Thank you for the responses! I'm pulling everything I listed out of the deck except Goblinslide. It's effect is similar to Young Pyromancer, so I want to give it a try. I'm also adding the Myr Battlesphere to the deck. As I've been rebuilding the deck, I came across a few other cards I'd appreciate feedback on:
Explosive Revelation - Similar to Zap and Flare, but far more random on damage. However, unlike Flare, you do draw the cards immediately.
Elixir of Immortality - I originally threw this in out of fear that I might deck myself. Since I don't own Reliquary Tower or Spellbook, I often have to discard cards when I draw. I thought this might help me cycle back around. What is the general consensus on the need for something like Elixir?
Thank you for the responses! I'm pulling everything I listed out of the deck except Goblinslide. It's effect is similar to Young Pyromancer, so I want to give it a try. I'm also adding the Myr Battlesphere to the deck. As I've been rebuilding the deck, I came across a few other cards I'd appreciate feedback on:
Explosive Revelation - Similar to Zap and Flare, but far more random on damage. However, unlike Flare, you do draw the cards immediately.
Elixir of Immortality - I originally threw this in out of fear that I might deck myself. Since I don't own Reliquary Tower or Spellbook, I often have to discard cards when I draw. I thought this might help me cycle back around. What is the general consensus on the need for something like Elixir?
Thanks again!
Priest of Urabrask has always been a little underwhelming for me. It's free but it eats up a card in your hand, and I'm not a fan of playing bodies that don't also make tokens in some way except for when their abilities are extremely powerful, like with Magus of the Moon.
Elixir of Immortality is the kind of card I'd like to have in the deck, but also not really worth a slot, I've found. In general, if I've drawn enough cards that decking myself is a serious problem, I really should be able to win soon.
Explosive Revelation is interesting. My initial response is to dislike it because it costs 5, but the fact that it guarantees that you draw gas and not lands is very appealing. 5 mana is a lot, but it's definitely worth testing out I think. My particular build doesn't run many pump spells, but if you do, it's defintiely worthy of a testing slot at the very least. I might even give it a go, there's a lot of potential payoff there.
Thank you for the responses! I'm pulling everything I listed out of the deck except Goblinslide. It's effect is similar to Young Pyromancer, so I want to give it a try. I'm also adding the Myr Battlesphere to the deck. As I've been rebuilding the deck, I came across a few other cards I'd appreciate feedback on:
Explosive Revelation - Similar to Zap and Flare, but far more random on damage. However, unlike Flare, you do draw the cards immediately.
Elixir of Immortality - I originally threw this in out of fear that I might deck myself. Since I don't own Reliquary Tower or Spellbook, I often have to discard cards when I draw. I thought this might help me cycle back around. What is the general consensus on the need for something like Elixir?
Thanks again!
Explosive Revelation - I'd rather run Panic just because of the added risk of blowing up my own board. The only situation in which I could risk that is if I have plenty of mana and can re-cast Zada and resume going off with that mana and the new cards in hand. That's not even win-more.
Elixir of Immortality - I don't think any of us run this. If you get Flames and/or Mastery, it's relatively moot. There's a way to cycle through cards possibly infinitely with Elixir and Shimmer Myr but that's not something I want to be doing with the deck.
Edit: Oops. Admiral Sultan beat me, and we said different stuff. /shrug/
Thank you for the responses! I'm pulling everything I listed out of the deck except Goblinslide. It's effect is similar to Young Pyromancer, so I want to give it a try. I'm also adding the Myr Battlesphere to the deck. As I've been rebuilding the deck, I came across a few other cards I'd appreciate feedback on:
Explosive Revelation - Similar to Zap and Flare, but far more random on damage. However, unlike Flare, you do draw the cards immediately.
Elixir of Immortality - I originally threw this in out of fear that I might deck myself. Since I don't own Reliquary Tower or Spellbook, I often have to discard cards when I draw. I thought this might help me cycle back around. What is the general consensus on the need for something like Elixir?
Thanks again!
I like to run all three (Reliquary Tower, Spellbook, and Thought Vessel). It's probably overkill, but everytime I ran games without them, I drew in such a way that I couldn't win that turn and ended up discarding a bunch of cards. I got fed up with it and decided that I should draw into one of those 3 cards out of every 33 cards. The only time it becomes a bummer is drawing into most of them at once. However, Reliquary Tower just takes up a land slot. If you want to run one of them, probably run that one. Haze of Rage and Empty the Warrens don't mind Spellbook since it increases your storm count by 1 for free. Thought Vessel is a mana rock that does the same thing so I don't mind. Again, my preference.
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I'm still gradually working through my extensive list of potential cards while rebuilding my deck and ran into some more cards I would appreciate feedback on:
Dynacharge - Has the ability to pump all creatures even if Zada has left the field. How often might this come in handy? I don't see anyone running it on the most recent lists, but I know I saw mention of it on one of the Zada threads at some point.
Iron Myr/Walking Atlas/Hedron Crawler/Other Mana Dorks - I saw someone on this thread a while back touting these as outstanding mana ramp. What's the general consensus at this point?
Reforge the Soul - I believe this was on crazy monkey's original list, but it appears to have fallen off. Is it better to just run another cantrip?
I'm still gradually working through my extensive list of potential cards while rebuilding my deck and ran into some more cards I would appreciate feedback on:
Dynacharge - Has the ability to pump all creatures even if Zada has left the field. How often might this come in handy? I don't see anyone running it on the most recent lists, but I know I saw mention of it on one of the Zada threads at some point.
Iron Myr/Walking Atlas/Hedron Crawler/Other Mana Dorks - I saw someone on this thread a while back touting these as outstanding mana ramp. What's the general consensus at this point?
Reforge the Soul - I believe this was on crazy monkey's original list, but it appears to have fallen off. Is it better to just run another cantrip?
I've never tested dynacharge, but I don't think it does enough for us. Most pump spells give something else in addition to power. I don't think that I would play a card that's just +2/+0 other than a small haze of rage.
Creatures that produce mana have treated me well, but it really does need to produce R to be the most effective in my opinion. Iron myr has been in and out of my deck fairly frequently. On a similar topic, I've had relatively good results from priest of urabrask. At the worse, it's basically a free zada target. At the best, it can be an effective ritual with cost reduction and twinflame effects. I may be biased because I got a win with the priest as my only ritual effect for the first 40 cards or so.
Regarding reforge the soul, or wheel effects in general: I don't play ones other than my current testing of fateful showdown. I chose this specifically to hold onto my arcane cards in hand. I need to say that not all Zada decks want to do this and I've seen some good Zada storm decks that do use the wheels and filtering to back up the cantrips.
My experience with faithless looting and other looting is that it can help with some of the poorer hands that we can draw. I chose to give up those cards to try and maintain a critical mass of pump and arcane spells. I considered filtering cards to be approximately equal to a creature in the presence of a cantrip when looking at the probability of drawing into another cantrip. I would argue that they are overshadowed by the cantrips, but it will depend on how many of each function you play. If you play a smaller arcane packeg or fewer pump spells, these can be effective without lowering the probabilities of drawing into what you need by too many percentage points.
Regarding reforge the soul, or wheel effects in general: I don't play ones other than my current testing of fateful showdown. I chose this specifically to hold onto my arcane cards in hand. I need to say that not all Zada decks want to do this and I've seen some good Zada storm decks that do use the wheels and filtering to back up the cantrips.
Can you elaborate on your use of Fateful Showdown, particularly the "hold onto my arcane cards in my hand" part? The way I understand each instance of Showdown resolving, I don't much like how it works.
Regarding reforge the soul, or wheel effects in general: I don't play ones other than my current testing of fateful showdown. I chose this specifically to hold onto my arcane cards in hand. I need to say that not all Zada decks want to do this and I've seen some good Zada storm decks that do use the wheels and filtering to back up the cantrips.
Can you elaborate on your use of Fateful Showdown, particularly the "hold onto my arcane cards in my hand" part? The way I understand each instance of Showdown resolving, I don't much like how it works.
The short answer is that if I use fateful showdown, I've given up on arcane that game and my only remaining win conditions are fiery gambit or combat damage. The cards don't stay in my hand for use with firestorm, nor can I have any confidence that I'll end up with arcane spells in my hand. I will likely end up with access to a large number of pump spells across my hand and graveyard for use via past in flames, so it most effectively enables the straightforward combat plan.
It's situational but good enough to end a game if I have no other options.
I concur with crazy monkey as far as wheels and the other looting cards are concerned. Why waste a slot for Wild Guess when you can use it for a pump spell or a cantrip?
As for Fateful Showdown, it's a ridiculous card to run. You will dig through your deck in an insane way. If you calculate correctly, you don't deck yourself and you have practically all your spells in your graveyard. Past in Flames has flashback so being able to cast Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard thanks to it (overloaded) means for some ridiculous plays. I don't run it because most of the time I end up killing my creatures. It requires some more setup than some others cards. That's my only reason for not supporting the card 100%. However, I do not think it should be completely ignored. If that sort of thing is your bag, then definitely go for it.
Mana dorks can be hit or miss. This deck needs R, not . Mana dorks that tap for aren't as useful as they seem. If Sisters of the Flame cost R instead of 1RR (they'd probably have to be 1/1), then they would definitely be in here. From what crazy monkey suggests, you could probably run Priest of Urabrask. However, again, that's not a card I run.
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So by calculating correctly, you mean casting cards between resolving instances of Showdown to reduce how many cards you discard and draw when resolving subsequent instances?
By the way, you can't overload Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard when flashback is how you're casting it. Overload is an alternate casting cost, but so is flashback (that happens to only be available from the graveyard).
So by calculating correctly, you mean casting cards between resolving instances of Showdown to reduce how many cards you discard and draw when resolving subsequent instances?
By the way, you can't overload Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard when flashback is how you're casting it. Overload is an alternate casting cost, but so is flashback (that happens to only be available from the graveyard).
Hm, if I can't cast Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard, you'd have to also run Shreds of Sanity. That's already too many hoops to jump through besides running the arcane package. I think I'll refrain from wheeling, then.
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Well, I have good news, too. I recall you said arcane splicing couldn't be abused with an overloaded Mastery re-casting copies of arcane spells it exiled form the graveyard. You actually can, you just have to be able to front all the splicing costs up front as you're casting the copies.
By way of example, let's say I have Mastery, Overblaze, and Desperate Ritual in my hand and I have Unnatural Speed and Path of Anger's Flame in the graveyard. When I overload Mastery exiling Speed and PAF and copying them, I still cast them one at a time as part of Mastery's resolution in order to choose the order they're on the stack. With each cast I can reveal Overblaze and Ritual from my hand and pay 3RRR to splice both on. I won't be able to splice Ritual and let an arcane spell resolve in order to get the mana for more splicing on the copied spells, but if I have at least 5RRR+3RRR+3RRR for this example to overload Mastery and splice Overblaze and Ritual twice, that is exactly what I can do if I want. With both cost reducers in play the minimum for the example would be 3RRR+1RRR+1RRR.
Ah, that is true! Since they're being "cast", you can reveal arcane spells to splice as they're "being cast" in order to add the effect to the card. Makes perfect sense to me. And this is legit?
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I concur with crazy monkey as far as wheels and the other looting cards are concerned. Why waste a slot for Wild Guess when you can use it for a pump spell or a cantrip?
To provide another side of the argument, I run almost *every* 2 CMC or less red "draw and discard" sorcery in my deck. My list is more of an all-in storm deck, and as far as I'm concerned, there are two states your hand can be in while playing Zada--either you have a cantrip, or you don't. If you have a cantrip, you're doing great, the filter spells are just gravy on top of it. If you *don't* have a cantrip, you're falling behind and you really want to find one, so filtering and wheeling is extremely useful there. The same logic also applies if you have cantrips but no creatures.
My biggest caveat to this is that if you're not playing as-fast-as-possible storm, the filtering spells lose a good amount of value. My deck essentially never wins through combat, and runs two pump spells total, relying on mass draw to get me where I need to go, taking out my opponents before a sweeper shows up. If you're more interested in a less glass cannon-y version, or one involving more creature combat, playing more ways to kill your opponent is definitely the right call. I still like Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune, but otherwise I agree with the consensus here. Just wanted to point out a context where those spells do some work.
I concur with crazy monkey as far as wheels and the other looting cards are concerned. Why waste a slot for Wild Guess when you can use it for a pump spell or a cantrip?
To provide another side of the argument, I run almost *every* 2 CMC or less red "draw and discard" sorcery in my deck. My list is more of an all-in storm deck, and as far as I'm concerned, there are two states your hand can be in while playing Zada--either you have a cantrip, or you don't. If you have a cantrip, you're doing great, the filter spells are just gravy on top of it. If you *don't* have a cantrip, you're falling behind and you really want to find one, so filtering and wheeling is extremely useful there. The same logic also applies if you have cantrips but no creatures.
My biggest caveat to this is that if you're not playing as-fast-as-possible storm, the filtering spells lose a good amount of value. My deck essentially never wins through combat, and runs two pump spells total, relying on mass draw to get me where I need to go, taking out my opponents before a sweeper shows up. If you're more interested in a less glass cannon-y version, or one involving more creature combat, playing more ways to kill your opponent is definitely the right call. I still like Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune, but otherwise I agree with the consensus here. Just wanted to point out a context where those spells do some work.
Hm, I see your point. There are alternate wincons besides combat damage. There's Aetherflux Reservoir, Spikeshot Elder, Psychosis Crawler, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and others - all very viable. (Sorry for the lack of card tags; I'm answering on my phone.)
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Thank you for all the responses! I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.
Regarding mana creatures, I'm going to assign one rotating slot for Priest of Urabrask and Iron Myr to try them out. However, I do not currently have any mana reduction (e.g., Ruby Medallion) in the deck, so the Priest will only give mana when I copy him with Twinflame/Heat Shimmer.
Any thoughts on the possibility that Walking Atlas might actually be better than Iron Myr? It seems like Iron Myr is best for early mana ramp when you don't have a lot of mountains in hand. However, once you start drawing cards, you'll almost always have a mountain for Walking Atlas to drop on the field. If the board does get wiped, the mountains will generally still be around to help get you back on your feet.
Regarding Dynacharge, the only value it has is if you have a lot of creatures, but Zada has been killed. In that case, it might allow you to swing for lethal. How often does the deck run into problems where Zada has been killed so many times you can't afford to cast her again and have to find some other way to win? (Or, at that point, is it just hopeless anyway?)
Regarding card draw/filtering: For now, I'm dropping Reforge the Soul from my list and removing Faithless Looting and its ilk from consideration in favor of running the max number of cantrips. I've put every cantrip but Balduvian Rage into my deck:
Finally, is there a reason no one runs Archetype of Aggression? It seems like it would go well with this deck, but perhaps we have enough pump spells with trample that it is unnecessary.
Thank you for all the responses! I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.
Regarding mana creatures, I'm going to assign one rotating slot for Priest of Urabrask and Iron Myr to try them out. However, I do not currently have any mana reduction (e.g., Ruby Medallion) in the deck, so the Priest will only give mana when I copy him with Twinflame/Heat Shimmer.
Any thoughts on the possibility that Walking Atlas might actually be better than Iron Myr? It seems like Iron Myr is best for early mana ramp when you don't have a lot of mountains in hand. However, once you start drawing cards, you'll almost always have a mountain for Walking Atlas to drop on the field. If the board does get wiped, the mountains will generally still be around to help get you back on your feet.
Regarding Dynacharge, the only value it has is if you have a lot of creatures, but Zada has been killed. In that case, it might allow you to swing for lethal. How often does the deck run into problems where Zada has been killed so many times you can't afford to cast her again and have to find some other way to win? (Or, at that point, is it just hopeless anyway?)
Regarding card draw/filtering: For now, I'm dropping Reforge the Soul from my list and removing Faithless Looting and its ilk from consideration in favor of running the max number of cantrips. I've put every cantrip but Balduvian Rage into my deck:
Finally, is there a reason no one runs Archetype of Aggression? It seems like it would go well with this deck, but perhaps we have enough pump spells with trample that it is unnecessary.
That is exactly why I don't run Archetype of Aggression.
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Also, now that I think about it more, Archetype of Aggression could get destroyed/exiled once you've committed to the attack and all your creatures would lose trample. If you used a pump spell and it wasn't countered, there is no single point of failure that could be used to remove trample from all your creatures.
If one is consistently getting to Twinflame/Heat Shimmer, then Walking Atlas could be pretty good for similar reasons Iron Myr is good. However, I don't know that I would play it over Iron Myr, but I would definitely play it over the colorless options like Hedron Crawler/Manakin/Millikin. The reason for this is the phase of going off where they're the most useful: achieving critical mass (creatures+mana+cards). If you've already going off well then you shouldn't need the extra lands or even the extra mana dorks and you probably have lots of cards in hand. They become win-more, and not very impactful at that. However in the phase where you still have to be careful while trying to go off R is much, much better than C. The main differences I see between Atlas and Iron Myr are: 1. Atlas needs you to have a land in hand for it to be useful; 2. the mana ability of Iron Myr does not use the stack, but Walking Atlas's ability does.
I might test Walking Atlas myself sometime just to see if I can get an extra land or two in play before going off.
If one is consistently getting to Twinflame/Heat Shimmer, then Walking Atlas could be pretty good for similar reasons Iron Myr is good. However, I don't know that I would play it over Iron Myr, but I would definitely play it over the colorless options like Hedron Crawler/Manakin/Millikin. The reason for this is the phase of going off where they're the most useful: achieving critical mass (creatures+mana+cards). If you've already going off well then you shouldn't need the extra lands or even the extra mana dorks and you probably have lots of cards in hand. They become win-more, and not very impactful at that. However in the phase where you still have to be careful while trying to go off R is much, much better than C. The main differences I see between Atlas and Iron Myr are: 1. Atlas needs you to have a land in hand for it to be useful; 2. the mana ability of Iron Myr does not use the stack, but Walking Atlas's ability does.
I might test Walking Atlas myself sometime just to see if I can get an extra land or two in play before going off.
I don't think Walking Atlas is that bad a card to test. Technically, it does give you R mana if you use it to drop a land. It's great at the beginning and mid game. But late game it could be underwhelming. However, even then, it's still a body as far as Zada is concerned.
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Thanks for all the feedback so far! If you'd continue to indulge me, I have some other cards from my original list that I'm trying to re-evaluate:
Devil's Play/Red Sun's Zenith - With the number of rituals we have in the deck, I thought having an X burn spell might be handy for finishing off an opponent. Do these have any place in the deck? I understand that Spikeshot Elder is far more efficient for the mana once you've pumped him up. However, mana for mana these spells are more efficient than Siege-gang Commander and Pia and Kiran Nalaar as direct damage outlets.
Arms Dealer & Tuktuk Scrapper - I put these in to help control the board state by eliminating opposing creatures and artifacts. Does anyone run utility spells like these? Or is it just better just to try to outrace any troublesome permanents an opponent might play?
Also, a question for DementedKirby: I noticed your non-arcane, uber budget deck runs Iron League Steed, which is 2 creatures for 4 cost. What do you think of running Dance with Devils in that spot instead? It doesn't quite give as many creatures when copied, but the ability to convert the devil tokens into direct damage when they leave the battlefield seems beneficial. If you slot in Devils' Playground instead of something like Myr Battlesphere, you could see quite a few of the little buggers getting copied and then dealing damage when they leave play.
Also, a question for DementedKirby: I noticed your non-arcane, uber budget deck runs Iron League Steed, which is 2 creatures for 4 cost. What do you think of running Dance with Devils in that spot instead? It doesn't quite give as many creatures when copied, but the ability to convert the devil tokens into direct damage when they leave the battlefield seems beneficial. If you slot in Devils' Playground instead of something like Myr Battlesphere, you could see quite a few of the little buggers getting copied and then dealing damage when they leave play.
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That depends on how many instances of Overblaze are on them.
Also, an X burn sorcery would be win-more since we'd have to have lots of creatures to be able to generate enough mana for finishing an opponent. That's why Firestorm is so good. It fills the burn finisher slot but can also be used as a last-ditch game-ender because it's an instant.
@DementedKirby - Good point on Myr Battlesphere. I keep forgetting that tapping other Myr does more than just pump the Battlesphere.
@lyonhaert - Overblaze does make quite a difference. I don't currently have that card as I opted to skip the arcane package. Is Overblaze still worth it as a one shot? (i.e., I can't splice it and I don't have Mizzix's Mastery or Past in Flames)
Also, an X burn sorcery would be win-more since we'd have to have lots of creatures to be able to generate enough mana for finishing an opponent. That's why Firestorm is so good. It fills the burn finisher slot but can also be used as a last-ditch game-ender because it's an instant.
I guess I was thinking of the X burn spells as alternate path to a kill than just creature damage. For example:
1) Using it in conjunction with rituals that don't require creatures (i.e., Inner Fire and Mana Geyser).
2) We swing with our creatures, but one of our opponents manages to survive. The burn spell finishes the job in conjunction with Skirk Prospector sac'ing creatures for mana.
3) Our creatures can't get through for some reason (e.g., Crawlspace), so we need an alternate plan.
Firestorm is indeed an awesome card, but it is outside of my budget restrictions. However, I'm a little confused by your statements. First, it seems that we'd still need quite a few creatures when we cast it. If we want to hit someone for 20 damage, we need 20 targets, which means we'll probably have to target mostly our own creatures. Also, why does the finisher have to be an instant? Couldn't it just be cast during the second main phase? (I don't have a ton of experience with this deck, so maybe I'm missing something obvious here.)
I've been looking for alternative ways to damage the opponent outside of creature damage. One thought was to makes some use of the excess lands we draw by casting something like: Lightning Storm (owned) Land's Edge Seismic Assault
Do any of these have merit?
Another thought was to just discard cards in general for damage using cards like: Conflagrate (owned) Firestorm (outside my budget) Nahiri's Wrath
Other than Firestorm, are any of these worthwhile?
Explosive Revelation - Similar to Zap and Flare, but far more random on damage. However, unlike Flare, you do draw the cards immediately.
Priest of Urabrask - Other than Heat Shimmer and Twinflame, I can't think of any copy effects now that I've removed Flameshadow Conjuring and Flamerush Rider. I don't own Past in Flames or Mizzix's Mastery, though I do have Recoup and Shreds of Sanity available (not currently in deck).
Elixir of Immortality - I originally threw this in out of fear that I might deck myself. Since I don't own Reliquary Tower or Spellbook, I often have to discard cards when I draw. I thought this might help me cycle back around. What is the general consensus on the need for something like Elixir?
Thanks again!
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Priest of Urabrask has always been a little underwhelming for me. It's free but it eats up a card in your hand, and I'm not a fan of playing bodies that don't also make tokens in some way except for when their abilities are extremely powerful, like with Magus of the Moon.
Elixir of Immortality is the kind of card I'd like to have in the deck, but also not really worth a slot, I've found. In general, if I've drawn enough cards that decking myself is a serious problem, I really should be able to win soon.
Explosive Revelation is interesting. My initial response is to dislike it because it costs 5, but the fact that it guarantees that you draw gas and not lands is very appealing. 5 mana is a lot, but it's definitely worth testing out I think. My particular build doesn't run many pump spells, but if you do, it's defintiely worthy of a testing slot at the very least. I might even give it a go, there's a lot of potential payoff there.
Priest of Urabrask - I still run this guy. At the least he's a "free" creature. Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery are totally worth it and pretty cheap cards.
Elixir of Immortality - I don't think any of us run this. If you get Flames and/or Mastery, it's relatively moot. There's a way to cycle through cards possibly infinitely with Elixir and Shimmer Myr but that's not something I want to be doing with the deck.
Edit: Oops. Admiral Sultan beat me, and we said different stuff. /shrug/
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I like to run all three (Reliquary Tower, Spellbook, and Thought Vessel). It's probably overkill, but everytime I ran games without them, I drew in such a way that I couldn't win that turn and ended up discarding a bunch of cards. I got fed up with it and decided that I should draw into one of those 3 cards out of every 33 cards. The only time it becomes a bummer is drawing into most of them at once. However, Reliquary Tower just takes up a land slot. If you want to run one of them, probably run that one. Haze of Rage and Empty the Warrens don't mind Spellbook since it increases your storm count by 1 for free. Thought Vessel is a mana rock that does the same thing so I don't mind. Again, my preference.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Dynacharge - Has the ability to pump all creatures even if Zada has left the field. How often might this come in handy? I don't see anyone running it on the most recent lists, but I know I saw mention of it on one of the Zada threads at some point.
Iron Myr/Walking Atlas/Hedron Crawler/Other Mana Dorks - I saw someone on this thread a while back touting these as outstanding mana ramp. What's the general consensus at this point?
Reforge the Soul - I believe this was on crazy monkey's original list, but it appears to have fallen off. Is it better to just run another cantrip?
Similarly, is there any use for card filtering to dig for gas, a la Faithless Looting, Wild Guess/Tormenting Voice, Commune with Lava, Magmatic Insight, etc., or are those also completely overshadowed by the cantrips?
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
I've never tested dynacharge, but I don't think it does enough for us. Most pump spells give something else in addition to power. I don't think that I would play a card that's just +2/+0 other than a small haze of rage.
Creatures that produce mana have treated me well, but it really does need to produce R to be the most effective in my opinion. Iron myr has been in and out of my deck fairly frequently. On a similar topic, I've had relatively good results from priest of urabrask. At the worse, it's basically a free zada target. At the best, it can be an effective ritual with cost reduction and twinflame effects. I may be biased because I got a win with the priest as my only ritual effect for the first 40 cards or so.
Regarding reforge the soul, or wheel effects in general: I don't play ones other than my current testing of fateful showdown. I chose this specifically to hold onto my arcane cards in hand. I need to say that not all Zada decks want to do this and I've seen some good Zada storm decks that do use the wheels and filtering to back up the cantrips.
My experience with faithless looting and other looting is that it can help with some of the poorer hands that we can draw. I chose to give up those cards to try and maintain a critical mass of pump and arcane spells. I considered filtering cards to be approximately equal to a creature in the presence of a cantrip when looking at the probability of drawing into another cantrip. I would argue that they are overshadowed by the cantrips, but it will depend on how many of each function you play. If you play a smaller arcane packeg or fewer pump spells, these can be effective without lowering the probabilities of drawing into what you need by too many percentage points.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
The short answer is that if I use fateful showdown, I've given up on arcane that game and my only remaining win conditions are fiery gambit or combat damage. The cards don't stay in my hand for use with firestorm, nor can I have any confidence that I'll end up with arcane spells in my hand. I will likely end up with access to a large number of pump spells across my hand and graveyard for use via past in flames, so it most effectively enables the straightforward combat plan.
It's situational but good enough to end a game if I have no other options.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
As for Fateful Showdown, it's a ridiculous card to run. You will dig through your deck in an insane way. If you calculate correctly, you don't deck yourself and you have practically all your spells in your graveyard. Past in Flames has flashback so being able to cast Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard thanks to it (overloaded) means for some ridiculous plays. I don't run it because most of the time I end up killing my creatures. It requires some more setup than some others cards. That's my only reason for not supporting the card 100%. However, I do not think it should be completely ignored. If that sort of thing is your bag, then definitely go for it.
Mana dorks can be hit or miss. This deck needs R, not . Mana dorks that tap for aren't as useful as they seem. If Sisters of the Flame cost R instead of 1RR (they'd probably have to be 1/1), then they would definitely be in here. From what crazy monkey suggests, you could probably run Priest of Urabrask. However, again, that's not a card I run.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
By the way, you can't overload Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard when flashback is how you're casting it. Overload is an alternate casting cost, but so is flashback (that happens to only be available from the graveyard).
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Hm, if I can't cast Mizzix's Mastery from the graveyard, you'd have to also run Shreds of Sanity. That's already too many hoops to jump through besides running the arcane package. I think I'll refrain from wheeling, then.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
By way of example, let's say I have Mastery, Overblaze, and Desperate Ritual in my hand and I have Unnatural Speed and Path of Anger's Flame in the graveyard. When I overload Mastery exiling Speed and PAF and copying them, I still cast them one at a time as part of Mastery's resolution in order to choose the order they're on the stack. With each cast I can reveal Overblaze and Ritual from my hand and pay 3RRR to splice both on. I won't be able to splice Ritual and let an arcane spell resolve in order to get the mana for more splicing on the copied spells, but if I have at least 5RRR+3RRR+3RRR for this example to overload Mastery and splice Overblaze and Ritual twice, that is exactly what I can do if I want. With both cost reducers in play the minimum for the example would be 3RRR+1RRR+1RRR.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
old thread
old thread
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
To provide another side of the argument, I run almost *every* 2 CMC or less red "draw and discard" sorcery in my deck. My list is more of an all-in storm deck, and as far as I'm concerned, there are two states your hand can be in while playing Zada--either you have a cantrip, or you don't. If you have a cantrip, you're doing great, the filter spells are just gravy on top of it. If you *don't* have a cantrip, you're falling behind and you really want to find one, so filtering and wheeling is extremely useful there. The same logic also applies if you have cantrips but no creatures.
My biggest caveat to this is that if you're not playing as-fast-as-possible storm, the filtering spells lose a good amount of value. My deck essentially never wins through combat, and runs two pump spells total, relying on mass draw to get me where I need to go, taking out my opponents before a sweeper shows up. If you're more interested in a less glass cannon-y version, or one involving more creature combat, playing more ways to kill your opponent is definitely the right call. I still like Faithless Looting and Wheel of Fortune, but otherwise I agree with the consensus here. Just wanted to point out a context where those spells do some work.
Hm, I see your point. There are alternate wincons besides combat damage. There's Aetherflux Reservoir, Spikeshot Elder, Psychosis Crawler, Purphoros, God of the Forge, and others - all very viable. (Sorry for the lack of card tags; I'm answering on my phone.)
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Regarding mana creatures, I'm going to assign one rotating slot for Priest of Urabrask and Iron Myr to try them out. However, I do not currently have any mana reduction (e.g., Ruby Medallion) in the deck, so the Priest will only give mana when I copy him with Twinflame/Heat Shimmer.
Any thoughts on the possibility that Walking Atlas might actually be better than Iron Myr? It seems like Iron Myr is best for early mana ramp when you don't have a lot of mountains in hand. However, once you start drawing cards, you'll almost always have a mountain for Walking Atlas to drop on the field. If the board does get wiped, the mountains will generally still be around to help get you back on your feet.
Regarding Dynacharge, the only value it has is if you have a lot of creatures, but Zada has been killed. In that case, it might allow you to swing for lethal. How often does the deck run into problems where Zada has been killed so many times you can't afford to cast her again and have to find some other way to win? (Or, at that point, is it just hopeless anyway?)
Regarding card draw/filtering: For now, I'm dropping Reforge the Soul from my list and removing Faithless Looting and its ilk from consideration in favor of running the max number of cantrips. I've put every cantrip but Balduvian Rage into my deck:
1 Accelerate
1 Boiling Blood
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Expedite
1 Renegade Tactics
1 Spark of Creativity
1 Stun
1 Zap
1 Aleatory
1 Chaotic Strike
1 Flare
1 Panic
Finally, is there a reason no one runs Archetype of Aggression? It seems like it would go well with this deck, but perhaps we have enough pump spells with trample that it is unnecessary.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
That is exactly why I don't run Archetype of Aggression.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
If one is consistently getting to Twinflame/Heat Shimmer, then Walking Atlas could be pretty good for similar reasons Iron Myr is good. However, I don't know that I would play it over Iron Myr, but I would definitely play it over the colorless options like Hedron Crawler/Manakin/Millikin. The reason for this is the phase of going off where they're the most useful: achieving critical mass (creatures+mana+cards). If you've already going off well then you shouldn't need the extra lands or even the extra mana dorks and you probably have lots of cards in hand. They become win-more, and not very impactful at that. However in the phase where you still have to be careful while trying to go off R is much, much better than C. The main differences I see between Atlas and Iron Myr are: 1. Atlas needs you to have a land in hand for it to be useful; 2. the mana ability of Iron Myr does not use the stack, but Walking Atlas's ability does.
I might test Walking Atlas myself sometime just to see if I can get an extra land or two in play before going off.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I concur; that's why I play Legion Loyalist in my build.
I don't think Walking Atlas is that bad a card to test. Technically, it does give you R mana if you use it to drop a land. It's great at the beginning and mid game. But late game it could be underwhelming. However, even then, it's still a body as far as Zada is concerned.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Devil's Play/Red Sun's Zenith - With the number of rituals we have in the deck, I thought having an X burn spell might be handy for finishing off an opponent. Do these have any place in the deck? I understand that Spikeshot Elder is far more efficient for the mana once you've pumped him up. However, mana for mana these spells are more efficient than Siege-gang Commander and Pia and Kiran Nalaar as direct damage outlets.
Arms Dealer & Tuktuk Scrapper - I put these in to help control the board state by eliminating opposing creatures and artifacts. Does anyone run utility spells like these? Or is it just better just to try to outrace any troublesome permanents an opponent might play?
Also, a question for DementedKirby: I noticed your non-arcane, uber budget deck runs Iron League Steed, which is 2 creatures for 4 cost. What do you think of running Dance with Devils in that spot instead? It doesn't quite give as many creatures when copied, but the ability to convert the devil tokens into direct damage when they leave the battlefield seems beneficial. If you slot in Devils' Playground instead of something like Myr Battlesphere, you could see quite a few of the little buggers getting copied and then dealing damage when they leave play.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
You're right on using Dance with Devils instead of Iron League Steed. It triggers Young Pyromancer and can be used with Mizzix's Mastery. That can definitely be a swap. As for Myr Battlesphere, for 1 more I get 5 creatures. And the battlesphere itself can get pumped and deal direct damage by tapping Myr tokens. So when doubling creatures it's much better than Devils' Playground.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Also, an X burn sorcery would be win-more since we'd have to have lots of creatures to be able to generate enough mana for finishing an opponent. That's why Firestorm is so good. It fills the burn finisher slot but can also be used as a last-ditch game-ender because it's an instant.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
@lyonhaert - Overblaze does make quite a difference. I don't currently have that card as I opted to skip the arcane package. Is Overblaze still worth it as a one shot? (i.e., I can't splice it and I don't have Mizzix's Mastery or Past in Flames)
I guess I was thinking of the X burn spells as alternate path to a kill than just creature damage. For example:
1) Using it in conjunction with rituals that don't require creatures (i.e., Inner Fire and Mana Geyser).
2) We swing with our creatures, but one of our opponents manages to survive. The burn spell finishes the job in conjunction with Skirk Prospector sac'ing creatures for mana.
3) Our creatures can't get through for some reason (e.g., Crawlspace), so we need an alternate plan.
Firestorm is indeed an awesome card, but it is outside of my budget restrictions. However, I'm a little confused by your statements. First, it seems that we'd still need quite a few creatures when we cast it. If we want to hit someone for 20 damage, we need 20 targets, which means we'll probably have to target mostly our own creatures. Also, why does the finisher have to be an instant? Couldn't it just be cast during the second main phase? (I don't have a ton of experience with this deck, so maybe I'm missing something obvious here.)
I've been looking for alternative ways to damage the opponent outside of creature damage. One thought was to makes some use of the excess lands we draw by casting something like:
Lightning Storm (owned)
Land's Edge
Seismic Assault
Do any of these have merit?
Another thought was to just discard cards in general for damage using cards like:
Conflagrate (owned)
Firestorm (outside my budget)
Nahiri's Wrath
Other than Firestorm, are any of these worthwhile?
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR