Introduction
Recognize this thread? Good, you should! This deck was originally constructed here by your fellow MTGS Community. I first want to thank all of you that contributed to the original thread, I really appreciate all of the great conversation and ideas. Now that the 100 has been assembled, it's time to trim the fat and focus the deck. Many users felt that stax was the route to go with Kothophed, but a specific direction has not been established yet (so if there is another direction you would like to recommend, please do so). No card is "uncuttable" (spare Kothophed and probably Sol Ring ), don't hesitate to recommend cuts or additions. Thank you for your part in building the best Kothophed list we can!
I would like to thank all of those that helped build this deck on the original "Let's Build" thread (there are literally too many of you to name!), and I would especially like to thank osieorb18, whose Xiahou Dun Primer was a great source of information and an inspiration to this thread (plus he helped a ton on the original thread).
Hmm, I don't dislike either of these cards, but they don't really compete for Magus' slot here. It's an every upkeep trigger (usually a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 benefit) and generally provides long-term value. While I LOVE Barter in Blood (old time fav) and I think Languish (probably should be Damnation?) is solid, they really don't provide what Magus can. Thoughts?
Hmm, I don't dislike either of these cards, but they don't really compete for Magus' slot here. It's an every upkeep trigger (usually a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 benefit) and generally provides long-term value. While I LOVE Barter in Blood (old time fav) and I think Languish (probably should be Damnation?) is solid, they really don't provide what Magus can. Thoughts?
Maybe you're right and Barter or Languish don't really fit the deck, but cut Magus anyway and play with 98 cards! Well, I'm a bit overdramatic here, but Magus is a bad card. I played with him since he was realesed, first in Standard and later in casual decks. Until the printing of Archfiend of Depravity I played him as a slot-holder for a real The Abyss (which I sadly don't own) in my Shattergang-Stax.
He works really slow in getting to the relevant creatures and dies to nearly everything. He's a great card on paper, but terrible once you play him yourself. The fact that he generally likes to kill himself is just the cherry on top.
I agree a bunch with aspsnake. I think that Kothophed wants to go a more reanimator route than a stax route. I agree with his "light stax" and "hard stax" comments mostly. I think Smallpox could still be in. Curse of the Cabal seems good with Koths draw ability at first, but with 4 players in a game and assuming that everyone will sac something to keep it suspended, the person across from you and us will sac something each round. Unless we have a grave pact effect out this seems bad. Overall though our curve is way too high to support a fast stax attack and would hinder us in the long run. We already have a large reanimation package and potentially looping Kokusho as a wincon so I think we should build on that. Buried Alive and Entomb go a long ways in enabling the reanimator effects in our deck.
Perhaps cut Pox and Smokestack for them. Generally you would want some good token production to support Smokestack, which this deck has very little of. I think we would have trouble sustaining it. Pox we could maybe survive as far as cards and creatures go, but that is a huge life hit that is in a deck that already heavily uses life as a resource. And I think the land sacrifice is an issue as we only really have Crucible of Worlds to get any back from the graveyard and this deck has a fairly high curve as well.
So, we probably need to decide finally, which direction are we going.
Stax is good, but it's always hard to determine, how many cards do you need to keep it going and not hurt yourself too much.
The light stax package is very good here imho and should stay no matter what:
My main concerns about stax strategies are two points:
1) if you aren't fast enough to build a stax machine and opponents play cards faster than you, you can end up hurting yourself more then them. Token decks don't care about stax after T3-T4 at all.
2) you sometimes provide your opponents a free sac engine for their Academy Rectors, Solemn Simulacrums, Mindslicers, False Prophets etc.
I also strongly believe that overcosted cards like Decree of Pain don't work with Stax strategy at all. Stax means you should play all the moxes you can (Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, whatever), play a T2 Smokestack and make sure you have something like a Bitterblossom to support the madness. If you feel more like play T6 commander pass turn sort of play, I think stax doesn't work anymore and should be (at least partly) removed.
Cheers
Nice breakdown, I like the Stax Lite vs Stax comparison too, thanks! So, do we think that MBC that uses some Stax Lite effects is our best bet? Or is true Stax where we want to be?
I like the big mana combined with reanimator approach. Maybe I'm biased since that's basically what my Chainer, Dementia Master deck was. I like Gauntlet and Nirkana as well, and it also adds to the need to streamline our utility lands to make sure we get a critical mass of swamps. I still like Entomb, Buried Alive, and Dismember (most of the targeted removal currently has a nonblack clause which is ever so annoying at times).
I have a feeling that commander is potentially very strong, sort of Azami, Lady of Scrolls in card draw, and will draw a lot of hate. I would go for card advantage / heal back strategy and cut the "hard stax" pile for some good cards.
If we don't go the stax route, I'd first add some more big mana cards also:
to support your powerful card draw with enough mana to cast everything you draw.
Nirkana is a 2nd Crypt Ghast and I think we had her in the list at one point, but she was removed for other stax cards to get a list started. Is she worth another 6 drop spot? Not sure, as there are SO many good black six drops and Grave Titan isn't even in here.
I'm not a fan of Gauntlet of Power in any deck that wants Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth on the battlefield. I would really prefer to stay away from that one, but maybe others have a counterpoint there?
I like the big mana combined with reanimator approach. Maybe I'm biased since that's basically what my Chainer, Dementia Master deck was. I like Gauntlet and Nirkana as well, and it also adds to the need to streamline our utility lands to make sure we get a critical mass of swamps. I still like Entomb, Buried Alive, and Dismember (most of the targeted removal currently has a nonblack clause which is ever so annoying at times).
I think if we went the reanimator direction, Buried Alive and Entomb would 100% make the cut. That said, Kothophed certainly doesn't lean toward reanimator like Chainer does (I do love Chainer, don't get me wrong!), it really seems to want to force some sort of Stax or "Stax Lite" as the case may be. I just don't know what direction we're going. Honestly I don't know how exactly to decide that, since so many people helped build this deck, one person deciding the direction feels... wrong? Maybe I put up a poll? IDK...
As for Dismember, I think that Silence the Believers is probably better in a deck that already has life-loss issues, probably...? lol, but that's pre-testing, so a confident answer it is not. Regardless, what would you recommend cutting for the removal?
Dark Ritual lets us power our commander out early.
Is Dark Rit really powerful enough in a multiplayer format like EDH? I know it has a high power level in 1v1, or in very early turns (generally 1 or 2), but doesn't it get outclassed by say Gilded Lotus really quick here? Or am I totally off base here razz?
EDIT:
Razz, how would you build Kothophed? In my eye, he's made for a stax-like build or just a removal heavy build, but what do you see building around him? Appreciate your time man!
I'd build the deck to out-resource opponents. This means both in card- and mana-advantage. Our commander is a terribly powerful resource for the first, as long as we've got enough of the second to reliably table him. Therefore I'd start by figuring out the best ways to get Kothophed in play by, say, turn four. Obviously the vintage rocks (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault) are good starts, alongside maybe ten 2-rocks (Charcoal Diamond, Mind Stone, Felwar Stone, etc). Not only do these ramp, they also increase my permanents in play, which will help to things like Smokestack. I'd test to see if rituals (Dark Ritual et al) would help.
After that, I'd focus on maximizing his ability. Cards that cause opponents to lose permanents are, of course, all very good. I suspect the best one is Pox, which I suggested in the original thread. Smokestack and other "stax" cards are real good, but I wouldn't really call this deck a stax deck. Stax decks play cards that slow down the game, as well as other cards that do very well when a game is slowed down. This deck just happens to play some of the more powerful disruption spells that are commonly played in stax strats, but doesn't prioritize a slowed-down game the same way. Anyway, lots of efficient spot removal is good too, since it all cantrips - Murderous Cut, Snuff Out, even stuff like Go for the Throat seems good. Sweepers too - Damnation, Languish, Toxic Deluge.
Specifically to Dark Rit - I generally dislike ritual effects since they're card disadvantage, except in wheel-heavy lists or storm builds. However, Kothophed provides such huge card advantage, I wouldn't really worry about it in this deck, as long as you can reliably land and protect 'Phed himself.
I'd build the deck to out-resource opponents. This means both in card- and mana-advantage. Our commander is a terribly powerful resource for the first, as long as we've got enough of the second to reliably table him. Therefore I'd start by figuring out the best ways to get Kothophed in play by, say, turn four. Obviously the vintage rocks (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault) are good starts, alongside maybe ten 2-rocks (Charcoal Diamond, Mind Stone, Felwar Stone, etc). Not only do these ramp, they also increase my permanents in play, which will help to things like Smokestack. I'd test to see if rituals (Dark Ritual et al) would help.
After that, I'd focus on maximizing his ability. Cards that cause opponents to lose permanents are, of course, all very good. I suspect the best one is Pox, which I suggested in the original thread. Smokestack and other "stax" cards are real good, but I wouldn't really call this deck a stax deck. Stax decks play cards that slow down the game, as well as other cards that do very well when a game is slowed down. This deck just happens to play some of the more powerful disruption spells that are commonly played in stax strats, but doesn't prioritize a slowed-down game the same way. Anyway, lots of efficient spot removal is good too, since it all cantrips - Murderous Cut, Snuff Out, even stuff like Go for the Throat seems good. Sweepers too - Damnation, Languish, Toxic Deluge.
Specifically to Dark Rit - I generally dislike ritual effects since they're card disadvantage, except in wheel-heavy lists or storm builds. However, Kothophed provides such huge card advantage, I wouldn't really worry about it in this deck, as long as you can reliably land and protect 'Phed himself.
I'm drooling reading this...
What you described sounds a LOT like something I would love to pilot, and I see what you mean between this and stax, it's not really the same. I guess the decklist would need to see a major shift, but there's still a good foundation for that type of deck here. Now I've got the building bug, I can't wait to form a v1.0 of this. Thank you for your help!
Yeah, this deck sounds hella fun to play. I suspect the final build will be a little creature-light, maybe with stuff like Reassembling Skeleton for Skullclamp reasons. There are a couple of effects you'll want to make sure to include, especially lifegain. How competitive are we trying to make this deck, and what does your meta look like? Any ideas for win-cons?
Yeah, this deck sounds hella fun to play. I suspect the final build will be a little creature-light, maybe with stuff like Reassembling Skeleton for Skullclamp reasons. There are a couple of effects you'll want to make sure to include, especially lifegain. How competitive are we trying to make this deck, and what does your meta look like? Any ideas for win-cons?
I'd like this deck to be able to win at casual tables, but have a fair shot at competitive ones too. I play in a meta where you might hit either or both in every game (we have the kids that just started all the way to the guys who have thousands into each of their builds). The win con is pretty wide-open right now, but we aren't short of options (Kokusho is popular here). We have a lot of excellent mono black primers, but I don't think any winconcs directly fit yet. Thoughts?
Completely meta-dependant. If you're up against decks like Momir Vig, Derevi, Teeg, Krenko, or any other creature-based deck, probably good. If you're up against storm, artifacts, etc., probably not good.
Completely meta-dependant. If you're up against decks like Momir Vig, Derevi, Teeg, Krenko, or any other creature-based deck, probably good. If you're up against storm, artifacts, etc., probably not good.
Yeah, it's always kind of a mix. I don't think they'd ever be dead though, and we do have plenty of Voltron (which they're obviously useful against). I would like to start fleshing out this deck idea, probably starting with the artifact ramp base. Do we need to adjust our land base to compensate for the large number of incoming artifacts?
Completely meta-dependant. If you're up against decks like Momir Vig, Derevi, Teeg, Krenko, or any other creature-based deck, probably good. If you're up against storm, artifacts, etc., probably not good.
Yeah, it's always kind of a mix. I don't think they'd ever be dead though, and we do have plenty of Voltron (which they're obviously useful against). I would like to start fleshing out this deck idea, probably starting with the artifact ramp base. Do we need to adjust our land base to compensate for the large number of incoming artifacts?
Any others that should be in? Don't really want to play bad ramp either, lol...
Some suggestions for ramping:
Basalt Monolith - works fine for me, stores 3 mana and allows T4 7-drops, which quite often swing position on the field in your favor.
Voltaic Key - pretty often does something, like it very much when playing both monoliths&vault; untaps opponents' Helm of Possession/Vedalken Shackles when they don't want to. Draws a card each turn for {3} with Sensei's Divining Top.
Everflowing Chalice - T2 untapped mana stone, which becomes much bigger late game.
Rings of Brighthearth - I know I already have suggested it, but if you go for previous ones, it allows a lot of nice plays. Fetches, Burnished Hart, drawing cards from mana stones listed later, using life & mana more efficiently with Chainer/Geth, easily goes infinite with either Basalt Monolith or Voltaic Key and 4 mana generator (e.g., Everflowing Chalice).
Gilded Lotus - basically a Charcoal Diamond that you can't play T2 as it returns 3 mana back, and much better next turn.
Thran Dynamo - same as above, but 1 cheaper and produces colorless, I usually play it in non-colored-mana-hungry decks.
Mox Opal - serves me unexpectedly well in decks with 15+ artifacts, and I always play it in decks without green so far. Doesn't always work from T1, but often you play a T1 Top/Voltaic Key followed by mana stone T2 and mox is serves like another free T2-T4 land drop.
Commander's Sphere - produces colored mana and can be sacrificed any time to draw a card, making it resilient to artifact wipes and allowing you to find a card on topdeck and immediately draw it if required.
Mind Stone - save as above, but you need some mana open to make it work and produces colorless.
Even when got Vandalblasted, tempo you acquired before it was played is already enough to be ahead, and some stones can replace themselves with cards.
I got a few games in last night with this build (used Sheoldred as the commander for now, she was REALLY good FYI... might consider it in the future) and I used Mox Diamond, Thran Dynamo + the current suite of acceleration with great results. Sure, they can be dead late, but they at least work well with Smokestack.
I'm going to take some time away from theorycrafting and just play as many games as I can. I did build a recursion engine with Sheoldred and that was a lot of fun to play with, but if like to play stax lite, MBC, etc.
Thanks for all the help guys/gals, I'll update when I have a solid idea of direction and the deck list updated.
2 allstars in my Chainer deck have been Sangromancer and Whip,
simply because of the inevitable selfdestruction which is core to suicide-black.
I see that a lot of life is lost, so in order to regain a bit of this resource we'd have to optimize the usage,
and maybe turn into bloodsuckers (= accountants, lawyers and politicians) to stay in charge of the game.
My input:
Sangromancer
Whip of Erebos
Cuts:
Pox - Potentially strong, but it will be a "Kill me now"-sign for opponents
Animate Dead - With all of the other reanimation effects this one could be left out.
Thoughts?
Hey, thanks for stopping by and giving your input! I like Sangromancer at the right time in the game (though drawing her after a board wipe was somewhat disappointing ), and you are right that Pox is a "kill me now" card. That said, I've been testing out Whip and really haven't been pleased. The lifelink portion is okay, with it mattering now and then, but the exile on recursion is what really kills it for me. I think I'd rather have a one shot like Animate Dead that allows me to put the creature back in the yard after it dies again.
You mentioned Exquisite Blood in the OP, but I don't see it in there. Consider adding it in! And while you're at it, why not add Sanguine Bond, since it goes infinite with Exquisite Blood and synergizes well with your other life gain cards.
Since K-PHED triggers off permanents your opponents own, Grave Betrayal could serve double duty between getting you free conscripts and more card draw.
Also Ob Nixilis, Unshackled would be good to shut down opposing tutors (serves them right for playing a bunch of fetches!) as well as becoming a powerful beater when a bunch of things have died.
Do you have an Abyss? That would be a really good addition. i was very lucky and picked mine up before the spike. Someone said cutting magus of, which I agree, but if you have a real one, it is awesome!
As a fellow mono black player (xhiao combo), I would HIGHLY recommend more mana rocks; charcoal diamond, star compass, coldsteel heart. They really are important.
In my mono black deck I play both, and will probably try out languish to see. In my area the ability to wipe the board on turn 4 (or earlier with accel) can be a very useful play. My meta doesn't have a lot of people playing indestructible, but occasionally. Avacyn, Monument, and plate get play in my area.
I do see your point though, and in mono black depending on the meta, mutilate might beat out damnation.
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I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
I like grave pact effects like, Dictate of Erebos to get max draw triggers. I'm glad to see this general in consideration for decks, I picked one up in a sealed thing so I kinda liked it for EDH.
Have you thought about Black Market? Might be a cool fit, what with all the death effects in here.
In Garruk's Wake may be interesting as well. Although pricey, it keeps your stuff out getting lots of draw for you.
Rise of the Dark Realms is my mass reanimation spell of preference. We have enough mana (especially if you go back on your Liliana of the Dark Realms cut *shakes fist*!) and I'd cut Rings of Brighthearth (doesn't do enough) for Darksteel Plate (When he get's into play, I want to dictate when he dies, he's too expensive to be recasting at 10-12 etc)
I will rise this topic from the ashes to give my feedback:
I have a Kothoped decklist that is completely different from this one. It starts right out of the bet with the philosophy: Stax can be pretty annoying for other people playing with you at the table, and I feel that Kothophed can do better. I don't agree stax is our best route to go since the general itself costs 6 mana, and you only starts to get value from your stax after casting him (little tricks like reassembling skeleton and bloodghast often will not be found to break the symmetry). I chose control. Many reasons, but mainly because I wanted to play with a relatively low-profile while also having access to fun cards and tons of tutors.
I will create a thread for my list later and I will let people here see it. It still is a work in progress because I had few opportunities to test it so far. But let me tell you the problems I see with the list presented here:
- Not enough mana ramp. You are in black, you can run tons of mana doublers and tons of mana rocks. Kothophed will take care of the card draw once you do that.
- Not enough tutors. Once again folks, we are in black! Slam the tutors in the deck! Best color for a reason.
- Not enough cards to interact with our general. I know we are playing stax with the idea of drawing cards from making our opponents lose creatures... but think again, is that really necessary? Black has kill spells, mass removals, and cards naturally die in a multiplayer game, you just need to have Kothoped out there.
Now, my list doesn't have many ways to protect Kotho, but it has so much mana generation that I just hope recasting him is not a problem. Some cool cards that I'm using in my list (cool in my opinion) that I didn't see in this list:
- Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath (life gain, demons, what else do you need?)
- Polluted Bonds (this card is awesome, it nets you great amounts of life while also hurting the opponents)
- Venser's Journal (did I mention life gain?)
- Words of Waste (Draw 6 after mass removal? Nah. Better wipe the hands of everyone. Did I mention it says 'each opponent'?)
- Dark Petition + Toxic Deluge (good way to tutor a wrath. Dangerous with Kotho on the field, but you can use it in a way to keep him and kill every other creature asusming they are smaller)
- Languish (I would like my Kothoped to live my wrath effects so I can keep drawing)
- Black Sun's Zenith (seriously, I want Kothoped to live)
- Necromantic Selection (no, seriously, I want Kothoped to liv... wait, is that a Consecrated Sphinx that I just killed? I think I will have that one back, thank you very much)
- Magus of the Coffers, Nirkana Revenant, Gauntlet of Power (because there isn't such a thing as 'too much mana')
- Army of the Damned, Empty the Pits (every deck needs win conditions, and zombies are cool, and they get the pump froum gauntlet and caged sun)
- Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Exsanguinate (sticking to the classics)
- Trading Post (lifegain and retrieves combo pieces? I'm in!)
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Mutilate may be a good board clear if you have 4+ swamps in place, it's like Languish but better IMO, with Urborg out you'll probably have the swamp count to make it viable.
Introduction
Recognize this thread? Good, you should! This deck was originally constructed here by your fellow MTGS Community. I first want to thank all of you that contributed to the original thread, I really appreciate all of the great conversation and ideas. Now that the 100 has been assembled, it's time to trim the fat and focus the deck. Many users felt that stax was the route to go with Kothophed, but a specific direction has not been established yet (so if there is another direction you would like to recommend, please do so). No card is "uncuttable" (spare Kothophed and probably Sol Ring
Deck List
6 Kothophed, Soul Hoarder
Creature (27)
1 Viscera Seer
2 Blood Artist
2 Reassembling Skeleton
2 Bloodghast
2 Withered Wretch
3 Burnished Hart
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Merciless Executioner
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Magus of the Abyss
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Falkenrath Noble
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
5 Puppeteer Clique
5 Archfiend of Depravity
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
6 Duplicant
6 Harvester of Souls
6 Geth, Lord of the Vault
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
6 Massacre Wurm
7 Butcher of Malakir
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
7 Sheoldred, Whispering One
0 Slaughter Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Snuff Out
Sorcery (12)
1 Reanimate
1 Innocent Blood
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Exsanguinate
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Smallpox
3 Pox
3 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Mutilate
5 Living Death
7 All is Dust
8 Decree of Pain
10 Curse of the Cabal
Enchantment (7)
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Bitterblossom
2 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Grave Pact
Artifact (11)
0 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Expedition Map
2 Grim Monolith
3 Phyrexian Altar
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Smokestack
6 Caged Sun
7 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Temple of the False God
1 Deserted Temple
1 Strip Mine
1 Petrified Field
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vesuva
23 Swamp
Change Log
No changes yet!
Acknowledgements
I would like to thank all of those that helped build this deck on the original "Let's Build" thread (there are literally too many of you to name!), and I would especially like to thank osieorb18, whose Xiahou Dun Primer was a great source of information and an inspiration to this thread (plus he helped a ton on the original thread).
Great recommendation! What would you suggest cutting for Contamination?
Hmm, I don't dislike either of these cards, but they don't really compete for Magus' slot here. It's an every upkeep trigger (usually a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 benefit) and generally provides long-term value. While I LOVE Barter in Blood (old time fav) and I think Languish (probably should be Damnation?) is solid, they really don't provide what Magus can. Thoughts?
Maybe you're right and Barter or Languish don't really fit the deck, but cut Magus anyway and play with 98 cards! Well, I'm a bit overdramatic here, but Magus is a bad card. I played with him since he was realesed, first in Standard and later in casual decks. Until the printing of Archfiend of Depravity I played him as a slot-holder for a real The Abyss (which I sadly don't own) in my Shattergang-Stax.
He works really slow in getting to the relevant creatures and dies to nearly everything. He's a great card on paper, but terrible once you play him yourself. The fact that he generally likes to kill himself is just the cherry on top.
Perhaps cut Pox and Smokestack for them. Generally you would want some good token production to support Smokestack, which this deck has very little of. I think we would have trouble sustaining it. Pox we could maybe survive as far as cards and creatures go, but that is a huge life hit that is in a deck that already heavily uses life as a resource. And I think the land sacrifice is an issue as we only really have Crucible of Worlds to get any back from the graveyard and this deck has a fairly high curve as well.
Nice breakdown, I like the Stax Lite vs Stax comparison too, thanks! So, do we think that MBC that uses some Stax Lite effects is our best bet? Or is true Stax where we want to be?
Nirkana is a 2nd Crypt Ghast and I think we had her in the list at one point, but she was removed for other stax cards to get a list started. Is she worth another 6 drop spot? Not sure, as there are SO many good black six drops and Grave Titan isn't even in here.
I'm not a fan of Gauntlet of Power in any deck that wants Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth on the battlefield. I would really prefer to stay away from that one, but maybe others have a counterpoint there?
I think if we went the reanimator direction, Buried Alive and Entomb would 100% make the cut. That said, Kothophed certainly doesn't lean toward reanimator like Chainer does (I do love Chainer, don't get me wrong!), it really seems to want to force some sort of Stax or "Stax Lite" as the case may be. I just don't know what direction we're going. Honestly I don't know how exactly to decide that, since so many people helped build this deck, one person deciding the direction feels... wrong? Maybe I put up a poll? IDK...
As for Dismember, I think that Silence the Believers is probably better in a deck that already has life-loss issues, probably...? lol, but that's pre-testing, so a confident answer it is not. Regardless, what would you recommend cutting for the removal?
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Is Dark Rit really powerful enough in a multiplayer format like EDH? I know it has a high power level in 1v1, or in very early turns (generally 1 or 2), but doesn't it get outclassed by say Gilded Lotus really quick here? Or am I totally off base here razz?
EDIT:
Razz, how would you build Kothophed? In my eye, he's made for a stax-like build or just a removal heavy build, but what do you see building around him? Appreciate your time man!
After that, I'd focus on maximizing his ability. Cards that cause opponents to lose permanents are, of course, all very good. I suspect the best one is Pox, which I suggested in the original thread. Smokestack and other "stax" cards are real good, but I wouldn't really call this deck a stax deck. Stax decks play cards that slow down the game, as well as other cards that do very well when a game is slowed down. This deck just happens to play some of the more powerful disruption spells that are commonly played in stax strats, but doesn't prioritize a slowed-down game the same way. Anyway, lots of efficient spot removal is good too, since it all cantrips - Murderous Cut, Snuff Out, even stuff like Go for the Throat seems good. Sweepers too - Damnation, Languish, Toxic Deluge.
Specifically to Dark Rit - I generally dislike ritual effects since they're card disadvantage, except in wheel-heavy lists or storm builds. However, Kothophed provides such huge card advantage, I wouldn't really worry about it in this deck, as long as you can reliably land and protect 'Phed himself.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
I'm drooling reading this...
What you described sounds a LOT like something I would love to pilot, and I see what you mean between this and stax, it's not really the same. I guess the decklist would need to see a major shift, but there's still a good foundation for that type of deck here. Now I've got the building bug, I can't wait to form a v1.0 of this. Thank you for your help!
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
I'd like this deck to be able to win at casual tables, but have a fair shot at competitive ones too. I play in a meta where you might hit either or both in every game (we have the kids that just started all the way to the guys who have thousands into each of their builds). The win con is pretty wide-open right now, but we aren't short of options (Kokusho is popular here). We have a lot of excellent mono black primers, but I don't think any winconcs directly fit yet. Thoughts?
Do you see creatures like Fleshbag Marauder/Merciless Executioner fitting here or are they cut in place of other removal effects?
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Yeah, it's always kind of a mix. I don't think they'd ever be dead though, and we do have plenty of Voltron (which they're obviously useful against). I would like to start fleshing out this deck idea, probably starting with the artifact ramp base. Do we need to adjust our land base to compensate for the large number of incoming artifacts?
The artifacts I could think of were...
Any others that should be in? Don't really want to play bad ramp either, lol...
Haha, yeah I made that discovery myself way back when and realized just how bad it can be.
I got a few games in last night with this build (used Sheoldred as the commander for now, she was REALLY good FYI... might consider it in the future) and I used Mox Diamond, Thran Dynamo + the current suite of acceleration with great results. Sure, they can be dead late, but they at least work well with Smokestack.
I'm going to take some time away from theorycrafting and just play as many games as I can. I did build a recursion engine with Sheoldred and that was a lot of fun to play with, but if like to play stax lite, MBC, etc.
Thanks for all the help guys/gals, I'll update when I have a solid idea of direction and the deck list updated.
Hey, thanks for stopping by and giving your input! I like Sangromancer at the right time in the game (though drawing her after a board wipe was somewhat disappointing
Since K-PHED triggers off permanents your opponents own, Grave Betrayal could serve double duty between getting you free conscripts and more card draw.
Also Ob Nixilis, Unshackled would be good to shut down opposing tutors (serves them right for playing a bunch of fetches!) as well as becoming a powerful beater when a bunch of things have died.
Possible Cuts:
Pox
Withered Wretch
Smallpox
Magus of the Abyss
My EDH Decks:
Purphoros RRR Goblin Burn
As a fellow mono black player (xhiao combo), I would HIGHLY recommend more mana rocks; charcoal diamond, star compass, coldsteel heart. They really are important.
Damnation > Mutilate
I'll keep thinking. Very interesting looking deck
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
I do see your point though, and in mono black depending on the meta, mutilate might beat out damnation.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Have you thought about Black Market? Might be a cool fit, what with all the death effects in here.
In Garruk's Wake may be interesting as well. Although pricey, it keeps your stuff out getting lots of draw for you.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Commander BLOG: The Crazy 99
Gonti ; Sissay
I have a Kothoped decklist that is completely different from this one. It starts right out of the bet with the philosophy: Stax can be pretty annoying for other people playing with you at the table, and I feel that Kothophed can do better. I don't agree stax is our best route to go since the general itself costs 6 mana, and you only starts to get value from your stax after casting him (little tricks like reassembling skeleton and bloodghast often will not be found to break the symmetry). I chose control. Many reasons, but mainly because I wanted to play with a relatively low-profile while also having access to fun cards and tons of tutors.
I will create a thread for my list later and I will let people here see it. It still is a work in progress because I had few opportunities to test it so far. But let me tell you the problems I see with the list presented here:
- Not enough mana ramp. You are in black, you can run tons of mana doublers and tons of mana rocks. Kothophed will take care of the card draw once you do that.
- Not enough tutors. Once again folks, we are in black! Slam the tutors in the deck! Best color for a reason.
- Not enough cards to interact with our general. I know we are playing stax with the idea of drawing cards from making our opponents lose creatures... but think again, is that really necessary? Black has kill spells, mass removals, and cards naturally die in a multiplayer game, you just need to have Kothoped out there.
Now, my list doesn't have many ways to protect Kotho, but it has so much mana generation that I just hope recasting him is not a problem. Some cool cards that I'm using in my list (cool in my opinion) that I didn't see in this list:
- Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath (life gain, demons, what else do you need?)
- Polluted Bonds (this card is awesome, it nets you great amounts of life while also hurting the opponents)
- Venser's Journal (did I mention life gain?)
- Words of Waste (Draw 6 after mass removal? Nah. Better wipe the hands of everyone. Did I mention it says 'each opponent'?)
- Dark Petition + Toxic Deluge (good way to tutor a wrath. Dangerous with Kotho on the field, but you can use it in a way to keep him and kill every other creature asusming they are smaller)
- Languish (I would like my Kothoped to live my wrath effects so I can keep drawing)
- Black Sun's Zenith (seriously, I want Kothoped to live)
- Necromantic Selection (no, seriously, I want Kothoped to liv... wait, is that a Consecrated Sphinx that I just killed? I think I will have that one back, thank you very much)
- Magus of the Coffers, Nirkana Revenant, Gauntlet of Power (because there isn't such a thing as 'too much mana')
- Army of the Damned, Empty the Pits (every deck needs win conditions, and zombies are cool, and they get the pump froum gauntlet and caged sun)
- Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Exsanguinate (sticking to the classics)
- Trading Post (lifegain and retrieves combo pieces? I'm in!)
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar