Special thanks to MrCoupon, whose list and philosophy inspired this deck.
Though I started playing Magic as a kid sometime around when Ice Age was released, I didn't start playing 'seriously' until around the time Invasion was new. My first real deck was a Pestilence deck, and ever since then I've had a strong appreciation for mono black. I'm just now returning to the game, and after literally over a year of research and hem hawing I've more or less settled on the core of the deck, though I am of course open to suggestions.
Yes, yes, it's yet another mono black control list, though there's some subtle synergy going on as well. I've intentionally avoided going the stax and combo routes (except for the Rings of Brighthearth/Deserted Temple/Cabal Coffers combo, but it's not something I really tutor for) because I find them boring to play. As is, the deck is very interactive and has multiple avenues towards victory, which is how I like it.
As I said, suggestions are very welcome. Currently I'm trying to find a way to fix the awkward opening hands mono black can have.
One common theme I have seen in Chainer decks is that they run a good helping of sac outlets. This allows the deck to sacrifice any of the creatures Chainer has recurred in the event someone is trying to kill Chainer, so that you can recur them again. It also allows shenanigans with Kokusho and Gray Merchant to kill a table.
One suggestion would be to replace one of your mana rocks with Jet Medallion. If you find yourself casting a few spells a turn, this can help you squeeze out bigger spells.
One common theme I have seen in Chainer decks is that they run a good helping of sac outlets. This allows the deck to sacrifice any of the creatures Chainer has recurred in the event someone is trying to kill Chainer, so that you can recur them again. It also allows shenanigans with Kokusho and Gray Merchant to kill a table.
One suggestion would be to replace one of your mana rocks with Jet Medallion. If you find yourself casting a few spells a turn, this can help you squeeze out bigger spells.
I have a couple of sac outlets, namely Dimir House Guard who can be reanimated by Chainer in a pinch after tutoring. DHG is one of the all stars of the deck. Infernal Tribute does a surprising amount of work and compliments Gary rather well. There's also Altar of Dementia, which compliments the gameplan and commander.
I had Jet Medallion in briefly but cut it due to a) not playing multiple spells until late in the game where shaving 1-2 mana isn't great and b) it can't be used to activate Chainer. A fine card in XHD lists but less than exciting for Chainer.
Your list looks captivating
I got a couple of questions though:
1. You are running a lot of manarocks, some "less capable" (ie: Enters the battlefield tapped)
than others. Have you had manaproblems in the past?
1a. If so, do you now consider them good draws? At which point would you say that they were dead draws, depending on your meta of course?
2. There are a lot of oneshot-effects (instants and sorceries). Do you usually win without having to recurse any of them?
2a. Does your budget allow the aquirance of Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed? (if so: I really recommend him )
3. What is your reason for leaving out the altar-duo (Ashnod's and Phyrexian)?
4. Does your playgroup moan when they see Gray Merchant or do you manage to keep the table enthusiastic?
5. Do you often hardcast Myojin? Otherwise this would be a nice spot for something lees restrictive ^^
On another note: I really recommend Necrotic Ooze. With this little fella you can let Chainer go to the graveyard and keep recursing
your other miscreants without the exile-clause drawback. (This is due to Ooze not copying the "leaves the battlefield"-trigger).
Best regards from a fellow Chainer-player
Thanks!
I haven't had mana problems per se, but then I've always had the rocks in the list. I added some of the ETBT rocks later on when I found that I really, really wanted to have one in the opening grip. As I'm sure you know, mono black really wants to hit every land drop, and the rocks sort of double as land drops that also accelerate. Plus, they help diversify my mana ramp so that I'm not completely wiped out to MLD or mass artifact removal (unless it's something like Jokulhaups or Obliterate). They do become dead draws in the late midgame onwards, but at that point I'm usually drawing multiple cards or have Chainer out, which lessens the importance of a topdeck. If I'm desperate enough, they get sacced to Infernal Tribute in the late game to push through some emergency card draw. I have considered Coalition Relic and Gilded Lotus, but eh... on the other hand, cutting some rocks does free up slots for more interesting cards.
Unfortunately, at the moment XHD and Karn Liberated are out of budget, and they're both really, really excellent cards for mono black due to their unique effects. Honestly, I'm really a budget player. The only reason I have Damnation and Crucible of Worlds is because I've owned them for forever. As for the instants and sorceries in the list, due to the fact that I don't have any recursion for them I usually win without them. I have considered Yawgmoth's Will. It is the most broken card in Magic, after all.
Honestly, I just never considered the altars. In jmdt's Chainer megathread I saw that a lot of people utilize them alongside XHD + Living Death loops, but that's a different direction than I wanted to go. I'm also running very few creatures, with even fewer that really want to be sacrificed, even with a reanimator general.
I wouldn't know, I haven't actually played the deck in front of people yet, haha. I only have ~half the deck on me at the moment; I'm a returning player who hasn't played in nearly a decade. But since I have multiple ways to win, I'd think it wouldn't get too annoying. I've consdered adding in Lashwrithe to assist with the beatdown plan and also make winning via commander damage a realistic goal.
I do hardcast Myojin, and although it sucks to see it on turn 3 the effect is just too potent to cut. I toyed with Mindslicer for a bit, but I never liked discarding my own hand, even if I can theoretically recover better than other players.
As for Necrotic Ooe, that's a cute interaction. I'll have to try it.
I've read quite a bit of jmdt's Chainer thread and have several other mono black threads bookmarked. From them I built my own shell, and was wanting specific feedback on it. It's also partially for my own reference. And yes, I'm playing Rings of Brighthearth
Lashwrithe: It's great for beating (with Kokusho or Revenant), offers early protection (can happen to get dropped turn 2) and has some fun interactions (Disciple of Bolas par example), BUTin order for it to work you would need to add some additional beaters, as Chainer doesn't work out that well as a fighter.
Myojin hardcast turn 3 seems very optimistic Even my Ghave.dec could "only" get a consistent turn 5 Kozilek out. How do you manage a turn 3 Myojin?
I got a Mindslicer ready to sleeve in if I should stumble upon an aggrivating, competitive playgroup, but if you want to keep your list casual (and fun), I'd suggest to kep him out.
He works fine though if you are facing a lot of counterspells (Damia, Sage of Stone,Arcum Dagsson,Azami, Lady of Scrolls: You name it) and can even get you friends (fellow reanimators, before you mess with their 'yards xD).
As for another card that's simply to good to be left out in Chainer, "Need more Ramp"ia Master: Burnished Hart. This gem once got me 14 swamps in 3 turns. (if I remember correctly: Turns 5 to 7)
I think I'm running enough creatures for Lashwrithe, especially for a recursive commander. It might be better in a stax list that also runs self-reanimating critters like Reassembling Skeleton, but it still turns whatever it's attached to into a serious threat. Maybe thinking of attaching it to Chainer is a bit greedy, but alternate win conditions beyond Gary loops helps the deck by making it less linear.
Haha, I meant that drawing the Myojin on turn 3 sucks. 8cmc cards should all but win games, and putting opponents into top deck mode when I've got a full grip and am drawing 2+ cards a turn is close.
Burnished Hart is a card I had in for awhile, but it was a worse top deck than the mana rocks in the mid to late game. I do like it early on when spreading the ramp over two turns isn't so bad. Maybe it has a place over some of the other cards I'm running, though.
Glaciers is sloooow, but synergy with Deserted Temple and Rings of Brighthearth and ensuring land drops make it a decent inclusion. Not sure cutting a land for it is the right call, though.
As for Nykthos, I had originally excluded it because it seemed winmore; if I had the board state to make it powerful, I probably didn't need the mana. After throwing it in on a whim though it definitely earned it's keep.
Since I'm planning on building Chainer in the future (on a more budgeted approach), I couldn't but notice Phyrexian Altar isn't in. You can abuse it with Kokusho and Gray Servant with Chainer's ability unless you don't like having that kind of power in your playgroup. Make's Chainer's ability cost BB instead of BBB. That and you get the life back for using them both. Since mana won't be a huge issue, you could effectively OTK.
Since I'm planning on building Chainer in the future (on a more budgeted approach), I couldn't but notice Phyrexian Altar isn't in. You can abuse it with Kokusho and Gray Servant with Chainer's ability unless you don't like having that kind of power in your playgroup. Make's Chainer's ability cost BB instead of BBB. That and you get the life back for using them both. Since mana won't be a huge issue, you could effectively OTK.
Between four mana doublers, mana rocks, Liliana's ultimate (it happens every now and then), and Nykthos, when I start Gary loops I have more than enough mana to kill the table in a single turn.
That said it's honestly probably a better inclusion than Altar of Dementia since milling is pretty useless most of the time. I'm just attached to AoD because thematically it matches my general. Phyrexian Altar is also pretty expensive for a minor improvement and moreover I hate the artwork. If you're looking to make the deck more competitive then I think PA is the better card.
I am curious to see other lists, though it sounds like yours both skew towards combo. I tried to diversify my wincons so the deck is less linear and therefore is harder to stop, though a kicked Sadistic Sacrament would still ruin my day.
So it turns out my trade fodder was more valuable than I originally thought and I'm able to afford to put more money into the deck than I originally anticipated. That means:
I also think Nevinyrral's Disk is probably a little overkill with all the other mass removal I'm running, but blowing up the world is really, really fun. I'd like to up the black permanent count a bit to fuel Gary and Nykthos, and I'm probably going to try to squeeze in more sac outlets to test. Any opinions on cuts?
Lmao, my own shout out! Lord, it has been a grip since I updated my decklist. Cool to see it inspired you during your deck building, I love the tuning process of EDH decks.
I am always a bit amused by the notion that Chainer decks are supposed to win by "looping" [insert X creature]. Like, check this out instead: we destroy the board. We wreck our opponents hands. Everything good they had is now ours. We turn our guys sideways at them and win the game. All the will, we can fall ass-backwards into limitless of functionally limitless mana and Exsanguinate the table out. No sacrifice of power for an easier-to-counter finesse approach. What makes Chainer such an amazing commander is that we can run a straight MBC list, with only minor tweaks to his play up his strengths (see: Bone Shredder, etc), and *still* have the best reanimator deck at the table. Better than Sheoldred, better than Karador, better than Mimeoplasm. Without using our card slots on *any* reanimation spells. It diversifies our win cons, ramps up our power, and means that we only have to hope that the UG/x ramp decks don't combo off before we can come online (we are typically over/under 1.5 turns slower than UGx, but if we stick around, we beat them by using their own cards against them).
Since I'm planning on building Chainer in the future (on a more budgeted approach), I couldn't but notice Phyrexian Altar isn't in. You can abuse it with Kokusho and Gray Servant with Chainer's ability unless you don't like having that kind of power in your playgroup. Make's Chainer's ability cost BB instead of BBB. That and you get the life back for using them both. Since mana won't be a huge issue, you could effectively OTK.
Between four mana doublers, mana rocks, Liliana's ultimate (it happens every now and then), and Nykthos, when I start Gary loops I have more than enough mana to kill the table in a single turn.
That said it's honestly probably a better inclusion than Altar of Dementia since milling is pretty useless most of the time. I'm just attached to AoD because thematically it matches my general. Phyrexian Altar is also pretty expensive for a minor improvement and moreover I hate the artwork. If you're looking to make the deck more competitive then I think PA is the better card.
I'd encourage you to keep Altar of Dementia. I personally run it and Phyrexian Altar, as Ashnod's Altar got cut quite a long time ago, since it only produces colorless mana. Altar of Dementia has saved my skin more times than I can count--my Chainer deck often becomes Archenemy when it starts generating absurd amounts of BBB, and I have reliably used Altar of Dementia to mill myself in response to an opponent's attempt to kill me, only to see Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Kokusho, the Evening Star hit the GY with enough leftover mana to reanimate & sac it enough times to survive an alpha strike, if not outright win on the spot. I've always found AoD more useful at milling myself more than milling my opponents.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Lmao, my own shout out! Lord, it has been a grip since I updated my decklist. Cool to see it inspired you during your deck building, I love the tuning process of EDH decks.
I am always a bit amused by the notion that Chainer decks are supposed to win by "looping" [insert X creature]. Like, check this out instead: we destroy the board. We wreck our opponents hands. Everything good they had is now ours. We turn our guys sideways at them and win the game. All the will, we can fall ass-backwards into limitless of functionally limitless mana and Exsanguinate the table out. No sacrifice of power for an easier-to-counter finesse approach. What makes Chainer such an amazing commander is that we can run a straight MBC list, with only minor tweaks to his play up his strengths (see: Bone Shredder, etc), and *still* have the best reanimator deck at the table. Better than Sheoldred, better than Karador, better than Mimeoplasm. Without using our card slots on *any* reanimation spells. It diversifies our win cons, ramps up our power, and means that we only have to hope that the UG/x ramp decks don't combo off before we can come online (we are typically over/under 1.5 turns slower than UGx, but if we stick around, we beat them by using their own cards against them).
Senpai noticed me!
This is the basic philosophy that inspired the list. Build the best MBC list and still out-reanimate the table. I fudged a little, as I included a single card whose only function is that of a sac outlet, but again, I wanted to diversify my wincons even more, and the flavor connection is tasty. While I agree that fully relying on Chainer and sac outlets as a wincon is a mistake, ignoring the potential is also a mistake. You can stack Gary triggers without passing priority like a champ and only be stopped by something like Time Stop, which is pretty powerful. Of course you run Dimir House Guard and can loop Gary or Kokusho as a back up and have far more experience with the deck than me, so. I also think you play in a higher powered meta than I will.
Since I'm planning on building Chainer in the future (on a more budgeted approach), I couldn't but notice Phyrexian Altar isn't in. You can abuse it with Kokusho and Gray Servant with Chainer's ability unless you don't like having that kind of power in your playgroup. Make's Chainer's ability cost BB instead of BBB. That and you get the life back for using them both. Since mana won't be a huge issue, you could effectively OTK.
Between four mana doublers, mana rocks, Liliana's ultimate (it happens every now and then), and Nykthos, when I start Gary loops I have more than enough mana to kill the table in a single turn.
That said it's honestly probably a better inclusion than Altar of Dementia since milling is pretty useless most of the time. I'm just attached to AoD because thematically it matches my general. Phyrexian Altar is also pretty expensive for a minor improvement and moreover I hate the artwork. If you're looking to make the deck more competitive then I think PA is the better card.
I'd encourage you to keep Altar of Dementia. I personally run it and Phyrexian Altar, as Ashnod's Altar got cut quite a long time ago, since it only produces colorless mana. Altar of Dementia has saved my skin more times than I can count--my Chainer deck often becomes Archenemy when it starts generating absurd amounts of BBB, and I have reliably used Altar of Dementia to mill myself in response to an opponent's attempt to kill me, only to see Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Kokusho, the Evening Star hit the GY with enough leftover mana to reanimate & sac it enough times to survive an alpha strike, if not outright win on the spot. I've always found AoD more useful at milling myself more than milling my opponents.
Journeyer's Kite is just so dang slow. By the time it gets online and generates advantage my opponents will have actually threatening cards of their own, and 8 mana for two lands is terribly inefficient; I think I'd rather run Armillary Sphere or Burnished Hart. What makes Liliana of the Dark Realms so good is her versatility. Getting a Swamp and then killing a pesky creature with the possibility of getting more Swamps for 4 mana is a bargain.
I'm running Rune-Scarred Demon, I just can't remember why it's not on this list but is in the list I play with, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Great point about Altar of Dementia. I've usually been using it to fish for fatties in others' decks, since my deck is relatively light on them, but digging into your own for needed lifegain is something I hadn't thought of.
"While I agree that fully relying on Chainer and sac outlets as a wincon is a mistake, ignoring the potential is also a mistake. You can stack Gary triggers without passing priority like a champ"
I agree. It's probably plan E or F for me, but I have Attrition as my option for such purposes. Attrition is such a good card in our deck anyway (i.e. cast Fleshbag Marauder and (if no other creatures on our board) sac to Attrition with trigger on stack to kill a dude, reanimate, repeat) or use Runescarred to wipe out troublesome creatures while Demonic Tutoring each time. As for full-on looping with Attrition, as you noted with the trigger stacking, an often over-looked interaction is to target the same creature ad infinitum by never letting the Attrition ability resolve, which is relevant if there are not enough creatures on board to allow you to loop as much as you would like. This obviously comes at the cost of B each time instead of being free, but never has it cost me a game to have to pay an extra mana in these situations, especially because the effect is so much stronger than the common sac outlets.
Also, while not for "looping", Helm of Possession is the bee's knees for us. Not only do we get the obviously powerful Control Magic effect (one of the better ways to deal with pesky commanders (DEREVI D:<) as it does not return them to the CZ), but it gives us a repeated sac outlet if we want to recycle a value ETB effect each turn (obvs super good with Solemn). It is also a colorless ability, getting around alllllmost all protections.
Also: How has Cabal Conditioning tested for you? I have a few card slots opening up, and it seems tempting to try sorcery Myojin...
Hmm I wonder why I have never tested Helm of Possession! For me Gary and Kokusho are still probably the number one win conditions. They might not kill everyone but they make most of the work. One card which has been surprisingly good for me is Lashwrithe. It's late game champion which I've thought removing several times, but I've win so many games with it I just can't. I know it looks lackluster and can't be reanimated but still it works for me
@MrCoupon & @GloriousGoose what's your take on Nirkana Revenant? I've been hesitant of buying it, since it's somewhat pricey and you most likely need to wait a turn to really abuse her.
"While I agree that fully relying on Chainer and sac outlets as a wincon is a mistake, ignoring the potential is also a mistake. You can stack Gary triggers without passing priority like a champ"
I agree. It's probably plan E or F for me, but I have Attrition as my option for such purposes. Attrition is such a good card in our deck anyway (i.e. cast Fleshbag Marauder and (if no other creatures on our board) sac to Attrition with trigger on stack to kill a dude, reanimate, repeat) or use Runescarred to wipe out troublesome creatures while Demonic Tutoring each time. As for full-on looping with Attrition, as you noted with the trigger stacking, an often over-looked interaction is to target the same creature ad infinitum by never letting the Attrition ability resolve, which is relevant if there are not enough creatures on board to allow you to loop as much as you would like. This obviously comes at the cost of B each time instead of being free, but never has it cost me a game to have to pay an extra mana in these situations, especially because the effect is so much stronger than the common sac outlets.
Also, while not for "looping", Helm of Possession is the bee's knees for us. Not only do we get the obviously powerful Control Magic effect (one of the better ways to deal with pesky commanders (DEREVI D:<) as it does not return them to the CZ), but it gives us a repeated sac outlet if we want to recycle a value ETB effect each turn (obvs super good with Solemn). It is also a colorless ability, getting around alllllmost all protections.
Also: How has Cabal Conditioning tested for you? I have a few card slots opening up, and it seems tempting to try sorcery Myojin...
I had Attrition in an early list when it was more stax based, but I cut it when I cut all my self-reanimating creatures. It was definitely powerful, though, and might find its way back in, though I'm worried about having too few creatures (even with a reanimator commander). Same story with Helm of Possession, though I want to live the dream of stealing an opposing Iona set to black, sacrificing it somehow, then reanimating it with Chainer setting it to white.
Cabal Conditioning has been... okay. I hate that you have to have a board position in order to get any real use out of it, but when it goes off correctly it's pretty much game over. I've been contemplating putting Mindslicer in that spot, both to lower the curve and also have repeatable mass discard. I also like having a nuclear option that affects everyone from a flavor perspective.
Hmm I wonder why I have never tested Helm of Possession! For me Gary and Kokusho are still probably the number one win conditions. They might not kill everyone but they make most of the work. One card which has been surprisingly good for me is Lashwrithe. It's late game champion which I've thought removing several times, but I've win so many games with it I just can't. I know it looks lackluster and can't be reanimated but still it works for me
@MrCoupon & @GloriousGoose what's your take on Nirkana Revenant? I've been hesitant of buying it, since it's somewhat pricey and you most likely need to wait a turn to really abuse her.
Lashwrithe is a card I loved when the list used Erebos, God of the Dead for surprise general damage kills and generally making self-reanimating weenies very dangerous. I want to add it back in the list just because it's such a fun card, but I never know what to cut.
As for Nirkana Revenant, it's definitely worth a slot. I prefer it over artifact doublers since it can be reanimated with Chainer and because it's a potential win condition in and of itself. You can always reanimate it at the end of the opponent to your right's turn for getting a full turn to abuse her.
@MrCoupon & @GloriousGoose what's your take on Nirkana Revenant? I've been hesitant of buying it, since it's somewhat pricey and you most likely need to wait a turn to really abuse her.
I'm actually in the process of cutting Nirkana from my list. It is personally my least favorite of the doublers. For me, the doubling as a win-con has never come into play. Obviously my testing does not represent the testing of everyone who has tried the card, but for me it is the slowest of the doublers, and comes in creature form which is on the vulnerable side. I think we have enough doublers without him, but I also can't be too outspoken seeing as it is still in my current list.
[quoye]I had Attrition in an early list when it was more stax based, but I cut it when I cut all my self-reanimating creatures. It was definitely powerful, though, and might find its way back in, though I'm worried about having too few creatures (even with a reanimator commander). Same story with Helm of Possession...[/quote]
In my time testing, I have never really run into this issue. I agree with the low creature count, so I am not sure if it is the quantity/quality of card draw or the reanimation of the commander. Probably both. On the subject, I recommend testing (if you have not already) Ancient Craving[/c} and Ambition's Cost. I like them over Diabolic Tutor, personally, as often we want quantity of cards, since all of our cards are powerful, and we already run very good tutor effects.
Random thoughts: I am looking to test some new cards for the deck. Goose, your comments on Cabal Conditioning justify my reservations of it, although I have a friend who built my deck (minus a few of the money cards) after playing it a number of times, and I think I will have him test it. Anyway, considering Batterskull, Phyrexian Altar (just thought of how fun this would be with Avenger of Zendikar, although I am very much not sold on it as a proactive card), and Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe for even more added diversity of win cons.
I run Batterskull and I love it. I'm pretty cavalier with my own life total when I'm playing Chainer, so the lifelink always ends up being relevant. Despite my relatively low creature count (my list has 20 dudes, not including Chainer himself), I even run Loxodon Warhammer as an additional buffer, often equipping it to Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton and swinging carelessly into blockers just to pad my life total a bit.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
I'm actually in the process of cutting Nirkana from my list. It is personally my least favorite of the doublers. For me, the doubling as a win-con has never come into play. Obviously my testing does not represent the testing of everyone who has tried the card, but for me it is the slowest of the doublers, and comes in creature form which is on the vulnerable side. I think we have enough doublers without him, but I also can't be too outspoken seeing as it is still in my current list.
In my time testing, I have never really run into this issue. I agree with the low creature count, so I am not sure if it is the quantity/quality of card draw or the reanimation of the commander. Probably both. On the subject, I recommend testing (if you have not already) Ancient Craving[/c} and Ambition's Cost. I like them over Diabolic Tutor, personally, as often we want quantity of cards, since all of our cards are powerful, and we already run very good tutor effects.
Random thoughts: I am looking to test some new cards for the deck. Goose, your comments on Cabal Conditioning justify my reservations of it, although I have a friend who built my deck (minus a few of the money cards) after playing it a number of times, and I think I will have him test it. Anyway, considering Batterskull, Phyrexian Altar (just thought of how fun this would be with Avenger of Zendikar, although I am very much not sold on it as a proactive card), and Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe for even more added diversity of win cons.
Hm, really? I feel like Nirkana Revenant is the third best doubler after Cabal Coffers and Crypt Ghast. True, as a creature she's more vulnerable to removal, but she's also recurrable with our commander and can really, really hurt someone with combat damage, which gives her the edge over Caged Sun. Speaking of the Sun, I've been mulling over putting it back in the list due to how powerful the effect is, and the +1/+1 to black creatures is relevant with Army of the Damned.
I put Attrition in over Murderous Cut and it performed admirably, even with few creatures. It's a sac outlet, devotion enabler, and removal piece all in one. I feel pretty stupid for not trying it earlier. Didn't find room for Helm of Possession, though I'd like to test it.
Diabolic Tutor is pretty underwhelming as a tutor, especially now that Sidisi, Undead Vizier is a thing. I'll try both Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving, since I often find myself with a ton of mana and nothing to spend it on. Running out of ammo is never fun.
Haha, wish I had a minion to do testing for me. I think I'm going to try Mindslicer in that spot for a while. As for Batterskull, have you tried Sangromancer? Putting her out before mass discard or mass removal usually nets 21+ life. A 3/3 flier isn't particularly great though so she's practically only there for life gain, which makes her of questionable value. Like spentbullets I can get pretty aggressive with my Chainer usage in the late game, so having banked random life gain can be pretty good.
