Worse than Ruby Medallion. Even slower Arcane-less Zada builds don't have enough non-red spells to make Stone Calendar worth playing over that. As for if it's worth running both, I'd say no. Battle Hymn, Brightstone Ritual, Mana Geyser, Skirk Prospector, and spliced Desperate Ritual make more than enough mana to pay for our spells on the combo turn so spending 5 mana on a card that doesn't really do anything won't help us.
Pretty slow and heavy costed, it's a big investment that allows your opponents to take advantage of it before you, which could be dangerous. The advantage of Helm of Awakening is that it is not a dead card while going off, and often can be laid the turn you go off to prevent opponents form taking advantage of it.
Pretty slow and heavy costed, it's a big investment that allows your opponents to take advantage of it before you, which could be dangerous. The advantage of Helm of Awakening is that it is not a dead card while going off, and often can be laid the turn you go off to prevent opponents form taking advantage of it.
Stone Calendar is only your spells. That said, I still wouldn't play it. I think the only other 5 drop I would consider would be kiki-jiki.
One card I'm playing that I don't think I've seen mentioned is Soul's Fire. Can easily kill a player or two when you're not going to quite get there with combat damage, gets around things like ghostly prison or crawlspace, clears annoying blockers off the table, or can just push through the last bits of damage. One of the best cards in the deck imo.
It doesn't trigger Zada, since it targets both a creature and a player and Zada only triggers if she's the only target of the spell. Once you have a creature with 40+ power it could kill someone, but at that point the table is likely just dead.
It appears Zada gets a lot of countering and removal in my playgroups. She's fallen on her face pretty consistently of late. The other night not much else was done to me other than Zada getting quite hated on. I had Twinflame and two slow cantrips in hand and a handful of creatures including Young Pyromancer. One player event went so far as to use one card to bounce Zada and another to make me discard her. She ended up costing 10-12 total mana to cast and I scooped, leaving the player who two-for-oned at the mercy of the other player.
So now it seems I'll have to approach this deck differently, with some protection for her. Command Beacon seems like it might be handy. Considering Pyroblast and Red Elemental blast as well.
Any consideration given to Seething Anger, or is the buyback just never relevant? Even if it's just occasionally helpful, that feels like it's gotta be an upgrade over some pump spell. Maybe Brute Force, maybe some spell in another category.
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Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG WRG Mayael the Anima WRG WB Triad of Fates WB BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR WR Aurelia the Warleader WR WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
Mortorpod is interesting, but if I'm paying two mana for a creature, I usually want more than one of them. It would basically play like a mogg fanatic that costs more and lacks the goblin synergy. That's not terrible, but it's also not quite what I'm looking for in a creature/creature source.
Exactly. The biggest advantage to P&K, SGC, and Fanatic is they're repeatable at instant speed. I realized that Fanatic's advantage over Spikeshot Elder is if you've Twinflamed/Shimmered and have multiple Fanatics.
14 instances of Overblaze (also thanks to Mastery)
grand total damage, with double strike and trample from Temur Battle Rage: almost 80 trillion
Edit: I may have goofed in my math on the 576,000. Can't seem to get above 528,000 with what I think my sequence of plays was. That would result in 72 trillion damage.
It's occurred to me that it's pretty important to save Strionic Resonator for something big like Path of Anger's Flame (spliced with DR and OB) or a hugely pumped Blazing Shoal (also spliced). Also, early in the process of going off I had 28 cards left in the library and 27 creatures. Rather than draw all of those with an immediate cantrip (had 3 in hand), I used the scrying from Portent (before tapping Krenko again) to get to the last few needed cards (including 2 Arcane spells), responding to that scry with a cantrip targeting somebody other than Zada to draw 1 card, then continue resolving the scrying.
I've begun to wonder if it's possible to go rather infinite with Shimmer Myr and Elixir of Immortality in the middle of drawing through the deck to repeatedly cast cantrips to continue the drawing, rituals, arcane and pump spells etc. No matter how many card draws are left, are left, one should have the Myr and the Elixir in hand to resolve those, cast some more spells if necessary, and dump the graveyard back into the library to continue drawing. I still like the idea of being able to do as much as we do without infinite combos, but I appreciate that this one takes awareness and timing (compared to Dualcaster Mage + Twinflame).
Happy splicing, folks.
That was absolutely awesome. I like the strategy of stacking scry with single effect cantrips as a way to choose what is drawn. It won't always be relevant (3 cantrips in your hand), but it's a line of play that may not otherwise be considered.
I like the idea of shimmer myr with elixir, and that would allow the deck to truly go infinite, while also preventing suicide by cantrip. I'm still somewhat undecided over the inclusion of the option for infinite combo here. That's part of why dualcaster mage isn't in this deck; it makes the other numbers seem less impressive by comparison, which is a very subjective thing for me to say in the first place. I do agree that it is the less obvious combo by comparison to dualcaster mage combos, and doesn't actual go infinite by itself, rather being a feedback of the original combo.
If we ignore my opinion and just consider the cards in question, lets look at shimmer myr first. Artifacts having flash better facilitates trying to go off during a combat step. Re-enabling otherwise awesome-but-dead draws (in that situation) such as scroll rack or helm of awakening would be beneficial. The myr also being a creature somewhat mitigates the cost. If you have been forced to go for it due to chaotic strike, then shimmer myr may be a good inclusion. I could see it replacing a different 3 drop creature.
With that inclusion, the easiest swap to fit in elixir of immortality would probably be firestorm. Accounting for treasonous ogre (which you would have access to if decking is a concern), then the two are comparable in mana cost, and the original intent for firestorm was to win with a lethal cantrip still on the stack.
Other impacts from shimmer myr's potential inclusion may be a reconsideration of sculpting steel as another draw effect or cost reducer. Additionally, a build focused on going off during combat may include cards like dragonrage.
Overall, I could see building either way. It would most likely be personal preference in methods to survive an empty library, and flexibility in timing to go off in combat. I may go the elixir route to remove my easy button.
I've been clicking on this thread whenever I see it, so I'm just going to comment and get this one in my list of threads I've commented in.
The closest experience I have to a deck like this is my Rakdos, Lord of Riots deck. It doesn't do splice arcane shenanigans, but it does chain creatures into mana into card draw into creatures into mana etc, etc, etc. The best new addition I've made to my Rakdos deck in a long time is Flameshadow Conjuring. The one red to duplicate a creature absolutely goes places when you can easily getitrightback. The 4 mana to cast it before you start going off is the biggest sticking point I can see for something that might be overkill, but with all those creature etb token generations, you can make a conjuring clone of like half the creatures in the deck and immediately hit critical mass while having that utility stick around later. I use it with Thermopod to make my board absolutely explode.
The closest comparison that can be made to flameshadow conjuring is possibility storm. At 5 mana to see the first effect from it, it tops the curve, while also needing to be on the battlefield before we start going off to reap the most reward. Obviously, it generates a good number of tokens when it works, but I'd be concerned about its mana cost.
If there were 3-5 more good red creatures that made 2+ tokens, I'd consider it. If it cost the same as goblinslide, that could also change my mind. I may revisit it if we see more creatures that would work well with it. As it stands now, I think the mana cost is slightly too high for current inclusion. I'll try testing it, but it will be in a 5 cmc slot.
It might be worth testing, but for 1 or 2 more, casting Zada and then Twinflame or Heat Shimmer copies all the creatures.
However, I am curious to test thermopod since it provides R. Sacrificing creatures also sacrifices the scope of other effects, so I think it's viewed as a more desperate option to make sure we go off.
I'm currently testing with Lotus Bloom and Iron Myr for those extra bits of mana to go off. Just got a Chrome Mox to try that. I'm a bit wary of exiling a card though. Also going to be testing with Zap in place of one of the slow cantrips. Mob Rule was quite helpful tonight. Not totally sold on it, but it seems like a good surprise.
Thermopod being a creature is certainly enticing in comparison to phyrexian altar, but the increased cost has kept me from making that inclusion. I have been treating the altar more along the lines of a slow ritual, and I'm not sure that I would pay 5 for the same effect. In either case, losing creatures to generate mana is not when we want to be, but it can work well to bridge the gap into a more sustainable, or larger mana source. Sacrificing is worth inclusion as a ritual, but the higher cost effects should be considered carefully.
I like the idea of iron myr, and it was in my original pile of 150 cards along with sisters of the flame. Neither made the final cut for me. Now that I'm looking at reducing land count to 33 or so, iron myr may replace a land. I'd be willing to test that change.
I am curious to know the results of your testing with zap. I'd been concerned by the potential loss of creatures, but the immediate card draw is enticing.
How do you feel about Riddle of Lightning? I know it would be at the top of your curve, but in my testing I found scrying 30 and leaving a land on top so my creatures live and then on the zada copy throwing the land to the bottom and putting a powerful 1 cost of top to be an extremely powerful way to dig for what I need.
You can also lead a turn with a Spite of Mogis if you have no instants/sorceries in your graveyard, for a powerful 1 mana, scry 8+ spell.
Another hilarious interaction is throwing Eternal Warrior on Zada, and then targeting her with Seize the Day for an obscene amount of combat steps where you can swing with her, AND it flashes back for cheaper, so it's fine to toss to a loot spell.
Scry is excellent draw-fixing for Zada decks, but I'm somewhat hesitant to include cards exclusively for their scry effect. The two I currently run check boxes for other categories as well, specifically pump and creature(s).
Riddle of lightning has the potential to basically stack our deck, but can't draw any cards by itself. If the revealed card went to our hand, this would be an entirely different card. However, at 5 mana, with no draw attached to it, I don't think that this makes the cut.
Spite of Mogis is an interesting suggestion, but I think it is a bit too corner case. It's a good way to set up for the storm turn, but by then we may have already cast krenkos command or hordling outburst, which would backfire on us. I don't think it would be a safe inclusion here.
Eternal Warrior is rather brilliant with seize the day, but I don't currently run seize. I don't know if I could find 2 slots for this, but if someone out there is already playing with angel's trumpet, they should probably consider eternal warrior. If eternal warrior were a one-shot instant or sorcery, I would probably more strongly consider the inclusion of those two cards.
Stone Calendar has done work for me in other decks, but I don't think that I would be willing to pay more than 3 mana for cost reduction. Which does remind me that I need to test cloud key.
One card I'm playing that I don't think I've seen mentioned is Soul's Fire. Can easily kill a player or two when you're not going to quite get there with combat damage, gets around things like ghostly prison or crawlspace, clears annoying blockers off the table, or can just push through the last bits of damage. One of the best cards in the deck imo.
Soul's fire doesn't actually work that well with Zada, as it should be targeting a creature or player other that Zada to work, which invalidates Zada's triggered ability. The closest we can get to a multiple use sould's fire is spikeshot elder, at a similar mana cost. I've been testing that on an off, and haven't been completely convinced yet.
It appears Zada gets a lot of countering and removal in my playgroups. She's fallen on her face pretty consistently of late. The other night not much else was done to me other than Zada getting quite hated on. I had Twinflame and two slow cantrips in hand and a handful of creatures including Young Pyromancer. One player event went so far as to use one card to bounce Zada and another to make me discard her. She ended up costing 10-12 total mana to cast and I scooped, leaving the player who two-for-oned at the mercy of the other player.
So now it seems I'll have to approach this deck differently, with some protection for her. Command Beacon seems like it might be handy. Considering Pyroblast and Red Elemental blast as well.
I play Zada infrequently enough (only one of 32 decks) that I haven't seen this much focused disruption, so you're seeing difficulties that I have not yet encountered. I don't think that I've had Zada cost more than 6 except once or twice.
If you're seeing that many counterspells, have you considered cavern of souls in addition to the two red blasts? The goblin package is perhaps big enough to support it, and even outside of that it still produces 1. Command beacon also sounds like a reasonable response. As I've said before, I try to avoid lands that don't produce R, but your groups may necessitate it.
If there were monored creatures along the lines of vexing shusher, that would be more ideal. I don't really have a lot of suggestions. The deck is never going to be "top tier" just by the overall strategy being so heavily built on Zadas presence and the need for additional tokens. It's rather straightforward to disrupt us when an opponent knows what they're looking at.
That's not to say the deck can't perform, more a complaint that there aren't more ways that I can see to allow Zada to push through such an environment. Sorry I haven't been more helpful.
Any consideration given to Seething Anger, or is the buyback just never relevant? Even if it's just occasionally helpful, that feels like it's gotta be an upgrade over some pump spell. Maybe Brute Force, maybe some spell in another category.
Seething Anger and Haze of Rage are both good pump spells if nothing else. Of the two, I would suggest looking at haze of rage first, as it doesn't take much for the storm copies to break even with seething anger. Additionally, by having a large portion of its total buyback (3R for both spells in question) in the casting cost instead of the buyback, haze of rage will interact better with cost reduction effects.
Buyback is an additional cost and figured into the total cost of the spell even though it's not part of the casting cost. Medallions and the Helm have their affect on the total cost. So both Seething Anger and Haze of Rage would both get reduced the same. Having said that, my preference would be for Haze because of the storm aspect. It's not uncommon when going off to get 30-40 goblins from Empty the Warrens from the spell count. So storm and buyback are pretty fantastic if we're producing mana.
I run a Cavern in my Norin deck (plenty of goblins there, too), but I think I only have the one. I might have to switch it and try that out.
Zap hasn't done so well just yet. It sucks a lot when you haven't been able to make creatures in the double-digits and it's the only cantrip you've come across. The only things that'll save my creatures if I use it and let all copies resolve is Titan's Strength, Brute Force, and possibly Strange Inversion (which has to be handled carefully, doing at least one of the first two before doing it again). I'll probably try it again soon, but I tend to dislike Balduvian Rage just as much as a cantrip because it says target attacking creature.
So far I'm looking at possibly Goblin Chirurgeon, Boots, Pyroblast, Beacon going in. Haven't started looking at slots for them, yet. I'll likely have to reduce my pump spell count to fit protection in.
I had already swapped out Fists for Uncanny Speed for the haste-enabling.
Edit: Regarding Iron Myr, testing will continue at some point. It's inclusion is about enabling that marginal edge in creatures and mana to help get the deck off the ground, at which point it isn't but a body.
I play Zada infrequently enough (only one of 32 decks) that I haven't seen this much focused disruption, so you're seeing difficulties that I have not yet encountered. I don't think that I've had Zada cost more than 6 except once or twice.
I neglected to mention that was the second time I'd run Zada with that group. They're very close, old friends of mine, but I have a reputation with them and sometimes games turn into Archenemy. When we first started playing EDH together, they hardly had any removal or wipes. I'd say they've learned.
Dealing with targeted hate in Zada can be annoying, but it does make for tense, dynamic games. I've dealt with it mostly by trying to make the deck even lower to the ground, so that there just are fewer chances to disrupt me, but my playgroup has grown wise to Zada's bag of tricks. No deck can really ever consistently beat out a competnent table dedicated to hating it out, but I tend to try to play the deck one of two ways if hate is coming my way--
1)Just try to combo out as early as possible, or
2)Try to go off all in the same turn as I cast Zada.
Option 2 can be pretty fun. I've won games where I resolved Zada, my opponents immediately responded with spot removal, and I won the game by making use of Zada while the removal spell was on the stack, casting rituals and cantrips until I didn't care if Zada was on the field or not. Additionally, it's possible to play Zada as some weird value tokens deck, not trying to go off, and just grabbing a few cards here and there until you're able to go off.
It's also just important to know when to try to go off, and when it's better to bait a wrath or just bide your time until you find an opening. It can be tough, but it's very doable.
Some cards that help against disruption that I've enjoyed using--
Goblin Chiurgeon is an absolute lifesaver. It's almost always what I tutor for with Goblin Matron, unless I'm trying to win that turn with Skirk Prospector, as it makes tapping out for Zada a much less stressful situation.
Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon don't directly protect against disruption, but they can paralyze your opponents for long enough that you can combo out while they're trying to get their mana together.
Defense Grid is just fantastic for keeping your turn safe from disruption. I haven't tested it in this deck specifically, but Mana Web might be a similarly good card for us.
Final Fortune might not look like a great card for fighting against disruption, but sometimes, you've just got to go for it when an opening, however small, opens up. It's an instant, so I've occasionally used it at the end of an opponent's turn after they've tapped out, before another person can try to disrupt me. Most of the time it just buys me that one extra turn I need to win, but it can be used to fight against hate as well. It's also worth noting that Final Fortune works well with the 'slow cantrips' this deck runs, because you'll draw all those cards on your extra turn and not have to discard down the turn you cast Final Fortune.
On the subject of Elixir of Immortality--has running out of cards really been a problem for people? Generally, when I'm going off, I can control how many cards I'm drawing fairly well. I have to be careful and not just rampantly cast cantrips once my field begins getting particularly big, but by that time I'm generally able to just cast a couple pump spells and kill the table. If you're in danger of drawing your deck, that means you have a massive field and a massive hand, and you should be able to win via Fiery Gambit/Firestorm if you need noncombat damage, or just attacking normally if not. If neither will work for some reason, you probably shouldn't be trying to go off in the first place anyways.
With all that said, I really can't imagine it's worth it to take up two slots in the deck for cards that don't synergize with the deck at all unless the deck is already going off. Zada has to run a lot of conditional spells as it is, I'm not sure I'm interested in running cards that are even more conditional than usual. Firestorm is already my 'only good when I'm about to win' card, I don't really want more.
Buyback is an additional cost and figured into the total cost of the spell even though it's not part of the casting cost. Medallions and the Helm have their affect on the total cost. So both Seething Anger and Haze of Rage would both get reduced the same. Having said that, my preference would be for Haze because of the storm aspect. It's not uncommon when going off to get 30-40 goblins from Empty the Warrens from the spell count. So storm and buyback are pretty fantastic if we're producing mana.
I run a Cavern in my Norin deck (plenty of goblins there, too), but I think I only have the one. I might have to switch it and try that out.
Zap hasn't done so well just yet. It sucks a lot when you haven't been able to make creatures in the double-digits and it's the only cantrip you've come across. The only things that'll save my creatures if I use it and let all copies resolve is Titan's Strength, Brute Force, and possibly Strange Inversion (which has to be handled carefully, doing at least one of the first two before doing it again). I'll probably try it again soon, but I tend to dislike Balduvian Rage just as much as a cantrip because it says target attacking creature.
So far I'm looking at possibly Goblin Chirurgeon, Boots, Pyroblast, Beacon going in. Haven't started looking at slots for them, yet. I'll likely have to reduce my pump spell count to fit protection in.
I had already swapped out Fists for Uncanny Speed for the haste-enabling.
Edit: Regarding Iron Myr, testing will continue at some point. It's inclusion is about enabling that marginal edge in creatures and mana to help get the deck off the ground, at which point it isn't but a body.
I play Zada infrequently enough (only one of 32 decks) that I haven't seen this much focused disruption, so you're seeing difficulties that I have not yet encountered. I don't think that I've had Zada cost more than 6 except once or twice.
I neglected to mention that was the second time I'd run Zada with that group. They're very close, old friends of mine, but I have a reputation with them and sometimes games turn into Archenemy. When we first started playing EDH together, they hardly had any removal or wipes. I'd say they've learned.
I also don't have 32 decks [yet].
I knew cost reduction applied to buyback. I'm not sure what I was thinking yesterday. Thank you for correcting me.
I want to like zap, but it seems too high a cost in most situations, even here. I've wished that toughness boosting pump was in reds color pie, but it's few and far between.
Iron myr being nothing more than another creature to radiate to is a large enough boon to be worth considering. I'm rather sure that I would play a colorshifted dryad arbor in Zada, so most similar creatures deserve at least consideration.
I've considered the numbers, and I'm wondering what you're looking at dropping for your protection package. I'm assuming the slower cantrips, some pump spells and some arcane spells.
Dealing with targeted hate in Zada can be annoying, but it does make for tense, dynamic games. I've dealt with it mostly by trying to make the deck even lower to the ground, so that there just are fewer chances to disrupt me, but my playgroup has grown wise to Zada's bag of tricks. No deck can really ever consistently beat out a competnent table dedicated to hating it out, but I tend to try to play the deck one of two ways if hate is coming my way--
1)Just try to combo out as early as possible, or
2)Try to go off all in the same turn as I cast Zada.
Option 2 can be pretty fun. I've won games where I resolved Zada, my opponents immediately responded with spot removal, and I won the game by making use of Zada while the removal spell was on the stack, casting rituals and cantrips until I didn't care if Zada was on the field or not. Additionally, it's possible to play Zada as some weird value tokens deck, not trying to go off, and just grabbing a few cards here and there until you're able to go off.
It's also just important to know when to try to go off, and when it's better to bait a wrath or just bide your time until you find an opening. It can be tough, but it's very doable.
Some cards that help against disruption that I've enjoyed using--
Goblin Chiurgeon is an absolute lifesaver. It's almost always what I tutor for with Goblin Matron, unless I'm trying to win that turn with Skirk Prospector, as it makes tapping out for Zada a much less stressful situation.
Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon don't directly protect against disruption, but they can paralyze your opponents for long enough that you can combo out while they're trying to get their mana together.
Defense Grid is just fantastic for keeping your turn safe from disruption. I haven't tested it in this deck specifically, but Mana Web might be a similarly good card for us.
Final Fortune might not look like a great card for fighting against disruption, but sometimes, you've just got to go for it when an opening, however small, opens up. It's an instant, so I've occasionally used it at the end of an opponent's turn after they've tapped out, before another person can try to disrupt me. Most of the time it just buys me that one extra turn I need to win, but it can be used to fight against hate as well. It's also worth noting that Final Fortune works well with the 'slow cantrips' this deck runs, because you'll draw all those cards on your extra turn and not have to discard down the turn you cast Final Fortune.
On the subject of Elixir of Immortality--has running out of cards really been a problem for people? Generally, when I'm going off, I can control how many cards I'm drawing fairly well. I have to be careful and not just rampantly cast cantrips once my field begins getting particularly big, but by that time I'm generally able to just cast a couple pump spells and kill the table. If you're in danger of drawing your deck, that means you have a massive field and a massive hand, and you should be able to win via Fiery Gambit/Firestorm if you need noncombat damage, or just attacking normally if not. If neither will work for some reason, you probably shouldn't be trying to go off in the first place anyways.
With all that said, I really can't imagine it's worth it to take up two slots in the deck for cards that don't synergize with the deck at all unless the deck is already going off. Zada has to run a lot of conditional spells as it is, I'm not sure I'm interested in running cards that are even more conditional than usual. Firestorm is already my 'only good when I'm about to win' card, I don't really want more.
I think that all of these card suggestions are solid, if metagame dependent. I know you run low numbers of pump/arcane to make the space for it, so it's unlikely I'd be able to run that many of them, but other playgroups would require a way to weather disruption.
It's good to hear that Final Fortune worked out for you, I may try that myself. I play it to good effect in my Krenko deck, but I hadn't tested here yet.
Going off the turn Zada comes down is fun to do, or at least attempt. I don't normally go that route, but it makes sense when Zada is drawing more removal than I've seen. Krenko, mob boss and young pyromancer draw removal more often than Zada does for me. I've only been in a situation once where I succeeded in going off the same turn, with removal on the stack. It really is satisfying.
The shimmer myr + elixir of immortality combo is, as you describe, win-more. It's fun to consider, but you're most likely correct that the parts don't do enough except after already going off. I'll still test it, but it's less likely to make a final cut.
I'll try to update the first post and edit this post with changelist tonight.
In spoilery news, we've gotten two high-CMC red cards that I'm actually pretty interested in testing out. Chandra, Flamecaller and Goblin Dark-Dwellers both seem extremely playable in this deck. Chandra can be either a temporary source of extra bodies or a wheel effect if our hand isn't doing what we need, and the Goblin can rebuy a cantrip or ritual.
I've considered the numbers, and I'm wondering what you're looking at dropping for your protection package. I'm assuming the slower cantrips, some pump spells and some arcane spells.
Out: Balduvian Rage
In: Gamble
I always found the target attacking creature to be a really limiting clause on Rage as a card-draw. It meant Zada had to be attacking, and any other creatures for which I wanted to draw cards.
Out: Brute Force
In: Goblin Chirurgeon
More goblins! Protection for Zada! Brute Force may see its way back in alongside Fury Charm if I test Zap again.
Out: Strionic Resonator
In: Iron Myr
Testing him again. The resonator helps double almost anything, but it seems to me that it's only useful in helping us go off early on if we blow its activation on a cantrip. Might find its way back in.
