"Timetwister effects are on my radar to test more after liking Days Undoing lately"
Symmetrical effects are so much worse than asymmetrical effects, though :/ Refilling everyone's hand is soooooo bad.
"Noxious Revival sets of Temporal Mastery too"
I have seen a number of people running Noxious. It's a great EOT play, and simply the nuts in Edric. Probably worth trying out!
"I remember when Recurring Insight was a staple in the format"
I still love it in many blue decks.
"Sure Brainstorm and Preordain don't half refill your mitt"
Yeah, they def fill a different need (selection, consistency, speed) and are fit-around types of plays that smooth things over with our excess or otherwise inefficient mana.
But yeah, I try to run as many sources of CA as reasonably possible so that even when we aren't crazy threatening (everyone looks to kill a Sworded, double-striking Selkie, not just the defending player), we are amassing cards. Which also lets us pump out excess lands with Exploration/Burgeoning/Orace/etc to hold serve in terms of cards with grindy/efficient decks and lands with ramp decks. We don't need 100% of what they have, we just need enough to create the opportunity to kill them. But when we have 1-2 cards and they have 7, we aren't landing lethal attacks :/
Lack of CA is kind of just a reality I've accepted but still am open to testing what might help subsidize this inherent shortcoming. I play a lot of low cmc. It's easy to go down to 2-3 cards in hand turn 4. Rather than spending an entire turn trying to draw a small amount of cards I've developed a play style that is more meticulous and calculated, opting for tutoring or filtering out the "right" card, or in the case of Noxious Revival reclaiming it.
To address MrCoupon's apparent disdain for Timetwister and ilk - I'm usually netting 5-6 new cards because either I alpha-stike'd or dumped my hand accelerating and playing control. My opponents are almost always netting less, and many times have their game plan disrupted. I learned that watching red players who aggro out, bolt everything in sight, run out of gas, and then bam! a hiss of boos when Wheel resolves.
To quote you, "But when we have 1-2 cards and they have 7, we aren't landing lethal attacks :/" Pretty great upsides imo, and apparently the opinion of many blue players because I encountered it frequently when running grindier decks and would usually utter "dammit" when it resolved. Maybe I don't encounter Time Spiral as often piloting Rafiq because I am either pressuring them too hard or am just about out of cards so it's too disadvantageous for them.
I'm going to run Recurring Insight in 3 man pods online for a bit and see how often it's successful.
I'm also going to add Diminishing Returns and Time Reversal along side Day's Undoing so I hit a wheel more often just to see how well they perform before I pay $8 for Timetwister or $16 for Time Spiral.
The Temporal Mastery off of Noxious Revival is also facilitated by Looter il-Kor, Intuition, Fact or Fiction, Jace Architect, and Jace Prodigy.
Throw in Karmic Guide, Snapcaster, and Dig Through Time and voila, a mini gy theme yet still all really great spells on their own.
Update: Played a grindy game with a stalled board. Cast Diminishing Returns, next turn cast Recurring Insight. Drew 19 cards over 3 turns. Obviously a best case scenerio on my first try, but still pretty snazzy.
Of the Wheels, only Spiral, which allows you to untap, seems to have a reasonable chance to make a final cut. I applaud you for testing your idea, and I await your results, but I strongly rebuke your analysis.
The problem with wheel effects is you are measuring cards drawn for us, not card advantage. And the problems with them run deeper than just that. But let's begin with just CA. I want to preface this by mentioning the math works more in your favor playing in 3s rather than 4s, but the underlying principle of evaluation remains the same. We are looking at cards gained versus cards lost, and giving our opponents cards is a negative. If you cast a wheel effect with 2 cards in hand and each opponent with 5 card, you net draw 5 and your opponents collectively net draw 6. That is -1 card from the effect.
Just the basic math is not the end of the issue, either. From a tempo standpoint, outside of Spiral, which allows for an untap, we are giving our opponents the first opportunity to use the cards because we are the ones paying for the effect. Additionally, with the ease with which graveyards are utilized in the format, we are often giving them access to everything they had plus an additional seven cards each.
Looking then from the position of the other players' perspective, you have a few choices. The grindy incremental advantage decks dislike the resolution of wheel effects. As such, they have incentive to not allow it to resolve. Which can prevent if desired. Or they can simply respond by unloading all of their removal knowing they will be restocked.
The combo player has a wet dream about someone else casting a wheel effect. Against a tuned deck, casting a wheel and then passing the turn is not terribly dissimilar to conceding the game. This is worst case scenario.
Like, idk, maybe we play in vastly different metagames. Where I play, if you resolve a wheel effect, you need heavy stax or tax elements in place, because you are loading people with threats or answers and have spent your resources to do so. We play neither heavy stax nor tax. Unless we hit an extra turn effect that we can cast the same turn, this seems very weak.
Here's what I learned from watching red players: they aggro out, bolt everything in sight, damage one player but kill no one, try for a wheel, it's countered, and their game is over. They sit for 30-40 minutes watching everyone else play Magic and know they will never be a threat ever again in the game. My goal is to avoid having to resolve do-or-die spells on the early turns, while maintaining a high percentage of the ability to threaten early, and to maximize the ability to lethally strike whenever the opportunity presents itself.
I'm aware of the downside theories of wheel effects, but you articulated it very well. I once had a very good player tell me that he doesn't care about giving players cards because his cards are better. I was like "huh?" He explained that his cards are primarily tailored to accelerating and digging into a win. Of course, he was a combo player mostly just trying to entwine Tooth and Nail but I saw his point. While everyone else was mostly getting mana rocks, spot removal, utility creatures, and bombs they didn't have enough mana to cast yet out of the deal, he was getting the cards he needed to combo out. The reason I bring this up is because isn't that what we're sorta doing too, albeit to a lesser degree?
Despite completely agreeing with your assessment, my direct experience has been more along the lines of "I have 2 cards in hand. My opponents have between 4-6 each. I cast a wheel backed by mana drain and now I have a full arsenal of cards to win with whereas before I had no win cards. I cast berserk on my already Rancor'd Rafiq, I win the stack war with Vines and Swan Song, I knock the biggest threat out of the game." I mean, I've swung for more with Lord of Extinction, but that just came outta nowhere. Audacious alpha strikes are probably the most rewarding moments in the game imo. The other guy in the game then proceeded to grind me out, but I regret nothing.
Now, maybe you're right and it's not necessary at all. Maybe I could have conserved that Mana Drain, tutored Berserk, filtered for Swan Song, and achieved the same result without the risk of giving my opponents more cards to stop me with.
In testing the wheels have been great in stalled games, especially against decks that have way better CA engines than me (which is most unless I get Selkie going or have plenty of dorks to clamp). Otherwise, yeah Recurring Insight has mostly been better. The main difference is that with a wheel I can occasionally win same turn (minus Day's Undoing).
Aside from just being really conservative, taking beats, and letting my opponents overextend so I can hit 'em hard with a Eldrazi Conscription or a devastating Austere Command, the best way I have discovered to stay in the CA game against decks with good draw engines is to get Selkie going. Sometimes it means committing every spell in my hand to protect and buff it, but when I get it going it's pretty nuts. There is definitely a high risk - high reward element to it all, but honestly that's why I find piloting Rafiq so exciting. While it's not as dynamic as my old Roon deck, there are two distinct modes of play. Kill everyone before they know what happened, or sit back and wait for the magic moment to unleash the epic face smash. One time I Sovereign triggered into Conscription, cast Might of Oaks, then Berserk. The life total of my opponent on the computer screen read -72. My opponent chatted "I've been waiting my whole life for someone to hit me that hard. Do you happen to be Chuck Norris irl?"
I know there was a big discussion about stax partially in an attempt to offset our apparent CA issue by stretching the game out, but from what I gathered it's just too big of a commitment to be optimal. I don't care much for Derevi stax, but I do liken Rafiq's potential to function similar to Brago in that we tax and lock while laboring to punch to activate triggers. So what are your thoughts on Cataclysm and Armageddon effects? And what about Silence and Orim's Chant. They seem like Time Walks against the best player at the table, and sometimes 1 more turn is all we need to knock 'em out.
So in sum can I roughly simplify like this:
Mrcoupon: your list plays more like Edric
Mcscoop: your playing 90% voltron, which is sorta a "combo" deck as you just described
If this is true, the wheel discernment makes sense. Not that I'm personally on board with the wheel idea but I can see what you're saying mcscoop, in that, at the very least, wheels are better in your build than mrcoupon's.
Wheel effects are bad unless you plan on winning the game the same turn you're casting one. I can't even count the number of games where I've seen a wheel effect directly lead to someone else winning their next turn, or a couple turns down the line. Giving each opponent 7 new cards is just a terrible idea; odds are at least one of them will get a better 7 than you. So unless you win that turn, don't expect to win that game.
Lmao, yeah, we care both making an incomplete appeal. I am coming from a theory standpoint having never tested wheels in the deck, and you are coming from results-oriented anecdotes that may not stand the test of time. As such, I was not joking when I said I support your testing of the wheels, because I am not going to, but if they end up being the bee's knees, hey, I'm all for being wrong in order to move us forward
Mrcoupon, I'm curious on your choices of seal of removal and Sphinx of uthuun. Also curious on what you find yourself tutoring for most often in your build between E call/CoC, Steel gift, Enlightened and mystical tutor. Particularly earlier game with the creature based tutors
Most common creature tutor target is almost definitely Eternal Witness. Stoneforge Mystic is one of my favorites Chord. Equipment tutors will usually find Feast and Famine or, if I'm in a one-shot position, Grafted Exo. Obviously everything is heavily dependent upon board state and my perception of answers. I don't run my best stuff into removal just because I can. I don't play Enlightened Tutor. Mystical Tutor EOT is often for a time walk effect, but with card draw it often hits a counterspell. With access to Feast and Famine I will often tutor for Sphinx's Rev if I have card draw source so I can fire it off after first strike untap but before regular damage untap.
Seal of Removal is hecka versatile. Stops the early commanders who need tempo (Edric, Thada, etc), protects our guys if need be, and reuses effects like Snappy, Witness, GE Arch, and Sphinx. Seal was something I thought was basically a joke until I was finally convinced to just *try* it. Now it goes in almost all of my UG/x builds. Also another line of defense versus Lab Man. Hits as early as turn one, and fits its way into turns very, very easily.
Sphinx was not in my build when I was all-in aggro. But I found that such a build just doesn't clear competitive tables. We need cards. Plus he has a relevant body and built-in evasion. Block problematic fliers (not huge upside there, but it has come up) and smacks for 12 in the air. Also, we use our graveyard well, so the Fact or Fiction effects are strong.
Ah I see. Lol I'm glad someone else still uses hecka xD. I'll have to try out seal, sounds like some sweet secret tech. How has putrefax worked out for you? I've always been on the fence with it because I feel like they could chump it with a 3/3+ and take 9 poison (assuming rafiq is out). Do you feel that you get good mileage out of mana vault and grim monolith? I understand they are staples but there don't seem to be many ways to abuse them. I like how you can use them to accelerate explosive hands with some critter+ equipment same turn. But in a demanding 3 colored deck do you struggle with it vs like a signet or something?
Both Vault and Grim are waaaaaaaay better than signet. Example: one game went t1 Trop, Vault. T2, Island, Tezz the Seeker, -0 for Crypt, play Grim. T3 something along lines of Greaves, Medomai, equip, attack. Then Constable, equip Greaves, attack, Time Warp. Then cast Rafiq, -3 for SwoFaF, table concedes.
Anecdotal evidence does not make for a good argument, but I simply want to highlight both the significantly higher upside and that yes, we indeed can abuse them. Also, this is where my list running cards like Sphinx works better to utilize the early colorless rituals. So it's probably tuned more towards my specific strategy, but I would rather build towards their power anyway.
Edit: I rarely struggle with colored mana, but it does happen. This deck, bc of how interesting the versatility of attack is, forces us to shift strategy frequently within the game to avoid running out of gas trying to push for a kill that we just don't have. So if I am hurting for a color, I tend to take a more control or midrange oriented approach. These are the games where Greaves shines the most.
Putrefax is interesting. He is a dead card more often than I typically allow my selections to be, but he is also a dead opponent more often than any of my other cards. He is an ace up the sleeve in my opinion. I hate to devote 5 mana to that, but he is so very deadly. And if our opponents can all block to prevent lethal, we don't cast him.
Hey Rafiq fam, long time no see! Looks like we got a few potentials from C16. I will be playtesting [[conqueror's flail]] and [[armory automaton]]. Here's my current list atm designed for a competitive meta http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-09-16-1234/ . Anyone else have any new tech? The blue sorcery that reveals top 10 doesn't look too bad, but i dont have any cuts for it.
And the 20hp rule hasn't been commented here bu still a good update to the deck !
With this i put in propagand and ghostly prison , and out Eidolon of rethoric, and sword of mind and body.
I will post my nw list if interested =)
Hey man! Yeah agreed; automaton keeps us on curve with our beats, the free equip costs (etb or attack =O) lets us keep up mana for a counterspell while keeping pressure on during the early turns. Flail is great against blue players and gives us a semi-grand abolisher on any creature.
I dont think anyone has mentioned the 20 life change because we had mostly been discussing multiplayer and the OP had a multiplayer list.
And definitely share your list! The more conversation and discussion we can have about our beloved general, the more we can hopefully improve our own decks
I also see most of your decks aren't running Moxes. Is the card disadvantage not worth the acceleration?
I've been looking at a alot of Derevi and a lot of Edric lists. Mine is much closer to Edric right now, going for the extra turns combat damage win. I still have some more slots to change and I often wonder if just going Derevi or Edric would be the stronger game plan. Rafiq is near to my heart though haha. Always liked the idea of a competitive equipment based list.
In
Edric, Spymaster of Trest :Double draw
Fyndhorn Elves :another ramp
Gaddock Teeg :Prohibit Big Spell(use for opponent with big spell)
Gilded Drake : play with chord of calling
Oracle of Mul Daya : Rush
Temur Sabertooth :another infinite mode with eternal witness or Archeomancer
Intuition :Infinite time package selection
Thalia, Heretic Cathar :Slow them down
Putrefax : Surprise
Gaea's Cradle : Ramp with many elf
Crop Rotation : search gaea cradle or rougue passsage
out
Walk the Aeons
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Consecrated Sphinx
Thassa, God of the Sea
Wargate
Nature's Lore
Three Visits
Fact or Fiction
Worldly Tutor
Hey patryn! I thought you were done with rafiq, glad you are back to where the heart is ;). I've actually made a lot of changes too and very similar to yours. I opted for time walk loops and the linvala+living plane combo as the win. I believe its the best combo we have access to that is affordable (mana wise) and takes up the least amount of slots.
Yeah I am back and forth on the moxes. I think if you are in a combo heavy meta they might be necessary. I just hate the card disadvantage though, and where the deck sits, there aren't a lot of 2 drops to play. It's more common to go dork into 3 drop, or into 2 drop with mana open for interaction.
Lol I have been carving the internet of edric and derevi lists. I agree that mine is closer to edric as well. The biggest advantage we have over edric is that we aren't playing a bunch of 1/1's that are useless without our commander; our beaters have more functions. Instead of going for beefier beaters, I have opted for staxy hate bears, giving my opponents card disadvantage by turning off cards in their hand.
I am back and forth on rector. Yeah it is a great combo with EE, however every time I ran her, I just felt like i was lacking sac outlets. I think she's better if you are going with birthing pod and high market with small land support package. I recently built a dredge version of rafiq that has some stuff, although not nearly as competitive. If you are desperate for a creature sac outlet, I stumbled upon [[drowned rusalka]], which i didnt' even know existed.
I've been considering [[dark depths]] as a new combo option. We can kill in 1 swing with liege + rafiq :eek::eek:. Also considering a [counterbalance] package.
Vegnus do you happen to have a full list somewhere? I think I missed it.
Haha three different Rafiq lists you're working on, nice. I agree with Rector it's tough because Eldritch Evolution would be the only sac outlet in the deck. Probably not worth it. Although in my current list she could grab Finest Hour and Eldrazi Conscription too depending on board state.
Yeah, finest hour is a meta call. It's not very good imo without appropriate evasion. If you can get through or have players who dont play many creatures (not fast combo tho) then maybe that would work. There's also an argument for omniscience too if you are going the rector-route. Dont forget about survival as well.
Yeah haha I'm a little obsessed with trying to make rafiq work, what can i say
How has the light stax elements worked for you? I'm a little hesitant to play them because we like playing our non creature spells as well. If they are just to tie up the board once Rafiq is online and unanswered wouldn't Hokori, Dust Drinker, Static Orb, Winter Orb, etc work better? Or are you finding them useful in other ways? (talking about Thalia, Gaddock, Kataki type bros)
Curious how Yisan, the Wanderer Bard is working for you. He looks slow but a creature a turn could pay off in the long run?
How have you liked Conqueror's Flail? Makes rafiq into a two shot and stops answers while you're chaining extra turns seems good?
My list is mostly based off the meta of the cedh subreddit. Here's my two cents.
Stax in general is all about being able to break parity. Some generals do that very well like derevi or brago, whereas rafiq doesn't have much of a way to do that inso himself. I assume you are referring to the "hyper competitive" list, not my current one ( i think im running hokori in that one). The cedh meta has gotten full of dorks, moxes, etc, and so hokori and friends are more difficult to abuse with rafiq at the helm. Those would be great cards however if your meta is very heavy on land ramp v dorks. Static orb could be an interesting choice if you are going a more voltron route.
The way i try to break parity is by having more information than my opponents, fast ramp (dorks, other 0-1 mana rocks), and making sure it hurts them more than me (meta). Like I have less cards affected by gaddock teeg than a control list. Thalia is very strong against storm, and kataki against stax and other heavy artifact decks.
Noxious revival is amazing, I'd highly recommend running intuition with it,, as you can get any card in combination with eternal witness. You can also use it as grave hate against targeted reanimation.
Yisan and conqueror's flail are more recent adds that i haven't been able to test IRL. I saw yisan being played in cobblepot's karador list, and i figured id try it if he's able to run it with no ways to abuse it. However, he has better 1 drops to search for in his combo, so i really want to test yisan IRL. The best route for us might be dork/mother of runes, stoneforge/hate bear, E wit/selkie. But ya, not sure if mother of runes has the same power as viscera seer does in his combo list.
Just a warning but i have not been able to test this IRL for the past few months, I recently moved and started school again so I dont have time for FNM or know local players. I've just been goldfishing like a madman
PS: just saw your list, I love it, it looks like a blast! How have thassa, tamiyo, and medomai been working for you? Thanks for the shoutout too! Ive really been meaning to write up a primer here...(been saying that for the last year or so)
I haven't seen Tamiyo in play yet, but the draw seems good. Thassa is almost entirely for unblockable, which doesn't work with Sword of Fire and Ice. I've been debating replacing her with Trailblazer's Boots. Medomai is amazing when it hits. Of course it dies to doom blade but I've had it connect with Rafiq out and end games quite a few times. It also goes along with the time walk theme.
That's how I feel about tamiyo too, although I am having difficulty justifying her over jace. I do like the -2 ability.
I've never played trailblazer boots but have considered it. I took out thassa awhile ago for similar reasons, the scry 1 each turn wasn't as good as i thought, and most of the time rafiq has the evasion he needs.
I had medomai too but it drew a lot of hate and i always tried to get it out t3 or 4. But its basically a win if you connect with rafiq out. Have you tried [[Identity thief]]? It lets you swing with medomai on your extra turns, abuse ETB effects (like E wit for time walk loops), or remove blockers for a turn (although you wouldn't be swinging with rafiq). Could be too cute however. How's venser been? Do you find you have enough targets for the +2?
Haha Identity Thief is not something I ever considered but I do think it hinges on too many other pieces to be good.
Venser, the Sojourner has kept himself from being cut by enabling both unblockable and time warp chains. I like him quite a bit. He's currently my only way to take infinite turns.
For sure on venser. I've hopped around too looking for that infinite time warp enabler that synergizes most with the list. After I tried venser i tried mistmeadow witch (was meh) and deadeye navigator (not enough synergy and high mana cost ran him out). Then i went with I tried sword of light and shadow (works with skullclamp) but hated tapping out for it and it was always meh outside the protection colors. Temur sabertooth has been my latest experiment, i've always heard he's better in practicality than he looks. Sun titan works as well with a sac outlet. Maybe with venser you can cut thassa once and for all?
Have you been able to play the deck lately? How's it been running? Lol it's been soo long since i've been able to discuss rafiq with others...
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
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Symmetrical effects are so much worse than asymmetrical effects, though :/ Refilling everyone's hand is soooooo bad.
"Noxious Revival sets of Temporal Mastery too"
I have seen a number of people running Noxious. It's a great EOT play, and simply the nuts in Edric. Probably worth trying out!
"I remember when Recurring Insight was a staple in the format"
I still love it in many blue decks.
"Sure Brainstorm and Preordain don't half refill your mitt"
Yeah, they def fill a different need (selection, consistency, speed) and are fit-around types of plays that smooth things over with our excess or otherwise inefficient mana.
But yeah, I try to run as many sources of CA as reasonably possible so that even when we aren't crazy threatening (everyone looks to kill a Sworded, double-striking Selkie, not just the defending player), we are amassing cards. Which also lets us pump out excess lands with Exploration/Burgeoning/Orace/etc to hold serve in terms of cards with grindy/efficient decks and lands with ramp decks. We don't need 100% of what they have, we just need enough to create the opportunity to kill them. But when we have 1-2 cards and they have 7, we aren't landing lethal attacks :/
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
To address MrCoupon's apparent disdain for Timetwister and ilk - I'm usually netting 5-6 new cards because either I alpha-stike'd or dumped my hand accelerating and playing control. My opponents are almost always netting less, and many times have their game plan disrupted. I learned that watching red players who aggro out, bolt everything in sight, run out of gas, and then bam! a hiss of boos when Wheel resolves.
To quote you, "But when we have 1-2 cards and they have 7, we aren't landing lethal attacks :/" Pretty great upsides imo, and apparently the opinion of many blue players because I encountered it frequently when running grindier decks and would usually utter "dammit" when it resolved. Maybe I don't encounter Time Spiral as often piloting Rafiq because I am either pressuring them too hard or am just about out of cards so it's too disadvantageous for them.
I'm going to run Recurring Insight in 3 man pods online for a bit and see how often it's successful.
I'm also going to add Diminishing Returns and Time Reversal along side Day's Undoing so I hit a wheel more often just to see how well they perform before I pay $8 for Timetwister or $16 for Time Spiral.
The Temporal Mastery off of Noxious Revival is also facilitated by Looter il-Kor, Intuition, Fact or Fiction, Jace Architect, and Jace Prodigy.
Throw in Karmic Guide, Snapcaster, and Dig Through Time and voila, a mini gy theme yet still all really great spells on their own.
Update: Played a grindy game with a stalled board. Cast Diminishing Returns, next turn cast Recurring Insight. Drew 19 cards over 3 turns. Obviously a best case scenerio on my first try, but still pretty snazzy.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
The problem with wheel effects is you are measuring cards drawn for us, not card advantage. And the problems with them run deeper than just that. But let's begin with just CA. I want to preface this by mentioning the math works more in your favor playing in 3s rather than 4s, but the underlying principle of evaluation remains the same. We are looking at cards gained versus cards lost, and giving our opponents cards is a negative. If you cast a wheel effect with 2 cards in hand and each opponent with 5 card, you net draw 5 and your opponents collectively net draw 6. That is -1 card from the effect.
Just the basic math is not the end of the issue, either. From a tempo standpoint, outside of Spiral, which allows for an untap, we are giving our opponents the first opportunity to use the cards because we are the ones paying for the effect. Additionally, with the ease with which graveyards are utilized in the format, we are often giving them access to everything they had plus an additional seven cards each.
Looking then from the position of the other players' perspective, you have a few choices. The grindy incremental advantage decks dislike the resolution of wheel effects. As such, they have incentive to not allow it to resolve. Which can prevent if desired. Or they can simply respond by unloading all of their removal knowing they will be restocked.
The combo player has a wet dream about someone else casting a wheel effect. Against a tuned deck, casting a wheel and then passing the turn is not terribly dissimilar to conceding the game. This is worst case scenario.
Like, idk, maybe we play in vastly different metagames. Where I play, if you resolve a wheel effect, you need heavy stax or tax elements in place, because you are loading people with threats or answers and have spent your resources to do so. We play neither heavy stax nor tax. Unless we hit an extra turn effect that we can cast the same turn, this seems very weak.
Here's what I learned from watching red players: they aggro out, bolt everything in sight, damage one player but kill no one, try for a wheel, it's countered, and their game is over. They sit for 30-40 minutes watching everyone else play Magic and know they will never be a threat ever again in the game. My goal is to avoid having to resolve do-or-die spells on the early turns, while maintaining a high percentage of the ability to threaten early, and to maximize the ability to lethally strike whenever the opportunity presents itself.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Despite completely agreeing with your assessment, my direct experience has been more along the lines of "I have 2 cards in hand. My opponents have between 4-6 each. I cast a wheel backed by mana drain and now I have a full arsenal of cards to win with whereas before I had no win cards. I cast berserk on my already Rancor'd Rafiq, I win the stack war with Vines and Swan Song, I knock the biggest threat out of the game." I mean, I've swung for more with Lord of Extinction, but that just came outta nowhere. Audacious alpha strikes are probably the most rewarding moments in the game imo. The other guy in the game then proceeded to grind me out, but I regret nothing.
Now, maybe you're right and it's not necessary at all. Maybe I could have conserved that Mana Drain, tutored Berserk, filtered for Swan Song, and achieved the same result without the risk of giving my opponents more cards to stop me with.
In testing the wheels have been great in stalled games, especially against decks that have way better CA engines than me (which is most unless I get Selkie going or have plenty of dorks to clamp). Otherwise, yeah Recurring Insight has mostly been better. The main difference is that with a wheel I can occasionally win same turn (minus Day's Undoing).
Aside from just being really conservative, taking beats, and letting my opponents overextend so I can hit 'em hard with a Eldrazi Conscription or a devastating Austere Command, the best way I have discovered to stay in the CA game against decks with good draw engines is to get Selkie going. Sometimes it means committing every spell in my hand to protect and buff it, but when I get it going it's pretty nuts. There is definitely a high risk - high reward element to it all, but honestly that's why I find piloting Rafiq so exciting. While it's not as dynamic as my old Roon deck, there are two distinct modes of play. Kill everyone before they know what happened, or sit back and wait for the magic moment to unleash the epic face smash. One time I Sovereign triggered into Conscription, cast Might of Oaks, then Berserk. The life total of my opponent on the computer screen read -72. My opponent chatted "I've been waiting my whole life for someone to hit me that hard. Do you happen to be Chuck Norris irl?"
I know there was a big discussion about stax partially in an attempt to offset our apparent CA issue by stretching the game out, but from what I gathered it's just too big of a commitment to be optimal. I don't care much for Derevi stax, but I do liken Rafiq's potential to function similar to Brago in that we tax and lock while laboring to punch to activate triggers. So what are your thoughts on Cataclysm and Armageddon effects? And what about Silence and Orim's Chant. They seem like Time Walks against the best player at the table, and sometimes 1 more turn is all we need to knock 'em out.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Mrcoupon: your list plays more like Edric
Mcscoop: your playing 90% voltron, which is sorta a "combo" deck as you just described
If this is true, the wheel discernment makes sense. Not that I'm personally on board with the wheel idea but I can see what you're saying mcscoop, in that, at the very least, wheels are better in your build than mrcoupon's.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Seal of Removal is hecka versatile. Stops the early commanders who need tempo (Edric, Thada, etc), protects our guys if need be, and reuses effects like Snappy, Witness, GE Arch, and Sphinx. Seal was something I thought was basically a joke until I was finally convinced to just *try* it. Now it goes in almost all of my UG/x builds. Also another line of defense versus Lab Man. Hits as early as turn one, and fits its way into turns very, very easily.
Sphinx was not in my build when I was all-in aggro. But I found that such a build just doesn't clear competitive tables. We need cards. Plus he has a relevant body and built-in evasion. Block problematic fliers (not huge upside there, but it has come up) and smacks for 12 in the air. Also, we use our graveyard well, so the Fact or Fiction effects are strong.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Anecdotal evidence does not make for a good argument, but I simply want to highlight both the significantly higher upside and that yes, we indeed can abuse them. Also, this is where my list running cards like Sphinx works better to utilize the early colorless rituals. So it's probably tuned more towards my specific strategy, but I would rather build towards their power anyway.
Edit: I rarely struggle with colored mana, but it does happen. This deck, bc of how interesting the versatility of attack is, forces us to shift strategy frequently within the game to avoid running out of gas trying to push for a kill that we just don't have. So if I am hurting for a color, I tend to take a more control or midrange oriented approach. These are the games where Greaves shines the most.
Putrefax is interesting. He is a dead card more often than I typically allow my selections to be, but he is also a dead opponent more often than any of my other cards. He is an ace up the sleeve in my opinion. I hate to devote 5 mana to that, but he is so very deadly. And if our opponents can all block to prevent lethal, we don't cast him.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Hey man! Yeah agreed; automaton keeps us on curve with our beats, the free equip costs (etb or attack =O) lets us keep up mana for a counterspell while keeping pressure on during the early turns. Flail is great against blue players and gives us a semi-grand abolisher on any creature.
I dont think anyone has mentioned the 20 life change because we had mostly been discussing multiplayer and the OP had a multiplayer list.
And definitely share your list! The more conversation and discussion we can have about our beloved general, the more we can hopefully improve our own decks
I also see most of your decks aren't running Moxes. Is the card disadvantage not worth the acceleration?
I've been looking at a alot of Derevi and a lot of Edric lists. Mine is much closer to Edric right now, going for the extra turns combat damage win. I still have some more slots to change and I often wonder if just going Derevi or Edric would be the stronger game plan. Rafiq is near to my heart though haha. Always liked the idea of a competitive equipment based list.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
In
Edric, Spymaster of Trest :Double draw
Fyndhorn Elves :another ramp
Gaddock Teeg :Prohibit Big Spell(use for opponent with big spell)
Gilded Drake : play with chord of calling
Oracle of Mul Daya : Rush
Temur Sabertooth :another infinite mode with eternal witness or Archeomancer
Intuition :Infinite time package selection
Thalia, Heretic Cathar :Slow them down
Putrefax : Surprise
Gaea's Cradle : Ramp with many elf
Crop Rotation : search gaea cradle or rougue passsage
out
Walk the Aeons
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Consecrated Sphinx
Thassa, God of the Sea
Wargate
Nature's Lore
Three Visits
Fact or Fiction
Worldly Tutor
Yeah I am back and forth on the moxes. I think if you are in a combo heavy meta they might be necessary. I just hate the card disadvantage though, and where the deck sits, there aren't a lot of 2 drops to play. It's more common to go dork into 3 drop, or into 2 drop with mana open for interaction.
Lol I have been carving the internet of edric and derevi lists. I agree that mine is closer to edric as well. The biggest advantage we have over edric is that we aren't playing a bunch of 1/1's that are useless without our commander; our beaters have more functions. Instead of going for beefier beaters, I have opted for staxy hate bears, giving my opponents card disadvantage by turning off cards in their hand.
I am back and forth on rector. Yeah it is a great combo with EE, however every time I ran her, I just felt like i was lacking sac outlets. I think she's better if you are going with birthing pod and high market with small land support package. I recently built a dredge version of rafiq that has some stuff, although not nearly as competitive. If you are desperate for a creature sac outlet, I stumbled upon [[drowned rusalka]], which i didnt' even know existed.
Here are my current lists:
Dredge: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rafiqs-bearhug-of-pain-multiplayer-competit-copy/
Current (hate bear control): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rafiq-of-the-many-wins-edh/
Super hyper competitive (WIP): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rafiqs-bearhug-of-pain-multiplayer-competit-copy-2/
I've been considering [[dark depths]] as a new combo option. We can kill in 1 swing with liege + rafiq :eek::eek:. Also considering a [counterbalance] package.
Vegnus do you happen to have a full list somewhere? I think I missed it.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
Yeah haha I'm a little obsessed with trying to make rafiq work, what can i say
Curious how Yisan, the Wanderer Bard is working for you. He looks slow but a creature a turn could pay off in the long run?
How have you liked Conqueror's Flail? Makes rafiq into a two shot and stops answers while you're chaining extra turns seems good?
I definitely need to get a Noxious Revival in here.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
Stax in general is all about being able to break parity. Some generals do that very well like derevi or brago, whereas rafiq doesn't have much of a way to do that inso himself. I assume you are referring to the "hyper competitive" list, not my current one ( i think im running hokori in that one). The cedh meta has gotten full of dorks, moxes, etc, and so hokori and friends are more difficult to abuse with rafiq at the helm. Those would be great cards however if your meta is very heavy on land ramp v dorks. Static orb could be an interesting choice if you are going a more voltron route.
The way i try to break parity is by having more information than my opponents, fast ramp (dorks, other 0-1 mana rocks), and making sure it hurts them more than me (meta). Like I have less cards affected by gaddock teeg than a control list. Thalia is very strong against storm, and kataki against stax and other heavy artifact decks.
Noxious revival is amazing, I'd highly recommend running intuition with it,, as you can get any card in combination with eternal witness. You can also use it as grave hate against targeted reanimation.
Yisan and conqueror's flail are more recent adds that i haven't been able to test IRL. I saw yisan being played in cobblepot's karador list, and i figured id try it if he's able to run it with no ways to abuse it. However, he has better 1 drops to search for in his combo, so i really want to test yisan IRL. The best route for us might be dork/mother of runes, stoneforge/hate bear, E wit/selkie. But ya, not sure if mother of runes has the same power as viscera seer does in his combo list.
Just a warning but i have not been able to test this IRL for the past few months, I recently moved and started school again so I dont have time for FNM or know local players. I've just been goldfishing like a madman
PS: just saw your list, I love it, it looks like a blast! How have thassa, tamiyo, and medomai been working for you? Thanks for the shoutout too! Ive really been meaning to write up a primer here...(been saying that for the last year or so)
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
I've never played trailblazer boots but have considered it. I took out thassa awhile ago for similar reasons, the scry 1 each turn wasn't as good as i thought, and most of the time rafiq has the evasion he needs.
I had medomai too but it drew a lot of hate and i always tried to get it out t3 or 4. But its basically a win if you connect with rafiq out. Have you tried [[Identity thief]]? It lets you swing with medomai on your extra turns, abuse ETB effects (like E wit for time walk loops), or remove blockers for a turn (although you wouldn't be swinging with rafiq). Could be too cute however. How's venser been? Do you find you have enough targets for the +2?
Venser, the Sojourner has kept himself from being cut by enabling both unblockable and time warp chains. I like him quite a bit. He's currently my only way to take infinite turns.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
Have you been able to play the deck lately? How's it been running? Lol it's been soo long since i've been able to discuss rafiq with others...
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.