I run Batterskull and I love it. I'm pretty cavalier with my own life total when I'm playing Chainer, so the lifelink always ends up being relevant. Despite my relatively low creature count (my list has 20 dudes, not including Chainer himself), I even run Loxodon Warhammer as an additional buffer, often equipping it to Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton and swinging carelessly into blockers just to pad my life total a bit.
I don't think these would suit my list, but if you're running recurring weenies I can see the appeal.
Decree of Pain is good and all, but I very rarely got a chance to use it due to the cost and the fact that when I could cast it I didn't want to due to having a superior board. Plus, with the amount of card draw I'm running, the card draw component was usually just overkill. Thinking about cutting some mana rocks for more fun stuff, but they dilute the power of the deck's card draw.
I played with a Sangromancer for a while, but it was too conditional and usually didn't do anything. For some extra lifegain I personally use Wurmcoil Engine which has been pretty good value and I see MrCoupon uses it aswell.
I played with a Sangromancer for a while, but it was too conditional and usually didn't do anything. For some extra lifegain I personally use Wurmcoil Engine which has been pretty good value and I see MrCoupon uses it aswell.
Oh yeah, totally forgot about Wurmcoil Engine since I had omitted it for budgetary reasons. Maybe I'll slot him in, but I'm worried he's just going to be a big dumb beater that will gain me 12 or so life before eating removal. True, the engine is pretty resistant to removal, but eh. I'm also worried it might be too big of a threat, which is bad for a deck that aims to be in second place until the endgame. I'll test it out over Sangromancer and see how I like it.
Speaking of budgetary constraints, the real reason I'm not running Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is because I hate foils and don't want to fork out the cash for a P3K one. Obviously he's pretty nutty with Chainer recurring him, but I've got Yawgmoth's Will for explosive recursion.
Have you considered Ashes to Ashes? I use it in all my control decks that I can, and it's amazing. You could probably stand to lose a card advantage sorcery in its place.
Also, Phyrexian Altar is such a great sac outlet in Chainer decks, as it gives you colored mana, especially with Abhorrent Overlord. Just throw a Kokusho or Gary out there to win the game and not run out of your greatest resource: life.
Speaking of budgetary constraints, the real reason I'm not running Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is because I hate foils and don't want to fork out the cash for a P3K one. Obviously he's pretty nutty with Chainer recurring him, but I've got Yawgmoth's Will for explosive recursion.
XHD is a very nice piece bc he means that once you have assembled your infinite mana combo (of which only one card, Rings of Brighthearth, actually has to resolve), your attempts to finish the game are much, much harder to counter. Not impossible, but amazing leverage. I traded away my Yawgmoth's Will a little while back, and now am regretting it as I would like to test it again.
I have not yet been happy with Phyrexian Altar, despite drawing it in the first three games after picking one up. Not giving up on it yet, but it is such a "do nothing" card that I have felt as if I have handicapped myself a card in hand.
I have not yet been happy with Phyrexian Altar, despite drawing it in the first three games after picking one up. Not giving up on it yet, but it is such a "do nothing" card that I have felt as if I have handicapped myself a card in hand.
Free sac outlets are fantastic in any Chainer list. One that's free and gives you colored mana, though, is even greater. When I win with Gray Merchant of Asphodel, it's often from recurring him with Chainer a finite amount of times, and the extra mana from saccing him often gives me at least one more use.
It's also nice to sac your board, then use all or part of the mana for Living Death. But there are tons more ways to abuse this card, and they mainly revolve around Chainer's ability. I'll just throw out one more real quick, though: Abhorrent Overlord.
I have not yet been happy with Phyrexian Altar, despite drawing it in the first three games after picking one up. Not giving up on it yet, but it is such a "do nothing" card that I have felt as if I have handicapped myself a card in hand.
Free sac outlets are fantastic in any Chainer list. One that's free and gives you colored mana, though, is even greater. When I win with Gray Merchant of Asphodel, it's often from recurring him with Chainer a finite amount of times, and the extra mana from saccing him often gives me at least one more use.
It's also nice to sac your board, then use all or part of the mana for Living Death. But there are tons more ways to abuse this card, and they mainly revolve around Chainer's ability. I'll just throw out one more real quick, though: Abhorrent Overlord.
Yeah... I actually have a LOT of experience with Chainer, and I can say that, thus far, it does *not* appear to be fantastic in my list. Now, it may end up looking good in the long run, but I hold my doubts. I don't play Grey Merchant because typically it does nothing productive. Gains us a little life, does no significant damage. I find that making powerful plays are typically more productive than finding more obtuse means to abuse less powerful cards in multiplicity. With 8 mana, would I rather Grey Merchant, sac and recur, or would I rather cast Myojin and make each opponent discard their hand? It isn't even close. And one requires only one card to be successful. I am aware of the Living Death scenario, but it really isn't all that easy to set up, and it is vulnerable to all the things are deck is already vulnerable to. I prefer to diversify my array of threats to avoid one means shutting us down entirely. I feel as if we often ignore the copious amount of time that sac outlets simply do nothing. Like, literally nothing. They sit on board while our opponents do good things. I guess this is truly meta dependant, but I found that using valuable board development turns on sac outlets meant inevitably losing to UGx decks who instead of playing "cute" cards, develop their board and then win the game before we can set up weird loops. But if the meta is slow, I guess it doesn't really matter what cards we use to try to kill people.
To me Abhorrent Overlord is another card that seemingly does nothing. It doesn't win the game quickly. It doesn't put a ton of pressure on any individual opponent (outside of an intricate set up, which is easily disrupted), and it its combo potential is pretty low, albeit admittedly existent. Here is a card that seems far better with Chainer, and in its own right as well: Contamination. In about any situation in which you can get nutty with Overlord, you can most likely lock out your opponents with Contamination. Contam also has the added benefit of being a cheap means of ensuring your combo turn goes undisrupted.
Though I started playing Magic as a kid sometime around when Ice Age was released, I didn't start playing 'seriously' until around the time Invasion was new. My first real deck was a Pestilence deck, and ever since then I've had a strong appreciation for mono black. I'm just now returning to the game, and after literally over a year of research and hem hawing I've more or less settled on the core of the deck, though I am of course open to suggestions.
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
Creatures: 17
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Magus of the Coffers
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Mindslicer
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Instants: 8
1 Dismember
1 Entomb
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Murder
1 Scour from Existence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Withering Boon
1 Wretched Confluence
1 Attrition
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
Sorceries: 16
1 All Is Dust
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Ancient Craving
1 Army of the Damned
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Exsanguinate
1 Mind Sludge
1 Mutilate
1 Night's Whisper
1 Promise of Power
1 Read the Bones
1 Sign in Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Planeswalkers: 2
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Artifacts: 15
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Lashwrithe
1 Mind Stone
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sol Ring
1 Thought Vessel
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Blighted Fen
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Deserted Temple
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
29 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Yes, yes, it's yet another mono black control list, though there's some subtle synergy going on as well. I've intentionally avoided going the stax and combo routes (except for the Rings of Brighthearth/Deserted Temple/Cabal Coffers combo, but it's not something I really tutor for) because I find them boring to play. As is, the deck is very interactive and has multiple avenues towards victory, which is how I like it.
As I said, suggestions are very welcome. Currently I'm trying to find a way to fix the awkward opening hands mono black can have.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
One suggestion would be to replace one of your mana rocks with Jet Medallion. If you find yourself casting a few spells a turn, this can help you squeeze out bigger spells.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
I have a couple of sac outlets, namely Dimir House Guard who can be reanimated by Chainer in a pinch after tutoring. DHG is one of the all stars of the deck. Infernal Tribute does a surprising amount of work and compliments Gary rather well. There's also Altar of Dementia, which compliments the gameplan and commander.
I had Jet Medallion in briefly but cut it due to a) not playing multiple spells until late in the game where shaving 1-2 mana isn't great and b) it can't be used to activate Chainer. A fine card in XHD lists but less than exciting for Chainer.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Thanks!
I haven't had mana problems per se, but then I've always had the rocks in the list. I added some of the ETBT rocks later on when I found that I really, really wanted to have one in the opening grip. As I'm sure you know, mono black really wants to hit every land drop, and the rocks sort of double as land drops that also accelerate. Plus, they help diversify my mana ramp so that I'm not completely wiped out to MLD or mass artifact removal (unless it's something like Jokulhaups or Obliterate). They do become dead draws in the late midgame onwards, but at that point I'm usually drawing multiple cards or have Chainer out, which lessens the importance of a topdeck. If I'm desperate enough, they get sacced to Infernal Tribute in the late game to push through some emergency card draw. I have considered Coalition Relic and Gilded Lotus, but eh... on the other hand, cutting some rocks does free up slots for more interesting cards.
Unfortunately, at the moment XHD and Karn Liberated are out of budget, and they're both really, really excellent cards for mono black due to their unique effects. Honestly, I'm really a budget player. The only reason I have Damnation and Crucible of Worlds is because I've owned them for forever. As for the instants and sorceries in the list, due to the fact that I don't have any recursion for them I usually win without them. I have considered Yawgmoth's Will. It is the most broken card in Magic, after all.
Honestly, I just never considered the altars. In jmdt's Chainer megathread I saw that a lot of people utilize them alongside XHD + Living Death loops, but that's a different direction than I wanted to go. I'm also running very few creatures, with even fewer that really want to be sacrificed, even with a reanimator general.
I wouldn't know, I haven't actually played the deck in front of people yet, haha. I only have ~half the deck on me at the moment; I'm a returning player who hasn't played in nearly a decade. But since I have multiple ways to win, I'd think it wouldn't get too annoying. I've consdered adding in Lashwrithe to assist with the beatdown plan and also make winning via commander damage a realistic goal.
I do hardcast Myojin, and although it sucks to see it on turn 3 the effect is just too potent to cut. I toyed with Mindslicer for a bit, but I never liked discarding my own hand, even if I can theoretically recover better than other players.
As for Necrotic Ooe, that's a cute interaction. I'll have to try it.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I've read quite a bit of jmdt's Chainer thread and have several other mono black threads bookmarked. From them I built my own shell, and was wanting specific feedback on it. It's also partially for my own reference. And yes, I'm playing Rings of Brighthearth
I think I'm running enough creatures for Lashwrithe, especially for a recursive commander. It might be better in a stax list that also runs self-reanimating critters like Reassembling Skeleton, but it still turns whatever it's attached to into a serious threat. Maybe thinking of attaching it to Chainer is a bit greedy, but alternate win conditions beyond Gary loops helps the deck by making it less linear.
Haha, I meant that drawing the Myojin on turn 3 sucks. 8cmc cards should all but win games, and putting opponents into top deck mode when I've got a full grip and am drawing 2+ cards a turn is close.
Burnished Hart is a card I had in for awhile, but it was a worse top deck than the mana rocks in the mid to late game. I do like it early on when spreading the ramp over two turns isn't so bad. Maybe it has a place over some of the other cards I'm running, though.
On to cuts!
-2 Swamp
+ Thawing Glaciers
+ Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Glaciers is sloooow, but synergy with Deserted Temple and Rings of Brighthearth and ensuring land drops make it a decent inclusion. Not sure cutting a land for it is the right call, though.
As for Nykthos, I had originally excluded it because it seemed winmore; if I had the board state to make it powerful, I probably didn't need the mana. After throwing it in on a whim though it definitely earned it's keep.
On the chopping block:
No Mercy: black Moat is powerful and it helps devotion, but it doesn't advance my game plan too well.
Trading Post: a very durdley card, but it is quietly powerful.
Murderous Cut: only because Silence the Believers is tutorable with Dimir House Guard .
Crucible of Worlds: it's mainly there to recur Cabal Coffers, but I would love to eventually add fetches in.
Potential adds:
Yawgmoth's Will: no explanation necessary.
Silence the Believers: spot removal that just might target more than one creature.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Lymphoma Cancer Survivor!
Between four mana doublers, mana rocks, Liliana's ultimate (it happens every now and then), and Nykthos, when I start Gary loops I have more than enough mana to kill the table in a single turn.
That said it's honestly probably a better inclusion than Altar of Dementia since milling is pretty useless most of the time. I'm just attached to AoD because thematically it matches my general. Phyrexian Altar is also pretty expensive for a minor improvement and moreover I hate the artwork. If you're looking to make the deck more competitive then I think PA is the better card.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Lymphoma Cancer Survivor!
So it turns out my trade fodder was more valuable than I originally thought and I'm able to afford to put more money into the deck than I originally anticipated. That means:
- Thawing Glaciers
- Swamp
+ Polluted Delta
+ Bloodstained Mire
- Spine of Ish Sah
- No Mercy
+ Karn Liberated
+ Yawgmoth's Will
I also think Nevinyrral's Disk is probably a little overkill with all the other mass removal I'm running, but blowing up the world is really, really fun. I'd like to up the black permanent count a bit to fuel Gary and Nykthos, and I'm probably going to try to squeeze in more sac outlets to test. Any opinions on cuts?
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I am always a bit amused by the notion that Chainer decks are supposed to win by "looping" [insert X creature]. Like, check this out instead: we destroy the board. We wreck our opponents hands. Everything good they had is now ours. We turn our guys sideways at them and win the game. All the will, we can fall ass-backwards into limitless of functionally limitless mana and Exsanguinate the table out. No sacrifice of power for an easier-to-counter finesse approach. What makes Chainer such an amazing commander is that we can run a straight MBC list, with only minor tweaks to his play up his strengths (see: Bone Shredder, etc), and *still* have the best reanimator deck at the table. Better than Sheoldred, better than Karador, better than Mimeoplasm. Without using our card slots on *any* reanimation spells. It diversifies our win cons, ramps up our power, and means that we only have to hope that the UG/x ramp decks don't combo off before we can come online (we are typically over/under 1.5 turns slower than UGx, but if we stick around, we beat them by using their own cards against them).
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I also notice that you're not running Rune-Scarred Demon, which I think is much better in a Chainer deck than Diabolic Tutor. I'd encourage you to keep Altar of Dementia. I personally run it and Phyrexian Altar, as Ashnod's Altar got cut quite a long time ago, since it only produces colorless mana. Altar of Dementia has saved my skin more times than I can count--my Chainer deck often becomes Archenemy when it starts generating absurd amounts of BBB, and I have reliably used Altar of Dementia to mill myself in response to an opponent's attempt to kill me, only to see Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Kokusho, the Evening Star hit the GY with enough leftover mana to reanimate & sac it enough times to survive an alpha strike, if not outright win on the spot. I've always found AoD more useful at milling myself more than milling my opponents.
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Senpai noticed me!
This is the basic philosophy that inspired the list. Build the best MBC list and still out-reanimate the table. I fudged a little, as I included a single card whose only function is that of a sac outlet, but again, I wanted to diversify my wincons even more, and the flavor connection is tasty. While I agree that fully relying on Chainer and sac outlets as a wincon is a mistake, ignoring the potential is also a mistake. You can stack Gary triggers without passing priority like a champ and only be stopped by something like Time Stop, which is pretty powerful. Of course you run Dimir House Guard and can loop Gary or Kokusho as a back up and have far more experience with the deck than me, so. I also think you play in a higher powered meta than I will.
Journeyer's Kite is just so dang slow. By the time it gets online and generates advantage my opponents will have actually threatening cards of their own, and 8 mana for two lands is terribly inefficient; I think I'd rather run Armillary Sphere or Burnished Hart. What makes Liliana of the Dark Realms so good is her versatility. Getting a Swamp and then killing a pesky creature with the possibility of getting more Swamps for 4 mana is a bargain.
I'm running Rune-Scarred Demon, I just can't remember why it's not on this list but is in the list I play with, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Great point about Altar of Dementia. I've usually been using it to fish for fatties in others' decks, since my deck is relatively light on them, but digging into your own for needed lifegain is something I hadn't thought of.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I agree. It's probably plan E or F for me, but I have Attrition as my option for such purposes. Attrition is such a good card in our deck anyway (i.e. cast Fleshbag Marauder and (if no other creatures on our board) sac to Attrition with trigger on stack to kill a dude, reanimate, repeat) or use Runescarred to wipe out troublesome creatures while Demonic Tutoring each time. As for full-on looping with Attrition, as you noted with the trigger stacking, an often over-looked interaction is to target the same creature ad infinitum by never letting the Attrition ability resolve, which is relevant if there are not enough creatures on board to allow you to loop as much as you would like. This obviously comes at the cost of B each time instead of being free, but never has it cost me a game to have to pay an extra mana in these situations, especially because the effect is so much stronger than the common sac outlets.
Also, while not for "looping", Helm of Possession is the bee's knees for us. Not only do we get the obviously powerful Control Magic effect (one of the better ways to deal with pesky commanders (DEREVI D:<) as it does not return them to the CZ), but it gives us a repeated sac outlet if we want to recycle a value ETB effect each turn (obvs super good with Solemn). It is also a colorless ability, getting around alllllmost all protections.
Also: How has Cabal Conditioning tested for you? I have a few card slots opening up, and it seems tempting to try sorcery Myojin...
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
@MrCoupon & @GloriousGoose what's your take on Nirkana Revenant? I've been hesitant of buying it, since it's somewhat pricey and you most likely need to wait a turn to really abuse her.
I had Attrition in an early list when it was more stax based, but I cut it when I cut all my self-reanimating creatures. It was definitely powerful, though, and might find its way back in, though I'm worried about having too few creatures (even with a reanimator commander). Same story with Helm of Possession, though I want to live the dream of stealing an opposing Iona set to black, sacrificing it somehow, then reanimating it with Chainer setting it to white.
Cabal Conditioning has been... okay. I hate that you have to have a board position in order to get any real use out of it, but when it goes off correctly it's pretty much game over. I've been contemplating putting Mindslicer in that spot, both to lower the curve and also have repeatable mass discard. I also like having a nuclear option that affects everyone from a flavor perspective.
Lashwrithe is a card I loved when the list used Erebos, God of the Dead for surprise general damage kills and generally making self-reanimating weenies very dangerous. I want to add it back in the list just because it's such a fun card, but I never know what to cut.
As for Nirkana Revenant, it's definitely worth a slot. I prefer it over artifact doublers since it can be reanimated with Chainer and because it's a potential win condition in and of itself. You can always reanimate it at the end of the opponent to your right's turn for getting a full turn to abuse her.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I'm actually in the process of cutting Nirkana from my list. It is personally my least favorite of the doublers. For me, the doubling as a win-con has never come into play. Obviously my testing does not represent the testing of everyone who has tried the card, but for me it is the slowest of the doublers, and comes in creature form which is on the vulnerable side. I think we have enough doublers without him, but I also can't be too outspoken seeing as it is still in my current list.
[quoye]I had Attrition in an early list when it was more stax based, but I cut it when I cut all my self-reanimating creatures. It was definitely powerful, though, and might find its way back in, though I'm worried about having too few creatures (even with a reanimator commander). Same story with Helm of Possession...[/quote]
In my time testing, I have never really run into this issue. I agree with the low creature count, so I am not sure if it is the quantity/quality of card draw or the reanimation of the commander. Probably both. On the subject, I recommend testing (if you have not already) Ancient Craving[/c} and Ambition's Cost. I like them over Diabolic Tutor, personally, as often we want quantity of cards, since all of our cards are powerful, and we already run very good tutor effects.
Random thoughts: I am looking to test some new cards for the deck. Goose, your comments on Cabal Conditioning justify my reservations of it, although I have a friend who built my deck (minus a few of the money cards) after playing it a number of times, and I think I will have him test it. Anyway, considering Batterskull, Phyrexian Altar (just thought of how fun this would be with Avenger of Zendikar, although I am very much not sold on it as a proactive card), and Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe for even more added diversity of win cons.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Hm, really? I feel like Nirkana Revenant is the third best doubler after Cabal Coffers and Crypt Ghast. True, as a creature she's more vulnerable to removal, but she's also recurrable with our commander and can really, really hurt someone with combat damage, which gives her the edge over Caged Sun. Speaking of the Sun, I've been mulling over putting it back in the list due to how powerful the effect is, and the +1/+1 to black creatures is relevant with Army of the Damned.
I put Attrition in over Murderous Cut and it performed admirably, even with few creatures. It's a sac outlet, devotion enabler, and removal piece all in one. I feel pretty stupid for not trying it earlier. Didn't find room for Helm of Possession, though I'd like to test it.
Diabolic Tutor is pretty underwhelming as a tutor, especially now that Sidisi, Undead Vizier is a thing. I'll try both Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving, since I often find myself with a ton of mana and nothing to spend it on. Running out of ammo is never fun.
Haha, wish I had a minion to do testing for me. I think I'm going to try Mindslicer in that spot for a while. As for Batterskull, have you tried Sangromancer? Putting her out before mass discard or mass removal usually nets 21+ life. A 3/3 flier isn't particularly great though so she's practically only there for life gain, which makes her of questionable value. Like spentbullets I can get pretty aggressive with my Chainer usage in the late game, so having banked random life gain can be pretty good.
I don't think these would suit my list, but if you're running recurring weenies I can see the appeal.
Now, more changes.
- Murderous Cut
- Merciless Executioner
- Cabal Conditioning
- Decree of Pain
- Diabolic Tutor (anyone else notice that the guy on the card looks like Ramsay Bolton?)
+ Attrition
+ Lashwrithe
+ Mindslicer
+ Ancient Craving
+ Ambition's Cost
Decree of Pain is good and all, but I very rarely got a chance to use it due to the cost and the fact that when I could cast it I didn't want to due to having a superior board. Plus, with the amount of card draw I'm running, the card draw component was usually just overkill. Thinking about cutting some mana rocks for more fun stuff, but they dilute the power of the deck's card draw.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Oh yeah, totally forgot about Wurmcoil Engine since I had omitted it for budgetary reasons. Maybe I'll slot him in, but I'm worried he's just going to be a big dumb beater that will gain me 12 or so life before eating removal. True, the engine is pretty resistant to removal, but eh. I'm also worried it might be too big of a threat, which is bad for a deck that aims to be in second place until the endgame. I'll test it out over Sangromancer and see how I like it.
Speaking of budgetary constraints, the real reason I'm not running Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is because I hate foils and don't want to fork out the cash for a P3K one. Obviously he's pretty nutty with Chainer recurring him, but I've got Yawgmoth's Will for explosive recursion.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Also, Phyrexian Altar is such a great sac outlet in Chainer decks, as it gives you colored mana, especially with Abhorrent Overlord. Just throw a Kokusho or Gary out there to win the game and not run out of your greatest resource: life.
XHD is a very nice piece bc he means that once you have assembled your infinite mana combo (of which only one card, Rings of Brighthearth, actually has to resolve), your attempts to finish the game are much, much harder to counter. Not impossible, but amazing leverage. I traded away my Yawgmoth's Will a little while back, and now am regretting it as I would like to test it again.
I have not yet been happy with Phyrexian Altar, despite drawing it in the first three games after picking one up. Not giving up on it yet, but it is such a "do nothing" card that I have felt as if I have handicapped myself a card in hand.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Free sac outlets are fantastic in any Chainer list. One that's free and gives you colored mana, though, is even greater. When I win with Gray Merchant of Asphodel, it's often from recurring him with Chainer a finite amount of times, and the extra mana from saccing him often gives me at least one more use.
It's also nice to sac your board, then use all or part of the mana for Living Death. But there are tons more ways to abuse this card, and they mainly revolve around Chainer's ability. I'll just throw out one more real quick, though: Abhorrent Overlord.
Yeah... I actually have a LOT of experience with Chainer, and I can say that, thus far, it does *not* appear to be fantastic in my list. Now, it may end up looking good in the long run, but I hold my doubts. I don't play Grey Merchant because typically it does nothing productive. Gains us a little life, does no significant damage. I find that making powerful plays are typically more productive than finding more obtuse means to abuse less powerful cards in multiplicity. With 8 mana, would I rather Grey Merchant, sac and recur, or would I rather cast Myojin and make each opponent discard their hand? It isn't even close. And one requires only one card to be successful. I am aware of the Living Death scenario, but it really isn't all that easy to set up, and it is vulnerable to all the things are deck is already vulnerable to. I prefer to diversify my array of threats to avoid one means shutting us down entirely. I feel as if we often ignore the copious amount of time that sac outlets simply do nothing. Like, literally nothing. They sit on board while our opponents do good things. I guess this is truly meta dependant, but I found that using valuable board development turns on sac outlets meant inevitably losing to UGx decks who instead of playing "cute" cards, develop their board and then win the game before we can set up weird loops. But if the meta is slow, I guess it doesn't really matter what cards we use to try to kill people.
To me Abhorrent Overlord is another card that seemingly does nothing. It doesn't win the game quickly. It doesn't put a ton of pressure on any individual opponent (outside of an intricate set up, which is easily disrupted), and it its combo potential is pretty low, albeit admittedly existent. Here is a card that seems far better with Chainer, and in its own right as well: Contamination. In about any situation in which you can get nutty with Overlord, you can most likely lock out your opponents with Contamination. Contam also has the added benefit of being a cheap means of ensuring your combo turn goes undisrupted.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer