Personally prefer Glissa Sunseeker over Kataki, War's Wage for artifact hate, especially since if you're already tutoring for an artifact answer with Sisay, you have the extra mana for Glissa. Her flaw of course is that she needs haste to have an immediate effect, so I can see the appeal with Kataki.
I use Primal Command as a toolbox graveyard hate / mill save / creature summon, as I couldn't find a reasonable tutorable answer to graveyard combos. Rest in Peace would be much more efficient, but shuts down any graveyard combos you might run, bit of a double-edged sword.
I think a larger problem with Glissa Sunseeker is that it's fairly slow and mana-intensive while Kataki is effectively "play it and forget it". My Sharuum opponent can easily have three mana rocks, 2 artifact lands, salvaging station and sculpting steel in play by turn 6 or 7 - Glissa just doesn't make a dent in that quickly enough, while Kataki is going to at the very least seriously tie up his mana.
I do somewhat like the idea of Primal Command as GY hate, so I'll likely test that out.
KotR is just pretty slow. I used to have a silly land toolbox with stuff like Sejiri Steppe but that's just not very good and Sisay can get important lands like Yavimaya Hollow and of course Gaea's Cradle when necessary. Meanwhile Primal Command is a useful graveyard hate card that also serves as a tutor or a slow removal spell.
Wow, that was a long break O.o I'm ridiculously busy with senior year of college, sorry about that. I'm gonna hopefully make some updates to the list and primer over Thanksgiving weekend.
What are your thoughts about The Tabarnacle at Pendrell Vale for this deck?
If you can afford a Tabernacle it is almost certainly correct to play it. I can't afford it and can't foresee being able to afford it in the near future, which is why I left it out. The same goes for Mana Crypt, though that's much more "in reach" to the average player.
GP Pittsburgh was a bunch of fun. Got to play a couple EDH pods and win some MM2015 packs (EV was ridiculously good, $5 to enter, each opponent you killed was 4 prize tickets which is 1 MM2015 pack). I didn't really play against any super high-powered decks, but did beat a decent Narset and Prossh.
Also, I finally got my Gaea's Cradle in paper! Been using it online for a long time, but I didn't have it in paper and that was a big hit to the deck. But I pulled an expedition earlier and was able to swap it in for a really nice NM Cradle which is a great feeling. I've been tutoring for it way too early the past few days just to have it on the table
Anyway, updates. The presence of Nahiri in my meta is making it a bit more creature-centric, so it's time for an old favorite to come back: Kor Haven! I cut it a while back just because there were never any individual big creatures getting tossed around in my meta, but once I took a couple hits from an Elesh Norn equipped with every damn sword and a Darksteel Plate it was pretty clearly time for this baby to make its way back into the deck. It's basically a tutorable Maze of Ith, which is worth the extra mana cost. Cutting Temple of Plenty just because it's slow and I'm fine on the colored mana after adding more fetches recently, I think.
2. I see that you are running less mana dorks and more mana rocks. How have this worked out for you? I can definitely see the upside of less vulnerability to wraths and removal, but one mana costed dorks like Birds of Paradise or Avacyn's pilgrim allow you to do turn three sisay while also developing a protective card. On a side note, one one costed "mana" card that have relay played well for me is Weathered Wayfarer. It constantly provided me with card advantage and additional utility in the form of the lands this deck plays, freeing Sisay to fetch more business.
3. I run considerably more protection to sisay than you do, in the form of Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper. Is this wrong? How does this fares with your choices? Also, other protection card that i do like in my list and mayhaps would consider to include over Archetype of Endurance is Privileged Position. It sure lack the 6/5 body and the Wild Pair shenanigans, though, but I unfortunately don't have access to the later.
4. On the removal matter, how many do you think is appropriate? And how many wraths? Also, i generally prefer catch all answers like oblivion ring, but the power level of my playgroup is rather small, so i do think instant speed is less relevant on my games than on the normal EDH game. Teh only Removal i pack that i didn't see discussed here is Dromoka's Command. I like it very much, but maybe that's a concession to one of the players of my playgroup that runs every Burning of Xinye effect possible. On the wraths choices, the only other than Austere Command that i would point out is Catastrophe, if you are willing to Armagedon every now and then. Unless you are constantly in need of wrathing earlier in the game or at instant speed, i would stay away from Wrath of God or Rout.
2. I see that you are running less mana dorks and more mana rocks. How have this worked out for you? I can definitely see the upside of less vulnerability to wraths and removal, but one mana costed dorks like Birds of Paradise or Avacyn's pilgrim allow you to do turn three sisay while also developing a protective card. On a side note, one one costed "mana" card that have relay played well for me is Weathered Wayfarer. It constantly provided me with card advantage and additional utility in the form of the lands this deck plays, freeing Sisay to fetch more business.
3. I run considerably more protection to sisay than you do, in the form of Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper. Is this wrong? How does this fares with your choices? Also, other protection card that i do like in my list and mayhaps would consider to include over Archetype of Endurance is Privileged Position. It sure lack the 6/5 body and the Wild Pair shenanigans, though, but I unfortunately don't have access to the later.
4. On the removal matter, how many do you think is appropriate? And how many wraths? Also, i generally prefer catch all answers like oblivion ring, but the power level of my playgroup is rather small, so i do think instant speed is less relevant on my games than on the normal EDH game. Teh only Removal i pack that i didn't see discussed here is Dromoka's Command. I like it very much, but maybe that's a concession to one of the players of my playgroup that runs every Burning of Xinye effect possible. On the wraths choices, the only other than Austere Command that i would point out is Catastrophe, if you are willing to Armagedon every now and then. Unless you are constantly in need of wrathing earlier in the game or at instant speed, i would stay away from Wrath of God or Rout.
Again, thank you for the awesome thread. It's great to have a place to discuss Sisay multiplayer deck.
Hey Nithkar, glad you like the thread! Also glad that you've posted so many questions! I'm always happy to discuss making Sisay better.
1. I played Hall of the Bandit Lord for a bit when I first made the deck, because it's kind of like a "poster child" type card for the deck. Cool effect + legendary = play in Sisay, right? I found that I didn't like it, here's why. The immediate thought with HotBL is that it lets you activate Sisay and your other interesting creatures right away, which is cool, and it's legendary so you can see it with consistency via the tutor. In practice this is not actually true. First of all, you can't tutor it with Sisay to use it with Sisay the first time, so it's only giving you the fast activation if it's in your opener. What's more, it's CIPT *and* produces only colorless mana. In my deck I have a bunch of ramp at 2 mana to get Sisay out on turn 3. But if you play HotBL on turn 2 you can't ramp, and if you play it on turn 3 even if you've ramped turn 2 you can't play Sisay. So you only get a huge speed increase (activating Sisay turn 3) with T1 HotBL, T2 green land + ramp (and take an unnecessary 3 damage), T3 white land -> Sisay. Anything else gives you a turn 4 Sisay activation at the cost of 3 life, but I'm typically doing that anyway - the only real plus from HotBL is that Sisay doesn't sit on the table for a turn cycle, which tbf is somewhat relevant. What's more, I don't have a bunch of other creatures with activated abilities that HotBL might help with. Pretty much the only one is Mangara of Corondor, and while activating him right away is certainly good, I don't think it's worth the land that otherwise slows us down and doesn't make our colors. Attacking early (i.e. actually using haste as intended) also isn't that relevant for me because I'm not super focused on combat damage - it only really helps Sun Titan and I suppose Newlamog.
Okina is useless in terms of activated ability - just a legendary green source. Flagstones vs. Eiganjo Castle is, to me, meta- and deck-dependent. If you're more combat-oriented or have more damage-based removal in your meta, absolutely Eiganjo is better. I'm not and I don't, so Flagstones is a legendary Plains that gives me slight resilience to land wipes.
2. 1-mana dorks vs. ramp spells/rocks is something that I haven't fully settled on. The major upside of dorks is, in my mind, boosting the power of Gaea's Cradle. The downside is making yourself very vulnerable to wraths, Elesh Norn, Massacre Wurm, etc. Spell-based ramp assists with flipping Nissa, Vastwood Seer, which is one of the best cards in the deck, and dodges creature removal, but can be vulnerable to artifact/enchantment/land wipes. What I really should do is test both packages, trying the one where I run all the mana elves and cut cards like Farseek and Selesnya Signet. That's a lot of sentences to basically say "I'm not sure what the right ramp package is". Weathered Wayfarer is an interesting one. I don't really think it's bad, but my intuition would be that this effect is better done by Knight of the Reliquary, a card I just cut for being a bit slow. The utility lands that I run are mostly legendary and are powerful enough that they're worth using a Sisay activation on when I need them. I do run and really enjoy Crop Rotation (highly recommend this card, as a Cradle tutor but also to surprise get stuff like Yavimaya Hollow or Kor Haven), but I think that's enough land tutoring for me at the moment.
3. Protective effects is an interesting question. First of all, I don't really feel the need to go all-out in protecting Sisay in particular. If she doesn't stuck because people are continuously removing her, that's usually fine - I can work around it and am okay with them using their resources on something other than a big threat. But having this type of protection effect to save Avacyn from a Swords to Plowshares, or save Linvala to establish the lock, is certainly useful. I cut Mother of Runes a while back just for being a bit too slow, but she's definitely alright. I think that I would prefer Sylvan Safekeeper over Mom if I wanted a protective effect, but I haven't run her before. Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is definitely a cool card, but seems likely to be win-more in many cases. Cards I already run like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Gaddock Teeg are of themselves protection effects since they stop wraths, big mana bounce/counters, etc. and are typically enough for me outside Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge, neither of which are stopped by the examples you gave anyway. Overall I'm happiest with Archetype of Endurance doing the heavy lifting on this effect and powering through the rest of the targeted removal. This analysis changes if your meta is more creature-heavy and the protective effect could thereby become more useful.
In short: Sylvan Safekeeper, intriguing and possibly worth running. The others, too slow for my tastes. Also, get a Wild Pair - you won't regret it.
4. This is highly meta-dependent. My meta is very creature-light with no swarmy tokens strategies. Typically I am the player committing most heavily to the board. This means I skimp on wrath effects. If I was in a creature heavy meta I would move toward adding more removal and cutting back on utility creatures so that I could clear the board with impunity. As such I try to stick to efficient single-target removal to break up the bigger threats I face which are win-quick creature combos with Deadeye, Kiki-Jiki and the like, as well as keeping down threatening commanders like Kaalia. I never considered Dromoka's Command because the only damage-based removal I see with any frequency is Blasphemous Act, but if you play against a bunch of those cards it seems like a card with a lot of potential utility and I can definitely imagine playing it. Catastrophe is a good suggestion that I should definitely test. I already go asymmetrical land-kill as my primary wincon, but given that I'm typically the player with the dominant boardstate in my meta (as I said earlier) in some cases stuff like T5 Armageddon would just lock things up for me, particularly when I have ways to make the effect asymmetrical e.g. by tutoring Cradle. This type of thought process led me to putting Hokori in the deck earlier (who I've very much enjoyed so far) so I will definitely test this card.
5. Yeah, it's tempting to run a lot of hatebears because they're situationally very good, but I think that for many of them that's a trap. Again, meta-dependent, though. Hushwing Gryff is one I haven't tested and still want to, just because Torpor Orb is such a great card and it doesn't really hit me that badly. The others are pretty underwhelming. Defense of the Heart is yeah, too slow for me and it's hard to justify when it puts a massive target on your head and I can't even insta-win if it pops. Seedborn Muse is another card I'd like to try out at some time. Yes of course it's ridiculous with Hokori. I'd want some kind of mana-sink to really take advantage of it though. Helix Pinnacle? Yeah something like Yisan, the Wanderer Bard is an interesting thought - he leads quite a powerful combo deck himself, although the deck's creature package might have to be significantly reworked if this happened.
If I missed anything let me know, if you have anything else on your mind let me know. Also, post your list! And maybe a bit about your meta? Always makes discussing individual card choices a bit easier when you have a bit more context.
1. That is an excellent point. Now that you mentioned, i guess i was able to pull that perfect scenario more than i should have. I'll definitely put Hall of the Bandit Lord on the radar. On Eiganjo Castle vs. Flagstones of Trokair, fair enough. But is Okina really necessary with Cradle?
2. Let us know if you reach a conclusion. The thing with wayfarer vs. knight of the reliquary is that although the later is a "less lackluster" card when drown late in the game, wayfarer really shines in the early. And although knight can ramp you for one (as long as you have plains or forests that come into play untapped), wayfarer gives you card advantage. But maybe Nissa and Reki can accomplish this better. I will try that out.
3. People on my playgroup run less wraths than they should, and more spot removal as a consequence. I can't see me cutting MoR or Safekeeper, but the fox have been lackluster. She is mostly my backup for Tegg if it gets exiled really fast. Privileged Position is a card that i like very much. Dropping it a turn after Sisey often let me get away with her for the whole game. Also, that synergy with Nykthos. Ill test archteype, though, and see how the difference in mana cost fares.
4. Fair enough.
5. I actually was talking about Yeva, Nature's Herald and not Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. You see, I have also always felt that not being able to use the extra Mana that Seedborn Muse provides would mean that the card was not worth to include. Yeva and Vedalken Orrery are cards that would allow us to take advantage of the extra mana on the turn of our opponents, by dumping the cards in our hand/fetched with sisay. But the more i think, the more i am convincing myself that, between extra sisay's activations and hokori lock, that is enough reason already to run the muse, even if we stare at all that untaping mana. Yisan, on the other hand, is a card that i think is super cool, but probably too slow. Assuming that he activates on turn four, it will be several turns until he bring something impactful to the table. Later in the game is even worse. And if he dies, it's back to ground zero. Probably not worth it without ways of controlling counters on him.
6. Thank you for the thought on the creatures i mentioned, that will save me a lot of testing! Very useful, indeed.
Thank you very much for the very detailed answer :D!
1. That is an excellent point. Now that you mentioned, i guess i was able to pull that perfect scenario more than i should have. I'll definitely put Hall of the Bandit Lord on the radar. On Eiganjo Castle vs. Flagstones of Trokair, fair enough. But is Okina really necessary with Cradle?
2. Let us know if you reach a conclusion. The thing with wayfarer vs. knight of the reliquary is that although the later is a "less lackluster" card when drown late in the game, wayfarer really shines in the early. And although knight can ramp you for one (as long as you have plains or forests that come into play untapped), wayfarer gives you card advantage. But maybe Nissa and Reki can accomplish this better. I will try that out.
3. People on my playgroup run less wraths than they should, and more spot removal as a consequence. I can't see me cutting MoR or Safekeeper, but the fox have been lackluster. She is mostly my backup for Tegg if it gets exiled really fast. Privileged Position is a card that i like very much. Dropping it a turn after Sisey often let me get away with her for the whole game. Also, that synergy with Nykthos. Ill test archteype, though, and see how the difference in mana cost fares.
4. Fair enough.
5. I actually was talking about Yeva, Nature's Herald and not Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. You see, I have also always felt that not being able to use the extra Mana that Seedborn Muse provides would mean that the card was not worth to include. Yeva and Vedalken Orrery are cards that would allow us to take advantage of the extra mana on the turn of our opponents, by dumping the cards in our hand/fetched with sisay. But the more i think, the more i am convincing myself that, between extra sisay's activations and hokori lock, that is enough reason already to run the muse, even if we stare at all that untaping mana. Yisan, on the other hand, is a card that i think is super cool, but probably too slow. Assuming that he activates on turn four, it will be several turns until he bring something impactful to the table. Later in the game is even worse. And if he dies, it's back to ground zero. Probably not worth it without ways of controlling counters on him.
6. Thank you for the thought on the creatures i mentioned, that will save me a lot of testing! Very useful, indeed.
Thank you very much for the very detailed answer :D!
1. Okina is not strictly necessary and I almost never fetch for it. However, Cradle sometimes doesn't tap for mana, and it's conceivable you'd just need a green source. There's not really any downside to running it.
2. Wayfarer may get better if I commit to the dork-heavy ramp package (since I'm less likely to be ahead on lands), so I'll let you know what I think after I finish testing that.
3. Privileged Position just felt kinda too slow for me. I used to run it and/or Asceticism but found I'd rather use my enchantment tutors on other things so I rely on Archetype of Endurance to do the job when necessary.
5. I had forgotten that Muse would untap Sisay which means you're tutoring for a new creature and flashing it in with Yeva on each end step. On one hand Yeva is green only and a large number of my important tutor targets are pure white; on the other hand that much value is gonna be powerful even if you can't flash in everything you might need. So it's an interesting idea that I definitely might try out.
Hey guys, I've updated the OP with a Strengths and Weaknesses section (discussing matchups) and an alternate commanders section. Also, I've got a TCGPlayer order with my mana dorks, Catastrophe, and other cards to test incoming. Finals week is coming for me so I'll be busy but after that's done with I'll be jamming a bunch of games so hopefully I can come to some conclusions about these cards around the middle of the month.
I had a Scroll Rack on hand and figured I should throw it in and it was bonkers good. Really not sure why I hadn't been playing this before. I tested Top previously but just found the effect somewhat underwhelming - but Rack's effect is significantly more powerful, and sometimes even activating it just once is like drawing 3 good cards. We are often shuffling more than once per turn, so we can make Rack really powerful by just shuffling away dead cards and drawing into more answers, and since we keep our hand full with card draw engines like Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Reki, the History of Kamigawa, Rack seems like it will stay useful deeper into games. Mirari's Wake is just too slow in my mind, now that I'm playing every game with access to Gaea's Cradle I have much fewer mana problems. Wake is nice with lock pieces like Hokori, Dust Drinker and such, but the card doesn't actually provide card advantage on its own, it just makes it easier to cast the stuff you have, and I haven't been running into too many problems with that recently. So out it goes.
As a side note, it's getting harder and harder to cut cards from this list. Which is a good thing! Because it means the list is getting tighter! Woohoo!
Soon, hopefully, I will update with the results of my testing of mana dorks, Catastrophe, and Sylvan Safekeeper.
Hopefully that means we get some more traffic in here and get some good discussion going. As always, if you have any suggestions, questions, or your own Sisay list, post away.
Also, interested in hearing people's thoughts about Riftsweeper. Sometimes important stuff gets exiled and you want it back - on the other hand, this list isn't particularly dependent on any particular combos, so it might not be outstanding. Does anybody have any experience with Riftsweeper or thoughts on if I should test it?
Also, interested in hearing people's thoughts about Riftsweeper. Sometimes important stuff gets exiled and you want it back - on the other hand, this list isn't particularly dependent on any particular combos, so it might not be outstanding. Does anybody have any experience with Riftsweeper or thoughts on if I should test it?
I will run her in my glissa deck, but my strategy there is far more graveyard based. Otherwise, I guess it depends on your meta, on how often this effect would matter. I thought of tuning her in sisay's, but never felt the need in the usual games I play. But I have lots of redundancy and run recursion only as a value generator, not as a enabler. I guess the only things in my list that ever mattered were eleah norn and living plane.
Yeah, Living Plane doesn't ever really sit on the table long enough for it to get exiled, but having Elesh Norn swords'd can be kind of a pain. On the other hand I have a decent amount of other ways to win so it might be too cute. I'll probably try it out at some point.
On another note, I have been testing some updates which I will post here soon - notably, about 5-6 mana dorks to replace some of my other ramp, and Catastrophe is definitely going in. Still unsure on Austere Command and Sylvan Safekeeper, and there are some other things I haven't quite gotten around to testing yet.
@Jarkeld: I use and like Karametra aswell, but since i added Reki I've found myself tutoring for her less and less. The thing with Karametra is that the only times I tutored for her was on games that i thought it would go long and my board would be constantly wiped. But I only do that because I don't own a Gaea's Cradle. With this land, I imagine that Karametra becomes kind of slow in comparison. Also, Cradle enables far quicker wins, turning karametra somewhat obsolete.
On other notes, of all Oath i think the only card that might be useful to us is Linvala, the Preserver. I often find myself in need of heal (i'm generally focused on my commander table), and I've always wanted some mean to gain life. I have been tutoring Dromoka quite often with this purpose, but i wouldn't mind a legendary Thragtusk, as she might enable some pretty good Reveillark/Karmic Guide shenanigans (It's worth to notice that there are two elfballs and one Oloro in my playgroup).
Edit: you also need Saffi Eriksdotter and a sac outlet in addition to Reveillark and Guide, derp :p.
That's the idea, if game going to go long I get Karametra and the first land I get is Mistveil Plains so that if my silver bullets die I can shuffle them back in.
That's the idea, if game going to go long I get Karametra and the first land I get is Mistveil Plains so that if my silver bullets die I can shuffle them back in.
Yeah, but i am finding that drawing cards and securing land drops through Reki, history of Kamigawa ability have been accomplishing the same thing, but a little better. I still keep both on my deck, but Karametra is under evaluation right now.
I also support Karametra. If it ever hits board early, the table is in trouble. Lately, if I already have some creatures in hand, I'm using Sisay for land drops (Cradle) and then getting extra lands from Karametra when I play the in hand creature.
Okay guys, big update here. Let me go through what I'm changing and then I'll respond to the convo that's going on right now.
First off, sorry for how long this took. I'm back home for winter break and recently found a couple good groups to play with so I've gotten some good testing in, and here's where I'm at right now:
Let me go over these changes in detail.
Ramp shift (the first four adds/drops): Turns out I like the mana dork plan way better. Downsides of going this route: additionally vulnerable to creature-based wraths and stuff like opposing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and makes Nissa, Vastwood Seer worse. Upsides: lots. Makes Gaea's Cradle way better. Makes Hokori, Dust Drinker way better. Makes Catastrophe way better. Makes triggering Windbrisk Heights significantly easier (a card I was previously about to cut but am now reconsidering). More on this when I talk about Catastrophe.
The other cuts: Darksteel Mutation - not a bad card, but Maelstrom Wanderer isn't in my meta right now so its main draw is gone. Probably meta-dependent on whether this should go in over some other piece of removal. Green Sun's Zenith - what? Yeah. I realized that every time I look at this card in my hand I think, "man, none of my good creatures are green!" Avacyn, Elesh Norn, Hokori, Linvala, Ulamog...it grabs some good stuff, of course. Nissa, Teeg, Saffi, Reki, Dromoka, and utility pieces like Ooze and EWit. But it misses so many of my higher impact cards, even non-legends...Reveillark/Karmic Guide, Rector, Loyal Retainerss, Mirror Entity...just too much stuff that it can't get. Mangara of Corondor - just too slow, and I have plenty of ways to deal with troublesome non-creature permanents like Primal Commmand, Krosan Grip, Beast Within, more. Archetype of Endurance - it still sucks to get my important creatures hit by Swords to Plowshares, but as the deck is getting more streamlined it's less often that I have my big stuff sitting on the table vulnerable for many turns, and more often that I have a soft lock in place with Hokori or something before they come down.
Other adds: Sylvan Safekeeper - this is kinda my more efficient version of Archetype of Endurance, and it gets the nod over Mother of Runes because it can be activated more than once per turn cycle. Containment Priest - this is just a supremely useful hatebear that shuts down all kinds of combos and other cheaty stuff - it stops reanimation, Sneak Attack, Chord of Calling, Kaalia...all kinds of stuf. Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - sometimes I found myself really needing to refill my hand, even with fetching an extra card per turn from Sisay. Often occurred when I dumped my hand of dorks or lands with something like Exploration. Koz gives a quick shot in the arm and also carries that big threat of annihilator. It's situationally nice to be able to shuffle the graveyard in, too. Catastrophe - okay, let's talk about this, particularly in conjunction with the new ramp package. Turns out that every time I drew Catastrophe it was insane, and 80% of the time I was just casting it as Armageddon. Wiping everybody's lands with Sisay and Saffi out is totally worth it. Wiping everybody's lands with Elesh Norn out is basically game. With Nissa you're recovering faster, with Hokori they never play another card...with Sisay out you can wipe and tutor Gaea's Cradle and never look back, and if you have any dorks in play it's that much easier. This angle of attack has been so good in every game I've used it that I'm gonna be testing Armageddon, Ravages of War and Winter Orb as soon as I can. We're going down a dark path here, and I am seriously loving it.
Big thanks to @Nithkar for suggesting a bunch of these cards. I'm gonna update the OP with these changes in a bit.
I've found the incremental advantage from Karametra to be pretty solid. A lot of the time she's my first tutor target.
Unfortunately, Karametra doesn't work very well with my newfound love for destroying every land on the battlefield But even before these changes I wasn't a big Karametra fan just because she's quite slow. If you have Gaea's Cradle she's basically redundant since Cradle turns your creatures into mana anyway.
On other notes, of all Oath i think the only card that might be useful to us is Linvala, the Preserver. I often find myself in need of heal (i'm generally focused on my commander table), and I've always wanted some mean to gain life. I have been tutoring Dromoka quite often with this purpose, but i wouldn't mind a legendary Thragtusk, as she might enable some pretty good Reveillark/Karmic Guide shenanigans (It's worth to notice that there are two elfballs and one Oloro in my playgroup).
Edit: you also need Saffi Eriksdotter and a sac outlet in addition to Reveillark and Guide, derp :p.
Linvala, the Preserver doesn't seem bad, but I never really felt like I was in the market for Thragtusk. Also, I really wish they had printed her with another unique hate-beary effect like the OG Linvala, since OG Linvala is soooo good...
Like you, didn't see toooo much else from Oath. Although, some of the colorless stuff is pretty interesting - I'd have to test it to see how the mana base supports it. In particular Kozilek, the Great Distortion is probably better for refilling than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and I'm guessing that I'd rather have the ability to counter stuff than annihilator, but that's dependent on if I can reliably cast the new Koz. I'll test it when I get it. Vile Redeemer is mildly interesting, but this probably isn't the deck for it. Bonds of Mortality, maybe if your meta was just full of these effects it would be better than Arcane Lighthouse? Natural State is intriguing, the new Nissa sucks, Zendikar Resurgent is winmore, and that's about it that I saw looking through the spoiler.
Glad that some of my insights were useful :). That just reminds me that i have to get a cradle...*sigh*. But it completely slipped through me the interaction between mana dorks and hokori or catastrophe. I guess i'll be going full on them even without cradle.
Zenith, huh? Are you sure it was the next worst card in the list to be cut? I would surly cut something like exploration or primal command first. I mean, how often is exploration better then explore in your deck? And how often does the tuck planeswalker opportunity comes, because for anything else you can zenith for acidic slime for a more permanent solution. I never found the modes on primal command quite relevant, and zenith have so much more versatility(ramping for arbor or dorks early), and goes back to the library. There are a ton of cards i my list that would go before Zenith.
On the Armageddon plan, i can see the appeal. But i will refrain myself from going that way without a cradle and possibly even when i get one. My play group is not quite on the level of MLD as the go to strategy of a deck. The occasional catastrophe is sufficient, and Elesh Norn is just the win condition hahahaha.
Glad that some of my insights were useful :). That just reminds me that i have to get a cradle...*sigh*. But it completely slipped through me the interaction between mana dorks and hokori or catastrophe. I guess i'll be going full on them even without cradle.
Zenith, huh? Are you sure it was the next worst card in the list to be cut? I would surly cut something like exploration or primal command first. I mean, how often is exploration better then explore in your deck? And how often does the tuck planeswalker opportunity comes, because for anything else you can zenith for acidic slime for a more permanent solution. I never found the modes on primal command quite relevant, and zenith have so much more versatility(ramping for arbor or dorks early), and goes back to the library. There are a ton of cards i my list that would go before Zenith.
On the Armageddon plan, i can see the appeal. But i will refrain myself from going that way without a cradle and possibly even when i get one. My play group is not quite on the level of MLD as the go to strategy of a deck. The occasional catastrophe is sufficient, and Elesh Norn is just the win condition hahahaha.
I need Primal Command for the graveyard hate mode, since I play against engine Sharuum, Karador, and a Riku that relies on recursion fairly frequently. Zenith is a good card and I might be wrong to cut it (I tend to have 5-6 slots I'm playing around with at any given time), there are certainly other cards on the bubble with it. I must admit I forgot that it ramped on turns 1-2 which is a point in its favor, I might come back to it.
Wow, that's actually a lot more than I thought - 14, and several of them legendary. I could also squeeze in a few more without too much trouble - Ghost Quarter, Brushland, Boreal Druid? I'm not sure if it's worth it just for the new Koz, though...maybe there's some other new cards that justify it? Or maybe the current amount is enough?
I have never played with any eldrazi in Sisay because: A) I don't own them; and b) i think that by the time i can cast an Eldrazi i should have already won. But, i don't own a cradle and might be biased by that fact. And maybe i'm wrong even disregarding that, but i'll give my 2 cents.
What i think is that choosing between the two depends much on how your games play out. And as i can't test that (or rather, test at all, as i own neither XD), I'll try to break down the different aspects of both versions to try and help you make the call. But first, yeah, i do believe that the new one is perfectly castable, especially if you play all the colorless generating duals.
Card drawing: If we would draw into Kozileks, I think that the new one would draw an average of 5 cards, giving him a little edge over the old one. But since we would be tutoring him much more then drawing into him, the effectiveness depends on the situations that you usually find yourself tutoring for Kozilek. Are you tutoring him when closer to no cards in hand? Or have you been getting him as a way to simply dig into answers or specific cards, often past the hand limit of seven? You said that after cradle, you usually search for reki or nissa, to start a CA engine. Do you see this line of play often making the draw ability of the new one significantly worse? I think that edge on the draw factor depends on these questions.
Abusing the card: I think that we definitely aren't the deck to abuse the new Kozilek. I mean, we are no blue.dec that can go: "i have 30 cards in my hand, now no one resolve any spell for the rest of the game". And, if i'm not mistaken, you pack less graveyard shenanigans than you could. But then, the ability to counter a spell can be more consistent and valuable then I'm giving it credit for. Maybe it alone is still worth the card, even without optimal use. On the other hand, the old koz is a simple man (or thing): you cast, you draw, you beat, you win. He even has an little synergy with your new found love for land destruction: he can keep everyone from recovering from a MLD, although i don't know if it's necessary.
Resilience - Graveyard reshuffle vs. the possibility of countering spells: Again, this depends on your playgroup and how often can you pull the sac outlet/dies - re-tutor - recast line. How often do you need to reshuffle your library? Is there any mill combo on your meta? Does your table pack many spells that could answer a board with sisay and a kozilek, at least? If so, do you think you could constantly counter it with the curve of your deck? Does the scenario were you play koz on a open board comes up a lot? Again, which one will stick highly depends on your meta.
What i suggest you to do is, until you acquire the new Kozilek (or before you do so), every time you get the old one, think of what would be like id it were the new. This might give you the insight you need to make the decision. Nevertheless, the answer might lie elsewhere, actually. Maybe its correct to play both and cut something like Avacyn if, for example, your meta is packed with exile, tuck and loose ability effects.
But hey, this is all theory crafting on cards that i never tested, in a deck that you have more experience piloting than me. It might turn out that all my considerations are BS and not relevant in the real world, hahahahaha.
About yisan, i flirted with the idea but ended up giving up. And now i think it was the right decision, as you showed me how the deck that is built around him operates. Yes, it is amazing how that deck works, but that is thanks to the many pieces the support yisan. And although, sure, we could put a piece or two to support the guy, i'm skeptical about the results. Without the building around, the couple of pieces will be very sub par on their own, and we can't even run the big mana creatures they run (aka archdruid, priest of titania, etc) since we don't run that much elves and are mostly a white deck. We won't be able to pull that multiple activation thingy their deck does. And then we left with a guy that will require us to pay 6 mana to tutor a 1 drop, 9 mana for a 2 and so forth. We could tune our deck to go with him, but at that point i think we would be just shredding our deck so much that we might as well run him as the commander. But, if you still think its worth to test it, then definitely pack seedborn muse.
PS.: your later approach to the deck is making it resemble more and more the 1v1 primer. Have you looked at that? I understand that these are two different games, but maybe it can offer us some knowledge, since its a list that go balls deep on the mana dork plan. I never liked it (as it keeps me from playing cool cards), but i'll revisit it sometime soon.
EDIT: Just checked the 1v1 primer and he actually just recently made a change in his deck list to incorporate an elfball shell with Yisan, hahahaha. But i guess that makes the point: to run him you truly have to go with the dedicated plan.
That list has some cost upgrades (fetches, Mana Crypt) and some stuff I just want to try out (Yisan package, Sylvan Library). I'll update with results. This is probably gonna be a bit more competitive than my playgroup so I'm not expecting too much, but it's nice to take the deck for a runout and see how it performs.
That list has some cost upgrades (fetches, Mana Crypt) and some stuff I just want to try out (Yisan package, Sylvan Library). I'll update with results. This is probably gonna be a bit more competitive than my playgroup so I'm not expecting too much, but it's nice to take the deck for a runout and see how it performs.
Can´t wait to see how sisay fares in competitive meta. I wish you the best of luck. On other hand i did some play with seedborn muse, and the card have performed well. Maybe is something to add to the the test pool.
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I think a larger problem with Glissa Sunseeker is that it's fairly slow and mana-intensive while Kataki is effectively "play it and forget it". My Sharuum opponent can easily have three mana rocks, 2 artifact lands, salvaging station and sculpting steel in play by turn 6 or 7 - Glissa just doesn't make a dent in that quickly enough, while Kataki is going to at the very least seriously tie up his mana.
I do somewhat like the idea of Primal Command as GY hate, so I'll likely test that out.
+ Primal Command
- Knight of the Reliquary
KotR is just pretty slow. I used to have a silly land toolbox with stuff like Sejiri Steppe but that's just not very good and Sisay can get important lands like Yavimaya Hollow and of course Gaea's Cradle when necessary. Meanwhile Primal Command is a useful graveyard hate card that also serves as a tutor or a slow removal spell.
If you can afford a Tabernacle it is almost certainly correct to play it. I can't afford it and can't foresee being able to afford it in the near future, which is why I left it out. The same goes for Mana Crypt, though that's much more "in reach" to the average player.
Also, I finally got my Gaea's Cradle in paper! Been using it online for a long time, but I didn't have it in paper and that was a big hit to the deck. But I pulled an expedition earlier and was able to swap it in for a really nice NM Cradle which is a great feeling. I've been tutoring for it way too early the past few days just to have it on the table
Anyway, updates. The presence of Nahiri in my meta is making it a bit more creature-centric, so it's time for an old favorite to come back: Kor Haven! I cut it a while back just because there were never any individual big creatures getting tossed around in my meta, but once I took a couple hits from an Elesh Norn equipped with every damn sword and a Darksteel Plate it was pretty clearly time for this baby to make its way back into the deck. It's basically a tutorable Maze of Ith, which is worth the extra mana cost. Cutting Temple of Plenty just because it's slow and I'm fine on the colored mana after adding more fetches recently, I think.
- Temple of Plenty
+ Kor Haven
1. On the mana, one utility legendary land that have proven to be very useful to me is Hall of the Bandit Lord. Maybe it's worth to improve the haste enablers of the deck. Also, Eiganjo Castle's ability is more relevant than Flagstones of Trokair or Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, at least in my playgroup.
2. I see that you are running less mana dorks and more mana rocks. How have this worked out for you? I can definitely see the upside of less vulnerability to wraths and removal, but one mana costed dorks like Birds of Paradise or Avacyn's pilgrim allow you to do turn three sisay while also developing a protective card. On a side note, one one costed "mana" card that have relay played well for me is Weathered Wayfarer. It constantly provided me with card advantage and additional utility in the form of the lands this deck plays, freeing Sisay to fetch more business.
3. I run considerably more protection to sisay than you do, in the form of Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper. Is this wrong? How does this fares with your choices? Also, other protection card that i do like in my list and mayhaps would consider to include over Archetype of Endurance is Privileged Position. It sure lack the 6/5 body and the Wild Pair shenanigans, though, but I unfortunately don't have access to the later.
4. On the removal matter, how many do you think is appropriate? And how many wraths? Also, i generally prefer catch all answers like oblivion ring, but the power level of my playgroup is rather small, so i do think instant speed is less relevant on my games than on the normal EDH game. Teh only Removal i pack that i didn't see discussed here is Dromoka's Command. I like it very much, but maybe that's a concession to one of the players of my playgroup that runs every Burning of Xinye effect possible. On the wraths choices, the only other than Austere Command that i would point out is Catastrophe, if you are willing to Armagedon every now and then. Unless you are constantly in need of wrathing earlier in the game or at instant speed, i would stay away from Wrath of God or Rout.
5. I have been feeling the same way about Aven Mindcensor, Knight of the Reliquary, Dosan the Falling Leaf and Defense of the Heart. Other card that have been underwhelming is Hushwing Gryff. Sigarda, Host of Herons is so so, aswell As Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. The extra problem with the later is that without Defense of the Heart he is even less useful, as he is the main pair to Elesh Norn upon a triggered Defense of the Heart. But maybe you can see something i'm missing on this matter, or maybe some of these make good choices in your meta. With that said, I've also been looking to test Seedborn Muse. She is sure nasty with Hokori, Dust Drinker, and if i find one to go on the deck, some of the cards mentioned above will be cut to make place for a Seedborn Muse synergy pack, like Vedalken Orrery and maybe Yeva, Nature's Herald.
6. At last, what are your thoughts on Selvala, Explorer Returned and Hua Tuo, Honored Physician. Also, does Reki, the History of Kamigawa really pays off?
Again, thank you for the awesome thread. It's great to have a place to discuss Sisay multiplayer deck.
Hey Nithkar, glad you like the thread! Also glad that you've posted so many questions! I'm always happy to discuss making Sisay better.
1. I played Hall of the Bandit Lord for a bit when I first made the deck, because it's kind of like a "poster child" type card for the deck. Cool effect + legendary = play in Sisay, right? I found that I didn't like it, here's why. The immediate thought with HotBL is that it lets you activate Sisay and your other interesting creatures right away, which is cool, and it's legendary so you can see it with consistency via the tutor. In practice this is not actually true. First of all, you can't tutor it with Sisay to use it with Sisay the first time, so it's only giving you the fast activation if it's in your opener. What's more, it's CIPT *and* produces only colorless mana. In my deck I have a bunch of ramp at 2 mana to get Sisay out on turn 3. But if you play HotBL on turn 2 you can't ramp, and if you play it on turn 3 even if you've ramped turn 2 you can't play Sisay. So you only get a huge speed increase (activating Sisay turn 3) with T1 HotBL, T2 green land + ramp (and take an unnecessary 3 damage), T3 white land -> Sisay. Anything else gives you a turn 4 Sisay activation at the cost of 3 life, but I'm typically doing that anyway - the only real plus from HotBL is that Sisay doesn't sit on the table for a turn cycle, which tbf is somewhat relevant. What's more, I don't have a bunch of other creatures with activated abilities that HotBL might help with. Pretty much the only one is Mangara of Corondor, and while activating him right away is certainly good, I don't think it's worth the land that otherwise slows us down and doesn't make our colors. Attacking early (i.e. actually using haste as intended) also isn't that relevant for me because I'm not super focused on combat damage - it only really helps Sun Titan and I suppose Newlamog.
Okina is useless in terms of activated ability - just a legendary green source. Flagstones vs. Eiganjo Castle is, to me, meta- and deck-dependent. If you're more combat-oriented or have more damage-based removal in your meta, absolutely Eiganjo is better. I'm not and I don't, so Flagstones is a legendary Plains that gives me slight resilience to land wipes.
2. 1-mana dorks vs. ramp spells/rocks is something that I haven't fully settled on. The major upside of dorks is, in my mind, boosting the power of Gaea's Cradle. The downside is making yourself very vulnerable to wraths, Elesh Norn, Massacre Wurm, etc. Spell-based ramp assists with flipping Nissa, Vastwood Seer, which is one of the best cards in the deck, and dodges creature removal, but can be vulnerable to artifact/enchantment/land wipes. What I really should do is test both packages, trying the one where I run all the mana elves and cut cards like Farseek and Selesnya Signet. That's a lot of sentences to basically say "I'm not sure what the right ramp package is".
Weathered Wayfarer is an interesting one. I don't really think it's bad, but my intuition would be that this effect is better done by Knight of the Reliquary, a card I just cut for being a bit slow. The utility lands that I run are mostly legendary and are powerful enough that they're worth using a Sisay activation on when I need them. I do run and really enjoy Crop Rotation (highly recommend this card, as a Cradle tutor but also to surprise get stuff like Yavimaya Hollow or Kor Haven), but I think that's enough land tutoring for me at the moment.
3. Protective effects is an interesting question. First of all, I don't really feel the need to go all-out in protecting Sisay in particular. If she doesn't stuck because people are continuously removing her, that's usually fine - I can work around it and am okay with them using their resources on something other than a big threat. But having this type of protection effect to save Avacyn from a Swords to Plowshares, or save Linvala to establish the lock, is certainly useful. I cut Mother of Runes a while back just for being a bit too slow, but she's definitely alright. I think that I would prefer Sylvan Safekeeper over Mom if I wanted a protective effect, but I haven't run her before. Eight-and-a-Half-Tails is definitely a cool card, but seems likely to be win-more in many cases. Cards I already run like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Gaddock Teeg are of themselves protection effects since they stop wraths, big mana bounce/counters, etc. and are typically enough for me outside Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge, neither of which are stopped by the examples you gave anyway. Overall I'm happiest with Archetype of Endurance doing the heavy lifting on this effect and powering through the rest of the targeted removal. This analysis changes if your meta is more creature-heavy and the protective effect could thereby become more useful.
In short: Sylvan Safekeeper, intriguing and possibly worth running. The others, too slow for my tastes. Also, get a Wild Pair - you won't regret it.
4. This is highly meta-dependent. My meta is very creature-light with no swarmy tokens strategies. Typically I am the player committing most heavily to the board. This means I skimp on wrath effects. If I was in a creature heavy meta I would move toward adding more removal and cutting back on utility creatures so that I could clear the board with impunity. As such I try to stick to efficient single-target removal to break up the bigger threats I face which are win-quick creature combos with Deadeye, Kiki-Jiki and the like, as well as keeping down threatening commanders like Kaalia. I never considered Dromoka's Command because the only damage-based removal I see with any frequency is Blasphemous Act, but if you play against a bunch of those cards it seems like a card with a lot of potential utility and I can definitely imagine playing it. Catastrophe is a good suggestion that I should definitely test. I already go asymmetrical land-kill as my primary wincon, but given that I'm typically the player with the dominant boardstate in my meta (as I said earlier) in some cases stuff like T5 Armageddon would just lock things up for me, particularly when I have ways to make the effect asymmetrical e.g. by tutoring Cradle. This type of thought process led me to putting Hokori in the deck earlier (who I've very much enjoyed so far) so I will definitely test this card.
5. Yeah, it's tempting to run a lot of hatebears because they're situationally very good, but I think that for many of them that's a trap. Again, meta-dependent, though. Hushwing Gryff is one I haven't tested and still want to, just because Torpor Orb is such a great card and it doesn't really hit me that badly. The others are pretty underwhelming. Defense of the Heart is yeah, too slow for me and it's hard to justify when it puts a massive target on your head and I can't even insta-win if it pops.
Seedborn Muse is another card I'd like to try out at some time. Yes of course it's ridiculous with Hokori. I'd want some kind of mana-sink to really take advantage of it though. Helix Pinnacle? Yeah something like Yisan, the Wanderer Bard is an interesting thought - he leads quite a powerful combo deck himself, although the deck's creature package might have to be significantly reworked if this happened.
6. Selvala is not really card advantage since everybody draws, so the extra draw is just done much better by Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Reki, the History of Kamigawa. Hua Tuo is too slow - we can re-grab stuff from the graveyard much more efficiently with Mistveil Plains, Loyal Retainers, Reveillark, Karmic Guide and Sun Titan along with E-Wit. Reki, the History of Kamigawa is a good card, but not 100% necessary in the deck. Better than Nissa when you're land-screwed and won't be able to flip her but still need a draw engine, and typically a pretty good draw in the early and mid games.
If I missed anything let me know, if you have anything else on your mind let me know. Also, post your list! And maybe a bit about your meta? Always makes discussing individual card choices a bit easier when you have a bit more context.
I'm just gonna put a list of stuff you made me think of testing here at the bottom of this post so that I remember:
Catastrophe, Sylvan Safekeeper, Hushwing Gryff, Containment Priest, Seedborn Muse (Yisan, the Wanderer Bard?), a build with dorks > ramp spells for Gaea's Cradle
2. Let us know if you reach a conclusion. The thing with wayfarer vs. knight of the reliquary is that although the later is a "less lackluster" card when drown late in the game, wayfarer really shines in the early. And although knight can ramp you for one (as long as you have plains or forests that come into play untapped), wayfarer gives you card advantage. But maybe Nissa and Reki can accomplish this better. I will try that out.
3. People on my playgroup run less wraths than they should, and more spot removal as a consequence. I can't see me cutting MoR or Safekeeper, but the fox have been lackluster. She is mostly my backup for Tegg if it gets exiled really fast. Privileged Position is a card that i like very much. Dropping it a turn after Sisey often let me get away with her for the whole game. Also, that synergy with Nykthos. Ill test archteype, though, and see how the difference in mana cost fares.
4. Fair enough.
5. I actually was talking about Yeva, Nature's Herald and not Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. You see, I have also always felt that not being able to use the extra Mana that Seedborn Muse provides would mean that the card was not worth to include. Yeva and Vedalken Orrery are cards that would allow us to take advantage of the extra mana on the turn of our opponents, by dumping the cards in our hand/fetched with sisay. But the more i think, the more i am convincing myself that, between extra sisay's activations and hokori lock, that is enough reason already to run the muse, even if we stare at all that untaping mana. Yisan, on the other hand, is a card that i think is super cool, but probably too slow. Assuming that he activates on turn four, it will be several turns until he bring something impactful to the table. Later in the game is even worse. And if he dies, it's back to ground zero. Probably not worth it without ways of controlling counters on him.
6. Thank you for the thought on the creatures i mentioned, that will save me a lot of testing! Very useful, indeed.
Thank you very much for the very detailed answer :D!
1. Okina is not strictly necessary and I almost never fetch for it. However, Cradle sometimes doesn't tap for mana, and it's conceivable you'd just need a green source. There's not really any downside to running it.
2. Wayfarer may get better if I commit to the dork-heavy ramp package (since I'm less likely to be ahead on lands), so I'll let you know what I think after I finish testing that.
3. Privileged Position just felt kinda too slow for me. I used to run it and/or Asceticism but found I'd rather use my enchantment tutors on other things so I rely on Archetype of Endurance to do the job when necessary.
5. I had forgotten that Muse would untap Sisay which means you're tutoring for a new creature and flashing it in with Yeva on each end step. On one hand Yeva is green only and a large number of my important tutor targets are pure white; on the other hand that much value is gonna be powerful even if you can't flash in everything you might need. So it's an interesting idea that I definitely might try out.
- Mirari's Wake
+ Scroll Rack
I had a Scroll Rack on hand and figured I should throw it in and it was bonkers good. Really not sure why I hadn't been playing this before. I tested Top previously but just found the effect somewhat underwhelming - but Rack's effect is significantly more powerful, and sometimes even activating it just once is like drawing 3 good cards. We are often shuffling more than once per turn, so we can make Rack really powerful by just shuffling away dead cards and drawing into more answers, and since we keep our hand full with card draw engines like Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Reki, the History of Kamigawa, Rack seems like it will stay useful deeper into games.
Mirari's Wake is just too slow in my mind, now that I'm playing every game with access to Gaea's Cradle I have much fewer mana problems. Wake is nice with lock pieces like Hokori, Dust Drinker and such, but the card doesn't actually provide card advantage on its own, it just makes it easier to cast the stuff you have, and I haven't been running into too many problems with that recently. So out it goes.
As a side note, it's getting harder and harder to cut cards from this list. Which is a good thing! Because it means the list is getting tighter! Woohoo!
Soon, hopefully, I will update with the results of my testing of mana dorks, Catastrophe, and Sylvan Safekeeper.
Woohoo!
Hopefully that means we get some more traffic in here and get some good discussion going. As always, if you have any suggestions, questions, or your own Sisay list, post away.
Also, interested in hearing people's thoughts about Riftsweeper. Sometimes important stuff gets exiled and you want it back - on the other hand, this list isn't particularly dependent on any particular combos, so it might not be outstanding. Does anybody have any experience with Riftsweeper or thoughts on if I should test it?
I will run her in my glissa deck, but my strategy there is far more graveyard based. Otherwise, I guess it depends on your meta, on how often this effect would matter. I thought of tuning her in sisay's, but never felt the need in the usual games I play. But I have lots of redundancy and run recursion only as a value generator, not as a enabler. I guess the only things in my list that ever mattered were eleah norn and living plane.
On another note, I have been testing some updates which I will post here soon - notably, about 5-6 mana dorks to replace some of my other ramp, and Catastrophe is definitely going in. Still unsure on Austere Command and Sylvan Safekeeper, and there are some other things I haven't quite gotten around to testing yet.
On other notes, of all Oath i think the only card that might be useful to us is Linvala, the Preserver. I often find myself in need of heal (i'm generally focused on my commander table), and I've always wanted some mean to gain life. I have been tutoring Dromoka quite often with this purpose, but i wouldn't mind a legendary Thragtusk, as she might enable some pretty good Reveillark/Karmic Guide shenanigans (It's worth to notice that there are two elfballs and one Oloro in my playgroup).
Edit: you also need Saffi Eriksdotter and a sac outlet in addition to Reveillark and Guide, derp :p.
Yeah, but i am finding that drawing cards and securing land drops through Reki, history of Kamigawa ability have been accomplishing the same thing, but a little better. I still keep both on my deck, but Karametra is under evaluation right now.
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
First off, sorry for how long this took. I'm back home for winter break and recently found a couple good groups to play with so I've gotten some good testing in, and here's where I'm at right now:
- Search for Tomorrow
- Farseek
- Nature's Lore
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Mangara of Corondor
- Archetype of Endurance
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Darksteel Mutation
+ Birds of Paradise
+ Llanowar Elves
+ Fyndhorn Elves
+ Avacyn's Pilgrim
+ Sylvan Safekeeper
+ Containment Priest
+ Catastrophe
+ Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Let me go over these changes in detail.
Ramp shift (the first four adds/drops): Turns out I like the mana dork plan way better. Downsides of going this route: additionally vulnerable to creature-based wraths and stuff like opposing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and makes Nissa, Vastwood Seer worse. Upsides: lots. Makes Gaea's Cradle way better. Makes Hokori, Dust Drinker way better. Makes Catastrophe way better. Makes triggering Windbrisk Heights significantly easier (a card I was previously about to cut but am now reconsidering). More on this when I talk about Catastrophe.
The other cuts:
Darksteel Mutation - not a bad card, but Maelstrom Wanderer isn't in my meta right now so its main draw is gone. Probably meta-dependent on whether this should go in over some other piece of removal.
Green Sun's Zenith - what? Yeah. I realized that every time I look at this card in my hand I think, "man, none of my good creatures are green!" Avacyn, Elesh Norn, Hokori, Linvala, Ulamog...it grabs some good stuff, of course. Nissa, Teeg, Saffi, Reki, Dromoka, and utility pieces like Ooze and EWit. But it misses so many of my higher impact cards, even non-legends...Reveillark/Karmic Guide, Rector, Loyal Retainerss, Mirror Entity...just too much stuff that it can't get.
Mangara of Corondor - just too slow, and I have plenty of ways to deal with troublesome non-creature permanents like Primal Commmand, Krosan Grip, Beast Within, more.
Archetype of Endurance - it still sucks to get my important creatures hit by Swords to Plowshares, but as the deck is getting more streamlined it's less often that I have my big stuff sitting on the table vulnerable for many turns, and more often that I have a soft lock in place with Hokori or something before they come down.
Other adds:
Sylvan Safekeeper - this is kinda my more efficient version of Archetype of Endurance, and it gets the nod over Mother of Runes because it can be activated more than once per turn cycle.
Containment Priest - this is just a supremely useful hatebear that shuts down all kinds of combos and other cheaty stuff - it stops reanimation, Sneak Attack, Chord of Calling, Kaalia...all kinds of stuf.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - sometimes I found myself really needing to refill my hand, even with fetching an extra card per turn from Sisay. Often occurred when I dumped my hand of dorks or lands with something like Exploration. Koz gives a quick shot in the arm and also carries that big threat of annihilator. It's situationally nice to be able to shuffle the graveyard in, too.
Catastrophe - okay, let's talk about this, particularly in conjunction with the new ramp package. Turns out that every time I drew Catastrophe it was insane, and 80% of the time I was just casting it as Armageddon. Wiping everybody's lands with Sisay and Saffi out is totally worth it. Wiping everybody's lands with Elesh Norn out is basically game. With Nissa you're recovering faster, with Hokori they never play another card...with Sisay out you can wipe and tutor Gaea's Cradle and never look back, and if you have any dorks in play it's that much easier. This angle of attack has been so good in every game I've used it that I'm gonna be testing Armageddon, Ravages of War and Winter Orb as soon as I can. We're going down a dark path here, and I am seriously loving it.
Big thanks to @Nithkar for suggesting a bunch of these cards. I'm gonna update the OP with these changes in a bit.
Onto some of the recent posts:
Unfortunately, Karametra doesn't work very well with my newfound love for destroying every land on the battlefield But even before these changes I wasn't a big Karametra fan just because she's quite slow. If you have Gaea's Cradle she's basically redundant since Cradle turns your creatures into mana anyway.
Linvala, the Preserver doesn't seem bad, but I never really felt like I was in the market for Thragtusk. Also, I really wish they had printed her with another unique hate-beary effect like the OG Linvala, since OG Linvala is soooo good...
Like you, didn't see toooo much else from Oath. Although, some of the colorless stuff is pretty interesting - I'd have to test it to see how the mana base supports it. In particular Kozilek, the Great Distortion is probably better for refilling than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and I'm guessing that I'd rather have the ability to counter stuff than annihilator, but that's dependent on if I can reliably cast the new Koz. I'll test it when I get it. Vile Redeemer is mildly interesting, but this probably isn't the deck for it. Bonds of Mortality, maybe if your meta was just full of these effects it would be better than Arcane Lighthouse? Natural State is intriguing, the new Nissa sucks, Zendikar Resurgent is winmore, and that's about it that I saw looking through the spoiler.
Zenith, huh? Are you sure it was the next worst card in the list to be cut? I would surly cut something like exploration or primal command first. I mean, how often is exploration better then explore in your deck? And how often does the tuck planeswalker opportunity comes, because for anything else you can zenith for acidic slime for a more permanent solution. I never found the modes on primal command quite relevant, and zenith have so much more versatility(ramping for arbor or dorks early), and goes back to the library. There are a ton of cards i my list that would go before Zenith.
On the Armageddon plan, i can see the appeal. But i will refrain myself from going that way without a cradle and possibly even when i get one. My play group is not quite on the level of MLD as the go to strategy of a deck. The occasional catastrophe is sufficient, and Elesh Norn is just the win condition hahahaha.
I need Primal Command for the graveyard hate mode, since I play against engine Sharuum, Karador, and a Riku that relies on recursion fairly frequently. Zenith is a good card and I might be wrong to cut it (I tend to have 5-6 slots I'm playing around with at any given time), there are certainly other cards on the bubble with it. I must admit I forgot that it ramped on turns 1-2 which is a point in its favor, I might come back to it.
Also, I wanted to ask what you think about Kozilek, the Great Distortion. Do you think this can fit in? I have to imagine it's better than regular Koz (presuming that you think regular Koz should be in) if we can cast it. Looking at my current list my colorless sources are:
Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Talisman of Unity, Birds of Paradise, Ancient Tomb, High Market, Homeward Path, Kor Haven, Miren, the Moaning Well, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Strip Mine, Tectonic Edge, Wooded Bastion, Yavimaya Hollow
Wow, that's actually a lot more than I thought - 14, and several of them legendary. I could also squeeze in a few more without too much trouble - Ghost Quarter, Brushland, Boreal Druid? I'm not sure if it's worth it just for the new Koz, though...maybe there's some other new cards that justify it? Or maybe the current amount is enough?
Edit: I'm also interested in Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, especially now that it can grab Sylvan Safekeeper on 1, which is actually a really good card. Here's a classic Yisan deck: http://landdestruction.com/yisan-the-wanderer-bard-edh-deck/. Adding a 1-drop untapper like Quirion Ranger doesn't really seem bad on its own since it lets me double activate Sisay, and it could get Yisan quickly up to 2 where it starts to get really good cards at instant speed, like Containment Priest, Saffi Eriksdotter, etc. What do yall think about that?
What i think is that choosing between the two depends much on how your games play out. And as i can't test that (or rather, test at all, as i own neither XD), I'll try to break down the different aspects of both versions to try and help you make the call. But first, yeah, i do believe that the new one is perfectly castable, especially if you play all the colorless generating duals.
Card drawing: If we would draw into Kozileks, I think that the new one would draw an average of 5 cards, giving him a little edge over the old one. But since we would be tutoring him much more then drawing into him, the effectiveness depends on the situations that you usually find yourself tutoring for Kozilek. Are you tutoring him when closer to no cards in hand? Or have you been getting him as a way to simply dig into answers or specific cards, often past the hand limit of seven? You said that after cradle, you usually search for reki or nissa, to start a CA engine. Do you see this line of play often making the draw ability of the new one significantly worse? I think that edge on the draw factor depends on these questions.
Abusing the card: I think that we definitely aren't the deck to abuse the new Kozilek. I mean, we are no blue.dec that can go: "i have 30 cards in my hand, now no one resolve any spell for the rest of the game". And, if i'm not mistaken, you pack less graveyard shenanigans than you could. But then, the ability to counter a spell can be more consistent and valuable then I'm giving it credit for. Maybe it alone is still worth the card, even without optimal use. On the other hand, the old koz is a simple man (or thing): you cast, you draw, you beat, you win. He even has an little synergy with your new found love for land destruction: he can keep everyone from recovering from a MLD, although i don't know if it's necessary.
Resilience - Graveyard reshuffle vs. the possibility of countering spells: Again, this depends on your playgroup and how often can you pull the sac outlet/dies - re-tutor - recast line. How often do you need to reshuffle your library? Is there any mill combo on your meta? Does your table pack many spells that could answer a board with sisay and a kozilek, at least? If so, do you think you could constantly counter it with the curve of your deck? Does the scenario were you play koz on a open board comes up a lot? Again, which one will stick highly depends on your meta.
What i suggest you to do is, until you acquire the new Kozilek (or before you do so), every time you get the old one, think of what would be like id it were the new. This might give you the insight you need to make the decision. Nevertheless, the answer might lie elsewhere, actually. Maybe its correct to play both and cut something like Avacyn if, for example, your meta is packed with exile, tuck and loose ability effects.
But hey, this is all theory crafting on cards that i never tested, in a deck that you have more experience piloting than me. It might turn out that all my considerations are BS and not relevant in the real world, hahahahaha.
About yisan, i flirted with the idea but ended up giving up. And now i think it was the right decision, as you showed me how the deck that is built around him operates. Yes, it is amazing how that deck works, but that is thanks to the many pieces the support yisan. And although, sure, we could put a piece or two to support the guy, i'm skeptical about the results. Without the building around, the couple of pieces will be very sub par on their own, and we can't even run the big mana creatures they run (aka archdruid, priest of titania, etc) since we don't run that much elves and are mostly a white deck. We won't be able to pull that multiple activation thingy their deck does. And then we left with a guy that will require us to pay 6 mana to tutor a 1 drop, 9 mana for a 2 and so forth. We could tune our deck to go with him, but at that point i think we would be just shredding our deck so much that we might as well run him as the commander. But, if you still think its worth to test it, then definitely pack seedborn muse.
PS.: your later approach to the deck is making it resemble more and more the 1v1 primer. Have you looked at that? I understand that these are two different games, but maybe it can offer us some knowledge, since its a list that go balls deep on the mana dork plan. I never liked it (as it keeps me from playing cool cards), but i'll revisit it sometime soon.
EDIT: Just checked the 1v1 primer and he actually just recently made a change in his deck list to incorporate an elfball shell with Yisan, hahahaha. But i guess that makes the point: to run him you truly have to go with the dedicated plan.
That list has some cost upgrades (fetches, Mana Crypt) and some stuff I just want to try out (Yisan package, Sylvan Library). I'll update with results. This is probably gonna be a bit more competitive than my playgroup so I'm not expecting too much, but it's nice to take the deck for a runout and see how it performs.
Can´t wait to see how sisay fares in competitive meta. I wish you the best of luck. On other hand i did some play with seedborn muse, and the card have performed well. Maybe is something to add to the the test pool.