Please play both cards, and then tell me that I'm wrong. It could be bad in this deck, but almost every green player I've met and had played the card has agreed that any deck with dorks wants both GSZ and Arbor. If you test it, and I'm wrong, I'll eat my words
I don't see how you two can be so certain that t1 GSZ for Arbor is bad while also playing Fyndhorn Elves, Elvish Mystic, and Llanowar Elves, which also suffer from the various wraths and Linvala effects
I've tried the deck with and without Arbor. I've lost games to Dryad Arbor's summoning sickness, but I've also lost games to not having a t1 accelerant. Imagine your deck without any t1 mana dorks. Too slow to compete, right? Now imagine you have mana dorks again, but you draw your opening hand and the only t1 accelerant is GSZ. Are you going to sit there and wait until turn 3 to grab Teeg when your hand presumably already has a bunch of 2-3 mana action? What if you miss your third land drop? This is just one scenario which isn't particularly likely to happen. If, for example, the hand had a strong 2 mana play, I might not GSZ for Arbor, but several of the plays (e.g. Teeg) weaken GSZ anyway.
In short, I think whether or not to include Dryad Arbor is a VERY complex decision given how unique Arbor is. But I guess if you truly believe t1 GSZ for Arbor (probably the strongest upside) is garbage, none of the corner cases matter. In any case, I'm definitely going to continue playing with it just to gather more data.
I don't see how you two can be so certain that t1 GSZ for Arbor is bad while also playing Fyndhorn Elves, Elvish Mystic, and Llanowar Elves, which also suffer from the various wraths and Linvala effects
T1 GSV for Arbor isn't a bad play. It's just the only strong play arbor gives you in my opinion. Dorks are ramp. When you play a normal dork, you can also play a land for turn, thus netting capacity for one extra mana. With arbor, you effectively lose your land for turn to play a dork. Would you play a dork that said "The turn you play this creature, you may not play a land."? Normal dorks also only succumb to wrath effects and Linvala/Cursed Totem effects. Winter Orb and MLD don't harm them in any way. Arbor is screwed by wraths, Linvala/Totem, Winter Orb effects, and MLD.
I played a few games yesterday and delirium is out of our range, I'm afraid, making Traverse a subpar card.
I included Deathrite Shaman in my 99 and boy did he pull his weight! An awesome awesome addition. My meta is pretty cutthroat, so there's always someone burning a fetch T1, allowing DS to accelerate our game when it's needed and then control.
I also started playing Winter Orb and it's been great. It's a great trap card which buys time. I'm eyeing Cryptolith Rite because it would be awesome to pay for stuff with Linvala or Hokori in taxed out tables, but I'm having a hard time removing stuff. I noticed Cobb removed Saffi, but I can't bring myself to getting rid of her as she's protection (too many times she allowed me to keep Iona and Elesh on the BF much longer than they were meant to be), combo enabler and a backup Fiend Hunter.
OK, so what do you think about removing Skullclamp? This card seems great at first, but I really don't want to get rid of my mana dorks and attaching it to something with 2 toughness for card draw is slow as hell. I got a lot more value from Grim Haruspex than from Skullclamp and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the card.
One more thing: this deck folds pretty badly to MLD. There's no coming back after, say, a cycled Decree of Annihilation or - worse - Ruination. Is there a plan for this scenario or do we just, you know, wing it? Mana dorks are most definitely not enough. Hmmm... Cryptolith Rite could actually help, but I'm kinda entering the Magical Christmas Land here.
You've got some similar results to what I've experienced. Traverse the Ulvenwald hasn't been great (or at least not as great as it is in Angry Frog or Sidisi). Deathrite Shaman, Winter Orb, and Cryptolith Rite are all in my current iteration of the list. I really like Rite, not just because of the MLD resilience, but also because most of the hatebears don't really have much else to do, so turning them into Hate Dorks is great. The fact that it works when you have no land is gravy. I had looked into Earthcraft long ago, but the number of nonbasics in the list really hurts its viability.
I like running both Haruspex and Skullclamp. If you know that an opponent has a game winning line of play incoming, sacking a couple dorks preemptively to dig for an answer is absolutely worth it.
I cant take this thread seriously if you guys are saying GSZ + Dryad is a bad choice. You can count dryad arbor as a one drop criature instead of a land for mana purposes, you can also count it in land count for Mox Diamond. Also GSZ gives you more outs to get hermit druid, which is insanely strong, gaddock teeg, etc... Its a tutor for christ sake!
Dryad can also be fetched with a Green fetchland and block, he is a 0 CMC creature which can start a new Pod chain and grab carrion feeder or caustic caterpillar. With an elesh norn its a 3/3 in late game for free. You can atach it with pattern of rebirth, which could be easily resting in your hand after a wrath effect. Also, in my personal list, im using victimize assuring me always a creature thanks dryad Arbor.All of this just for one slot of my deck, sign me in.
I would never say i lost because i had a dryad arbor instead of a mana source since i did never count it as a mana produce land. Im playing 34 mana producing lands out 37 lands for Mox diamond land count purposes. The other three lands are bazaar of baghdad, dryad arbor and diamond valley.
To be honest I kind of agree. GSZ finds Scavenging Ooze, Teeg, etc. Dryad Arbor is pretty good just in that you can fetch for a creature when you need one for pattern or Skullclamp or whatever. Count it as a creature if you think it's that bad. *And* now there's one more manadork in your deck - GSZ.
I also started playing Winter Orb and it's been great. It's a great trap card which buys time. I'm eyeing Cryptolith Rite because it would be awesome to pay for stuff with Linvala or Hokori in taxed out tables, but I'm having a hard time removing stuff. I noticed Cobb removed Saffi, but I can't bring myself to getting rid of her as she's protection (too many times she allowed me to keep Iona and Elesh on the BF much longer than they were meant to be), combo enabler and a backup Fiend Hunter.
I also added Winter Orb recently and it rocks! I'll have to try Cryptolith Rite. If I like it, I might also sub out Qasali Pridemage for Caustic Caterpillar, since my deck is getting a little too 2-drop heavy. Though the 2-mana activation is much harder to keep up than the 1-mana activation, so I haven't 100% made up my mind. Also, I actually removed Fiend Hunter recently, since Saffi works just as fine in the combo and I rarely feel good when casting Fiend Hunter.
OK, so what do you think about removing Skullclamp? This card seems great at first, but I really don't want to get rid of my mana dorks and attaching it to something with 2 toughness for card draw is slow as hell. I got a lot more value from Grim Haruspex than from Skullclamp and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the card.
I would never say i lost because i had a dryad arbor instead of a mana source since i did never count it as a mana produce land. Im playing 34 mana producing lands out 37 lands for Mox diamond land count purposes. The other three lands are bazaar of baghdad, dryad arbor and diamond valley.
To be honest I kind of agree. GSZ finds Scavenging Ooze, Teeg, etc. Dryad Arbor is pretty good just in that you can fetch for a creature when you need one for pattern or Skullclamp or whatever. Count it as a creature if you think it's that bad. *And* now there's one more manadork in your deck - GSZ.
I like to break problems like this down into smaller easier to solve problems that I can combine into one big solution. So, assuming we all agree that GSZ belongs in the deck, but we don't necessarily agree that Dryad Arbor belongs, we need to take each situation where Dryad Arbor affects the game in a positive/negative manner (relative to a basic Forest), multiply each of these by how likely they are to occur, and sum all these terms up to determine if Dryad Arbor's total impact is positive or negative. Here is a list of all the situations I can think of, ordered by how often they occur, also noting how good/bad I think the situation is on average. Note that if I say "GSZ in hand", I assume Dryad Arbor isn't in hand, because you obviously can't GSZ for it if it's in your hand.
Active Survival/Fauna Shaman, Dryad Arbor in hand as well as other creatures | close to no effect
Dryad Arbor drawn mid-late game | slightly bad but rarely affects things
Dryad Arbor is one of 2-3 lands in opener | bad
Dryad Arbor gets wrathed/Linvala'd/MLD away | bad? (depends on how important that 1 mana was and how much use you got out of the acceleration in prior turns)
Fetchland drawn mid-late game, and you have a Skullclamp/Pod/etc | good (not to say you will fetch it, but options are good)
GSZ in opener but you have a better t1 play | no effect
Dryad Arbor is the only land in opener | VERY BAD!
Dryad Arbor drawn mid-late game, and you have a Skullclamp/Pod/etc | good
GSZ in opener, no other t1 plays | pretty good
Active Survival/Fauna Shaman but no other creatures in hand | very good
Dryad Arbor is one of 4+ lands in opener | no effect
Need any creature for Pattern of Rebirth, chump block, etc | good? (highly variable)
Each of you probably disagree with the specifics of this chart, but to illustrate my point I'll be going with this. You'll notice that the top half is mostly bad, while the bottom half is entirely good/neutral. (You might already see where I'm going with this.) What this means is, if the situations are near in probability, what matters is quantity of good/bad. If the situations are distant in probability, what matters is positions on the list. For example, if the order is meaningless and each situation is equally likely, good easily wins. But, as another example, if each subsequent situation is 10% as likely to occur as the previous, bad easily wins. So now the question is: how close are the probabilities?
Unfortunately, we don't have a huge database of games we can codify and analyze, so the math stops here. Does this means nothing has been accomplished? No, my actual point is that we can better inform our deckbuilding decisions by breaking down problems and answering the subproblems. At the very least, you will probably recognize a few uses for a card that you hadn't thought of, and maybe that's enough to change your opinion.
Personally, I think the probabilities are far enough on the "close" side that I think Dryad Arbor is worth running, but I certainly respect the argument against it. If I was guaranteed to play against Wraths, MLD, Linvala, etc, I'd definitely think twice. But I don't think GSZ+Arbor's "staple" status or the fact that it's banned in Modern is enough proof that it's an auto-include. cEDH is a weird format, and Boonweaver Karador doesn't really have any analogs in the professional Magic scene. There are bound to be a few surprising inclusions and exclusions.
Note: a case I didn't include on this list is when you (or someone else) plays a Winter Orb effect. Other than essentially being a tapped land (which is accounted for above), Dryad Arbor is not worse than a basic Forest. It is MUCH worse than a Llanowar Elves, but that's not a matter of deckbuilding; that's a matter of saving your GSZ if you're about to drop an Orb. Yes, not firing the GSZ off t1 does make it more likely that you draw it naturally, which does happen and is bad, but you shouldn't double-count this negative.
Tireless Tracker... what do you guys think? It depends on making land drops, but flies under our taxes, isn't bothered by Spirit of the Labirynth (we can just sac clues EOT) and is at least OK mid and late game.
Has any of these cards been an all star for either of you or is this differences in meta? I was particularly interested in the effectiveness of Living Plane as a win-con as opposed to Stony Silence's ability to shut down artifact based decks even as just a mana inhibitor.
Cobbelpott, did you enter the Reddit tournament? I know you made the final four last time around and another Karador Boonweaver deck made the final four this time.
Gma, thanks for the feedback. I checked out your list on deckstats. It did not appear to be current (no Living Plane for example). Do you have an updated list?
Necromancer - Karador cares about creatures. Most of our relevant tutor support is creature oriented and creatures are much easier to recur. Fiend Hunter - The only reason I choose this over Saffi is the fact that it acts as removal which is very relevant depending on the matchup. Living Plane - This is really useful as a surprise alternate line of play. Most people will be holding their removal and interaction for the usual suspects like Rector, Reanimate, etc. Living Plane looks really innocuous until you immediately grab Elesh Norn or Linvala as a follow up. Mentor of the Meek - I love this card. It's a creature that allows draw every time you play dorks/hatebears, which is all the time.
Has any of these cards been an all star for either of you or is this differences in meta? I was particularly interested in the effectiveness of Living Plane as a win-con as opposed to Stony Silence's ability to shut down artifact based decks even as just a mana inhibitor.
I'm sure meta likely plays into our varied choices for these slots. Living Plane is definitely tremendous though since it gives an easily assembled line of play that, in my opinion, is superior to Stony Silence.
Cobbelpott, did you enter the Reddit tournament? I know you made the final four last time around and another Karador Boonweaver deck made the final four this time.
I didn't enter this one. Though I participated in the previous three, winning one and making final table in another.
In case Boonweaver is exiled, is Riftsweeper viable? It might be too much of a dead slot, but it could surprise an opponent who thinks they have killed your combo. By the way I love the deck and enjoyed reading your in-depth primer.
Thanks for the quick response Cobbelpott. The Karador list that made the finals varies much more with yours than Keattz. I count 15 differences excluding the mana base where he is playing one less land. Several of the creatures and artifacts he is playing you cut.
He did have Saffi Eriksdotter, Stony Silence, and Vryn Wingmare in common with Keattz (also Strip Mine). I know what you would cut for Saffi. My question for you is if someone put a loaded gun to your balls and told you to play Stony Silence and Vryn Wingmare what gets taken out of your deck?
How firm are you on Dryad Arbor? I read the whole debate and I understand both sides. I was wondering if another mana dork could be run in its place-possibly Bloom Tender (previous cut).
Cobblepott usually plays online and I usually play paper, so it shouldn't be that surprising that our decks differ.
For me, Stony Silence is a fairly new addition, inspired by ifarmpanda's list in the /r/cEDH tourney. I've been super impressed by it.
I'm not sure on Saffi vs. Fiend Hunter. You only need one for the Boonweaver combo. Saffi and Loyal Retainers is technically an infinite pair, but I don't think this comes up TOO often. Mostly a decision of protecting your board vs. disrupting someone else's board.
EDIT: Didn't see the last three posts when I wrote this. I'm def gonna try out Living Plane soon. Also, my opinion on Dryad Arbor has only gotten more positive over the past few weeks. The more I play with it, the more lines of play I find.
Keattz, your list is almost identical to Cobbelpott's. What line of play are you finding with Dryad Arbor?
I should have the rest of Cobbelpott's list arrive in the mail today. Stony Silence may be too good not to go into the deck. I know Brago and Sharuum are at the shop where I play.
Cobbelpott, what decks do you regularly face online? Are your games primarily 1v1? Which decks have the most success against you? If the games are 1v1, what decks have you encountered in a multiplayer setting that have had success? These questions are very relevant to me as I came to your list because of asking these same questions of other high level players.
Keattz, your list is almost identical to Cobbelpott's. What line of play are you finding with Dryad Arbor?
Glad to have another Boonweaver player around to spur discussion. Most of my thoughts on Dryad Arbor can be found here.
Additionally, I've had 3 games recently where GSZ for Dryad Arbor put in work. Against other GWx decks, a lot of games are just races to get Elesh Norn on board. In two particularly mana-tight games, GSZ for Dryad Arbor got to the amount of mana to Survival/Fauna Shaman into Norn, then Retainers, and cast Retainers. In another game, an opponent cast MLD and I had no lands in hand, but I could float mana and cast Eladamri's Call to grab a Dryad Arbor. I was first to topdeck some ramp and rebuild my mana.
Obviously neither of these cases are GAME BREAKERS, but I just love the additional lines of play opened up by Dryad Arbor being in the deck.
I had a question concerning this deck's out to Humility? I reread the primer and saw this issue was covered. Your response included this:
"Now there will be people who criticize running a list without any noncreature removal, but Karador really needs to be as creature-oriented as possible."
My amended question is if the above statement is true why are you playing Swords to Plowshares? You have means to tutor a response to creatures Fiend Hunter and Shriekmaw, but a resolved Humility is game over. It would seem that in an unknown meta (online tournament) Nature's Claim would be an auto include. I am not advocating the removal of Swords to Plowshares. The final four Karador deck played both and is the imputus for this question.
Keattz, based on you playing paper I assume you encounter a lot of the same individuals. Gma, I would also like your input on this question. Has none of your.competitors incorporated Humility into their decks? Is Grand Arbiter Augustin IV the only competetive deck that can effectively play this card?
Hi, I recently joined the Karador crew haha. I was wondering why you guys don't include Bitter Ordeal in here. It seems to combo off pretty well with Sun Titan + Saffi Eriksdotter. It can also remove essential combo pieces of theirs if they base their whole deck on a single win con such as Lab man, high tide, umbral mantle, etc. We seem to have many ways to keep recurring creatures and sacrificing them and continuously loop them to the point of exiling their whole libraries. I do see, however, it is a dead card by itself.
I have played karador for a long time, but recently created a competitive list and i have a few questions/clarifications if you all are down to help me out.
Mentor of the Meek: It seems we work on small amounts of mana with all the taxing and low turn count games. Do you often find him being a massive source of card draw or is he replacing saffi just as a potentially strong source of draw?
Living plane clarification: I assume that this works well with us due to our high count of nonland mana sources so linvala becomes one sided and of course elesh as a semi armageddon but is there something else that goes on with it that im missing?
Living plane clarification: I assume that this works well with us due to our high count of nonland mana sources so linvala becomes one sided and of course elesh as a semi armageddon but is there something else that goes on with it that im missing?
I've noticed that the hatebears are very vulnerable to board wipes specifically toxic deluge. I've used many turns to build up the grip of stax using hate bears, but once the toxic deluge comes down, it's really hard to come back since my combo hasn't been drawn. I agree that this deck needs a lot more draw power. I've considered phyrexian arena and necropotence in here just to get the explosive start. However, double and even triple black is difficult to pull off depending on the lands that you draw. I've even thought of putting aluren in here to provide instant stax pieces and build a board from nothing, but once again it is 4 mana and by that time, we should have won with combo. My meta is full of blue combo/control most of it being grixis or BUG. All of my pieces either countered or deluge'd so it's a bit difficult to pilot this. Do you guys have any suggestions as to what I can play? I am thinking of adding pieces that can enable quicker combos such as buried alive and victimize to get a sac outlet + boonweaver giant. With the addition of Cryptolith rite I believe we should be able to abuse armageddon too since we have Sun Titan and null rod with stony silence if they have mana rocks. I believe that's the route I will go. Flagstones of Trokair will help offset the balance of land stax and so will Cryptolith rite.
I've been playing Boonweaver Combo in 1v1 for a while but as more friends are picking up EDH we've been doing more group games, so I'm looking to modify my deck for multiplayer. Some choices are obvious, single target spells and aggro backup aren't going to be as effective in multiplayer. But there's some cards that I usually use that seem like good choices in multiplayer as well, that I'm wondering why they aren't used in any of the decks that have been posted in this thread. I was interested in your thoughts (hopefully this will give me more insight into how to play Karador in multiplayer too).
Liliana and Mindslicer both seem to me like cards that are good in 1v1 when backed up by disruption and removal. In multiplayer you risk either not having an impact (e.g. you plus Liliana and someone combos or wheels next turn) or giving someone else the game (e.g. you knock out everyone's hands, then someone else topdecks a tutor and wins shortly thereafter). In 1v1, getting one of these into play ( / graveyard) usually puts you at an advantage, but it becomes higher risk when you're playing against 3 players with 3 hands and 3 draw steps.
Chord of Calling and Ranger of Eos: Maybe a little more expensive than some other tutors but consistency is consistency
Chord is decent, maybe someone else has tried it already? The deck IS very mana hungry already, but Chord has definitely proved itself in Modern. I wouldn't run it without Wall of Roots. Ranger of Eos is in a few decks but it mostly just grabs Viscera Seer, and the 3/2 body is insignificant. I think I'd run Sidisi, Chord, or Buried Alive before running Ranger.
I underestimated Arbor Elf for a while, but I think it's actually one of the best accelerators in the deck. While it is conditional on having a Forest, you have ~18 of those in your deck (including fetches), and it usually also taps for green or black. It also helps you untap lands under a Winter Orb. I'm not running Wall of Roots, but if I added another accelerator to the deck, it'd be Wall of Roots. 2-drop mana accelerants are significant downgrades from 1-drop accelerants; the reason Karador plays so many mana dorks is to play them on turn 1. But at least you can use Wall of Roots the turn you play it, and maybe on your opponent's turns too. Besides, Wayfinder isn't ramp, it just helps you hit your land drop, which is ususlly worse than accelerating.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
I've tried the deck with and without Arbor. I've lost games to Dryad Arbor's summoning sickness, but I've also lost games to not having a t1 accelerant. Imagine your deck without any t1 mana dorks. Too slow to compete, right? Now imagine you have mana dorks again, but you draw your opening hand and the only t1 accelerant is GSZ. Are you going to sit there and wait until turn 3 to grab Teeg when your hand presumably already has a bunch of 2-3 mana action? What if you miss your third land drop? This is just one scenario which isn't particularly likely to happen. If, for example, the hand had a strong 2 mana play, I might not GSZ for Arbor, but several of the plays (e.g. Teeg) weaken GSZ anyway.
In short, I think whether or not to include Dryad Arbor is a VERY complex decision given how unique Arbor is. But I guess if you truly believe t1 GSZ for Arbor (probably the strongest upside) is garbage, none of the corner cases matter. In any case, I'm definitely going to continue playing with it just to gather more data.
T1 GSV for Arbor isn't a bad play. It's just the only strong play arbor gives you in my opinion. Dorks are ramp. When you play a normal dork, you can also play a land for turn, thus netting capacity for one extra mana. With arbor, you effectively lose your land for turn to play a dork. Would you play a dork that said "The turn you play this creature, you may not play a land."? Normal dorks also only succumb to wrath effects and Linvala/Cursed Totem effects. Winter Orb and MLD don't harm them in any way. Arbor is screwed by wraths, Linvala/Totem, Winter Orb effects, and MLD.
It is definitely unique and has some clever play angles not available to normal lands or dorks. But the liabilities outweigh the benefits in my view.
That's great. Data speaks volumes.
You've got some similar results to what I've experienced. Traverse the Ulvenwald hasn't been great (or at least not as great as it is in Angry Frog or Sidisi). Deathrite Shaman, Winter Orb, and Cryptolith Rite are all in my current iteration of the list. I really like Rite, not just because of the MLD resilience, but also because most of the hatebears don't really have much else to do, so turning them into Hate Dorks is great. The fact that it works when you have no land is gravy. I had looked into Earthcraft long ago, but the number of nonbasics in the list really hurts its viability.
I like running both Haruspex and Skullclamp. If you know that an opponent has a game winning line of play incoming, sacking a couple dorks preemptively to dig for an answer is absolutely worth it.
Dryad can also be fetched with a Green fetchland and block, he is a 0 CMC creature which can start a new Pod chain and grab carrion feeder or caustic caterpillar. With an elesh norn its a 3/3 in late game for free. You can atach it with pattern of rebirth, which could be easily resting in your hand after a wrath effect. Also, in my personal list, im using victimize assuring me always a creature thanks dryad Arbor.All of this just for one slot of my deck, sign me in.
I would never say i lost because i had a dryad arbor instead of a mana source since i did never count it as a mana produce land. Im playing 34 mana producing lands out 37 lands for Mox diamond land count purposes. The other three lands are bazaar of baghdad, dryad arbor and diamond valley.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
I agree with Cobblepott on this one.
I like to break problems like this down into smaller easier to solve problems that I can combine into one big solution. So, assuming we all agree that GSZ belongs in the deck, but we don't necessarily agree that Dryad Arbor belongs, we need to take each situation where Dryad Arbor affects the game in a positive/negative manner (relative to a basic Forest), multiply each of these by how likely they are to occur, and sum all these terms up to determine if Dryad Arbor's total impact is positive or negative. Here is a list of all the situations I can think of, ordered by how often they occur, also noting how good/bad I think the situation is on average. Note that if I say "GSZ in hand", I assume Dryad Arbor isn't in hand, because you obviously can't GSZ for it if it's in your hand.
Unfortunately, we don't have a huge database of games we can codify and analyze, so the math stops here. Does this means nothing has been accomplished? No, my actual point is that we can better inform our deckbuilding decisions by breaking down problems and answering the subproblems. At the very least, you will probably recognize a few uses for a card that you hadn't thought of, and maybe that's enough to change your opinion.
Personally, I think the probabilities are far enough on the "close" side that I think Dryad Arbor is worth running, but I certainly respect the argument against it. If I was guaranteed to play against Wraths, MLD, Linvala, etc, I'd definitely think twice. But I don't think GSZ+Arbor's "staple" status or the fact that it's banned in Modern is enough proof that it's an auto-include. cEDH is a weird format, and Boonweaver Karador doesn't really have any analogs in the professional Magic scene. There are bound to be a few surprising inclusions and exclusions.
Note: a case I didn't include on this list is when you (or someone else) plays a Winter Orb effect. Other than essentially being a tapped land (which is accounted for above), Dryad Arbor is not worse than a basic Forest. It is MUCH worse than a Llanowar Elves, but that's not a matter of deckbuilding; that's a matter of saving your GSZ if you're about to drop an Orb. Yes, not firing the GSZ off t1 does make it more likely that you draw it naturally, which does happen and is bad, but you shouldn't double-count this negative.
Keattz is playing two extra stax effects in Vryn Wingman, and Stony Silence. Cobbelpott has Apprentice Necromancer and Living Plane. Keattz is trading out Fiend Hunter for the lower cost Saffi Eriksdotter. Has Fiend Hunter's ability to exile an opponent's creature been relevant? Better put, has either creature been used outside of the combo? Cobbelpott is playing Mentor of the Meek over Phyrexian Arena.
Has any of these cards been an all star for either of you or is this differences in meta? I was particularly interested in the effectiveness of Living Plane as a win-con as opposed to Stony Silence's ability to shut down artifact based decks even as just a mana inhibitor.
Cobbelpott, did you enter the Reddit tournament? I know you made the final four last time around and another Karador Boonweaver deck made the final four this time.
Necromancer - Karador cares about creatures. Most of our relevant tutor support is creature oriented and creatures are much easier to recur.
Fiend Hunter - The only reason I choose this over Saffi is the fact that it acts as removal which is very relevant depending on the matchup.
Living Plane - This is really useful as a surprise alternate line of play. Most people will be holding their removal and interaction for the usual suspects like Rector, Reanimate, etc. Living Plane looks really innocuous until you immediately grab Elesh Norn or Linvala as a follow up.
Mentor of the Meek - I love this card. It's a creature that allows draw every time you play dorks/hatebears, which is all the time.
I'm sure meta likely plays into our varied choices for these slots. Living Plane is definitely tremendous though since it gives an easily assembled line of play that, in my opinion, is superior to Stony Silence.
I didn't enter this one. Though I participated in the previous three, winning one and making final table in another.
He did have Saffi Eriksdotter, Stony Silence, and Vryn Wingmare in common with Keattz (also Strip Mine). I know what you would cut for Saffi. My question for you is if someone put a loaded gun to your balls and told you to play Stony Silence and Vryn Wingmare what gets taken out of your deck?
How firm are you on Dryad Arbor? I read the whole debate and I understand both sides. I was wondering if another mana dork could be run in its place-possibly Bloom Tender (previous cut).
For me, Stony Silence is a fairly new addition, inspired by ifarmpanda's list in the /r/cEDH tourney. I've been super impressed by it.
I'm not sure on Saffi vs. Fiend Hunter. You only need one for the Boonweaver combo. Saffi and Loyal Retainers is technically an infinite pair, but I don't think this comes up TOO often. Mostly a decision of protecting your board vs. disrupting someone else's board.
EDIT: Didn't see the last three posts when I wrote this. I'm def gonna try out Living Plane soon. Also, my opinion on Dryad Arbor has only gotten more positive over the past few weeks. The more I play with it, the more lines of play I find.
I should have the rest of Cobbelpott's list arrive in the mail today. Stony Silence may be too good not to go into the deck. I know Brago and Sharuum are at the shop where I play.
Cobbelpott, what decks do you regularly face online? Are your games primarily 1v1? Which decks have the most success against you? If the games are 1v1, what decks have you encountered in a multiplayer setting that have had success? These questions are very relevant to me as I came to your list because of asking these same questions of other high level players.
Additionally, I've had 3 games recently where GSZ for Dryad Arbor put in work. Against other GWx decks, a lot of games are just races to get Elesh Norn on board. In two particularly mana-tight games, GSZ for Dryad Arbor got to the amount of mana to Survival/Fauna Shaman into Norn, then Retainers, and cast Retainers. In another game, an opponent cast MLD and I had no lands in hand, but I could float mana and cast Eladamri's Call to grab a Dryad Arbor. I was first to topdeck some ramp and rebuild my mana.
Obviously neither of these cases are GAME BREAKERS, but I just love the additional lines of play opened up by Dryad Arbor being in the deck.
"Now there will be people who criticize running a list without any noncreature removal, but Karador really needs to be as creature-oriented as possible."
My amended question is if the above statement is true why are you playing Swords to Plowshares? You have means to tutor a response to creatures Fiend Hunter and Shriekmaw, but a resolved Humility is game over. It would seem that in an unknown meta (online tournament) Nature's Claim would be an auto include. I am not advocating the removal of Swords to Plowshares. The final four Karador deck played both and is the imputus for this question.
Keattz, based on you playing paper I assume you encounter a lot of the same individuals. Gma, I would also like your input on this question. Has none of your.competitors incorporated Humility into their decks? Is Grand Arbiter Augustin IV the only competetive deck that can effectively play this card?
UBR Jeleva Grixis Storm
WBG Karador Boonweaver Combo
WUBRG Food Chain Tazri
Mentor of the Meek: It seems we work on small amounts of mana with all the taxing and low turn count games. Do you often find him being a massive source of card draw or is he replacing saffi just as a potentially strong source of draw?
Living plane clarification: I assume that this works well with us due to our high count of nonland mana sources so linvala becomes one sided and of course elesh as a semi armageddon but is there something else that goes on with it that im missing?
Linvala, Keeper of Silence is asymmetrical.
UBR Jeleva Grixis Storm
WBG Karador Boonweaver Combo
WUBRG Food Chain Tazri
Liliana of the Veil and Mindslicer: Knocking out everyone's disruption seems good?
Chord of Calling and Ranger of Eos: Maybe a little more expensive than some other tutors but consistency is consistency
Satyr Wayfinder: One of the subpar accelerators but with the self-mill I'd probably use him before Arbor Elf or Wall of Roots?
Liliana and Mindslicer both seem to me like cards that are good in 1v1 when backed up by disruption and removal. In multiplayer you risk either not having an impact (e.g. you plus Liliana and someone combos or wheels next turn) or giving someone else the game (e.g. you knock out everyone's hands, then someone else topdecks a tutor and wins shortly thereafter). In 1v1, getting one of these into play ( / graveyard) usually puts you at an advantage, but it becomes higher risk when you're playing against 3 players with 3 hands and 3 draw steps.
Chord is decent, maybe someone else has tried it already? The deck IS very mana hungry already, but Chord has definitely proved itself in Modern. I wouldn't run it without Wall of Roots. Ranger of Eos is in a few decks but it mostly just grabs Viscera Seer, and the 3/2 body is insignificant. I think I'd run Sidisi, Chord, or Buried Alive before running Ranger.
I underestimated Arbor Elf for a while, but I think it's actually one of the best accelerators in the deck. While it is conditional on having a Forest, you have ~18 of those in your deck (including fetches), and it usually also taps for green or black. It also helps you untap lands under a Winter Orb. I'm not running Wall of Roots, but if I added another accelerator to the deck, it'd be Wall of Roots. 2-drop mana accelerants are significant downgrades from 1-drop accelerants; the reason Karador plays so many mana dorks is to play them on turn 1. But at least you can use Wall of Roots the turn you play it, and maybe on your opponent's turns too. Besides, Wayfinder isn't ramp, it just helps you hit your land drop, which is ususlly worse than accelerating.