Quick Intro:
Once upon a time I played EDH extensively and was very active in constructing tier 1/S competitive multiplayer decks in a mid size play group that built itself a slew of regional success in GP/SCG side events and larger mutliplayer and 1v1 events. Long story short most of us took a step back from magic 2 or so years ago until we started playing with a new playgroup just recently which rekindled a lot of the same deck building and theory crafting we were about back then and I got a chance to look back at all of it with a fresh eye.
In traditional formats, decks fall under broad archetypes based on their general game plan and path to victory (Aggro, Combo, Control, Prison, Mid-Range to generalize). Upon viewing the metagame that developed in our playgroup, it was clear that overwhelmingly everything we had built or were currently building fell under the broader archetypes of Combo, Prison, and Midrange. Aggro doesn't really work all that well based on the deck building pressures that come along with success in a multiplayer format with 40 life, but control? True patient, reactive, inevitable, MUC/Legacy-Landstill-esque control? Sure prison is a form of control, but I saw a mode of control that wasn't based around locking the opponent out through proactive, tap-out on your turn global resource denial cards. However that truly reactive control I was familiar with in other formats spiritually did not exist in the metagame we had developed for ourselves.
If you envision EDH as a 1v3 format, its clear that you will never have enough resources to out 1v1 the rest of the group; that's why EDH pressures deck design to favor generating card advantage by playing X-for-1's to keep you on track against the rest of the group, and 1v1's are for the most part reserved for answering the card quality of opponents. Prison works great for this, but permission as a gameplan is a bit more tricky; but having played this format for so long I knew the cards were their to support it. When this new group I played with had a Talrand deck control deck I found interesting, I decided to try my hand at a strategy I hadn't ever seriously attempted at the level necessary to compete with the best of the best in our group: Draw-GO.
The first iterations of this list were mono blue, with Venser, Shaper Savant and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Talrand, Sky Summoner for generals. Permutations of the 1v1 S tier, Vendillion Clique archetypal deck but tuned for multiplayer. This tuning involved a core ramp element in order to compensate for the resources needed to leave up answers to atleast 2 players, which would then be replenished by the increase draw power it enables. It became clear however that the card pool available in mono blue wasn't cutting it for the gameplan that I envisioned. Nin, the Pain Artist was a consideration for a splash, as nin as a general offers a great systemic draw option and many strong utility cards that cover up blues weaknesses, but ultimately the ramp the deck was proving to need in testing still lacked.
Onto green, which offered all the ramp that could be asked for. In narrowing down a general, Kruphix, God of Horizons on the short-list of UG and UGX generals seemed to be at least be somewhat conducive to the Draw-GO strategy I was trying to put together. Most of the other option offered draw or some form of external control which was useful but pushed the deck construction in a direction I didn't care for. But combined with Kruphix's very own prophet who was among the first cards added upon switching to green, a synergy clicked and the rest of the construction sort of fell into place.
Here is a control deck that wins through politics, that wins through stopping the player farthest ahead and thus enabling the other players time to catch up and directing them towards the primary threat all while keeping the entire table in check. A deck designed to keep everyone honest. A true, competitive multiplayer draw-go deck whose end game is more than just a consequence of failing to win in the early/mid game.
Notes on the Deck:
- It appears that the deck's initial ramp strategy was poorly structured. It involves many cards that enable ramp without providing ramp themselves (Burgeoning, Exploration, Skyshroud Ranger, Sakura Tribe Scout) and few that provide their mana unconditionally in that they require access to green, a color that I am only splashing for.
- Spawnsire of Ulamog is spiritually the type of win condition this deck needs in that the card quality is so high that it beats an entire table with no other set up from other cards leaving me free to keep my deck full with other important archetypes of cards like ramp, permission, and draw. However, due to the official rules of edh not permitting sideboards this card technically does not function the way I need it. Yes there are alternate rules that permit sideboards and there is a provision in the rule set that allows this card to work based on prior agreement with the group, but I am not okay with having a win con that isn't 100% legitimate (IE I wouldnt be able to take it to a local or SCG/GP side). The compromise I am making is that I am going to continue playing with it in my group but will still be looking for alternate win cons that fit my need for slot density assurance of victory.
- In testing, late game this deck occasionally runs out of draw engines and stalls. This should be a matter of increasing the density that draw slots fill in this deck.
This is still very much a Beta list. Overarchingly, there is still alot of optimization to do based on the concentration of counters/lands/draw/ramp spells and engines and I'm sure there are plenty of cards that warrant consideration that I have not looked at yet. I will be updating this list as I tweak the deck, and anyone interested in joining in on some of my playgroups Cockatrice testing sessions feel free to PM me.
Anyway, you should probably put your list in deck tags. Also, don't hide it away in a spoiler. Someone comes in, they want to see your list and have it be quickly and readily readable.
Anyway, you should probably put your list in deck tags. Also, don't hide it away in a spoiler. Someone comes in, they want to see your list and have it be quickly and readily readable.
Done and done.
Anyways, in terms of overall gameplan a weakness that has come up in testing has been the draw in the deck petering out after a period when some of the bigger engines are not drawn. Overwhelming Intellect was an option I was considering which also increases the concentration of cspells.
How often do you find you turn Kruphix on, or care about turning it on? Prime Speaker Zegana almost turns it on all by herself, and would draw at least 5 cards in that case.
Interesting build. I'm pretty sure I pulled pretty heavily from a decklist of yours when I was building Azusa, Lost but Seeking a few years ago. It ended up being perhaps my most well-tuned and powerful deck. Glad to see another decklist of yours.
Even with as much permission as you have, you're not going to have mana up for every relevant threat. I could see a Stoneforge Mystic getting in under you and then you getting smacked around with a Sword of Feast and Famine or whatever else for days. Your ways of dealing with anything that resolves seem pretty limited - Cyclonic Rift, Beast Within, Oblivion Stone, Evacuation, All is Dust. And that's where I've always been tempted to add a third color for draw-go (my main attempt was Wydwen, the Biting Gale). Black would give you more instant-speed creature removal. White would give you more instant-speed creature, artifact, and enchantment removal. Even in green there's some more efficient options you could add - Naturalize comes to mind. But you probably have a better feel for how much you need then I do.
@ZenN: Kruphix is never a priority to put online, and having it online only rarely happens. The indestructible blocker is nice but it also opens it up to a lot more removal, and part of Kruphix's strength comes from its resilience to removal.
@SH0opdAwoOp: Glad to hear! I've seen that Azusa list copied and derived from lots and lots of different players and threads since I put it up way back when and its nice that people still remember it. I have a current list kicking around, maybe when I have some time I'll update my old threads. Those decks however were very much the end product of a lot of testing, whereas this thread was posted probably two or so days after its conception so it will take a little bit to get it to that point.
To answer your question about exile, probably not as the bonus effects from 3+ counter feel like they need to be a bit more tangible than exile. Dream fracture is nice though. Regarding answers to permanents, you may be right but it certainly feels like this deck wants them to be X-1, not 1-1. A lot of the time this deck will just get into the mode of allowing cards it otherwise wouldn't to resolve only to wipe the board, and I very rarely find myself wanting something in between. More O-stone effects would be ideal yes, not sure where I would be getting them from atm though. Splashing black is something I was considering as black has so many powerhouse cards available to it, I just couldn't find a general that was significantly synergistic to my strategy in BUG. Its certainly something worth exploring though!
I also updated the thread with a changelog, In/out watchlists, and a notes section providing some insight into the things I'm considering as I tweak this deck's direction including the ramp suite/Spawnsire's legality as a wincon/density of draw. ATM my primary goal is re hauling the ramp suite.
Splashing black is something I was considering as black has so many powerhouse cards available to it, I just couldn't find a general that was significantly synergistic to my strategy in BUG. Its certainly something worth exploring though!
I've long been considering trying to build a Damia, Sage of Stone list that does something similar to what this list seems to be trying to do. There, the idea would be to run the most efficient counters and removal and make up for the fact that you're 1-for-1'ing people a lot by the fact that Damia is refilling your entire hand every turn, as long as you can protect her.
I've long been considering trying to build a Damia, Sage of Stone list that does something similar to what this list seems to be trying to do. There, the idea would be to run the most efficient counters and removal and make up for the fact that you're 1-for-1'ing people a lot by the fact that Damia is refilling your entire hand every turn, as long as you can protect her.
I disagree that Damia has synergy with this sort of deck. It has the word draw printed on it yes, but emptying your hand isn't something this deck ever really does, and tapping out for that effect seems like it would be bad. Damia is disincentivizing you to play your draw spells, and represents you as a systemic threat whereas we want to be primarily flying under the radar for as long as actually possible. This is also not to mention that it doesnt work when your hand is 7+ which is often come mid/late. I think black is strong yes, but the reason I'm not stumbling over myself to splash a third color is the same that I am only lightly splashing green in this deck: mono blue still has just about everything we want in this strategy; the second color was only brought in to shore up a few shortcomings blue still has.
Made some other larger changes to the deck, including putting in Nevinyrral's Disk and Academy Ruins to add another much needed board wipe and extremely potent consequential engine. Very, very happy with this change so far in testing. Also added the reformatted decklist for better viewing as well today and as an update, Memnarch is emerging as the primary contender for the 1 card win slot.
Played a few games with the deck today and have some observations. I was using the most recent list from when we edited it a few days ago, when we put in rampant growth. I made two changes since then, - Rampant Growth + Into the North (same card but can find Sheets) and -Opportunity +Dragonlord's Prerogative (same card but doesnt target).
From playing today I think the deck has too few green sources still. I had to mulligan to 5 bc an otherwise good hand had no green lands to cast Exploration. What's the point of having green at all if we can't produce it early to cast our ramp? I already cut 1 more island for the last Fetch we weren't running bc that's free as it finds Trop. I think increasing the forest count is correct though, 3 or 4 maybe even more is correct. Casting Magus t2 is also very important and we need green to do it.
Second observation is the deck definitely stalls when it cant find a draw spell and chain them. Perhaps running Opportunity in addition to Prerogative is correct.
The problem with Urban Evolution is that it's a 5 mana investment. We want our ramp to be a 1 or 2 mana investment.
I think the problem there is that you're looking at Urban Evolution as a ramp card. It's a draw spell that will sometimes give you incidental ramp. It's literally Divination + Explore.
Made some quality of life changes removing some of the weaker cards, increasing permission density, and furthering the shift away from perm ramp to land tutor ramp. Lol @sam commenting on changes that havent been posted yet. Very meta.
Memnarch is also officially in as the decks one card win condition. I will comment on some of the discussion in a longer post later on, but I'm seeing some good ideas that I like.
With Kruphix on the table it'll rarely require tapping more than 2 lands. Really not a big deal.
When Kruphix is on the table and we can make Urban cost UG to cast the game is at a stage where we want better draw power than Urban. Sure, it's good, but not worth the sorcery speed drawback during regular stages of the game. When optimizing a deck don't think about dreamland scenarios, think about what kind of spells the deck really wants.
This deck wants:
Ramp that requires only a 2 or 1 mana investment, and optimally puts lands into play.
Instant speed interaction that gives what you paid for.
Board wipes.
Card draw, preferably in the form of engines that you invest for once and stick around or as instants that give a burst of cards.
An inevitable win condition.
Speaking of board wipes....Ugin? Seems great in this deck, pay 1 more for an All is Dust that consequentially stays behind as a threat we can protect.
If having your general in play is a "dreamland scenario" then you need to be re-evaluating more than a single card.
Also, you're significantly undervaluing Urban Evolution and the potential it has to get you ahead.
Casting Kruphix is not a dreamland scenario, it just comes in after your gameplan has been established, not during like with most decks.
I too agree with Sam/DrawCards; Urban evolution isnt quite the effect we want to be tapping out for. Compare it to Jace's Ingenuity and you have a prime example of why context is the most important factor in evaluating the strength of cards in this deck. In most EDH decks, the sheer tempo of Urban Evolution is so obviously stronger than having the choice of instant speed, and the reason that usually is is because each card in their gameplane is designed to put themselves farther and farther ahead on the board in relation to the rest of the table. Here, our cards value comes from how they match the card quality of the best of the best of everyone else. Urban evolution takes away our choice... our advantage of always having all possible information before making a decision, which is a terrible trade off as the extra land drop isnt accelerating you into your win conditions, because this deck only has one in the late, late game.
Just put Seedborn Muse into this deck and initial testing is highly in favor of the cards strength in this deck. Though Memnarch is the card the deck actually wins the game with, it is pretty clear that Prophet of Kruphix is the decks condition for victory. We have a few ways to cast or tutor up prophet, but the deck seems narrow in the sense that if anything comes online to counter the effectiveness of prophet the deck stalls when it can be avoided. Adding a second card with this effect keeps the deck live against the worst of scenarios and increases the redundancy of finding this path to victory. Also added a few other cards including Ugin, the Spirit Dragon to increase the wipe density.
Some great suggestions coming in from the thread and making a difference in the overall list!
@Krosan Grip: Seems alright before you consider how narrow it is in the scheme of all the situations we would want a 1 for 1 spot removal to answer resolved threats. This is why Beast Within is in the deck; we need these effects to be virtual vindicates if they are ever to have a place in the deck.
Buried Ruin should probably come in for an Island. Unlike Ruins it's a one-shot deal but it brings the artifact straight to our hand. Having more redundancy to recur wipes and save Memnarch is good when it's consequentially on a land.
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KRUPHIX, GOD OF NO
Quick Intro:
Once upon a time I played EDH extensively and was very active in constructing tier 1/S competitive multiplayer decks in a mid size play group that built itself a slew of regional success in GP/SCG side events and larger mutliplayer and 1v1 events. Long story short most of us took a step back from magic 2 or so years ago until we started playing with a new playgroup just recently which rekindled a lot of the same deck building and theory crafting we were about back then and I got a chance to look back at all of it with a fresh eye.
In traditional formats, decks fall under broad archetypes based on their general game plan and path to victory (Aggro, Combo, Control, Prison, Mid-Range to generalize). Upon viewing the metagame that developed in our playgroup, it was clear that overwhelmingly everything we had built or were currently building fell under the broader archetypes of Combo, Prison, and Midrange. Aggro doesn't really work all that well based on the deck building pressures that come along with success in a multiplayer format with 40 life, but control? True patient, reactive, inevitable, MUC/Legacy-Landstill-esque control? Sure prison is a form of control, but I saw a mode of control that wasn't based around locking the opponent out through proactive, tap-out on your turn global resource denial cards. However that truly reactive control I was familiar with in other formats spiritually did not exist in the metagame we had developed for ourselves.
If you envision EDH as a 1v3 format, its clear that you will never have enough resources to out 1v1 the rest of the group; that's why EDH pressures deck design to favor generating card advantage by playing X-for-1's to keep you on track against the rest of the group, and 1v1's are for the most part reserved for answering the card quality of opponents. Prison works great for this, but permission as a gameplan is a bit more tricky; but having played this format for so long I knew the cards were their to support it. When this new group I played with had a Talrand deck control deck I found interesting, I decided to try my hand at a strategy I hadn't ever seriously attempted at the level necessary to compete with the best of the best in our group: Draw-GO.
The first iterations of this list were mono blue, with Venser, Shaper Savant and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Talrand, Sky Summoner for generals. Permutations of the 1v1 S tier, Vendillion Clique archetypal deck but tuned for multiplayer. This tuning involved a core ramp element in order to compensate for the resources needed to leave up answers to atleast 2 players, which would then be replenished by the increase draw power it enables. It became clear however that the card pool available in mono blue wasn't cutting it for the gameplan that I envisioned. Nin, the Pain Artist was a consideration for a splash, as nin as a general offers a great systemic draw option and many strong utility cards that cover up blues weaknesses, but ultimately the ramp the deck was proving to need in testing still lacked.
Onto green, which offered all the ramp that could be asked for. In narrowing down a general, Kruphix, God of Horizons on the short-list of UG and UGX generals seemed to be at least be somewhat conducive to the Draw-GO strategy I was trying to put together. Most of the other option offered draw or some form of external control which was useful but pushed the deck construction in a direction I didn't care for. But combined with Kruphix's very own prophet who was among the first cards added upon switching to green, a synergy clicked and the rest of the construction sort of fell into place.
Here is a control deck that wins through politics, that wins through stopping the player farthest ahead and thus enabling the other players time to catch up and directing them towards the primary threat all while keeping the entire table in check. A deck designed to keep everyone honest. A true, competitive multiplayer draw-go deck whose end game is more than just a consequence of failing to win in the early/mid game.
1 Kruphix, God of Horizons
Artifacts (5):
1 Sol Ring
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Sapphire Medallion
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
Creatures (7):
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
2 Magus of the Library
2 Snapcaster Mage
5 Prophet of Kruphix
5 Seedborn Muse
7 Memnarch
Enchantments (6):
1 Burgeoning
1 Exploration
1 Mystic Remora
2 Sylvan Library
3 Rhystic Study
5 Treachery
Instants (35):
0 Pact of Negation
0 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
2 Negate
3 Beast Within
3 Dissolve
3 Exclude
3 Forbid
3 Harrow
3 Voidslime
3 Spell Contortion
4 Cryptic Command
4 Dismiss
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Plasm Capture
4 Rewind
5 Desertion
5 Jace's Ingenuity
6 Dragonlord's Prerogative
6 Overwhelming Intellect
6 Spelljack
6 Time Stop
8 Dig Through Time
0 Blue Sun's Zenith
0 Chord of Calling
0 Stroke of Genius
0 Academy Ruins
0 Breeding Pool
0 Command Tower
0 Flooded Grove
0 Flooded Strand
0 Hinterland Harbor
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Scrying Sheets
22 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
0 Terrain Generator
0 Tropical Island
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Yavimaya Coast
Planeswalker (1):
8 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sorceries (6):
1 Ancestral Vision
2 Into the North
2 Nature's Lore
2 Three Visits
7 All Is Dust
8 Treasure Cruise
Reformatted for viewing comprehension:
1 Kruphix, God of Horizons
Lands (39):
0 Academy Ruins (U)
0 Breeding Pool
0 Command Tower
0 Flooded Grove
0 Flooded Strand
0 Hinterland Harbor
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Scrying Sheets (D)
22 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
0 Terrain Generator (R)
0 Tropical Island
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Yavimaya Coast
Ramp (12):
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Burgeoning
1 Exploration
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Sol Ring
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Into the North
2 Magus of the Library (D)
2 Nature's Lore
2 Sapphire Medallion
2 Three Visits
3 Harrow
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Mystic Remora
2 Sylvan Library
3 Rhystic Study
4 Fact or Fiction
5 Jace's Ingenuity
6 Dragonlord's Prerogative
8 Dig Through Time
8 Treasure Cruise
0 Blue Sun's Zenith
0 Stroke of Genius
Permission (24)
0 Pact of Negation
0 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Mana Drain (R)
2 Mana Leak
2 Negate
3 Dissolve
3 Exclude
3 Forbid
3 Voidslime
3 Spell Contortion (D)
4 Cryptic Command (U)
4 Dismiss
4 Plasm Capture
4 Rewind
5 Desertion
6 Overwhelming Intellect (D)
6 Spelljack
6 Time Stop (U)
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Beast Within
5 Prophet of Kruphix
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Treachery
0 Chord of Calling
Wipes (5):
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
7 All Is Dust
8 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Win (1):
7 Memnarch
Featuring the most condensed and ridiculous win condition in any deck that I have ever built:
Swap Memnarch out when group allows it:
And his merry band of apocalyptic monsters:
And some gravy on top...
Battle for Zendikar coming soon...
Notes on the Deck:
- It appears that the deck's initial ramp strategy was poorly structured. It involves many cards that enable ramp without providing ramp themselves (Burgeoning, Exploration, Skyshroud Ranger, Sakura Tribe Scout) and few that provide their mana unconditionally in that they require access to green, a color that I am only splashing for.
- Spawnsire of Ulamog is spiritually the type of win condition this deck needs in that the card quality is so high that it beats an entire table with no other set up from other cards leaving me free to keep my deck full with other important archetypes of cards like ramp, permission, and draw. However, due to the official rules of edh not permitting sideboards this card technically does not function the way I need it. Yes there are alternate rules that permit sideboards and there is a provision in the rule set that allows this card to work based on prior agreement with the group, but I am not okay with having a win con that isn't 100% legitimate (IE I wouldnt be able to take it to a local or SCG/GP side). The compromise I am making is that I am going to continue playing with it in my group but will still be looking for alternate win cons that fit my need for slot density assurance of victory.
- In testing, late game this deck occasionally runs out of draw engines and stalls. This should be a matter of increasing the density that draw slots fill in this deck.
Change log:
Complicate - Overwhelming Intellect
Psionic Blast - Treachery
Ponder - Pulse of the Grid
5/25/2015:
Felwar Stone - Nature's Lore
Simic Signet - Explore
Snow Covered Island - Snow Covered Forest
Snow Covered Island - Wooded Foothills
Snow Covered Island - Academy Ruins
Skyshroud Ranger - Nevinyrral's Disk
5/29/2015:
Spawnsire of Ulamog - Memnarch
Pulse of the Grid - Forbid
Merchant Scroll - Plasm Capture
Twincast - Dragonlord's Prerogative
Explore - Three Visits
Wild Growth - Into the North
6/2/2015:
Evacuation - Seedborn Muse
Gather Specimens - Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Miscalculation - Disdainful Stroke
Watch for inclusion:
Spawnsire of Ulamog
Evacuation
Commandeer
Eternal Witness
Thran Dynamo
Reigns of Power
Opportunity
Consecrated Sphinx
Dream Fracture
Watch for Removal:
Memnarch
This is still very much a Beta list. Overarchingly, there is still alot of optimization to do based on the concentration of counters/lands/draw/ramp spells and engines and I'm sure there are plenty of cards that warrant consideration that I have not looked at yet. I will be updating this list as I tweak the deck, and anyone interested in joining in on some of my playgroups Cockatrice testing sessions feel free to PM me.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
---
Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Surely Xenagos.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
Anyway, you should probably put your list in deck tags. Also, don't hide it away in a spoiler. Someone comes in, they want to see your list and have it be quickly and readily readable.
---
Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Done and done.
Anyways, in terms of overall gameplan a weakness that has come up in testing has been the draw in the deck petering out after a period when some of the bigger engines are not drawn. Overwhelming Intellect was an option I was considering which also increases the concentration of cspells.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
Prime Speaker Zegana almost turns it on all by herself, and would draw at least 5 cards in that case.
---
Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
---
Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
So... that's obviously a crap ton of permission. If you don't mind the drawbacks of Arcane Denial, how about Dream Fracture? What's the value of exile on Dissipate and Faerie Trickery?
Even with as much permission as you have, you're not going to have mana up for every relevant threat. I could see a Stoneforge Mystic getting in under you and then you getting smacked around with a Sword of Feast and Famine or whatever else for days. Your ways of dealing with anything that resolves seem pretty limited - Cyclonic Rift, Beast Within, Oblivion Stone, Evacuation, All is Dust. And that's where I've always been tempted to add a third color for draw-go (my main attempt was Wydwen, the Biting Gale). Black would give you more instant-speed creature removal. White would give you more instant-speed creature, artifact, and enchantment removal. Even in green there's some more efficient options you could add - Naturalize comes to mind. But you probably have a better feel for how much you need then I do.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
@SH0opdAwoOp: Glad to hear! I've seen that Azusa list copied and derived from lots and lots of different players and threads since I put it up way back when and its nice that people still remember it. I have a current list kicking around, maybe when I have some time I'll update my old threads. Those decks however were very much the end product of a lot of testing, whereas this thread was posted probably two or so days after its conception so it will take a little bit to get it to that point.
To answer your question about exile, probably not as the bonus effects from 3+ counter feel like they need to be a bit more tangible than exile. Dream fracture is nice though. Regarding answers to permanents, you may be right but it certainly feels like this deck wants them to be X-1, not 1-1. A lot of the time this deck will just get into the mode of allowing cards it otherwise wouldn't to resolve only to wipe the board, and I very rarely find myself wanting something in between. More O-stone effects would be ideal yes, not sure where I would be getting them from atm though. Splashing black is something I was considering as black has so many powerhouse cards available to it, I just couldn't find a general that was significantly synergistic to my strategy in BUG. Its certainly something worth exploring though!
I also updated the thread with a changelog, In/out watchlists, and a notes section providing some insight into the things I'm considering as I tweak this deck's direction including the ramp suite/Spawnsire's legality as a wincon/density of draw. ATM my primary goal is re hauling the ramp suite.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
I've long been considering trying to build a Damia, Sage of Stone list that does something similar to what this list seems to be trying to do. There, the idea would be to run the most efficient counters and removal and make up for the fact that you're 1-for-1'ing people a lot by the fact that Damia is refilling your entire hand every turn, as long as you can protect her.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I disagree that Damia has synergy with this sort of deck. It has the word draw printed on it yes, but emptying your hand isn't something this deck ever really does, and tapping out for that effect seems like it would be bad. Damia is disincentivizing you to play your draw spells, and represents you as a systemic threat whereas we want to be primarily flying under the radar for as long as actually possible. This is also not to mention that it doesnt work when your hand is 7+ which is often come mid/late. I think black is strong yes, but the reason I'm not stumbling over myself to splash a third color is the same that I am only lightly splashing green in this deck: mono blue still has just about everything we want in this strategy; the second color was only brought in to shore up a few shortcomings blue still has.
Made some other larger changes to the deck, including putting in Nevinyrral's Disk and Academy Ruins to add another much needed board wipe and extremely potent consequential engine. Very, very happy with this change so far in testing. Also added the reformatted decklist for better viewing as well today and as an update, Memnarch is emerging as the primary contender for the 1 card win slot.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
Played a few games with the deck today and have some observations. I was using the most recent list from when we edited it a few days ago, when we put in rampant growth. I made two changes since then, - Rampant Growth + Into the North (same card but can find Sheets) and -Opportunity +Dragonlord's Prerogative (same card but doesnt target).
From playing today I think the deck has too few green sources still. I had to mulligan to 5 bc an otherwise good hand had no green lands to cast Exploration. What's the point of having green at all if we can't produce it early to cast our ramp? I already cut 1 more island for the last Fetch we weren't running bc that's free as it finds Trop. I think increasing the forest count is correct though, 3 or 4 maybe even more is correct. Casting Magus t2 is also very important and we need green to do it.
Second observation is the deck definitely stalls when it cant find a draw spell and chain them. Perhaps running Opportunity in addition to Prerogative is correct.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
5/29/2015:
Spawnsire of Ulamog - Memnarch
Pulse of the Grid - Forbid
Merchant Scroll - Plasm Capture
Twincast - Dragonlord's Prerogative
Explore - Three Visits
Wild Growth - Into the North
Memnarch is also officially in as the decks one card win condition. I will comment on some of the discussion in a longer post later on, but I'm seeing some good ideas that I like.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
When Kruphix is on the table and we can make Urban cost UG to cast the game is at a stage where we want better draw power than Urban. Sure, it's good, but not worth the sorcery speed drawback during regular stages of the game. When optimizing a deck don't think about dreamland scenarios, think about what kind of spells the deck really wants.
This deck wants:
Ramp that requires only a 2 or 1 mana investment, and optimally puts lands into play.
Instant speed interaction that gives what you paid for.
Board wipes.
Card draw, preferably in the form of engines that you invest for once and stick around or as instants that give a burst of cards.
An inevitable win condition.
Speaking of board wipes....Ugin? Seems great in this deck, pay 1 more for an All is Dust that consequentially stays behind as a threat we can protect.
Also, you're significantly undervaluing Urban Evolution and the potential it has to get you ahead.
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Current Commanders: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (coming soon) | [Primer] Sedris, the Traitor King | Maelstrom Wanderer | Najeela, the Blade Blossom | Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
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Retired Commanders: [Primer] Jenara, Asura of War | [Primer] Ghave, Guru of Spores | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury | Saskia the Unyielding | Sydri, Galvanic Genius
I too agree with Sam/DrawCards; Urban evolution isnt quite the effect we want to be tapping out for. Compare it to Jace's Ingenuity and you have a prime example of why context is the most important factor in evaluating the strength of cards in this deck. In most EDH decks, the sheer tempo of Urban Evolution is so obviously stronger than having the choice of instant speed, and the reason that usually is is because each card in their gameplane is designed to put themselves farther and farther ahead on the board in relation to the rest of the table. Here, our cards value comes from how they match the card quality of the best of the best of everyone else. Urban evolution takes away our choice... our advantage of always having all possible information before making a decision, which is a terrible trade off as the extra land drop isnt accelerating you into your win conditions, because this deck only has one in the late, late game.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)
Is there any reason not to run Krosan Grip ?
Some great suggestions coming in from the thread and making a difference in the overall list!
@Krosan Grip: Seems alright before you consider how narrow it is in the scheme of all the situations we would want a 1 for 1 spot removal to answer resolved threats. This is why Beast Within is in the deck; we need these effects to be virtual vindicates if they are ever to have a place in the deck.
EDH:
[Competitive] Azusa, Lost but Seeking (54 Lands)
[Competitive] Azami, Lady of Scrolls (Time Warp combo/control)
[Competitive] Kruphix, God of No (True EDH DrawGo)