I'm not able to put my deck into the spreadsheet just yet, but when I get home I will. Thanks for making it, though!
As for Devastating Summons, it's something I had considered, but I haven't found that I'm that desperate for token producers that I'd be willing to play one that actively sets me back on mana. It's good on the turn you're going off, but bad for building up to a critical turn, which is the same reason I'm not a huge fan of Thatcher Revolt. As for Elemental mastery, unless it's on Zada, it's going to make only 1 or 2 1/1s for the most part, unless I've cast a pump spell. Pact of the Titan I'm not a fan of, since it only increases our creature count by 1, and again, if we're not going off that turn, it doesn't do much.
I think I'm going to pick up a copy of Zap and test it out. It seems bad, but it could surprise me.
I'm not able to put my deck into the spreadsheet just yet, but when I get home I will. Thanks for making it, though!
As for Devastating Summons, it's something I had considered, but I haven't found that I'm that desperate for token producers that I'd be willing to play one that actively sets me back on mana. It's good on the turn you're going off, but bad for building up to a critical turn, which is the same reason I'm not a huge fan of Thatcher Revolt. As for Elemental mastery, unless it's on Zada, it's going to make only 1 or 2 1/1s for the most part, unless I've cast a pump spell. Pact of the Titan I'm not a fan of, since it only increases our creature count by 1, and again, if we're not going off that turn, it doesn't do much.
I think I'm going to pick up a copy of Zap and test it out. It seems bad, but it could surprise me.
I hope the calculator is helpful. It definitely made me more aware of what thresholds to keep in mind when I'm wondering if it's time to go yet. It also has me reevaluating my mana curve, as nearly very catigory had average CMC of 2.5 to 3, and I wanted to lower that.
I agree that nearly all of those cards are bad in the turns preparing for Zada to come down. I think the only one that I'll actually test is devastating summons. I seem to sacrifice most of my lands on a good day between mogg alarm and downhill charge, so adding one more shouldn't be that bad. The low cost is also enticing.
I'm interested in what you find in the testing of zap. I couldn't bring myself to do it.
The other truly funny thing about Zada in Boros, is that a Path to Exile and the natural Boros ability to make creatures turns into a hilarious one time massive ramp spell.
If you wanted to play probably the dumbest thing you could do in Mono red is Kormus BellUrborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to increase the number of targets for a
bunch of spells through the roof. Has hilarious consequences to some of the spells but what is red without a little risk.
The idea on your Wort to animate lands for use with Zada is awesome. That said, green is the color that's good at animating lands, so the options there are a lot more playable.
I already play that Urborg-Bell combo in a significantly less amusing deck (Linvala, keeper of silence), and based on that I am concerned about opportunity cost. Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth has the downside on not producing R, but only consumes a land slot. If this was the only inclusion, I wouldn't see much of a problem. Kormus bell, on the other hand doesn't do anything by itself. The reason I brought up Linvala is that I've included both cards with the only tutor being weathered wayfarer, and I've never successfully brought all three pieces together. I play the same number of tutors in Zada, but only need 2 cards. Considering the quantity of draw in Zada, the deck is significantly more likely to assemble the two pieces, but I would need a land drop for the turn. That makes it less likely to get this online as I'm going off, which is when I'm drawing a lot of cards. I'll keep considering it, but probably not test it yet.
Regarding multicolor Zada lists, I've come to the conclusion that I'd be better off looking at ink-treader nephilim. That deck would be able to play 80% of the good cantrips, Spiritual Visit and reasonably good arcane spells, and all the good low cost token sources. Larger issues would be color fixing (mycosynth lattice) and talking a playgroup into it. Main losses would be the hilarity of mono red storm, and being more vulnerable to removal. This is, of course, assuming that the math behind the deck would stay the same instead of a different approach, like you did with Wort. Once I thought of the nephilim, it seemed like the logical choice, but it was too easy of a build to really get me interested.
Kormus Bell + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth was something I was seriously considering. However, with all your lands essentially 1/1, so many spells will leave you landless that my eyes spin. Even an overloard Electrickery will clear your field clean of land.
I'm really not that concerned by the risk here. While the entire deck would fall flat for two mana, this has basically always been true. I'm more worried about keeping the gears turning and the machine working than the risk.
My mental image as I pilot the deck is like trying to assemble a railgun on the moon out of scrap. I'm more worried about making it work than how it breaks if somebody leans on it. That's just my take though.
Ink-Treader Nephilim has served me well as a splice-shenanigans commander, in addition to Spiritual Visit you also get Kodama's Reach and Evermind, which are both great. I think I'm going to put together a Zada list like yours for tournaments as a "sideboard" to my current casual Zada list, which is a tad more creature-heavy and plays things like Rapacious One and Charmbreaker Devils that are unnecessary here. Hopefully there are more good red canrips soon, in goldfishing this deck I was often frustrated when left with Chaotic Strike as my only cantrip and couldn't continue going off.
It is the most irritating thing in the world when you're playing Zada and you're left with Panic, Aleatory, Chaotic Strike, or Balduvian Rage as your cantrips of choice and can't keep going off. Although I've made chaotic strike work a few times, just relying on either Spikeshot Elder or Firestorm to take the game for me out of combat.
The Kormus Bell/Urborg combo isn't something I'm personally that interested in, given that neither piece of the combo does anything by itself in the deck, and even when the combo is assembled, we still need a cantrip to do anything. I'd rather play another token producer instead of the Kormus Bell itself.
I got to jam a few games today with Zada, though I fear I'm beginning to incur the ire of my playgroup with the deck. It's really impressive how consistently Zada can win out of an unimpressive board state--I had a game where I led with a Skullclamp turn 1, and then didn't have another play until a Molten Birth turn 3 that didn't return to my hand and then I cast a Goblin Matron fetching a Skirk Prospector turn 4, the next turn I cast a Zada and a 1-drop turn 5, and then on turn 6 I cast a Mana Geyser, refilled my hand with a Reforge the Soul, and proceeded to storm out that turn, finishing the table with a Firestorm for 40. I'm really enjoying playing it, as the possibility that the deck might fall on its face at any given time makes attempting to 'go all in' way more exciting than your average combo deck.
A specific new card I'm now testing is Final Fortune. Sometimes I really do just need that one more turn in order to actually win with the deck. It also works well with the slow cantrips of the deck, allowing me to cast them, and then cast Final Fortune so that i get all the cards before my opponents can start playing their turns again. The downside of the card isn't super relevant, because generally if I fail to go off I tend to not win that game anyways, as my opponents are then on their guard and make sure Zada does not stay on the field at all. I never managed to actually draw it in the games I played, but it seems solid in theory. My biggest concern with the card is that it's only good if you're going off already, and it won't actually help you set up except to give you a turn to actually go off. I'll report how the card performs for me after I get to play some games where I actually draw it.
edit: Accidentally said Mana Echoes instead of Mana Geyser.
I am confused by this statement in the original post
"Pyromancer in particular quickly gets out of hand once twinflame has been cast a couple of times."
How is twinflame being cast multiple times? Even if you target your commander copies go on the stack, not cast, so young pyro only triggers once. Even with flash back from somethign like past in flames etc you're only getting 1-3 cast out of this thing. and 3 1/1s doesn't seem like that much.
Ink-Treader Nephilim has served me well as a splice-shenanigans commander, in addition to Spiritual Visit you also get Kodama's Reach and Evermind, which are both great. I think I'm going to put together a Zada list like yours for tournaments as a "sideboard" to my current casual Zada list, which is a tad more creature-heavy and plays things like Rapacious One and Charmbreaker Devils that are unnecessary here. Hopefully there are more good red canrips soon, in goldfishing this deck I was often frustrated when left with Chaotic Strike as my only cantrip and couldn't continue going off.
I would be delighted by more red cantrips. I will have to defend chaotic strike, as it at least lets you draw the same turn (unlike someothercards). After getting stuck a couple of times with no untapped lands, 12 mana floating, and only chaotic strike to draw with, I've started trying to go off during the combat step. This is, of course, if my board state looks secure enough. In recent memory, I drew into a chaotic strike while attacking with Zada, 4 thopters(heat shimmer), pia and kiran nalaar and a 4 goblin tokens. That chaotic strike drew into desperate ritual and balduvian rage, allowing me to have each thopter hit for ~27 with double strike.
Thanks for your input on ink-treader, I may try a mirror deck to Zada based on that at some point. There are a lot more playable cards, but colorfixing is nightmarish.
It is the most irritating thing in the world when you're playing Zada and you're left with Panic, Aleatory, Chaotic Strike, or Balduvian Rage as your cantrips of choice and can't keep going off. Although I've made chaotic strike work a few times, just relying on either Spikeshot Elder or Firestorm to take the game for me out of combat.
The Kormus Bell/Urborg combo isn't something I'm personally that interested in, given that neither piece of the combo does anything by itself in the deck, and even when the combo is assembled, we still need a cantrip to do anything. I'd rather play another token producer instead of the Kormus Bell itself.
I got to jam a few games today with Zada, though I fear I'm beginning to incur the ire of my playgroup with the deck. It's really impressive how consistently Zada can win out of an unimpressive board state--I had a game where I led with a Skullclamp turn 1, and then didn't have another play until a Molten Birth turn 3 that didn't return to my hand and then I cast a Goblin Matron fetching a Skirk Prospector turn 4, the next turn I cast a Zada and a 1-drop turn 5, and then on turn 6 I cast a Mana Geyser, refilled my hand with a Reforge the Soul, and proceeded to storm out that turn, finishing the table with a Firestorm for 40. I'm really enjoying playing it, as the possibility that the deck might fall on its face at any given time makes attempting to 'go all in' way more exciting than your average combo deck.
A specific new card I'm now testing is Final Fortune. Sometimes I really do just need that one more turn in order to actually win with the deck. It also works well with the slow cantrips of the deck, allowing me to cast them, and then cast Final Fortune so that i get all the cards before my opponents can start playing their turns again. The downside of the card isn't super relevant, because generally if I fail to go off I tend to not win that game anyways, as my opponents are then on their guard and make sure Zada does not stay on the field at all. I never managed to actually draw it in the games I played, but it seems solid in theory. My biggest concern with the card is that it's only good if you're going off already, and it won't actually help you set up except to give you a turn to actually go off. I'll report how the card performs for me after I get to play some games where I actually draw it.
edit: Accidentally said Mana Echoes instead of Mana Geyser.
I'm in agreement about kormus bell, and wish that animating was in red's slice of the color pie. That would be fun.
I seem to end up frequently having 1-4 life (treasonous ogre), no lands (casting and flashing back mogg alarm), 24 mana floating in a main phase, and drawing into panic. This is not desireable, so to try reducing the odds of this I've started trying to go off after declaring attackers. This has its own set of difficulties, but most of my non-creature cards are instants. I've been able to make my attack lethal (10 creatures each hitting for 3500 one time), or win with firestorm if I run out of mana. I'll only go for this if I have 7+ creatures. I got lucky once when I did with 5, one of which was young pyromancer.
I haven't had the same playgroup response, and it's partially due to how frequently I play Zada. I bring 32 decks with me to our weekly EDH meetup, and typically only play Zada once/meeting. I typically select what deck I play at random, to keep games interesting in a somewhat small group. Unfortunately, that means I only get to really test everything once a week, which is woefully low. From my playgroup's perspective, I spend one game where either the game ends or I'm dead in the first 20 minutes. I'd like to play Zada more, but I'm satisfied with laughing like a madman once a week. If I had more time, I'd test online. For now, I goldfish maybe a couple times a day, to keep trying to find strategies/timing.
I also think that the "feel" of the deck as a series of calculated risks and tense moments makes it completely different from any other combo-style deck that I've played. It's really satisfying when it works, even when I'm just goldfishing it.
I hadn't considered final fortune, that's an interesting option. I had thought of using seize the day in a similar manner, allowing card draw from spells like chaotic strike, then another combat to keep going off. I've been thinking about swapping portent of betrayal to seize the day for that reason. I'm curious to know what you find out on fortune.
Your story has me reconsidering mana geyser again, and taking a serious look at skullclamp. Any thoughts on anarchist?
Mana Geyser will net you at least 3-10 mana. It also scales really well against ramp decks.
Mana Geyser has been finding its way in and out of my decklist a couple times in the past month. Originally it was included, then swapped for treasonous ogre. More recently I swapped possibility storm out for it, then swapped to siege-gang commander alongside goblin rally. Of all the rituals available, it has the highest likelihood (in my opinion) to produce less mana than it costs. Inner fire is similar in this respect, but is at least a resource I have control over. Mana Geyser deserves mention, but I'm a undecided about definitive inclusion. Right now I'm looking for space again.
I am confused by this statement in the original post
"Pyromancer in particular quickly gets out of hand once twinflame has been cast a couple of times."
How is twinflame being cast multiple times? Even if you target your commander copies go on the stack, not cast, so young pyro only triggers once. Even with flash back from somethign like past in flames etc you're only getting 1-3 cast out of this thing. and 3 1/1s doesn't seem like that much.
You're right about flashing back twinflame/heat shimmer, using past in flames or recoup. I think that you're looking at the wrong source of creatures. The creatures that are copied includesyoung pyromancer, meaning that after the first one resolves, there are 2 pyromancers on the battlefield. Casting either copying spell again causes both to trigger to make elementals, then creates another 2 pyromancers. For the rest of the turn, each of your spells creates 4 elementals. Follow all this up by flashing back the ritual that probably produced the mana to do this in the first place, and you have another 4 elementals and at least 20xR. I hope you agree with me that this is awesome.
If you're looking for cuts for Mana Geyser, and assuming the list in the OP is current, I'd suggest Inner Fire as a possible cut. I ended up cutting it because it was really only good when I was already going off. Mana Geyser has the unique distinction of being able to provide a ton of mana even if the deck hasn't been able to do much else up until that point. I've won games where I untapped with an empty board save for four lands, and I played a mountain, cast Mana Gesyer for around 10/12 mana, and then proceeded to win the game. It can theoretically fail, but unless you're playing in a meta full of draw-go control, on turns 4/5 your opponents will probably be tapping out to build up their board positions. At least, that's been my experience with the card. Inner Fire just disappointed me, and was generally underwhelming unless I'd already cast a couple cantrips. Alternatively, I've never been fond of Goblin Rally, if you want to keep the number of rituals higher.
I agree with you that goldfishing the deck is important. The deck plays a lot of cards when it's going off, and it's important to be able to perform all the necessary actions quickly, or your playgroup is going to get annoyed.
A couple things I think we could all benefit from discussing--
1. What, in your experience, has been the critical turn for the deck? For me, it's turn 5/6, usually. I've won as early as turn 4 before--generally, Sol Ring, Helm of Awakening, Ruby Medallion, and Treasonous Ogre are the cards that let me attempt this--but in general, it's turn 5 on a good draw and turn 6 on a slow draw for me. If I can't attempt to go off by then, either I've encountered a lot of disruption or I just kept a terrible hand.
2. The correct number of lands for the deck to run. I guess this is one of those things that is going to vary based on one's playgroup--what type of mulligan you use can inform your land count--but I figure it's good to discuss how many lands the deck can/should run. I'm at 35 currently, I think. I've seen lists with as little as 30 lands, which seems too little for me, but there is also the reality that, when the deck is going off, every land the deck draws is an actual dud. I'm pretty conservative with my land count in every format I play, so I figure I could very well be acting too cautious.
Normally I try to avoid double posting, but I have to talk about Mizzik's Mastery, because that card is so insane.
I don't run Recoup, personally, because most of the cards I'd want to flashback are instants anyways. But this card, this card is a monster. I'd run this card even without the overload, because being able to rebuy a cantrip or ritual is super relevant, but with the overload, it's truly insane. Getting to 8 mana isn't hard when the deck is going off, and then this card has the potential to be even more broken then Past in Flames, because it can cast all of the spells in our graveyard for free, and then winning after that point is a trivial affair. This card is absolutely nuts.
Having seen this Zada deck up close and personal few times and seeing it completely obliterate whole tables WITHOUT casting Past in Flames, the spoiling of Mizzik's Mastery immediately made me think, "oh dear god no..."...
If you're looking for cuts for Mana Geyser, and assuming the list in the OP is current, I'd suggest Inner Fire as a possible cut. I ended up cutting it because it was really only good when I was already going off. Mana Geyser has the unique distinction of being able to provide a ton of mana even if the deck hasn't been able to do much else up until that point. I've won games where I untapped with an empty board save for four lands, and I played a mountain, cast Mana Gesyer for around 10/12 mana, and then proceeded to win the game. It can theoretically fail, but unless you're playing in a meta full of draw-go control, on turns 4/5 your opponents will probably be tapping out to build up their board positions. At least, that's been my experience with the card. Inner Fire just disappointed me, and was generally underwhelming unless I'd already cast a couple cantrips. Alternatively, I've never been fond of Goblin Rally, if you want to keep the number of rituals higher.
I agree with you that goldfishing the deck is important. The deck plays a lot of cards when it's going off, and it's important to be able to perform all the necessary actions quickly, or your playgroup is going to get annoyed.
A couple things I think we could all benefit from discussing--
1. What, in your experience, has been the critical turn for the deck? For me, it's turn 5/6, usually. I've won as early as turn 4 before--generally, Sol Ring, Helm of Awakening, Ruby Medallion, and Treasonous Ogre are the cards that let me attempt this--but in general, it's turn 5 on a good draw and turn 6 on a slow draw for me. If I can't attempt to go off by then, either I've encountered a lot of disruption or I just kept a terrible hand.
2. The correct number of lands for the deck to run. I guess this is one of those things that is going to vary based on one's playgroup--what type of mulligan you use can inform your land count--but I figure it's good to discuss how many lands the deck can/should run. I'm at 35 currently, I think. I've seen lists with as little as 30 lands, which seems too little for me, but there is also the reality that, when the deck is going off, every land the deck draws is an actual dud. I'm pretty conservative with my land count in every format I play, so I figure I could very well be acting too cautious.
Sorry about the delayed response. I think that goblin rally is the right cut for mana geyser for my list, and I'm testing that now. The required category that I run the least of is rituals, and I think that more are needed. I'd been holding off on cutting goblin rally for flashback/young pyromancer synergies, and specifically goblinsynergies. That said, I may lean towards swapping emrakul's hatcher instead, for no reason at all.
As to your discussion topics:
I'd say my critical turn is turn 5-7. I've done a turn 4 successfully, but there's just so much setup required. I was asked by my playgroup what a godhand/perfect storm could happen on, and it might be turn three, but that's playing very risky games with young pyromancer and gambling for a good draw. I think that I go off 40% turn 5, 45% turn 6. I really should be tracking that.
The land count is somewhat layered in my opinion. First, I've been using the vancouver mulligans without shuffle, as I anticipate that this is most likely the direction the format is headed. It also makes a lot of sense to me. Full disclosure: my playgroup is still doing partial paris+first free. Second is that I'm pretty much willing to mulligan down to 4 in order to keep a hand with a cantrip in it. In order to achieve stability and not miss land drops we really must have the lands needed to set up; usually 4-5, sometimes 3. I have kept 1 land hands, and it seemed to backfire about 50% of the time, but I only do that rarely. I also run 35 lands, and the only nonbasic is kher keep. I might be willing to go down to 34, but no lower that that. In conclusion, given my mulligan method and what's necessary to set up, I don't think that 35 lands is being too cautious. That said, ask me again after I draw into a 12 land streak and I'll have changed my tune. Land clumps really suck here.
Normally I try to avoid double posting, but I have to talk about Mizzik's Mastery, because that card is so insane.
I don't run Recoup, personally, because most of the cards I'd want to flashback are instants anyways. But this card, this card is a monster. I'd run this card even without the overload, because being able to rebuy a cantrip or ritual is super relevant, but with the overload, it's truly insane. Getting to 8 mana isn't hard when the deck is going off, and then this card has the potential to be even more broken then Past in Flames, because it can cast all of the spells in our graveyard for free, and then winning after that point is a trivial affair. This card is absolutely nuts.
Mizzix's Mastery is busted in half for storm decks and spellslinger alike. I'm going to need 3, at least. I'm probably straight replacing recoup, but it has performed reasonably in the past. Recoup flashes back sources of tokens or one of a couple rituals. It's done serious work with twinflame and heat shimmer when I didn't have past in flames, but it's a dead card more often than I'd like. Mizzix's Mastery easily replaces it, with the loss of a built-in double use replaced by sheer insanity in overload. Did I mention the card is nuts?
I also really like the look of magus of the wheel, even though I've avoided wheel effects. Stapling it to a creature means that it's never a dead draw and will replace itself in a cantrip, which is awesome for me.
Having seen this Zada deck up close and personal few times and seeing it completely obliterate whole tables WITHOUT casting Past in Flames, the spoiling of Mizzik's Mastery immediately made me think, "oh dear god no..."...
Can't wait to see it.
I read the spoiler during lunch at work today and it took serious self control to keep from cackling like an idiot at my desk.
Okay. This deck is insane. Is it considered normal to produce over 6500 mana, 8000 creatures, and swing with 65,000,000 total power?
Overblaze was in the bottom of my library that time, but I understand why it's often part of your preferred win sequence.
I can say confidently that those numbers are completely normal.
My current maximum recorded damage in a game was 2.9 billion, and that definitely wasn't the upper limit. I'd only cast tempt with vengance once for x=100 or so, and didn't use my last krenko, mobb boss activation, so I only had 300 or so creatures.
I think their power was around 300 with 15 instances of overblaze. It's worth noting that scroll rack basically lets you stack your deck and you can use possibility storm to doublecast most spells before using flashback, and allowing access to the bottom of the deck.
I can say confidently that those numbers are completely normal.
My current maximum recorded damage in a game was 2.9 billion, and that definitely wasn't the upper limit. I'd only cast tempt with vengeance once for x=100 or so, and didn't use my last krenko, mobb boss activation, so I only had 300 or so creatures.
I think their power was around 300 with 15 instances of overblaze. It's worth noting that scroll rack basically lets you stack your deck and you can use possibility storm to doublecast most spells before using flashback, and allowing access to the bottom of the deck.
Actually, I have some other curiosities about piloting the deck.
When you go off, do you always go all out and overkill (e.g., 2.9 billion damage)? Or do you go just far enough that you know it's lethal to your opponents?
How long does that final turn typically take you to go off, from untapping to the damage step?
How do you typically deal with Strange Inversion being one of your splice enablers when you've made a bunch of Eldrazi Spawn? Just sac them for colorless mana first?
And Spawning Breath: Do you wipe a bunch of your tokens and replace them, or pump everybody up first? Or either, depending on the circumstance?
I wouldn't consider psychosis crawler for this build. While it is a good win condition in the right deck, we already have other win conditions that work well in the event that we don't completely go off. Mindmoil is a whole other animal, and if arjun, the shifting flame were monored there's a good chance that I'd play it, even at a CMC of 6.
The reasons I haven't tested mindmoil itself are twofold. The first is that the arcane spells are really only worth casting if you have one of the goodoptions in your hand. It is therefore somewhat important to keep those in your hand, which is the reason I don't run other red draw such as wheel of fortune. That's just my opinion though, as other people have played those effects in Zada to good effect. The second reason is the same as psychosis crawler, and possibility storm. These are expensive spells that don't produce creatures (our main resource) and require additional mana to continue going off. Possibility storm actually synergies better with Zada, as we get to double-up on the radiate triggers without further mana investment, and I'm currently testing cutting it. In slower and more resilient builds, all of these would be considered for inclusion.
I can say confidently that those numbers are completely normal.
My current maximum recorded damage in a game was 2.9 billion, and that definitely wasn't the upper limit. I'd only cast tempt with vengeance once for x=100 or so, and didn't use my last krenko, mobb boss activation, so I only had 300 or so creatures.
I think their power was around 300 with 15 instances of overblaze. It's worth noting that scroll rack basically lets you stack your deck and you can use possibility storm to doublecast most spells before using flashback, and allowing access to the bottom of the deck.
Actually, I have some other curiosities about piloting the deck.
When you go off, do you always go all out and overkill (e.g., 2.9 billion damage)? Or do you go just far enough that you know it's lethal to your opponents?
How long does that final turn typically take you to go off, from untapping to the damage step?
How do you typically deal with Strange Inversion being one of your splice enablers when you've made a bunch of Eldrazi Spawn? Just sac them for colorless mana first?
And Spawning Breath: Do you wipe a bunch of your tokens and replace them, or pump everybody up first? Or either, depending on the circumstance?
If I have drawn my entire deck, I'll try to win with fiery gambit or firestorm. It used to be that I went the overkill route rather consistently every opportunity I got, but for the sake of my playgroup's time I've typically just used those two cards. If those are countered or I face something difficult on the stack, then I'll go the more complex overkill route, which is more fun for me but definitely takes longer to resolve.
The 2.9 billion was the first time that I'd drawn my entire deck and I wanted to see what I could do. That took 10-15 minutes of me casting spells and my playgroup watching me. Nowadays, if I draw enough cards/have enough creatures I will use the shortcutting method of firestorm. If this doesn't happen, I think my last turn may take 5-10 minutes. This is heavily dependent on what I draw, because if I can continue drawing cards, I do. It should be less time in the long run if I draw until I can't (while not running out of resources) and cast firestorm/fiery gambit than if I go the more optimal route and make sure to always maximum my creature/mana counts. Again, I enjoy the more complex route but chose to get as fast as possible for the sake of my playgroup.
Strange inversion has not been an issue with losing creatures, be it spawn or kobolds of kher keep. I don't think that I've been in the position of needing to cast inversion without some pump spell either already cast or available to be cast. That would basically only be an issue if our only creature were emrakul's hatcher and our only mana source was desperate ritual. I don't think that this has come up in goldfishing, and I know that it hasn't happened in a game. The largest issue strange inversion has given me is a headache from calculating and tracking power when it was my only splice available for path of anger's flame. It was hard to tell if I had lethal or not.
I prefer to use spawning breath after a pump, as a ritual by effectively working as an all in ashnod's altar, or if needed just as a source of a single token. In the option to use it as a ritual, it becomes especially effective to remember that each one resolves individually, in the order that you chose. By ordering the copies that zada creates properly, you may be able to use the sudden access to colorless mana to cast something else and keep the critical creatures alive. This application is admittedly narrow, but leaving some of the spells on the stack to respond to comes up surprisingly often.
The largest issue strange inversion has given me is a headache from calculating and tracking power when it was my only splice available for path of anger's flame. It was hard to tell if I had lethal or not.
Indeed, it's ugly. But you probably did have lethal, especially if you did that early and did more power boosting later. I coded up some examples and at least there are calculable patterns to it. For those wanting to know more detail about this interaction and why it's a bloody mess, open the spoiler below.
The simplest pattern to it -- if you're getting targeting on Path with something better like Overblaze -- is that if you have X creatures your boost per creature will be a double of X squared (i.e., 2(X^2)). However, with the stepped pattern produced by using Strange Inversion you end up with an average boost per creature of half that, or just X^2. The very first creature to have it applied has the most power, and Zada (always being last) gets all those pumps and then swaps it to her toughness. So you can just assign creatures to attack opponents round-robin style and it should work out with marginal difference.
So when you cast Path of Anger's Flame and splice Strange Inversion onto it for the targeting effect, the text of the spell on the stack reads like this:
Creatures you control get +2/+0 until end of turn.
Switch target creature's power and toughness until end of turn.
So you target Zada with it and she radiates it to all your creatures. Let's say you have nine 1/1 creatures in addition to her:
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
1/1
3/3 (Zada)
You'll end up with the original targeting Zada and nine copies of the spell targeting each 1/1. The copies resolve first, so Zada is at the bottom of the list and we'll be working from the top down.
Effects happen in the order of text on the spell, so first all your creatures get +2/+0. Now you have 3/1s and a 5/3. Then that creature's power and toughness flip and he's a 1/3:
1/3
3/1
3/1
3/1
3/1
3/1
3/1
3/1
3/1
5/3 (Zada)
The next resolves, granting your critters +2/+0 and flipping P/T on the second creature:
3/3
1/5
5/1
5/1
5/1
5/1
5/1
5/1
5/1
7/3 (Zada)
After all of this is done, you're left with a state like this:
In the option to use it as a ritual, it becomes especially effective to remember that each one resolves individually, in the order that you chose. By ordering the copies that zada creates properly, you may be able to use the sudden access to colorless mana to cast something else and keep the critical creatures alive. This application is admittedly narrow, but leaving some of the spells on the stack to respond to comes up surprisingly often.
This is one of the things I need to remember while practicing and playing. I've been tempted to write a program to help keep track of stuff (especially mana and creatures), but it's possibly too complicated even without working things like this use of the stack into it.
Actually, power and toughness switching happens in the lowermost sublayer of power-and-toughness changing effects (layer 7e), so you don't need to worry about the order those spells resolve. Every effect that changes power and toughness (+x/+x or whatever) will be applied to the creature before the switch. An example from the comprehensive rules: "A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6."
First spliced Path resolves: Eight 3/1s, a 1/3, and a 5/3.
Second spliced Path resolves: Seven 5/1s, two 1/5s, and a 7/3
Third spliced Path resolves: Six 7/1s, three 1/7s, and a 9/3
etc.
when the final spliced Path resolves (targeting Zada), you'll have nine 1/21s and a 3/23. Cast the Strange Inversion in your hand to flip them back to the way they should be (two power-and-toughness switching effects will, naturally, cancel one another out), and beat some face.
Actually, power and toughness switching happens in the lowermost sublayer of power-and-toughness changing effects (layer 7e), so you don't need to worry about the order those spells resolve. Every effect that changes power and toughness (+x/+x or whatever) will be applied to the creature before the switch. An example from the comprehensive rules: "A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6."
First spliced Path resolves: Eight 3/1s, a 1/3, and a 5/3.
Second spliced Path resolves: Seven 5/1s, two 1/5s, and a 7/3
Third spliced Path resolves: Six 7/1s, three 1/7s, and a 9/3
etc.
when the final spliced Path resolves (targeting Zada), you'll have nine 1/21s and a 3/23. Cast the Strange Inversion in your hand to flip them back to the way they should be (two power-and-toughness switching effects will, naturally, cancel one another out), and beat some face.
I had not fully realized that portion of layers. Thank you for clarifying .
Is anyone playing a more creature heavy, but still arcane build? I'm curious about through the breach.
As I said earlier, I've been trying to go off during combat, which typically shuts off the ability to increase the creature count. Through the breach would change that while counting as an arcane spell for that package, and perhaps improve responses the deck has to disruption.
The downside is that I'm only playing 12 creature cards, so it doesn't just slot into my build. Is anyone playing more creatures? I'm not exactly sold on the mana cost either, 5 mana is a lot.
I have a Zada build that's more token generating than anything and it's pretty consistent. I don't have a lot of creatures per sé, but they all produce tokens when entering the battlefield. I don't think Zada is the type of general where you're gonna have a deck chocked full of creatures.
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Yeah, I can't really see Through the Breach working out either. 4/5 mana spells can be a hard sell already, and the low creature count of the deck certainly doesn't help.
I also wanted to report briefly on Mizzik's Mastery, now that I actually have it in my deck.
It's not as good as I thought it was going to be.
It's way, way, way better. Insanely better. To the point of being not even remotely fair. I played a game where I untapped on a turn with 5 lands, a sol ring, 2 goblins, and Zada, and I cast Battle Hymn and then followed it up with Mizzik's Mastery and proceeded to just end the game. We all knew the card would be good, but it really is *that* good.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I have a Zada build that's more token generating than anything and it's pretty consistent. I don't have a lot of creatures per sé, but they all produce tokens when entering the battlefield. I don't think Zada is the type of general where you're gonna have a deck chocked full of creatures.
In hindsight, most Zada decks will be more spell heavy. I was mostly wondering if it was even feasible to consider. As much as I'd like to dream of dropping mogg fanatic or spikeshot elder along with someothercreatures... it's probably win-more at best and useless at worst.
Yeah, I can't really see Through the Breach working out either. 4/5 mana spells can be a hard sell already, and the low creature count of the deck certainly doesn't help.
I also wanted to report briefly on Mizzik's Mastery, now that I actually have it in my deck.
It's not as good as I thought it was going to be.
It's way, way, way better. Insanely better. To the point of being not even remotely fair. I played a game where I untapped on a turn with 5 lands, a sol ring, 2 goblins, and Zada, and I cast Battle Hymn and then followed it up with Mizzik's Mastery and proceeded to just end the game. We all knew the card would be good, but it really is *that* good.
Mana costs/curve are really tight here, you are correct. I've been trying to fit in more/different arcane, but it just doesn't work out well. I have been testing spikeshot elder again at your recommendation, and it will most likely stay through my next update.
I haven't had a chance to play Mizzix'x Mastery in an actual game, but my testing agrees with your result. I look forward to overloading it.
As for Devastating Summons, it's something I had considered, but I haven't found that I'm that desperate for token producers that I'd be willing to play one that actively sets me back on mana. It's good on the turn you're going off, but bad for building up to a critical turn, which is the same reason I'm not a huge fan of Thatcher Revolt. As for Elemental mastery, unless it's on Zada, it's going to make only 1 or 2 1/1s for the most part, unless I've cast a pump spell. Pact of the Titan I'm not a fan of, since it only increases our creature count by 1, and again, if we're not going off that turn, it doesn't do much.
I think I'm going to pick up a copy of Zap and test it out. It seems bad, but it could surprise me.
I hope the calculator is helpful. It definitely made me more aware of what thresholds to keep in mind when I'm wondering if it's time to go yet. It also has me reevaluating my mana curve, as nearly very catigory had average CMC of 2.5 to 3, and I wanted to lower that.
I agree that nearly all of those cards are bad in the turns preparing for Zada to come down. I think the only one that I'll actually test is devastating summons. I seem to sacrifice most of my lands on a good day between mogg alarm and downhill charge, so adding one more shouldn't be that bad. The low cost is also enticing.
I'm interested in what you find in the testing of zap. I couldn't bring myself to do it.
The idea on your Wort to animate lands for use with Zada is awesome. That said, green is the color that's good at animating lands, so the options there are a lot more playable.
I already play that Urborg-Bell combo in a significantly less amusing deck (Linvala, keeper of silence), and based on that I am concerned about opportunity cost. Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth has the downside on not producing R, but only consumes a land slot. If this was the only inclusion, I wouldn't see much of a problem. Kormus bell, on the other hand doesn't do anything by itself. The reason I brought up Linvala is that I've included both cards with the only tutor being weathered wayfarer, and I've never successfully brought all three pieces together. I play the same number of tutors in Zada, but only need 2 cards. Considering the quantity of draw in Zada, the deck is significantly more likely to assemble the two pieces, but I would need a land drop for the turn. That makes it less likely to get this online as I'm going off, which is when I'm drawing a lot of cards. I'll keep considering it, but probably not test it yet.
Regarding multicolor Zada lists, I've come to the conclusion that I'd be better off looking at ink-treader nephilim. That deck would be able to play 80% of the good cantrips, Spiritual Visit and reasonably good arcane spells, and all the good low cost token sources. Larger issues would be color fixing (mycosynth lattice) and talking a playgroup into it. Main losses would be the hilarity of mono red storm, and being more vulnerable to removal. This is, of course, assuming that the math behind the deck would stay the same instead of a different approach, like you did with Wort. Once I thought of the nephilim, it seemed like the logical choice, but it was too easy of a build to really get me interested.
I'm really not that concerned by the risk here. While the entire deck would fall flat for two mana, this has basically always been true. I'm more worried about keeping the gears turning and the machine working than the risk.
My mental image as I pilot the deck is like trying to assemble a railgun on the moon out of scrap. I'm more worried about making it work than how it breaks if somebody leans on it. That's just my take though.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
The Kormus Bell/Urborg combo isn't something I'm personally that interested in, given that neither piece of the combo does anything by itself in the deck, and even when the combo is assembled, we still need a cantrip to do anything. I'd rather play another token producer instead of the Kormus Bell itself.
I got to jam a few games today with Zada, though I fear I'm beginning to incur the ire of my playgroup with the deck. It's really impressive how consistently Zada can win out of an unimpressive board state--I had a game where I led with a Skullclamp turn 1, and then didn't have another play until a Molten Birth turn 3 that didn't return to my hand and then I cast a Goblin Matron fetching a Skirk Prospector turn 4, the next turn I cast a Zada and a 1-drop turn 5, and then on turn 6 I cast a Mana Geyser, refilled my hand with a Reforge the Soul, and proceeded to storm out that turn, finishing the table with a Firestorm for 40. I'm really enjoying playing it, as the possibility that the deck might fall on its face at any given time makes attempting to 'go all in' way more exciting than your average combo deck.
A specific new card I'm now testing is Final Fortune. Sometimes I really do just need that one more turn in order to actually win with the deck. It also works well with the slow cantrips of the deck, allowing me to cast them, and then cast Final Fortune so that i get all the cards before my opponents can start playing their turns again. The downside of the card isn't super relevant, because generally if I fail to go off I tend to not win that game anyways, as my opponents are then on their guard and make sure Zada does not stay on the field at all. I never managed to actually draw it in the games I played, but it seems solid in theory. My biggest concern with the card is that it's only good if you're going off already, and it won't actually help you set up except to give you a turn to actually go off. I'll report how the card performs for me after I get to play some games where I actually draw it.
edit: Accidentally said Mana Echoes instead of Mana Geyser.
"Pyromancer in particular quickly gets out of hand once twinflame has been cast a couple of times."
How is twinflame being cast multiple times? Even if you target your commander copies go on the stack, not cast, so young pyro only triggers once. Even with flash back from somethign like past in flames etc you're only getting 1-3 cast out of this thing. and 3 1/1s doesn't seem like that much.
I would be delighted by more red cantrips. I will have to defend chaotic strike, as it at least lets you draw the same turn (unlike some other cards). After getting stuck a couple of times with no untapped lands, 12 mana floating, and only chaotic strike to draw with, I've started trying to go off during the combat step. This is, of course, if my board state looks secure enough. In recent memory, I drew into a chaotic strike while attacking with Zada, 4 thopters(heat shimmer), pia and kiran nalaar and a 4 goblin tokens. That chaotic strike drew into desperate ritual and balduvian rage, allowing me to have each thopter hit for ~27 with double strike.
Thanks for your input on ink-treader, I may try a mirror deck to Zada based on that at some point. There are a lot more playable cards, but colorfixing is nightmarish.
I'm in agreement about kormus bell, and wish that animating was in red's slice of the color pie. That would be fun.
I seem to end up frequently having 1-4 life (treasonous ogre), no lands (casting and flashing back mogg alarm), 24 mana floating in a main phase, and drawing into panic. This is not desireable, so to try reducing the odds of this I've started trying to go off after declaring attackers. This has its own set of difficulties, but most of my non-creature cards are instants. I've been able to make my attack lethal (10 creatures each hitting for 3500 one time), or win with firestorm if I run out of mana. I'll only go for this if I have 7+ creatures. I got lucky once when I did with 5, one of which was young pyromancer.
I haven't had the same playgroup response, and it's partially due to how frequently I play Zada. I bring 32 decks with me to our weekly EDH meetup, and typically only play Zada once/meeting. I typically select what deck I play at random, to keep games interesting in a somewhat small group. Unfortunately, that means I only get to really test everything once a week, which is woefully low. From my playgroup's perspective, I spend one game where either the game ends or I'm dead in the first 20 minutes. I'd like to play Zada more, but I'm satisfied with laughing like a madman once a week. If I had more time, I'd test online. For now, I goldfish maybe a couple times a day, to keep trying to find strategies/timing.
I also think that the "feel" of the deck as a series of calculated risks and tense moments makes it completely different from any other combo-style deck that I've played. It's really satisfying when it works, even when I'm just goldfishing it.
I hadn't considered final fortune, that's an interesting option. I had thought of using seize the day in a similar manner, allowing card draw from spells like chaotic strike, then another combat to keep going off. I've been thinking about swapping portent of betrayal to seize the day for that reason. I'm curious to know what you find out on fortune.
Your story has me reconsidering mana geyser again, and taking a serious look at skullclamp. Any thoughts on anarchist?
Mana Geyser has been finding its way in and out of my decklist a couple times in the past month. Originally it was included, then swapped for treasonous ogre. More recently I swapped possibility storm out for it, then swapped to siege-gang commander alongside goblin rally. Of all the rituals available, it has the highest likelihood (in my opinion) to produce less mana than it costs. Inner fire is similar in this respect, but is at least a resource I have control over. Mana Geyser deserves mention, but I'm a undecided about definitive inclusion. Right now I'm looking for space again.
You're right about flashing back twinflame/heat shimmer, using past in flames or recoup. I think that you're looking at the wrong source of creatures. The creatures that are copied includes young pyromancer, meaning that after the first one resolves, there are 2 pyromancers on the battlefield. Casting either copying spell again causes both to trigger to make elementals, then creates another 2 pyromancers. For the rest of the turn, each of your spells creates 4 elementals. Follow all this up by flashing back the ritual that probably produced the mana to do this in the first place, and you have another 4 elementals and at least 20xR. I hope you agree with me that this is awesome.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I agree with you that goldfishing the deck is important. The deck plays a lot of cards when it's going off, and it's important to be able to perform all the necessary actions quickly, or your playgroup is going to get annoyed.
A couple things I think we could all benefit from discussing--
1. What, in your experience, has been the critical turn for the deck? For me, it's turn 5/6, usually. I've won as early as turn 4 before--generally, Sol Ring, Helm of Awakening, Ruby Medallion, and Treasonous Ogre are the cards that let me attempt this--but in general, it's turn 5 on a good draw and turn 6 on a slow draw for me. If I can't attempt to go off by then, either I've encountered a lot of disruption or I just kept a terrible hand.
2. The correct number of lands for the deck to run. I guess this is one of those things that is going to vary based on one's playgroup--what type of mulligan you use can inform your land count--but I figure it's good to discuss how many lands the deck can/should run. I'm at 35 currently, I think. I've seen lists with as little as 30 lands, which seems too little for me, but there is also the reality that, when the deck is going off, every land the deck draws is an actual dud. I'm pretty conservative with my land count in every format I play, so I figure I could very well be acting too cautious.
I don't run Recoup, personally, because most of the cards I'd want to flashback are instants anyways. But this card, this card is a monster. I'd run this card even without the overload, because being able to rebuy a cantrip or ritual is super relevant, but with the overload, it's truly insane. Getting to 8 mana isn't hard when the deck is going off, and then this card has the potential to be even more broken then Past in Flames, because it can cast all of the spells in our graveyard for free, and then winning after that point is a trivial affair. This card is absolutely nuts.
Edit: and Magus of the Wheel as well, good lord.
Can't wait to see it.
Sorry about the delayed response. I think that goblin rally is the right cut for mana geyser for my list, and I'm testing that now. The required category that I run the least of is rituals, and I think that more are needed. I'd been holding off on cutting goblin rally for flashback/young pyromancer synergies, and specifically goblin synergies. That said, I may lean towards swapping emrakul's hatcher instead, for no reason at all.
As to your discussion topics:
Mizzix's Mastery is busted in half for storm decks and spellslinger alike. I'm going to need 3, at least. I'm probably straight replacing recoup, but it has performed reasonably in the past. Recoup flashes back sources of tokens or one of a couple rituals. It's done serious work with twinflame and heat shimmer when I didn't have past in flames, but it's a dead card more often than I'd like. Mizzix's Mastery easily replaces it, with the loss of a built-in double use replaced by sheer insanity in overload. Did I mention the card is nuts?
I also really like the look of magus of the wheel, even though I've avoided wheel effects. Stapling it to a creature means that it's never a dead draw and will replace itself in a cantrip, which is awesome for me.
I read the spoiler during lunch at work today and it took serious self control to keep from cackling like an idiot at my desk.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Overblaze was in the bottom of my library that time, but I understand why it's often part of your preferred win sequence.
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I can say confidently that those numbers are completely normal.
My current maximum recorded damage in a game was 2.9 billion, and that definitely wasn't the upper limit. I'd only cast tempt with vengance once for x=100 or so, and didn't use my last krenko, mobb boss activation, so I only had 300 or so creatures.
I think their power was around 300 with 15 instances of overblaze. It's worth noting that scroll rack basically lets you stack your deck and you can use possibility storm to doublecast most spells before using flashback, and allowing access to the bottom of the deck.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Actually, I have some other curiosities about piloting the deck.
When you go off, do you always go all out and overkill (e.g., 2.9 billion damage)? Or do you go just far enough that you know it's lethal to your opponents?
How long does that final turn typically take you to go off, from untapping to the damage step?
How do you typically deal with Strange Inversion being one of your splice enablers when you've made a bunch of Eldrazi Spawn? Just sac them for colorless mana first?
And Spawning Breath: Do you wipe a bunch of your tokens and replace them, or pump everybody up first? Or either, depending on the circumstance?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I wouldn't consider psychosis crawler for this build. While it is a good win condition in the right deck, we already have other win conditions that work well in the event that we don't completely go off. Mindmoil is a whole other animal, and if arjun, the shifting flame were monored there's a good chance that I'd play it, even at a CMC of 6.
The reasons I haven't tested mindmoil itself are twofold. The first is that the arcane spells are really only worth casting if you have one of the good options in your hand. It is therefore somewhat important to keep those in your hand, which is the reason I don't run other red draw such as wheel of fortune. That's just my opinion though, as other people have played those effects in Zada to good effect. The second reason is the same as psychosis crawler, and possibility storm. These are expensive spells that don't produce creatures (our main resource) and require additional mana to continue going off. Possibility storm actually synergies better with Zada, as we get to double-up on the radiate triggers without further mana investment, and I'm currently testing cutting it. In slower and more resilient builds, all of these would be considered for inclusion.
If I have drawn my entire deck, I'll try to win with fiery gambit or firestorm. It used to be that I went the overkill route rather consistently every opportunity I got, but for the sake of my playgroup's time I've typically just used those two cards. If those are countered or I face something difficult on the stack, then I'll go the more complex overkill route, which is more fun for me but definitely takes longer to resolve.
The 2.9 billion was the first time that I'd drawn my entire deck and I wanted to see what I could do. That took 10-15 minutes of me casting spells and my playgroup watching me. Nowadays, if I draw enough cards/have enough creatures I will use the shortcutting method of firestorm. If this doesn't happen, I think my last turn may take 5-10 minutes. This is heavily dependent on what I draw, because if I can continue drawing cards, I do. It should be less time in the long run if I draw until I can't (while not running out of resources) and cast firestorm/fiery gambit than if I go the more optimal route and make sure to always maximum my creature/mana counts. Again, I enjoy the more complex route but chose to get as fast as possible for the sake of my playgroup.
Strange inversion has not been an issue with losing creatures, be it spawn or kobolds of kher keep. I don't think that I've been in the position of needing to cast inversion without some pump spell either already cast or available to be cast. That would basically only be an issue if our only creature were emrakul's hatcher and our only mana source was desperate ritual. I don't think that this has come up in goldfishing, and I know that it hasn't happened in a game. The largest issue strange inversion has given me is a headache from calculating and tracking power when it was my only splice available for path of anger's flame. It was hard to tell if I had lethal or not.
I prefer to use spawning breath after a pump, as a ritual by effectively working as an all in ashnod's altar, or if needed just as a source of a single token. In the option to use it as a ritual, it becomes especially effective to remember that each one resolves individually, in the order that you chose. By ordering the copies that zada creates properly, you may be able to use the sudden access to colorless mana to cast something else and keep the critical creatures alive. This application is admittedly narrow, but leaving some of the spells on the stack to respond to comes up surprisingly often.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Indeed, it's ugly. But you probably did have lethal, especially if you did that early and did more power boosting later. I coded up some examples and at least there are calculable patterns to it. For those wanting to know more detail about this interaction and why it's a bloody mess, open the spoiler below.
The simplest pattern to it -- if you're getting targeting on Path with something better like Overblaze -- is that if you have X creatures your boost per creature will be a double of X squared (i.e., 2(X^2)). However, with the stepped pattern produced by using Strange Inversion you end up with an average boost per creature of half that, or just X^2. The very first creature to have it applied has the most power, and Zada (always being last) gets all those pumps and then swaps it to her toughness. So you can just assign creatures to attack opponents round-robin style and it should work out with marginal difference.
Effects happen in the order of text on the spell, so first all your creatures get +2/+0. Now you have 3/1s and a 5/3. Then that creature's power and toughness flip and he's a 1/3: The next resolves, granting your critters +2/+0 and flipping P/T on the second creature: After all of this is done, you're left with a state like this:
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
So if you have nine 1/1s and Zada, casting a Path of Anger's Flame with a spliced Strange Inversion targeting Zada will work out like this:
First spliced Path resolves: Eight 3/1s, a 1/3, and a 5/3.
Second spliced Path resolves: Seven 5/1s, two 1/5s, and a 7/3
Third spliced Path resolves: Six 7/1s, three 1/7s, and a 9/3
etc.
when the final spliced Path resolves (targeting Zada), you'll have nine 1/21s and a 3/23. Cast the Strange Inversion in your hand to flip them back to the way they should be (two power-and-toughness switching effects will, naturally, cancel one another out), and beat some face.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I had not fully realized that portion of layers. Thank you for clarifying .
Is anyone playing a more creature heavy, but still arcane build? I'm curious about through the breach.
As I said earlier, I've been trying to go off during combat, which typically shuts off the ability to increase the creature count. Through the breach would change that while counting as an arcane spell for that package, and perhaps improve responses the deck has to disruption.
The downside is that I'm only playing 12 creature cards, so it doesn't just slot into my build. Is anyone playing more creatures? I'm not exactly sold on the mana cost either, 5 mana is a lot.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I also wanted to report briefly on Mizzik's Mastery, now that I actually have it in my deck.
It's not as good as I thought it was going to be.
It's way, way, way better. Insanely better. To the point of being not even remotely fair. I played a game where I untapped on a turn with 5 lands, a sol ring, 2 goblins, and Zada, and I cast Battle Hymn and then followed it up with Mizzik's Mastery and proceeded to just end the game. We all knew the card would be good, but it really is *that* good.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
In hindsight, most Zada decks will be more spell heavy. I was mostly wondering if it was even feasible to consider. As much as I'd like to dream of dropping mogg fanatic or spikeshot elder along with some other creatures... it's probably win-more at best and useless at worst.
Mana costs/curve are really tight here, you are correct. I've been trying to fit in more/different arcane, but it just doesn't work out well. I have been testing spikeshot elder again at your recommendation, and it will most likely stay through my next update.
I haven't had a chance to play Mizzix'x Mastery in an actual game, but my testing agrees with your result. I look forward to overloading it.
Mizzix's Mastery cast the copies, so Zada does trigger. It's been absolutely nuts in testing.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I haven't tested mizzix's mastery, but I'm considering including a graveyard shuffle effect instead and then just replaying everything normally.