mention my Stony Silence and Null Rod). As for extra Pod untaps, that's also not very realistic: either I'm fetching Pod with Tezzeret (in which case he's dead and won't untap anything) or I already have Pod running (in which case I can untap Pod multiple times using Derevi, no need to pay 6-7 mana for that).
Don't get me wrong: Tezzeret is a great card and I have seen him doing a lot of work in several different decks. The thing is, my Derevi build isn't a good home for him - too many taxes and artifact disruption, too few artifacts.
Yeah, Rhystic Study is pretty mediocre, but at least it's not outright bad. If I don't find a better draw engine, I might go back to Rhystic Study one day (although I'd much prefer something else).
Mystic Remora is very meta-dependent. If your playgroup consists mostly of decks like Narset, Zur, Mizzix, Sharuum etc. or even something like Tasigur or Kaalia, then sure - I can see Remora being good there. The problem is that Derevi Prison is inherently good against spellslingers anyway - decks that give me a fit are usually heavy creature builds (Prossh, Zegana etc., even Marath is often annoying) and Mystic Remora doesn't do much against such opponents.
Of all the cards you mentioned, Yisan is the only one I'm seriously considering. I know what this card is capable of (I have a monogreen Yisan deck in my meta and it's pretty scary) and I could definitely abuse him. The only thing that stops me is that he would be quite slow - I don't have any good 1-drops to find (only mana dorks and Judge's Familiar), so it's two turns and six mana until he gives me something that really impacts the board. I could run Quirion Ranger as a go-to 1-drop to speed Yisan up, but that requires another slot to find and I'm not sure if it's worth it.
But yeah, I might try Yisan this week instead of Tamiyo and see how it goes.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
In theory you're right, especially because Tamiyo serves a dual purpose, being half a draw engine (her +1) and half a lock piece (her -2). In reality though she's clunky, unreliable and untutorable - I kept her in my deck for over a month and had only one game when she did something useful. I need more reliable cards, that's why I put Yisan in her slot.
By the way, Yisan already did some good work for me, even though I managed to cast him only in one game last Thursday. I need more testing to be sure, but he seems quite promising and there's a good chance that he'll earn a slot.
In other news, I cut Aura Shards for Aura of Silence. Both cards serve a very similar purpose and are mostly interchangeable, the latter being better early and the former being better late. Aura Shards was a bit too slow for my tastes, so I'm trying the replacement - if that doesn't work, I'll swap them back.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
1) I tried Yisan and he's decent, but very mana hungry. Sure, if I have a Cradle or at least Bloom Tender going, he's pretty good, but if I don't, he slows to a glacial pace. Captain Sisay is somewhat similar, but I can find a Cradle with her first activation if need be, whereas Yisan can find me only a mana dork.
2) I tried Smuggler's Copter and I'm still not sure what to make of it. At first I was amazed because he won me his debut game almost singlehandedly - one of my opponents dropped T1 Carpet of Flowers, which I had no answer for, but my T2 Copter churned through my deck, discarding Islands and finding non-Island blue sources. On paper it's very good: it flies, it loots, it makes good use of all tiny ground hatebears (Gaddock, Kataki, Glowrider etc.) and spare manadorks. In reality though it's kinda like Tamiyo: not a creature (so it falls under most of my taxes), doesn't work well with my other disruption (Gaddock in Tamiyo's case, Kataki, Null Rod and Stony Silence in Copter's case) and you never tutor for it (technically I can, but I always have better targets for my Enlightened Tutor), so in most of your games you just don't see it at all.
3) For one week I decided to try something different and I put back Elesh Norn in this slot. My theory was that while it makes my good matchups a bit worse (read: blue and/or black spellslingers with things like Gilded Drake, Bribery, Reanimation, Animate Dead etc.), it makes my bad matchups better (read: creature decks like Prossh, Yisan, Marath or even Zegana), so it's worth a try. Well, my theory lasted about ten seconds: immediately after I cast Elesh Norn for the first time in over a year and passed the turn, Zegana pilot untapped, slammed Gilded Drake on the table and wiped my board. I obviously lost that game and promised myself to never play Elesh Norn in this deck again.
For now I decided to go back to Yisan, but I'm still looking for better options.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
Also I've found elesh norn to be very useful in a similar role as consecrated sphinx of getting back into games that seemed like they had completely slipped away, fortunately I have not encountered anyone in my meta playing control magic effects.
The least important of those is definitely Noble Hierarch - it's just a mana dork, nice to have him, but not crucial by any means. Thorn and Linvala are much more important (especially the angel, more about her below).
As for mana fixing: this deck is VERY color demanding. In many cases you want to have access to all your colors as early as turn two, turn three at the latest. I don't see how you can do that without fetchlands - you can skip an OG dual or two, but I wouldn't run this deck without at least 6-7 fetches.
BTW: if you want to invest in OG duals, the order of importance goes like this: Tropical Island > Savannah >>> Tundra.
Unfortunately Linvala is very important in this deck for two reasons. First off, only three creatures aren't replaceable here with other similar cards - these three being Gaddock Teeg, Linvala and Willbreaker. But the second reason is even more important: Linvala is often a key to win your bad matchups.
Basically your good matchups are various blue-based spellslinger decks and your bad matchups are various green-based creature decks (in reality it's way more complicated than that, but let's keep it simple for the sake of this discussion). Most creature decks (think Yisan, Prossh, Marath, Sisay, Ghave, Selvala, Zegana/Thrasios/UGwhatever etc.) have a hard time beating Linvala, so getting her onboard is often a high priority. If you don't have her in your deck... well, it will be an uphill battle.
As I've said many times before in this thread, Elesh Norn is a great card - no denying that. If you don't need to fear her turning against you (via Gilded Drake, Animate Dead or whatever), then sure, you could run her here. I've tried that and it always ended up badly, but it's mostly a meta call.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
1) I removed a basic Island and put Carpet of Flowers in that spot. So far it plays well and looks like this change will stay.
2) The more I play with Yisan, the more I don't like him - unless he's your commander (in which case he's great), he's slow as hell. Due to a recent surge in graveyard-based decks in my meta, I'm currently trying Rest in Peace in this slot.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I usually finish games with a lot of flying creatures + true conviction ( high casting cost but double derevi's triggers.) Usually tutored with Academy Rector
I also love abusing the latest combat ruling with reconnaissance. You should definitively give it a try as it allow you to swing with all creatures, remove from combat those you are about to lose, then remove from combat those who dealt damage to your opponent after they dealt their damage.
Then you use your Derevi's triggers to tap opponents land or untap your blue mana source in order to pay for stasis upkeep. One of my favorite card in Derevi.