If you wanted to run Blood Sun in here, you'd probably need to do away with the fetches. It would also hose Kessig Wolf Run et al., plus the hideaway lands. I guess you'd just have to test whether it's worth it really.
I forgot it kills fetch lands. Guess it's not really worth considering for this deck after all.
Fetches are not a necessity for a functional mana base. If the sun provides enough benefit, removing them wouldn't hurt that much, especially as the list doesn't seem to run Crucible of Worlds or anything.
I think I'd much rather run Blood Moon, as I don't mind fetches being turned off as long as they make SOME kind of mana, especially if it's in a color that I can abundantly use.. We are pretty mana hungry, so if we were to run Blood Sun, we can't risk having our fetches be dead draws when it is out.
Also, fetches do help a lot with library manipulation and getting to what we want. We just don't use our GY that much.
I haven't had issues getting Emrakul in when I need to after so many games, so I think the spot is earned.
I hope you guys don't mind me going tangential this once. I invented a new multi-player format for edh. There's basically no traffic on the Variant commander forum where the thread lives. Y'all should check it out. It's very easy to understand, enhances politics and speed in multi-player games. Also, Xenagos is a good choice as a commander for this variant!
I won't speak of it any more here. I just respect all the posters on this thread and figure it could be a good way to get feedback while spreading this awesome idea.
Etali is a somewhat high variance card that is viable for 4+ player games. However, he is a lot of fun, has all of the synergy he could ever want in the deck, and managorger never won any games.
I'm considering Azor's gateway. I think my list just wants even more card draw/filtering. I don't have Sylvan library and some other great cheap card draw, so this looks nice.
I'm considering Azor's gateway. I think my list just wants even more card draw/filtering. I don't have Sylvan library and some other great cheap card draw, so this looks nice.
Paying mana to loot each turn is a huge cost to your tempo, however.
I see what you're saying. I realized I have some other cheap cards I took out of my deck that might be better. Do you think Triumph of ferocity and elemental bond might be better choices? I'm leaning towards triumph of ferocity. It has the ability to keep drawing me cards off one creature being out. Considering I ramp faster than my opponents, and play larger creatures on average, I should be able to draw more than one card off triumph with just one creature.
I still need selvala too, so I won't spend my $ on Azor's gateway since selvala looks like the superior card to spend my money on.
I had a nice win the other day. My Savage ventmaw was put offline from maze of ith during combat phase. I cast relentless assault after that for the win. Surprised my friend who hadn't seen my upgraded xenagos deck do that.
If anything, you'd get better mileage out of Elemental Bond style stuff. Triumph of Ferocity hedges on your stuff living until you untap. Well, you untapped with a beefslab, what's the problem?
Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is beyond broken and one of those cards that I encourage everyone to acquire at some point EVEN IF they are on a budget. I'm talking cards on the level of Sneak Attack.
I literally cannot remember the last time I lost when I tapped it for 14 mana. The card draw ability basically may give you one or two extra cards (or someone else a card) but it's not a significant feature of the card.
Lastly, yeah extra combats are good. They are definitely good for breaking through maze, although be careful if you think they have spot removal as backup.
I've actually found some other options too. What y'all think of these as budget options for sylvan library, selvala, wheel of fortune, mirri's guile and the like. I will definitely make selvala my next purchase when I have the cash for it. She's only going up from here most likely and is a great effect for the cost. As to the other cards, I almost never spend even $20 on a card. Thanks for critiquing my budget choices.
First of all, I stuck in wheel of fate which looks like an obvious replacement for Wheel of fortune. I also already had Reforge the soul in as well. Having some card draw that's not dependent upon creatures seems good, and that's what more expensive $ enchantment based card filtering options provide.
What I'm really interested in hearing thoughts on is Mask of memory. This seems like a perfect compromise between triumph of ferocity and elemental bond. It's still really cheap to use, and with the bonus of digging 2 cards deep. We should be able to find discard fodder pretty easily as lands/ramp spells become unimportant mid/late game. I like that it is a repeatable effect with only one creature on the board.
I put elemental bond in the deck, but I may just take it out to add another giant creature. I think Wheel of fate and mask of memory may provide just enough of a boost until I get that selvala. I'm also already running soul of the harvest which has been a great help so far.
Does anyone else have budget options or pet cards not featured in Plushpenguin's list they run?
Etali, primal storm looks good. I'll put it in when I find a copy. I'm still liking Ghalta, primal hunger too. I'll let you know if I get more stories about its credibility. The couple of times it showed up so far it's been great.
You guys are a tremendous help. All of this feedback has really helped me up my edh deck building skills in general. I had some idea about narrowing down the purpose of a deck before. This thread has really helped me learn the finer intricacies of cmc, card evaluation, and considering potential board states when evaluating a card.
I'm going to say that I actually do like Mask of Memory a lot. It makes my personal list of top 5 equipments even though I don't own one right now. The mana cost and equip cost is perfect for what you get out of it. I'd actually play it over all of the swords except Feast and Famine in any given list.
I do not run it because my library manipulation suite helps my setup too, while this card is only active once you start attacking, but don't get me wrong, mask is a great card and I think for a budget choice it is excellent. One game I ended up stealing one with Hellkite Tyrant and getting two hits with the mask allowed me to win the game.
Lastly, yeah, the way I like to evaluate cards is to understand what I'm facing and then try to envision an average case, a best case scenario, and a worst case scenario. I'm completely okay with playing risky cards as long as the payoff can be really good.
I've been tuning the list further and had a cool realization about Ghalta, Primal Hunger while playing solo through tappedout.net
I had a turn 6 (could have been turn 5 if I didn't have to use harmonize on a turn) Savage ventmaw with xenagos out. Attack in with ventmaw, play relentless assault and ghalta. Have a second attack phase for a total of 50 damage on turn 6. (I think it might have been possible to pull it off turn 5 too.) I also had 6 mana up to use other cards in my hand after that.
The secret tech here is playing ghalta for cheap while having an extra combat trick ready. Another example: If Hellkite Charger is already on the field when you start your turn with 9 mana available. Get in with hellkite for 10, add an extra combat phase, play ghalta for GG then pump it and get in for another 34 for a total of 44 damage between 2 cards and xenagos.
If you can afford an extra combat, the math works out so that if you have a 5 or 6 power creature on the board, plus an extra combat step, it's actually still equally or more profitable damage wise to play out ghalta and target it, instead of the first creature again with xenagos. As an added bonus, your damage output is split between two creatures on your second combat step instead of being funneled into one easier to remove creature. The ability to split up the damage between opponents is potentially quite useful.
There is the draw back of xenagos potentially becoming a creature. On the other hand, killing off one or two opponents in one go could be worth the risk. After all, if someone removes xenagos, they didn't remove your other giant creatures instead. You still have two giant creatures waiting when you play xenagos again for a mere 7. You also get in for 6 more damage if xenagos does become a creature and isn't removed.
Also, is Silvos, Rogue Elemental potentially a better Plated Crusher? He can survive board wipes and has more power. Saving the extra mana might be a drain, but you can still regenerate him once for the same cost as playing a plated crusher. It seemed worth mentioning due to the higher power and ability to survive board wipes. I find board wipes to be more common than targeted removal. Holding up 1 or 2 green doesn't seem to be asking much late game either. I figure we at least get a 2 for 1 plus 16 trample damage for 7 mana if people are that zealous about removing it.
This deck is favored versus decks that rely on boardwipes for answering board states.
Anyway, I find that a lot of targeted removal tends to be the older kind of removal where all sorts of "cannot be regenerated" text was printed. I'm talking Snuff Out, Pongify variants, and of course, the exile removal Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. Even Reality Shift exiles, meaning that regeneration is not a particularly valuable defense against such removal.
Meanwhile, most boardwipes do not have such text. However, we innately fight through boardwipes extremely well unless our board is full of mana dorks.
As for me, I don't think I can reasonably play Emrakul and Ghalta in the same deck without losing consistency. I'd have to pick one, although the case you bring up is enticing. Makes me wish they printed a 3 mana Seize the Day variant without flashback.
Plated crusher and carnage tyrant are two of the strongest attackers in my deck. There is no way I would remove them. However, I must admit that as an additional attacker, sylvos has merit. Sylvos certainly isn't bad, by any means.
Thanks for reminding me of all the exile clause and can't be regenerated removal y'all. The hexproof does clearly seem better.
I updated my list quite a bit. I decided not to go with joraga treespeaker, birds of paradise and somberwald stage as ramp. Land, enchanment and artifact based ramp looks better to me as it means less devotion and it's harder to remove in general. My mana curve is higher than the plushpenguin's list. As such I've tried to focus on spells that will ramp us up by 2 mana. The cheaper ramp spells focus on color fixing.
Here are pet cards I put in the deck. Some are for budget reasons, some are because I like them enough to make room for them:
Thought vessel This seems like an overlooked card for us. I like it better than the one cost sac a land to search for a land card (blanking on name.) This card ramps us, and gives us no maximum handsize. Instead of using two cards to choose between ramping further or no max. handsize, we can get both on one card.
Swiftfoot boots This card seemed redundant at first. However, my list lacks some of the other hexproof/creature protection spells. I like this better than Vines of vastwood for instance. A reusable hexproof for only 1 mana investment to equip looks better long term than this. Also, I don't want to feel held back from turning xenagos into a creature if I want to. When I thought about it, the haste aspect can still serve us too if we are going to play 2 creatures in a turn for a major blowout to finish the game.
Fierce empath/woodland bellower combo. (I'm missing some of the more $ tutors, so this helps make up for it.) I still think this combo is worth playing alongside the other more expensive tutors. Note that bellower getting out fierce empath makes bellower a kind of cantrip tutor on a 6/5 body for 6 mana. You don't care that bellower doesn't have evasion, because you can get your best evasive fatty into hand with it. I also like that bellower can get my Shaman of forgotten ways. This card can just override the board state and just outright kill some people if they have no creatures out. Note we could kill the entire table with a one cost blasphemous act, shaman of forgotten ways, pump with xenagos for haste, then make everyone else's life total 0 for a total of 15 mana. Bellower also gets out Combat celebrant, nothing to sneeze at.
Ghalta, Primal hunger I've talked about a couple of times before, look back a few posts on this page and one page back.
Tyrant's familiar This guy can just help us stay alive while attacking in. Killing off the biggest creature possible while attacking the most fearsome opponent is pretty nice. Just kill off whatever you think will be pointed at you next chance it has. I also search for Atarka world render quite often so extra dragons are good.
stonehoof chieftain expensive to cast, but I like having some creatures with staying power. Also worth the cost when he can provide trample to everyone else. He can be especially good if we get to that point where xenagos becomes a creature. There may be a better card than this for the deck, but he's served me well every time he comes out.
Heroic intervention flexibility due to protecting against wipes and spot removal.
In general, my list has more big creatures (19) fewer extra combat damage and protection spells. I decided to go with more creatures for now as I have even more card draw effects that rely on creatures like Lifecrafter's bestiary and Soul of the harvest. We also want to feel free to sac. creatures to the other effects at the same time.
Here's the new list. The parenthesis stand for the number in that category when counting the creatures that also fall into that category.
Your primary argument of going for less efficient artifact based ramp is to decrease devotion, yet you want to run Woodland Bellower + Fierce Empath as a tutor package which will immediately increase your devotion by 3. This seems to need some more thought.
I will reply more thoroughly when I can.
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Your primary argument of going for less efficient artifact based ramp is to decrease devotion, yet you want to run Woodland Bellower + Fierce Empath as a tutor package which will immediately increase your devotion by 3. This seems to need some more thought.
I will reply more thoroughly when I can.
Actually my primary reason for land/enchantment/artifact based ramp is because they are harder to remove. I feel people I play with will be smart enough to use removal on somberwald stag or use an early boardwipe for instance, because they know how far it will put me behind. The deck feels like it wants to run as few lands and ramp spells as possible. To accomplish this, we want the ramp we do have to stick around. Another upside for artifact and enchantment ramp is that it can usually be used the turn it comes out, vs. a creature you must wait for. This can be relevant in playing out 2 vs. 1 spell out per turn.
Perhaps I should put crop rotation back in the deck. I don't have Ancient tomb and use Temple of the false god instead which is why I think it looks less appealing to me. You make a good case for the other lands it can search for being important though.
Maybe thought vessel doesn't replace crop rotation, but does it make sense to find a spot for it in the deck? I think so as it's an extra no max. handsize effect, which the deck wants more of in my opinion. There's no better feeling than having a hand full of 20+ cards.
The bellower/fierce empath. Again, I see it as a replacement for better tutor effects. I don't worry about the devotion too much, because fierce empath is just a chump blocker who will die before my next turn most likely. It's not like our deck is known for it's defense, and it is known for putting us on people's sh** list real quick. Once fierce empath dies, we play the creature we tutored for on our next turn alongside baloth without turning on xenagos. Empath can also be used for skullclamp, Mask of memory fodder. I don't have to search for empath either. Tireless Tracker is worth searching for if i'm low on cards.
My deck does lack some of the more efficient card draw spells, so finding little bits of card advantage here and there seems to help it play more consistently.
The reasons for the creature ratio and ramp choices that I have for my deck are stated here:
1) Consistency. I use cheap tutors to supplement this because stuffing a deck with >10 6+ drops is very taxing on a deck. Therefore, as a necessity, in order to lower my curve I play fewer big things. We've all had those hands where we just end up drawing into 3 big creatures but no insane ramp or damage amplification (or even just the lands) to keep up with the rest of the table. This is also why I run so much library manipulation. It is because we want to draw a certain ratio of effects (and preferably not in the wrong order if possible). I like the amount of draw effects that we are running, because we honestly want to hit one if we are to keep up with the rest of the table. To make up for playing fewer big things, I play more damage amp, but the cards that I run are designed to synergize with the extra combats well.
Speaking of tutors, I'm amazed that I feel like I'm the only person who likes Gamble here. Even if you don't own a Mana Crypt, Gambling for Sol Ring is still a pretty strong play and I've usually only lost around 1/6 of my gambles, which if you think about a multiplayer winrate, the number of times you lose a winnable game from a failed gamble would be even less than that. Also, when you draw it late, getting Seize the Day or Rishkar's Expertise can be pretty strong.
2) Speed. The mana dorks can die to boardwipes, but some of them generate so much mana for such a low cost that it feels absolutely worth the risk. Cutting down on high drops also contributes to a faster deck. If you find yourself in a position where your speed is not enough to put you ahead on tempo of the rest of the table, consider adding another boardwipe to buy you time. I like that more than chump blocking. Also, sometimes, random Etali, Primal Storm hits give you enough bodies to gum up the ground for your opponents.
Lastly, the only reason I cut thought vessel is because I had something more powerful or versatile to run in its place.
In fairness, if you're bringing up the resilience argument, artifacts/enchantments die too. If you want to err on the safe side, you pretty much have to keep it lands only, as popping those is quite taboo. However, if you do that, you lose a lot of the explosiveness that makes you viable. The longer you take to get going, the more the board gets gummed and the less effective you become. I know it from experience quite a lot - back in 2014/2015, I kept dying quite often to a Xenagod while I was playing my Patron of the Orochi build. I'd often be disposed of around turn 4/5, and then the guy would have severe trouble getting through the random debris that popped up around the rest of the table. Playing it super safe with ramp essentially surrenders that window of opportunity for you. You just don't get that luxury. If you're concerned with getting your mana popped, latch onto the guy most likely to wipe, I guess?
We must have very different levels of playgroups to be sure. Everyone mentions being faster and keeping up with the rest of the table. I feel like my deck is always the fastest on damage output at the table. It seems like everyone is trying to keep up with me. (I also only play Xenagos in games of 3, 4, and only occasionally 5 players.)
I guess I'm just not seeing how much faster y'all can possibly be with creatures. Joraga Treespeaker vs. overgrowth for instance. Overgrowth is always better/faster except if you play joraga turn 1, in which case joraga is slightly faster. The ability to use overgrowth the turn it comes out seems much better to me as it can lead to the two spells in a turn much more often than joraga ever could. They require the same mana investment, joraga's can just be split up.
Here's a better example, why play Birds of Paradise over wild growth? Wildgrowth can be used the turn it comes out, and is less likely to die. Wild growth is always faster than birds unless we are literally talking a turn 1 play, in which case they are the same speed. Birds, mana fixes, but I feel our land and other ramp can take care of that just fine.
I'm not saying y'all are wrong for playing creature based ramp, but I feel unmoved by the arguments so far.
In fairness, if you're bringing up the resilience argument, artifacts/enchantments die too.
They don't die ANY WHERE NEAR as often as creatures do. There are just literally way more cards played in EDH that target creatures or board wipe them. I see a creature board wipe nearly every game I play. An artifact/enchantment boardwipe? Seen those like a few times in my entire EDH career. So creatures are far more likely to die. Plushpenguin says it's worth the risk which is cool, but let's not kid ourselves that creatures are even close to being just as safe as artifacts or enchantment for ramp. Even of the limited enchantment/artifact removal out there, it seems less likely someone would use that on one of my ramping enchantments vs. some other nasty enchantment on the table. Since decks are less likely to have artifact/enchantment removal, people are more hesitant to play them on a card that ramps, vs. a card that can shut down their plan entirely. A creature removal spell however is easier to use on a creature that ramps because they are easier to come by. They may have a boardwipe in hand as a back up creature removal spell, or just feel confident that other players on the table will be able to take care of other problem creature. Due to their scarcity, artifact/enchantment removal becomes harder to justify using against ramp because the player has a much lower chance of drawing into another effect like it, and the other players are less likely to have a similar effect to remove a greater artifact/enchantment threat.
Y'all aren't wrong for your card choices et. I just wanted to explain my reasoning for going a different direction.
Thanks for bringing up Gamble I was going to say I don't play it due to cost, but I realized it's only about $7 now! I might actually pick up a copy. I can see why people don't like it however. It's automatic card disadvantage. It has more card disadvantage than say even Vampiric Tutor. It's guaranteed that you are giving up a card from hand in order to have a chance at a better card. It's pretty bad late game if we've only 0-3 cards in hand. The upside is still huge though. I see your point about tutoring for Sol Ring et. as there is no other card I can think of in our colors that can tutor for any card type. Having at least 1 tutor that can grab non-creature stuff seems pretty nice.
With all of the tutors/card manipulation it makes sense that y'all can afford to run fewer creatures and more damage amplification. In my less consistent deck's testing, the worst thing that can happen is not drawing a big creature. Or drawing into only 1 and having it removed somewhat soon after putting it out without drawing into a new one. It seems like I needed to just add in more fatties so I could naturally draw into them (also helps with my budget card draw choices that relies on creatures.) Now my deck doesn't ever seem to have a problem drawing enough creatures. After all, extra combats don't help without a nice big creature on the board!
In fairness, if you're bringing up the resilience argument, artifacts/enchantments die too. If you want to err on the safe side, you pretty much have to keep it lands only, as popping those is quite taboo. However, if you do that, you lose a lot of the explosiveness that makes you viable. The longer you take to get going, the more the board gets gummed and the less effective you become. I know it from experience quite a lot - back in 2014/2015, I kept dying quite often to a Xenagod while I was playing my Patron of the Orochi build. I'd often be disposed of around turn 4/5, and then the guy would have severe trouble getting through the random debris that popped up around the rest of the table. Playing it super safe with ramp essentially surrenders that window of opportunity for you. You just don't get that luxury. If you're concerned with getting your mana popped, latch onto the guy most likely to wipe, I guess?
Interesting that you encountered one that tried to consistently go for assured kills on turn 4 and 5. Looked like an infect build, which naturally has the problem of getting through board states.
I basically am at the point where my deck essentially doesn't care about blockers unless they have deathtouch. It might not kill as quickly but it sure can much more effectively ignore the creatures of whoever I am attacking.
Also, I have played Wild Growth at one time and it was decent. The ONLY reason I run birds over it is to have a GSZ target for 1.
Lastly, my meta is actually full of enchantment and artifact wipes. Merciless Eviction, Austere Command, Vandalblast, and Bane of Progresss are all common. They aren't seen every game, but we have them. All is Dust is also common (people find it effective against this deck) for decks in one or all of grixis colors as well as monogreen. Everyone also has a slight preference for exile effects, driven by how good exile effects are (especially against me).
I even contribute to this by having a deck filled with Planar Cleansing effects. I also run Bane of Progress, Pernicious Deed, and All is Dust when applicable. Basically, artifacts and enchantments can be very scary and dangerous, much more so than creatures sometimes and so we have tools to remove them.
I'm not quite sure what it was, but back then my Patron was less effective than it is now and I'd quite often go like 5-6 turns with a bare-ass board. This gave the Xenagod ample time to punch into me. Maybe all the times he drew Malignus or something really stuck with me for some reason or whatever.
I forgot it kills fetch lands. Guess it's not really worth considering for this deck after all.
Also, fetches do help a lot with library manipulation and getting to what we want. We just don't use our GY that much.
I haven't had issues getting Emrakul in when I need to after so many games, so I think the spot is earned.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Here's the link:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/variant-commander/786506-new-awesome-multiplayer-variant-alliance
I won't speak of it any more here. I just respect all the posters on this thread and figure it could be a good way to get feedback while spreading this awesome idea.
+ Etali, Primal Storm
- Managorger Hydra
Etali is a somewhat high variance card that is viable for 4+ player games. However, he is a lot of fun, has all of the synergy he could ever want in the deck, and managorger never won any games.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Paying mana to loot each turn is a huge cost to your tempo, however.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I still need selvala too, so I won't spend my $ on Azor's gateway since selvala looks like the superior card to spend my money on.
I had a nice win the other day. My Savage ventmaw was put offline from maze of ith during combat phase. I cast relentless assault after that for the win. Surprised my friend who hadn't seen my upgraded xenagos deck do that.
I literally cannot remember the last time I lost when I tapped it for 14 mana. The card draw ability basically may give you one or two extra cards (or someone else a card) but it's not a significant feature of the card.
Other than that, Elemental Bond > Triumph of Ferocity. I can't run the former because my creature density is low.
Lastly, yeah extra combats are good. They are definitely good for breaking through maze, although be careful if you think they have spot removal as backup.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
First of all, I stuck in wheel of fate which looks like an obvious replacement for Wheel of fortune. I also already had Reforge the soul in as well. Having some card draw that's not dependent upon creatures seems good, and that's what more expensive $ enchantment based card filtering options provide.
What I'm really interested in hearing thoughts on is Mask of memory. This seems like a perfect compromise between triumph of ferocity and elemental bond. It's still really cheap to use, and with the bonus of digging 2 cards deep. We should be able to find discard fodder pretty easily as lands/ramp spells become unimportant mid/late game. I like that it is a repeatable effect with only one creature on the board.
I put elemental bond in the deck, but I may just take it out to add another giant creature. I think Wheel of fate and mask of memory may provide just enough of a boost until I get that selvala. I'm also already running soul of the harvest which has been a great help so far.
Does anyone else have budget options or pet cards not featured in Plushpenguin's list they run?
Etali, primal storm looks good. I'll put it in when I find a copy. I'm still liking Ghalta, primal hunger too. I'll let you know if I get more stories about its credibility. The couple of times it showed up so far it's been great.
You guys are a tremendous help. All of this feedback has really helped me up my edh deck building skills in general. I had some idea about narrowing down the purpose of a deck before. This thread has really helped me learn the finer intricacies of cmc, card evaluation, and considering potential board states when evaluating a card.
I do not run it because my library manipulation suite helps my setup too, while this card is only active once you start attacking, but don't get me wrong, mask is a great card and I think for a budget choice it is excellent. One game I ended up stealing one with Hellkite Tyrant and getting two hits with the mask allowed me to win the game.
Lastly, yeah, the way I like to evaluate cards is to understand what I'm facing and then try to envision an average case, a best case scenario, and a worst case scenario. I'm completely okay with playing risky cards as long as the payoff can be really good.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I had a turn 6 (could have been turn 5 if I didn't have to use harmonize on a turn) Savage ventmaw with xenagos out. Attack in with ventmaw, play relentless assault and ghalta. Have a second attack phase for a total of 50 damage on turn 6. (I think it might have been possible to pull it off turn 5 too.) I also had 6 mana up to use other cards in my hand after that.
The secret tech here is playing ghalta for cheap while having an extra combat trick ready. Another example: If Hellkite Charger is already on the field when you start your turn with 9 mana available. Get in with hellkite for 10, add an extra combat phase, play ghalta for GG then pump it and get in for another 34 for a total of 44 damage between 2 cards and xenagos.
If you can afford an extra combat, the math works out so that if you have a 5 or 6 power creature on the board, plus an extra combat step, it's actually still equally or more profitable damage wise to play out ghalta and target it, instead of the first creature again with xenagos. As an added bonus, your damage output is split between two creatures on your second combat step instead of being funneled into one easier to remove creature. The ability to split up the damage between opponents is potentially quite useful.
There is the draw back of xenagos potentially becoming a creature. On the other hand, killing off one or two opponents in one go could be worth the risk. After all, if someone removes xenagos, they didn't remove your other giant creatures instead. You still have two giant creatures waiting when you play xenagos again for a mere 7. You also get in for 6 more damage if xenagos does become a creature and isn't removed.
Anyway, here's further considerations on Ghalta, Primal Hunger as promised.
Also, is Silvos, Rogue Elemental potentially a better Plated Crusher? He can survive board wipes and has more power. Saving the extra mana might be a drain, but you can still regenerate him once for the same cost as playing a plated crusher. It seemed worth mentioning due to the higher power and ability to survive board wipes. I find board wipes to be more common than targeted removal. Holding up 1 or 2 green doesn't seem to be asking much late game either. I figure we at least get a 2 for 1 plus 16 trample damage for 7 mana if people are that zealous about removing it.
Anyway, I find that a lot of targeted removal tends to be the older kind of removal where all sorts of "cannot be regenerated" text was printed. I'm talking Snuff Out, Pongify variants, and of course, the exile removal Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. Even Reality Shift exiles, meaning that regeneration is not a particularly valuable defense against such removal.
Meanwhile, most boardwipes do not have such text. However, we innately fight through boardwipes extremely well unless our board is full of mana dorks.
As for me, I don't think I can reasonably play Emrakul and Ghalta in the same deck without losing consistency. I'd have to pick one, although the case you bring up is enticing. Makes me wish they printed a 3 mana Seize the Day variant without flashback.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I updated my list quite a bit. I decided not to go with joraga treespeaker, birds of paradise and somberwald stage as ramp. Land, enchanment and artifact based ramp looks better to me as it means less devotion and it's harder to remove in general. My mana curve is higher than the plushpenguin's list. As such I've tried to focus on spells that will ramp us up by 2 mana. The cheaper ramp spells focus on color fixing.
Here are pet cards I put in the deck. Some are for budget reasons, some are because I like them enough to make room for them:
Thought vessel This seems like an overlooked card for us. I like it better than the one cost sac a land to search for a land card (blanking on name.) This card ramps us, and gives us no maximum handsize. Instead of using two cards to choose between ramping further or no max. handsize, we can get both on one card.
Swiftfoot boots This card seemed redundant at first. However, my list lacks some of the other hexproof/creature protection spells. I like this better than Vines of vastwood for instance. A reusable hexproof for only 1 mana investment to equip looks better long term than this. Also, I don't want to feel held back from turning xenagos into a creature if I want to. When I thought about it, the haste aspect can still serve us too if we are going to play 2 creatures in a turn for a major blowout to finish the game.
Fierce empath/woodland bellower combo. (I'm missing some of the more $ tutors, so this helps make up for it.) I still think this combo is worth playing alongside the other more expensive tutors. Note that bellower getting out fierce empath makes bellower a kind of cantrip tutor on a 6/5 body for 6 mana. You don't care that bellower doesn't have evasion, because you can get your best evasive fatty into hand with it. I also like that bellower can get my Shaman of forgotten ways. This card can just override the board state and just outright kill some people if they have no creatures out. Note we could kill the entire table with a one cost blasphemous act, shaman of forgotten ways, pump with xenagos for haste, then make everyone else's life total 0 for a total of 15 mana. Bellower also gets out Combat celebrant, nothing to sneeze at.
Ghalta, Primal hunger I've talked about a couple of times before, look back a few posts on this page and one page back.
Tyrant's familiar This guy can just help us stay alive while attacking in. Killing off the biggest creature possible while attacking the most fearsome opponent is pretty nice. Just kill off whatever you think will be pointed at you next chance it has. I also search for Atarka world render quite often so extra dragons are good.
stonehoof chieftain expensive to cast, but I like having some creatures with staying power. Also worth the cost when he can provide trample to everyone else. He can be especially good if we get to that point where xenagos becomes a creature. There may be a better card than this for the deck, but he's served me well every time he comes out.
Heroic intervention flexibility due to protecting against wipes and spot removal.
In general, my list has more big creatures (19) fewer extra combat damage and protection spells. I decided to go with more creatures for now as I have even more card draw effects that rely on creatures like Lifecrafter's bestiary and Soul of the harvest. We also want to feel free to sac. creatures to the other effects at the same time.
Here's the new list. The parenthesis stand for the number in that category when counting the creatures that also fall into that category.
1 sakura-tribe elder
1 Elvish visionary
1 Fierce empath
1 yavimaya elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 combat celebrant
1 shaman of forgotten ways
1 Rhonas the indomitable
1 Territorial hellkite
1 rapacious one
1 Thunderfoot Baloth
1 carnage tyrant
1 hellkite tyrant
1 soul of the harvest
1 Savage ventmaw
1 woodland bellower
1 Hellkite charger
1 pathbreaker ibex
1 plated crusher
1 Atarka, World Render
1 Tyrant's Familiar
1 siege behemoth
1 Stonehoof chieftain
1 Ghalta, Primal hunger
1 Emrakul, the promised end
Ramp 13 (16)
1 sol ring
1 Sylvan scrying
1 Mind stone
1 thought vessel
1 farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Nissa's Pilgrimage
1 Worn powerstone
1 overgrowth
1 frontier siege
1 Hedron Archive
1 Green sun's zenith
Card advantage 13 (18)
1 skullclamp
1 sensei's divining top
1 Mask of memory
1 wheel of fate
1 cream of the crop
1 life's legacy
1 hunter's insight
1 lifecrafter's bestiary
1 momentous fall
1 greater good
1 harmonize
1 reforge the soul
1 rishkar's expertise
Extra damage/combat 4 (7)
1 aggravated assault
1 Relentless assault
1 chandra's ignition
1 blood mist
Answers 6
1 swiftfoot boots
1 beast within
1 Chaos warp
1 decimate
1 Blasphemous act
1 heroic intervention
Land 37
9 forest
3 mountain
1 spinerock knoll
1 mosswort bridge
1 copperline gorge
1 arid mesa
1 bloodstained mire
1 windswept heath
1 wooded foothills
1 cinder glade
1 stomping ground
1 sheltered thicket
1 mossfire valley
1 game trail
1 fire-lit thicket
1 karplusan forest
1 command tower
1 rootbound crag
1 grove of the burnwillows
1 kazandu refuge
1 gruul turf
1 Myriad Landscape
1 temple of the false god
1 reliquary tower
1 kessig wolf run
1 strip mine
1 rogue's passage
Crop Rotation is better than Thought Vessel because it can go get Ancient Tomb or, later in the game, Kessig Wolf run or, if you just drew it as part of a big draw action, get Reliquary Tower.
Your primary argument of going for less efficient artifact based ramp is to decrease devotion, yet you want to run Woodland Bellower + Fierce Empath as a tutor package which will immediately increase your devotion by 3. This seems to need some more thought.
I will reply more thoroughly when I can.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Actually my primary reason for land/enchantment/artifact based ramp is because they are harder to remove. I feel people I play with will be smart enough to use removal on somberwald stag or use an early boardwipe for instance, because they know how far it will put me behind. The deck feels like it wants to run as few lands and ramp spells as possible. To accomplish this, we want the ramp we do have to stick around. Another upside for artifact and enchantment ramp is that it can usually be used the turn it comes out, vs. a creature you must wait for. This can be relevant in playing out 2 vs. 1 spell out per turn.
Perhaps I should put crop rotation back in the deck. I don't have Ancient tomb and use Temple of the false god instead which is why I think it looks less appealing to me. You make a good case for the other lands it can search for being important though.
Maybe thought vessel doesn't replace crop rotation, but does it make sense to find a spot for it in the deck? I think so as it's an extra no max. handsize effect, which the deck wants more of in my opinion. There's no better feeling than having a hand full of 20+ cards.
The bellower/fierce empath. Again, I see it as a replacement for better tutor effects. I don't worry about the devotion too much, because fierce empath is just a chump blocker who will die before my next turn most likely. It's not like our deck is known for it's defense, and it is known for putting us on people's sh** list real quick. Once fierce empath dies, we play the creature we tutored for on our next turn alongside baloth without turning on xenagos. Empath can also be used for skullclamp, Mask of memory fodder. I don't have to search for empath either. Tireless Tracker is worth searching for if i'm low on cards.
My deck does lack some of the more efficient card draw spells, so finding little bits of card advantage here and there seems to help it play more consistently.
1) Consistency. I use cheap tutors to supplement this because stuffing a deck with >10 6+ drops is very taxing on a deck. Therefore, as a necessity, in order to lower my curve I play fewer big things. We've all had those hands where we just end up drawing into 3 big creatures but no insane ramp or damage amplification (or even just the lands) to keep up with the rest of the table. This is also why I run so much library manipulation. It is because we want to draw a certain ratio of effects (and preferably not in the wrong order if possible). I like the amount of draw effects that we are running, because we honestly want to hit one if we are to keep up with the rest of the table. To make up for playing fewer big things, I play more damage amp, but the cards that I run are designed to synergize with the extra combats well.
Speaking of tutors, I'm amazed that I feel like I'm the only person who likes Gamble here. Even if you don't own a Mana Crypt, Gambling for Sol Ring is still a pretty strong play and I've usually only lost around 1/6 of my gambles, which if you think about a multiplayer winrate, the number of times you lose a winnable game from a failed gamble would be even less than that. Also, when you draw it late, getting Seize the Day or Rishkar's Expertise can be pretty strong.
2) Speed. The mana dorks can die to boardwipes, but some of them generate so much mana for such a low cost that it feels absolutely worth the risk. Cutting down on high drops also contributes to a faster deck. If you find yourself in a position where your speed is not enough to put you ahead on tempo of the rest of the table, consider adding another boardwipe to buy you time. I like that more than chump blocking. Also, sometimes, random Etali, Primal Storm hits give you enough bodies to gum up the ground for your opponents.
Lastly, the only reason I cut thought vessel is because I had something more powerful or versatile to run in its place.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I guess I'm just not seeing how much faster y'all can possibly be with creatures. Joraga Treespeaker vs. overgrowth for instance. Overgrowth is always better/faster except if you play joraga turn 1, in which case joraga is slightly faster. The ability to use overgrowth the turn it comes out seems much better to me as it can lead to the two spells in a turn much more often than joraga ever could. They require the same mana investment, joraga's can just be split up.
Here's a better example, why play Birds of Paradise over wild growth? Wildgrowth can be used the turn it comes out, and is less likely to die. Wild growth is always faster than birds unless we are literally talking a turn 1 play, in which case they are the same speed. Birds, mana fixes, but I feel our land and other ramp can take care of that just fine.
I'm not saying y'all are wrong for playing creature based ramp, but I feel unmoved by the arguments so far.
They don't die ANY WHERE NEAR as often as creatures do. There are just literally way more cards played in EDH that target creatures or board wipe them. I see a creature board wipe nearly every game I play. An artifact/enchantment boardwipe? Seen those like a few times in my entire EDH career. So creatures are far more likely to die. Plushpenguin says it's worth the risk which is cool, but let's not kid ourselves that creatures are even close to being just as safe as artifacts or enchantment for ramp. Even of the limited enchantment/artifact removal out there, it seems less likely someone would use that on one of my ramping enchantments vs. some other nasty enchantment on the table. Since decks are less likely to have artifact/enchantment removal, people are more hesitant to play them on a card that ramps, vs. a card that can shut down their plan entirely. A creature removal spell however is easier to use on a creature that ramps because they are easier to come by. They may have a boardwipe in hand as a back up creature removal spell, or just feel confident that other players on the table will be able to take care of other problem creature. Due to their scarcity, artifact/enchantment removal becomes harder to justify using against ramp because the player has a much lower chance of drawing into another effect like it, and the other players are less likely to have a similar effect to remove a greater artifact/enchantment threat.
Y'all aren't wrong for your card choices et. I just wanted to explain my reasoning for going a different direction.
Thanks for bringing up Gamble I was going to say I don't play it due to cost, but I realized it's only about $7 now! I might actually pick up a copy. I can see why people don't like it however. It's automatic card disadvantage. It has more card disadvantage than say even Vampiric Tutor. It's guaranteed that you are giving up a card from hand in order to have a chance at a better card. It's pretty bad late game if we've only 0-3 cards in hand. The upside is still huge though. I see your point about tutoring for Sol Ring et. as there is no other card I can think of in our colors that can tutor for any card type. Having at least 1 tutor that can grab non-creature stuff seems pretty nice.
With all of the tutors/card manipulation it makes sense that y'all can afford to run fewer creatures and more damage amplification. In my less consistent deck's testing, the worst thing that can happen is not drawing a big creature. Or drawing into only 1 and having it removed somewhat soon after putting it out without drawing into a new one. It seems like I needed to just add in more fatties so I could naturally draw into them (also helps with my budget card draw choices that relies on creatures.) Now my deck doesn't ever seem to have a problem drawing enough creatures. After all, extra combats don't help without a nice big creature on the board!
Be well y'all!
Interesting that you encountered one that tried to consistently go for assured kills on turn 4 and 5. Looked like an infect build, which naturally has the problem of getting through board states.
I basically am at the point where my deck essentially doesn't care about blockers unless they have deathtouch. It might not kill as quickly but it sure can much more effectively ignore the creatures of whoever I am attacking.
Also, I have played Wild Growth at one time and it was decent. The ONLY reason I run birds over it is to have a GSZ target for 1.
Lastly, my meta is actually full of enchantment and artifact wipes. Merciless Eviction, Austere Command, Vandalblast, and Bane of Progresss are all common. They aren't seen every game, but we have them. All is Dust is also common (people find it effective against this deck) for decks in one or all of grixis colors as well as monogreen. Everyone also has a slight preference for exile effects, driven by how good exile effects are (especially against me).
I even contribute to this by having a deck filled with Planar Cleansing effects. I also run Bane of Progress, Pernicious Deed, and All is Dust when applicable. Basically, artifacts and enchantments can be very scary and dangerous, much more so than creatures sometimes and so we have tools to remove them.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.