I feel like Panharmonicon is a card that would be better in a version of this deck that was looking to abuse ETBs more effectively. I've basically never thought to myself (while playing the deck) "gosh I wish THAT triggered twice". It goes in the pile with Conjurer's Closet and Strionic Resonator as super sweet, but not really needed.
He does stop a few combos
[...]
He's barely playable
[...]
cheat him into play. He's pretty bad
[...]
the lock he imposes
[...]
I'm happy to see him
[...]
Is he the winner
Have you ever looked closely at Elesh Norn picture (Marrow Shards might be even more helpful in this case)? It's a woman...
And regarding Elesh Norn vs Massacre Wurm debate: I'd rather play against half a dozen Massacre Wurms than against a single Elesh Norn.
To really mess with your plans using Elesh, I'd have to put her in the bin ASAP somehow and reanimate her, which can only happen if I keep Entomb/Vampiric Tutor + Reanimate/Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead in my opener. I can't really count on that happening too often, can I?
True, but Elesh Norn is great not only against me, mind you. Like Elfric said, she completely turns off quite a lot of decks and severely cripples many others. Against some decks you need her onboard very fast or it might be too late (Derevi, Arcum, Narset etc.), but against others she's great even if dropped a turn or two later - any elfball (and we have both Yisan and Ezuri in our meta), Prossh, Kiki-Jiki (think Oskar and his Temur combo) and so on.
I found another possible benefit to Wurm. If your opponent has a big creature that is hurting you, and you're able to recur the Wurm, you might be able to play him multiple times for multiple ETBs. Yes, this is veeeeeeeery improbable, but still possible.
I think we can summarize the debate as follows:
Elesh Norn has a static ability that can shut down decks for an extended period, but it's harder to reach.
Massacre Wurm has the Academy Rector+Eldrich Evolution line. In other words, it is more accessible and it empowers a line of play, but it is a one-time deal.
So the question becomes: Is the accessibility of Wurm worth the static ability of Elesh Norn?
Note that this is only if you are limited to only one of the two. Also, if sideboards are a possibility you might be able to switch them depending on match-up.
Gonna have to do some play testing on this one.
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The creature stealing is a thing. Massacre Wurm would not really hurt us if they use Treachery, and only a mild pain if they use bribery.
The tempo gained from one the single activation of the Wurm might be enough to win, after all we are a combo deck.
Wow I might swap them and see what happens. I'll play this deck on the weekend.
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i just add Cataclysmic Gearhulk to my 99 and boy is he good, hes not good, hes insane!!!! he has won 5 matches all by himself, and been a creature makes it perfect, he was made for this deck, give him a try
Yeah, I think it's a BIG fat no on Collective Brutality. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't contribute to you winning the game, it doesn't synergize particularly well with the deck (other than it let's you discard something to reanimate I guess?) and it's not a creature to get repeated value. It's also particularly week in multiplayer where it maybe picks off a mana dork or hate bear and take just an instant or sorcery from one player. In hundreds of games with this deck I can't think of a spot where I really would want the card.
As for Cataclysmic Gearhulk it has the makings of a card for the deck, but giving your opponents a choice is just too much of a drawback for me. I almost never care about killing the worst X number of my opponents creatures, artifacts or lands. All or nothing and there's so FEW cards this deck cares about. I'd take single target removal that can deal with the one thing I actually NEED to kill rather than multi-permanent removal that frequently won't kill the thing you need to die. I can see it's value in a more traditional ETB value Karador deck, but not here.
Yeah, I think it's a BIG fat no on Collective Brutality. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't contribute to you winning the game, it doesn't synergize particularly well with the deck (other than it let's you discard something to reanimate I guess?) and it's not a creature to get repeated value. It's also particularly week in multiplayer where it maybe picks off a mana dork or hate bear and take just an instant or sorcery from one player. In hundreds of games with this deck I can't think of a spot where I really would want the card.
Play Collective Brutality, discarding Boonweaver, targeting the blue player to get their counterspell and kill a Hushwing Gryff/Aven Mindcensor/some other hatebear that stops your plan. In this scenario, Collective Brutality is a must-counter that still bins your Boonweaver. I don't understand how this is a farfetched scenario. Against which decks are you playing? If anything, Collective Brutality could at least be a meta call.
Isn't that what SotF and Fauna Shaman are here for? Why add a sub-par sorcery speed discard outlet? And most importantly -- what to take out for it?
It's a bit unfair comparing Brutality to one of the strongest cards that Karador plays as well as its creature substitute. Looking at alfindeol's list (since he originally dismissed the card and I'm not sure that cobblepott's list in the OP is current or at least dicussed in recent posts here) I could easily see myself replacing Sheoldred, False Prophet or Necrotic Sliver. All of those cards are expensive and clunky to use, while Brutality is cheap and easy to utilize on the turn you wish to combo. I feel it shouldn't be viewed as a subpar discard outlet, but a cheap proactive removal piece that can deal with multiple problems at once.
Too slow and not recurable and we actually have to hard cast it. The only way to cheat it into play is Rector but there are better options. Also, hate cards that have only 1 target are not that viable. You spend 1 card and mana to stop 1 guy from doing 1 thing. Remember, in EDH trading 1 for 1 is not that good because the remaining 2 players now have card advantage.
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Meta calls. I don't play in a particularly cutthroat meta and a recur-able board wipe False Prophet, a recur-able catch-all removal spell Necrotic Sliver or Sheoldred, who dominates a board when players aren't packing ample spot removal are all better than a sorcery speed spell that simply doesn't do any of the things I want. If you're hard up for a way to discard a Boonweaver if you do draw it, there are way better options. It's also hard to call it a "removal" piece" since -2/-2 is hardly removal in most cases. Hell it doesn't even operate as catch-all disruption as you might just whiff on an opponent who isn't holding an instant or sorcery.
You're welcome to play it, I just think it's an odd inclusion as it's greatest synergy with the deck is that it says "discard a card" on it...
Hey GMA, I missed the discussion from pages 3 to 7 or so but I have a question is Iona still in the deck? I haven't taken it out because my meta plays a lot of blue. Retainers into Iona is solid. However, if Iona is not in there I can definitely see him being removed.
Yisan is very strong in my opinion. In my LGS people always kill my sac outlets so being able to put one on the field at instant speed is powerful. Also, if you manage to get a second or third activation you can get a hate bear. There's a tier 1 deck around Yisan so his strength is definitely there.
I have yet to switch Elesh Norn with Wurm so I can't test it yet (I don't even own a Wurm haha). I haven't been testing the deck too much because I'm trying to make Derevi work. But I'll definitely try it when I get a chance.
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Yeah I doubt I'll miss them. I usually only play Elesh Norn when playing against weaker decks because I just want to play a longer game. When I'm actually trying to win ASAP Elesh Norn is not my first choice.
Thanks man. I'll definitely check those out.
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Hi gma. I just want to double check, your Karador #12 is your most recent rendition of Karador. I need a little help with understanding when it is a good time to play Winter Orb or Hokori. Should I just play it as soon as possible similar to that of a Derevi deck. Also, I know that we switched the Elesh for Massacre Wurm. Decks in my playgroup consists of Prossh, Derevi, Meren, Arcum, Narset, Kaalia, Teferi (Planewalker), Xenagos, Zur, Purphoros, Maelstrom Wanderer, Oloro, Sen Triplets, Superfriends, Avacyn, and Freyalise (and probably some more but more irrelevant than anything). I usually play against Arcum/Narset, Kaalia, then either Teferi, Xenagos, Zur, or Derevi. Given that I always have two decks which require the summoning of commanders with a 2 as their toughness I feel the static ability at least in my playgroup is better or more reliable, especially since Massacre Wurm only does its -2/-2 for that turn. The Arcum, Narset and Kallia decks are the ones I most want to hose or beat. What would you say is the better of the two to run if I am trying to win against those specific decks more. I know Massacre Wurm is better overall, but I have more of a reason to beat those decks because one is my twin brother and a close friend (whom I have never really beaten well, I just upgraded my deck a lot this year). I do not have a Gaea's Cradle because it is expensive, what should I run in its place. Because of that should I still keep Weathered Wayfarer in the deck, as I know his main purpose is to bring out cradle. The final thing, is that if they make a Commander that has Blue in addition to our colors, but the commander is not necessarily meant for reanimation, do we start to splash blue. I ask because I know in Combo you try to finish out fast, much before Karador is played. But lets say it does relate to reanimation, what cards should we be trying to pick up for the splash of blue, or red for that matter. I know Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron are a must if blue, but what if its Red. I know this is a lot to read, but I figured get it out of the way than do many small posts.
Thanks.
Heyo, just recently converted my junk hatebear stax deck over to boonweaver. Been having a blast so far with it. Currently using Anafenza at the helm instead of Karador because I keep seeing that Karador rarely comes out during games and my meta runs a lot of creature/graveyard strats. Having an additional bear in the command-zone that can pressure life totals (vs Necropotence/Adnaus/greedy decks in general) and also boosts bloom tender to generate 3 mana is nice too.
@GMA I saw your list and was curious how Dark Tutelage has been treating you? Also have you tried splashing in Leonin Relic-Warder in your list? It gives you infinite death triggers for Blood Artist and also provides some decent removal.
[quote from="Massacre775 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/621075-karador-boonweaver-combo?comment=306"]
Well, that really depends on the commander, doesn't it? But in all honesty, I'm against diluting already stretched mana base with the fourth color for a few extra effects. Current shell is so tight that making cuts is hard as hell and adding another color will probably end up in making a new deck from scratch. As for the combo, Boonweaver is one of the fastest combos available to cEDH players, so adding midrange'y Palinchron + Deadeye is a no-no.
I'm in a love/hate relationship with Dark Tutelage, but the card stays because it works wonders under Spirit of the Labyrinth.
I thought hard about using Leonin (you can win with Haruspex in Blood Artist's place, too) and like the line, but IMHO it's kind of win more. It's like the Saffi + Retainers + Haruspex/Artist line, but slightly harder to tutor for because Animate Dead is not a creature. Of course if your meta is drowning in artifacts/enchantments by all means use the Cat Cleric.
I checked out the 4C Boonweaver Cobb's been brewin' and for now it does not convince me. He kinda went the goodstuff route and after giving it some thought I really can't tell why just not play the 5c Food Chain Tazri instead.
Good point on that Spirit synergy. I'll have to give Tutelage a shot then.
I'm still new to the deck obviously, but I wouldn't necessarily consider Relic-Warder as win more. In the sense of Reveillark and friends, sure its redundant, but it is another line that just meshes with the list. Leonin removes a plethora of problems like Fiend Hunter does so it is easy to abuse with a sac outlet and the deck already runs animate dead/dance and artist/haru so it just seems like a fit to me. But again, I'm still inexperienced on all the nuances of this list so I may come around to your way of thinking after I get some more games with it.
As for 4C Boon, I think blue is definitely a solid contributor to the list, particularly it adds interaction with the stack, which is the biggest flaw of the deck. Its worthy to experiment, but I'll personally stick to Junk/Abzan if the new WUBG commanders suck.
Thanks for all the info and tips btw! I'll definitely be around to ask for advice and post experiences when I get more games in.
I do not have ImpSeal, I was thinking either Sylvan Tutor, like you said a removal, in this case anguished unmaking, stony silence, or altar to bone. Let me know if you have any other recommendations, but for me I am currently leaning towards Stony Silence. To have a harder lock on artifacts. Or perhaps I simply add Loyal Retainers to the list so that change in respect to your Karador 12, Instead of Massacre When, Elesh, and instead of ImpSeal, Loyal Retainers. BTW I am running Nature's Revolt instead of Living Plane at the moment, is that OK for the time being, already have Linvala and Elesh.
Hi, I've followed this board for a while and wanted to share my list to get thoughts on what should be my first cuts to get closer to being as effective as this list.
Easiest cuts I see are Congregation at Dawn, Hornet Queen and Void Winnower. I think you're much better off with some low-cost hatebear style cards in those slots. If that's too "stax-y" for you, just some decent value cards that let you pick off troublesome permanents fit nicely there. Also, find a spot for High Market.
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
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GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
Have you ever looked closely at Elesh Norn picture (Marrow Shards might be even more helpful in this case)? It's a woman...
And regarding Elesh Norn vs Massacre Wurm debate: I'd rather play against half a dozen Massacre Wurms than against a single Elesh Norn.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
True, but Elesh Norn is great not only against me, mind you. Like Elfric said, she completely turns off quite a lot of decks and severely cripples many others. Against some decks you need her onboard very fast or it might be too late (Derevi, Arcum, Narset etc.), but against others she's great even if dropped a turn or two later - any elfball (and we have both Yisan and Ezuri in our meta), Prossh, Kiki-Jiki (think Oskar and his Temur combo) and so on.
GWU Derevi, the Prison Queen UWG
I think we can summarize the debate as follows:
Elesh Norn has a static ability that can shut down decks for an extended period, but it's harder to reach.
Massacre Wurm has the Academy Rector+Eldrich Evolution line. In other words, it is more accessible and it empowers a line of play, but it is a one-time deal.
So the question becomes: Is the accessibility of Wurm worth the static ability of Elesh Norn?
Note that this is only if you are limited to only one of the two. Also, if sideboards are a possibility you might be able to switch them depending on match-up.
Gonna have to do some play testing on this one.
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
By the way what card is SofT?
The creature stealing is a thing. Massacre Wurm would not really hurt us if they use Treachery, and only a mild pain if they use bribery.
The tempo gained from one the single activation of the Wurm might be enough to win, after all we are a combo deck.
Wow I might swap them and see what happens. I'll play this deck on the weekend.
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
KARADOR FTWWHitEBlaCkGREEn
KARADOR FTWWHitEBlaCkGREEn
As for Cataclysmic Gearhulk it has the makings of a card for the deck, but giving your opponents a choice is just too much of a drawback for me. I almost never care about killing the worst X number of my opponents creatures, artifacts or lands. All or nothing and there's so FEW cards this deck cares about. I'd take single target removal that can deal with the one thing I actually NEED to kill rather than multi-permanent removal that frequently won't kill the thing you need to die. I can see it's value in a more traditional ETB value Karador deck, but not here.
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
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Why no Nevemore in the deck as a hate card for enemy commanders are specific combo pieces?
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
You're welcome to play it, I just think it's an odd inclusion as it's greatest synergy with the deck is that it says "discard a card" on it...
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
Turn your junk into something great with PucaTrade!
Yisan is very strong in my opinion. In my LGS people always kill my sac outlets so being able to put one on the field at instant speed is powerful. Also, if you manage to get a second or third activation you can get a hate bear. There's a tier 1 deck around Yisan so his strength is definitely there.
I have yet to switch Elesh Norn with Wurm so I can't test it yet (I don't even own a Wurm haha). I haven't been testing the deck too much because I'm trying to make Derevi work. But I'll definitely try it when I get a chance.
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
Thanks man. I'll definitely check those out.
GWUDerevi, Empyrial TaPticianGWU
BGWKarador, Ghost ChieftainBGW
UGMomir Vig, Simic VisionaryUG
Thanks.
Here is my current list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-08-16-anafenza-edh/
@GMA I saw your list and was curious how Dark Tutelage has been treating you? Also have you tried splashing in Leonin Relic-Warder in your list? It gives you infinite death triggers for Blood Artist and also provides some decent removal.
IIRC, Cobblepot is currently playing/testing 4C Boonweaver. Looks really interesting so far.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/four-color-boonweaver-combocontrol/
Good point on that Spirit synergy. I'll have to give Tutelage a shot then.
I'm still new to the deck obviously, but I wouldn't necessarily consider Relic-Warder as win more. In the sense of Reveillark and friends, sure its redundant, but it is another line that just meshes with the list. Leonin removes a plethora of problems like Fiend Hunter does so it is easy to abuse with a sac outlet and the deck already runs animate dead/dance and artist/haru so it just seems like a fit to me. But again, I'm still inexperienced on all the nuances of this list so I may come around to your way of thinking after I get some more games with it.
As for 4C Boon, I think blue is definitely a solid contributor to the list, particularly it adds interaction with the stack, which is the biggest flaw of the deck. Its worthy to experiment, but I'll personally stick to Junk/Abzan if the new WUBG commanders suck.
Thanks for all the info and tips btw! I'll definitely be around to ask for advice and post experiences when I get more games in.
I do not have ImpSeal, I was thinking either Sylvan Tutor, like you said a removal, in this case anguished unmaking, stony silence, or altar to bone. Let me know if you have any other recommendations, but for me I am currently leaning towards Stony Silence. To have a harder lock on artifacts. Or perhaps I simply add Loyal Retainers to the list so that change in respect to your Karador 12, Instead of Massacre When, Elesh, and instead of ImpSeal, Loyal Retainers. BTW I am running Nature's Revolt instead of Living Plane at the moment, is that OK for the time being, already have Linvala and Elesh.
1x Altar of Dementia
1x Animate Dead
1x Arctic Flats
1x Aura Shards
1x Barren Moor
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Birthing Pod
1x Blood Artist
1x Bloodghast
1x Boonweaver Giant
1x Buried Alive
1x Carrion Feeder
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Congregation at Dawn
1x Corpse Augur
1x Dance of the Dead
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Doomed Necromancer
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Elfhame Palace
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Eternal Witness
1x Evolving Wilds
1x False Prophet
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Forest
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Golgari Signet
1x Graypelt Refuge
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Hornet Queen
1x Hymn of Rebirth
1x Karmic Guide
1x Kessig Cagebreakers
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Living Death
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Meteor Crater
1x Orzhov Basilica
1x Orzhov Signet
1x Pattern of Rebirth
2x Plains
1x Quirion Elves
1x Reanimate
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Regrowth
1x Reveillark
1x Rupture Spire
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scoured Barrens
1x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Selesnya Signet
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Shred Memory
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Stitch Together
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sun Titan
1x Sunblast Angel
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
4x Swamp
1x Tainted Field
1x Tainted Wood
1x Temple of the False God
1x Terminal Moraine
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Vesuva
1x Viscera Seer
1x Void Winnower
1x Wood Elves
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Yavimaya Hollow
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I was trying to shy away from a star/tax feel, but would love some feedback from the community.
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
Turn your junk into something great with PucaTrade!
R Norin the Wary: I've Got a Bad Feeling About This
UG Thrasios & Kydele: Knowledge is Power
RG Borborygmos Enraged: The Breaking of the World
BG The Gitrog Monster: All Glory to the Hypnotoad
WUR Zedruu the Greathearted: Endless Possibilities, One Outcome
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain: What's Dead May Never Die
Turn your junk into something great with PucaTrade!