I think, in writing up some thoughts on the shooters like SGC and Spikeshot, I convinced myself to find a spot for Thermo-Alchemist and see how it pans out.
I think, in writing up some thoughts on the shooters like SGC and Spikeshot, I convinced myself to find a spot for Thermo-Alchemist and see how it pans out.
What do you think?
The biggest drawback I see is defender, so it can't follow the backup plan if we stall out with only pump spells. I'd actually consider guttersnipe before it for myself, but I believe you run more untap effects than I do.
I think I agree with the inner fire cut for expertise, and will be testing accordingly.
That seems like a reasonable choice. Though you could also go with swapping out Distemper of Blood or even a creature.
I wanted to avoid swapping it out for spells that gave my creatures at least a +1 in toughness since I run so many spells that ping my own creatures for 1 damage for benefit (Zap, Flare, Make Mischief, Spawning Breath, etc.)
I haven't been able to test it yet, but in theory, I feel this is a good swap. The deck does have ways to produce mana but not a lot of them. At least with this I can give haste (one of the benefits of Reckless Charge) while also being able to cast pretty much any spell since most of them cost 2 or less. I'll probably end up goldfishing to see what'll happen if I don't draw it in a game.
I think, in writing up some thoughts on the shooters like SGC and Spikeshot, I convinced myself to find a spot for Thermo-Alchemist and see how it pans out.
What do you think?
The biggest drawback I see is defender, so it can't follow the backup plan if we stall out with only pump spells. I'd actually consider guttersnipe before it for myself, but I believe you run more untap effects than I do.
I think I agree with the inner fire cut for expertise, and will be testing accordingly.
I wouldn't cut Inner Fire; the deck needs all the mana production it can get its hands on - no pun intended.
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I wouldn't cut Inner Fire; the deck needs all the mana production it can get its hands on - no pun intended.
I had to really think about where the pun was.
My impression from my times running the deck was that I was casting Inner Fire when I already had plenty of cards and mana (10-20 or more mana) when starting to go off. So for me it was often along the lines of, "eh, might as well so I don't have to worry for a bit". I'll test without it for a while and see. Depends on how the rebuild goes.
I need to write a program to do the math on Precursor and Twinflame/Heat Shimmer so we have that available for the primer stuff.
Sometimes I'd draw into a whole bunch of cards yet run completely out of steam manawise. That's where Inner Fire has helped me tremendously. I have never not been grateful to draw that card. Like ever.
As for Precursor Golem and the copy spells, what's the exact interaction? Maybe I can help you out with the math.
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Targeting Zada would produce standard doubling patterns with extra token production, so the interaction is actually to target a Golem token causing the Precursors to trigger rather than Zada.
Here's where it diverges whether you recast them separately (Past in Flames) or together (Mizzix's Mastery). Due to the triggers, you get much better results separately since there will be more Precursors around to trigger on the fourth casting.
Unfortunately, it is not up to date with my current list and lacks a significant number of the recently printed cards that have made it into my deck. I had been putting it off until it would be compiled into a collaborative primer.
I should be able to find time to post my current list this week.
I wouldn't cut Inner Fire; the deck needs all the mana production it can get its hands on - no pun intended.
I had to really think about where the pun was.
My impression from my times running the deck was that I was casting Inner Fire when I already had plenty of cards and mana (10-20 or more mana) when starting to go off. So for me it was often along the lines of, "eh, might as well so I don't have to worry for a bit". I'll test without it for a while and see. Depends on how the rebuild goes.
I need to write a program to do the math on Precursor and Twinflame/Heat Shimmer so we have that available for the primer stuff.
The balance point between going off entirely and going off enough to win is where inner fire is the most useful in my opinion. There will be times when probability is maintained and the 25-5% chance to run out of cantrips as we go off happens. In these circumstances, inner fire can win a game by fueling a larger hand of 10-15 cards and going with simple pump spells and combat.
Once you have multiple precursors, it gets out of hand very fast. It isn't just that the triggers stack, but they stack and resolve independently. So when you start with 2 precursors and 6 tokens and cast Heat Shimmer at a token, the stack starts as
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Heat Shimmer on token
and then it expands to
7x copy of heat shimmer
precursor trigger
heat shimmer on token
Those 7 copies of heat shimmer resolve now, making 5 new vanilla tokens (which I hereby name jigglypuffs) and 2 precursor tokens making 4 more jigglypuffs, making it 4 precursors and 15 jigglypuffs before the second precursor trigger resolves! So now that the stack has made it back to that, it goes "ok, now to copy that spell for every golem, boy there sure are a lot of them all of a sudden" because that resolving trigger sees the golems made by the heat shimmers that already resolved.
So the second trigger will make a Heat Shimmer for all 4 Precursors and 14 of the jigglypuffs, and the total is up to 8 precursors and 37 jigglypuffs.
Here's where it diverges whether you recast them separately (Past in Flames) or together (Mizzix's Mastery). Due to the triggers, you get much better results separately since there will be more Precursors around to trigger on the fourth casting.
78 Precursor Golems (1 of which is "real")
458 Golem tokens (156 of is "real")
But this is also where there numbers get ridiculous!
Going with the bigger version (because casting them separately does make a lot more tokens), you recast Twinflame with flashback and get 8 Precursor golem triggers each trigger is going to double every golem in play (except the original target) and add the few etb extras.
Start with: 8 and 37
After 1 trigger: 16 and 89
After 2 triggers: 32 and 209
After 3 triggers: 64 and 481
After 4 triggers: 128 and 1089
After 5 triggers: 256 and 2433
After 6 triggers: 512 and 5377
After 7 triggers: 1024 and 11777
After 8 triggers: 2048 and 25601 (+1 from the original spell = 25602)
And then you recast heat shimmer, and numbers cease to be useful. If I have this right, there'd be about 10^620 precursor golems at this point (which is roughly 7-8 times the estimated number of atoms in the observed universe, for reference), but I had to do some hand work cause excel gave up. Even the far worse Mizzix Mastery path ends up with 524,288 Precursor Golems and 10747906 jigglypuffs.
The difference, in math terms, between what you were doing and the truth, is that by expanding all the triggers at once, you were copying each precursor for each precursor each time, which is, ignoring the jigglypuffs, effectively [new#] = [old#] + [old#]^2 each time a copy spell is cast, the actual equation is [new#] = [old#] * 2^[old#], which grows quite a lot faster. And then, god forbid, you decided to aim Overblaze at one of them, you'd have each golem capable of 3*2^(10^620) damage, and I think that's how we get another Time Spiral block.
So I don't know what you'd want to do about giving damage calculations for the primer, but I think "if you can cast a copy spell 4 independent times, every atom in the universe is a token" would probably get the message across pretty well.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Yeah, this is what happens when I do back-of-the-napkin math instead of actually writing a program.
The last time I wrote a program involved a yeah-sure-there's-enough-mana, somewhat naive calculation that centered around just Zada, Krenko, Conscripts, Chancellor, Traitorous Blood and the usual suite of copiers, flashback, 7 arcane spells, Fatal Frenzy, and Temur Battle Rage. The result was roughly 35 trillion creatures (or lands/rocks) and over 320 nonillion (33 digits total) damage. I don't think I'd actually include Conscripts (though stealing everybody else's creatures could be a by-product rather than untapping Krenko).
These results from Precursor would probably blow that out of the water. I really do need to write a version that more accurately depicts the stack.
Math is the language of the universe and that, my friend, is the correct math. You beat me to it! tstorm823's formula is basically what you'd want to add as far as giving numbers is concerned for this combo: Precursor Golem + various copier spells = game over.
Whether your creatures get haste or you have Purphoros in play, it's just insane. If every atom of the universe were playing in a free-for-all against you, you'd pretty much give each of them lethal damage.
How about with normal combat damage? What has been the high score so far? What about fastest win? I keep forgetting to keep track of insane plays because players usually get the gist of it. So if uninterrupted, it's GG. Gotta try to remember the next time.
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Once you have multiple precursors, it gets out of hand very fast. It isn't just that the triggers stack, but they stack and resolve independently. So when you start with 2 precursors and 6 tokens and cast Heat Shimmer at a token, the stack starts as
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Heat Shimmer on token
and then it expands to
7x copy of heat shimmer
precursor trigger
heat shimmer on token
Those 7 copies of heat shimmer resolve now, making 5 new vanilla tokens (which I hereby name jigglypuffs) and 2 precursor tokens making 4 more jigglypuffs, making it 4 precursors and 15 jigglypuffs before the second precursor trigger resolves! So now that the stack has made it back to that, it goes "ok, now to copy that spell for every golem, boy there sure are a lot of them all of a sudden" because that resolving trigger sees the golems made by the heat shimmers that already resolved.
So the second trigger will make a Heat Shimmer for all 4 Precursors and 14 of the jigglypuffs, and the total is up to 8 precursors and 37 jigglypuffs.
Here's where it diverges whether you recast them separately (Past in Flames) or together (Mizzix's Mastery). Due to the triggers, you get much better results separately since there will be more Precursors around to trigger on the fourth casting.
78 Precursor Golems (1 of which is "real")
458 Golem tokens (156 of is "real")
But this is also where there numbers get ridiculous!
Going with the bigger version (because casting them separately does make a lot more tokens), you recast Twinflame with flashback and get 8 Precursor golem triggers each trigger is going to double every golem in play (except the original target) and add the few etb extras.
Start with: 8 and 37
After 1 trigger: 16 and 89
After 2 triggers: 32 and 209
After 3 triggers: 64 and 481
After 4 triggers: 128 and 1089
After 5 triggers: 256 and 2433
After 6 triggers: 512 and 5377
After 7 triggers: 1024 and 11777
After 8 triggers: 2048 and 25601 (+1 from the original spell = 25602)
And then you recast heat shimmer, and numbers cease to be useful. If I have this right, there'd be about 10^620 precursor golems at this point (which is roughly 7-8 times the estimated number of atoms in the observed universe, for reference), but I had to do some hand work cause excel gave up. Even the far worse Mizzix Mastery path ends up with 524,288 Precursor Golems and 10747906 jigglypuffs.
The difference, in math terms, between what you were doing and the truth, is that by expanding all the triggers at once, you were copying each precursor for each precursor each time, which is, ignoring the jigglypuffs, effectively [new#] = [old#] + [old#]^2 each time a copy spell is cast, the actual equation is [new#] = [old#] * 2^[old#], which grows quite a lot faster. And then, god forbid, you decided to aim Overblaze at one of them, you'd have each golem capable of 3*2^(10^620) damage, and I think that's how we get another Time Spiral block.
So I don't know what you'd want to do about giving damage calculations for the primer, but I think "if you can cast a copy spell 4 independent times, every atom in the universe is a token" would probably get the message across pretty well.
I finished the simulation code and this is 99.9% correct. Turns out the only mistake was forgetting the real Heat Shimmer spell targeting a Golem token. So it would have ended with 8 Precursors and 38 jigglypuffs. That off-by-one kept doubling in the 8 triggers from flashing back Twinflame and the final would have been 2,048 Precursors and 25,858 jigglypuffs (including the final single copy of the original spell's target).
I'm not going to list out all the triggers from the fourth iteration of flashing back Heat Shimmer because nobody wants to read that. However, here are the final figures:
6.61852 x 10619 Precursor Golems (66,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488 exactly)
1.36383 x 10623 Golem tokens
(136,382,968,658,909,931,881,192,194,721,334,073,135,339,744,766,729,166,808,519,230,689,767,876,155,499,857,299,725,994,706,053,950,005,834,043,678,682,118,067,846,323,092,864,094,916,059,568,312,263,345,972,942,644,724,061,266,338,967,556,606,288,482,144,624,668,557,399,260,544,973,006,555,726,219,056,832,783,698,814,041,557,934,049,300,309,140,575,385,126,097,475,162,021,835,823,919,056,940,239,245,179,694,547,515,112,076,141,618,420,323,880,243,120,163,981,734,713,418,766,622,939,690,409,088,082,828,446,728,587,824,669,453,520,278,565,099,274,884,612,107,710,408,099,615,197,248,466,281,574,212,923,160,202,675,022,697,956,714,899,727,093,928,719,581,028,220,985,122,067,935,726,751,014,261,650,878,009,859,086,050,268,901,715,214,255,405,023,531,472,033,681,569,591,875,987,953,462,672,664,864,731,102,876,688,361,455,618 exactly)
There aren't even diction words for these numbers and I don't want to bother extending them to figure it out. The estimated bounds of the number of atoms in the known, observable universe is between 1079 and 1081.
Though in practice I'm probably just going to do Twinflame once and then spam some cantrips for 15 cards each first.
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Overloading Mizzix's Mastery to recast both is significantly less since you have to cast both at the same time. You're only triggering 8 Precursors instead of 2,048 so you just get 8 more doublings. The final after that is 524,288 Precursors and 10,813,443 Golem tokens.
Edit: I'll probably continue expanding this for calculating other effects like Krenko, Chancellor, mana generation, buffs and damage, etc. It'd be interesting to eventually expand it to the point that I can simulate goldfish games entirely in it. Then add some predictive help for figuring out the most optimal paths.
I've now updated the list in the OP. I've been testing a build with more of a lean towards make mischief and spawning breath styles of token generation via toughness based pump, because I can play out more tokens from a seemingly less threatening board position. I think it is less explosive, but more sudden. I'm still not entirely convinced that I prefer it, but it has been my build for the past couple months.
I had some success with through the breach during my testing, in effectively the same capacity that others have used sneak attack. It needs a deck with more creature cards (~25) as opposed to my current 15-20 style. It just a matter of choice in creature sources.
I'll need to re-sleeve the creatures that I've tested over time and try the breach build again.
Yeah, creatures that create tokens when entering the battlefield is something that this deck really needs. If the deck ran more creatures, I would definitely run Through the Breach above other things.
One thing I'm considering (albeit winmore) is Crack the Earth. With so many tokens you could essentially wipe the board of all but enough creatures to guarantee the damage.
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I don't see the point of Crack the Earth. If you aim it at Zada by splicing a "target creature" arcane spell you're going to sacrifice almost all of your own permanents. If you had enough creatures already to wipe out your opponents defenses with enough left over to end your opponents then you probably already had enough to take them out in the first place. If your intent is combat damage, the only techniques to have creatures after this are things like Otherworldly Outburst or aim it at a golem or make creatures after the spell is copied (assuming it doesn't kill them). If your intent is to get past a pillowfort that can't be attacked or targeted, there areeasierways.
Am I failing to see a use case that does not look like a pyrrhic victory? As for getting more out of Through the Breach, Cloudstone Curio would allow you to keep dropping and bouncing the same creature cards thereby getting value out of all of the copies of the spell.
I run Cloudstone Curio so now I'm even more intrigued by the madness that Through the Breach will be able to do. My only worry is putting too many cards in the deck that will sit in my hand until their combo piece appears.
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I put together an uber-budget version of this deck a while back and I'm just now revisiting it to slot in the new stuff from the last few sets. There were a few cards I threw in the deck originally (or considered throwing in) that I'm debating pulling out. What do you all think of the following for token generation?
My deck is not tuned and I feel bad playing it very often as gaming group is generally opposed to combo decks, so my number of plays with the deck is fairly low.
Goblinslide is okay since it can basically make any spell produce a goblin token. However, the deck is mana hungry as it is and having each spell potentially cost R more to get a 1/1 goblin token in play may be stretching it out a bit. Flameshadow Conjuring is basically the same thing, however, it gets broken with creatures that create tokens when they enter the battlefield. Again, making spells costs R more could be a bit taxing.
Flamerush Rider is a bit expensive for what it does. My argument will also follow into Thopter Assembly. Sure, it's 1 less than Myr Battlesphere, but does it give tokens when entering the battlefield? You have to wait a full turn to get tokens out of it. And if you made thopters with Pia and Kiran Nalaar then it does nothing.
From what I've tested, the best token producers are instants, sorceries, and creatures that create them when entering the battlefield or dying. Out of all those you've mentioned, maybeGenesis Chamber. However, with all I've tested, there are only four types of cards I'll consider testing for the deck. The card has to have a super unique and/or broken ability to be considered otherwise. And those qualities are:
creates a token as a spell or as a creature entering/leaving play
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I don't get to play my Zada deck very often, since it's signifiantly above the power level of most of the group I play in, but I do update it with every new set for the few times I'm able to play it, and hot damn is Kari Zev's Expertise amazing in this deck. It's so absurdly powerful following up a draw spell. Every time I've cast it with a full grip I've just won shortly afterwards. It does have the downside of being useless on its own, but it saves such a crazy amount of mana that it's worth it.
With every new set that comes out, Wizards keeps including a card here or there that fits into Zada, and honestly I think this archetype is only a few unprinted cards away from being something truly fearsome. We just need a couple more Crimson Wisps type cards and we'll be there.
@Myrmadillo: I have to echo DementedKirby on this, you generally want to play the absolute cheapest forms of token production possible. Luckily in a Zada deck, those are often the cheapest cards in the deck. Goblinslide curves really awkwardly into Zada, and Flameshadow Conjuring is in a weird spot where you'll never want to play it before Zada and it curves horribly after her. I've never personally tested Genesis Chamber either, but Zada decks generally want to make lots of tokens and those don't ineract well with Genesis Chamber, unfortuantely.
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What do you think?
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
The biggest drawback I see is defender, so it can't follow the backup plan if we stall out with only pump spells. I'd actually consider guttersnipe before it for myself, but I believe you run more untap effects than I do.
I think I agree with the inner fire cut for expertise, and will be testing accordingly.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I wanted to avoid swapping it out for spells that gave my creatures at least a +1 in toughness since I run so many spells that ping my own creatures for 1 damage for benefit (Zap, Flare, Make Mischief, Spawning Breath, etc.)
I haven't been able to test it yet, but in theory, I feel this is a good swap. The deck does have ways to produce mana but not a lot of them. At least with this I can give haste (one of the benefits of Reckless Charge) while also being able to cast pretty much any spell since most of them cost 2 or less. I'll probably end up goldfishing to see what'll happen if I don't draw it in a game.
I wouldn't cut Inner Fire; the deck needs all the mana production it can get its hands on - no pun intended.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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My impression from my times running the deck was that I was casting Inner Fire when I already had plenty of cards and mana (10-20 or more mana) when starting to go off. So for me it was often along the lines of, "eh, might as well so I don't have to worry for a bit". I'll test without it for a while and see. Depends on how the rebuild goes.
I need to write a program to do the math on Precursor and Twinflame/Heat Shimmer so we have that available for the primer stuff.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
As for Precursor Golem and the copy spells, what's the exact interaction? Maybe I can help you out with the math.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Targeting Zada would produce standard doubling patterns with extra token production, so the interaction is actually to target a Golem token causing the Precursors to trigger rather than Zada.
My results (feel free to double-check these):
The path using Past in Flames:
10123 Golem tokens (3612 of which are "real")
458 Golem tokens (156 of is "real")
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Unfortunately, it is not up to date with my current list and lacks a significant number of the recently printed cards that have made it into my deck. I had been putting it off until it would be compiled into a collaborative primer.
I should be able to find time to post my current list this week.
The balance point between going off entirely and going off enough to win is where inner fire is the most useful in my opinion. There will be times when probability is maintained and the 25-5% chance to run out of cantrips as we go off happens. In these circumstances, inner fire can win a game by fueling a larger hand of 10-15 cards and going with simple pump spells and combat.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
You got it right that it triggers for every Precursor and copies for every golem, but the stack of things gets a lot more fun.
Once you have multiple precursors, it gets out of hand very fast. It isn't just that the triggers stack, but they stack and resolve independently. So when you start with 2 precursors and 6 tokens and cast Heat Shimmer at a token, the stack starts as
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Heat Shimmer on token
and then it expands to
7x copy of heat shimmer
precursor trigger
heat shimmer on token
Those 7 copies of heat shimmer resolve now, making 5 new vanilla tokens (which I hereby name jigglypuffs) and 2 precursor tokens making 4 more jigglypuffs, making it 4 precursors and 15 jigglypuffs before the second precursor trigger resolves! So now that the stack has made it back to that, it goes "ok, now to copy that spell for every golem, boy there sure are a lot of them all of a sudden" because that resolving trigger sees the golems made by the heat shimmers that already resolved.
So the second trigger will make a Heat Shimmer for all 4 Precursors and 14 of the jigglypuffs, and the total is up to 8 precursors and 37 jigglypuffs.
But this is also where there numbers get ridiculous!
Going with the bigger version (because casting them separately does make a lot more tokens), you recast Twinflame with flashback and get 8 Precursor golem triggers each trigger is going to double every golem in play (except the original target) and add the few etb extras.
Start with: 8 and 37
After 1 trigger: 16 and 89
After 2 triggers: 32 and 209
After 3 triggers: 64 and 481
After 4 triggers: 128 and 1089
After 5 triggers: 256 and 2433
After 6 triggers: 512 and 5377
After 7 triggers: 1024 and 11777
After 8 triggers: 2048 and 25601 (+1 from the original spell = 25602)
And then you recast heat shimmer, and numbers cease to be useful. If I have this right, there'd be about 10^620 precursor golems at this point (which is roughly 7-8 times the estimated number of atoms in the observed universe, for reference), but I had to do some hand work cause excel gave up. Even the far worse Mizzix Mastery path ends up with 524,288 Precursor Golems and 10747906 jigglypuffs.
The difference, in math terms, between what you were doing and the truth, is that by expanding all the triggers at once, you were copying each precursor for each precursor each time, which is, ignoring the jigglypuffs, effectively [new#] = [old#] + [old#]^2 each time a copy spell is cast, the actual equation is [new#] = [old#] * 2^[old#], which grows quite a lot faster. And then, god forbid, you decided to aim Overblaze at one of them, you'd have each golem capable of 3*2^(10^620) damage, and I think that's how we get another Time Spiral block.
So I don't know what you'd want to do about giving damage calculations for the primer, but I think "if you can cast a copy spell 4 independent times, every atom in the universe is a token" would probably get the message across pretty well.
The last time I wrote a program involved a yeah-sure-there's-enough-mana, somewhat naive calculation that centered around just Zada, Krenko, Conscripts, Chancellor, Traitorous Blood and the usual suite of copiers, flashback, 7 arcane spells, Fatal Frenzy, and Temur Battle Rage. The result was roughly 35 trillion creatures (or lands/rocks) and over 320 nonillion (33 digits total) damage. I don't think I'd actually include Conscripts (though stealing everybody else's creatures could be a by-product rather than untapping Krenko).
These results from Precursor would probably blow that out of the water. I really do need to write a version that more accurately depicts the stack.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Player: So, I aim the first Heat Shimmer at a golem token and that makes...
Everyone else: We're gonna go get pizza. You can let us know how you won when we get back.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Whether your creatures get haste or you have Purphoros in play, it's just insane. If every atom of the universe were playing in a free-for-all against you, you'd pretty much give each of them lethal damage.
How about with normal combat damage? What has been the high score so far? What about fastest win? I keep forgetting to keep track of insane plays because players usually get the gist of it. So if uninterrupted, it's GG. Gotta try to remember the next time.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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I'm not going to list out all the triggers from the fourth iteration of flashing back Heat Shimmer because nobody wants to read that. However, here are the final figures:
6.61852 x 10619 Precursor Golems (66,185,228,434,044,942,951,864,067,458,396,061,614,989,522,267,577,311,297,802,947,435,570,493,724,401,440,549,267,868,490,798,926,773,634,494,383,968,047,143,923,956,857,140,205,406,402,740,536,087,446,083,831,052,036,848,232,439,995,904,404,992,798,007,514,718,326,043,410,570,379,830,870,463,780,085,260,619,444,417,205,199,197,123,751,210,704,970,352,727,833,755,425,876,102,776,028,267,313,405,809,429,548,880,554,782,040,765,277,562,828,362,884,238,325,465,448,520,348,307,574,943,345,990,309,941,642,666,926,723,379,729,598,185,834,735,054,732,500,415,409,883,868,361,423,159,913,770,812,218,772,711,901,772,249,553,153,402,287,759,789,517,121,744,336,755,350,465,901,655,205,184,917,370,974,202,405,586,941,211,065,395,540,765,567,663,193,297,173,367,254,230,313,612,244,182,941,999,500,402,388,195,450,053,080,383,488 exactly)
1.36383 x 10623 Golem tokens
(136,382,968,658,909,931,881,192,194,721,334,073,135,339,744,766,729,166,808,519,230,689,767,876,155,499,857,299,725,994,706,053,950,005,834,043,678,682,118,067,846,323,092,864,094,916,059,568,312,263,345,972,942,644,724,061,266,338,967,556,606,288,482,144,624,668,557,399,260,544,973,006,555,726,219,056,832,783,698,814,041,557,934,049,300,309,140,575,385,126,097,475,162,021,835,823,919,056,940,239,245,179,694,547,515,112,076,141,618,420,323,880,243,120,163,981,734,713,418,766,622,939,690,409,088,082,828,446,728,587,824,669,453,520,278,565,099,274,884,612,107,710,408,099,615,197,248,466,281,574,212,923,160,202,675,022,697,956,714,899,727,093,928,719,581,028,220,985,122,067,935,726,751,014,261,650,878,009,859,086,050,268,901,715,214,255,405,023,531,472,033,681,569,591,875,987,953,462,672,664,864,731,102,876,688,361,455,618 exactly)
There aren't even diction words for these numbers and I don't want to bother extending them to figure it out. The estimated bounds of the number of atoms in the known, observable universe is between 1079 and 1081.
Though in practice I'm probably just going to do Twinflame once and then spam some cantrips for 15 cards each first.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Overloading Mizzix's Mastery to recast both is significantly less since you have to cast both at the same time. You're only triggering 8 Precursors instead of 2,048 so you just get 8 more doublings. The final after that is 524,288 Precursors and 10,813,443 Golem tokens.
Edit: I'll probably continue expanding this for calculating other effects like Krenko, Chancellor, mana generation, buffs and damage, etc. It'd be interesting to eventually expand it to the point that I can simulate goldfish games entirely in it. Then add some predictive help for figuring out the most optimal paths.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
With all these very interesting conversation on precursor golem and heat shimmer, I may try out through the breach again, which I had tested with chancellor of the forge.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
... does some research ...
Oh, it's because of a Modern deck with it, Primeval Titan, Search for Tomorrow, and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. I should probably aim some store credit at a copy of that before it goes up should Modern Masters 2017 not reprint it.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I'll need to re-sleeve the creatures that I've tested over time and try the breach build again.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
One thing I'm considering (albeit winmore) is Crack the Earth. With so many tokens you could essentially wipe the board of all but enough creatures to guarantee the damage.
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Am I failing to see a use case that does not look like a pyrrhic victory?
As for getting more out of Through the Breach, Cloudstone Curio would allow you to keep dropping and bouncing the same creature cards thereby getting value out of all of the copies of the spell.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I run Cloudstone Curio so now I'm even more intrigued by the madness that Through the Breach will be able to do. My only worry is putting too many cards in the deck that will sit in my hand until their combo piece appears.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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Enchantments:
Goblinslide
Flameshadow Conjuring (also, Genesis Chamber)
Creatures:
Flamerush Rider (also, Felhide Spiritbinder, Satyr Nyx-Smith)
Thopter Assembly (cheaper than Myr Battlesphere)
My deck is not tuned and I feel bad playing it very often as gaming group is generally opposed to combo decks, so my number of plays with the deck is fairly low.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Flamerush Rider is a bit expensive for what it does. My argument will also follow into Thopter Assembly. Sure, it's 1 less than Myr Battlesphere, but does it give tokens when entering the battlefield? You have to wait a full turn to get tokens out of it. And if you made thopters with Pia and Kiran Nalaar then it does nothing.
From what I've tested, the best token producers are instants, sorceries, and creatures that create them when entering the battlefield or dying. Out of all those you've mentioned, maybe Genesis Chamber. However, with all I've tested, there are only four types of cards I'll consider testing for the deck. The card has to have a super unique and/or broken ability to be considered otherwise. And those qualities are:
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
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With every new set that comes out, Wizards keeps including a card here or there that fits into Zada, and honestly I think this archetype is only a few unprinted cards away from being something truly fearsome. We just need a couple more Crimson Wisps type cards and we'll be there.
@Myrmadillo: I have to echo DementedKirby on this, you generally want to play the absolute cheapest forms of token production possible. Luckily in a Zada deck, those are often the cheapest cards in the deck. Goblinslide curves really awkwardly into Zada, and Flameshadow Conjuring is in a weird spot where you'll never want to play it before Zada and it curves horribly after her. I've never personally tested Genesis Chamber either, but Zada decks generally want to make lots of tokens and those don't ineract well with Genesis Chamber, unfortuantely.