Dryad Arbor - Arbor fits into a number of EDH decks, but I don't think this is one of them. First off, it simply doesn't work with Karador. Since it's a land, you can't cast it, which means you can't cast it from the Grave. We do get value from sacrifices though, and that's typically where Arbor shines, but really, the strength of Arbor is being able to get it off of Green Sun's Zenith and fetch lands, but this deck doesn't really have enough ramp power to justify the land drop loss of using a land drop to get a creature. If we ran more ramp, maybe.
Where Arbor really shines are decks like Meren, of Clan Nel Toth, where Meren can return the arbor to play even on 0 counters. This lets the Meren player GSZ it turn 1, for a Sakura Tribe Elder t2, with a Crop Rotation on the Dryad arbor for a value land (Grim Backwoods?). This allows the Meren player to get a Meren out early, and then still use Meren's ability to return the Dryad Arbor on her first turn out.
I've considered Dryad Arbor as a GSZ target for my Trostani Deck, which can afford the land tempo loss, since there's so much acceleration, but even with negating the drawback, I don't think arbor provides enough value to that deck to make it in.
Yeah, the real crux of the issue is that I dont run enough green creatures for GSZ to truely be worth running, and unfortunately without it, I don't see room for dryad arbor. I will likely replace it with a multicolor or dual function land, such as Vesuva. The fact of the matter was, it was a worthless reanimation target because I didn't get to abuse its mana generation any more than I would a Llanowar Elf, it was no better a blocker - strictly worse than an ornithopter, and it used up a land drop per turn to play it from my graveyard. It's definitely getting cut.
Well, you also can't actually play it from your GY with Karador. He lets you 'cast' a creature, and dryad arbor can't be 'cast.' Only played as a land.
Well, you also can't actually play it from your GY with Karador. He lets you 'cast' a creature, and dryad arbor can't be 'cast.' Only played as a land.
touche, didnt even realize that about that. I owe my playgroup an apology hahaha - totally played arbor 2x during one of my testing games from the grave.
Vesuva seems strong, especially in my meta with some valuable lands running amok.
I really like the Clue interaction with Mazirek, and I love adding more card draw to this deck. On the other side, Karlov can be trickier to trigger, since we've cut a few of the soul sisters. That doesn't make him hard to trigger, we still have 2 essence wardens, a zulaport cutthroat, and ayli, but he does require extra cards. In that regard, I find that Ayli is the stronger of the two for this role, since she can work towards turning herself on alone, and she also hits a wider range of targets.
Really interested in hearing how Ayli has performed in your list. My own has always wanted a decent card to provide a life buffer, but that she has an exile effect makes her all the more appealing.
Edit:
Also saw you had trouble with an eldrazi titan. I think it's one of your usual circle of friends? Might I suggest Martyred Rusalk? Works wonderfully as a sort of fog, is a one drop, and provides a sac outlet that could in the right scenarios be more effective than a fog.
Really interested in hearing how Ayli has performed in your list. My own has always wanted a decent card to provide a life buffer, but that she has an exile effect makes her all the more appealing.
Edit:
Also saw you had trouble with an eldrazi titan. I think it's one of your usual circle of friends? Might I suggest Martyred Rusalk? Works wonderfully as a sort of fog, is a one drop, and provides a sac outlet that could in the right scenarios be more effective than a fog.
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim isn't the most synergistic piece of the deck, as we're not built around lifegain, but she initially interested me as a sort of all around utility. She's cheap to drop, can scare off attacks, acts as a sac outlet, and then later can be removal. Also, she becomes all the more terrifying once you factor in the ease at which this deck can reanimate her.
I haven't gotten her very often yet, but she looks to be very promising. Two situations come to mind. One game, I managed to drop here when I was at about 37-ish life after some losses and gains, and she was able to come online and exile a relevant threat in front of a wrath effect.
The other would have been when my friend piloted the deck against my Trostani. She managed to easily put the game in a soft stalemate, but I think if my friend had known a bit better how to pilot the deck, that she should have been able to shut down Trostani single handedly. Even then, he managed to use her to exile a couple of key threats, such as Doubling Season.
There are three big reasons she stayed over Karlov in the recent changes, despite it being easier to put counters on Karlov than it is to gain large packets of life. Especially since the deck often gains small amounts of life at a time. The first reason is that I can buffer my life first, then drop her and immediately activate. With Karlov, you need to drop him first, then spend time buffering, then he's online. The second is the flexibility of removal. Having more sources to hit artifacts and enchantments, that exiles, is fantastic. The third reason was simply that Karlov in a vacuum can't activate himself. Ayli can at least work towards bringing herself online.
===
Martyred Rusalka is a very interesting option that I'll need to keep in mind. Between it and Topplegeist I have some interesting options. I think there was a third option too, but I don't remember what it was, and topplegeist was more intriguing to me. I think the easiest play would be to see if I can find a cut for the Rusalka, and then simply track my Delerium activity during some games to see if topple would be better in that slot.
Hypothetically speaking, if a single card in this deck were to become a Protean Hulk for a day... what card should it be?
Firstly, shame on your friends for enabling such evil ideas.
Do you get a whole lot of mileage out of Imp's Mischief? It's fun tech, but I am not sure its necessary for the game plan; where as Protean Hulk...he basically is a 1 card combo.
Firstly, shame on your friends for enabling such evil ideas.
Do you get a whole lot of mileage out of Imp's Mischief? It's fun tech, but I am not sure its necessary for the game plan; where as Protean Hulk...he basically is a 1 card combo.
I haven't actually gotten them to agree to anything yet, but following the discussion in the PH thread, I'm interested to try and push for it. I don't think it'll go very far, but who knows?
On the other side though, I'm getting together with some other friends soon, and we might all play a "broken cards enabled" game, though we're likely to only get a game or two in. I should probably also find a slot for Recurring Nightmare in here as well, for that.
===
Imp's is a tech card that can be absolutely gamebreaking in some situations, yet also can be dead in hand for quite a while. The last game I used it, it sad in hand for several turns, but then stole a rancor which kept me off of being deaded by a tramply glissa of doom, while at 18 or some such Commander damage.
The only reason I hesitate here is that it's always easier to remove reactive cards, but those are the cards that can also swing the game the hardest. I'll definitely keep it in mind though.
The only reason I hesitate here is that it's always easier to remove reactive cards, but those are the cards that can also swing the game the hardest. I'll definitely keep it in mind though.
Thats a fair point, but I feel that using examples like the rancor one is kinda like looking at your top deck after deciding to mulligan - it gives you data that can lead to poor decisions in the future. For those several turns it sat dead in your hand, would a Protean Hulk have won the game before Mischief was ever useful? If so, I think it actually validates my point more than disproves it. Granted, if not, then I have no ground to stand on.
Imp's Mischief is conveniently costed for a reactionary card (its normally easy to critique 4+ mana cards like Draining Whelk as easy cards to drop), so I think its a great card. My thought process was Protean Hulk = more leaning towards combo. If I am running combo, i want to maximize my combo-ness, and execute on that better instead of worrying about slowing my opponents and while Imps can sort of protect against counter magic, that sort of strategy is not really something i would invest in with Junk colors. If i could run hulk, i would shift the whole deck into high combo gear, and up the tutor count
A valid point if you're building combo, but I don't think I want to skew the entire deck for what will ba maybe 2 nights worth of potential amusement. That said, Imp's fits the bill pretty well for this then, so I think that's what I'm going to go with.
My games took overlong, so I didn't manage to join in any PHulk games at the store, so I move to applebees after the store closed with two other players to try again. I ran my Karador deck, where it should (theoretically) be disgusting (though I think I removed any infinite that would work with him), though perhaps not much different from Ranger of Eos. The Palladia player joined us, and the third person borrowed my Roon deck (Where PHulk should be value, but not broken, although there is recursion, but no infinite). Sadly, PHulk still didn't show in this game. I only drew him the turn before I died, though part of that was due to my own Roon deck absolutely murdering me with a Reclamation Sage and a Scavenging Ooze. And then with a double tec-edge hit on my Grim Backwoods and vesuva'd copy. It was... not nice. Thankfully, Roon petered out without card draw, though unfortunately Palladia then took the win with a Tooth and Nail for Atarka and Xenagos, god man (though we messed up some rules, so technically not... As I had him on a Sporefrog lock, collaborating with Roon to not exile it to keep us alive). The takeaway here (minor) is that he could have T&N'd for PHulk and didn't, but seeing as PHulk is a set up card, and he was already set up, as well as the general low value of PHulk in his deck, I don't think it means much.
Part of it may have been just a really lucky opening, but WOW. My Roon deck straight up dismantled me with the twin hit combo of enchantment AND graveyard demolishment at the same time, with a final hit on the land engine that I was trying to get going. It was brutal!
Collective Effort - We tend to have extra creatures, so a 2 for 1 on removal, and incidental pump for low cost is not bad, though the sorcery speed hurts it quite a bit.
Selfless Spirit - another copy of that loxodon guy if you want some of this effect. Flying makes the body slightly more manageable.
Thraben Standard Bearer - is our new 1drop option for the line up, and while token production is cool, mana activation + tap + card is a stiff cost to pay.
Black
Cryptbreaker - Much like the standard bearer, is another 1 drop token producer with a stiff cost for tokens, however has 2 advantages: First, the tokens are better, and second, he has additional card draw potential. Shows promise.
Midnight Scavengers - It turns out we have a lot of < 3 drops in the deck. Does that make this guy any better than Karmic Guide or Phyrexian Delver though? Probably not. Melding him with the rats may take too many slots, but the team menace can be that final punch out you need, and it certainly has style points.
Gnarlwood Dryad - Deathtouch is a decent rattlesnake option, and the Delirium may push it over past options for it. Probably not though.
Kessig Prowler - Another combative 1 drop to the line up, but it won't beat out Serra Ascendant or Scute Mob. 5 mana is also a lot to pay into, especially when the deck is often mana-starved.
Eldritch Evolution - This deck isn't geared too perfectly for Birthing Pod or Natural Order, but both effects are incredibly strong, and the merger of the two (with a bit of added flexibility) is a solid creature tutor. Birthing Pod may actually warrant a lot in here as well.
Primal Druid joins the lineup as another land fetcher, but I much prefer the 2/1 stats of the Viridian Emissary as it can take an aggressive stance, trade out with other small utility creatures, and is much better on the clamp on demand. That said, as a secondary effect, this guy may make some decks.
Splendid Reclamation, another recovery for lands, this has high ceiling potential. We run a few fetches, but overall land ramp spells have not been a priority for this deck.
Lands
Geier Reach Sanitarium - Extra loot effects is an interesting utility piece to add to any deck. Could be an option since Karador naturally adds recursion, allowing this land to serve as pure draw and mitigate the downside. We aren't terribly hurting for card draw, but a recent(ish) game had me on severe lockdown as I tried to crawl back in with Grim Backwoods (and a vesuva copy), only to have them strip mined makes me wonder if more (and chearper) land options could be nice. I always worry about my color availability in this deck though.
Custodi Soulcaller - It's important to not get too carried away by this guy. Wait, no it's not. He's realistically only going to return things that cost 1, 2, and maybe 3, from the graveyard, but for this deck, that means only about a bajillion targets, being returned for free. Of course, we need to actually attack with him though, which is far more difficult.
Palace Jailer, Palace Sentinels, other monarch cards: The monarch benefits look to be quite nice, especially in this deck where we aim to make it difficult for our opponents to hit us. Of course, the benefits are tempered with a bit of risk - if someone else can get to be the monarch, it could be free benefit for them. Either way, finding out exactly which monarch cards can make the cut is certainly an interesting conundrum.
Recruiter of the Guard - An almost functional Imperial Recruiter!? Sign me up! We already have a bajillion targets for it. This is like half of a ranger of eos for this deck, with bonus upside!
Throne of the High City - A steep cost to become the monarch, but since you can activate it EOT of an opponent, you know that you're guaranteed a card back, at least. This could be an interesting card draw option on a land.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Vesuva is good. I don't like having to pay 2 extra on Thespian's Stage for this deck, but ETB copy is nice. I often end up copying Emeria, the sky ruin, but sometimes copy Bojuka Bog, Cabal Coffers, various opposing utility lands, etc.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Vesuva seems strong, especially in my meta with some valuable lands running amok.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
-Karlov of the Ghost Council
+Tireless Tracker
I really like the Clue interaction with Mazirek, and I love adding more card draw to this deck. On the other side, Karlov can be trickier to trigger, since we've cut a few of the soul sisters. That doesn't make him hard to trigger, we still have 2 essence wardens, a zulaport cutthroat, and ayli, but he does require extra cards. In that regard, I find that Ayli is the stronger of the two for this role, since she can work towards turning herself on alone, and she also hits a wider range of targets.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Edit:
Also saw you had trouble with an eldrazi titan. I think it's one of your usual circle of friends? Might I suggest Martyred Rusalk? Works wonderfully as a sort of fog, is a one drop, and provides a sac outlet that could in the right scenarios be more effective than a fog.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim isn't the most synergistic piece of the deck, as we're not built around lifegain, but she initially interested me as a sort of all around utility. She's cheap to drop, can scare off attacks, acts as a sac outlet, and then later can be removal. Also, she becomes all the more terrifying once you factor in the ease at which this deck can reanimate her.
I haven't gotten her very often yet, but she looks to be very promising. Two situations come to mind. One game, I managed to drop here when I was at about 37-ish life after some losses and gains, and she was able to come online and exile a relevant threat in front of a wrath effect.
The other would have been when my friend piloted the deck against my Trostani. She managed to easily put the game in a soft stalemate, but I think if my friend had known a bit better how to pilot the deck, that she should have been able to shut down Trostani single handedly. Even then, he managed to use her to exile a couple of key threats, such as Doubling Season.
There are three big reasons she stayed over Karlov in the recent changes, despite it being easier to put counters on Karlov than it is to gain large packets of life. Especially since the deck often gains small amounts of life at a time. The first reason is that I can buffer my life first, then drop her and immediately activate. With Karlov, you need to drop him first, then spend time buffering, then he's online. The second is the flexibility of removal. Having more sources to hit artifacts and enchantments, that exiles, is fantastic. The third reason was simply that Karlov in a vacuum can't activate himself. Ayli can at least work towards bringing herself online.
===
Martyred Rusalka is a very interesting option that I'll need to keep in mind. Between it and Topplegeist I have some interesting options. I think there was a third option too, but I don't remember what it was, and topplegeist was more intriguing to me. I think the easiest play would be to see if I can find a cut for the Rusalka, and then simply track my Delerium activity during some games to see if topple would be better in that slot.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Firstly, shame on your friends for enabling such evil ideas.
Do you get a whole lot of mileage out of Imp's Mischief? It's fun tech, but I am not sure its necessary for the game plan; where as Protean Hulk...he basically is a 1 card combo.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
I haven't actually gotten them to agree to anything yet, but following the discussion in the PH thread, I'm interested to try and push for it. I don't think it'll go very far, but who knows?
On the other side though, I'm getting together with some other friends soon, and we might all play a "broken cards enabled" game, though we're likely to only get a game or two in. I should probably also find a slot for Recurring Nightmare in here as well, for that.
===
Imp's is a tech card that can be absolutely gamebreaking in some situations, yet also can be dead in hand for quite a while. The last game I used it, it sad in hand for several turns, but then stole a rancor which kept me off of being deaded by a tramply glissa of doom, while at 18 or some such Commander damage.
The only reason I hesitate here is that it's always easier to remove reactive cards, but those are the cards that can also swing the game the hardest. I'll definitely keep it in mind though.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Thats a fair point, but I feel that using examples like the rancor one is kinda like looking at your top deck after deciding to mulligan - it gives you data that can lead to poor decisions in the future. For those several turns it sat dead in your hand, would a Protean Hulk have won the game before Mischief was ever useful? If so, I think it actually validates my point more than disproves it. Granted, if not, then I have no ground to stand on.
Imp's Mischief is conveniently costed for a reactionary card (its normally easy to critique 4+ mana cards like Draining Whelk as easy cards to drop), so I think its a great card. My thought process was Protean Hulk = more leaning towards combo. If I am running combo, i want to maximize my combo-ness, and execute on that better instead of worrying about slowing my opponents and while Imps can sort of protect against counter magic, that sort of strategy is not really something i would invest in with Junk colors. If i could run hulk, i would shift the whole deck into high combo gear, and up the tutor count
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Part of it may have been just a really lucky opening, but WOW. My Roon deck straight up dismantled me with the twin hit combo of enchantment AND graveyard demolishment at the same time, with a final hit on the land engine that I was trying to get going. It was brutal!
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Eldritch Moon!
White
Collective Effort - We tend to have extra creatures, so a 2 for 1 on removal, and incidental pump for low cost is not bad, though the sorcery speed hurts it quite a bit.
Selfless Spirit - another copy of that loxodon guy if you want some of this effect. Flying makes the body slightly more manageable.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - Thalia is an efficient hate bear.
Thraben Standard Bearer - is our new 1drop option for the line up, and while token production is cool, mana activation + tap + card is a stiff cost to pay.
Black
Cryptbreaker - Much like the standard bearer, is another 1 drop token producer with a stiff cost for tokens, however has 2 advantages: First, the tokens are better, and second, he has additional card draw potential. Shows promise.
Midnight Scavengers - It turns out we have a lot of < 3 drops in the deck. Does that make this guy any better than Karmic Guide or Phyrexian Delver though? Probably not. Melding him with the rats may take too many slots, but the team menace can be that final punch out you need, and it certainly has style points.
Vampire Cutthroat - not enough effect.
Green
Gnarlwood Dryad - Deathtouch is a decent rattlesnake option, and the Delirium may push it over past options for it. Probably not though.
Kessig Prowler - Another combative 1 drop to the line up, but it won't beat out Serra Ascendant or Scute Mob. 5 mana is also a lot to pay into, especially when the deck is often mana-starved.
Eldritch Evolution - This deck isn't geared too perfectly for Birthing Pod or Natural Order, but both effects are incredibly strong, and the merger of the two (with a bit of added flexibility) is a solid creature tutor. Birthing Pod may actually warrant a lot in here as well.
Primal Druid joins the lineup as another land fetcher, but I much prefer the 2/1 stats of the Viridian Emissary as it can take an aggressive stance, trade out with other small utility creatures, and is much better on the clamp on demand. That said, as a secondary effect, this guy may make some decks.
Splendid Reclamation, another recovery for lands, this has high ceiling potential. We run a few fetches, but overall land ramp spells have not been a priority for this deck.
Lands
Geier Reach Sanitarium - Extra loot effects is an interesting utility piece to add to any deck. Could be an option since Karador naturally adds recursion, allowing this land to serve as pure draw and mitigate the downside. We aren't terribly hurting for card draw, but a recent(ish) game had me on severe lockdown as I tried to crawl back in with Grim Backwoods (and a vesuva copy), only to have them strip mined makes me wonder if more (and chearper) land options could be nice. I always worry about my color availability in this deck though.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Conspiracy 2!
White
Custodi Soulcaller - It's important to not get too carried away by this guy. Wait, no it's not. He's realistically only going to return things that cost 1, 2, and maybe 3, from the graveyard, but for this deck, that means only about a bajillion targets, being returned for free. Of course, we need to actually attack with him though, which is far more difficult.
Palace Jailer, Palace Sentinels, other monarch cards: The monarch benefits look to be quite nice, especially in this deck where we aim to make it difficult for our opponents to hit us. Of course, the benefits are tempered with a bit of risk - if someone else can get to be the monarch, it could be free benefit for them. Either way, finding out exactly which monarch cards can make the cut is certainly an interesting conundrum.
Recruiter of the Guard - An almost functional Imperial Recruiter!? Sign me up! We already have a bajillion targets for it. This is like half of a ranger of eos for this deck, with bonus upside!
Notable reprints: Faith's Reward, Hallowed Burial
Green
Notable Reprints: Berserk, Beast Within, Burgeoning
Black
Deadly Designs - I'm going to be honest. I just want to run this to see if other people pay into it.
Notable Reprints: Diabolic Tutor, Fleshbag Marauder, Harvester of Souls, Murder, Phyrexian Arena
Lands
Throne of the High City - A steep cost to become the monarch, but since you can activate it EOT of an opponent, you know that you're guaranteed a card back, at least. This could be an interesting card draw option on a land.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek