General card considerations: Splinter Twin Do people not play this because of the devotion it adds? Seems good for etb creatures and the ability to throw dispensable creatures in to token armies.
Subterranean tremors For 9 mana we can possibly wipe the board mid-game and have a 16 power to throw at all of our defenseless opponents. I think the destroy all artifacts aspect can be a boon for us. We have plenty of land, creature and enchantment based ramp, while non-green opponents aren't likely to have this benefit. Even if we destroy 3 of our own artifacts, the likely hood of us destroying more than 3 artifacts between our opponents is pretty high. We can also just choose to play this spell after we pump one of our other creatures through xenagos to give it the appropriate amount toughness needed to survive. We stand a good chance of having 1-2 creatures after this spell resolves, but most opponents will have 0-1. I don't think this necessarily replaces blasphemous act, but should it be run as well?
Why is bloodmist preferred over berserkers' onslaught? Isn't the extra mana worth giving all creatures doublestrike?
Thanks for the organized deck list and cmc post plushpenguin. I've added strip mine to the list. I kind of knew I needed it, but had to tune the mana/ramp to accommodate so many colorless lands. Thanks for giving me the push.
General card considerations: Splinter Twin Do people not play this because of the devotion it adds? Seems good for etb creatures and the ability to throw dispensable creatures in to token armies.
Subterranean tremors For 9 mana we can possibly wipe the board mid-game and have a 16 power to throw at all of our defenseless opponents. I think the destroy all artifacts aspect can be a boon for us. We have plenty of land, creature and enchantment based ramp, while non-green opponents aren't likely to have this benefit. Even if we destroy 3 of our own artifacts, the likely hood of us destroying more than 3 artifacts between our opponents is pretty high. We can also just choose to play this spell after we pump one of our other creatures through xenagos to give it the appropriate amount toughness needed to survive. We stand a good chance of having 1-2 creatures after this spell resolves, but most opponents will have 0-1. I don't think this necessarily replaces blasphemous act, but should it be run as well?
Why is bloodmist preferred over berserkers' onslaught? Isn't the extra mana worth giving all creatures doublestrike?
1) I don't play twin because I don't expect my stuff to live half of the time. I have too much burst damage as it is for the target to consider letting it survive. I do play Mimic Vat for throwing disposable minions after one ends up dying, with some other utility uses to it.
2) Tremors is actually decent, but I wouldn't bank on hitting 9 mana to get the big lizard when I need it to. Not hitting flyer is a gigantic downside. Blowing up all artifacts too is a decent reason to play this though. If you need another creature only wipe, look to Chain Reaction.
3) The extra mana really makes a difference when it is the same cmc as your general and adds the prospect of additional setup time to make the card work. Plus, if I end up having two or more big creatures out and attacking, it means I'm on the path to winning anyway.
I played this deck once on Friday. There was a creature lockout on board so I held back my threats until it was gone. I was then focused down before I could get another turn for having Xenagos and three other enchantments. Blood Mist, Frontier Siege, and Sylvan Library. Let's just say that their fear was entirely justified as my next turn was a Rapacious One going off with a lot of card draw to fuel the carnage. I would have generated ten green mana with Frontier Siege, enough to play the green draw in my hand so that I can save the red for extra combats. I had lethal on everyone with the help of those three enchantments.
I had a nice win with Xenagos the other day. My friends were even more impressed than usual after an early and effective Chandra's Ignition.
My main reason for posting is all of the potential new and awesome cards being spoiled for our deck right now.
Ghalta, Primal Hunger looks very good for us. Tearing away late game at our last opponent or two with a cheap and huge creature will win games. It seems like a "win more" card, but it can get us back from being behind as well, when we just want to cast 2 spells in a turn. Being able to play this plus a ramp or support spell in the early/mid game due to its lowered mana cost is pretty nice.
Wayward swordtooth extra land per turn is always good. It also shouldn't be too hard to get ascend in edh. A late 5/5 for 3 that let's us ramp in the mean time? I'm definitely curious.
Immortal Sun also looks quite good. It's like a strictly better Staff of nin. Boost creatures, draw cards, ramp, and turn off planeswalkers, which nearly no card does; it's very versatile. Is is better than a 6 drop creature though? Possibly. I see this as better than a 6 drop creature in the early game if we suspect boardwipes and creature removal will be unleashed. It's better than a creature if we are low on cards. We can also pay 1 colorless less for 2, 3, or even 4 spells if we can manage it.
Rekindling Pheonix as a possible replacement for the 6/5 haste dragon? My idea has been to fit in as many boardwipe/spot removal resistant creatures as possible, while still following the high-power theme. This guy survives board wipes and/or takes 2 removal spells to truly get rid of. 8 flying damage the turn after xenagos comes out, plus resiliency is pretty cool. Despite it being less damage than Territorial Hellkite, we can point it directly at someone when we want to.
Last but certainly not least is Etali, Primal Storm. Fits nicely in the 6 drop slot, and CAST FREE SPELLS OFF YOUR OPPONENT'S LIBRARY WHEN IT ATTACKS! Note that it casts ANY AND ALL non-land cards off the top of the opponent's library. It's like cascade on steroids if you have 3+ opponents. This card scales up big time.
Thoughts? I'm excited. I see myself playing 2-3 of these cards. Ghalta, Primal hunger is already in as I got one as a promo.
I had a nice win with Xenagos the other day. My friends were even more impressed than usual after an early and effective Chandra's Ignition.
My main reason for posting is all of the potential new and awesome cards being spoiled for our deck right now.
Ghalta, Primal Hunger looks very good for us. Tearing away late game at our last opponent or two with a cheap and huge creature will win games. It seems like a "win more" card, but it can get us back from being behind as well, when we just want to cast 2 spells in a turn. Being able to play this plus a ramp or support spell in the early/mid game due to its lowered mana cost is pretty nice.
Wayward swordtooth extra land per turn is always good. It also shouldn't be too hard to get ascend in edh. A late 5/5 for 3 that let's us ramp in the mean time? I'm definitely curious.
Immortal Sun also looks quite good. It's like a strictly better Staff of nin. Boost creatures, draw cards, ramp, and turn off planeswalkers, which nearly no card does; it's very versatile. Is is better than a 6 drop creature though? Possibly. I see this as better than a 6 drop creature in the early game if we suspect boardwipes and creature removal will be unleashed. It's better than a creature if we are low on cards. We can also pay 1 colorless less for 2, 3, or even 4 spells if we can manage it.
Rekindling Pheonix as a possible replacement for the 6/5 haste dragon? My idea has been to fit in as many boardwipe/spot removal resistant creatures as possible, while still following the high-power theme. This guy survives board wipes and/or takes 2 removal spells to truly get rid of. 8 flying damage the turn after xenagos comes out, plus resiliency is pretty cool. Despite it being less damage than Territorial Hellkite, we can point it directly at someone when we want to.
Last but certainly not least is Etali, Primal Storm. Fits nicely in the 6 drop slot, and CAST FREE SPELLS OFF YOUR OPPONENT'S LIBRARY WHEN IT ATTACKS! Note that it casts ANY AND ALL non-land cards off the top of the opponent's library. It's like cascade on steroids if you have 3+ opponents. This card scales up big time.
Thoughts? I'm excited. I see myself playing 2-3 of these cards. Ghalta, Primal hunger is already in as I got one as a promo.
Honestly, I only see the red elder dino as a possible addition. The rest is just to slow. The green elder dino is too expensive, as iT Will stil cost more than 8 mana (you want to Xenagos to remain an enchantment) and it has no inherent protection. The Immortal Sun, which Will probably turn out a Edh staple, is a 6 drop with no immediate impact. I mean, it could also have been a hellkite tyrant for example. The Phoenix is just too small, iT won’t kill fast enough. Azusasaurus is a Nice effect for redundancy in other decks, but also too slow for This Deck. IT does not increase your mana nor gives you a card by searching for one.
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I'll be testing Etali, Primal Storm and will have Managorger Hydra get the boot while I am doing so. If my intuition on how good this card will be is correct, I expect that boot to be permanent. The lack of evasion isn't as much of an issue when you can get massive advantage out of just attacking (although the high variance of such of effect should be noted)
Also, with this particular build, you can potentially trigger it multiple times.
The other card I plan on testing is the colorless land that draws a card by paying 5 when we have ascended. It won't happen very often but it's a nice late game mana sink if we really get stuck. If we never end up using it I can pretty easily cut it, and the extra colorless shouldn't hurt if I have literally every single good R/G land that can enter untapped.
Everything that was just said about the other new cards is correct.
I thought Etali, Primal Storm was one of the better cards. It shouldn't be too inconsistent with 3 opponents. Statistically speaking, we should get about 2 non-lands per attack with 3 opponents.
I'm sure y'all are right about the rest of the cards, except for Ghalta, Primal Hunger. This dude is nasty and will cost a lot less than you think. Any creature we play that has greater power than it's casting cost actually acts like a ramp spell for Ghalta. For example, there's a board wipe and we're out of creatures. I play Rhonas the indomitable spending 3 mana. Ghalta now only costs 7. Play a verdurous gearhulk, first, now ghalta costs 4 mana right after that. Note that we can do this before Xenagos trigger.
You say it's just a giant vanilla creature that costs too much Ertai. I say this guy is a one shot kill to any opponent, even with full life, when paired with extra combat phases or chandra's ignition or double strike or Pathbreaker Ibex. In those instances the 12 power becomes 24 becomes an additional 24 or 48 damage. Trust me, Ghalta is not going to cost as much to cast as you'd think. Note that Ghalta costs less for the TOTAL power among creatures we control. So one or two early creatures like Selvala or mana gorger hydra will still make this guy possibly playable as our first giant creature of the game.
Say post boardwipe we only have 8 mana to us. We play any of our 6 cost creatures, pump and attack with xenagos, then play ghalta for only GG. We don't get the haste out of it in that case, but we do have a giant blocker up, and are prepared to do much more damage on our next turn than if we hadn't played it.
The other scenario this card is great when we end up with no max. hand size and like 12+ cards in hand. This guy will just end up costing the GG in that scenario most of the time. He allows us to keep pumping out giant creatures and using our massive amount of cards efficiently.
I know I have a different philosophy around xenagos being a creature than most. My play group just doesn't have enough Path to Exile or Swords to plowshares to really have me worried about xenagos.
I wonder if for y'all the "Xenagos must not be a creature" idea is a bit over done. Xenagos being a creature can save us from counter attacks altogether as most people don't want to attack into a 6/5 indestructible. Turning on Xenagos has also been what was needed for a troublesome opponent's immediate demise before. An extra 6 damage is 15% of someone's life total. That's nothing to ignore, especially for only a 5 mana investment. I suppose my point is that turning on xenagos as a creature, especially late game, might not be the worst idea. I understand that in the early/mid game there's a better chance of someone having a spot removal spell they may want to use on us. If we've seen the opponents let loose with some of their exile spells already, the chances of them having one for Xenagos goes down significantly at that point. On average, I'd say I'm more afraid of everyone on the table deciding to attack into me with no blocking creatures vs. having to pay an extra 2 mana for xenagos. If xenagos get exiled, it's because already had some fatty creatures out to turn him on. So just pay 7 for him and we'll have a target for him immediately when he comes out since they spent their spot removal on Xen instead of our other creature or 2. I mean we are a ramp deck. What else were you planning on using that 7 mana for that was so incredibly important when you already have a giant creature or two out?
The other thing I've noticed with that on the off chance Xenagos does actually get taken care of, people tend to move onto the new biggest threat at the table. It seems like people forget about xenagos until he comes back out again. So, there is still a slight upside sometimes on those very few occasions he gets removed.
I'm not saying y'all are wrong about the "Xenagos shouldn't be a creature" idea most of the time, but is the emphasis on this philosophy a little overblown perhaps? Sometimes playing that extra creature and turning on Xenagos wins us the game, not lose it. Or conversely it keeps us from losing the game earlier by providing a solid blocker. Perhaps it's just my meta that allows me to get away with it.
Thoughts on Ghalta and Xenagos's creature status? I'm still loving this thread! Thanks for all the input.
There are actually times when I do make Xenagos into a creature. I don't actively try to avoid it, but I assess the risks when I do so and see what kind of exile removal has already been popped first.
In any case, my reasoning to not try Ghalta, Primal Hunger is that I can never lead a game with only it. I would always need an additional creature, and at the rate that mine get killed off, that's sometimes a tall order. If you can build up a board presence, then she can do well, but there's a reason why I've been loading up on hexproof effects recently.
Hey plushpenguin, I don't see any reason this thread shouldn't be a primer. You kick ass in providing explanations, and there are multiple people posting here. I learned so much just by reading your first page before I even posted. You, along with others, provide good explanations as to why a card should or shouldn't be considered. The only part from the Primer application page that I think this primer could use work on is the alternative cards section. A quick write up of how your deck is heavily skewed toward a removal heavy meta and some cheaper $/different cards for say ramp, removal and card draw seems to be the only small section missing. It would be easy enough, Rampant growth, Reclamation sage, Rhonas the indomitable, Subterranean Tremors and some other cards I've mentioned since I started posting basically fill out this section for you.
I did a search for a Xenagos primer before I started posting here. It was quite surprising that there wasn't one at all, and that this thread wasn't it. You kick ass with xenagos and this thread. Xenagos deserves a primer and this is the best option by far. I'll message the primer application committee to advocate on your behalf if you tell me who you submitted the application to.
Thanks for the perspective on Ghalta, primal hunger and xenagos creature status. It makes sense from what I've heard from you about your meta. It also helped me make sense of why ghalta looks so good to me. (My meta has a low number of boardwipes, spot removal, and counterspells.) I'm glad you let me know that you aren't hellbent on xenagos not becoming a creature. I have only seen references as to why it shouldn't be a creature up until now. I find once the biggest threat of an opponent is dead, turning xenagos into a creature starts to look much better. Once one person dies, the other opponents have probably already lost some life and we've already established our massive mana base/creature presence. Xenagos can help run over the remaining 2-3 opponents late game much easier than the initial 3-4 opponents who have plenty of removal early game. He also seems nice as a creature if our life total has been dipping down to use as a blocker.
As always, many thanks for the insight and inspiration!
I'm with penguin on this one. You want your creature base to work reliably, independent of anything that came before it. Ghalta is the textbook definition of winmore in this shell. The GG cast dream comes online in main two, when you've landed a Xenagod trigger on something fat. You don't need help, you're doing fine, and Ghalta doesn't warp the game anywhere near what some other plays that thrive off a setup like this, like Chandra's Ignition, do.
The primer process on the boards isn't the most straightforward thing in the world, it reminds me a bit of peer review in academia. You have to read between the lines a little. Major revision letters from the editorial board are often worded in a manner that makes you feel like the work you did is garbage, while in fact all they want you to do is adhere to reviewer feedback. In turn, being a reviewer often manifests in zealous commenting, as suggesting you change/add something shows you read the thing and didn't find it there. There's a nice Rakdos build on the boards that the thread author submitted for primer consideration, and then he backed out of the process upon receiving the feedback. It's possible penguin was similarly daunted by the process at some point, be it prior or post submission. Power through! Xenagod deserves a primer, and this build is perfectly sensible!
Well that's unfortunate. I feel like the moderators are a bit overzealous sometimes. Seems like if there is no better choice and the thread is doing a reasonably good job, it should be a primer. Being so nit-picky about those kinds of things just gums up the works and keeps threads from flourishing as well as they could. Oh well.
I did not mean it in that way at all, actually. Just that being "rejected" when you apply for primerdom feels harsher than the actual needed course of action to subsequently get it. Just do what they tell you to in the feedback and all is well Also, being a primer doesn't necessarily make you the most coveted thread in town. While there are some folks who show up in my Daxos the Returned thread, my Patron of the Orochi is largely a writing-to-myself ghost town.
My reason for not applying for primer status actually is because at this point I believe that it is a needless formality.
Players who want to look into building specific decks will naturally gravitate towards threads with the most activity or look into multiple resources at once.
A primer status is simply a guarantee that there is a sufficient and extensive range of content, a conclusion that one can find pretty easily from barely skimming the first post.
In any case, I got more than the usual amount of testing in yesterday, and so far I can give high marks to Etali, Primal Storm and a current thumbs down to Arch of Orazca due to its mana requirements and it only being helpful when I'm flooded beyond hope, in which case even the extra 1 card may not save me. In a five player game, Etali will get on average 3 cards, and in a four player game you will expect to get 2-3 on average. However, library manipulation can help break this effect as it can allow you to leave expensive or fun stuff on top of your library. Also, your extra combats can give you additional triggers. There's a lot of synergy with the card, but Etali is not a card that players just jam into any deck. I'd say play it only with commanders that can grant haste, such as this one or Maelstrom Wanderer (also good there because you run library manipulation and Brainstorm there anyway!)
I also did get a win off of purposefully turning Xenagos into a creature, but I landed Dense Foliage first so that they couldn't target it as I gave myself extra combat steps to finish people off.
In most of my games, I basically never got more than 1 attack off with most of my creatures. Sometimes I would get two. Good card draw and library manipulation won me a lot of games. If some of my stuff had lived for more than 1 attack, I could wipe players or even tables.
Well that's a good point on the primer status. I'm here despite this not being a primer after all.
Thanks for referencing dense foliage. I was surprised how cheap monetarily this card is.
I'm with penguin on this one. You want your creature base to work reliably, independent of anything that came before it. Ghalta is the textbook definition of winmore in this shell. The GG cast dream comes online in main two, when you've landed a Xenagod trigger on something fat. You don't need help, you're doing fine, and Ghalta doesn't warp the game anywhere near what some other plays that thrive off a setup like this, like Chandra's Ignition, do.
Maybe it's just my meta or the fact that I already own Ghalta, Primal hunger card vs. buying an even better one I don't have like Scourge of the throne. I understand how it looks like a win more on the surface, but I believe the deck can actually use a card like this. Perhaps it's just that my creatures survive more than the creatures of others, but it's fairly easy for me to have a 6 or 7 powered creature on the board mid/late game. That makes this a 12/12 trampler for 6 mana, a much better rate than pretty much any other 6 drop we have.
I feel like Xenagos is actually a deck that effectively utilizes win-more cards compared to other decks. We will be the primary target in almost every game. Many EDH decks can kick back, look innocent while drawing cards and avoiding attention. Xenagos doesn't have that luxury. I've been building and playing this deck as a me vs. the entire table deck because that's usually what it ends up being. In that case, we need to be able to do ridiculous amounts of damage asap. The longer each individual opponent stays alive, the worse off Xenagos is. We need some ridiculous cards that jump us ahead in board state and damage wise. Think of Emrakul the promised end. This card gets an exception on it's mana cost because it can be reduced, plus it has giant power/toughness/evasion. Well Ghalta is a giant power/toughness creature that has a reduction cost that's easier to achieve and usually more effective than emrakul's cost.
We need to win more, because the extra 24+48 trample damage Ghalta can do with an extra combat step is the difference between killing off one opponent, vs. 2 in one turn (compared to a 6 or 7 powered creature.) The ability to shoot ahead in creatures and damage output in unexpected and cheap ways is what makes this deck win. If we are going to be fast, we need to be REALLY F****** FAST because everyone's going to hate us for it. Slow and steady can win the race, but ridiculous speed and power can win it faster.
Anyway, I'll stop with my ghalta rant until I get more playtesting in with it.
@JaishivaJai: You’ve convinced me too give Ghalta a try. While i still expect it to not be amazing, the prospect of going in for 40+ in one go seems appealing to me.
What do you guys think of Charging Tuskodon? It’s damage doubling ability effectively maken it an 8/4 and will stack with double strike. With an additional combat step, This will deal 48 damage in one turn, even more with double strike in the mix. IT lacks protection but has trample so... I think it’s good.
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Terra Stomper 2.0, gimped by blockers but scaling better with stuff like Kessig Wolf Run. Interesting trade-off, its effectiveness would depend on how many of those sorts of effects you'd have running.
It gets better the more flat creature pump you run in the build. I only have basically wolfrun so I get little benefit off of using it. Grafted Wargear might like it though. For every +1/+0 you grant this thing, you get an extra 2 damage out of it.
Without those effects, it's like a Verderous Gearhulk only it gets gimped by blockers. Also, you can't draw as many cards off of its power.
Charging Tuskadon seems good at first, but I look at my other 5 drop cards and like them better. Verdurous gearhulk can become an 8/8 with trample, so it's already comparable to tuskadon. I like gearhulk better because if we already have a big trampler creature out, we can put it's counters on our already big creature and not have to give it haste that turn. Tuskadon only becomes good if we give it haste+pump with xenagos, and we probably have better creatures out or in hand that we'd rather pump instead.
I also like vorapede better than tuskadon because of the vigilance, undying and trample. I'd rather have this 5 drop as it will survive boardwipes will getting bigger. I know most don't like it because it increases devotion, but that's just less of a problem for me than most people.
You could also run Malignus in the 5 drop spot, which has the potential to do even more damage.
Tuskadon is interesting still. If you run a deck with and extra amount of doublestrike and combat spells and don't have these other cards, perhaps it can be used as a budget option. I used to run Loxodon Warhammer, which could be good with this guy.
I already run Malignus, it's so good at what it does. I don't run Verdurous Gearhulk yet, I can review my list to see if I can replace it with something.
The reason I think it could do well is that it's doubling stacks with double strike. I've also been contemplating to adding a little more P/T boosts to help get to 40. The other day I wass thinking on Invigorate. You can play it for free, and with Xenagos that's at least 5 additional damage in one turn, even more with double strike or an additional attack step. Another card I'm considering is Might of Oaks. 14 or more additional damage in a single turn can be enough to reduce the # of turns required to kill by 1. That, and Fling. Though it costs us the creature, if it is the final opponent, it let's you essentially triple strike, or maybe even take out 2 opponents in one turn.
Of course, what to cut is a different matter. Once I find the time to do so I will post my list for critique.
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I'm not sure individual power/toughness boosters is going to be as effective as simply having another creature. Alternatively, Equipment can be used over an over again to give power boosts. I'd look into equipment like Mage Slayer and Loxodon warhammer and Grafted Wargear before using the cards you mentioned. I just don't think using pump spells is going to be the most efficient use of cards in the deck.
The thing is, Xenagod + double strike + 10 power = one shot kill. This deck is seriously strong but I'm looking for a way to put it over 9000. Mage Slayer seems nice, though a 3 equip cost makes playing a creature + equipping it in one turn difficult. I think I would prefer Inquisitor's Flail over Mage Slayer purely because of mana cost. I thought about Grafed Wargear before, maybe even mentioned it in this very thread somewhere, but it was pointed out to me that equipping it to your creature opens up the possibility of your opponents killing your creature with a Naturalize. That's too big a risk for me.
So far all I'm playing in this regard is Berserk, but that's so efficient it's hard not to.
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The thing is, Xenagod + double strike + 10 power = one shot kill. This deck is seriously strong but I'm looking for a way to put it over 9000. Mage Slayer seems nice, though a 3 equip cost makes playing a creature + equipping it in one turn difficult. I think I would prefer Inquisitor's Flail over Mage Slayer purely because of mana cost. I thought about Grafed Wargear before, maybe even mentioned it in this very thread somewhere, but it was pointed out to me that equipping it to your creature opens up the possibility of your opponents killing your creature with a Naturalize. That's too big a risk for me.
So far all I'm playing in this regard is Berserk, but that's so efficient it's hard not to.
Blood Mist gets the nod off of being a 1-time payment compared to the rest which require additional activation costs or equip costs. Strionic Resonator is basically like flail without the downside + a few niche utility uses. Mage Slayer does its damage immediately but its costs make it worse than the other 3.
Combat Celebrant also should be in this category with the lowest cmc and a few upsides and downsides.
Upsides:
A 4 power creature. Can be used to beat face by itself in a pinch or act as a draw conduit.
3 mana
50% extra damage compared to above options and can allow for damage splits in case of overkill.
Hmm I'm not using Combat Celebrant yet, you make a good case for it though. I believe I have a unused Strionic Resonator around somewhere, that's even better indeed because you can set it up in advance, the actual activation only costing 2.
Another thing that happened to me the other day: I was playing this deck and there was a control player who basically made sure that, from turn 2 onwards, he would have the mana to counter Xenagos, effectively denying me my commander. Eventually I forced his hand as he let my 7 mana Green Sun's Zenith resolve that fetched my Carnage Tyrant and he had to mind the other opponents as well but it really, really hurts this deck's pacing. Any thoughts on how we might deal with such a player more efficiently?
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Play hate, if you need to. If he is keeping that kind of mana up, you can run a lot of good cards. My favorite is boil, but I am a die hard anti-blue mage and like watching them removed from the game permanently. In reality, carpet of flowers for the huge early tempo boost (or the mana to keep recasting the commander even through the counters) is probably good enough. After you resolve your commander, turn creatures sideways until said control player is on the ropes and dead.
I suppose it hurts us too much, but Blood sun seemed at least worth mentioning. It might be worth it if your meta is full of Maze of ith and Strip Mine that get used against you a lot. Or if people have Cabal Coffers. Or if a lot of people put rely on/put reliquary tower to good use.
Perhaps it's not so narrow after all? The fact that it's a cantrip that can do something our deck do well, but sometimes needs to do, maybe it can be used?
If you wanted to run Blood Sun in here, you'd probably need to do away with the fetches. It would also hose Kessig Wolf Run et al., plus the hideaway lands. I guess you'd just have to test whether it's worth it really.
Splinter Twin Do people not play this because of the devotion it adds? Seems good for etb creatures and the ability to throw dispensable creatures in to token armies.
Subterranean tremors For 9 mana we can possibly wipe the board mid-game and have a 16 power to throw at all of our defenseless opponents. I think the destroy all artifacts aspect can be a boon for us. We have plenty of land, creature and enchantment based ramp, while non-green opponents aren't likely to have this benefit. Even if we destroy 3 of our own artifacts, the likely hood of us destroying more than 3 artifacts between our opponents is pretty high. We can also just choose to play this spell after we pump one of our other creatures through xenagos to give it the appropriate amount toughness needed to survive. We stand a good chance of having 1-2 creatures after this spell resolves, but most opponents will have 0-1. I don't think this necessarily replaces blasphemous act, but should it be run as well?
Why is bloodmist preferred over berserkers' onslaught? Isn't the extra mana worth giving all creatures doublestrike?
Thanks for the organized deck list and cmc post plushpenguin. I've added strip mine to the list. I kind of knew I needed it, but had to tune the mana/ramp to accommodate so many colorless lands. Thanks for giving me the push.
Changes:
Subtract
Add
1 Rhonas the indomitable
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 vorapede
1 rapacious one
1 Thunderfoot Baloth
1 carnage tyrant
1 Atarka, World Render
1 Tyrant's Familiar
1 Siege Behemoth
1 Stonehoof chieftain
1 Emrakul, the promised end
Ramp 17
1 sol ring
1 birds of paradise
1 wild growth
1 Joraga, Treespeaker
1 Sylvan scrying
1 farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 gruul signet
1 Mind stone
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Nissa's Pilgrimage
1 Commander's sphere
1 Selvala, Heart of the wild
1 shaman of forgotten ways
1 overgrowth
1 Savage ventmaw
1 Green sun's zenith
1 Fierce empath
1 primal command
1 Woodland bellower
Card advantage 14
1 skullclamp
1 sensei's divining top
1 cream of the crop
1 life's legacy
1 yavimaya elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 hunter's insight
1 lifecrafter's bestiary
1 momentous fall
1 greater good
1 harmonize
1 reforge the soul
1 rishkar's expertise
1 soul of the harvest
Extra damage/combat 8
1 combat celebrant
1 aggravated assault
1 Relentless assault
1 chandra's ignition
1 berserkers' onslaught
1 Hellkite charger
1 pathbreaker ibex
Answers 8
1 Subterranean tremors
1 reclamation sage
1 beast within
1 Chaos warp
1 decimate
1 Blasphemous act
1 hellkite tyrant
1 Ulamog, the ceaseless Hunger
14 forest
2 mountain
1 spinerock knoll
1 mosswort bridge
1 copperline gorge
1 arid mesa
1 mossfire valley
1 windswept heath
1 fire-lit thicket
1 stomping ground
1 wooded foothills
1 sheltered thicket
1 game trail
1 karplusan forest
1 command tower
1 rootbound crag
1 cinder glade
1 bloodstained mire
1 gruul turf
1 temple of the false god
1 reliquary tower
1 kessig wolf run
1 strip mine
1 rogue's passage
I have all my cards I ordered so updated Xenagos should get played on Saturday!
1) I don't play twin because I don't expect my stuff to live half of the time. I have too much burst damage as it is for the target to consider letting it survive. I do play Mimic Vat for throwing disposable minions after one ends up dying, with some other utility uses to it.
2) Tremors is actually decent, but I wouldn't bank on hitting 9 mana to get the big lizard when I need it to. Not hitting flyer is a gigantic downside. Blowing up all artifacts too is a decent reason to play this though. If you need another creature only wipe, look to Chain Reaction.
3) The extra mana really makes a difference when it is the same cmc as your general and adds the prospect of additional setup time to make the card work. Plus, if I end up having two or more big creatures out and attacking, it means I'm on the path to winning anyway.
I played this deck once on Friday. There was a creature lockout on board so I held back my threats until it was gone. I was then focused down before I could get another turn for having Xenagos and three other enchantments. Blood Mist, Frontier Siege, and Sylvan Library. Let's just say that their fear was entirely justified as my next turn was a Rapacious One going off with a lot of card draw to fuel the carnage. I would have generated ten green mana with Frontier Siege, enough to play the green draw in my hand so that I can save the red for extra combats. I had lethal on everyone with the help of those three enchantments.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
My main reason for posting is all of the potential new and awesome cards being spoiled for our deck right now.
Ghalta, Primal Hunger looks very good for us. Tearing away late game at our last opponent or two with a cheap and huge creature will win games. It seems like a "win more" card, but it can get us back from being behind as well, when we just want to cast 2 spells in a turn. Being able to play this plus a ramp or support spell in the early/mid game due to its lowered mana cost is pretty nice.
Wayward swordtooth extra land per turn is always good. It also shouldn't be too hard to get ascend in edh. A late 5/5 for 3 that let's us ramp in the mean time? I'm definitely curious.
Immortal Sun also looks quite good. It's like a strictly better Staff of nin. Boost creatures, draw cards, ramp, and turn off planeswalkers, which nearly no card does; it's very versatile. Is is better than a 6 drop creature though? Possibly. I see this as better than a 6 drop creature in the early game if we suspect boardwipes and creature removal will be unleashed. It's better than a creature if we are low on cards. We can also pay 1 colorless less for 2, 3, or even 4 spells if we can manage it.
Rekindling Pheonix as a possible replacement for the 6/5 haste dragon? My idea has been to fit in as many boardwipe/spot removal resistant creatures as possible, while still following the high-power theme. This guy survives board wipes and/or takes 2 removal spells to truly get rid of. 8 flying damage the turn after xenagos comes out, plus resiliency is pretty cool. Despite it being less damage than Territorial Hellkite, we can point it directly at someone when we want to.
Last but certainly not least is Etali, Primal Storm. Fits nicely in the 6 drop slot, and CAST FREE SPELLS OFF YOUR OPPONENT'S LIBRARY WHEN IT ATTACKS! Note that it casts ANY AND ALL non-land cards off the top of the opponent's library. It's like cascade on steroids if you have 3+ opponents. This card scales up big time.
Thoughts? I'm excited. I see myself playing 2-3 of these cards. Ghalta, Primal hunger is already in as I got one as a promo.
Honestly, I only see the red elder dino as a possible addition. The rest is just to slow. The green elder dino is too expensive, as iT Will stil cost more than 8 mana (you want to Xenagos to remain an enchantment) and it has no inherent protection. The Immortal Sun, which Will probably turn out a Edh staple, is a 6 drop with no immediate impact. I mean, it could also have been a hellkite tyrant for example. The Phoenix is just too small, iT won’t kill fast enough. Azusasaurus is a Nice effect for redundancy in other decks, but also too slow for This Deck. IT does not increase your mana nor gives you a card by searching for one.
On iPad so sorry no tags.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Also, with this particular build, you can potentially trigger it multiple times.
The other card I plan on testing is the colorless land that draws a card by paying 5 when we have ascended. It won't happen very often but it's a nice late game mana sink if we really get stuck. If we never end up using it I can pretty easily cut it, and the extra colorless shouldn't hurt if I have literally every single good R/G land that can enter untapped.
Everything that was just said about the other new cards is correct.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I'm sure y'all are right about the rest of the cards, except for Ghalta, Primal Hunger. This dude is nasty and will cost a lot less than you think. Any creature we play that has greater power than it's casting cost actually acts like a ramp spell for Ghalta. For example, there's a board wipe and we're out of creatures. I play Rhonas the indomitable spending 3 mana. Ghalta now only costs 7. Play a verdurous gearhulk, first, now ghalta costs 4 mana right after that. Note that we can do this before Xenagos trigger.
You say it's just a giant vanilla creature that costs too much Ertai. I say this guy is a one shot kill to any opponent, even with full life, when paired with extra combat phases or chandra's ignition or double strike or Pathbreaker Ibex. In those instances the 12 power becomes 24 becomes an additional 24 or 48 damage. Trust me, Ghalta is not going to cost as much to cast as you'd think. Note that Ghalta costs less for the TOTAL power among creatures we control. So one or two early creatures like Selvala or mana gorger hydra will still make this guy possibly playable as our first giant creature of the game.
Say post boardwipe we only have 8 mana to us. We play any of our 6 cost creatures, pump and attack with xenagos, then play ghalta for only GG. We don't get the haste out of it in that case, but we do have a giant blocker up, and are prepared to do much more damage on our next turn than if we hadn't played it.
The other scenario this card is great when we end up with no max. hand size and like 12+ cards in hand. This guy will just end up costing the GG in that scenario most of the time. He allows us to keep pumping out giant creatures and using our massive amount of cards efficiently.
I know I have a different philosophy around xenagos being a creature than most. My play group just doesn't have enough Path to Exile or Swords to plowshares to really have me worried about xenagos.
I wonder if for y'all the "Xenagos must not be a creature" idea is a bit over done. Xenagos being a creature can save us from counter attacks altogether as most people don't want to attack into a 6/5 indestructible. Turning on Xenagos has also been what was needed for a troublesome opponent's immediate demise before. An extra 6 damage is 15% of someone's life total. That's nothing to ignore, especially for only a 5 mana investment. I suppose my point is that turning on xenagos as a creature, especially late game, might not be the worst idea. I understand that in the early/mid game there's a better chance of someone having a spot removal spell they may want to use on us. If we've seen the opponents let loose with some of their exile spells already, the chances of them having one for Xenagos goes down significantly at that point. On average, I'd say I'm more afraid of everyone on the table deciding to attack into me with no blocking creatures vs. having to pay an extra 2 mana for xenagos. If xenagos get exiled, it's because already had some fatty creatures out to turn him on. So just pay 7 for him and we'll have a target for him immediately when he comes out since they spent their spot removal on Xen instead of our other creature or 2. I mean we are a ramp deck. What else were you planning on using that 7 mana for that was so incredibly important when you already have a giant creature or two out?
The other thing I've noticed with that on the off chance Xenagos does actually get taken care of, people tend to move onto the new biggest threat at the table. It seems like people forget about xenagos until he comes back out again. So, there is still a slight upside sometimes on those very few occasions he gets removed.
I'm not saying y'all are wrong about the "Xenagos shouldn't be a creature" idea most of the time, but is the emphasis on this philosophy a little overblown perhaps? Sometimes playing that extra creature and turning on Xenagos wins us the game, not lose it. Or conversely it keeps us from losing the game earlier by providing a solid blocker. Perhaps it's just my meta that allows me to get away with it.
Thoughts on Ghalta and Xenagos's creature status? I'm still loving this thread! Thanks for all the input.
In any case, my reasoning to not try Ghalta, Primal Hunger is that I can never lead a game with only it. I would always need an additional creature, and at the rate that mine get killed off, that's sometimes a tall order. If you can build up a board presence, then she can do well, but there's a reason why I've been loading up on hexproof effects recently.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I did a search for a Xenagos primer before I started posting here. It was quite surprising that there wasn't one at all, and that this thread wasn't it. You kick ass with xenagos and this thread. Xenagos deserves a primer and this is the best option by far. I'll message the primer application committee to advocate on your behalf if you tell me who you submitted the application to.
Thanks for the perspective on Ghalta, primal hunger and xenagos creature status. It makes sense from what I've heard from you about your meta. It also helped me make sense of why ghalta looks so good to me. (My meta has a low number of boardwipes, spot removal, and counterspells.) I'm glad you let me know that you aren't hellbent on xenagos not becoming a creature. I have only seen references as to why it shouldn't be a creature up until now. I find once the biggest threat of an opponent is dead, turning xenagos into a creature starts to look much better. Once one person dies, the other opponents have probably already lost some life and we've already established our massive mana base/creature presence. Xenagos can help run over the remaining 2-3 opponents late game much easier than the initial 3-4 opponents who have plenty of removal early game. He also seems nice as a creature if our life total has been dipping down to use as a blocker.
As always, many thanks for the insight and inspiration!
The primer process on the boards isn't the most straightforward thing in the world, it reminds me a bit of peer review in academia. You have to read between the lines a little. Major revision letters from the editorial board are often worded in a manner that makes you feel like the work you did is garbage, while in fact all they want you to do is adhere to reviewer feedback. In turn, being a reviewer often manifests in zealous commenting, as suggesting you change/add something shows you read the thing and didn't find it there. There's a nice Rakdos build on the boards that the thread author submitted for primer consideration, and then he backed out of the process upon receiving the feedback. It's possible penguin was similarly daunted by the process at some point, be it prior or post submission. Power through! Xenagod deserves a primer, and this build is perfectly sensible!
Players who want to look into building specific decks will naturally gravitate towards threads with the most activity or look into multiple resources at once.
A primer status is simply a guarantee that there is a sufficient and extensive range of content, a conclusion that one can find pretty easily from barely skimming the first post.
In any case, I got more than the usual amount of testing in yesterday, and so far I can give high marks to Etali, Primal Storm and a current thumbs down to Arch of Orazca due to its mana requirements and it only being helpful when I'm flooded beyond hope, in which case even the extra 1 card may not save me. In a five player game, Etali will get on average 3 cards, and in a four player game you will expect to get 2-3 on average. However, library manipulation can help break this effect as it can allow you to leave expensive or fun stuff on top of your library. Also, your extra combats can give you additional triggers. There's a lot of synergy with the card, but Etali is not a card that players just jam into any deck. I'd say play it only with commanders that can grant haste, such as this one or Maelstrom Wanderer (also good there because you run library manipulation and Brainstorm there anyway!)
I also did get a win off of purposefully turning Xenagos into a creature, but I landed Dense Foliage first so that they couldn't target it as I gave myself extra combat steps to finish people off.
In most of my games, I basically never got more than 1 attack off with most of my creatures. Sometimes I would get two. Good card draw and library manipulation won me a lot of games. If some of my stuff had lived for more than 1 attack, I could wipe players or even tables.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Thanks for referencing dense foliage. I was surprised how cheap monetarily this card is.
Maybe it's just my meta or the fact that I already own Ghalta, Primal hunger card vs. buying an even better one I don't have like Scourge of the throne. I understand how it looks like a win more on the surface, but I believe the deck can actually use a card like this. Perhaps it's just that my creatures survive more than the creatures of others, but it's fairly easy for me to have a 6 or 7 powered creature on the board mid/late game. That makes this a 12/12 trampler for 6 mana, a much better rate than pretty much any other 6 drop we have.
I feel like Xenagos is actually a deck that effectively utilizes win-more cards compared to other decks. We will be the primary target in almost every game. Many EDH decks can kick back, look innocent while drawing cards and avoiding attention. Xenagos doesn't have that luxury. I've been building and playing this deck as a me vs. the entire table deck because that's usually what it ends up being. In that case, we need to be able to do ridiculous amounts of damage asap. The longer each individual opponent stays alive, the worse off Xenagos is. We need some ridiculous cards that jump us ahead in board state and damage wise. Think of Emrakul the promised end. This card gets an exception on it's mana cost because it can be reduced, plus it has giant power/toughness/evasion. Well Ghalta is a giant power/toughness creature that has a reduction cost that's easier to achieve and usually more effective than emrakul's cost.
We need to win more, because the extra 24+48 trample damage Ghalta can do with an extra combat step is the difference between killing off one opponent, vs. 2 in one turn (compared to a 6 or 7 powered creature.) The ability to shoot ahead in creatures and damage output in unexpected and cheap ways is what makes this deck win. If we are going to be fast, we need to be REALLY F****** FAST because everyone's going to hate us for it. Slow and steady can win the race, but ridiculous speed and power can win it faster.
Anyway, I'll stop with my ghalta rant until I get more playtesting in with it.
What do you guys think of Charging Tuskodon? It’s damage doubling ability effectively maken it an 8/4 and will stack with double strike. With an additional combat step, This will deal 48 damage in one turn, even more with double strike in the mix. IT lacks protection but has trample so... I think it’s good.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Without those effects, it's like a Verderous Gearhulk only it gets gimped by blockers. Also, you can't draw as many cards off of its power.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I also like vorapede better than tuskadon because of the vigilance, undying and trample. I'd rather have this 5 drop as it will survive boardwipes will getting bigger. I know most don't like it because it increases devotion, but that's just less of a problem for me than most people.
You could also run Malignus in the 5 drop spot, which has the potential to do even more damage.
Tuskadon is interesting still. If you run a deck with and extra amount of doublestrike and combat spells and don't have these other cards, perhaps it can be used as a budget option. I used to run Loxodon Warhammer, which could be good with this guy.
The reason I think it could do well is that it's doubling stacks with double strike. I've also been contemplating to adding a little more P/T boosts to help get to 40. The other day I wass thinking on Invigorate. You can play it for free, and with Xenagos that's at least 5 additional damage in one turn, even more with double strike or an additional attack step. Another card I'm considering is Might of Oaks. 14 or more additional damage in a single turn can be enough to reduce the # of turns required to kill by 1. That, and Fling. Though it costs us the creature, if it is the final opponent, it let's you essentially triple strike, or maybe even take out 2 opponents in one turn.
Of course, what to cut is a different matter. Once I find the time to do so I will post my list for critique.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
So far all I'm playing in this regard is Berserk, but that's so efficient it's hard not to.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I think as far as permanent doubling effects go, my ranking would be Blood Mist > Strionic Resonator > Inquisitor's Flail > Mage Slayer
Blood Mist gets the nod off of being a 1-time payment compared to the rest which require additional activation costs or equip costs. Strionic Resonator is basically like flail without the downside + a few niche utility uses. Mage Slayer does its damage immediately but its costs make it worse than the other 3.
Combat Celebrant also should be in this category with the lowest cmc and a few upsides and downsides.
Upsides:
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Another thing that happened to me the other day: I was playing this deck and there was a control player who basically made sure that, from turn 2 onwards, he would have the mana to counter Xenagos, effectively denying me my commander. Eventually I forced his hand as he let my 7 mana Green Sun's Zenith resolve that fetched my Carnage Tyrant and he had to mind the other opponents as well but it really, really hurts this deck's pacing. Any thoughts on how we might deal with such a player more efficiently?
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Perhaps it's not so narrow after all? The fact that it's a cantrip that can do something our deck do well, but sometimes needs to do, maybe it can be used?
If you wanted to run Blood Sun in here, you'd probably need to do away with the fetches. It would also hose Kessig Wolf Run et al., plus the hideaway lands. I guess you'd just have to test whether it's worth it really.