Out: Kher Keep
In: Cavern of Souls
I just never bloody used Kher Keep unless I was desperate for a creature, which is not a good sign. Always seemed like a bandaid instead of a solution for the problem. Could be wrong, though.
Out: Downhill Charge
In: Fury Charm
Having a removal option, trample-enabler, or accelaration on Lotus Bloom seemed ok.
I haven't tried slotting in Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Command Beacon, or Swiftfoot Boots. Mostly because my unfortunate experience last time was facing two control-ish decks in a 3-player game. So I'm trying not to overreact and see if this is enough.
mogg fanatic swaps between spikeshot elder fairly frequently. Elder is more effective when a loss is on the stack and you can make mana. Fanatic is free, synergizes with copies, but needs overblaze.
unearthly blizzard was my only sorcery speed arcane spell, and the most often not useful. It also couldn't splice onto path.
thatcher revolt got edged out by a more efficient and lower cost source of more permanent tokens. It was only ever used during the storm turn, so the other cost is reduced.
mana geyser has come back in as a huge explosion of mana.
Devastating Summons provides tokens at a 2:1 ratio to mana cost. The other cost is usually irrelevant when we're going off, and this stays very low the the ground in cost.
In spoilery news, we've gotten two high-CMC red cards that I'm actually pretty interested in testing out. Chandra, Flamecaller and Goblin Dark-Dwellers both seem extremely playable in this deck. Chandra can be either a temporary source of extra bodies or a wheel effect if our hand isn't doing what we need, and the Goblin can rebuy a cantrip or ritual.
I'm really looking forward to testing goblin dark-dwellers. There are just so many ways that these can pay off, while adding a creature to the count. It's like Mizzix's mastery all over again.
I'm not sold on Chandra, Flamecaller, but then I don't play any wheel effects. I do like her synergy here and she may see testing for me.
I've considered the numbers, and I'm wondering what you're looking at dropping for your protection package. I'm assuming the slower cantrips, some pump spells and some arcane spells.
Out: Balduvian Rage
In: Gamble
I always found the target attacking creature to be a really limiting clause on Rage as a card-draw. It meant Zada had to be attacking, and any other creatures for which I wanted to draw cards.
Out: Brute Force
In: Goblin Chirurgeon
More goblins! Protection for Zada! Brute Force may see its way back in alongside Fury Charm if I test Zap again.
Out: Strionic Resonator
In: Iron Myr
Testing him again. The resonator helps double almost anything, but it seems to me that it's only useful in helping us go off early on if we blow its activation on a cantrip. Might find its way back in.
Out: Kher Keep
In: Cavern of Souls
I just never bloody used Kher Keep unless I was desperate for a creature, which is not a good sign. Always seemed like a bandaid instead of a solution for the problem. Could be wrong, though.
Out: Downhill Charge
In: Fury Charm
Having a removal option, trample-enabler, or accelaration on Lotus Bloom seemed ok.
I haven't tried slotting in Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Command Beacon, or Swiftfoot Boots. Mostly because my unfortunate experience last time was facing two control-ish decks in a 3-player game. So I'm trying not to overreact and see if this is enough.
It's somewhat entertaining that we've made rather similar cuts, but gone in slightly different directions. It's always interesting to learn other ways similar decks get played. Fury charm is an intriguing multipurpose inclusion.
I've somewhat resisted going as deep into a goblin package as some posters have because I already have a Krenko deck.
Devastating Summons is definitely all-in. I might try that and Haze of Rage some time. I haven't tried using Phyrexian Altar yet, mostly because I have plans for a mono-black sacrifice deck, but there are enough no-cost sac outlets available that one that produces red mana could stand to be in a different deck. Think I'll have to give it a shot some time.
Chrome Mox is definitely worth it, though I'll have to give my impressions some time of Koth.
Hellrider is a bit expensive at 4 mana, which competes with casting Zada instead. And with the buffing, doubling, and trample involved in this deck, the damage he'll deal to each player is a fraction of what the creatures could deal. He's not terrible, and some might consider it for a variant that doesn't aim for millions of damage. I think he'd fit better in a Krenko deck that just focuses on tokens, rather than Zada where the focus in on the instants and sorceries that get radiated to our creatures.
Devastating Summons is definitely all-in. I might try that and Haze of Rage some time. I haven't tried using Phyrexian Altar yet, mostly because I have plans for a mono-black sacrifice deck, but there are enough no-cost sac outlets available that one that produces red mana could stand to be in a different deck. Think I'll have to give it a shot some time.
Chrome Mox is definitely worth it, though I'll have to give my impressions some time of Koth.
I have the tendency to only cast mogg alarm for its alternative cost, so with that in mind devastating summons is par for the course. Only sacrificing one land for two tokens is a good deal in my book.
I should try Koth again. I have a tendency to only have a couple of mountains when I draw him, I may need to dial back how comfortable I am throwing away mountains.
My god am I tired of Panic/Chaotic Strike/Aleatory. Hopefully we get a red cantrip in Oath of the Gatewatch.
We have seen some great cards to play with the graveyard recently, but I agree that the best card to print for us would be a 1-2 CMC cantrip that targets. I really don't care what else it does. For now, I view the slow cantrips as a necessary cost, but they sure are dissatisfying.
Would Burn At the Stake be worth considering? You are making many tokens to tap with it.
Also if you get a lot of goblins down from krenko or goblinslide you could consider Brightstone ritual
A creature to possibly help as a win con could be hellrider
While burn at the stake does capitalize on a large number of tokens, it doesn't synergize with the other win conditions. The sorcery itself deals the damage, so there is not overlap with overblaze, and it doesn't check creature power so there's no overlap with increased pumping creatures. It's also a 5 mana sorcery. I have been blown out by burn at the stake, but it's not for this deck.
Brightstone ritual is a good ritual. I sometimes wish that is counted more than just goblins, but it frequently pulls its weight here.
Hellrider is an interesting option, but the only case that I can think of where it would push through and something else wouldn't were is the defending player had more toughness than we have power and ivory mask effect to keep from being shot in the head by goblins or thopters.
Fog and its various cousins I can get around with the direct-damage creatures when I have instances of Overblaze. I hadn't thought about Deflecting Palm but that's a good one, too. I know one of my friends runs Safe Passage, though, which would prevent both combat and direct damage. That's the main thing Flaring Pain is for, but I've had Comeuppance used against me, too.
Edit: I should also mention that I'll likely put Command Beacon in and take Ally Encampment out. I usually don't have the 1 available for activating it in response to something.
My absolute favorite loss I've ever had with this deck was to Comeuppance. I was in a pod with two other strong players and a more casual player running a somewhat modified precon. I landed a turn 2 Ruby Medallion, played Zada turn 3, and then went off turn 4 thanks to a particularly lucky combination of tokens, card draw, and rituals, drawing most of my deck, and then I cast a Firestorm to take out the whole table. The stronger players began to pack up their cards, and then the newer guy looked down at his hand, looked up at me, and then almost hestitantly cast Comeuppance. It was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.
I probably won't add any card in to specifically fight against fog effects, because I can just naturally play around most of them to an extent, but Comeuppance is probably the single best card against this deck, along with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Thankfully, we can try to win before Elesh Norn actually shows up, but Comeuppance is always a hilarious thing to lose to.
What do you all think of Abbot of Keral Keep? I'm not enthusiastic about the "impulsive draw" and it's sort of a nonbo with splice effects but it's the closest we can get to Elvish Visionary and the prowess isn't irrelevant. Could be kind of win-more I guess?
I haven't actually considered Abbot of Keral Keep yet, and I don't know how the card escaped my notice for so long. I feel like it's probably a very good card in this deck. It's great with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer, and it's probably better than one of the creatures currently in the deck. It's underwhelming turn 2, but any turn after that it should be great, even if it's just getting a land off the top of your deck.
I'd rather wait until I have Scroll Rack in the deck before trying Abbot of Keral Keep so I can stack the top cards for him. But then I'd pretty much have to depend on having him in play. First Abbot is 1 card, first copy (Twinflame/Heat Shimmer) for 2 total, then the other for 4 total. Flashback one then gets 4 more for 8 total, then the other for another 8 for 16 total. So you could "re-access" cards you've put in the library and make sure you're not going to accidentally exile Overblaze or Desperate Ritual. Unless you like to gamble.
Just be aware that if you exile a land with him, playing that land counts toward the number of lands per turn you can play. So if you played a land already and plop him down and turn over a land, you're SOL.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
Stone Calendar is only your spells. That said, I still wouldn't play it. I think the only other 5 drop I would consider would be kiki-jiki.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
So now it seems I'll have to approach this deck differently, with some protection for her. Command Beacon seems like it might be handy. Considering Pyroblast and Red Elemental blast as well.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Currently running:
BRG Xira Arien BRG
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon UR
WUG Jenara, Asura of War WUG
WRG Mayael the Anima WRG
WB Triad of Fates WB
BG Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots BR
WR Aurelia the Warleader WR
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
I'll be trying to updated the posted decklist this week, I've made some longstanding test changes that should be included.
That was absolutely awesome. I like the strategy of stacking scry with single effect cantrips as a way to choose what is drawn. It won't always be relevant (3 cantrips in your hand), but it's a line of play that may not otherwise be considered.
I like the idea of shimmer myr with elixir, and that would allow the deck to truly go infinite, while also preventing suicide by cantrip. I'm still somewhat undecided over the inclusion of the option for infinite combo here. That's part of why dualcaster mage isn't in this deck; it makes the other numbers seem less impressive by comparison, which is a very subjective thing for me to say in the first place. I do agree that it is the less obvious combo by comparison to dualcaster mage combos, and doesn't actual go infinite by itself, rather being a feedback of the original combo.
If we ignore my opinion and just consider the cards in question, lets look at shimmer myr first. Artifacts having flash better facilitates trying to go off during a combat step. Re-enabling otherwise awesome-but-dead draws (in that situation) such as scroll rack or helm of awakening would be beneficial. The myr also being a creature somewhat mitigates the cost. If you have been forced to go for it due to chaotic strike, then shimmer myr may be a good inclusion. I could see it replacing a different 3 drop creature.
With that inclusion, the easiest swap to fit in elixir of immortality would probably be firestorm. Accounting for treasonous ogre (which you would have access to if decking is a concern), then the two are comparable in mana cost, and the original intent for firestorm was to win with a lethal cantrip still on the stack.
Other impacts from shimmer myr's potential inclusion may be a reconsideration of sculpting steel as another draw effect or cost reducer. Additionally, a build focused on going off during combat may include cards like dragonrage.
Overall, I could see building either way. It would most likely be personal preference in methods to survive an empty library, and flexibility in timing to go off in combat. I may go the elixir route to remove my easy button.
The closest comparison that can be made to flameshadow conjuring is possibility storm. At 5 mana to see the first effect from it, it tops the curve, while also needing to be on the battlefield before we start going off to reap the most reward. Obviously, it generates a good number of tokens when it works, but I'd be concerned about its mana cost.
If there were 3-5 more good red creatures that made 2+ tokens, I'd consider it. If it cost the same as goblinslide, that could also change my mind. I may revisit it if we see more creatures that would work well with it. As it stands now, I think the mana cost is slightly too high for current inclusion. I'll try testing it, but it will be in a 5 cmc slot.
Thermopod being a creature is certainly enticing in comparison to phyrexian altar, but the increased cost has kept me from making that inclusion. I have been treating the altar more along the lines of a slow ritual, and I'm not sure that I would pay 5 for the same effect. In either case, losing creatures to generate mana is not when we want to be, but it can work well to bridge the gap into a more sustainable, or larger mana source. Sacrificing is worth inclusion as a ritual, but the higher cost effects should be considered carefully.
I like the idea of iron myr, and it was in my original pile of 150 cards along with sisters of the flame. Neither made the final cut for me. Now that I'm looking at reducing land count to 33 or so, iron myr may replace a land. I'd be willing to test that change.
I am curious to know the results of your testing with zap. I'd been concerned by the potential loss of creatures, but the immediate card draw is enticing.
Scry is excellent draw-fixing for Zada decks, but I'm somewhat hesitant to include cards exclusively for their scry effect. The two I currently run check boxes for other categories as well, specifically pump and creature(s).
Riddle of lightning has the potential to basically stack our deck, but can't draw any cards by itself. If the revealed card went to our hand, this would be an entirely different card. However, at 5 mana, with no draw attached to it, I don't think that this makes the cut.
Spite of Mogis is an interesting suggestion, but I think it is a bit too corner case. It's a good way to set up for the storm turn, but by then we may have already cast krenkos command or hordling outburst, which would backfire on us. I don't think it would be a safe inclusion here.
Eternal Warrior is rather brilliant with seize the day, but I don't currently run seize. I don't know if I could find 2 slots for this, but if someone out there is already playing with angel's trumpet, they should probably consider eternal warrior. If eternal warrior were a one-shot instant or sorcery, I would probably more strongly consider the inclusion of those two cards.
Stone Calendar has done work for me in other decks, but I don't think that I would be willing to pay more than 3 mana for cost reduction. Which does remind me that I need to test cloud key.
Soul's fire doesn't actually work that well with Zada, as it should be targeting a creature or player other that Zada to work, which invalidates Zada's triggered ability. The closest we can get to a multiple use sould's fire is spikeshot elder, at a similar mana cost. I've been testing that on an off, and haven't been completely convinced yet.
I play Zada infrequently enough (only one of 32 decks) that I haven't seen this much focused disruption, so you're seeing difficulties that I have not yet encountered. I don't think that I've had Zada cost more than 6 except once or twice.
If you're seeing that many counterspells, have you considered cavern of souls in addition to the two red blasts? The goblin package is perhaps big enough to support it, and even outside of that it still produces 1. Command beacon also sounds like a reasonable response. As I've said before, I try to avoid lands that don't produce R, but your groups may necessitate it.
If there were monored creatures along the lines of vexing shusher, that would be more ideal. I don't really have a lot of suggestions. The deck is never going to be "top tier" just by the overall strategy being so heavily built on Zadas presence and the need for additional tokens. It's rather straightforward to disrupt us when an opponent knows what they're looking at.
That's not to say the deck can't perform, more a complaint that there aren't more ways that I can see to allow Zada to push through such an environment. Sorry I haven't been more helpful.
Seething Anger and Haze of Rage are both good pump spells if nothing else. Of the two, I would suggest looking at haze of rage first, as it doesn't take much for the storm copies to break even with seething anger. Additionally, by having a large portion of its total buyback (3R for both spells in question) in the casting cost instead of the buyback, haze of rage will interact better with cost reduction effects.
I would swap out fists of the anvil before brute force, as brute force interacts well with spawning breath and the potential inclusion zap.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I run a Cavern in my Norin deck (plenty of goblins there, too), but I think I only have the one. I might have to switch it and try that out.
Zap hasn't done so well just yet. It sucks a lot when you haven't been able to make creatures in the double-digits and it's the only cantrip you've come across. The only things that'll save my creatures if I use it and let all copies resolve is Titan's Strength, Brute Force, and possibly Strange Inversion (which has to be handled carefully, doing at least one of the first two before doing it again). I'll probably try it again soon, but I tend to dislike Balduvian Rage just as much as a cantrip because it says target attacking creature.
So far I'm looking at possibly Goblin Chirurgeon, Boots, Pyroblast, Beacon going in. Haven't started looking at slots for them, yet. I'll likely have to reduce my pump spell count to fit protection in.
I had already swapped out Fists for Uncanny Speed for the haste-enabling.
Edit: Regarding Iron Myr, testing will continue at some point. It's inclusion is about enabling that marginal edge in creatures and mana to help get the deck off the ground, at which point it isn't but a body.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I also don't have 32 decks [yet].
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
1)Just try to combo out as early as possible, or
2)Try to go off all in the same turn as I cast Zada.
Option 2 can be pretty fun. I've won games where I resolved Zada, my opponents immediately responded with spot removal, and I won the game by making use of Zada while the removal spell was on the stack, casting rituals and cantrips until I didn't care if Zada was on the field or not. Additionally, it's possible to play Zada as some weird value tokens deck, not trying to go off, and just grabbing a few cards here and there until you're able to go off.
It's also just important to know when to try to go off, and when it's better to bait a wrath or just bide your time until you find an opening. It can be tough, but it's very doable.
Some cards that help against disruption that I've enjoyed using--
Goblin Chiurgeon is an absolute lifesaver. It's almost always what I tutor for with Goblin Matron, unless I'm trying to win that turn with Skirk Prospector, as it makes tapping out for Zada a much less stressful situation.
Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon don't directly protect against disruption, but they can paralyze your opponents for long enough that you can combo out while they're trying to get their mana together.
Defense Grid is just fantastic for keeping your turn safe from disruption. I haven't tested it in this deck specifically, but Mana Web might be a similarly good card for us.
Final Fortune might not look like a great card for fighting against disruption, but sometimes, you've just got to go for it when an opening, however small, opens up. It's an instant, so I've occasionally used it at the end of an opponent's turn after they've tapped out, before another person can try to disrupt me. Most of the time it just buys me that one extra turn I need to win, but it can be used to fight against hate as well. It's also worth noting that Final Fortune works well with the 'slow cantrips' this deck runs, because you'll draw all those cards on your extra turn and not have to discard down the turn you cast Final Fortune.
On the subject of Elixir of Immortality--has running out of cards really been a problem for people? Generally, when I'm going off, I can control how many cards I'm drawing fairly well. I have to be careful and not just rampantly cast cantrips once my field begins getting particularly big, but by that time I'm generally able to just cast a couple pump spells and kill the table. If you're in danger of drawing your deck, that means you have a massive field and a massive hand, and you should be able to win via Fiery Gambit/Firestorm if you need noncombat damage, or just attacking normally if not. If neither will work for some reason, you probably shouldn't be trying to go off in the first place anyways.
With all that said, I really can't imagine it's worth it to take up two slots in the deck for cards that don't synergize with the deck at all unless the deck is already going off. Zada has to run a lot of conditional spells as it is, I'm not sure I'm interested in running cards that are even more conditional than usual. Firestorm is already my 'only good when I'm about to win' card, I don't really want more.
I knew cost reduction applied to buyback. I'm not sure what I was thinking yesterday. Thank you for correcting me.
I want to like zap, but it seems too high a cost in most situations, even here. I've wished that toughness boosting pump was in reds color pie, but it's few and far between.
Iron myr being nothing more than another creature to radiate to is a large enough boon to be worth considering. I'm rather sure that I would play a colorshifted dryad arbor in Zada, so most similar creatures deserve at least consideration.
I've considered the numbers, and I'm wondering what you're looking at dropping for your protection package. I'm assuming the slower cantrips, some pump spells and some arcane spells.
I think that all of these card suggestions are solid, if metagame dependent. I know you run low numbers of pump/arcane to make the space for it, so it's unlikely I'd be able to run that many of them, but other playgroups would require a way to weather disruption.
It's good to hear that Final Fortune worked out for you, I may try that myself. I play it to good effect in my Krenko deck, but I hadn't tested here yet.
Going off the turn Zada comes down is fun to do, or at least attempt. I don't normally go that route, but it makes sense when Zada is drawing more removal than I've seen. Krenko, mob boss and young pyromancer draw removal more often than Zada does for me. I've only been in a situation once where I succeeded in going off the same turn, with removal on the stack. It really is satisfying.
The shimmer myr + elixir of immortality combo is, as you describe, win-more. It's fun to consider, but you're most likely correct that the parts don't do enough except after already going off. I'll still test it, but it's less likely to make a final cut.
I'll try to update the first post and edit this post with changelist tonight.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Pretty much:
I haven't tried slotting in Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Command Beacon, or Swiftfoot Boots. Mostly because my unfortunate experience last time was facing two control-ish decks in a 3-player game. So I'm trying not to overreact and see if this is enough.
Dragonrage and Final Fortune are still set aside for testing at some point.
Here's my current version I'll be playing with:
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Removed:
Added:
I'm really looking forward to testing goblin dark-dwellers. There are just so many ways that these can pay off, while adding a creature to the count. It's like Mizzix's mastery all over again.
I'm not sold on Chandra, Flamecaller, but then I don't play any wheel effects. I do like her synergy here and she may see testing for me.
I look forward to exactly these cast chains, it should be great.
It's somewhat entertaining that we've made rather similar cuts, but gone in slightly different directions. It's always interesting to learn other ways similar decks get played. Fury charm is an intriguing multipurpose inclusion.
I've somewhat resisted going as deep into a goblin package as some posters have because I already have a Krenko deck.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Chrome Mox is definitely worth it, though I'll have to give my impressions some time of Koth.
Here's the list I'm currently using:
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Iron Myr
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Young Pyromancer
3 Goblin Matron
3 Priest of Urabrask
4 Beetleback Chief
4 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Zada, Hedron Grinder
5 Emrakul's Hatcher
5 Siege-Gang Commander
Instant (25)
1 Brightstone Ritual
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Firestorm
1 Into the Fray
1 Panic
1 Rouse the Mob
1 Titan's Strength
1 Unnatural Speed
2 Accelerate
2 Aleatory
2 Battle Hymn
2 Blazing Shoal
2 Chaotic Strike
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Flaring Pain
2 Fury Charm
2 Spawning Breath
2 Stun
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Uncanny Speed
3 Boiling Blood
3 Fatal Frenzy
3 Path of Anger's Flame
3 Strange Inversion
4 Overblaze
1 Gamble
1 Reckless Charge
1 Tempt with Vengeance
2 Dragon Fodder
2 Krenko's Command
2 Twinflame
3 Fiery Gambit
3 Heat Shimmer
3 Hordeling Outburst
3 Mogg Alarm
3 Molten Birth
3 Traitorous Blood
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Inner Fire
4 Mizzix's Mastery
4 Past in Flames
4 Portent of Betrayal
5 Goblin Rally
5 Mana Geyser
Artifact (5)
0 Lotus Bloom
0 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
2 Helm of Awakening
2 Ruby Medallion
3 Goblinslide
Planeswalker (1)
4 Koth of the Hammer
Land (35)
1 Ally Encampment
1 Cavern of Souls
33 Mountain
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Brightstone Ritual is already in there, you know.
Hellrider is a bit expensive at 4 mana, which competes with casting Zada instead. And with the buffing, doubling, and trample involved in this deck, the damage he'll deal to each player is a fraction of what the creatures could deal. He's not terrible, and some might consider it for a variant that doesn't aim for millions of damage. I think he'd fit better in a Krenko deck that just focuses on tokens, rather than Zada where the focus in on the instants and sorceries that get radiated to our creatures.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I have the tendency to only cast mogg alarm for its alternative cost, so with that in mind devastating summons is par for the course. Only sacrificing one land for two tokens is a good deal in my book.
I like your list. Which prevention is flaring pain metagaming against; fog(stop us) or deflecting palm (kills us)?
I should try Koth again. I have a tendency to only have a couple of mountains when I draw him, I may need to dial back how comfortable I am throwing away mountains.
We have seen some great cards to play with the graveyard recently, but I agree that the best card to print for us would be a 1-2 CMC cantrip that targets. I really don't care what else it does. For now, I view the slow cantrips as a necessary cost, but they sure are dissatisfying.
While burn at the stake does capitalize on a large number of tokens, it doesn't synergize with the other win conditions. The sorcery itself deals the damage, so there is not overlap with overblaze, and it doesn't check creature power so there's no overlap with increased pumping creatures. It's also a 5 mana sorcery. I have been blown out by burn at the stake, but it's not for this deck.
Brightstone ritual is a good ritual. I sometimes wish that is counted more than just goblins, but it frequently pulls its weight here.
Hellrider is an interesting option, but the only case that I can think of where it would push through and something else wouldn't were is the defending player had more toughness than we have power and ivory mask effect to keep from being shot in the head by goblins or thopters.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Edit: I should also mention that I'll likely put Command Beacon in and take Ally Encampment out. I usually don't have the 1 available for activating it in response to something.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I probably won't add any card in to specifically fight against fog effects, because I can just naturally play around most of them to an extent, but Comeuppance is probably the single best card against this deck, along with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Thankfully, we can try to win before Elesh Norn actually shows up, but Comeuppance is always a hilarious thing to lose to.
What do you all think of Abbot of Keral Keep? I'm not enthusiastic about the "impulsive draw" and it's sort of a nonbo with splice effects but it's the closest we can get to Elvish Visionary and the prowess isn't irrelevant. Could be kind of win-more I guess?
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Just be aware that if you exile a land with him, playing that land counts toward the number of lands per turn you can play. So if you played a land already and plop him down and turn over a land, you're SOL.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko