What do you all think of Abbot of Keral Keep? I'm not enthusiastic about the "impulsive draw" and it's sort of a nonbo with splice effects but it's the closest we can get to Elvish Visionary and the prowess isn't irrelevant. Could be kind of win-more I guess?
I haven't actually considered Abbot of Keral Keep yet, and I don't know how the card escaped my notice for so long. I feel like it's probably a very good card in this deck. It's great with Twinflame and Heat Shimmer, and it's probably better than one of the creatures currently in the deck. It's underwhelming turn 2, but any turn after that it should be great, even if it's just getting a land off the top of your deck.
I'd rather wait until I have Scroll Rack in the deck before trying Abbot of Keral Keep so I can stack the top cards for him. But then I'd pretty much have to depend on having him in play. First Abbot is 1 card, first copy (Twinflame/Heat Shimmer) for 2 total, then the other for 4 total. Flashback one then gets 4 more for 8 total, then the other for another 8 for 16 total. So you could "re-access" cards you've put in the library and make sure you're not going to accidentally exile Overblaze or Desperate Ritual. Unless you like to gamble.
Just be aware that if you exile a land with him, playing that land counts toward the number of lands per turn you can play. So if you played a land already and plop him down and turn over a land, you're SOL.
I like how well the abbot plays with our gameplan, and I hadn't even thought about testing it. Supplying a creature to copy, plus accessing more of the deck sounds excellent at first. I should test this out, probably in the slot of thopter engineer. I do agree with comments from Admiral Sultan and lyonhaert that were made while I was away. There are some circumstances where the abbot could backfire (desperate ritual being exiled) or just plain whiff (second land of turn). Even despite these risks I think it's worth looking into.
Fog and its various cousins I can get around with the direct-damage creatures when I have instances of Overblaze. I hadn't thought about Deflecting Palm but that's a good one, too. I know one of my friends runs Safe Passage, though, which would prevent both combat and direct damage. That's the main thing Flaring Pain is for, but I've had Comeuppance used against me, too.
Edit: I should also mention that I'll likely put Command Beacon in and take Ally Encampment out. I usually don't have the 1 available for activating it in response to something.
RE: damage prevention; I suppose the timing for casting that these effects is somewhat critical to determine whether it's important to metagame against. I've been blown out by spells like comeuppance and cyclonic rift just like everyone else, but my adaptation has been keep something in reserve to respond with. If I can get around the cards by using the stack differently, I'd rather do that than go down a card slot. Obviously this doesn't work if someone cast safe passage during my upkeep, but it's worked for me so far.
I see your point. If I think I could have a shot at getting around Deflecting Palm with instant-speed stuff, then I could do the same with Safe Passage, at least with that player.
I've already put in Command Beacon in place of Ally Encampment. I'll find something to slot back in and take Flaring Pain out and just see if FP ends up actually being needed.
2 alternates:
Mind Stone for Memory Jar
Insurrection for Wheel of Fortune
That looks like a rather solid midrange build for Zada. You're at a higher curve with the ramp to match it, and it lets you play with some awesome cards (I really wish I could fit chancellor of the forge). Having not built for a more typical token build please note that my experience is rather limit in that respect. It has also been brought to my attention that my playgroup might let me keep Zada out more often than some other groups.
That said, my first suggestion is to consider young pyromancer, twinflame, and heat shimmer. Zada decks tend to play well with higher creature counts, while also packing high densities of instants and sorceries. The copying cards play well with any and all token producing creatures, exploding the battlefield for a turn, while also providing long term tokens as created by the copies. Young pyromancer works in the opposite direction, dropping out tokens for free as you play the same cards that would be ideal anyways.
My second suggestion is fiery gambit. If you're able to stick 10+ creatures with Zada, it's statistically likely to be a turnabout + draw 9. If your creature count is even higher it can be outright lethal for your opponents.
You're playing every variant of caged sun and goblin welder. Out of all the lists that I've seen, this setup is most likely to capitalize well on zap or flare as huge cantrips by using the extra point of toughness and Zada. My list runs low to the ground and I can't often risk blowing myself out with those cantrips. Similarly, this makes spawning breath more feasible as a sort of twinflame that can also function as a ritual.
Again, I must emphasize than most of my recommendations are targeting a board state that includes Zada surviving and shooting for 1-2 explosive turns to finish all opponents. I hope that helped.
Most folks I play with would say, "I have to attack every turn? Okay, I'll attack you." I sometimes take Ruination out and put From the Ashes in, though, depending on the playgroup.
Most folks I play with would say, "I have to attack every turn? Okay, I'll attack you." I sometimes take Ruination out and put From the Ashes in, though, depending on the playgroup.
That's a great suggestion. I like adapting the deck to different groups. I have one group that has a crazy Kozi player and a few Prossh decks. Of course From the Ashes with Stranglehold is not very nice
I just looked through the decklist posted in the indecision thread on the main commander page. How did I not know that credit voucher was a second scroll rack for me? The slightly higher cost and inability to reuse it may keep it from surviving testing, but I didn't even know that card existed.
Edit: And as somebody else pointed out in a different thread, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled also shuts down searches, which fits Kaervek's colors. Don't know what stuff you already have in it.
I updated my list last night and will post when I get home from work with my possible alternate slots. Was able to find a Wheel of Fortune and picked up a Young Pyro also. Slotted in Chaotic Strike as well.
I just looked through the decklist posted in the indecision thread on the main commander page. How did I not know that credit voucher was a second scroll rack for me? The slightly higher cost and inability to reuse it may keep it from surviving testing, but I didn't even know that card existed.
I'm very happy to hear of your interest in Credit Voucher. I really wish I could afford Scroll Rack, but that's a bit too much for me. Credit Voucher runs as an okay replacement, but it is still lacking. I've had to throw in Commune with Lava to make up for the lack in hand sculpting. Important aspects of Voucher: It shuffles the cards back into your library. This can be good or bad, but I'd generally prefer Scroll Rack's implementation allowing you to stack the top cards. The other aspect is that it draws the cards. Good for Psychosis Crawler, one of my favorite cards. Crawler CMC is pretty high for this deck, though. It's probably optimal not to run it, but I have a personal attachment.
I've also wondered about your usage of Portent of Betrayal. It seems a little costly for what, to me, seems to be a card that is just Scry 1 and haste. Without pumping toughness there aren't any other efficient scry effects, but is it worth the 4 mana investment? I feel like I'm missing something, or maybe I don't value Scry highly enough.
For finishers, I'm not a fan of Firestorm. I haven't tested it at all, but I feel like you're going to run out of targets before you get to lethal levels of damage. I'm running Conflagrate and it tends to get discarded and ignored. I think I just run enough alternate wins through Purphoros, God of the Forge and Psychosis Crawler.
With regard to Abbot of Keral Keep... I don't like it. The chance of a backfire seems too great. If you exile an arcane spell, then you can no longer splice it onto another Arcane spell. If we're going to be Twinflameing or Heat Shimmering, I don't know that we're going to need access to more cards. At this point, card draw should be covered by our cantrips. Before this point, we want more creatures. I also don't think Prowess is ever going to make that much of a difference. If my creatures are swinging, they tend to all have large power boosts. A few prowess triggers isn't that impactful.
Comparing Abbot to Thopter Engineer:
2 mana for a creature and maybe a useful card vs 3 mana for a creature and a flying token. Cantripping here gives us 2 cards from the abbot and 2 cards from the engineer.
One Twinflame later: An extra creature and maybe a useful card vs an extra engi and 2 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 4 cards from Abbot and 5 from Thopter.
Two Twinflames: Two extra creatures and two cards vs two extra engis and 5 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 8 cards from Abbot and 12 from Thopter.
And finally, three Twinflames: 4 extra creatures and 4 more cards vs 4 more engis and 12 new flying tokens.
I can see how the Abbot can be beneficial because you don't need a cantrip for value, but the exponential power of the Engi seems too strong to me.
I've also wondered about your usage of Portent of Betrayal. It seems a little costly for what, to me, seems to be a card that is just Scry 1 and haste. Without pumping toughness there aren't any other efficient scry effects, but is it worth the 4 mana investment? I feel like I'm missing something, or maybe I don't value Scry highly enough.
So if you have Zada and 9 other creatures and cast that on her, you get the original Portent and 9 copies of it. So you start resolving your instances of scry 1, digging for something you want if you have a cantrip, or just digging for a cantrip. Then you can actually cast an instant cantrip and resolve those draws before resolving the rest of the scry 1 effects. Don't forget it also untaps your creatures, in case you run Krenko.
For finishers, I'm not a fan of Firestorm. I haven't tested it at all, but I feel like you're going to run out of targets before you get to lethal levels of damage. I'm running Conflagrate and it tends to get discarded and ignored. I think I just run enough alternate wins through Purphoros, God of the Forge and Psychosis Crawler.
Yes, the only way it's going to be a huge advantage is if you can kill other players with it. Unless they're a pure lifegain deck and somehow doubled their life by turn 6/7, it's not that hard with Zada to draw 40 cards and have at least 37 of your own creatures to target. Just target everything but you. You're probably doing enough damage with Purphoros and Crawler that you don't have to worry about it, though.
On the subject of Firestorm, in any game where I've had enough cards in my hand to go for lethal damage, I've never actually failed to use Firestorm. Generally at that point I've gone off and I have a horde of tokens that I can target in order to get up to what I need to kill my opponents. If I don't have a horde of tokens, or I can't make one immediately, the chances of me having greater than 40 cards in my hand are pretty slim. Conflagrate needs too much mana for it to do what Firestorm does to an entire table. Firestorm just needs bodies and cards, and this deck is unqiuely suited to providing both. The thing I don't like about Purphoros, God of the Forge in this deck is that he shares a mana cost with Zada, which is *super* awkward. He also often won't provide a body for Zada's ability either, so you're going to have to waste a turn playing him, spend either the turn before casting him or the turn after casting him playing Zada. He's also really bad if you draw him at the end of 'going off'. Same goes for Psychosis Crawler, although it doesn't even give you the ability to play it turn 4. Both cards are probably going to have to spend an entire turn rotation sitting on the board before they do enough to warrant having played them, whereas Firestorm can just end a game instantly. Fiery Gambit is similar.
I agree that Abbot of Keral Keep isn't as good as Thopter Engineer, as token producers are the most important cards in the deck, but they're not really competing for the same slot. It 'backfiring' isn't really that huge of a deal, because even if it exiles one of the cards we want and we can't use it, it's functionally the same thing as if we'd never drawn that card. It's sort of like how milling someone isn't actually a form of disruption. Abbot is more in contention with another value spell or a value creature.
I personally would run Abbot alongside Thopter Engineer when i get an Abbot to test, as they do very different things. I'm not sure what to cut for it yet. My list is midrange-ier than most of the lists in this thread but not as midrange-y as Hipster Mike's. For example, I play PT-boosting Goblin lords as well as Brute Force, Titan's Strength, Fury Charm, and Eldrazi Monument to make Zap and Spawning Breath better, but not so many expensive cards that the mana-doublers are necessary.
The only arcane cards I would be unhappy to flip off of Abbot are Overblaze and Desperate Ritual, everything else is fine to hit in my opinion.
I just looked through the decklist posted in the indecision thread on the main commander page. How did I not know that credit voucher was a second scroll rack for me? The slightly higher cost and inability to reuse it may keep it from surviving testing, but I didn't even know that card existed.
I'm very happy to hear of your interest in Credit Voucher. I really wish I could afford Scroll Rack, but that's a bit too much for me. Credit Voucher runs as an okay replacement, but it is still lacking. I've had to throw in Commune with Lava to make up for the lack in hand sculpting. Important aspects of Voucher: It shuffles the cards back into your library. This can be good or bad, but I'd generally prefer Scroll Rack's implementation allowing you to stack the top cards. The other aspect is that it draws the cards. Good for Psychosis Crawler, one of my favorite cards. Crawler CMC is pretty high for this deck, though. It's probably optimal not to run it, but I have a personal attachment.
I've also wondered about your usage of Portent of Betrayal. It seems a little costly for what, to me, seems to be a card that is just Scry 1 and haste. Without pumping toughness there aren't any other efficient scry effects, but is it worth the 4 mana investment? I feel like I'm missing something, or maybe I don't value Scry highly enough.
For finishers, I'm not a fan of Firestorm. I haven't tested it at all, but I feel like you're going to run out of targets before you get to lethal levels of damage. I'm running Conflagrate and it tends to get discarded and ignored. I think I just run enough alternate wins through Purphoros, God of the Forge and Psychosis Crawler.
With regard to Abbot of Keral Keep... I don't like it. The chance of a backfire seems too great. If you exile an arcane spell, then you can no longer splice it onto another Arcane spell. If we're going to be Twinflameing or Heat Shimmering, I don't know that we're going to need access to more cards. At this point, card draw should be covered by our cantrips. Before this point, we want more creatures. I also don't think Prowess is ever going to make that much of a difference. If my creatures are swinging, they tend to all have large power boosts. A few prowess triggers isn't that impactful.
Comparing Abbot to Thopter Engineer:
2 mana for a creature and maybe a useful card vs 3 mana for a creature and a flying token. Cantripping here gives us 2 cards from the abbot and 2 cards from the engineer.
One Twinflame later: An extra creature and maybe a useful card vs an extra engi and 2 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 4 cards from Abbot and 5 from Thopter.
Two Twinflames: Two extra creatures and two cards vs two extra engis and 5 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 8 cards from Abbot and 12 from Thopter.
And finally, three Twinflames: 4 extra creatures and 4 more cards vs 4 more engis and 12 new flying tokens.
I can see how the Abbot can be beneficial because you don't need a cantrip for value, but the exponential power of the Engi seems too strong to me.
Portent of Betrayal is probably one of my most flexible card slots. I play it for two reasons, and it has a reasonable backup plan as well. First, it is a scry effect that gives haste. While this is beneficial, it does not excuse the mana cost without some other impact or use, as I don't value scry 1 that much. Second is the use of untapping tapped creatures. The largest impact this provides currently is untapping Krenko, to double the goblins again. Other builds may allow this to work with goblin welder (reuse credit voucher) or elemental mastery (see krenko). If neither of these uses apply, it can still be used to borrow an opposing creature to increase the creature count. This slot could become traitorous blood to lower manacosts and provide trample. I've been playing the card for a while and still am not entirely sold on its inclusion.
Firestorm is the backup plan, and typically is my out to something not going quite as planned. When the cantrips start filling my hand, it is not difficult to play out creatures/tokens as they come and end up with 30 creatures. From here a single cantrip provides enough cards that the R for firestorm is the last component to winning. Firestorm won't do much of anything until we're going off already, which makes it win-more in a way. However, it is the most effective response to disruption once we're about to go for the kill. I mentioned this a page or so back, but an all-in Zada build can get blown out by anything from a fog to deflecting palm. In these situations, directdamagecreatures (which would be my preferred response to disruption) may not be on the battlefield yet. Firestorm provides a way around these circumstances, while costing less mana than it's nearest competitor (IMHO through the breach to get those creature out and usable).
You and others have made a good point for thopter engineer vs. Abbot of Keral Keep, and the testing I have so far agrees. I wanted to keep approximate mana costs and slot categories about the same, and made an undesirable exchange. I still will be testing abbot, but I should reconsider slots.
On the subject of Firestorm, in any game where I've had enough cards in my hand to go for lethal damage, I've never actually failed to use Firestorm. Generally at that point I've gone off and I have a horde of tokens that I can target in order to get up to what I need to kill my opponents. If I don't have a horde of tokens, or I can't make one immediately, the chances of me having greater than 40 cards in my hand are pretty slim. Conflagrate needs too much mana for it to do what Firestorm does to an entire table. Firestorm just needs bodies and cards, and this deck is unqiuely suited to providing both. The thing I don't like about Purphoros, God of the Forge in this deck is that he shares a mana cost with Zada, which is *super* awkward. He also often won't provide a body for Zada's ability either, so you're going to have to waste a turn playing him, spend either the turn before casting him or the turn after casting him playing Zada. He's also really bad if you draw him at the end of 'going off'. Same goes for Psychosis Crawler, although it doesn't even give you the ability to play it turn 4. Both cards are probably going to have to spend an entire turn rotation sitting on the board before they do enough to warrant having played them, whereas Firestorm can just end a game instantly. Fiery Gambit is similar.
I agree that Abbot of Keral Keep isn't as good as Thopter Engineer, as token producers are the most important cards in the deck, but they're not really competing for the same slot. It 'backfiring' isn't really that huge of a deal, because even if it exiles one of the cards we want and we can't use it, it's functionally the same thing as if we'd never drawn that card. It's sort of like how milling someone isn't actually a form of disruption. Abbot is more in contention with another value spell or a value creature.
I agree. There a a large number of excellent cards that work with this deck's gameplan; but Purphoros, Psychosis crawler, possibility storm and others cost too much mana. Impact tremors could slip in at its cost, but the impact is lower. In general, paying more than 3 mana for a card that needs to come down while we're preparing or as we go off is just not feasible for my gameplan. Trying to keep costs low and explosiveness high is what I believe is the most effective route for a storm zada build.
I personally would run Abbot alongside Thopter Engineer when i get an Abbot to test, as they do very different things. I'm not sure what to cut for it yet. My list is midrange-ier than most of the lists in this thread but not as midrange-y as Hipster Mike's. For example, I play PT-boosting Goblin lords as well as Brute Force, Titan's Strength, Fury Charm, and Eldrazi Monument to make Zap and Spawning Breath better, but not so many expensive cards that the mana-doublers are necessary.
The only arcane cards I would be unhappy to flip off of Abbot are Overblaze and Desperate Ritual, everything else is fine to hit in my opinion.
I'm glad to hear that zap works somewhere, but it's probably never going to make my list because of the required density of toughness-increasing cards. Am I correct in assuming you also play arcbond with that eldrazi monument? That's another card that I wanted to play initially.
crazy monkey, I was able to fit Heat Shimmer and Twinflame back in along with a few other suggestions. Playing a lot o games tomorrow for NYE and I'll try to have my new list up tonight for any last minute tips
I'm beginning to think I should just make two Zadas: One for explosive and ridiculous games that end in a turn and one that's a bit more grindy and mid-range. I think I've known and just didn't want to admit that Psychosis Crawler and Purphoros, God of the Forge are a bit too slow and awkward for the deck.
lyonheart thanks for the explanation. I remember reading the "Scry a bunch, cantrip while scrying" before, but I don't think it really clicked. I'm still not sure if it's worth 4 mana when it only combos with Krenko, but there aren't many other options here. I'm going to think about slotting this in.
I can't afford a Phyrexian Altar. I'm wondering if you think Thermopod is worth running if you can't budget for the Altar. Ashnod's Altar is the closest comparison I have, but colorless mana is almost useless. I don't have many other options, so I'm going to attempt Thermopod. I'm often finding myself short on rituals.
I do play Arcbond, but it hasn't yet accomplished anything and I'm leaning toward cutting it for Treasonous Ogre, a card that I love but don't play because winning with Arcbond requires having the highest life total at the table (or Gratuitous Violence, I guess).
I'm beginning to think I should just make two Zadas: One for explosive and ridiculous games that end in a turn and one that's a bit more grindy and mid-range. I think I've known and just didn't want to admit that Psychosis Crawler and Purphoros, God of the Forge are a bit too slow and awkward for the deck.
lyonheart thanks for the explanation. I remember reading the "Scry a bunch, cantrip while scrying" before, but I don't think it really clicked. I'm still not sure if it's worth 4 mana when it only combos with Krenko, but there aren't many other options here. I'm going to think about slotting this in.
I can't afford a Phyrexian Altar. I'm wondering if you think Thermopod is worth running if you can't budget for the Altar. Ashnod's Altar is the closest comparison I have, but colorless mana is almost useless. I don't have many other options, so I'm going to attempt Thermopod. I'm often finding myself short on rituals.
I'd definitely look into treasonous ogre before thermopod or phyrexian altar. Sacrificing creatures isn't very desirable, and these cards are more of a bridge between the more effective ritual effects. If you already play treasonous ogre, then thermopod may be a reasonable consideration. It needs to be fairly consistently performing about as well as mana geyser at the same cost. I would not recommend ashnod's altar; you're correct that colorless mana just isn't very useful.
I'll be interested in knowing your results with thermopod.
I do play Arcbond, but it hasn't yet accomplished anything and I'm leaning toward cutting it for Treasonous Ogre, a card that I love but don't play because winning with Arcbond requires having the highest life total at the table (or Gratuitous Violence, I guess).
I had never considered that playing arcbond might require a certain life total. I was rather certain than any single trigger of arcbond would be dealing triple digit damage in my build, and it would just be exploding the table. I suppose it depends on the quantity of the initial damage. If it were zap, it would need to hit a creature with 3 instances of overblaze (8) then the second trigger to resolve would be for 64. I thought that it would (likely) be redundant, or a different style of firestorm in response to disruption, and my direct damage would be spawning breath.
Priest of Urabrask is the only leftover from a time when I tried out free creatures (crookshank kobolds, crimson kobolds, kobolds of kher keep, phyrexian walker, memnite, and ornithopter) as a way to increase creature count with minimal (0) mana investment. Most of these did work, but were dead draws too often, and only providing a single creature wasn't as helpful as I'd initially thought. Priest, however, interacts well with cost reduction and very well with heat shimmer/twinflame to help those cards pay for themselves and keep the mana pool just full enough to keep going. This doesn't happen every game, but that synergy has kept me from running out of gas enough times to notice it.
You're definitely right that after a couple Overblaze (or Gratuitous Violence, which for whatever reason I thought only doubled damage to opponents and their creatures), Arcbond is usually a suicide move because you'll be dealing enough damage to kill yourself at the same time as everyone else. In theory it's a way to win without combat, but Fiery Gambit serves that role just as well without killing me in the process. I've only actually cast Arcbond once and it was as a wrath when I wasn't ready to go off and had to block a lethal alpha strike from a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury player. It'll get dropped for Treasonous Ogre after OGW comes out and i pick up a Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
I want to start off by saying thanks to almost everyone on this thread for the excellent indepth and though provoking discussion. It has given me loads to think about and a solid starting point for what I though would just be a janky glass cannon of a deck.
I guess as an outside looking in the whole Arcane package seems inconsistent and forced by being in mono red due to lack of tutoring and card card. How often does it actually "go off" ? Is just from the mass card draw of many copies of Crimson Wisps type cards?
I like how well the abbot plays with our gameplan, and I hadn't even thought about testing it. Supplying a creature to copy, plus accessing more of the deck sounds excellent at first. I should test this out, probably in the slot of thopter engineer. I do agree with comments from Admiral Sultan and lyonhaert that were made while I was away. There are some circumstances where the abbot could backfire (desperate ritual being exiled) or just plain whiff (second land of turn). Even despite these risks I think it's worth looking into.
RE: damage prevention; I suppose the timing for casting that these effects is somewhat critical to determine whether it's important to metagame against. I've been blown out by spells like comeuppance and cyclonic rift just like everyone else, but my adaptation has been keep something in reserve to respond with. If I can get around the cards by using the stack differently, I'd rather do that than go down a card slot. Obviously this doesn't work if someone cast safe passage during my upkeep, but it's worked for me so far.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
I've already put in Command Beacon in place of Ally Encampment. I'll find something to slot back in and take Flaring Pain out and just see if FP ends up actually being needed.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Mind Stone
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Gauntlet of Might
1 Pyromancer's Goggles
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Caged Sun
Planeswalkers : 1
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
Enchantments : 5
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Blood Moon
1 Stranglehold
1 In the Web of War
1 Possibility Storm
Instants : 9
1 Panic
1 Crimson Wisps
1 Aleatory
1 Stun
1 Accelerate
1 Boiling Blood
1 Downhill Charge
1 Chaos Warp
1 Balduvian Rage
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Reckless Charge
1 Vandalblast
1 Gamble
1 Dragon Fodder
1 Hordeling Outburst
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Past In Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Descent of the Dragons
1 Insurrection
1 Last Chance
1 Ruination
1 Krenko's Command
Creatures : 22
1 Signal Pest
1 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Wardriver
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Matron
1 Magus of the Wheel
1 Feldon of the Third Path
1 Anger
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Marton Stromgald
1 Beetleback Chief
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Moggcatcher
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Dragon Mage
1 Ghirapur Gearcrafter
1 Thopter Engineer
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Temple of the False God
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
26 Mountain
2 alternates:
Mind Stone for Memory Jar
Insurrection for Wheel of Fortune
That looks like a rather solid midrange build for Zada. You're at a higher curve with the ramp to match it, and it lets you play with some awesome cards (I really wish I could fit chancellor of the forge). Having not built for a more typical token build please note that my experience is rather limit in that respect. It has also been brought to my attention that my playgroup might let me keep Zada out more often than some other groups.
That said, my first suggestion is to consider young pyromancer, twinflame, and heat shimmer. Zada decks tend to play well with higher creature counts, while also packing high densities of instants and sorceries. The copying cards play well with any and all token producing creatures, exploding the battlefield for a turn, while also providing long term tokens as created by the copies. Young pyromancer works in the opposite direction, dropping out tokens for free as you play the same cards that would be ideal anyways.
My second suggestion is fiery gambit. If you're able to stick 10+ creatures with Zada, it's statistically likely to be a turnabout + draw 9. If your creature count is even higher it can be outright lethal for your opponents.
You're playing every variant of caged sun and goblin welder. Out of all the lists that I've seen, this setup is most likely to capitalize well on zap or flare as huge cantrips by using the extra point of toughness and Zada. My list runs low to the ground and I can't often risk blowing myself out with those cantrips. Similarly, this makes spawning breath more feasible as a sort of twinflame that can also function as a ritual.
Again, I must emphasize than most of my recommendations are targeting a board state that includes Zada surviving and shooting for 1-2 explosive turns to finish all opponents. I hope that helped.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
That's a great suggestion. I like adapting the deck to different groups. I have one group that has a crazy Kozi player and a few Prossh decks. Of course From the Ashes with Stranglehold is not very nice
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
also, from the ashes + stranglehold is just the right amount of evil. I need that in Haterade.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Edit: And as somebody else pointed out in a different thread, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled also shuts down searches, which fits Kaervek's colors. Don't know what stuff you already have in it.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I'm very happy to hear of your interest in Credit Voucher. I really wish I could afford Scroll Rack, but that's a bit too much for me. Credit Voucher runs as an okay replacement, but it is still lacking. I've had to throw in Commune with Lava to make up for the lack in hand sculpting. Important aspects of Voucher: It shuffles the cards back into your library. This can be good or bad, but I'd generally prefer Scroll Rack's implementation allowing you to stack the top cards. The other aspect is that it draws the cards. Good for Psychosis Crawler, one of my favorite cards. Crawler CMC is pretty high for this deck, though. It's probably optimal not to run it, but I have a personal attachment.
I've also wondered about your usage of Portent of Betrayal. It seems a little costly for what, to me, seems to be a card that is just Scry 1 and haste. Without pumping toughness there aren't any other efficient scry effects, but is it worth the 4 mana investment? I feel like I'm missing something, or maybe I don't value Scry highly enough.
For finishers, I'm not a fan of Firestorm. I haven't tested it at all, but I feel like you're going to run out of targets before you get to lethal levels of damage. I'm running Conflagrate and it tends to get discarded and ignored. I think I just run enough alternate wins through Purphoros, God of the Forge and Psychosis Crawler.
With regard to Abbot of Keral Keep... I don't like it. The chance of a backfire seems too great. If you exile an arcane spell, then you can no longer splice it onto another Arcane spell. If we're going to be Twinflameing or Heat Shimmering, I don't know that we're going to need access to more cards. At this point, card draw should be covered by our cantrips. Before this point, we want more creatures. I also don't think Prowess is ever going to make that much of a difference. If my creatures are swinging, they tend to all have large power boosts. A few prowess triggers isn't that impactful.
Comparing Abbot to Thopter Engineer:
2 mana for a creature and maybe a useful card vs 3 mana for a creature and a flying token. Cantripping here gives us 2 cards from the abbot and 2 cards from the engineer.
One Twinflame later: An extra creature and maybe a useful card vs an extra engi and 2 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 4 cards from Abbot and 5 from Thopter.
Two Twinflames: Two extra creatures and two cards vs two extra engis and 5 extra flying tokens. If we cantrip here, we've gained 8 cards from Abbot and 12 from Thopter.
And finally, three Twinflames: 4 extra creatures and 4 more cards vs 4 more engis and 12 new flying tokens.
I can see how the Abbot can be beneficial because you don't need a cantrip for value, but the exponential power of the Engi seems too strong to me.
Yes, the only way it's going to be a huge advantage is if you can kill other players with it. Unless they're a pure lifegain deck and somehow doubled their life by turn 6/7, it's not that hard with Zada to draw 40 cards and have at least 37 of your own creatures to target. Just target everything but you. You're probably doing enough damage with Purphoros and Crawler that you don't have to worry about it, though.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I agree that Abbot of Keral Keep isn't as good as Thopter Engineer, as token producers are the most important cards in the deck, but they're not really competing for the same slot. It 'backfiring' isn't really that huge of a deal, because even if it exiles one of the cards we want and we can't use it, it's functionally the same thing as if we'd never drawn that card. It's sort of like how milling someone isn't actually a form of disruption. Abbot is more in contention with another value spell or a value creature.
The only arcane cards I would be unhappy to flip off of Abbot are Overblaze and Desperate Ritual, everything else is fine to hit in my opinion.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
Portent of Betrayal is probably one of my most flexible card slots. I play it for two reasons, and it has a reasonable backup plan as well. First, it is a scry effect that gives haste. While this is beneficial, it does not excuse the mana cost without some other impact or use, as I don't value scry 1 that much. Second is the use of untapping tapped creatures. The largest impact this provides currently is untapping Krenko, to double the goblins again. Other builds may allow this to work with goblin welder (reuse credit voucher) or elemental mastery (see krenko). If neither of these uses apply, it can still be used to borrow an opposing creature to increase the creature count. This slot could become traitorous blood to lower manacosts and provide trample. I've been playing the card for a while and still am not entirely sold on its inclusion.
Firestorm is the backup plan, and typically is my out to something not going quite as planned. When the cantrips start filling my hand, it is not difficult to play out creatures/tokens as they come and end up with 30 creatures. From here a single cantrip provides enough cards that the R for firestorm is the last component to winning. Firestorm won't do much of anything until we're going off already, which makes it win-more in a way. However, it is the most effective response to disruption once we're about to go for the kill. I mentioned this a page or so back, but an all-in Zada build can get blown out by anything from a fog to deflecting palm. In these situations, direct damage creatures (which would be my preferred response to disruption) may not be on the battlefield yet. Firestorm provides a way around these circumstances, while costing less mana than it's nearest competitor (IMHO through the breach to get those creature out and usable).
You and others have made a good point for thopter engineer vs. Abbot of Keral Keep, and the testing I have so far agrees. I wanted to keep approximate mana costs and slot categories about the same, and made an undesirable exchange. I still will be testing abbot, but I should reconsider slots.
I agree. There a a large number of excellent cards that work with this deck's gameplan; but Purphoros, Psychosis crawler, possibility storm and others cost too much mana. Impact tremors could slip in at its cost, but the impact is lower. In general, paying more than 3 mana for a card that needs to come down while we're preparing or as we go off is just not feasible for my gameplan. Trying to keep costs low and explosiveness high is what I believe is the most effective route for a storm zada build.
I'm glad to hear that zap works somewhere, but it's probably never going to make my list because of the required density of toughness-increasing cards. Am I correct in assuming you also play arcbond with that eldrazi monument? That's another card that I wanted to play initially.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
lyonheart thanks for the explanation. I remember reading the "Scry a bunch, cantrip while scrying" before, but I don't think it really clicked. I'm still not sure if it's worth 4 mana when it only combos with Krenko, but there aren't many other options here. I'm going to think about slotting this in.
I can't afford a Phyrexian Altar. I'm wondering if you think Thermopod is worth running if you can't budget for the Altar. Ashnod's Altar is the closest comparison I have, but colorless mana is almost useless. I don't have many other options, so I'm going to attempt Thermopod. I'm often finding myself short on rituals.
Abbot of Keral Keep in, Unearthly Blizzard is out.
Firestorm in, Conflagrate is out.
Priest of Urabrask in, Psychosis Crawler out.
Thermopod in, Purphoros, God of the Forge out.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I think I would only run Thermopod if I felt like I needed more creature-rituals after Skirk Prospector and Treasonous Ogre, but if you're running Desperate Ritual + arcane spells and Battle Hymn/Brightstone Ritual, it's probably unnecessary. I don't particularly like Priest of Urabrask either.
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I'd definitely look into treasonous ogre before thermopod or phyrexian altar. Sacrificing creatures isn't very desirable, and these cards are more of a bridge between the more effective ritual effects. If you already play treasonous ogre, then thermopod may be a reasonable consideration. It needs to be fairly consistently performing about as well as mana geyser at the same cost. I would not recommend ashnod's altar; you're correct that colorless mana just isn't very useful.
I'll be interested in knowing your results with thermopod.
I had never considered that playing arcbond might require a certain life total. I was rather certain than any single trigger of arcbond would be dealing triple digit damage in my build, and it would just be exploding the table. I suppose it depends on the quantity of the initial damage. If it were zap, it would need to hit a creature with 3 instances of overblaze (8) then the second trigger to resolve would be for 64. I thought that it would (likely) be redundant, or a different style of firestorm in response to disruption, and my direct damage would be spawning breath.
Priest of Urabrask is the only leftover from a time when I tried out free creatures (crookshank kobolds, crimson kobolds, kobolds of kher keep, phyrexian walker, memnite, and ornithopter) as a way to increase creature count with minimal (0) mana investment. Most of these did work, but were dead draws too often, and only providing a single creature wasn't as helpful as I'd initially thought. Priest, however, interacts well with cost reduction and very well with heat shimmer/twinflame to help those cards pay for themselves and keep the mana pool just full enough to keep going. This doesn't happen every game, but that synergy has kept me from running out of gas enough times to notice it.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
| Omnath | Zada | Alesha | Scion |
| Mazirek | Animar |
Modern
UR Storm RU
UBRG Dredge GRBU
Standard
UR Thermo-Thing RU
I guess as an outside looking in the whole Arcane package seems inconsistent and forced by being in mono red due to lack of tutoring and card card. How often does it actually "go off" ? Is just from the mass card draw of many copies of Crimson Wisps type cards?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord UB
R Godo, Bandit Warlord R