Tamiyo is good, but slow. Tomorrow would help a lot in the first few spells after casting Arjun, when my hand is still only 2-3 cards.
My list has zero max hand size effects like Reliquary Tower, so Kozilek can act as an uncounterable (or less easily countered) Elixir which occasionally I can cast as well. I mean, I have hardcast Omniscience before
I don't actually have enough Wizards to make Azami work effectively, and Azami dies to most of my sweepers. Sower also got changed for a cheaper, better non-Wizard version. Swerve is a better "counterspell" than Dualcaster Mage while giving up some utility to copy powerful spells. Since I run counters mainly for protection, I think I'll try out Swerve instead.
I'd be wary with Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar. It is a mandatory effect on each go, and replaces any and all draw effects (making Chasm Skulker, Jace's Erasure, Sphinx's Tutelage, et al. fairly irrelevant). I learned this the hard way. If anything, I might consider Archmage Ascension over Tomorrow, at least if you are looking more for a draw-refining mechanic than another creature. If you're looking for another creature instead, I'd reconsider the Magus of the Future cut.
I'd be wary with Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar. It is a mandatory effect on each go, and replaces any and all draw effects (making Chasm Skulker, Jace's Erasure, Sphinx's Tutelage, et al. fairly irrelevant). I learned this the hard way. If anything, I might consider Archmage Ascension over Tomorrow, at least if you are looking more for a draw-refining mechanic than another creature. If you're looking for another creature instead, I'd reconsider the Magus of the Future cut.
~Lil Kalki
Worse than that, it negates Alhammaret's Archive and Thought Reflection, which I consider pretty essential to keeping a full grip with Arjun. However, more often that not I reach Arjun with a hand size of 3-4, which makes Tommorrow more useful to dig 9-12 cards down rather than 3-4. So far I've been more happy than frustrated to see it in hand... Worst come to worst, Venser, Shaper Savant can bounce it.
Of course, Tomorrow is less useful if my starting hand with Arjun out is larger (6-7 cards) or I already have a draw doubler out. I think some of the difference comes from your build being more "chaos" and running Wheel of Fortune-type effects, while I tend to stay away from these effects because personally I hate giving the opponent extra cards. I'm exploring whether adding more wheels helps, though, as they mostly cost 2-4 mana and fill a hole in my "hand fattening" segment where everything is either super cheap (e.g. Brainstorm, Ponder) or expensive (Consecrated Sphinx, Stroke of Genius). With more wheels, probably Tomorrow would be phased out.
Edit: hmmm, actually your build only has Jace's Archivist/Windfall to wheel. But it's still a direction I'm considering (:
Well, I definitely endorse Windfall if you aren't running it. If you'd prefer to have a creature (as well as a recurring - and optional - effect), Jace's Archivist is a good option too to that extent.
Heck, I think that Sphinx's Tutelage would do better in the slot considering the level of draw you have available with Arjun. And again, I wouldn't discount that while Archmage Ascension takes some time to pull off, it's an optional replacement effect and you're gearing for multiplayer anyway (otherwise the deck thread would be in a different board)
This is incorrect. And since I'm procrastinating, I'll explain it in the longest possible way.
Both Archive/Reflection are replacement effects, so it's Rule 616. Interaction of Replacement and/or Prevention Effects in the comprehensive rules.
If two or more effects try to replace something, the affected player chooses one to apply, following an ordered checklist.
If the effect is self replacing, it must be chosen first,
otherwise if the effect modifies whose control a permanent enters the battlefield under, it must be chosen,
otherwise if the effect makes an object become a copy of another as it enters the battlefield, it must be chosen,
otherwise you can pick how they apply.
So none of those draw replacements are any of the specific things above, meaning you get to pick what replacement effect applies, and then you continue replacing until no more effects apply. If you pick Tomorrow to apply first, you replace the draw with digging through the top 3 and that's the end of it. If you choose the Archive/Reflection, you draw 2 instead, but you're still drawing cards, so Tomorrow applies on top making you dig through the top 3 twice instead.
All the triggered abilities are actually ruined though since they're triggered abilities instead of replacement effects, and triggers don't trigger off of things that are replaced.
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So dust bunny after testing what have you come up with as your card list of the arjun EDH deck. I am curious to see, as arjun is super fun, but difficult to pull off in multiplayer.
Congrats! (: I will be making some changes to add in Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, Jace's Archivist whatnot (though possibly not Reforge the Soul, as I don't have a reliable way to miracle it - no SDT) and see how this new direction goes...
All the triggered abilities are actually ruined though since they're triggered abilities instead of replacement effects, and triggers don't trigger off of things that are replaced.
Thanks for clearing that up, haha. Since we're on rules questions, does Psychosis Crawler actually work with Arjun? Isn't there a time between putting your cards on the bottom of the library and drawing that you actually have zero cards in hand, which would kill the Crawler immediately as it becomes a 0/0?
Thanks for clearing that up, haha. Since we're on rules questions, does Psychosis Crawler actually work with Arjun? Isn't there a time between putting your cards on the bottom of the library and drawing that you actually have zero cards in hand, which would kill the Crawler immediately as it becomes a 0/0?
Creatures die for having zero toughness (or for having more damage on them than their toughness) as a state based action, so Psychosis Crawler dies if it has zero toughness when states are checked. States are checked whenever any player gains priority, so as long as nobody gains priority, Psychosis Crawler won't die. And priority doesn't pass during the resolution of a spell or ability, so there's no opportunity for it to die during Arjun's ability. And as the most convenient thing ever, the rulebook example on states not being checked during resolution is almost this exact situation:
A player controls a creature with the ability “This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your hand” and casts a spell whose effect is “Discard your hand, then draw seven cards.” The creature will temporarily have toughness 0 in the middle of the spell’s resolution but will be back up to toughness 7 when the spell finishes resolving. Thus the creature will survive when state-based actions are checked.
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Creatures die for having zero toughness (or for having more damage on them than their toughness) as a state based action, so Psychosis Crawler dies if it has zero toughness when states are checked. States are checked whenever any player gains priority, so as long as nobody gains priority, Psychosis Crawler won't die. And priority doesn't pass during the resolution of a spell or ability, so there's no opportunity for it to die during Arjun's ability.
Awesome, thanks! One more card to add (:
3/12/15: Temporarily trying some more wheel effects:
Have decided to keep the wheel effects, because all that draw (even if the opponent gets some) synergises well with my on draw effects. Psychosis Crawler is a cheaper, less mana intensive version of Niv-Mizzet which gives up the ability to act as a source of card draw. Cheaper is good as most of my deck is high CMC, and I think I already have enough draw.
A lot of decks depend on ETB effects, so I'd rather get rid of stuff permanently (and not have to worry about recursion). Hence Curse of the Swine.
If you're running wheels, use Library of Leng to discard your hand, or just any choice cards you want to redraw, to the top of your library instead of the graveyard.
If you're running wheels, use Library of Leng to discard your hand, or just any choice cards you want to redraw, to the top of your library instead of the graveyard.
It has a no max hand size ability, though. I suppose you could just bounce or destroy it and discard down, then get your graveyard back.
Library of Leng works just fine with Wheel effects, but it doesn't work with any of those other cards. In every one of them, the discard is a cost, and Library of Leng only replaces discards due to effects, not costs.
"10/4/2004 You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects."
Honestly, this is a thing that's always baffled me. It's probably for the best since if it worked with costs, it would help make a bunch more things go infinite, but it has to be complete chance that they formatted it that way in the first place. Library of Leng is from Alpha, there's no way they foresaw problems with things like Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell when they were designing Alpha, and there wasn't a single card that used discarding as a cost in Alpha /Beta/Unlimited.
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I've been playing Arjun since his release and love him, here are some of my notes as related to your list:
I have found redundancy to be key to Arjun. Just as you play Archive AND Thought Reflection, Orrery AND Leyline, I highly recommend Psychosis Crawler AND Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet should not be underestimated as a monster control card, taking out problem creatures left and right. Also, I run Mindmoil so my deck can still do it's thing even if the board has become adverse to creatures (like if there is a Lethal Vapors or Attrition out.
Boardwipes which are instant and don't kill Arjun are really solid. I'm referring to Fault Line and Magmaquake (in addition to the Cyclonic Rift and Starstorm you are already running.) I have considered Earthquake and Molten Disaster, but being sorceries limits them a bit in my mind.
I love Torpor Orb for this deck. Some decks roll over and die to Torpor Orb and my decklist only runs Snapcaster Mage as a card that would be affected. My league plays with point incentives that discourage infinite combos, so I tend not to play Deadeye Navigator / Peregrine Drake / Palinchron effects, so Orb doesn't hurt me there. Similarly, I play Grafdigger's Cage as another silver bullet against reanimator decks.
Also, Seize the Day has won me so many games, targeting my big Psychosis Crawler, Chasm Skulker, or Diviner's Wanded Arjun.
Finally, I play all three available bouncelands, Izzet Boilerworks, Dormant Volcano, and Coral Atoll. They allow me to make land drops while still maintaining a big full hand for Arjun. Plus they work wonders with cards like Time Spiral, Treachery, or Rewind.
Host of "Do I Still Love It?" - The Nostalgia Podcast where comedians re-watch the films they remember loving as children to see if they still love them now that they're grown up.
Commander Decks: WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU GFreyalise and the ElvesG GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
I don't know if it's the best idea for you, DBE, but I just removed my ETB effect creatures and added in a Torpor Orb and other goodies. Presently, for me it's looking like this:
-Wild Evocation (This has failed me twice, so no more)
-Archaeomancer (I think that with only 10 targets for this card a Torpor Orb[/card] is a better option than this by far)
-Crazed Firecat (As I drift farther from a coin flip build I suppose? I may not do that in the end, but the Firecat isn't that reliable without Krark's Thumb out)
-Mountain
+Call the Skybreaker (The best creature in U/R that isn't a creature at all! :D)
+Psychic Spiral (Recursion AND mill? Count me in!)
+Torpor Orb (No more ETB effects in the deck so I have nothing to lose here)
+Temple of the False God (Fixes my ratios and is very helpful in casting larger spells)
"10/4/2004 You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects."
Honestly, this is a thing that's always baffled me. It's probably for the best since if it worked with costs, it would help make a bunch more things go infinite, but it has to be complete chance that they formatted it that way in the first place. Library of Leng is from Alpha, there's no way they foresaw problems with things like Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell when they were designing Alpha, and there wasn't a single card that used discarding as a cost in Alpha /Beta/Unlimited.
I think the assumption is that Library of Leng was designed to soften the blow of Mind Twist and Hypnotic Specter. That and the degeneracy you mention are probably responsible for its Oracle wording. Also, the word "causes" is telling. When you activate Mind Over Matter the cause of the discard is your intention to (most likely) untap something. When you're hit by Hymn to Tourach the spell's effect is what causes you to discard.
Sakashima is a solid enough idea. Already a solid critter, being able to copy opposing Solemn Simulacrum or Oracle of Mul Daya or whatever really. Will Test tonight.
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Commander Decks: WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU GFreyalise and the ElvesG GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
I've been playing Arjun since his release and love him, here are some of my notes as related to your list:
I have found redundancy to be key to Arjun. Just as you play Archive AND Thought Reflection, Orrery AND Leyline, I highly recommend Psychosis Crawler AND Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet should not be underestimated as a monster control card, taking out problem creatures left and right. Also, I run Mindmoil so my deck can still do it's thing even if the board has become adverse to creatures (like if there is a Lethal Vapors or Attrition out.
Boardwipes which are instant and don't kill Arjun are really solid. I'm referring to Fault Line and Magmaquake (in addition to the Cyclonic Rift and Starstorm you are already running.) I have considered Earthquake and Molten Disaster, but being sorceries limits them a bit in my mind.
I love Torpor Orb for this deck. Some decks roll over and die to Torpor Orb and my decklist only runs Snapcaster Mage as a card that would be affected. My league plays with point incentives that discourage infinite combos, so I tend not to play Deadeye Navigator / Peregrine Drake / Palinchron effects, so Orb doesn't hurt me there. Similarly, I play Grafdigger's Cage as another silver bullet against reanimator decks.
Also, Seize the Day has won me so many games, targeting my big Psychosis Crawler, Chasm Skulker, or Diviner's Wanded Arjun.
Finally, I play all three available bouncelands, Izzet Boilerworks, Dormant Volcano, and Coral Atoll. They allow me to make land drops while still maintaining a big full hand for Arjun. Plus they work wonders with cards like Time Spiral, Treachery, or Rewind.
Thanks! I forgot that Niv-Mizzet can hit creatures as well as players, so he can pull double duty as a sweeper. Will find space for him!
I suppose I can get rid of the protection for Arjun (Lightning Greaves, Deadeye Navigator) and add in the duplicate arjuns such as Mindmoil and Teferi's Puzzle Box. The draw effects stack, and Arjun gets expensive rather quickly.
Thanks for bringing up Day's Undoing, I find that the draw 7s like that and Wheel of Fortune are more reliable than Windfall and Jace's Archivist which depend on the opponent actually having cards.
I don't like getting 2-for-1ed with Strip Mine/Acidic Slime which tend to be very common on MTGO, so I won't go all in on the bouncelands. But I suppose I can try out Boilerworks as a start?
I don't know if it's the best idea for you, DBE, but I just removed my ETB effect creatures and added in a Torpor Orb and other goodies.
And here's what it looks like now:
~Lil Kalki
I think there is something wrong with your deck link, there is empty space between the URL tags so nothing I can click on Yup, I shall try out Torpor Orb. After taking out Palinchron a while back I don't use ETB so much anymore, and I already have a Barrin, Master Wizard deck that is all about the ETB. WOuld like to play differently (:
Fair, you do open yourself up to 2-for-1 from land destruction effects but I find usually a more powerful land, like a Cabal Coffers or an Academy Ruins or Nykthos is out that draws the hate first. But you're right, it's a risk.
I run Darksteel Plate for Arjun, as well as the new Command Beacon for when he gets really expensive. I also have Winding Canyons so that I can flash him in from time to time to avoid kill, and have a few decent bounce spells to rescue him (his mindmoil will happen first, then he gets returned to your new hand.)
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Commander Decks: WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU GFreyalise and the ElvesG GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
Mostly changes for Torpor Orb, replacing Windfall effects with guaranteed draw 7s, and removing random goodstuff for more focused stuff (also, less protection since I have added 2 ways to duplicate Arjun's effect). Steel Hellkite: Running a but light on creatures, and it's also a pretty good sweeper. Plus, I need more ways to hit problem non-creature permanents and this helps. Confiscate (for Gilded Drake): same as above (to help with enchants/artifacts/PWs), and to minimise ETBs. Everflowing Chalice: a 0 mana spell (even if I don't pay the kicker) is always useful to trigger Arjun. Capsize is coming back, because I got rid of Venser, Shaper Savant and I need to avoid milling myself to death. Maybe I should play something cheaper like Boomerang but with next to no recursion the buyback helps and keeps my hand large.
Hmmm... coulda sworn I succeeded in posting my deck list... Weird.
You Look To Be A Bit Hungry!, or, "Plain White Sauce Makes Your Teeth Go Gray" (I don't know why the deck is called this but I like it anyway lol)
~Lil Kalki
Didn't you call it that? Haha (: Or did you randomly select the name, after all it would fit the deck theme!
Very flavourful and thematic deck I must say. But why Tibor and Lumia?
Didn't you call it that? Haha (: Or did you randomly select the name, after all it would fit the deck theme!
Very flavourful and thematic deck I must say. But why Tibor and Lumia?
T&L has helped a bit with weenie removal, but otherwise it is filler for when I get a Consecrated Sphinx.
Swan Song: With many of my key spells costing 5-7 mana, 1 mana counters are great. Plus, Swerve is not so good against Return to Dust and modal spells :s
Crawlspace: replacing Propaganda with a fairly similar artifact.
I'm not decided on whether to replace Teferi/Lab Man with Shimmer Myr/Elixir of Immortality. The artifacts are cheaper, and cheap spells are always good to handcycle with Arjun (since I don't always have Omniscience or Dream Halls out). On the other hand, Lab Man wins me the game and Teferi protects against counters/removal on crucial turns (like the turn when I drop Omniscience). I think this may be a function of playing more 1v1 than multiplayer on MTGO - in 1v1, usually Sphinx's Tutelage/Diviner's Wand/Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind finish off the opponent fast enough to avoid me ever having to use Lab Man. I also have less counters and removal to worry about in 1v1.
I took out Labratory Maniac when I realized I never won with him. If I have a situation drawing me a ton of cards with Arjun and Archive/Reflection, I can find a win long before I am able to draw out my deck.
I don't run Teferi as he draws so much hate. But then again, that could be a form of protection for Arjun. They are both wizards to name with Cavern of Souls and be protected with Riptide Laboratory. Also, Teferi could pick up the Diviner's Wand and go nuts too.
I like Propaganda over Crawlspace. At least in my meta, Propaganda prevents a bunch of attacks. Crawlspace only protects against strikes with armies, which Propaganda does too. But Prop can also stop single attackers if they wanna tap out for something better/ they can just attack one of your opponents.
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Commander Decks: WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU GFreyalise and the ElvesG GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
Propaganda vs Crawlspace: Both have their merits (and I would run both if I had the space), but I see a lot of ramp decks to which 6+ mana, if they really want to attack you, is no big deal.
I tried replacing Teferi with Jhoira of the Ghitu - my rationale is that Jhoira can help me cast two cards from my current hand if I don't have flash. For example, if I had a hand with Sphinx's Tutelage and Vedalken Orrery, I could play the Tutelage and suspend the Orrery in response so I don't have to choose between either of them (since none of them have flash, to play one means shuffling the other into my deck). But I don't like having to wait 4 turns for whatever I exiled with Jhoira to show up.
I would have decked myself multiple times if not for discarding down to 7 at the end of each of my turns and using Elixir of Immortality/Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to shuffle my GY into the library. Niv-Mizzet and Sphinx's Tutelage took a horrible amount of clicking, and the MTGO client was being laggy so many of my clicks didn't get through. In this case, I really regretted leaving Laboratory Maniac out since it would have been pretty easy and required fewer clicks to deck myself
Or, I also played another game against Ezuri, Claw of Progress, The Mimeoplasm, and Gahiji, Honored One. Ezuri kept attacking me and only me, despite my only boardstate being Chasm Skulker (and no draw doublers) and everyone else only having 0-1 creatures to block with, for the reason that "I was playing blue". I didn't manage to find a sweeper in time and conceded at 10 life, since everyone else was close to 40 and only Ezuri had much of a board. Being focused early really ruins things for this deck. I also have trouble with indestructible/regenerating generals like Sliver Hivelord - since I need either Curse of the Swine, Confiscate or Vedalken Shackles (less useful since many indestructible things also have high P/T).
- Archaeomancer
- Elixir of Immortality
- Crawlspace
+ Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
+ Blue Sun's Zenith
+ Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
+ Caldera Hellion
Tamiyo is good, but slow. Tomorrow would help a lot in the first few spells after casting Arjun, when my hand is still only 2-3 cards.
My list has zero max hand size effects like Reliquary Tower, so Kozilek can act as an uncounterable (or less easily countered) Elixir which occasionally I can cast as well. I mean, I have hardcast Omniscience before
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
- Azami, Lady of Scrolls
- Dualcaster Mage
- Sower of Temptation
+ Consecrated Sphinx
+ Swerve
+ Gilded Drake
I don't actually have enough Wizards to make Azami work effectively, and Azami dies to most of my sweepers. Sower also got changed for a cheaper, better non-Wizard version. Swerve is a better "counterspell" than Dualcaster Mage while giving up some utility to copy powerful spells. Since I run counters mainly for protection, I think I'll try out Swerve instead.
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mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
Worse than that, it negates Alhammaret's Archive and Thought Reflection, which I consider pretty essential to keeping a full grip with Arjun. However, more often that not I reach Arjun with a hand size of 3-4, which makes Tommorrow more useful to dig 9-12 cards down rather than 3-4. So far I've been more happy than frustrated to see it in hand... Worst come to worst, Venser, Shaper Savant can bounce it.
Of course, Tomorrow is less useful if my starting hand with Arjun out is larger (6-7 cards) or I already have a draw doubler out. I think some of the difference comes from your build being more "chaos" and running Wheel of Fortune-type effects, while I tend to stay away from these effects because personally I hate giving the opponent extra cards. I'm exploring whether adding more wheels helps, though, as they mostly cost 2-4 mana and fill a hole in my "hand fattening" segment where everything is either super cheap (e.g. Brainstorm, Ponder) or expensive (Consecrated Sphinx, Stroke of Genius). With more wheels, probably Tomorrow would be phased out.
Edit: hmmm, actually your build only has Jace's Archivist/Windfall to wheel. But it's still a direction I'm considering (:
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Heck, I think that Sphinx's Tutelage would do better in the slot considering the level of draw you have available with Arjun. And again, I wouldn't discount that while Archmage Ascension takes some time to pull off, it's an optional replacement effect and you're gearing for multiplayer anyway (otherwise the deck thread would be in a different board)
at any rate, my deck has been completed on paper so I am pleased with myself - this is including but not limited to (by far!) wasted purchases such as Possibility Storm, Confusion in the Ranks, and Thieves' Auction haha
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
This is incorrect. And since I'm procrastinating, I'll explain it in the longest possible way.
Both Archive/Reflection are replacement effects, so it's Rule 616. Interaction of Replacement and/or Prevention Effects in the comprehensive rules.
If two or more effects try to replace something, the affected player chooses one to apply, following an ordered checklist.
If the effect is self replacing, it must be chosen first,
otherwise if the effect modifies whose control a permanent enters the battlefield under, it must be chosen,
otherwise if the effect makes an object become a copy of another as it enters the battlefield, it must be chosen,
otherwise you can pick how they apply.
So none of those draw replacements are any of the specific things above, meaning you get to pick what replacement effect applies, and then you continue replacing until no more effects apply. If you pick Tomorrow to apply first, you replace the draw with digging through the top 3 and that's the end of it. If you choose the Archive/Reflection, you draw 2 instead, but you're still drawing cards, so Tomorrow applies on top making you dig through the top 3 twice instead.
All the triggered abilities are actually ruined though since they're triggered abilities instead of replacement effects, and triggers don't trigger off of things that are replaced.
Congrats! (: I will be making some changes to add in Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, Jace's Archivist whatnot (though possibly not Reforge the Soul, as I don't have a reliable way to miracle it - no SDT) and see how this new direction goes...
Thanks for clearing that up, haha. Since we're on rules questions, does Psychosis Crawler actually work with Arjun? Isn't there a time between putting your cards on the bottom of the library and drawing that you actually have zero cards in hand, which would kill the Crawler immediately as it becomes a 0/0?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Creatures die for having zero toughness (or for having more damage on them than their toughness) as a state based action, so Psychosis Crawler dies if it has zero toughness when states are checked. States are checked whenever any player gains priority, so as long as nobody gains priority, Psychosis Crawler won't die. And priority doesn't pass during the resolution of a spell or ability, so there's no opportunity for it to die during Arjun's ability. And as the most convenient thing ever, the rulebook example on states not being checked during resolution is almost this exact situation:
Awesome, thanks! One more card to add (:
3/12/15: Temporarily trying some more wheel effects:
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Windfall
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Ponder
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Windfall
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Curse of the Swine
1 Ponder
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1 Caldera Hellion
Have decided to keep the wheel effects, because all that draw (even if the opponent gets some) synergises well with my on draw effects. Psychosis Crawler is a cheaper, less mana intensive version of Niv-Mizzet which gives up the ability to act as a source of card draw. Cheaper is good as most of my deck is high CMC, and I think I already have enough draw.
A lot of decks depend on ETB effects, so I'd rather get rid of stuff permanently (and not have to worry about recursion). Hence Curse of the Swine.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
It's also hilarious with Turbulent Dreams , as Arjun lets you immediately redraw whatever you discard for X as long as you had enough cards in hand. Also, Aether Tide, Recall, Firestorm, Scorched Earth, Conflagrate.
It has a no max hand size ability, though. I suppose you could just bounce or destroy it and discard down, then get your graveyard back.
Library of Leng works just fine with Wheel effects, but it doesn't work with any of those other cards. In every one of them, the discard is a cost, and Library of Leng only replaces discards due to effects, not costs.
"10/4/2004 You can't use the Library of Leng ability to place a discarded card on top of your library when you discard a card as a cost, because costs aren't effects."
Honestly, this is a thing that's always baffled me. It's probably for the best since if it worked with costs, it would help make a bunch more things go infinite, but it has to be complete chance that they formatted it that way in the first place. Library of Leng is from Alpha, there's no way they foresaw problems with things like Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell when they were designing Alpha, and there wasn't a single card that used discarding as a cost in Alpha /Beta/Unlimited.
I have found redundancy to be key to Arjun. Just as you play Archive AND Thought Reflection, Orrery AND Leyline, I highly recommend Psychosis Crawler AND Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet should not be underestimated as a monster control card, taking out problem creatures left and right. Also, I run Mindmoil so my deck can still do it's thing even if the board has become adverse to creatures (like if there is a Lethal Vapors or Attrition out.
Boardwipes which are instant and don't kill Arjun are really solid. I'm referring to Fault Line and Magmaquake (in addition to the Cyclonic Rift and Starstorm you are already running.) I have considered Earthquake and Molten Disaster, but being sorceries limits them a bit in my mind.
I love Torpor Orb for this deck. Some decks roll over and die to Torpor Orb and my decklist only runs Snapcaster Mage as a card that would be affected. My league plays with point incentives that discourage infinite combos, so I tend not to play Deadeye Navigator / Peregrine Drake / Palinchron effects, so Orb doesn't hurt me there. Similarly, I play Grafdigger's Cage as another silver bullet against reanimator decks.
One counterspell I feel never gets enough love is Swan Song, a hard counter for just U is phenomenal. Furthermore, my build runs Force of Will, Cryptic Command, and Mystic Confluence for more counter/utility.
In general, I am playing less creatures than you and a few more artifacts, notably Gilded Lotus, Memory Jar, Teferi's Puzzle Box and Grim Monolith. This led me to not run Teferi (who draws a kill spell almost immediately). I am considering playing Shimmer Myr, as my list currently has 19 artifacts. I am also playing Time Spiral and Day's Undoing.
Also, Seize the Day has won me so many games, targeting my big Psychosis Crawler, Chasm Skulker, or Diviner's Wanded Arjun.
Finally, I play all three available bouncelands, Izzet Boilerworks, Dormant Volcano, and Coral Atoll. They allow me to make land drops while still maintaining a big full hand for Arjun. Plus they work wonders with cards like Time Spiral, Treachery, or Rewind.
Commander Decks:
WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW
URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU
GFreyalise and the ElvesG
GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG
UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
-Wild Evocation (This has failed me twice, so no more)
-Archaeomancer (I think that with only 10 targets for this card a Torpor Orb[/card] is a better option than this by far)
-Crazed Firecat (As I drift farther from a coin flip build I suppose? I may not do that in the end, but the Firecat isn't that reliable without Krark's Thumb out)
-Mountain
+Call the Skybreaker (The best creature in U/R that isn't a creature at all! :D)
+Psychic Spiral (Recursion AND mill? Count me in!)
+Torpor Orb (No more ETB effects in the deck so I have nothing to lose here)
+Temple of the False God (Fixes my ratios and is very helpful in casting larger spells)
And here's what it looks like now:
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
I think the assumption is that Library of Leng was designed to soften the blow of Mind Twist and Hypnotic Specter. That and the degeneracy you mention are probably responsible for its Oracle wording. Also, the word "causes" is telling. When you activate Mind Over Matter the cause of the discard is your intention to (most likely) untap something. When you're hit by Hymn to Tourach the spell's effect is what causes you to discard.
Anyway, I think this thread should consider Sakashima the Impostor as a way to double up on certain sphinxes and dragons.
Commander Decks:
WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW
URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU
GFreyalise and the ElvesG
GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG
UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
Thanks! I forgot that Niv-Mizzet can hit creatures as well as players, so he can pull double duty as a sweeper. Will find space for him!
I suppose I can get rid of the protection for Arjun (Lightning Greaves, Deadeye Navigator) and add in the duplicate arjuns such as Mindmoil and Teferi's Puzzle Box. The draw effects stack, and Arjun gets expensive rather quickly.
Thanks for bringing up Day's Undoing, I find that the draw 7s like that and Wheel of Fortune are more reliable than Windfall and Jace's Archivist which depend on the opponent actually having cards.
I don't like getting 2-for-1ed with Strip Mine/Acidic Slime which tend to be very common on MTGO, so I won't go all in on the bouncelands. But I suppose I can try out Boilerworks as a start?
I think there is something wrong with your deck link, there is empty space between the URL tags so nothing I can click on Yup, I shall try out Torpor Orb. After taking out Palinchron a while back I don't use ETB so much anymore, and I already have a Barrin, Master Wizard deck that is all about the ETB. WOuld like to play differently (:
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
I run Darksteel Plate for Arjun, as well as the new Command Beacon for when he gets really expensive. I also have Winding Canyons so that I can flash him in from time to time to avoid kill, and have a few decent bounce spells to rescue him (his mindmoil will happen first, then he gets returned to your new hand.)
Commander Decks:
WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW
URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU
GFreyalise and the ElvesG
GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG
UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
You Look To Be A Bit Hungry!, or, "Plain White Sauce Makes Your Teeth Go Gray" (I don't know why the deck is called this but I like it anyway lol)
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Jace’s Archivist
1 Gilded Drake
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Voidmage Husher
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Windfall
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Rite of Replication
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Teferi’s Puzzle Box
1 Confiscate
1 Mindmoil
1 Torpor Orb
1 Tolaria West
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Day’s Undoing
1 Fabricate
1 Capsize
Mostly changes for Torpor Orb, replacing Windfall effects with guaranteed draw 7s, and removing random goodstuff for more focused stuff (also, less protection since I have added 2 ways to duplicate Arjun's effect).
Steel Hellkite: Running a but light on creatures, and it's also a pretty good sweeper. Plus, I need more ways to hit problem non-creature permanents and this helps.
Confiscate (for Gilded Drake): same as above (to help with enchants/artifacts/PWs), and to minimise ETBs.
Everflowing Chalice: a 0 mana spell (even if I don't pay the kicker) is always useful to trigger Arjun.
Capsize is coming back, because I got rid of Venser, Shaper Savant and I need to avoid milling myself to death. Maybe I should play something cheaper like Boomerang but with next to no recursion the buyback helps and keeps my hand large.
I find that I am increasingly relying on a few key artifacts (Teferi's Puzzle Box as a duplicate Arjun, Alhammarret's Archive for draw doubling, Psychosis Crawler and Diviner's Wand as wincons, Vedalken Shackles and Torpor Orb as control, Propaganda could easily be a Crawlspace).That's why Fabricate is back and so is Tolaria West as a way to find Academy Ruins. Buried Ruin is on the waitlist.
In a roundabout way, maybe Arjun is becoming an artifact deck? Haha.
Didn't you call it that? Haha (: Or did you randomly select the name, after all it would fit the deck theme!
Very flavourful and thematic deck I must say. But why Tibor and Lumia?
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
T&L has helped a bit with weenie removal, but otherwise it is filler for when I get a Consecrated Sphinx.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
1 Swan Song
1 Buried Ruin
1 Shimmer Myr
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Crawlspace
1 Mountain
1 Swerve
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Propaganda
1 Izzet Boilerworks
Swan Song: With many of my key spells costing 5-7 mana, 1 mana counters are great. Plus, Swerve is not so good against Return to Dust and modal spells :s
Crawlspace: replacing Propaganda with a fairly similar artifact.
I'm not decided on whether to replace Teferi/Lab Man with Shimmer Myr/Elixir of Immortality. The artifacts are cheaper, and cheap spells are always good to handcycle with Arjun (since I don't always have Omniscience or Dream Halls out). On the other hand, Lab Man wins me the game and Teferi protects against counters/removal on crucial turns (like the turn when I drop Omniscience). I think this may be a function of playing more 1v1 than multiplayer on MTGO - in 1v1, usually Sphinx's Tutelage/Diviner's Wand/Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind finish off the opponent fast enough to avoid me ever having to use Lab Man. I also have less counters and removal to worry about in 1v1.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
I don't run Teferi as he draws so much hate. But then again, that could be a form of protection for Arjun. They are both wizards to name with Cavern of Souls and be protected with Riptide Laboratory. Also, Teferi could pick up the Diviner's Wand and go nuts too.
I like Propaganda over Crawlspace. At least in my meta, Propaganda prevents a bunch of attacks. Crawlspace only protects against strikes with armies, which Propaganda does too. But Prop can also stop single attackers if they wanna tap out for something better/ they can just attack one of your opponents.
Commander Decks:
WBRQueen Marchesa's Powerful FriendsRBW
URArjun, Mindmoil SphinxRU
GFreyalise and the ElvesG
GROmnath, Ramping to RageRG
UBaral, Chef of CounterspellsU
I tried replacing Teferi with Jhoira of the Ghitu - my rationale is that Jhoira can help me cast two cards from my current hand if I don't have flash. For example, if I had a hand with Sphinx's Tutelage and Vedalken Orrery, I could play the Tutelage and suspend the Orrery in response so I don't have to choose between either of them (since none of them have flash, to play one means shuffling the other into my deck). But I don't like having to wait 4 turns for whatever I exiled with Jhoira to show up.
I played a game yesterday against Omnath, Locus of Rage, Thraximundar (zombie tribal), and Phage the Untouchable. I had a slow start with my second land coming on T5, but thankfully Phage got a quick start with Torpor Orb so the table was focusing Phage. I did manage to get Sphinx's Tutelage out and a Wheel of Fortune to mill Phage guy, but he also ran Kozilek, Butcher of Truth so it was not much use. Later Phage guy dropped Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (more a response to Thraximundar's growing zombie horde though) and exiled my Tutelage and Arjun, but I had a Chaos Warp for his Torpor Orb. After that, I managed to land both Alhammarret's Archive and Mindmoil, then used Long-Term Plans to fetch Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Niv managed to clear out both Omnath and Borborygmos Enraged while pinging down both players, but in the end he ate a Ruinous Path from Thrax. After a little bit more digging, I managed to land Psychosis Crawler on the EoT before my turn (I had Leyline of Anticipation out) and finished off both remaining opponents with a 22/22 Crawler and playing a random spell to draw 40 cards off my 20-card hand.
I would have decked myself multiple times if not for discarding down to 7 at the end of each of my turns and using Elixir of Immortality/Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to shuffle my GY into the library. Niv-Mizzet and Sphinx's Tutelage took a horrible amount of clicking, and the MTGO client was being laggy so many of my clicks didn't get through. In this case, I really regretted leaving Laboratory Maniac out since it would have been pretty easy and required fewer clicks to deck myself
Or, I also played another game against Ezuri, Claw of Progress, The Mimeoplasm, and Gahiji, Honored One. Ezuri kept attacking me and only me, despite my only boardstate being Chasm Skulker (and no draw doublers) and everyone else only having 0-1 creatures to block with, for the reason that "I was playing blue". I didn't manage to find a sweeper in time and conceded at 10 life, since everyone else was close to 40 and only Ezuri had much of a board. Being focused early really ruins things for this deck. I also have trouble with indestructible/regenerating generals like Sliver Hivelord - since I need either Curse of the Swine, Confiscate or Vedalken Shackles (less useful since many indestructible things also have high P/T).
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU