I've recently retooled the deck as Jenara, Asura of War and more of an enter the battlefield theme. I had constant problems with this deck. It wants to go fast but Rafiq always gets countered, removed, or chump blocked. I haven't tried the mana dork route but for my meta anyway I need a deck that has a better late game. Losing all my dorks to a wrath doesn't sound appealing. I'm having a hard time deciding if I want to stick with Jenara or go back to Rafiq.
How are you liking Sublime Archangel and Archangel of Thune? Sublime seems obvious but Thune seems kind of random unless its just for the life.
Edric, Spymaster of Trest definitely synergises with an attacking themed deck but I just feel the cards it gives your opponents might be too much. It sounds like it is working for you though!
Yeah opposition seems awesome in theory, so far its been mediocre tho. We don't run quite enough creatures to fully take advantage of it (cough tokens cough), but it serves its purpose. Thassa is someone I need to add. I am actually going to cut sublime archangel as she just turns into a large beater with no abilities for 4 mana...she's not quite the threat I want to be tapping out for. The idea behind archangel of thune is that with all the leftover mana dorks, we can turn them into threats and go wide - plus the lifegain is extremely vital. Im finding, like you, I get a lot of hate playing rafiq and lifegain keeps me afloat in the mid to late game. But thune is in testing, I've only gotten to cast her once and she was destroyed on site =/.
Yeah, edric is great! Again, his greatest strength IMO is in politics and can help take the hate load off you and rafiq.
That's really sad you've scratched rafiq :(. Most bant players end up going the route you did; into ETB goodstuff with jenara, asura of war or durdely broken stax with derevi, empirical tactician. There are not many of us Rafiqers left in the narrowing world of EDH anymore (outside of the casual exalted themed decks). I would recommend giving rafiq another try. I think he is extremely hard to master but very rewarding. He demands heavy politicking with his power- the best play isn't always a t3 or 4 rafiq. you might be right on the unblockable subtheme. I personally never cast rafiq unless I have counter mana up or don't mind losing him because I have another threat I will throw down after he eats removal (like consecrated sphinx or a jace, the mind sculptor waiting for the board to be cleared).
All stars for me have been the hate bears, namely containment priest. Holy crap she is sooo good in my meta filled to the brim with meren and jund decks and a really solid kalia list.
So I have been wanting to come back to Rafiq. My Jenara list runs similar to a hybrid of my Animar and Ghave lists and I like all my decks to be different. I want to come back to Voltron but from what I've read and seen voltron just isn't that competitive. You are relying on one or a few creatures to connect with combat damage over a series of turns to win. It just seems so easy to get locked down.
I love the idea of playing all the swords and cool auras and combining with cards like Puresteel Paladin, Sigarda's Aid, and Leonin Shikari and then just beating the crap out of people. The truth is though its a lot easier and more effective to just combo out in Animar or Ghave and then swing with infinite +1/+1 counters.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Hey again! I'm glad you are wanting to come back to rafiq. I've literally combed thru every possible competitive list on tappedout, mtgsalvation, Reddit, and through edhrec. I still find that my build tends to be more unique. Most people think rafiq can only be played voltron (heaven forbid with exalted nonsense).
In test playing the mana dorks, they are pretty good. It really depends on your meta. Mine is crawling with wraths (my friend runs 8 in his jenara deck) and therefore the dorks have been so-so. I will probably cut down on one of the generic green producing ones in favor of a rock or lotus cobra.
Tbh if you just want an aggro deck to beat the crap out of people with, I'd suggest Boros or sigarda. Imo it's hard to stay on that theme in 3 colors. Even mono white could be half decent with 8.5 tails. If you want to go rafiq, I think the draw is the draw (hah), being able to play aggressive but hold up counters (think delver type decks), and more resiliency (though not as much as jenara or derevi).
In terms of when I do bash face, my favorite times have been with medomai the ageless, finest hour, time warp, and/or sovereigns of lost alara. It's always fun when you can do it twice! And safer since you don't have to kill someone and then be left wide open. Killing two people before someone else's turn is much preferred
Also, on the note of looking up tons of deck lists, I'd be really curious to get Swifts opinion (I don't know how to summon him). Especially with new cards like new Thalia, eldritch evolution(!!), spell queller, new tamiyo, and possibly sigarda' said (tho I'm not sold on it)
You run so few removal spells, how are you pushing through? Do you rely on others to clear out the board? My main problems have either been Rafiq getting removed over and over when he attacks or in response to equips or him just getting chump blocked. At the end of the day he's a 3/3 with no evasion or protection.
A buddy of mine actually runs a very voltron themed version of the deck and he just suits Rafiq up until he has 10+ power and starts one shotting people with trample and deathtouch etc. I'm not sure why it works for him and not for me, I feel like I get more hate in general from opponents. I want to figure out a way to make this deck work. I might build another equipment themed deck in addition to it.
It really depends on the situation. If I have a turn 3 rafiq or a t4 one with boots, I go for it. If I feel a wrath coming on, I wait. that's the thing with the deck: It's pretty flexible. It's bant after all, and with the slight midrange feel the deck has, it has a pretty easy time adapting and reacting.
It sounds like you feel that the deck is lacking win cons and ways to get through. I run light removal because of the draw power. The deck really wants to set up an engine and then go from there. You don't want to overcommit to the board and then get wrathed, leaving you with an empty hand and no gas. So what if you got in 8-10 general damage, like you said, he can have a hard time getting through on his own
I have had much success with the swords, the protection x and y make him pseudo unblockable. But don't forget, ONE of the win cons if rafiq, not THE win con. This is not voltron.
Ya sovereigns is decent at the surprise kill. The package is cuttable though, my playgroup has less instant speed spot removal and more board wipes. I'd say my win cons are 1) time warp effects, 2) swords + dudes and/or rafiq (or general damage), 3) cyclonic rift, 4) finest hour or sovereigns. The 4th is the most unreliable and probably the first to go. Finest hour has been so-so in testing, it's better in theory. But the reality is just as you said, it doesn't help your dudes get through. I might cut it for new tamiyo for testing.
Thassa has been so-so for me and expendable. She really ends up being a 3 mana enchantment that can give dudes unblockable for 2. It nonbos with sword of fire and ice and lightning greaves which is the biggest issue. She is my cut for eldritch evolution.
If you are worried about blockers, my next 2 answers would be trailblazer boots and rancor. Both seem that they could be decent and are not mana intensive. I really try to hold up a counterspell if I am playing rafiq. My deck is trying to be more like Edric or derevi and less like Uril or sigarda. I couldn't do what your buddy does- rafiq never goes under the radar and is allowed to suit up like that. Id rather keep the cards flowin' mayne
PS, sigardas aid is so close...I wish it allowed cantrips like puresteel :/
Original post has a list of one-shots with Rafiq. Might of Oaks should be listed too. I Mystical Tutor for it all the time ftw. Revenge of the Hunted and Berserk are almost right there too but need a little help.
Seems like an active thread so I'll post my decklist. It's mostly tuned for 1 vs 1 OR 3 player games on MTGO and I've been absolutely crushing with it since I converted over from Roon. I was winning about 75% with Roon. Rafiq is more like 85%. There are some changes I'd make for 4-5 person multi-player but this is pretty close to what I consider ideal for my play style which is lots of acceleration, low cmc, and lean instants to interact with the stack.
There are some slots I consider "flex" (Thassa, Deep Analysis, Revenge of the Hunted, Austere Command..) Eventually I'll use those slots to test out stuff like Bear Umbra, Sigarda, Stonehewer.. Also I see Medomai in lots of lists and Blighted Agent in just a few. That's a real head scratcher for me. I always win with either commander damage, infect, eldrazi conscription on a dork, or resource denial with Constable. Also Bant Charm has pretty much sucked. I would consider Finest Hour for multiplayer, but I dunno any Time Walk spell seems better to me. Also I don't think 20-ish creatures is enough to really utilize Edric or Birthing Pod which I know are popular. Tutoring up Skullclamp or Cold-Eyed Selkie to draw seems better to me. I guess Pod is fine if you're running bant etb staples but that's too grindy imo. I'm looking to just punch out my opponents ASAP. Why spend 4 mana to pod Sage into Venser when I could be dropping swords and signets and passing turn with open mana?
I avoid prison/tax stuff like Stoic Angel and Silent Arbiter. I kill faster than anyone I'm matched against so I don't mind taking beats. I also don't like all the "exalted" bears I see in some lists. I have better stuff to do with my mana, like equip swords to Rafiq/Selkie/Agent/Constable and leave counter magic mana up.
Hey again! I'm glad you are wanting to come back to rafiq. I've literally combed thru every possible competitive list on tappedout, mtgsalvation, Reddit, and through edhrec. I still find that my build tends to be more unique. Most people think rafiq can only be played voltron (heaven forbid with exalted nonsense).
In test playing the mana dorks, they are pretty good. It really depends on your meta. Mine is crawling with wraths (my friend runs 8 in his jenara deck) and therefore the dorks have been so-so. I will probably cut down on one of the generic green producing ones in favor of a rock or lotus cobra.
Tbh if you just want an aggro deck to beat the crap out of people with, I'd suggest Boros or sigarda. Imo it's hard to stay on that theme in 3 colors. Even mono white could be half decent with 8.5 tails. If you want to go rafiq, I think the draw is the draw (hah), being able to play aggressive but hold up counters (think delver type decks), and more resiliency (though not as much as jenara or derevi).
In terms of when I do bash face, my favorite times have been with medomai the ageless, finest hour, time warp, and/or sovereigns of lost alara. It's always fun when you can do it twice! And safer since you don't have to kill someone and then be left wide open. Killing two people before someone else's turn is much preferred
Also, on the note of looking up tons of deck lists, I'd be really curious to get Swifts opinion (I don't know how to summon him). Especially with new cards like new Thalia, eldritch evolution(!!), spell queller, new tamiyo, and possibly sigarda' said (tho I'm not sold on it)
Never fear, I am here! Eldritch Evolution is really good. New Thalia's performance is dependent on how many nonbasics your opponents run, the more they have the merrier she is. Sigarda's Aid is very good; the idea is to break Sigarda's Aid. This is best done within a Derevi shell. Now I must digress. The difference between non-Derevi Bant lists and the Goddess of Bant herself, Derevi, can be summed up in one word: efficiency. Derevi is super-efficient. Her openings can trim multiple turns off any start. Therefore in the interest of efficiency, I recommend taking any general within the Bant shard and shoving it inside a Derevi shell. This includes the loveable Rafiq. Rafiq in a Derevi shell would be fun. Things like Finest Hour and Sovereigns which were slow and painful in Rafiq become realistic T3 options in Derevi. The problem with Swords/equipment was them taking too much mana to cast and equip in the early game, giving opponents a full turn to react before reaping returns. Sigarda's Aid fixes that. Derevi just offers more. New Tamiyo is bad, Spell Queller is meh. If interested I'd be willing to explore a Rafiq build within a Derevi shell here.
I'd like to see your take too. You are absolutely right- derevi is better in 90% of the ways. However, being the stubborn, OG that I am, I'm stuck to rafiq as he was my first love 5-6 years ago when I started this game. I also can't stand derevi and I don't think my play group would allow it (my meta is less cutthroat for sure).
I think rafiq is equal to or even beats derevi in packing a punch, voltron damage, and combat focused abilities like swords, medomai, and cold eye selkie. I don't like to play him all in voltron but it absolutely has to be considered as a plan b to reach his max potential.
You really think sigarda's aid is good enough to make the cut even if we are only running 4-6 equipments? I'm still skeptical but I can see its explosive potential. If it can get rafiq swinging with a sword a turn sooner that could be back breaking.
It's too bad people still misread rafiqs threat level. Don't get me wrong he's a decent mid-low tier 2, but because of PTSD and muscle memory, I still find people hating him first when there are much more threatening generals around
Edit: I've also noticed that rafiq really lacks a late game finish. He gets destroyed by chump blockers in the mid game if he's not unblockable (artifact creatures or fliers, I even have had someone instant speed donate a forbidden orchid token to block :() and late game he lacks power. I feel you 3-4 years ago swift in the fact that he needs some sort of combo late game to wrap things up when the board gets out of control. I'm hesitant to add the reveilark combo because mirror entity doesn't do much on its own. Eldritch evolution is making me want to play another 4 drop so I can go into medomai, Sphinx, or sun Titan. I might add deadeye back in
I think Mirror Entity could put in some good work with Blighted Agent, Constable, and Selkie. Maybe.
When you see a lockdown commander like Derevi, Grand Arbiter, Oloro.. they aren't better if everyone at the table knows to kill them first before they get their bull***** online. This is what Berserk, Might of Oaks, infect is for. Kill FAST, and communicate to everyone else exactly what your intentions are.
1.5/2 tier commanders are not worse than tier 1 commanders if everybody at the table always understands that you ALWAYS kill tier 1 commanders FIRST. How we are this many years into the distilling of this format and this isn't an absolute, understood, unspoken, automatic reality is baffling to me.
As for late game finish, it's relatively easy to one-shot right out of the command zone isn't it? Or same-turn infect kill? I do it all the time. True running out of gas is common for voltron. I've kept Deep Analysis in the deck and am considering putting back in Harmonize. Can't always rely on just Skullclamp and Selkie in bigger grindier games. I haven't played with Hunter's Insight. Seems so situational. If I have a high powered face smasher on board, I don't need to burn mana on cards that turn, I need instant finishers or protection up.
ctucker999: That is precisely why I abandoned Rafiq. He lacked a quality, efficient finish. The decks I was playing against were all at least 1 turn faster and running 2 card-combos as oppossed to my 3. That's just too high of a mountain to climb and I had to try something different.
I'll start putting together a Rafiq in a Derevi shell over the weekend. I have a general idea of how I want to build it: speedy start into a hard hitting buffed alpha surrounded by hatebears, taxers, tutors, and engines.
ctucker999: That is precisely why I abandoned Rafiq. He lacked a quality, efficient finish. The decks I was playing against were all at least 1 turn faster and running 2 card-combos as oppossed to my 3. That's just too high of a mountain to climb and I had to try something different.
I'll start putting together a Rafiq in a Derevi shell over the weekend. I have a general idea of how I want to build it: speedy start into a hard hitting buffed alpha surrounded by hatebears, taxers, tutors, and engines.
You thinking Voltron as the win con? I'm starting to lean towards hate bears too. The only advantage that he has over derevi (even if very slight) is he can pump out loads of damage in the early/mid stages (which of course paints the target on your head).
I'm excited to see what we can come up with. I don't think rafiq has reached his ceiling with the current meta and he hasn't truly been competitively explored in a year or two (from what I've seen- and I've seen almost every serious deck list on him). He will always be outclassed by derevi but that doesn't mean he can't be threatening in his own right and have unique cards to derevi that play to his stengths.
Mcscoop: in theory, in a vacuum you are correct. However in my experience, that's not always how edh plays out. The political and psychological aspect of personalities plays a huge factor. In my experience, it's the louder/winnier players who don't get attacked or targeted in a casual format like edh, even if they are commanding a broken commander. They will whine about how their deck isn't as good, or convince others why your deck is so much more powerful. Of course this is different if you are playing in tournament pods but my point being that edh is just not that black and white.
I'm excited to see what we can come up with. I don't think rafiq has reached his ceiling with the current meta and he hasn't truly been competitively explored in a year or two (from what I've seen- and I've seen almost every serious deck list on him). He will always be outclassed by derevi but that doesn't mean he can't be threatening in his own right and have unique cards to derevi that play to his stengths.
Especially since the tuck rule change I would have thought we'd see a resurgence in voltron.
Since I usually only play 2 or 3 player games I haven't experienced running out of gas as much but I do see it as an issue.
I accelerate with dorks, fetch socery and signets followed by casting one-shot pumps that do often leave my hand empty. Aside from hate and general power creep of other commanders, are we acknowledging card disadvantage as a primary flaw? It seems to me that plenty of filter spells and tutoring digs us what we need to finish, be it be a Mystical Tutor into Triumph of the Hoards or Open the Armory into Grafted Exoskeleton...
If aggro pukes their hand out then casts Wheel, should we be looking at Time Spiral and other options for gas before abandoning the archetype? When we start talking about Edric and Birthing Pod and Opposition, feels like we might as well change the title of this thread to Roon.
I really like where you are going here. Thanks for sticking your neck out and taking the time to build this even if it's just a rough draft.
I'm starting to see the effectiveness of the stax. You have some interesting choices here I want to comment on / pick your brain about. Unfortunately I'm typing on my phone so it's tricky. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have internet in my new apartment haha.
You also only have 99 cards since its counting rafiq in the 99 I think. Is your missing card sigardas aid?
RE: rafiq in derevi shell take 1: I did probably around 50 goldfishes
what I liked:
1. I really liked the idea of the hatebears, especially the thalias. I can see them putting in some work.
2. the overall ramp package. There's a couple I'm not sure about that I'll address later. I noticed that most of it was copied from your OG list from 2012-13. [[Shaman of forgotten ways]] is a cool addition that i will test out for sure. Haven't considered him in the past, but he allows for explosive plays the next turn with rafiq + potential mana left over for a counterspell or equip cost. I will also be acquiring a [[gemstone caverns]] for my build as well.
3. [[winter orb]]. Yup, no explaination needed. Perfectly gels with our staxy bears package.
4. the [[sovereigns of lost alara]] package: [[patter of rebirth]], as i previously mentioned is the key here. I love it. Even [[bear umbra]] is extremely synergetic, although 90% of the time it wouldn't be what I'd go for first (I noticed you cut it in the 2nd edition and I'm ok with that, might be more cute in theory than reality).
what I was meh on:
1. 31 lands- 2 that cant be used T1 to play most of your stuff (mishra's factory and cradle). Seems a bit too low. In playtesting it did ok with aggressive mulling but I still feel uneasy about it. [[alchemist's refuse]] im not sold on either, might be too cute. The rest are solid, although I might add 1 of each basic for PtE or blood moon type stuff.
2. The 0 ramp artifacts are OP, but I'm not sure about all of them in this type of build. I'm most specifically worried about [[mox diamond]] with a deck with such few lands. Could lead to awkward t2-3 plays with potential land drop misses. [[Chrome mox]] is great, and [[lotus petal]] is so-so but I understand its inclusion. If only we had enough artifacts for [[mox opal]] instead.
3. [[argentum armor]]. With only 1 way to cheat it into play with a creature that requires tapping, seems too cute. I did however get a play where I had [[lotus cobra]] with an active [[stonehewer giant]] and [[birthing pod]]. Stuck the armor on the cobra, then dumped giant for sovereigns w/ birthing pod and got conscriptions on cobra. Good times barring no removal lol.
4. [[idyllic tutor]], not really enough solid tutor targets IMO. Survival is there if you choose to add the combo tho.
5. Im curious about [[emeria shepherd]]. Have you playtested her in derevi before? She has been one of those cards that looks better than she played in my boros deck. However, bant is oozing with value (and fetches) so she could work here.
6. Where is the removal? It scares me that there is a lack of board wipe and spot removal here. [[swords to plowshares]] and maybe [[supreme verdict]] would be nice to have.
RE: rafiq in derevi shell 2
TBH I don't know if I like this build as much. It feels like you went even more into the derevi side of things and got harder into the stax. A lot of the tax inducers are too unilateral for me ([[lodestone golem]], [[tangle wire]], and even [[static orb]] which I realize was in last build too.) Derevi can easily take advantage of these types of cards but Rafiq doesn't have that luxury. I do like the creature based ones outside of golem b/c they can keep swinging and keep the pressure on.
New things I liked:
- [[Inquisitor's Flail]] (could be cool in a low creature meta. Double double strike? lol).
What I didn't like:
-The tango lands. In a build that wants to come out of the gates this quickly, I don't think they warrant a spot. I tried them out for about 6 months and they even felt a bit too slow in my slower rafiq build.
-[[Sunscape Familiar]]. In a 3 color deck with such a low curve, I don't see this putting in much work. However, I do see it's warranted inclusion w/ the heavy tax element, but still, idk it just feels meh.
-[[captain sisay]] i'm a bit meh on too. Not a ton of ways to abuse her, and seems like she would only be fetching taxers until she can land elesh norn. She has targets but none that are essential to winning after she lands on t2-3 and takes a turn to work.
-[[Phyrexian Hydra]]. Looks like a filler for a potential experient spot? It has good P/T stats at the CMC, but I'm worried that it'll just sit there w/ lack of any built in evasion. Plus it costs 5 w/ no ETB. As far as racking up poison, I think [[putrefax]] and [[grated exoskeleton]] are fine.
So going forwards, in terms of additions, I'd like to see:
1. a Jin gitaxias reanimator package. If we are already playing [[pattern of rebirth]], I think we are half way there. Inclusion of [[karmic guide]] or [[body double]] (k guide if you are worried about edicts, b. doub if your opponents are playing reanimator decks) makes a nice survival chain to play.
2. increasing the land count by 1-3.
3. [[strip mine]] and [[wasteland]]. Work great with our mini tax theme as well as an early [[eldritch evolution]] fetching [[sun titan]] to lock someone out of the game while we beat.
4. I personally like [[medomai the ageless]] although I understand warranting the exclusion. Extremely high risk/reward but like [[putrefax]], ends the game if you swing with it and rafiq out. Plus fetchable with [[fierce empath]].
5. possibly [[Reveillark]]. Helps us rebuild our tax plan, utility dudes like stoneforge, or ramp dudes. Just a great spot in the [[birthing pod]] chain for a plan b.
6. [[steelshaper's gift]]. t1 this w/ our rocks can lead to boot wearing rafiq t3.
7. Does GSZ warrant an inclusion?
8. signets could be nice with all the mana rocks in our mana hungry 3 color deck. I've had a handfull of draws where we get some combination of [[mana vault]]/[[sol ring]]/[[mana crypt]] and no way to play the good things in our hand or start going to town with rafiq.
9. combat value creatures, namely [[cold-eyed selkie]] and maybe thada adel. We got equipment and a double strike machine.
After writing out these additions, I see that I'm slowly reverting back to my build, so I don't want all of these inclusions b/c they obviously slow us down. But I think 3 or 4 of these additions could help smooth things out. Let me know what you think or about some of your ideas with the more "controversial" card choices you had.
It was so nice to find feedback =) Take 1: I agree with you on Idyllic Tutor, Argentum, Mishra's Workshop, and Alchemist's Refuge. They did not perform well after goldfishing a bunch. With our low land count colored mana is at a premium, so I cut the Workshop and Refuge. The armor was an eyesore in any type of hand, even with all the acceleration we carry. Idyllic was too slow. The general rule of thumb I've used for land count is lands + ramp package ~50 unless we are a landfall or lands deck. On the issue of removal, my philosophy is to use stax elements as control to both protect our board and neutralize my opponents' long enough to kill them off. Paralying an opponent's board is the same as nuking it. My winrate with a solid removal package with light hatebears and stax elements per old Rafiq versus a light removal package and heavier mana suppressive elements with taxers and hatebears per Derevi is like night and day. I think you may be over-valuing removal. The start is one of the most important aspects of a game. A good start allows you to dictate how the game is going to be played. The card disadvantage accelerators play a large part in that; getting a T1 taxer or draw engine online is awesome. Emeria Shepherd is a bomb. I tested her in my landfall version and everytime I played her after a wipe I could rebuild more than half my board within a single turn. Canopy Vista is in for her. I want more than 5 plains. I spent about 2 hours goldfishing take 1 and decided to change some things like I mentioned above. I cut the Shaman, Sword of War and Peace, Bear Umbra, Static Orb, Cavern of Souls, Academy Ruins, Body Double, Qasali Pridemage, Fierce Empath, Shaman, Oracle.
Take 2: As I remarked above I was not happy with the lack of focus in Take 1. The cards which I thought were durdlers all got pulled: more control elements in the form of taxers got put in, filter elements to improve the card quality we see were introduced, and I added the Hydra for board control. I don't see the taxers as unilatereal; as long as we have a fast start the taxers become negligible. In addition as we are mostly creature-based control and have a second main-phase to put in an extra round of spells after untapping stuff from combat - we will play more spells than our opponents. Cards like Sunscape Familiar and GAIV are invaluable with those taxers and get us closer to Finest Hour/C Sphinx, etc. I completely forgot Medomai existed. I'll have to go pick up a copy. She can do some good work with Rafiq and Finest Hour, and is an overall better fit than the hydra. I'll edit her into take 2. Strip Mine and Wasteland are too slow and we need the colored mana, as well as the additional mana for board development. Jin and Loyal Retainers is more suited towards an aggressive stax build. I played them for a while before deciding their slots were better spent on cards with more immediate impact in my Derevi tempo. The type of cards I love are efficient and either accelerate us towards our win-condition or stop opponents from getting there. I love engine-type cards like Survival, Tezzeret, Captain Sisay, and Birthing Pod. As well as draw engines like Sylvan, Mystic Remora, Rhystic Study, and C Sphinx. You can often ride them to victory over the roadbumps your opponents put in your path. I think I need to get some actual games in to see where the deck is weak or where it fails to decide what direction to take it next for take 3.
This thread is an abomination to the archetype.
I'm off to build Oloro into infect voltron. Unsubscribe.
Lol, well my meta is anything goes. We have a good time regardless of how cut-throat our decks are. I found you can build Rafiq up to a certain point and then you hit a ceiling. It's very evident when you are playing against Zur and BUG: ultra-efficient combos, answers, and win conditions. Most strategies, including voltron infect, will not be competitive in such a meta. You need to run ways to slow down opponents. I guess you could say my deckbuilding and ideas are not suitable for every group, but I like to think in building for worst-case scenarios I am building the best deck possible
Hm I see. I may be overvaluing removal, i think i'm just scarred from my friends kaalia deck haha. I understand that your meta is more competitive than that tho. Your experience with emeria shepherd is encouraging- i will definitely have to give her a shot. I'm still not completely sold on some of the taxers, namely lodestone golem as I rather have a noncreature tax since our creature count is ~30 vs. our artifact count is <20. I also take back what I said about Sisay, you're right she's awesome here. She can tutor a chain of double thalias, GAAIV, for mega stax, plus finishers in elesh norn. Good call. Makes me want to add Jitte for another silver bullet.
Here is where I'm at now, call it Rafiq in a derevi shell take 2.5 haha. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rafiq-in-derevi-shell/. Note that mana drain was cut for pact of negation as I don't have access to drain. Here are my thoughts on potential replacements/upgrades:
Wood elves: Feels a little too slow here and nonbos w/ winter orb. I don't know why but every goldfish I got wood elves I also had winter orb. What other ramp options do we have at 2 or less? The only that I can think of are llanowar elves/crew, mox diamond (which I'm still not 100% sold on and don't own a copy anyways), sylvan ranger/coiling oracle (yuck). I wasn't too fond of weathered wayfarer, even though I understand its a great card. It just felt slow and clunky and shaped my first couple turns too much. I've never actually used it IRL tho, I could be playing it wrong.
Shaman of forgotten ways: I'm hit or miss on him. I want to keep him because of the potential of a t3 sovereigns or medomai. He's a bit awkard on the curve with the swords tho.
Reveilark: Is a great card, but is it too slow here? Feels more "defense" than offense, and we aren't running the combo so its wrath deterrent or for b-pod chain, which I'm finding myself using less and less.
Fierce Empath: Do we have enough tutors for our big creatures? I'd actually rather wood elves take its spot (and get a lower CMC ramp card) or trinket mage
Cold-eyed selkie: Cuttable but I still really like it
Possible adds: I'd love to hear your opinions on these.
Trinket mage: finds ramp, clamp, or top
karmic guide: over body double. Double is probably better tho, but if we cut lark then we only have stonehewer giant as our only true 5 cmc critter for pod chain. However, if I'm going this route, is loyal retainers just better all the way?
linvala: I haven't seen you mention her yet, do you think she's a worthy inclusion?
containment priest: meta call. Shuts down a ton of decks (mostly the nonblue ones unfortunately)
Another cheap draw spell: I know brainstorm is good but I haven't had much success with it in EDH unless I have a fetch too.
Signets: Not the full set, just 1 or 2
Loxodon gatekeeper: I've always liked this card, probably just way too slow though at 4 mana.
Grand abolisher: worth a slot? I feel so vulnerable tapping out for sovereigns or getting a big boy out there w/o some form of protection since we are only running 2-3 counterspells
Bane of Progress: is he really worth it? Obviously a great tutor target but I'm hesitant as we are very reliant on our artifacts to win (for stax or aggro). Maybe just a meta call.
Fauna shaman: could be nice
Yisan: No ways to abuse him w/o derevi but we do have great chains.
Wargate: can find stax pieces at 5 mana but probably too slow for this build. I do have a foil version however, so it is extra motivation to add it
PS selfless spirit: could be good in a wrath heavy meta, although it doesn't dodge cyclonic rift or toxic deluge very well. Jeweled Amulet is something I might try over a signet, I've heard good things about it.
PSS I think new Tamiyo might be worth a test in this specific, rafiq build. Allows for more staxyness (on only one player admittedly) or more juice flowing as we swing with our bears.
Kaalia can be pretty scary, but Derevi matches up pretty well against her. Tapping Kaalia with Derevi will buy you one turn. If you have a sac outlet, more.
Wood Elves and Weathered Wayfarer help our low land count. Gyre Sage is an option I liked; when you play him T2 and Derevi T3 you can tap him for GG. Cards which produce more than what they cost are another category of favorites. Coalition Relic is another excellent option since it can generate multiple colored mana. Druids' Repository was another card I liked. Gilded Lotus too. Shaman's summoning sickness is annoying I didn't like seeing him early. Reveillark is a dead card too often. Fierce Empath is ok, Selkie is worse than Edric imo. Trinket Mage is good. Karmic Guide, too slow. Body Double is superior. Linvala is a meta call. Sage of Epityr is a superb filter card. A T0 Gemstone Caverns into Brainstorm is very handy. The Sage has done fantastic. It does: board presence early, filtering, and acceleration w Derevi combat trigger. Signets I'm not big on, a 2cmc spell to make 1cmc doesn't offer enough acceleration to suit my tastes. Loxodon Gatekeeper is decent but costly. Grand Abolisher doesn't offer enough board impact to make it worth a slot. A better option would be Voidmage Prodigy, and even then you could argue it is a bit slow. Bane of Progress is for if you are very far behind, like multiple opponents had fantastic openings, you need to reset asap. Fauna Shaman is good but slightly slow. With both Survival and Fauna I would add Masked Admirers to create an engine, and maybe even the Jin + Loyal Retainers. Yisan is slow to get going, but good. Engines are good. Wargate is pretty nice. Usually I get Cradle or Mystic Remora with it early. The problem is there just aren't enough slots to do everything we want to do.
You guys play in much more competitive meta's than me. I have the following questions:
Is the derevi shell rafiq the most competitive version of rafiq?
Is derevi more competitive than rafiq?
If derevi is the better commander then I don't see the point in trying to push rafiq. I feel like you will still have the same problems: having to deal 10 infect or 21 commander damage to 3 opponents before someone combos out or does your job better.
I also don't see any extra turns spells in your lists which for me have been the most reliable ways to win a game. I've never played a stax style deck so maybe I don't see the power that will let you beat people down while they can only untap a land per turn or have to pay more for their spells.
Swift: Ya for sure, derevi seems way better in that matchup. TBH, the more I play this deck, the more useful I see derevi and how much stronger she is than rafiq. Rafiq is still my first love tho and my tinker project so Im gonna keep up with him. With all our stax, I think I'd rather have a llanowar elf than wood elves, allows us for a faster start. Gyre sage is a great idea. Relic is probably an easy replacement over shaman.
I quad goldfished (is that even a thing?) this deck against my friends kaalia, a good scion list I found on tappedout (non hermit druid combo), and random 4th decks. I was having difficulty staying a float everytime. I could get out a staxer between thorn, GAAIV, thalias most games but I wasn't fast enough to land lethal before they established board position. Kaalia was especially brutal, especially with no pro white sword. He has a very good build imo, possibly "the best" MP list I've seen to date.
I had 2 games today on untap, went 2-0. Had subbed out wood elves for llanowar elves and fierce empath for opposition, never drew either. Although I won both games, they were against mostly mediocore decks. G1 against a timmyish Kruphix god deck and a netdecked? silver queen. The silver queen guy was kinda a noob and rage quit after t4 b/c he was arguing with us that reflecting pool could tap for red when he only had G&U available. Also tried to maze my rafiq with boots lol. Was able to beat kruphix before he got out of hand with a rafiq equipped with SoFaF. G2 was more interesting, pod of mono b mikeaus (stax i think) which was a good deck, mono b meren, mizzix, and rafiq. Mizzix looked like pre con, mike was good, and meren didnt do anything. I started out with a t3 medomai after a t2 cobra, ancient tomb, and fetch. Had top too. t4 played finest hour. I didnt have any protection with medomai, went with it anyways, he got rebounded by mizzix. From there Mike played contamination and controlled the game for awhile. I was stuck with colored sources from land drops I could find with cobra. Meren plays Ob Nix unshackled, I gilded drake it, and play survival and get stoneforge+boots (mana from a fetch). Mike plays damnation, I'm screwed at this point but have finest hour and survival, just need to blow up contamination. Mike then scoops cuz he g2g, I proceed to recast medomai with boots and finest hour out, killing them both over the next 2 turns.
Both games felt a bit close for such a powerful deck not matching up against t1 decks. However, important to note that I was always the target each of these games, and I'm sure in a 4 man pod in your meta with zur, jelava doomsday, etc, that wouldnt have been the case.
Moving forwards, the staxers felt underwhelming, but that's also bc I played against either noncompetitive decks, or creature based ones. I'll stick with them. A stronger equipment suit could be useful (sword of light and shadow OR war and peace) + sigarda's aid and possibly puresteel paladin as a mini engine. Boots is just soooo good in our build cuz everyone wants our stuff dead.
How do you feel about fiend hunter? It would be really nice to have emergency creature removal + get sword bashes too.
Moving forwards, I'll do:
wood elves -> llanowar elves
fierce empath -> another llanowar elves dude (or wargate if we are going more equip route)
grand abolisher -> swords to plowshares
cold eye selkie -> sage of epityr or brainstorm (or sigarada's aid if going that route)
reveilark -> steelshaper's gift.
shaman of forgotten ways -> gyre sage
??? -> supreme verdict/hallowed burial?
w/ the addition of gyre sage and llanowar elves, a couple filter lands might be nice (wooded bastion and flooded grove).
patryn: Yo! You're back haha.
1. That's what we are trying to do- experiment and see if a stax shell is rafiq's most competitive option. Rafiq hasn't been explored too much since the no tuck rule and really, over the past couple years (since derevi captured everyone's attention). Feel free to join our testing, we could always use another brain to help brew!
2. Derevi is absolutely more competitive than rafiq, no question. She also poses a bigger threat at more competitive tables however. She is much stronger in archenemy style games and at defense. She's also a mini sword of feast and famine that's recastable from the command zone w/ flash and no commander tax. No clue what wizards was thinking there...
3. I like rafiq b/c he's an OG and he can win out of nowhere. He's just as explosive, if not more explosive in his own, more linear way. Rafiq is a wincon in himself, whereas derevi sets up win cons. Rafiq is Shaq and derevi is....well...steph curry ha.
4. Time warp and friends are very good - dont get us wrong. I dont think time warp fits into the staxbear version. It is very difficult to cast at 5 mana with taxers out, plus if we are ramping into it t3 or 4 its a glorified explore. Time warp is better in a midrange build of rafiq, or with more ways to abuse it and bring it back from the gy with blink effects.
Patryn: You meet up with stax style decks at higher levels of competitive play. Some of them try to lock you down completely while others just buy enough time to combo out. Stax style control works because it is so efficient: 1 piece slows everyone down, 2 pieces essentially paralyzes the board, while 3 usually means nothing gets played. I don't think there is any argument over whether or not Derevi-Rafiq is stronger or Rafiq is stronger. Within the Bant shard Derevi is simply the Goddess. I put Azusa into a Bant shell headed by Derevi. The improvement in both speed and efficiency pushed my winrate up from around 1 in 5-6 games with Azusa to around 1 in 3 games with her in a Derevi shell. Extra turn spells do not synergize with stax strategies, therefore you will not see them at the higher levels of competitive play; they are just too easy to shut down. I understand if you wish to continue development on Rafiq. I think a heavy stax+hatebear package built around Rafiq would be optimal.
ctucker999: If you aren't fast enough to land lethal you have two options. The first is increasing the speed of your deck with more accelerators. The second is buying more time. That would mean increasing the density of your taxers, hatebears, and resource suppressors. Of the two the second is a bit more effective imo. You could look at adding some of: Glowrider, Lodestone Golem, Sphere of Resistance, Tanglewire, Chancellor of the Annex, or Gaddock Teeg. Or you could try both.
So I have been wanting to come back to Rafiq. My Jenara list runs similar to a hybrid of my Animar and Ghave lists and I like all my decks to be different. I want to come back to Voltron but from what I've read and seen voltron just isn't that competitive. You are relying on one or a few creatures to connect with combat damage over a series of turns to win. It just seems so easy to get locked down.
I love the idea of playing all the swords and cool auras and combining with cards like Puresteel Paladin, Sigarda's Aid, and Leonin Shikari and then just beating the crap out of people. The truth is though its a lot easier and more effective to just combo out in Animar or Ghave and then swing with infinite +1/+1 counters.
I've been debating other commanders like Sigarda, Host of Herons, Kaseto, Orochi Archmage, Aurelia, the Warleader, or Zurgo Helmsmasher but just don't know what I want to do.
How have you been liking your recent changes. Do the mana dorks pay off for you?
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
In test playing the mana dorks, they are pretty good. It really depends on your meta. Mine is crawling with wraths (my friend runs 8 in his jenara deck) and therefore the dorks have been so-so. I will probably cut down on one of the generic green producing ones in favor of a rock or lotus cobra.
Tbh if you just want an aggro deck to beat the crap out of people with, I'd suggest Boros or sigarda. Imo it's hard to stay on that theme in 3 colors. Even mono white could be half decent with 8.5 tails. If you want to go rafiq, I think the draw is the draw (hah), being able to play aggressive but hold up counters (think delver type decks), and more resiliency (though not as much as jenara or derevi).
In terms of when I do bash face, my favorite times have been with medomai the ageless, finest hour, time warp, and/or sovereigns of lost alara. It's always fun when you can do it twice! And safer since you don't have to kill someone and then be left wide open. Killing two people before someone else's turn is much preferred
Also, on the note of looking up tons of deck lists, I'd be really curious to get Swifts opinion (I don't know how to summon him). Especially with new cards like new Thalia, eldritch evolution(!!), spell queller, new tamiyo, and possibly sigarda' said (tho I'm not sold on it)
So do you throw down Rafiq as early as possible or do you slow play him and try to set up one shots?
I see you play Sovereigns of Lost Alara and two auras, is that mostly for the one shot with Eldrazi Conscription?
I've been thinking about trying an unlockable theme. Playing blue gives a lot of options and rafiq can three shot people unequipped. Maybe some combination of Thassa, God of the Sea, Venser, the Sojourner, Trailblazer's Boots, Steel of the Godhead, Spirit en-Dal, Archetype of Imagination, and Sun Quan, Lord of Wu. Was even thinking about trying Earnest Fellowship in here.
You run so few removal spells, how are you pushing through? Do you rely on others to clear out the board? My main problems have either been Rafiq getting removed over and over when he attacks or in response to equips or him just getting chump blocked. At the end of the day he's a 3/3 with no evasion or protection.
A buddy of mine actually runs a very voltron themed version of the deck and he just suits Rafiq up until he has 10+ power and starts one shotting people with trample and deathtouch etc. I'm not sure why it works for him and not for me, I feel like I get more hate in general from opponents. I want to figure out a way to make this deck work. I might build another equipment themed deck in addition to it.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
It sounds like you feel that the deck is lacking win cons and ways to get through. I run light removal because of the draw power. The deck really wants to set up an engine and then go from there. You don't want to overcommit to the board and then get wrathed, leaving you with an empty hand and no gas. So what if you got in 8-10 general damage, like you said, he can have a hard time getting through on his own
I have had much success with the swords, the protection x and y make him pseudo unblockable. But don't forget, ONE of the win cons if rafiq, not THE win con. This is not voltron.
Ya sovereigns is decent at the surprise kill. The package is cuttable though, my playgroup has less instant speed spot removal and more board wipes. I'd say my win cons are 1) time warp effects, 2) swords + dudes and/or rafiq (or general damage), 3) cyclonic rift, 4) finest hour or sovereigns. The 4th is the most unreliable and probably the first to go. Finest hour has been so-so in testing, it's better in theory. But the reality is just as you said, it doesn't help your dudes get through. I might cut it for new tamiyo for testing.
Thassa has been so-so for me and expendable. She really ends up being a 3 mana enchantment that can give dudes unblockable for 2. It nonbos with sword of fire and ice and lightning greaves which is the biggest issue. She is my cut for eldritch evolution.
If you are worried about blockers, my next 2 answers would be trailblazer boots and rancor. Both seem that they could be decent and are not mana intensive. I really try to hold up a counterspell if I am playing rafiq. My deck is trying to be more like Edric or derevi and less like Uril or sigarda. I couldn't do what your buddy does- rafiq never goes under the radar and is allowed to suit up like that. Id rather keep the cards flowin' mayne
PS, sigardas aid is so close...I wish it allowed cantrips like puresteel :/
Seems like an active thread so I'll post my decklist. It's mostly tuned for 1 vs 1 OR 3 player games on MTGO and I've been absolutely crushing with it since I converted over from Roon. I was winning about 75% with Roon. Rafiq is more like 85%. There are some changes I'd make for 4-5 person multi-player but this is pretty close to what I consider ideal for my play style which is lots of acceleration, low cmc, and lean instants to interact with the stack.
There are some slots I consider "flex" (Thassa, Deep Analysis, Revenge of the Hunted, Austere Command..) Eventually I'll use those slots to test out stuff like Bear Umbra, Sigarda, Stonehewer.. Also I see Medomai in lots of lists and Blighted Agent in just a few. That's a real head scratcher for me. I always win with either commander damage, infect, eldrazi conscription on a dork, or resource denial with Constable. Also Bant Charm has pretty much sucked. I would consider Finest Hour for multiplayer, but I dunno any Time Walk spell seems better to me. Also I don't think 20-ish creatures is enough to really utilize Edric or Birthing Pod which I know are popular. Tutoring up Skullclamp or Cold-Eyed Selkie to draw seems better to me. I guess Pod is fine if you're running bant etb staples but that's too grindy imo. I'm looking to just punch out my opponents ASAP. Why spend 4 mana to pod Sage into Venser when I could be dropping swords and signets and passing turn with open mana?
I avoid prison/tax stuff like Stoic Angel and Silent Arbiter. I kill faster than anyone I'm matched against so I don't mind taking beats. I also don't like all the "exalted" bears I see in some lists. I have better stuff to do with my mana, like equip swords to Rafiq/Selkie/Agent/Constable and leave counter magic mana up.
1 Rafiq of the Many
CREATURE
1 dryad arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 mother of runes
1 stoneforge mystic
1 blighted agent
1 saffi eriksdotter
1 coiling oracle
1 Bloom Tender
1 sakura-tribe elder
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 eternal witness
1 wood elves
1 Trygon Predator
1 reclamation sage
1 Cephalid Constable
1 trinket mage
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 glen elendra archmage
1 sublime archangel
1 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
ARTIFACT
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 Azorius Signet
1 Simic Signet
1 Selesnya Signet
Equips
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Skullclamp
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Rancor
1 Canopy Cover
1 Shield of the Oversoul
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Eldrazi Conscription
Enchantments
1 survival of the fittest
PW
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
INSTANT
1 Mystical Tutor
1 vines of vastwood
1 berserk
1 worldly tutor
1 enlightend tutor
1 path to exile
1 swan song
1 swords to plowshares
1 simic charm
1 selesnya charm
1 cyclonic rift
1 mana leak
1 delay
1 mana drain
1 counterspell
1 negate
1 Might of Oaks
Sorcery
1 steelshaper's gift
1 open the armory
1 three visits
1 nature's lore
1 wargate
1 deep analysis
1 austere command
1 Revenge of the Hunted
4 plains
5 forest
5 island
1 dryad arbor
1 rogue's passage
1 ancient tomb
1 flooded grove
1 temple garden
1 wooded bastion
1 strip mine
1 hallowed fountain
1 sungrass prairie
1 sunpetal grove
1 yavimaya coast
1 brushland
1 Breeding Pool
1 adarkar wastes
1 glacial fortress
1 tropical forest
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Mana Confluence
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 savannah
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Never fear, I am here! Eldritch Evolution is really good. New Thalia's performance is dependent on how many nonbasics your opponents run, the more they have the merrier she is. Sigarda's Aid is very good; the idea is to break Sigarda's Aid. This is best done within a Derevi shell. Now I must digress. The difference between non-Derevi Bant lists and the Goddess of Bant herself, Derevi, can be summed up in one word: efficiency. Derevi is super-efficient. Her openings can trim multiple turns off any start. Therefore in the interest of efficiency, I recommend taking any general within the Bant shard and shoving it inside a Derevi shell. This includes the loveable Rafiq. Rafiq in a Derevi shell would be fun. Things like Finest Hour and Sovereigns which were slow and painful in Rafiq become realistic T3 options in Derevi. The problem with Swords/equipment was them taking too much mana to cast and equip in the early game, giving opponents a full turn to react before reaping returns. Sigarda's Aid fixes that. Derevi just offers more. New Tamiyo is bad, Spell Queller is meh. If interested I'd be willing to explore a Rafiq build within a Derevi shell here.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I'd be very interested in seeing that!
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
I think rafiq is equal to or even beats derevi in packing a punch, voltron damage, and combat focused abilities like swords, medomai, and cold eye selkie. I don't like to play him all in voltron but it absolutely has to be considered as a plan b to reach his max potential.
You really think sigarda's aid is good enough to make the cut even if we are only running 4-6 equipments? I'm still skeptical but I can see its explosive potential. If it can get rafiq swinging with a sword a turn sooner that could be back breaking.
It's too bad people still misread rafiqs threat level. Don't get me wrong he's a decent mid-low tier 2, but because of PTSD and muscle memory, I still find people hating him first when there are much more threatening generals around
Edit: I've also noticed that rafiq really lacks a late game finish. He gets destroyed by chump blockers in the mid game if he's not unblockable (artifact creatures or fliers, I even have had someone instant speed donate a forbidden orchid token to block :() and late game he lacks power. I feel you 3-4 years ago swift in the fact that he needs some sort of combo late game to wrap things up when the board gets out of control. I'm hesitant to add the reveilark combo because mirror entity doesn't do much on its own. Eldritch evolution is making me want to play another 4 drop so I can go into medomai, Sphinx, or sun Titan. I might add deadeye back in
When you see a lockdown commander like Derevi, Grand Arbiter, Oloro.. they aren't better if everyone at the table knows to kill them first before they get their bull***** online. This is what Berserk, Might of Oaks, infect is for. Kill FAST, and communicate to everyone else exactly what your intentions are.
1.5/2 tier commanders are not worse than tier 1 commanders if everybody at the table always understands that you ALWAYS kill tier 1 commanders FIRST. How we are this many years into the distilling of this format and this isn't an absolute, understood, unspoken, automatic reality is baffling to me.
As for late game finish, it's relatively easy to one-shot right out of the command zone isn't it? Or same-turn infect kill? I do it all the time. True running out of gas is common for voltron. I've kept Deep Analysis in the deck and am considering putting back in Harmonize. Can't always rely on just Skullclamp and Selkie in bigger grindier games. I haven't played with Hunter's Insight. Seems so situational. If I have a high powered face smasher on board, I don't need to burn mana on cards that turn, I need instant finishers or protection up.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I'll start putting together a Rafiq in a Derevi shell over the weekend. I have a general idea of how I want to build it: speedy start into a hard hitting buffed alpha surrounded by hatebears, taxers, tutors, and engines.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
You thinking Voltron as the win con? I'm starting to lean towards hate bears too. The only advantage that he has over derevi (even if very slight) is he can pump out loads of damage in the early/mid stages (which of course paints the target on your head).
I'm excited to see what we can come up with. I don't think rafiq has reached his ceiling with the current meta and he hasn't truly been competitively explored in a year or two (from what I've seen- and I've seen almost every serious deck list on him). He will always be outclassed by derevi but that doesn't mean he can't be threatening in his own right and have unique cards to derevi that play to his stengths.
Mcscoop: in theory, in a vacuum you are correct. However in my experience, that's not always how edh plays out. The political and psychological aspect of personalities plays a huge factor. In my experience, it's the louder/winnier players who don't get attacked or targeted in a casual format like edh, even if they are commanding a broken commander. They will whine about how their deck isn't as good, or convince others why your deck is so much more powerful. Of course this is different if you are playing in tournament pods but my point being that edh is just not that black and white.
Especially since the tuck rule change I would have thought we'd see a resurgence in voltron.
Since I usually only play 2 or 3 player games I haven't experienced running out of gas as much but I do see it as an issue.
I accelerate with dorks, fetch socery and signets followed by casting one-shot pumps that do often leave my hand empty. Aside from hate and general power creep of other commanders, are we acknowledging card disadvantage as a primary flaw? It seems to me that plenty of filter spells and tutoring digs us what we need to finish, be it be a Mystical Tutor into Triumph of the Hoards or Open the Armory into Grafted Exoskeleton...
If aggro pukes their hand out then casts Wheel, should we be looking at Time Spiral and other options for gas before abandoning the archetype? When we start talking about Edric and Birthing Pod and Opposition, feels like we might as well change the title of this thread to Roon.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Rafiq in a Derevi Shell
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I'm starting to see the effectiveness of the stax. You have some interesting choices here I want to comment on / pick your brain about. Unfortunately I'm typing on my phone so it's tricky. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have internet in my new apartment haha.
You also only have 99 cards since its counting rafiq in the 99 I think. Is your missing card sigardas aid?
There's only 99 because the general is in the command zone. Looking forward to hearing constructive criticism.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
RE: rafiq in derevi shell take 1: I did probably around 50 goldfishes
what I liked:
1. I really liked the idea of the hatebears, especially the thalias. I can see them putting in some work.
2. the overall ramp package. There's a couple I'm not sure about that I'll address later. I noticed that most of it was copied from your OG list from 2012-13. [[Shaman of forgotten ways]] is a cool addition that i will test out for sure. Haven't considered him in the past, but he allows for explosive plays the next turn with rafiq + potential mana left over for a counterspell or equip cost. I will also be acquiring a [[gemstone caverns]] for my build as well.
3. [[winter orb]]. Yup, no explaination needed. Perfectly gels with our staxy bears package.
4. the [[sovereigns of lost alara]] package: [[patter of rebirth]], as i previously mentioned is the key here. I love it. Even [[bear umbra]] is extremely synergetic, although 90% of the time it wouldn't be what I'd go for first (I noticed you cut it in the 2nd edition and I'm ok with that, might be more cute in theory than reality).
what I was meh on:
1. 31 lands- 2 that cant be used T1 to play most of your stuff (mishra's factory and cradle). Seems a bit too low. In playtesting it did ok with aggressive mulling but I still feel uneasy about it. [[alchemist's refuse]] im not sold on either, might be too cute. The rest are solid, although I might add 1 of each basic for PtE or blood moon type stuff.
2. The 0 ramp artifacts are OP, but I'm not sure about all of them in this type of build. I'm most specifically worried about [[mox diamond]] with a deck with such few lands. Could lead to awkward t2-3 plays with potential land drop misses. [[Chrome mox]] is great, and [[lotus petal]] is so-so but I understand its inclusion. If only we had enough artifacts for [[mox opal]] instead.
3. [[argentum armor]]. With only 1 way to cheat it into play with a creature that requires tapping, seems too cute. I did however get a play where I had [[lotus cobra]] with an active [[stonehewer giant]] and [[birthing pod]]. Stuck the armor on the cobra, then dumped giant for sovereigns w/ birthing pod and got conscriptions on cobra. Good times barring no removal lol.
4. [[idyllic tutor]], not really enough solid tutor targets IMO. Survival is there if you choose to add the combo tho.
5. Im curious about [[emeria shepherd]]. Have you playtested her in derevi before? She has been one of those cards that looks better than she played in my boros deck. However, bant is oozing with value (and fetches) so she could work here.
6. Where is the removal? It scares me that there is a lack of board wipe and spot removal here. [[swords to plowshares]] and maybe [[supreme verdict]] would be nice to have.
RE: rafiq in derevi shell 2
TBH I don't know if I like this build as much. It feels like you went even more into the derevi side of things and got harder into the stax. A lot of the tax inducers are too unilateral for me ([[lodestone golem]], [[tangle wire]], and even [[static orb]] which I realize was in last build too.) Derevi can easily take advantage of these types of cards but Rafiq doesn't have that luxury. I do like the creature based ones outside of golem b/c they can keep swinging and keep the pressure on.
New things I liked:
- [[Inquisitor's Flail]] (could be cool in a low creature meta. Double double strike? lol).
What I didn't like:
-The tango lands. In a build that wants to come out of the gates this quickly, I don't think they warrant a spot. I tried them out for about 6 months and they even felt a bit too slow in my slower rafiq build.
-[[Sunscape Familiar]]. In a 3 color deck with such a low curve, I don't see this putting in much work. However, I do see it's warranted inclusion w/ the heavy tax element, but still, idk it just feels meh.
-[[captain sisay]] i'm a bit meh on too. Not a ton of ways to abuse her, and seems like she would only be fetching taxers until she can land elesh norn. She has targets but none that are essential to winning after she lands on t2-3 and takes a turn to work.
-[[Phyrexian Hydra]]. Looks like a filler for a potential experient spot? It has good P/T stats at the CMC, but I'm worried that it'll just sit there w/ lack of any built in evasion. Plus it costs 5 w/ no ETB. As far as racking up poison, I think [[putrefax]] and [[grated exoskeleton]] are fine.
So going forwards, in terms of additions, I'd like to see:
1. a Jin gitaxias reanimator package. If we are already playing [[pattern of rebirth]], I think we are half way there. Inclusion of [[karmic guide]] or [[body double]] (k guide if you are worried about edicts, b. doub if your opponents are playing reanimator decks) makes a nice survival chain to play.
2. increasing the land count by 1-3.
3. [[strip mine]] and [[wasteland]]. Work great with our mini tax theme as well as an early [[eldritch evolution]] fetching [[sun titan]] to lock someone out of the game while we beat.
4. I personally like [[medomai the ageless]] although I understand warranting the exclusion. Extremely high risk/reward but like [[putrefax]], ends the game if you swing with it and rafiq out. Plus fetchable with [[fierce empath]].
5. possibly [[Reveillark]]. Helps us rebuild our tax plan, utility dudes like stoneforge, or ramp dudes. Just a great spot in the [[birthing pod]] chain for a plan b.
6. [[steelshaper's gift]]. t1 this w/ our rocks can lead to boot wearing rafiq t3.
7. Does GSZ warrant an inclusion?
8. signets could be nice with all the mana rocks in our mana hungry 3 color deck. I've had a handfull of draws where we get some combination of [[mana vault]]/[[sol ring]]/[[mana crypt]] and no way to play the good things in our hand or start going to town with rafiq.
9. combat value creatures, namely [[cold-eyed selkie]] and maybe thada adel. We got equipment and a double strike machine.
After writing out these additions, I see that I'm slowly reverting back to my build, so I don't want all of these inclusions b/c they obviously slow us down. But I think 3 or 4 of these additions could help smooth things out. Let me know what you think or about some of your ideas with the more "controversial" card choices you had.
I'm off to build Oloro into infect voltron. Unsubscribe.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Take 2: As I remarked above I was not happy with the lack of focus in Take 1. The cards which I thought were durdlers all got pulled: more control elements in the form of taxers got put in, filter elements to improve the card quality we see were introduced, and I added the Hydra for board control. I don't see the taxers as unilatereal; as long as we have a fast start the taxers become negligible. In addition as we are mostly creature-based control and have a second main-phase to put in an extra round of spells after untapping stuff from combat - we will play more spells than our opponents. Cards like Sunscape Familiar and GAIV are invaluable with those taxers and get us closer to Finest Hour/C Sphinx, etc. I completely forgot Medomai existed. I'll have to go pick up a copy. She can do some good work with Rafiq and Finest Hour, and is an overall better fit than the hydra. I'll edit her into take 2. Strip Mine and Wasteland are too slow and we need the colored mana, as well as the additional mana for board development. Jin and Loyal Retainers is more suited towards an aggressive stax build. I played them for a while before deciding their slots were better spent on cards with more immediate impact in my Derevi tempo. The type of cards I love are efficient and either accelerate us towards our win-condition or stop opponents from getting there. I love engine-type cards like Survival, Tezzeret, Captain Sisay, and Birthing Pod. As well as draw engines like Sylvan, Mystic Remora, Rhystic Study, and C Sphinx. You can often ride them to victory over the roadbumps your opponents put in your path. I think I need to get some actual games in to see where the deck is weak or where it fails to decide what direction to take it next for take 3.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Lol, well my meta is anything goes. We have a good time regardless of how cut-throat our decks are. I found you can build Rafiq up to a certain point and then you hit a ceiling. It's very evident when you are playing against Zur and BUG: ultra-efficient combos, answers, and win conditions. Most strategies, including voltron infect, will not be competitive in such a meta. You need to run ways to slow down opponents. I guess you could say my deckbuilding and ideas are not suitable for every group, but I like to think in building for worst-case scenarios I am building the best deck possible
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Here is where I'm at now, call it Rafiq in a derevi shell take 2.5 haha. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rafiq-in-derevi-shell/. Note that mana drain was cut for pact of negation as I don't have access to drain. Here are my thoughts on potential replacements/upgrades:
Wood elves: Feels a little too slow here and nonbos w/ winter orb. I don't know why but every goldfish I got wood elves I also had winter orb. What other ramp options do we have at 2 or less? The only that I can think of are llanowar elves/crew, mox diamond (which I'm still not 100% sold on and don't own a copy anyways), sylvan ranger/coiling oracle (yuck). I wasn't too fond of weathered wayfarer, even though I understand its a great card. It just felt slow and clunky and shaped my first couple turns too much. I've never actually used it IRL tho, I could be playing it wrong.
Shaman of forgotten ways: I'm hit or miss on him. I want to keep him because of the potential of a t3 sovereigns or medomai. He's a bit awkard on the curve with the swords tho.
Reveilark: Is a great card, but is it too slow here? Feels more "defense" than offense, and we aren't running the combo so its wrath deterrent or for b-pod chain, which I'm finding myself using less and less.
Fierce Empath: Do we have enough tutors for our big creatures? I'd actually rather wood elves take its spot (and get a lower CMC ramp card) or trinket mage
Cold-eyed selkie: Cuttable but I still really like it
Possible adds: I'd love to hear your opinions on these.
Trinket mage: finds ramp, clamp, or top
karmic guide: over body double. Double is probably better tho, but if we cut lark then we only have stonehewer giant as our only true 5 cmc critter for pod chain. However, if I'm going this route, is loyal retainers just better all the way?
linvala: I haven't seen you mention her yet, do you think she's a worthy inclusion?
containment priest: meta call. Shuts down a ton of decks (mostly the nonblue ones unfortunately)
Another cheap draw spell: I know brainstorm is good but I haven't had much success with it in EDH unless I have a fetch too.
Signets: Not the full set, just 1 or 2
Loxodon gatekeeper: I've always liked this card, probably just way too slow though at 4 mana.
Grand abolisher: worth a slot? I feel so vulnerable tapping out for sovereigns or getting a big boy out there w/o some form of protection since we are only running 2-3 counterspells
Bane of Progress: is he really worth it? Obviously a great tutor target but I'm hesitant as we are very reliant on our artifacts to win (for stax or aggro). Maybe just a meta call.
Fauna shaman: could be nice
Yisan: No ways to abuse him w/o derevi but we do have great chains.
Wargate: can find stax pieces at 5 mana but probably too slow for this build. I do have a foil version however, so it is extra motivation to add it
PS selfless spirit: could be good in a wrath heavy meta, although it doesn't dodge cyclonic rift or toxic deluge very well. Jeweled Amulet is something I might try over a signet, I've heard good things about it.
PSS I think new Tamiyo might be worth a test in this specific, rafiq build. Allows for more staxyness (on only one player admittedly) or more juice flowing as we swing with our bears.
Wood Elves and Weathered Wayfarer help our low land count. Gyre Sage is an option I liked; when you play him T2 and Derevi T3 you can tap him for GG. Cards which produce more than what they cost are another category of favorites. Coalition Relic is another excellent option since it can generate multiple colored mana. Druids' Repository was another card I liked. Gilded Lotus too. Shaman's summoning sickness is annoying I didn't like seeing him early. Reveillark is a dead card too often. Fierce Empath is ok, Selkie is worse than Edric imo. Trinket Mage is good. Karmic Guide, too slow. Body Double is superior. Linvala is a meta call. Sage of Epityr is a superb filter card. A T0 Gemstone Caverns into Brainstorm is very handy. The Sage has done fantastic. It does: board presence early, filtering, and acceleration w Derevi combat trigger. Signets I'm not big on, a 2cmc spell to make 1cmc doesn't offer enough acceleration to suit my tastes. Loxodon Gatekeeper is decent but costly. Grand Abolisher doesn't offer enough board impact to make it worth a slot. A better option would be Voidmage Prodigy, and even then you could argue it is a bit slow. Bane of Progress is for if you are very far behind, like multiple opponents had fantastic openings, you need to reset asap. Fauna Shaman is good but slightly slow. With both Survival and Fauna I would add Masked Admirers to create an engine, and maybe even the Jin + Loyal Retainers. Yisan is slow to get going, but good. Engines are good. Wargate is pretty nice. Usually I get Cradle or Mystic Remora with it early. The problem is there just aren't enough slots to do everything we want to do.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Is the derevi shell rafiq the most competitive version of rafiq?
Is derevi more competitive than rafiq?
If derevi is the better commander then I don't see the point in trying to push rafiq. I feel like you will still have the same problems: having to deal 10 infect or 21 commander damage to 3 opponents before someone combos out or does your job better.
I also don't see any extra turns spells in your lists which for me have been the most reliable ways to win a game. I've never played a stax style deck so maybe I don't see the power that will let you beat people down while they can only untap a land per turn or have to pay more for their spells.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
I quad goldfished (is that even a thing?) this deck against my friends kaalia, a good scion list I found on tappedout (non hermit druid combo), and random 4th decks. I was having difficulty staying a float everytime. I could get out a staxer between thorn, GAAIV, thalias most games but I wasn't fast enough to land lethal before they established board position. Kaalia was especially brutal, especially with no pro white sword. He has a very good build imo, possibly "the best" MP list I've seen to date.
I had 2 games today on untap, went 2-0. Had subbed out wood elves for llanowar elves and fierce empath for opposition, never drew either. Although I won both games, they were against mostly mediocore decks. G1 against a timmyish Kruphix god deck and a netdecked? silver queen. The silver queen guy was kinda a noob and rage quit after t4 b/c he was arguing with us that reflecting pool could tap for red when he only had G&U available. Also tried to maze my rafiq with boots lol. Was able to beat kruphix before he got out of hand with a rafiq equipped with SoFaF. G2 was more interesting, pod of mono b mikeaus (stax i think) which was a good deck, mono b meren, mizzix, and rafiq. Mizzix looked like pre con, mike was good, and meren didnt do anything. I started out with a t3 medomai after a t2 cobra, ancient tomb, and fetch. Had top too. t4 played finest hour. I didnt have any protection with medomai, went with it anyways, he got rebounded by mizzix. From there Mike played contamination and controlled the game for awhile. I was stuck with colored sources from land drops I could find with cobra. Meren plays Ob Nix unshackled, I gilded drake it, and play survival and get stoneforge+boots (mana from a fetch). Mike plays damnation, I'm screwed at this point but have finest hour and survival, just need to blow up contamination. Mike then scoops cuz he g2g, I proceed to recast medomai with boots and finest hour out, killing them both over the next 2 turns.
Both games felt a bit close for such a powerful deck not matching up against t1 decks. However, important to note that I was always the target each of these games, and I'm sure in a 4 man pod in your meta with zur, jelava doomsday, etc, that wouldnt have been the case.
Moving forwards, the staxers felt underwhelming, but that's also bc I played against either noncompetitive decks, or creature based ones. I'll stick with them. A stronger equipment suit could be useful (sword of light and shadow OR war and peace) + sigarda's aid and possibly puresteel paladin as a mini engine. Boots is just soooo good in our build cuz everyone wants our stuff dead.
How do you feel about fiend hunter? It would be really nice to have emergency creature removal + get sword bashes too.
Moving forwards, I'll do:
wood elves -> llanowar elves
fierce empath -> another llanowar elves dude (or wargate if we are going more equip route)
grand abolisher -> swords to plowshares
cold eye selkie -> sage of epityr or brainstorm (or sigarada's aid if going that route)
reveilark -> steelshaper's gift.
shaman of forgotten ways -> gyre sage
??? -> supreme verdict/hallowed burial?
w/ the addition of gyre sage and llanowar elves, a couple filter lands might be nice (wooded bastion and flooded grove).
patryn: Yo! You're back haha.
1. That's what we are trying to do- experiment and see if a stax shell is rafiq's most competitive option. Rafiq hasn't been explored too much since the no tuck rule and really, over the past couple years (since derevi captured everyone's attention). Feel free to join our testing, we could always use another brain to help brew!
2. Derevi is absolutely more competitive than rafiq, no question. She also poses a bigger threat at more competitive tables however. She is much stronger in archenemy style games and at defense. She's also a mini sword of feast and famine that's recastable from the command zone w/ flash and no commander tax. No clue what wizards was thinking there...
3. I like rafiq b/c he's an OG and he can win out of nowhere. He's just as explosive, if not more explosive in his own, more linear way. Rafiq is a wincon in himself, whereas derevi sets up win cons. Rafiq is Shaq and derevi is....well...steph curry ha.
4. Time warp and friends are very good - dont get us wrong. I dont think time warp fits into the staxbear version. It is very difficult to cast at 5 mana with taxers out, plus if we are ramping into it t3 or 4 its a glorified explore. Time warp is better in a midrange build of rafiq, or with more ways to abuse it and bring it back from the gy with blink effects.
ctucker999: If you aren't fast enough to land lethal you have two options. The first is increasing the speed of your deck with more accelerators. The second is buying more time. That would mean increasing the density of your taxers, hatebears, and resource suppressors. Of the two the second is a bit more effective imo. You could look at adding some of: Glowrider, Lodestone Golem, Sphere of Resistance, Tanglewire, Chancellor of the Annex, or Gaddock Teeg. Or you could try both.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL