So I have been working for a while on my Mono-Black EDH deck. The main gameplan is to sacrifice as much as I can as often as I can to make bad things happen to my opponents.
Honestly? It doesn't matter too much which General I run with this deck. It's the enchantments and sac effects which do most of the dirty work.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - Ob Nixilis has got the alot going for himself:
+ He instantly shuts down your opponents' fetchlands and tutor effects the moment he hits the board.
+ He starts out as a 4/4 Flying Trampler and gets much bigger fast, he has great synergy with all sacrifice outlets and cards like Grave Pact (though try and protect him with Lightning Greaves if you can because he will become a target).
+ He combos with Maralen of the Mornsong to deal 13 damage and force a creature sacrifice (making him stronger) on each opponent's draw step.
+ He essentially turns Ghost Quarter into Strip Mine
Maralen of the Mornsong - Not a good contender as a commander, she allows you to tutor for Ob Nixilis, but she NEEDS him to be useful in this deck. If Ob were to get exiled, Maralen would just be giving power to your opponents, If it is the other way around, Ob still works as a big threatening fatty.
Erebos, God of the Dead - A strong contender for the throne, Erebos has pretty much the most relevent mix of abilities in the deck. Stopping your opponents from gaining life whilst running cards like Exquisite Blood and Bloodchief Ascension is just awesome, in addition to this he is a card draw engine. I suspect I should actually be running him as my general, but I really like demons :/
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief - Decent card, can kill invincible creatures and beat people in the face - hard. Doesn't mess with my opponents as much as Ob Nixilis, so she stays as part of the 99.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - Whilst a tutor in the command zone is tempting, i'm not much of a combo player (Infinite game ending combos, anyway). Also a few members of my playgroup are a bit sore over my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck and his tutor ability.
Ghoulcaller Gisa - My original commander for this decklist, I found that she dies too easily and spends most of her time being defended or tapped. The problem is that she is not a good card on her own, you need to feed her to make her work.
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen - Has cool abilities and gets big fast, but he has no evasion at all.
As you can see from the above decklist, I have included A LOT of sacrifice outlets. Cards like Blood Artist and Falkenrath Noble add value to every sacrifice. They also punish your enemies for attacking you or hating on your creatures.
Honorable Mention: Blood Seeker for punishing token swarm strategies. He does not provide lifegain with his punishment, but he ruins Krenko and Norin's fun.
Exquisite Blood and Bloodchief Ascension are just too good not to include, they add value to every interaction you have with your opponents and will win you the game if left unanswered.
Gameplan Part 2: Control the board
This deck is first and foremost a control deck, and cards like Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and Butcher of Malakir are going to do a lot of work in that area. Not only do you get even more value for each sacrifice you make when they are out, they stack so very well.
For instance, if you manage to get out both Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact, whilst sacrificing a 2/2 zombie to Ghoulcaller Gisa, each opponent will have to sacrifice two of their creatures, potentially triggering any number of effects from gameplan part 1 in the process AND you will have furthered your board state by doubling the power output of your original sacrifice... for one mana!
Mana is not really too much of a concern for Mono-Black players (more on that later), so mana intensive one sided board wipes like In Garruk's Wake and Necromantic Selection are perfectly feasable.
Mono-Black does have a huge weakness in EDH though, there is next to no enchantment and artifact destruction available to us. For this reason, I run Spine of Ish Sah, Argentum Armor and Nevinyrral's Disk.
Because of the parasitic lifegain in the deck, using your excess life total to draw cards just seems like good sense. Oversold Cemetery gives you free card advantage by returning your sacrificed creatures to your hand, it also makes it possible to evoke your Shriekmaw every turn.
Gameplan Part 4: Smash Face
Once the board is under control, what better way to finish them off than hitting them really hard until they stop squealing?
Mana Base
The above cards should be in every Mono-Black EDH deck. That is all.
Future Upgrades (Budget Permitting)
Demonic Tutor - Straight up upgrade for Diabolic Tutor Sorin Markov - All of his abilities are relevant, especially his second ability for insta-kill blowouts. Bitterblossom - PERFECT for this deck, but massively expensive at the moment, I am hoping for a reprint in MM2015. Damnation - Exactly the same description as Bitterblossom.
Anyway, that's the gist of it, if anybody has any suggestions for improvements that won't break the bank, please let me know!
Liliana of the Dark Realms is amazing in mono black control. I started playing magic back in 2005 and in my 60 card multiplayer mono black control deck I would run Thawing Glaciers to consistently rip swamps out of my deck, which would fuel "swamps matter" cards. Liliana is infinitely better at this than Glaciers is, and you can run both.
Land Tax + Scroll Rack is a strong and classic card advantage engine. However, it forces you to hold back your land production or at the very least use a lot of mana rocks to work around its trigger. Liliana of the dark Realms + Scroll Rack isn't the same, but it is quite similar and quite powerful.
Her ultimate is game ending. If you don't kill the table off with a big X spell, you should at least be able to turn the tide of the game heavily in your favor to set up a win the next turn. I have never lost a game where I resolved Liliana of the Dark Realms. She is that good.
If you are playing Liliana Vess for the tutor, I can tell you first hand that in mono black, I always want Planar Portal before Vess. It works at instant speed, is more resilient/harder to destroy, and puts the card in your hand. Even you said that in mono black, big mana isn't a big deal. That is just what the color does. I would rather have Dark Realms in play over Vess, and would rather top deck Dark Realms late game as she can be a removal spell or a pump spell to attack for the win out of no where with her middle ability.
======================
Nim Deathmantle is such an underrated card that gives you a ton of long term card advantage. Especially when you are already sacrificing for profit. how much better does it get when you can get the creature you sacrificed right back instead of losing it to the graveyard? How much better when that creature comes back with +2/+2? how much better is it when that creature has a "dies" or EtB trigger? Evoke Shriekmaw for 1B, pay 4 to get it back for a second EtB trigger and a 5/4 with fear.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Gotta say, I disagree completely with the idea that Liliana of the Dark Realms is that good in multiplayer EDH.
First off, as we have both asserted, mono black needs no help when it comes to mana. My current ramp package is good enough that I can consistently generate more mana than I need at most points of the game.
But my biggest problem is that she only has 3 base loyalty, aside from the fact that her second ability would kill her the moment it came out (turning her into a four CMC Murder), if i play her, +1 her then pass the turn in a 5 player EDH game, she will probably not survive to see the next turn. In that case I would have spent 4 mana to tutor a Swamp, yay.
As for Liliana Vess, her starting loyalty is 5, which is much more survivable in a multiplayer environment. In addition to this, ALL of her abilities are relevant to this deck: her +1 provides good card advantage over your most threatening opponent, her -2 provides tutoring (and can be activated twice and still not kill her from base loyalty) and her ultimate is game ending. Considering I will have been filling all the graveyards with Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos, Butcher of Malakir ect. a Rise of the Dark Realms is the perfect finisher. Liliana of the Dark Realms' ultimate depends on you having a game finisher in hand, and offers no means to tutor it.
Nim Deathmantle is a brilliant include though, I will definitely grab a copy for this deck, thanks!
Ah, mono-Black. How I remember playing you with such joy when I first started out my EDH career.
I like the deck. It has a lot of good synergy and some good niche cards that I wouldn't have heard about otherwise. I am puzzled a bit by the lack of mana doublers outside of Crypt Ghast. Some classic ones are Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun, Nirkana Revenant, and Extraplanar Lens. Is the lack of these cards due to availability or due to preference?
I did previously have Caged Sun in this build, but I decided I didn't need some of the more expensive doublers in the deck due to the fairly low mana curve (the average CMC of my current build is 3.24). There are only 9 cards in the deck with a higher CMC than 6 (one of which is Avatar of Woe, who more often than not gets played as a two drop), and two X spells to sink all that excess mana into.
Of those card mentioned, Nirkana Revenant appeals to me the most as you can dump all your excess mana into her secondary ability to get the most advantage out of the doubling. If i get the chance I will snatch one up for testing.
Okay, I just came here to help and give advice as someone with 11 years of experience playing mono black in its various forms. I have to ask if you have actually played with Liliana of the Dark Realms, or are simply hypothesizing? If you haven't actually used her, then that is your first mistake. If you have and she doesn't work for you, then okay. If not, then you really just don't know. (It is afunny video, don't take it personally, just have a laugh.)
Let me put it this way: What are mono black control's goals? What are it's strengths and weaknesses? How does it try to win? What cards help it achive its goals?
- Black can answer graveyard recursion and graveyard threats better than any other color. If you lose to graveyard combo, you are doing it wrong.
- Black can answer creatures, be they Voltron beat down, mid range agro, or token swarms, Black can answer anything. Even if Iona, Shield of Emeria comes into paly naming black, you should have enough Unstable Obelisk, Perilous Vault, and Steel Hellkite type cards to deal with problems in your deck to not get locked out of the game.
- Black can draw all the cards it could ever want, so you should never run out of gas.
- Now more than ever, black has plenty of ways of gaining lost life back. From the classic Drain Life, from which I get my screen name to countless other cards, you have no excuse to die from the damage you deal to yourself over the course of a game.
- Black has so many great cards to choose from that it should make picking what you want more difficult than finding what is good. I personally like to swap win conditions in and out of my deck just to keep things fresh.
A good game of Commander for mono black probably looks something like this:
Early turns: build up your resorces and utility cards.
mid game: Answer threats, produce threats of your own.
late game: Reach critical mass and start landing the big punches. Mass discard spells like Mind Twist, Mind Shatter, Mind Sludge, Wit's End (especially cast through a Boseiju, Who Shelters All) or even Myojin of Night's Reach should clear a path for your Exsanguinates and Consume Spirits. Even if those Drain Life spells don't end the game, they will swing the life total in your favor enough to buy you another turn to win the game, and seeing how you ripped your opponent's hand apart, they are unlikely going to do much of anything but say "draw-go."
When building mono black control, keep those ideas in mind and balance your deck accordingly and you will do just fine.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
The thing is, I want my deck to play out how I laid it in my original post, using small sacrifice based plays to control the board whilst I build a game ending threat.
If everybody built decks the same way, the format would become stale. My meta is based more on experimentation and creating interesting interactions, rather than a bunch of spike players trying to win via the most efficient plays.
All I was saying is that Liliana of the Dark Realms doesn't fit MY deck and what I am trying to do. I'm sure your methods are better, but it is just not for me.
if you use Maralen of the Mornsong as your commander instead, she comes out earlier, she neuters excessive drawing from opposing blue players early, and searches for ob nixilis without problem. i'm not sure how often you'd wanna play it this way; might get boring quick i suppose.
Maralen has become a better general option since tuck got neutered for sure, previously I would have been too worried that someone would just tutor Oblation on their first non-draw and then she would be gone. She still allows my opponents to seek out their most threatening cards though, so I would rather keep her off the board until I had Ob Nixilis out.
Stopping excessive card draw would be nice, but I feel like she would not be able to survive long on her own.
That is all fine and great. You came and posted a MBC list. I love MBC. I want to help out a fellow MBC player build a better deck and have fun. I saw you undervaluing LotDR and wanted to help change your opinion on the card. You are aggressively resisting the very idea of using her and I just don't get it. I have one more responce and then I will shut up about the card.
You say in a multiplayer game they will kill her. That argument can be made of nearly every card ever printed except for maybe Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Not to mention that your deck appears to have a lot of creatures and ways to protect her from dying in combat. You then said she is a spike card. How is she in any way a spike card? She is only good in one type of deck - Casual Mono Black control. Not even tournament level mono black. She costs too much mana and does too little for fast paced competitive tournament duel play. She isn't even good enough for competitive EDH because those decks just win on turn three with a combo. I feel that she fits exactly what you are trying to do, and you just can't see it.
Have you thought about upgrading Underworld Connections to Graveborn Muse? I don't like tying up a land with Underworld Connections and Graveborn muse is a 3/3 body that can potentially draw you a lot of cards in a single turn and attack with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I'm sorry you think I was being aggressive, I was simply explaining my original statement about why I preferred Vess.
If anything, you are being aggressive by coming on to my thread and posting stupid videos about how "I don't know" and telling me "I just can't see it".
I was just trying to throw some humor into the mix. I apologize for that if it was taken the wrong way. My friends and I talk like that all the time, and when we text we like to send videos. I haven't commented much about the rest of the deck other than a couple of things because the list looks solid and well built. Especially for playing on a budget. There are better cards out there, but they come with big price tags, and I am pretty sure I don't have to tell you what they are ;).
Are you interested in infinite combos? I don't think you are, but if so, I can give you some budget combos, or at least what I think are budget.
This is a combo I discovered in 2007 and used in my Vintage deck as sideboard tech in my Null Rod agro deck, but it wasn't until 2009 or so that Legacy players caught on and tried to use it, causing the price of Helm to go from like $1.50 to $30+ at one point, and because it isn't actually competitively good, it has crashed down to about $10. It is still a two card game winning combo because you can set the helm to 1, and the card never goes to the graveyard because of Leyline of the Void, so Helm repeats the process indefinitely. Even if they have Darksteel Colossus in their deck, accoridng to the rules (141.7 I think) when there is an infinite combo and the player has a choice ot make, they eventually have to choose the option that ends the infinite loop/end the game. Because Leyline and the colossus both have replacement effects, your opponent has to chose which replacement effect to use, and thus eventually must choose to resolve leyline.
Geralf's Messenger ($3) + Nim Deathmantle ($1.50) + Ashnod's Altar ($1-$5) = infinite sacrifices, infinite EtB triggers and as a result infinite 2 damage to one opponent at a time, which will kill everyone but you.
The first time you sacrifice Geralf's Messenger to Ashnod's Altar, you get 2 and undying triggers. That lets you sacrifice it again to get an additional 2, for a total of 4, which cna then be used to pay for Nim Deathmantle's trigger, returning Geralf's Messenger to pay without a +1/+1 counter, so that you can again sacrifice it and trigger undying.
Rings of Brighthearth is a $20 card that works with countless cards, evne in mono black and is a great addition to any deck allowing you to double all non-mana activated abilities. That is why it costs so much and is worth every penny. Additionally, if you combine it with Basalt Monolith ($1) you can get infinite colorless mana. If you add in a third card, Deserted Temple ($6) you can target a basic swamp, then copy the untap ability targeting itself and essentially filter the infinite colorless mana into infinite black mana. Without Basalt Monolith, if you just have Rings and the Temple, you can also use Cabal Coffers + 6 swamps to generate infinite black mana. If you also have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play, you cna get to infinite mana with fewer lands in play.
Again I know you are looking to play casually and respect that. I do the same and currently only run the infinite mana combo above and I never tutor it out, I just use each of those individual pieces because they are all good on their own in different ways, and if they all come together, I can just end the game. I actually use the Leyline combo in my Orzhov WB deck along side Rest in Peace ($1.50), which can also combo out with the Helm.
============================
One of the beautiful things about Mono Black Control is that there are so many good cards available for it that you can build it a number of different ways, but no matter which way you build it or how budget your deck is, it still has the same end game in mind. Control the table, reach critical mass and kill the opposition. Your path to that end game can come through a variety of cards, but we all end up at the same finish line.
-Kagemaro, first to Suffer is a classic MBC commander option giving you consistent access to removal, and even in part of the 99 card deck it is strong. With graveyard recursion, you have repeatable access to board wipes. With Nim Deathmantle in play, you can sacrifice Kagemaro for B, then pay 4 to return it to play, then the activated ability resolves and Kagemaro stays alive because it has +2/+2 from Nim Deathmantle.
-Soul of Innistrad is my personal favorite of the Soul cycle from M15. It i a big nasty 6/6 with death touch and the words "ANSWER ME" stamped all across it's text box. It is pretty much too good for its own good. howeve,r it serves as removal bait and a great distration. If they don't deal with it, the three-for-zero card advantage you should get out of its activated ability should turn games heavily in your favor. Even if they do kill or counter it, so long as it wasn't hit with a Path to Exile type effect, it can still be used as a three-for-zero activation out of the graveyard.
-Harvester of Souls is a card I think you would really get some quality use out of. You are already sacrificing for profit, here is MOAR PROFIT!
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Sepulchral Primordial seems really good here. It steals all of the stuff you've killed and has awesome synergy with Nim Deathmantle, Doomed Necromancer, and other recursion. Have you tried Decree of Pain? It's a mana intensive board wipe, but it's fairly one sided. I second the notion that Harvester of Souls is awesome. It it seems too pricey, Grim Haruspex costs less mana and does the same thing; it just doesn't beat as much face. You can always add both(:
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Avatar by Disappointing Signet Inc
EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
Thanks for the suggestions guys, I have indeed made a few orders for this deck, and Harvester of Souls is on it's way.
I think I will add Sepulchral Primordial to my buy list though, that seems like it could be a good include (possibly to replace Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni)
1x Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
Creature (31)
1x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Avatar of Woe
1x Blood Artist
1x Blood Seeker
1x Bloodgift Demon
1x Bloodthrone Vampire
1x Bone Shredder
1x Brood of Cockroaches
1x Butcher of Malakir
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Deathbringer Regent
1x Disciple of Bolas
1x Doomed Necromancer
1x Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Falkenrath Noble
1x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Ghoulcaller Gisa
1x Grave Titan
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Harvester of Souls
1x Hell's Caretaker
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Nekrataal
1x Nether Traitor
1x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Shriekmaw
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Soldevi Adnate
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Attrition
1x Bloodchief Ascension
1x Dictate of Erebos
1x Exquisite Blood
1x Oversold Cemetery
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
Sorcery (10)
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Demonic Collusion
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Dread Return
1x Exsanguinate
1x Extinction
1x In Garruk's Wake
1x Living Death
1x Mutilate
1x Victimize
Instant (2)
1x Dark Ritual
1x Dismember
Planeswalker (3)
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana Vess
1x Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Artifact (10)
1x Blade of the Bloodchief
1x Caged Sun
1x Elbrus, the Binding Blade Flip
1x Expedition Map
1x Lashwrithe
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Arcane Lighthouse
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Crypt of Agadeem
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Reliquary Tower
27x Swamp
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Honestly? It doesn't matter too much which General I run with this deck. It's the enchantments and sac effects which do most of the dirty work.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - Ob Nixilis has got the alot going for himself:
+ He instantly shuts down your opponents' fetchlands and tutor effects the moment he hits the board.
+ He starts out as a 4/4 Flying Trampler and gets much bigger fast, he has great synergy with all sacrifice outlets and cards like Grave Pact (though try and protect him with Lightning Greaves if you can because he will become a target).
+ He combos with Maralen of the Mornsong to deal 13 damage and force a creature sacrifice (making him stronger) on each opponent's draw step.
+ He essentially turns Ghost Quarter into Strip Mine
Maralen of the Mornsong - Not a good contender as a commander, she allows you to tutor for Ob Nixilis, but she NEEDS him to be useful in this deck. If Ob were to get exiled, Maralen would just be giving power to your opponents, If it is the other way around, Ob still works as a big threatening fatty.
Erebos, God of the Dead - A strong contender for the throne, Erebos has pretty much the most relevent mix of abilities in the deck. Stopping your opponents from gaining life whilst running cards like Exquisite Blood and Bloodchief Ascension is just awesome, in addition to this he is a card draw engine. I suspect I should actually be running him as my general, but I really like demons :/
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief - Decent card, can kill invincible creatures and beat people in the face - hard. Doesn't mess with my opponents as much as Ob Nixilis, so she stays as part of the 99.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - Whilst a tutor in the command zone is tempting, i'm not much of a combo player (Infinite game ending combos, anyway). Also a few members of my playgroup are a bit sore over my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck and his tutor ability.
Ghoulcaller Gisa - My original commander for this decklist, I found that she dies too easily and spends most of her time being defended or tapped. The problem is that she is not a good card on her own, you need to feed her to make her work.
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen - Has cool abilities and gets big fast, but he has no evasion at all.
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni - Ninjitsu only works from the hand...
As you can see from the above decklist, I have included A LOT of sacrifice outlets. Cards like Blood Artist and Falkenrath Noble add value to every sacrifice. They also punish your enemies for attacking you or hating on your creatures.
Honorable Mention: Blood Seeker for punishing token swarm strategies. He does not provide lifegain with his punishment, but he ruins Krenko and Norin's fun.
Exquisite Blood and Bloodchief Ascension are just too good not to include, they add value to every interaction you have with your opponents and will win you the game if left unanswered.
This deck is first and foremost a control deck, and cards like Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos and Butcher of Malakir are going to do a lot of work in that area. Not only do you get even more value for each sacrifice you make when they are out, they stack so very well.
For instance, if you manage to get out both Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact, whilst sacrificing a 2/2 zombie to Ghoulcaller Gisa, each opponent will have to sacrifice two of their creatures, potentially triggering any number of effects from gameplan part 1 in the process AND you will have furthered your board state by doubling the power output of your original sacrifice... for one mana!
Mana is not really too much of a concern for Mono-Black players (more on that later), so mana intensive one sided board wipes like In Garruk's Wake and Necromantic Selection are perfectly feasable.
Mono-Black does have a huge weakness in EDH though, there is next to no enchantment and artifact destruction available to us. For this reason, I run Spine of Ish Sah, Argentum Armor and Nevinyrral's Disk.
Nevinyrral's Disk also works alongside Black Sun's Zenith as my 'big red panic buttons', for when everything is going wrong.
Because of the parasitic lifegain in the deck, using your excess life total to draw cards just seems like good sense. Oversold Cemetery gives you free card advantage by returning your sacrificed creatures to your hand, it also makes it possible to evoke your Shriekmaw every turn.
Once the board is under control, what better way to finish them off than hitting them really hard until they stop squealing?
The above cards should be in every Mono-Black EDH deck. That is all.
Demonic Tutor - Straight up upgrade for Diabolic Tutor
Sorin Markov - All of his abilities are relevant, especially his second ability for insta-kill blowouts.
Bitterblossom - PERFECT for this deck, but massively expensive at the moment, I am hoping for a reprint in MM2015.
Damnation - Exactly the same description as Bitterblossom.
Anyway, that's the gist of it, if anybody has any suggestions for improvements that won't break the bank, please let me know!
- Archfiend of Depravity
- Demon of Wailing Agonies
- Rise from the Grave
- Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
- Nettlevine Blight
- Malicious Affliction
+ Bone Shredder
+ Attrition
+ Nim Deathmantle
+ Reassembling Skeleton
+ Hell's Caretaker
+ Brood of Cockroaches
===============================
Liliana of the Dark Realms is amazing in mono black control. I started playing magic back in 2005 and in my 60 card multiplayer mono black control deck I would run Thawing Glaciers to consistently rip swamps out of my deck, which would fuel "swamps matter" cards. Liliana is infinitely better at this than Glaciers is, and you can run both.
Land Tax + Scroll Rack is a strong and classic card advantage engine. However, it forces you to hold back your land production or at the very least use a lot of mana rocks to work around its trigger. Liliana of the dark Realms + Scroll Rack isn't the same, but it is quite similar and quite powerful.
Her ultimate is game ending. If you don't kill the table off with a big X spell, you should at least be able to turn the tide of the game heavily in your favor to set up a win the next turn. I have never lost a game where I resolved Liliana of the Dark Realms. She is that good.
If you are playing Liliana Vess for the tutor, I can tell you first hand that in mono black, I always want Planar Portal before Vess. It works at instant speed, is more resilient/harder to destroy, and puts the card in your hand. Even you said that in mono black, big mana isn't a big deal. That is just what the color does. I would rather have Dark Realms in play over Vess, and would rather top deck Dark Realms late game as she can be a removal spell or a pump spell to attack for the win out of no where with her middle ability.
======================
Nim Deathmantle is such an underrated card that gives you a ton of long term card advantage. Especially when you are already sacrificing for profit. how much better does it get when you can get the creature you sacrificed right back instead of losing it to the graveyard? How much better when that creature comes back with +2/+2? how much better is it when that creature has a "dies" or EtB trigger? Evoke Shriekmaw for 1B, pay 4 to get it back for a second EtB trigger and a 5/4 with fear.
First off, as we have both asserted, mono black needs no help when it comes to mana. My current ramp package is good enough that I can consistently generate more mana than I need at most points of the game.
But my biggest problem is that she only has 3 base loyalty, aside from the fact that her second ability would kill her the moment it came out (turning her into a four CMC Murder), if i play her, +1 her then pass the turn in a 5 player EDH game, she will probably not survive to see the next turn. In that case I would have spent 4 mana to tutor a Swamp, yay.
As for Liliana Vess, her starting loyalty is 5, which is much more survivable in a multiplayer environment. In addition to this, ALL of her abilities are relevant to this deck: her +1 provides good card advantage over your most threatening opponent, her -2 provides tutoring (and can be activated twice and still not kill her from base loyalty) and her ultimate is game ending. Considering I will have been filling all the graveyards with Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos, Butcher of Malakir ect. a Rise of the Dark Realms is the perfect finisher. Liliana of the Dark Realms' ultimate depends on you having a game finisher in hand, and offers no means to tutor it.
Nim Deathmantle is a brilliant include though, I will definitely grab a copy for this deck, thanks!
I like the deck. It has a lot of good synergy and some good niche cards that I wouldn't have heard about otherwise. I am puzzled a bit by the lack of mana doublers outside of Crypt Ghast. Some classic ones are Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun, Nirkana Revenant, and Extraplanar Lens. Is the lack of these cards due to availability or due to preference?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Of those card mentioned, Nirkana Revenant appeals to me the most as you can dump all your excess mana into her secondary ability to get the most advantage out of the doubling. If i get the chance I will snatch one up for testing.
Okay, I just came here to help and give advice as someone with 11 years of experience playing mono black in its various forms. I have to ask if you have actually played with Liliana of the Dark Realms, or are simply hypothesizing? If you haven't actually used her, then that is your first mistake. If you have and she doesn't work for you, then okay. If not, then you really just don't know. (It is afunny video, don't take it personally, just have a laugh.)
Let me put it this way: What are mono black control's goals? What are it's strengths and weaknesses? How does it try to win? What cards help it achive its goals?
- Black can answer graveyard recursion and graveyard threats better than any other color. If you lose to graveyard combo, you are doing it wrong.
- Black can answer creatures, be they Voltron beat down, mid range agro, or token swarms, Black can answer anything. Even if Iona, Shield of Emeria comes into paly naming black, you should have enough Unstable Obelisk, Perilous Vault, and Steel Hellkite type cards to deal with problems in your deck to not get locked out of the game.
- Black can draw all the cards it could ever want, so you should never run out of gas.
- Now more than ever, black has plenty of ways of gaining lost life back. From the classic Drain Life, from which I get my screen name to countless other cards, you have no excuse to die from the damage you deal to yourself over the course of a game.
- Black has so many great cards to choose from that it should make picking what you want more difficult than finding what is good. I personally like to swap win conditions in and out of my deck just to keep things fresh.
A good game of Commander for mono black probably looks something like this:
Early turns: build up your resorces and utility cards.
mid game: Answer threats, produce threats of your own.
late game: Reach critical mass and start landing the big punches. Mass discard spells like Mind Twist, Mind Shatter, Mind Sludge, Wit's End (especially cast through a Boseiju, Who Shelters All) or even Myojin of Night's Reach should clear a path for your Exsanguinates and Consume Spirits. Even if those Drain Life spells don't end the game, they will swing the life total in your favor enough to buy you another turn to win the game, and seeing how you ripped your opponent's hand apart, they are unlikely going to do much of anything but say "draw-go."
When building mono black control, keep those ideas in mind and balance your deck accordingly and you will do just fine.
If everybody built decks the same way, the format would become stale. My meta is based more on experimentation and creating interesting interactions, rather than a bunch of spike players trying to win via the most efficient plays.
All I was saying is that Liliana of the Dark Realms doesn't fit MY deck and what I am trying to do. I'm sure your methods are better, but it is just not for me.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Stopping excessive card draw would be nice, but I feel like she would not be able to survive long on her own.
You say in a multiplayer game they will kill her. That argument can be made of nearly every card ever printed except for maybe Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Not to mention that your deck appears to have a lot of creatures and ways to protect her from dying in combat. You then said she is a spike card. How is she in any way a spike card? She is only good in one type of deck - Casual Mono Black control. Not even tournament level mono black. She costs too much mana and does too little for fast paced competitive tournament duel play. She isn't even good enough for competitive EDH because those decks just win on turn three with a combo. I feel that she fits exactly what you are trying to do, and you just can't see it.
==============================================================
Have you thought about upgrading Underworld Connections to Graveborn Muse? I don't like tying up a land with Underworld Connections and Graveborn muse is a 3/3 body that can potentially draw you a lot of cards in a single turn and attack with.
If anything, you are being aggressive by coming on to my thread and posting stupid videos about how "I don't know" and telling me "I just can't see it".
Are you interested in infinite combos? I don't think you are, but if so, I can give you some budget combos, or at least what I think are budget.
Leyline of the Void ($4) + Helm of Obedience ($10) = infinite mil
This is a combo I discovered in 2007 and used in my Vintage deck as sideboard tech in my Null Rod agro deck, but it wasn't until 2009 or so that Legacy players caught on and tried to use it, causing the price of Helm to go from like $1.50 to $30+ at one point, and because it isn't actually competitively good, it has crashed down to about $10. It is still a two card game winning combo because you can set the helm to 1, and the card never goes to the graveyard because of Leyline of the Void, so Helm repeats the process indefinitely. Even if they have Darksteel Colossus in their deck, accoridng to the rules (141.7 I think) when there is an infinite combo and the player has a choice ot make, they eventually have to choose the option that ends the infinite loop/end the game. Because Leyline and the colossus both have replacement effects, your opponent has to chose which replacement effect to use, and thus eventually must choose to resolve leyline.
Geralf's Messenger ($3) + Nim Deathmantle ($1.50) + Ashnod's Altar ($1-$5) = infinite sacrifices, infinite EtB triggers and as a result infinite 2 damage to one opponent at a time, which will kill everyone but you.
The first time you sacrifice Geralf's Messenger to Ashnod's Altar, you get 2 and undying triggers. That lets you sacrifice it again to get an additional 2, for a total of 4, which cna then be used to pay for Nim Deathmantle's trigger, returning Geralf's Messenger to pay without a +1/+1 counter, so that you can again sacrifice it and trigger undying.
Rings of Brighthearth is a $20 card that works with countless cards, evne in mono black and is a great addition to any deck allowing you to double all non-mana activated abilities. That is why it costs so much and is worth every penny. Additionally, if you combine it with Basalt Monolith ($1) you can get infinite colorless mana. If you add in a third card, Deserted Temple ($6) you can target a basic swamp, then copy the untap ability targeting itself and essentially filter the infinite colorless mana into infinite black mana. Without Basalt Monolith, if you just have Rings and the Temple, you can also use Cabal Coffers + 6 swamps to generate infinite black mana. If you also have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play, you cna get to infinite mana with fewer lands in play.
Again I know you are looking to play casually and respect that. I do the same and currently only run the infinite mana combo above and I never tutor it out, I just use each of those individual pieces because they are all good on their own in different ways, and if they all come together, I can just end the game. I actually use the Leyline combo in my Orzhov WB deck along side Rest in Peace ($1.50), which can also combo out with the Helm.
============================
One of the beautiful things about Mono Black Control is that there are so many good cards available for it that you can build it a number of different ways, but no matter which way you build it or how budget your deck is, it still has the same end game in mind. Control the table, reach critical mass and kill the opposition. Your path to that end game can come through a variety of cards, but we all end up at the same finish line.
Three budget creature options to think about are: Kagemaro, First to Suffer ($1.25), Soul of Innistrad ($2.50), and Harvester of Souls ($1).
-Kagemaro, first to Suffer is a classic MBC commander option giving you consistent access to removal, and even in part of the 99 card deck it is strong. With graveyard recursion, you have repeatable access to board wipes. With Nim Deathmantle in play, you can sacrifice Kagemaro for B, then pay 4 to return it to play, then the activated ability resolves and Kagemaro stays alive because it has +2/+2 from Nim Deathmantle.
-Soul of Innistrad is my personal favorite of the Soul cycle from M15. It i a big nasty 6/6 with death touch and the words "ANSWER ME" stamped all across it's text box. It is pretty much too good for its own good. howeve,r it serves as removal bait and a great distration. If they don't deal with it, the three-for-zero card advantage you should get out of its activated ability should turn games heavily in your favor. Even if they do kill or counter it, so long as it wasn't hit with a Path to Exile type effect, it can still be used as a three-for-zero activation out of the graveyard.
-Harvester of Souls is a card I think you would really get some quality use out of. You are already sacrificing for profit, here is MOAR PROFIT!
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
I think I will add Sepulchral Primordial to my buy list though, that seems like it could be a good include (possibly to replace Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni)
Other changes include Graveborn Muse over Underworld Connections as suggested by Drain Life and Deathbringer Regent over Necromantic Selection for a few reasons:
- Has a second mode where it can be played without the board wipe
- Does not exile itself and can be recurred from the graveyard via Oversold Cemetery and Phyrexian Reclamation (another new include)
- Brings two B devotion along to the party for Erebos, God of the Dead and Gray Merchant of Asphodel