You can also use Psychosis Crawler as an alternate wincon. With so many cantrip you win. And it's not damage so it can't be prevented. It's from a colorless source so it's harder to get protection from it. It's also global so it bypasses hexproof and shroud. And it's super cheap to acquire.
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@lyonhaert - Overblaze does make quite a difference. I don't currently have that card as I opted to skip the arcane package. Is Overblaze still worth it as a one shot? (i.e., I can't splice it and I don't have Mizzix's Mastery or Past in Flames)
Maybe not, then. But even with 1 instance of it they're doing 4 damage for 2 mana, which is pretty efficient. And they're normally doing 1 damage per mana which isn't any worse than than burn spells aside from having to sack creatures/artifacts.
Also, an X burn sorcery would be win-more since we'd have to have lots of creatures to be able to generate enough mana for finishing an opponent. That's why Firestorm is so good. It fills the burn finisher slot but can also be used as a last-ditch game-ender because it's an instant.
I guess I was thinking of the X burn spells as alternate path to a kill than just creature damage. For example:
1) Using it in conjunction with rituals that don't require creatures (i.e., Inner Fire and Mana Geyser).
2) We swing with our creatures, but one of our opponents manages to survive. The burn spell finishes the job in conjunction with Skirk Prospector sac'ing creatures for mana.
3) Our creatures can't get through for some reason (e.g., Crawlspace), so we need an alternate plan.
Firestorm is indeed an awesome card, but it is outside of my budget restrictions. However, I'm a little confused by your statements. First, it seems that we'd still need quite a few creatures when we cast it. If we want to hit someone for 20 damage, we need 20 targets, which means we'll probably have to target mostly our own creatures. Also, why does the finisher have to be an instant? Couldn't it just be cast during the second main phase? (I don't have a ton of experience with this deck, so maybe I'm missing something obvious here.)
Ah, I hadn't realized Firestorm is at a higher price than I remembered. The reason I like instant speed noncombat damage is because of "fogs" like Comeuppance that would otherwise kill me from my own attack unless I take out the player controlling it while it's still on the stack.
I've been looking for alternative ways to damage the opponent outside of creature damage. One thought was to makes some use of the excess lands we draw by casting something like: Lightning Storm (owned) Land's Edge Seismic Assault
Do any of these have merit?
Another thought was to just discard cards in general for damage using cards like: Conflagrate (owned) Firestorm (outside my budget) Nahiri's Wrath
Other than Firestorm, are any of these worthwhile?
Of those options, I like Lightning Storm the best. But this is also a reason most of us run Fiery Gambit as a noncombat finisher.
Thanks for the suggestions. I have already assigned a slot in the deck for Psychosis Crawler, Spikeshot Elder, and Impact Tremors. I probably ought to beat my deck list into a format that can be posted sometime soon for feedback.
As far as combating cards like Comeuppance, what about Massive Raid? It's only a 15 cent card right now and looks like it might do the job.
A few years back, before Zada was printed, I passed over a copy of Fiery Gambit in the 15 cent bin at my LGS because I didn't think there would ever be a use for it. Now it's over $2 on TCGPlayer.com and I still haven't managed to pick up a copy.
I played the deck last night and on my first attempt to cast Zada she got hit with Desertion. I spent the rest of the game with virtually no card draw trying to kill my own Zada so I could do anything. It didn't help that I had only 1 land in my first hand, none in my second (friendly mulligan), and had to drop down to 6 cards before I got a 2nd land in my starting hand.
Thanks for the suggestions. I have already assigned a slot in the deck for Psychosis Crawler, Spikeshot Elder, and Impact Tremors. I probably ought to beat my deck list into a format that can be posted sometime soon for feedback.
As far as combating cards like Comeuppance, what about Massive Raid? It's only a 15 cent card right now and looks like it might do the job.
A few years back, before Zada was printed, I passed over a copy of Fiery Gambit in the 15 cent bin at my LGS because I didn't think there would ever be a use for it. Now it's over $2 on TCGPlayer.com and I still haven't managed to pick up a copy.
I played the deck last night and on my first attempt to cast Zada she got hit with Desertion. I spent the rest of the game with virtually no card draw trying to kill my own Zada so I could do anything. It didn't help that I had only 1 land in my first hand, none in my second (friendly mulligan), and had to drop down to 6 cards before I got a 2nd land in my starting hand.
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We've rarely had stealing spells in our meta other than my Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs deck that runs a lot of steal-and-sac, but (being red) I always give the creature back at the end of the turn unless I sacrifice it (returning it to their command zone). This was a new Arcanis the Omnipotent control deck that popped up out blue. Typically, our group has a negative view of blue control decks, so I'm hoping it gets hated out next week.
I even attempted to copy Zada with Heat Shimmer just to draw some cards, be he countered that too.
Alright, here's my current list. It's ultra-budget in that nothing on this list cost me more than 50 cents acquire. I fully recognize that the list would be made better by adding cards like Past in Flames/Mizzix's Mastery, Siege-Gang Commander/Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Krenko, Mob Boss. However, I'm not really looking to purchase cards at this point, just play it and enjoy it for what it is. If there is anything that looks out of place, I'd certainly appreciate the feedback so I can take it out. I currently have Shreds of Sanity, Recoup, and possibly Massive Raid waiting in the wings that I can substitute in for anything I remove.
EDIT: My entire deck costs $12.58 including shipping on TCGplayer.com right now. The most expensive card in the deck is Young Pyromancer ringing up at $1.12. All other cards are less than 50 cents max.
Myrmadillo, that's an impressive list for that cost. I'm not on top of card prices to make a good suggestion that doesn't impact price. I'm always happy to see someone playing possibility storm, as it was one of my favorite inclusions.
The density of rituals is slightly lowered. Has running out of mana been an issue for you, or do you spread the damage over multiple turns? That would also make flare, panic and aleatory more effective. I'm assuming those are used during an opponent's turn?
Alright, here's my current list. It's ultra-budget in that nothing on this list cost me more than 50 cents acquire. I fully recognize that the list would be made better by adding cards like Past in Flames/Mizzix's Mastery, Siege-Gang Commander/Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Krenko, Mob Boss. However, I'm not really looking to purchase cards at this point, just play it and enjoy it for what it is. If there is anything that looks out of place, I'd certainly appreciate the feedback so I can take it out. I currently have Shreds of Sanity, Recoup, and possibly Massive Raid waiting in the wings that I can substitute in for anything I remove.
EDIT: My entire deck costs $12.58 including shipping on TCGplayer.com right now. The most expensive card in the deck is Young Pyromancer ringing up at $1.12. All other cards are less than 50 cents max.
I concur with crazy monkey; the budgeting for that is insane! Very impressed!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The density of rituals is slightly lowered. Has running out of mana been an issue for you, or do you spread the damage over multiple turns? That would also make flare, panic and aleatory more effective. I'm assuming those are used during an opponent's turn?
The list is heavy revamp of a previous list I was playing. I found my biggest problem to be just getting the card draw rolling. At the time, I was only running 9 cantrips and one of them was Balduvian Rage, which is the only one I left out this time. (My previous list didn't include Zap/Flare for fear of killing my creatures or Renegade Tactics/Spark of Creativity because I didn't own them at the time.) Generally, I needed a cantrip to start the ball rolling, establishing my hand and a decent amount of board presence. As a result, I typically needed a setup turn before I could even attempt to go off. While the weaker cantrips you mention aren't good when trying to blow out the table, they work perfectly well to get the ball rolling and, yes, I try to cast them during an opponent's turn.
This deck doesn't tend to produce extreme blowouts like the optimized version. I haven't played it a lot, but the times I killed the entire table mana was short and I had just enough pump spells and creatures to swing through. I suspect these marginal kills will occur fairly frequently since I don't have access to all the rituals/mana reduction. (Treasonous Ogre is only 15 cents, but I haven't convinced myself to pick it up yet. I definitely hope to pick up Kari Zev's Expertise at some point though.)
Please, let me know if you see any cards on the list look questionable. I think Shreds of Sanity could be very good by enabling me to repeat a ritual, but I ran out of space before I could add it and I wanted to try all three of the mana dudes (Iron Myr/Priest of Urabrask/Walking Atlas).
After testing, I'm dropping Walking Atlas from my list. Most games I've found that I'm more concerned about drawing enough land to hit the critical 4th land drop than trying to drop more land faster. While I understand red mana is more important, my deck has enough colorless mana in the cards that I'm considering adding Hedron Crawler. As long as we don't go overboard on the colorless mana ramp, I think a couple cards like that could be really useful.
It's basically another final fortune option that can be used as a counterspell.
I've actually been tinkering around with a more creature based version so I can try to abuse Hazoret's Monument along with through the breach and sneak attack. Has anyone else thought about testing this, or was the 3 too high. In theory the looting + cost reduction should keep the engine going, but I have not had time to test.
It's basically another final fortune option that can be used as a counterspell.
I've actually been tinkering around with a more creature based version so I can try to abuse Hazoret's Monument along with through the breach and sneak attack. Has anyone else thought about testing this, or was the 3 too high. In theory the looting + cost reduction should keep the engine going, but I have not had time to test.
That's some pretty solid logic. But which creatures are you going to add to make it more consistent or worth while? How easy would it be to draw into Hazoret's Monument if you reduce the number of spells to add more creatures?
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It's basically another final fortune option that can be used as a counterspell.
I've actually been tinkering around with a more creature based version so I can try to abuse Hazoret's Monument along with through the breach and sneak attack. Has anyone else thought about testing this, or was the 3 too high. In theory the looting + cost reduction should keep the engine going, but I have not had time to test.
That's some pretty solid logic. But which creatures are you going to add to make it more consistent or worth while? How easy would it be to draw into Hazoret's Monument if you reduce the number of spells to add more creatures?
I was not going to be dropping any cantrips, mostly shifting non-creature sources of tokens to creatures, an more standalone creatures in general. It brings the overall curve up a lot, because I have been considering myr battlesphere and chancellor of the forge. I only play around 15 creature cards and have been trying to push it up towards 25 for this testing.
I may end up playing the monument anyway because it will always work at least once with Zada herself. That makes the payout is at 3 more creature spells, which I usually end up casting.
EDIT: I remember someone running cloudstone curio as a token engine, and that should probably also be in my testing group. That might make a storm path with the monument as a backup draw engine to find cantrips.
It's basically another final fortune option that can be used as a counterspell.
I've actually been tinkering around with a more creature based version so I can try to abuse Hazoret's Monument along with through the breach and sneak attack. Has anyone else thought about testing this, or was the 3 too high. In theory the looting + cost reduction should keep the engine going, but I have not had time to test.
That's some pretty solid logic. But which creatures are you going to add to make it more consistent or worth while? How easy would it be to draw into Hazoret's Monument if you reduce the number of spells to add more creatures?
I was not going to be dropping any cantrips, mostly shifting non-creature sources of tokens to creatures, an more standalone creatures in general. It brings the overall curve up a lot, because I have been considering myr battlesphere and chancellor of the forge. I only play around 15 creature cards and have been trying to push it up towards 25 for this testing.
I may end up playing the monument anyway because it will always work at least once with Zada herself. That makes the payout is at 3 more creature spells, which I usually end up casting.
EDIT: I remember someone running cloudstone curio as a token engine, and that should probably also be in my testing group. That might make a storm path with the monument as a backup draw engine to find cantrips.
Lol, that someone would be me . And the amount of tokens I produce thanks to it is insane! It would definitely make it worth while if you're constantly bouncing creatures like I am. You're pretty much gonna be chucking lands to the graveyard when looting - especially if you're able to go off in a single turn. If not, you could discard spells if you have Mizzix's Mastery or Past in Flames in your hand.
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Yeah, the monument being an optional cycling was intended to find a use for the surplus lands to dig into a cantrip, while also reducing costs.
I'll need to decide if I will include even the option to go infinite though, because I just realized that mogg war marshal and priest of urabrask goes infinite with those two artifacts set up. I have been avoiding anything actually infinite here, mostly because I enjoy crunching large numbers.
Yeah, but it's basically a 4-card infinite combo. So it's too convoluted to become an issue if you want to avoid going to infinity. However, it's still good to mention it for those who are interested. It's a great combo, after all.
I still feel like my list is pretty optimized for how I want to run the deck. It has an arcane package but not so deep into it. In the future I may cut Into the Fray for something more useful. What I do want for the deck is more cantrips like Expedite and more creatures that create tokens when entering the battlefield. That's basically it for me as far as the deck is concerned. Unless it's a freaky card like Chaos Warp or Fiery Gambit that are strange but cool in a deck like this.
EDIT:
Actually, since Æther Revolt I've been considering these changes and haven't really decided if it's something I should do:
Indomitable Creativity could potentially get all my creatures and artifacts in play for the small price of destroying any creatures already in play (and Zada). However, I see it more like an additional Chaos Warp that can't get my lands into play. Kari Zev's Expertise has a lot of potential. It's sort of like a ritual since I can play all cheap cards in my hand for free. Additionally, it can untap my creatures and give them haste.
What do you think on these changes? They significantly raise the average CMC of the deck but I feel like they're excellent swaps.
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I've been playing Kari Zev's expertise will a rather high success rate. Especially because nearly all cantrips fall into the 2 or less category, which allows us to refill and keep going. It also doubles as another way to get another activation from Krenko.
I have not tested indomitable creativity, mostly due to my lower count of creature cards. In a higher curve and more creature based deck it would probably have a rather high payout. Something else to consider here is that with enough creatures out, you could actually stack your Zada copies to hit tokens first, and have cloudstone curio come out midway through, bouncing non-token versions before they are destroyed.
I have more cards to test now. Unfortunately, I also have been working 70 hours a week and it's hard to test things.
I have not tested indomitable creativity, mostly due to my lower count of creature cards. In a higher curve and more creature based deck it would probably have a rather high payout. Something else to consider here is that with enough creatures out, you could actually stack your Zada copies to hit tokens first, and have cloudstone curio come out midway through, bouncing non-token versions before they are destroyed.
True, however, since I'm "saving" nontoken creatures, Indomitable Creativity won't trigger since the creatures aren't dying. Still, it's good to test out. I'd have to see how to manipulate the stack for it to be efficient. I'm guessing that after the first copy resolves, I resolve the Cloudstone Curio trigger before resolving the next copy of Indomitable Creativity?
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I have not tested indomitable creativity, mostly due to my lower count of creature cards. In a higher curve and more creature based deck it would probably have a rather high payout. Something else to consider here is that with enough creatures out, you could actually stack your Zada copies to hit tokens first, and have cloudstone curio come out midway through, bouncing non-token versions before they are destroyed.
True, however, since I'm "saving" nontoken creatures, Indomitable Creativity won't trigger since the creatures aren't dying. Still, it's good to test out. I'd have to see how to manipulate the stack for it to be efficient. I'm guessing that after the first copy resolves, I resolve the Cloudstone Curio trigger before resolving the next copy of Indomitable Creativity?
Yeah, the idea would be to resolve curio triggers while destroying tokens to bounce Zada and other good creatures. This should get easier based on the quantity of starting creatures versus the number of legal targets in our deck. If we have out say, 10 creatures + Zada, there is a 50% chance we flip curio before Zada to prevent destruction. That's based on what I remember from both of our lists (20-24 artifacts/creatures). Or just use otherworldly outburst to lose out on less.
That threshold is something we should consider, because it is inversely likely to hit curio (or any given artifact/creature) if we add more artifacts/creatures (to use with curio). A more permanent oriented deck with both would want to balance the number for the best results.
Yeah, either way it's still useful to run. I want to test it out at least. Most of my creatures are made from token spells than from creatures entering the battlefield. And when I have Cloudstone Curio in play I always bounce token makers just to be safe, anyways. Using Otherworldly Outburst has always been broken as well after using Spawning Breath, Make Mischief, Zap, Flare, or Fatal Frenzy.
Maybe I'll try some goldfishing later to see what comes of including Indomitable Creativity.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Now that I've played some games with Zada and have a better feel for how the deck operates, I'm starting to re-evaluate some of the cards on my "maybe" list and I'd appreciate some feedback from those who are more experienced with the deck than myself.
Descent of the Dragons/Hellion Eruption - Are these worth considering? I originally thought they'd be great finishers, but the more I look at them, the less I like them. Assuming your creatures are all 1/1's, Hellion Eruption is no better than any +3 pump (e.g., Brute Force) and you'll need to follow up with a haste spell or they can't attack this turn. Descent of the Dragons give evasion, but it still costs 4-5 mana more than a basic pump spell, many of which give trample. I guess they could serve as "abort switches" allowing you to keep all the copies generated by Twinflame or Heat Shimmer, but how often would you have the mana to use them in that case?
Rituals Treasonous Ogre - Typically, you're not going to drop this guy before you drop Zada. That means you'll most likely be going off when you draw him. Since he costs 4 mana, you're looking at 12 life invested before you break even, so 15 life for 1 net mana gain, 18 life for 2 net mana gain, 21 life for 3 net mana gain, etc. That doesn't seem like a great investment rate.
Thermopod - Similar argument to above. Thermopod costs 5 creatures before it breaks even on mana. I currently have this in my deck, but it is by far the weakest of my rituals. Whether this or Treasonous Ogre is better depends on your board state and health.
Dragonrage - Does anyone run this? It looks great for generating mana, but only doing it during the attack phase means you're limited to instants at that point. If you're already swinging, this is only helpful to push the attack over the edge if it was borderline whether you could kill everyone.
Geosurge - Comparing this to Thermopod and Treasonous Ogre, I'm starting to think this is the best of the three. Geosurge gives a net of 3 mana with no drawback. That's an equivalent cost of 21 life with Treasonous Ogre and 8 creatures with Thermopod. Granted, both have a higher mana ceiling, but Geosurge is basically no risk/cost, whereas the others can take a heavy toll on life or board state.
Am I missing anything on these cards or is that a pretty fair evaluation of each?
Lol, it's funny you should ask for advice on the matter being as I run none of those cards that you mentioned . Well, I run Treasonous Ogre and it's been great for me, at least.
As you mentioned, those cards are quite subpar considering that you could do so much better.
Descent of the Dragons and/or Hellion Eruption: These cards don't technically provide you with additional creatures; they substitute your creatures. So unless Purphoros, God of the Forge is a major wincon for the deck, those spells aren't really pulling their weight. Especially when compared to cards like Spawning Breath and Make Mischief, cards that are cheaper and actually raise your creature count - potentially double them, in fact (if the toughness of your creatures are greater than 1).
Thermopod: Not really a bad card however it is subpar in this deck that aims to be as efficient as possible. You'd need to sacrifice 5 creatures to recover the mana, which means 5 less creatures to take advantage of Zada's ability. This card should definitely be scrapped especially when Skirk Prospector is so superior to it.
Dragonrage: I don't like it since I can only use it during combat. Apart from the fact that you get R for each attacker, you're only able to take advantage of instants. Having said that, it's not a bad card; there are simply better cards out there.
Geosurge: Read it carefully. You can only use it to cast artifacts and creatures with it.
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Thanks for the response! It was quite helpful. Keep in mind I'm running an ultra-budget list, so many cards I consider might not make the cut on your list, might still make it onto mine.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Ah, I hadn't realized Firestorm is at a higher price than I remembered. The reason I like instant speed noncombat damage is because of "fogs" like Comeuppance that would otherwise kill me from my own attack unless I take out the player controlling it while it's still on the stack.
Of those options, I like Lightning Storm the best. But this is also a reason most of us run Fiery Gambit as a noncombat finisher.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
As far as combating cards like Comeuppance, what about Massive Raid? It's only a 15 cent card right now and looks like it might do the job.
A few years back, before Zada was printed, I passed over a copy of Fiery Gambit in the 15 cent bin at my LGS because I didn't think there would ever be a use for it. Now it's over $2 on TCGPlayer.com and I still haven't managed to pick up a copy.
I played the deck last night and on my first attempt to cast Zada she got hit with Desertion. I spent the rest of the game with virtually no card draw trying to kill my own Zada so I could do anything. It didn't help that I had only 1 land in my first hand, none in my second (friendly mulligan), and had to drop down to 6 cards before I got a 2nd land in my starting hand.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
If your meta has stealing spells and abilities, run Homeward Path. Also, Siege-Gang Commander and Spikeshot Elder can snipe creatures.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I even attempted to copy Zada with Heat Shimmer just to draw some cards, be he countered that too.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
1 Zada, Hedron Grinder
Cantrips (12)
1 Accelerate
1 Boiling Blood
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Expedite
1 Renegade Tactics
1 Spark of Creativity
1 Stun
1 Zap
1 Aleatory
1 Chaotic Strike
1 Flare
1 Panic
Buffs (11)
1 Brute Force
1 Brute Strength
1 Reckless Charge
1 Rush of Adrenaline
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Titan's Strength
1 Assault Strobe
1 Distemper of the Blood
1 Downhill Charge
1 Rouse the Mob
1 Screaming Fury
1 Dragon Fodder
1 Krenko's Command
1 Hordeling Outburst
1 Molten Birth
1 Dance with Devils
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin Rally
1 Goblinslide
Token Producing Creatures (8)
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Ghirapur Gearcrafter
1 Thopter Engineer
1 Beetleback Chief
1 Emrakul's Hatcher
1 Precursor Golem
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Young Pyromancer
Double Creatures (5)
1 Heat Shimmer
1 Twinflame
1 Make Mischief
1 Spawning Breath
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Battle Hymn
1 Brightstone Ritual
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Thermopod
1 Inner Fire
1 Mana Geyser
Wincons & Finishers (5)
1 Burn at the Stake
1 Mob Justice
1 Impact Tremors
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Spikeshot Elder
Resilience (3)
1 Goblin Chirurgeon
1 Otherworldly Outburst
1 Spawning Pit
Other (5)
1 Goblin Matron
1 Possibility Storm
1 Priest of Urabrask
1 Iron Myr
1 Walking Atlas
Land (36)
36 Mountain
EDIT: My entire deck costs $12.58 including shipping on TCGplayer.com right now. The most expensive card in the deck is Young Pyromancer ringing up at $1.12. All other cards are less than 50 cents max.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
The density of rituals is slightly lowered. Has running out of mana been an issue for you, or do you spread the damage over multiple turns? That would also make flare, panic and aleatory more effective. I'm assuming those are used during an opponent's turn?
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I concur with crazy monkey; the budgeting for that is insane! Very impressed!
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The list is heavy revamp of a previous list I was playing. I found my biggest problem to be just getting the card draw rolling. At the time, I was only running 9 cantrips and one of them was Balduvian Rage, which is the only one I left out this time. (My previous list didn't include Zap/Flare for fear of killing my creatures or Renegade Tactics/Spark of Creativity because I didn't own them at the time.) Generally, I needed a cantrip to start the ball rolling, establishing my hand and a decent amount of board presence. As a result, I typically needed a setup turn before I could even attempt to go off. While the weaker cantrips you mention aren't good when trying to blow out the table, they work perfectly well to get the ball rolling and, yes, I try to cast them during an opponent's turn.
This deck doesn't tend to produce extreme blowouts like the optimized version. I haven't played it a lot, but the times I killed the entire table mana was short and I had just enough pump spells and creatures to swing through. I suspect these marginal kills will occur fairly frequently since I don't have access to all the rituals/mana reduction. (Treasonous Ogre is only 15 cents, but I haven't convinced myself to pick it up yet. I definitely hope to pick up Kari Zev's Expertise at some point though.)
Please, let me know if you see any cards on the list look questionable. I think Shreds of Sanity could be very good by enabling me to repeat a ritual, but I ran out of space before I could add it and I wanted to try all three of the mana dudes (Iron Myr/Priest of Urabrask/Walking Atlas).
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Because the hover doesn't work yet:
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I've actually been tinkering around with a more creature based version so I can try to abuse Hazoret's Monument along with through the breach and sneak attack. Has anyone else thought about testing this, or was the 3 too high. In theory the looting + cost reduction should keep the engine going, but I have not had time to test.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
That's some pretty solid logic. But which creatures are you going to add to make it more consistent or worth while? How easy would it be to draw into Hazoret's Monument if you reduce the number of spells to add more creatures?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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I was not going to be dropping any cantrips, mostly shifting non-creature sources of tokens to creatures, an more standalone creatures in general. It brings the overall curve up a lot, because I have been considering myr battlesphere and chancellor of the forge. I only play around 15 creature cards and have been trying to push it up towards 25 for this testing.
I may end up playing the monument anyway because it will always work at least once with Zada herself. That makes the payout is at 3 more creature spells, which I usually end up casting.
EDIT: I remember someone running cloudstone curio as a token engine, and that should probably also be in my testing group. That might make a storm path with the monument as a backup draw engine to find cantrips.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Lol, that someone would be me . And the amount of tokens I produce thanks to it is insane! It would definitely make it worth while if you're constantly bouncing creatures like I am. You're pretty much gonna be chucking lands to the graveyard when looting - especially if you're able to go off in a single turn. If not, you could discard spells if you have Mizzix's Mastery or Past in Flames in your hand.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I'll need to decide if I will include even the option to go infinite though, because I just realized that mogg war marshal and priest of urabrask goes infinite with those two artifacts set up. I have been avoiding anything actually infinite here, mostly because I enjoy crunching large numbers.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I still feel like my list is pretty optimized for how I want to run the deck. It has an arcane package but not so deep into it. In the future I may cut Into the Fray for something more useful. What I do want for the deck is more cantrips like Expedite and more creatures that create tokens when entering the battlefield. That's basically it for me as far as the deck is concerned. Unless it's a freaky card like Chaos Warp or Fiery Gambit that are strange but cool in a deck like this.
EDIT:
Actually, since Æther Revolt I've been considering these changes and haven't really decided if it's something I should do:
1 Into the Fray
1 Reckless Chard
3 Indomitable Creativity
3 Kari Zev's Expertise
Kari Zev's Expertise has a lot of potential. It's sort of like a ritual since I can play all cheap cards in my hand for free. Additionally, it can untap my creatures and give them haste.
What do you think on these changes? They significantly raise the average CMC of the deck but I feel like they're excellent swaps.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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I have cut reckless charge, but I consider into the fray one of the better options to carry desperate ritual and path of anger's flame. The low cost to cast, plus being able to splice is something I place a high premium on for my arcane package.
I have not tested indomitable creativity, mostly due to my lower count of creature cards. In a higher curve and more creature based deck it would probably have a rather high payout. Something else to consider here is that with enough creatures out, you could actually stack your Zada copies to hit tokens first, and have cloudstone curio come out midway through, bouncing non-token versions before they are destroyed.
I have more cards to test now. Unfortunately, I also have been working 70 hours a week and it's hard to test things.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
True, however, since I'm "saving" nontoken creatures, Indomitable Creativity won't trigger since the creatures aren't dying. Still, it's good to test out. I'd have to see how to manipulate the stack for it to be efficient. I'm guessing that after the first copy resolves, I resolve the Cloudstone Curio trigger before resolving the next copy of Indomitable Creativity?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Yeah, the idea would be to resolve curio triggers while destroying tokens to bounce Zada and other good creatures. This should get easier based on the quantity of starting creatures versus the number of legal targets in our deck. If we have out say, 10 creatures + Zada, there is a 50% chance we flip curio before Zada to prevent destruction. That's based on what I remember from both of our lists (20-24 artifacts/creatures). Or just use otherworldly outburst to lose out on less.
That threshold is something we should consider, because it is inversely likely to hit curio (or any given artifact/creature) if we add more artifacts/creatures (to use with curio). A more permanent oriented deck with both would want to balance the number for the best results.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Maybe I'll try some goldfishing later to see what comes of including Indomitable Creativity.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Another cantrip! Sweet!
Crash Through
Oh wait, nevermind; it doesn't target .
However, we do have this very excellent creature: Firebrand Archer.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Descent of the Dragons/Hellion Eruption - Are these worth considering? I originally thought they'd be great finishers, but the more I look at them, the less I like them. Assuming your creatures are all 1/1's, Hellion Eruption is no better than any +3 pump (e.g., Brute Force) and you'll need to follow up with a haste spell or they can't attack this turn. Descent of the Dragons give evasion, but it still costs 4-5 mana more than a basic pump spell, many of which give trample. I guess they could serve as "abort switches" allowing you to keep all the copies generated by Twinflame or Heat Shimmer, but how often would you have the mana to use them in that case?
Rituals
Treasonous Ogre - Typically, you're not going to drop this guy before you drop Zada. That means you'll most likely be going off when you draw him. Since he costs 4 mana, you're looking at 12 life invested before you break even, so 15 life for 1 net mana gain, 18 life for 2 net mana gain, 21 life for 3 net mana gain, etc. That doesn't seem like a great investment rate.
Thermopod - Similar argument to above. Thermopod costs 5 creatures before it breaks even on mana. I currently have this in my deck, but it is by far the weakest of my rituals. Whether this or Treasonous Ogre is better depends on your board state and health.
Dragonrage - Does anyone run this? It looks great for generating mana, but only doing it during the attack phase means you're limited to instants at that point. If you're already swinging, this is only helpful to push the attack over the edge if it was borderline whether you could kill everyone.
Geosurge - Comparing this to Thermopod and Treasonous Ogre, I'm starting to think this is the best of the three. Geosurge gives a net of 3 mana with no drawback. That's an equivalent cost of 21 life with Treasonous Ogre and 8 creatures with Thermopod. Granted, both have a higher mana ceiling, but Geosurge is basically no risk/cost, whereas the others can take a heavy toll on life or board state.
Am I missing anything on these cards or is that a pretty fair evaluation of each?
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
As you mentioned, those cards are quite subpar considering that you could do so much better.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Doh! And I was so excited about that card.
Are Seething Song or Infernal Plunge even worth considering in its place?
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR