I'm running a lot of board wipe spells to help with the fact that he costs 8 mana to cast and that the colors needed are restrictive. Oblivion Stone and Perilous Vault can act as deterrents for over committing while also being able to be used right before my turn so my mana is still open. Cyclonic Rift and Evacuation as have the nice instant speed attached to them and if I hit with Bolas after it's the same as a hard wipe. Toxic Deluge and Crux of Fate both let me clear the board but leave Bolas around. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon can also remove lower costing things while leaving Bolas around and can also ping away at utility creatures.
Chandra's Ignition seems like it could be good on paper as it lets me wipe out the board with Bolas while also taking out everyone's hands. In a similar vein Soul's Fire, Scourge of Valkas, and Dragon Tempest all let Bolas damage a player directly to get rid of their hand. A few other cards would give the same effect but I'm not sure if including them would be worth it. The other cards that let you do this are
Cryptic Command and Turnabout are both cards with a lot of utility. Turnabout can either ramp me up or lock someone down, while Cryptic Command can remove a threat, tap down blockers, cantrip and counter a problematic spell. For other counter spells I have Mana Drain which is stupid good at providing ramp, Arcane Denial which is an easy counter to cast, Pact of Negation as a surprise counter spell and Glen Elendra Archmage as a multi use counter spell.
A few cards in the list I'm not sold on are Olivia Voldaren, Mindslicer, Agent of Erebos, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Olivia Voldaren seems like a nice way to remove utility creatures and provide a threat in creature steal. Overall her effect is expensive and I'm not sure it will be worth running in the long run. Mindslicer seems like a good way to defend myself on the ground as I don't see many people wanting to attack into him. He also works well with Cyclonic Rift and Evacuation for large blowouts with his trigger on the stack. Agent of Erebos seems like strong grave hate that can be used more than once. He reminds me of Angel of Finality but with a less relevant body. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is in mainly as a way to prevent my opponent from using spot removal during my turn to protect Bolas. In the long run he can also be used to give Bolas pseudo haste by casting him at the end of the player before me's turn.
The deck mainly looks to Bolas as a way to finish but his Planeswalker self is also a nice way to blow people out by providing a way to remove non creature threats and take threatening creatures for myself. So that's the general run down of the deck. If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them or if you have suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. Thanks
Hey just wanted to give feedback here to reference easily.
I feel like Olivia isn't going to be worth the investment to steal creatures. She can ping small utility like you said, but you have niv mizzet for that and he's better at it. I feel Agent of Erebos is fine for grave hate but at 4 mana and likely to trigger only once with so few enchantments I'd rather run relic of progenitus. Plus tutoraable off of trinket mage. I feel like sudden spoiling does too little and only to one player. It can be supplemented with another counter or more card draw. I don't think you have enough in the deck for it to be consistent. It feels like towards the end it went more good stuff than control. Bribery, time warp, bitterblossom to a lesser extent, and Hellkite tyrant all feel like add ins just because. I can make an argument for bitterblossom for early game presence, but I feel other creatures could make the cut or having more control elements since I don't see this keeping a 3+ pod under control.
Here is my thought. If I had to go through and reinvent the list, I would focus on some key cards to gain value off of. I would use dark confidant as a card advantage play. With this, you want cheap spells to do less harm to you. So obviously counter magic and removal will fill a large portion and are low cost. Draw spells, brainstorm, fact or fiction, night's whisper, ponder, preordain effects. Then maybe focus on 4cc or lower creatures that fit into the build. Venser, shaper savant, notion thief, baleful strix, snapcaster mage and trinket mage. Build a trinket mage package. Which you have some great options already. Things of that nature. Same for artifact ramp and utility enchantments, card draw, etc. Then of course use your high end creatures to help finish the game. Niv mizzet is good, teferi keeps the board under control, silimgur takes a threat. All are good choices.
Let me know if this helps, I feel like it will push the deck into a direction you are looking to go. Having the right answers is what you need and keeping on top of the plays is what will get you through. Of course keep the relevant cards to abuse nicol bolas is what you want to keep in. No hand equals nothing to threaten you with. Soul's fire effects are great with him.
Olivia most likely to cute over all since she has very little staying power without being more focused on and overall would be to much of a mana sink. Relic of Progenitus overall would be safer than Agent so I'll make that swap. Time Warp I think ended getting left over from when I was running more planeswalkers but with out them it probably does not do enough. I was looking at bitter blossom as a more defensive enchantment but something like No Mercy might be better. Bribery and Hellkite tyrant were a little more good stuffy and were closer to the threat side of things which I felt I was lacking on. Venser, shaper savant seems somewhat solid as an answer but I'll have to see how much I can milk him, for now I think I will let him take Olivia's spot.
Out of the cards you have listed for trinket mage that I'm not currently running I think Relic of Progenitus and Viridian Longbow might be worth it. While I'm sold on relic the bow I'm still on the fence about. With bolas costing 8 I doubt I'll ever have the 3 to equip the turn I land him. Then after that I need to pay his upkeep which eats 3 mana and then pay 3 to equip the bow. Which is doable but it's similar to making him unblockable but doing a lot less damage. Getting rid of their hand is nice but it feels expensive to get that ping off. Tormod's Crypt is good grave hate but with Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus I don't think I need a third and it feels the weakest since it can't cantrip. Mana Vault is a good rock but it only helps me out so much since at best I could use 2 to get to the initial casting of Bolas and i normally only like to run it if it curves me into my general super early. Other cards I had considered for Trinket Mage were the three artifact lands which would let me color fix with him. They also have the benefit of being untapable by Tezzeret but I'm not sure if such little synergy is worth running lands that are a lot more likely to get destroyed.
One of the most brutal things you can do with Bolas is put your opponents on instant-speed hand discard. Trigger it off the end of their Draw step and nobody else can play anything but instants for the rest of the game.
One of the most brutal things you can do with Bolas is put your opponents on instant-speed hand discard. Trigger it off the end of their Draw step and nobody else can play anything but instants for the rest of the game.
Having the instant speed hand removal would be an incredibly powerful effect but it seems to require a lot of setup and my meta is fairly aggressive on spot removal so I don't think I'd ever get to pull it off. Also Grixis is pretty bad at enchantment recursion so if the enchantments get destroyed it would be difficult to try again.
Has anyone had any experience with Sire of Stagnation? It seems like a decent control effect plus card draw but since it's 6 I'm not sure if it's worth it in the end.
Good list, my only suggestion would be to try out Rhystic Study as an early, powerful source of card advantage.
Rhystic Study can be a very good card but my meta has learned to play around it so the draw is only alright. Mystic Remora sometimes does a little better as the tax is usually unpayable but some decks I play against will feed me tons of cards and others will give almost none.
Good list, my only suggestion would be to try out Rhystic Study as an early, powerful source of card advantage.
Rhystic Study can be a very good card but my meta has learned to play around it so the draw is only alright. Mystic Remora sometimes does a little better as the tax is usually unpayable but some decks I play against will feed me tons of cards and others will give almost none.
True, but at the point that they're paying the tax for either rhystic study or the remora, you're turns closer to getting bolas online. Either way (cards or tempo) your deck is helped
Do you have a recommendation of what to cut for Rhystic Study? Reanimate was a late add and I'm not sure I need it but do you have something you'd pull out a head of it?
Do you have a recommendation of what to cut for Rhystic Study? Reanimate was a late add and I'm not sure I need it but do you have something you'd pull out a head of it?
Baleful Strix is a really good card, but without a good way to abuse him, I think you'd get better mileage out of Rhystic Study. Also Necropotence is an incredibly powerful card, but have you been able to land it consistently? In a 3 color deck that actively uses all 3 colors, I'd be a bit concerned about your ability to his 3 black by the time you want it.
A few other considerations: Your average converted mana cost is pretty high. I see some cards that might be better as other cards.
First, how has Dragonlord Silumgar been for you? He's really cool, but at that cost, I'd want to replace him. If you're using him primarily for his creature theft, I'd consider Gilded Drake or Sower of Temptation over him. If you really like the planewalker thing, you might consider Clever Impersonator. I understand this would water down your dragon subtheme, so this might not be a possibility.
Next, are you getting a lot of mileage out of Niv Mizzet, Dracogenius? Good card, but I wonder if a cheaper draw effect, or something else entirely, might be better? Personally I like Neurok Stealthsuit when using commanders that you want to connect with. It doubles as protection for Bolas, since you can equip it at instant speed to blank targeted removal.
Edit: I was mixing up the stealthsuit and Whispersilk Cloak. I think the latter is better for your purposes.
Creatures(14)
1 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Mindslicer
1 Notion Thief
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Venser, shaper savant
1 Scourge of Valkas
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Hellkite Tyrant
1 Scourge of the Throne
Artifacts(14)
1 Expedition Map
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Dimir Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Unstable Obelisk
1 Perilous Vault
1 Gilded Lotus
Enchantments(5)
1 Dragon Tempest
1 Dragon Breath
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 No Mercy
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Instants(16)
1 Pact of Negation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Arcane Denial
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Mana Drain
1 Terminate
1 Starstorm
1 Chaos Warp
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Soul's Fire
1 Cryptic Command
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Turnabout
1 Evacuation
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Dig Through Time
Sorceries(10)
1 Reanimate
1 Vandalblast
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
1 Bribery
1 Chandra's Ignition
1 Crux of Fate
1 All Is Dust
Land(37)
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Strip Mine
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Graven Cairns
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Island
4 Swamp
4 Mountain
I'm running a lot of board wipe spells to help with the fact that he costs 8 mana to cast and that the colors needed are restrictive. Oblivion Stone and Perilous Vault can act as deterrents for over committing while also being able to be used right before my turn so my mana is still open. Cyclonic Rift and Evacuation as have the nice instant speed attached to them and if I hit with Bolas after it's the same as a hard wipe. Toxic Deluge and Crux of Fate both let me clear the board but leave Bolas around. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon can also remove lower costing things while leaving Bolas around and can also ping away at utility creatures.
Chandra's Ignition seems like it could be good on paper as it lets me wipe out the board with Bolas while also taking out everyone's hands. In a similar vein Soul's Fire, Scourge of Valkas, and Dragon Tempest all let Bolas damage a player directly to get rid of their hand. A few other cards would give the same effect but I'm not sure if including them would be worth it. The other cards that let you do this are
Cryptic Command and Turnabout are both cards with a lot of utility. Turnabout can either ramp me up or lock someone down, while Cryptic Command can remove a threat, tap down blockers, cantrip and counter a problematic spell. For other counter spells I have Mana Drain which is stupid good at providing ramp, Arcane Denial which is an easy counter to cast, Pact of Negation as a surprise counter spell and Glen Elendra Archmage as a multi use counter spell.
I've added a small Dragon package to make better use of Cavern of Souls and Haven of the Spirit Dragon as well as Dragon Tempest. Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius provides good card advantage and benefits from Dragon Tempest's ping since you draw off any hit from him. Hellkite Tyrant can aid me by stealing ramp or equipment and Scourge of the Throne provides a way to hit with Bolas more often. Dragonlord Silumgar makes a strong rattlesnake blocker and can also steal a threat.
For draw I have Dragonlord's Prerogative, Dig Through Time, Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena, Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, and Wheel of Fortune. Notion Thief is also intended to act as card draw but he can also act as a blocker to opponents playing draw spells. I'll be honest in that he is more of a card I really wanted to give a shot at running, I'm not actually sure how solid he will be overall.
For tutors I'm running the standard Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor as well as Trinket Mage which can grab Expedition Map for land tutor, Nihil Spellbomb for graveyard hate, Sensei's Divining Top for filtering, or Sol Ring for Ramp. Tezzeret the Seeker lets me search for an artifact I need weather it be a board wipe, protection, ramp or removal and can also ramp me but untapping some of my rocks.
A few cards in the list I'm not sold on are Olivia Voldaren, Mindslicer, Agent of Erebos, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Olivia Voldaren seems like a nice way to remove utility creatures and provide a threat in creature steal. Overall her effect is expensive and I'm not sure it will be worth running in the long run. Mindslicer seems like a good way to defend myself on the ground as I don't see many people wanting to attack into him. He also works well with Cyclonic Rift and Evacuation for large blowouts with his trigger on the stack. Agent of Erebos seems like strong grave hate that can be used more than once. He reminds me of Angel of Finality but with a less relevant body. Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is in mainly as a way to prevent my opponent from using spot removal during my turn to protect Bolas. In the long run he can also be used to give Bolas pseudo haste by casting him at the end of the player before me's turn.
The deck mainly looks to Bolas as a way to finish but his Planeswalker self is also a nice way to blow people out by providing a way to remove non creature threats and take threatening creatures for myself. So that's the general run down of the deck. If you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them or if you have suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. Thanks
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
I feel like Olivia isn't going to be worth the investment to steal creatures. She can ping small utility like you said, but you have niv mizzet for that and he's better at it. I feel Agent of Erebos is fine for grave hate but at 4 mana and likely to trigger only once with so few enchantments I'd rather run relic of progenitus. Plus tutoraable off of trinket mage. I feel like sudden spoiling does too little and only to one player. It can be supplemented with another counter or more card draw. I don't think you have enough in the deck for it to be consistent. It feels like towards the end it went more good stuff than control. Bribery, time warp, bitterblossom to a lesser extent, and Hellkite tyrant all feel like add ins just because. I can make an argument for bitterblossom for early game presence, but I feel other creatures could make the cut or having more control elements since I don't see this keeping a 3+ pod under control.
Here is my thought. If I had to go through and reinvent the list, I would focus on some key cards to gain value off of. I would use dark confidant as a card advantage play. With this, you want cheap spells to do less harm to you. So obviously counter magic and removal will fill a large portion and are low cost. Draw spells, brainstorm, fact or fiction, night's whisper, ponder, preordain effects. Then maybe focus on 4cc or lower creatures that fit into the build. Venser, shaper savant, notion thief, baleful strix, snapcaster mage and trinket mage. Build a trinket mage package. Which you have some great options already. Things of that nature. Same for artifact ramp and utility enchantments, card draw, etc. Then of course use your high end creatures to help finish the game. Niv mizzet is good, teferi keeps the board under control, silimgur takes a threat. All are good choices.
Trinket mage package options to consider:
Let me know if this helps, I feel like it will push the deck into a direction you are looking to go. Having the right answers is what you need and keeping on top of the plays is what will get you through. Of course keep the relevant cards to abuse nicol bolas is what you want to keep in. No hand equals nothing to threaten you with. Soul's fire effects are great with him.
WBR Alesha's Death Brigade WBR
WWW Brigid the Battlefield Saboteur WWW
UB Wydwen, the Biting Gale UB
Out of the cards you have listed for trinket mage that I'm not currently running I think Relic of Progenitus and Viridian Longbow might be worth it. While I'm sold on relic the bow I'm still on the fence about. With bolas costing 8 I doubt I'll ever have the 3 to equip the turn I land him. Then after that I need to pay his upkeep which eats 3 mana and then pay 3 to equip the bow. Which is doable but it's similar to making him unblockable but doing a lot less damage. Getting rid of their hand is nice but it feels expensive to get that ping off. Tormod's Crypt is good grave hate but with Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus I don't think I need a third and it feels the weakest since it can't cantrip. Mana Vault is a good rock but it only helps me out so much since at best I could use 2 to get to the initial casting of Bolas and i normally only like to run it if it curves me into my general super early. Other cards I had considered for Trinket Mage were the three artifact lands which would let me color fix with him. They also have the benefit of being untapable by Tezzeret but I'm not sure if such little synergy is worth running lands that are a lot more likely to get destroyed.
Current swaps I'm looking at trying are
Out:
Olivia Voldaren
Agent of Erebos
Bitterblossom
time warp
sudden spoiling
In:
Venser, shaper savant
Relic of Progenitus
No Mercy
Fact or Fiction
Chaos Warp
I will also look more into Dark Confidant but I want to be more sure of him fitting in with the current curve, it seems like he would be fine though.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
One of the most brutal things you can do with Bolas is put your opponents on instant-speed hand discard. Trigger it off the end of their Draw step and nobody else can play anything but instants for the rest of the game.
Nicol Bolas Dragon Dick
Hanna, Ship's Navigator Heart-attack Stax
Oona, Queen of the Fae Fairy Dance
Vhati Il-Dal Tree of Woe
Scion of the Ur-Dragon Durgensturm
Jolrael, Empress of Beasts Jamuraa's Army
Liliana, Heretical Healer Rise from your Graves and Proliferate
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Angelic Judgment [
Having the instant speed hand removal would be an incredibly powerful effect but it seems to require a lot of setup and my meta is fairly aggressive on spot removal so I don't think I'd ever get to pull it off. Also Grixis is pretty bad at enchantment recursion so if the enchantments get destroyed it would be difficult to try again.
Has anyone had any experience with Sire of Stagnation? It seems like a decent control effect plus card draw but since it's 6 I'm not sure if it's worth it in the end.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsRhystic Study can be a very good card but my meta has learned to play around it so the draw is only alright. Mystic Remora sometimes does a little better as the tax is usually unpayable but some decks I play against will feed me tons of cards and others will give almost none.
RGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
True, but at the point that they're paying the tax for either rhystic study or the remora, you're turns closer to getting bolas online. Either way (cards or tempo) your deck is helped
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsRGW Rith, the Awakener
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
UBR Nicol Bolas
GWU Treva, the Renewer
RWU Numot, the Devastator
Baleful Strix is a really good card, but without a good way to abuse him, I think you'd get better mileage out of Rhystic Study. Also Necropotence is an incredibly powerful card, but have you been able to land it consistently? In a 3 color deck that actively uses all 3 colors, I'd be a bit concerned about your ability to his 3 black by the time you want it.
A few other considerations: Your average converted mana cost is pretty high. I see some cards that might be better as other cards.
First, how has Dragonlord Silumgar been for you? He's really cool, but at that cost, I'd want to replace him. If you're using him primarily for his creature theft, I'd consider Gilded Drake or Sower of Temptation over him. If you really like the planewalker thing, you might consider Clever Impersonator. I understand this would water down your dragon subtheme, so this might not be a possibility.
Next, are you getting a lot of mileage out of Niv Mizzet, Dracogenius? Good card, but I wonder if a cheaper draw effect, or something else entirely, might be better? Personally I like Neurok Stealthsuit when using commanders that you want to connect with. It doubles as protection for Bolas, since you can equip it at instant speed to blank targeted removal.
Edit: I was mixing up the stealthsuit and Whispersilk Cloak. I think the latter is better for your purposes.
Good luck!
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears