EDIT: Looks like you've already noticed the spoiler in another thread. Do you think you'll be replacing Thought Reflection with the Archive or just supplementing Thought Reflection with it?
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I've spent the last hour or so crying tears of blood that I'm going to have to get my hands on 2 mythics from the next set.
This is worse than than Thought Reflection for me I think because the lifegain isn't worth as much as being findable with Academy Rector. But redundancy on a lower mana cost is definitely good.
Starfield of Nyx is worse than Opalescence for me I think because I need a big board before it does Opalescence, but that recursion is nice, particularly if I'm being abusive and just discarding to hand size. I'm less sold on this one than on the archive, but I'm still hoping to get one and try it out.
Why must I spend so much money on cardboard!?
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I've spent the last hour or so crying tears of blood that I'm going to have to get my hands on 2 mythics from the next set.
This is worse than than Thought Reflection for me I think because the lifegain isn't worth as much as being findable with Academy Rector. But redundancy on a lower mana cost is definitely good.
Starfield of Nyx is worse than Opalescence for me I think because I need a big board before it does Opalescence, but that recursion is nice, particularly if I'm being abusive and just discarding to hand size. I'm less sold on this one than on the archive, but I'm still hoping to get one and try it out.
Why must I spend so much money on cardboard!?
Just wait a few weeks after release before purchasing anything. Almost all prerelease and release card prices are heavily inflated to match the excitement and hype of players wanting to get their hands on new toys. The biggest authenticator of a pricy Magic card at release is actually that card's relevance in Standard. Alhammarret's Archive and Starfield of Nyx are both cards that, while awesome, will likely have little to no impact on Standard and therefore their prices will remain fairly low. I'd wager that you'll be able to easily pick up the two cards together for less than $10.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Yeah, I suppose. It's just a tad overwhelming that I'm already in a "hmmmm, look at all these toys I want to try" state of mind, and then they print two mythics for me.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
An awesome list. I've been searching for ways to make my Zedruu deck much more fun, and I've adapted many of your ideas. In trying some things out, I've come across a rules quandary, and I think you might have some answers.
Suppose you have both Opalescence and March of the Machines on the battlefield. Say you also have some third enchantment, in this example, Jeskai Ascendency. You also have a mana rock in play, like Gilded Lotus. Now, March of the Machines, Jeskai Ascendency, and Gilded Lotus are all creatures with power and toughness equal to their converted mana costs, and they retain all of their abilities.
Now suppose you cast a mass copy effect on any of these newly animated cards, like casting Infinite Reflection on Jeskai Ascendency. We are left with a layers nightmare, which I can't make sense of. I'm trying to figure out what properties each card is left with.
Here's my understanding. Jeskai Ascendecy's being a creature is dependent upon Opalescence, so this must happen first in order for Infinite Reflection to target Jeskai Ascendency. But Infinite Reflection can't make the copies yet, because March of the Machines changes the size of the set of objects being changed, so Infinite Reflection is next dependent upon March of the Machine's ability. Since there are no other dependencies, everything happens in order. Infinite Reflection makes all other creatures a copy of Jeskai Ascendency. At this point, March of the Machines and Gilded Lotus are both Jeskai Ascendency creatures with power and toughness equal to JA's cmc, or 3. They do not retain their old abilities. Now, even though March of the Machines does not have its original ability (it's now a JA), its effect still happens, because everything else was dependent on it.
So, what we are left with is a Gilded Lotus that is now a 3/3 creature Jeskai Ascendency, with only JA's abilities, a March of the Machines that's now also a 3/3 JA creature with only JA's abilities, the original JA with Infinite Reflection attached, and Opalescence.
What does everybody think? Is this correct? I assume the same would happen for Mirrorweave, or if they were different artifacts and enchantments like Thought Reflection or Sword of Feast and Famine.
I bring this question up because I could not find anything online, and because I'd like to commend you on a fun list that has inspired new ideas for me.
An awesome list. I've been searching for ways to make my Zedruu deck much more fun, and I've adapted many of your ideas. In trying some things out, I've come across a rules quandary, and I think you might have some answers.
Suppose you have both Opalescence and March of the Machines on the battlefield. Say you also have some third enchantment, in this example, Jeskai Ascendency. You also have a mana rock in play, like Gilded Lotus. Now, March of the Machines, Jeskai Ascendency, and Gilded Lotus are all creatures with power and toughness equal to their converted mana costs, and they retain all of their abilities.
Now suppose you cast a mass copy effect on any of these newly animated cards, like casting Infinite Reflection on Jeskai Ascendency. We are left with a layers nightmare, which I can't make sense of. I'm trying to figure out what properties each card is left with.
Here's my understanding. Jeskai Ascendecy's being a creature is dependent upon Opalescence, so this must happen first in order for Infinite Reflection to target Jeskai Ascendency. But Infinite Reflection can't make the copies yet, because March of the Machines changes the size of the set of objects being changed, so Infinite Reflection is next dependent upon March of the Machine's ability. Since there are no other dependencies, everything happens in order. Infinite Reflection makes all other creatures a copy of Jeskai Ascendency. At this point, March of the Machines and Gilded Lotus are both Jeskai Ascendency creatures with power and toughness equal to JA's cmc, or 3. They do not retain their old abilities. Now, even though March of the Machines does not have its original ability (it's now a JA), its effect still happens, because everything else was dependent on it.
So, what we are left with is a Gilded Lotus that is now a 3/3 creature Jeskai Ascendency, with only JA's abilities, a March of the Machines that's now also a 3/3 JA creature with only JA's abilities, the original JA with Infinite Reflection attached, and Opalescence.
What does everybody think? Is this correct? I assume the same would happen for Mirrorweave, or if they were different artifacts and enchantments like Thought Reflection or Sword of Feast and Famine.
I bring this question up because I could not find anything online, and because I'd like to commend you on a fun list that has inspired new ideas for me.
a) Thank you! I'm quite proud of this deck and appreciate your appreciation.
b) Yes, when Infinite Reflections enters, it will make all creatures you control a copy of Jeskai Ascendancy. It does not actually make them 3/3 creatures, it just makes them exact copies of Jeskai Ascendancy (Color, mana cost, abilities, name, the things you get from the card itself). So Gilded Lotus, March of the Machines, and Jeskai Ascendancy are all now Jeskai Ascendancy, which are all creatures because Opalescence is still around doing its thing. If you lose Opalescence later, all the copies of Jeskai Ascendancy stop being creatures. Similarly, if you have 2 Opalescence before playing Infinite Reflection, the Opalescences become Jeskai Ascendancies, and thus none of them are creatures and Infinite Reflections falls off (though that does not stop its effect. Anything Infinite Reflections changes stays that way even if the aura dies.)
And yes, March of the Machines effect no longer applies, but you've turned every artifact you control into a Jeskai Ascendancy by the time the game notices that it is gone, so the Gilded Lotus is still a Jeskai Ascendancy creature.
I have learned (and am still learning) a whole lot of rules interactions for this deck that I otherwise never needed to know.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
If you cast Infinite Reflection on Jeskai Ascendancy with both Starfield of Nyx and Opalescence in play making Jeskai Ascendancy a legal target, Infinite Reflection will turn Starfield of Nyx and Opalescence into copies of Jeskai Ascendancy. Both enchantments would then lose the ability that turns other non-aura enchantments into creatures and Jeskai Ascendancy would cease to be a creature.
Since Infinite Reflection can only enchant a creature it would "fall off" Jeskai Ascendancy once it is no longer a creature and be put into the graveyard as a state based action, but (and this is where I too get a bit lost) I think all the permanants that became copies of Jeskai Ascendancy would still be copies of Jeskai Ascendancy. The Gatherer's page on Infinite Relfection says "5/1/2012 -- If Infinite Reflection leaves the battlefield or becomes attached to a different creature, none of the copy effects end. Your creatures will still be copies of whatever creature each was a copy of."http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389557
Back when Opalescence came out in 1999 the game rules actually could not handle this interaction. Those were simpler times...
It may be a little above your budget, but have you considered Consecrated Sphinx? I know you don't like to play stupid cards, but this is a really stupid card that would just be absurd in this deck. I don't think it goes infinite with anything you already run. It's semi-infinite with Mirrorweave. Mercifully, the sphinx's trigger says "may" so instead of that two card combo killing everyone in reverse-library-size order it just lets everyone draw as many cards as they want.
I normally hate the effect, but after some careful consideration I'm on-board for Library of Leng-type stuff in this deck. With that said, how about replacing one of them with Expedition Map. The map can fetch up Reliquary Tower, so you're not really losing a "no max hand size" effect from the deck, and has more than a few other good modes.
Thanks for the reply. I want to clarify something:
1) The JA copies all have a power and toughness of their original card's cmc, right? They're not 3/3s?
2) The Jeskai Ascendency that was Gilded Lotus can no longer tap for mana, correct? Similarly, any permanent would not retain its original ability.
3) If Opalescence leaves the battlefield for any reason, all Jeskai Ascendency copies remain JA, but they are no longer creatures. Is that correct?
It seems Infinite Reflections on its own leads to quite a few rules headaches. Maybe that's part of what makes it a fun card.
Ah, one more thing I'm just realizing. If you were to play another non creature artifact after all of that nonsense gets worked out, would it remain a non creature artifact? It seems to me that only those that were already in play would be creatures, and thus become copies of JA. But I'm not sure.
1. When a card copies another card, it copies every aspect including color and mana cost, unless the copy effect that is making those copies says otherwise. So all the Jeskai Ascendancy copies would also be copying the URW in it's cost and be 3/3s as a result.
2. That is correct, all creatures that became copies of Jeskai Ascendancy would lose their abilities, names and card types and become exact copies of Jeskai Ascendancy. Since March of the Machines makes Gilded Lotus a creature, the lotus would be turned into a copy of Jeskai Ascendancy when Infinite Reflection enters the battlefield and lose its printed card type, name, and mana cost and become an exact replica of the ascendancy. As a result March of the Machines would also lose its abilities and become a copy as well, so any artifact that wasn't on the battlefield before reflection came into play would come into play as a normal artifact since March of the machines is now just another copy of Jeskai Ascendancy and can no longer turn artifacts into Artifact Creatures.
3. I think you're correct, but am less certain about this. It could be the copies that Infinite Reflection made of the Ascendancy also copied the "Creature-ness" opalescence's ability granted Jeskai Ascendancy at the time and I can't make sense of what the rules have to say on this matter. Here is a link to the rules page, someone who understands this sort of thing better than me may be able to hash it out: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Copying_objects
DarklingScribe is basically on point. To amend those answers further:
1) They are all 3/3 because they copy the mana cost of Jeskai Ascendancy. That is how that rule works. But, the make things more complicated, they all get at least +1/+1 from the Ascendancy trigger from the casting of Infinite Reflections, and then every non creature spell after will give a boost for every Jeskai Ascendancy making it even more headache inducing to keep track of. (But the boosts aren't copied, so creatures entering after are just 3/3s until you cast something else.
2) Everything said here is right on. I just want to point out that this answers your question at the end. Any non creature artifact you play after would remain a non creature because there is no March of the Machines, only Zuul Jeskai Ascendancy.
3) Creature-ness is not copyable. If you follow that link (or look up the text directly in the comprehensive rules) it actually says directly that "Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects)... are not copied." So the type changing effect of Opalescence isn't copied, so as soon as Opalescence leaves, they all turn into non creature enchantment Jeskai Ascendancies. (Fun note: in my next update for this deck, I'll be adding in Starfield of Nyx, which only animates your enchantments. Thus, if I Mirrorweave an enchantment with an active Starfield out, I'll have a bunch of enchantment creatures to swing with, and my opponents will have only non creature enchantments that can't block.)
Edit: I just noticed that I didn't notice a couple posts.
With regards to having both enchantment animators out and having them turn into unanimated Jeskai Ascendancies, they would stay Jeskai Ascendancies even after it falls off. This is true of Infinite Reflection under any circumstances. The things it makes into copies stay that way after it's gone
@Hunding Gjornersen: You may have just solved my problem! I want to add some mana things (Pentad Prism and Oath of Lieges specifically). I also want to take out a mana thing: Sol Ring. I've both won and lost games because of an early game Sol Ring, I believe it's too good a card and games are better off without it, and it's probably about time I stop robbing myself of fun games by winning easily with a 2 turn head start. Thing is, I tried testing with those two things in and Sol Ring cut and found myself wanting to run another land in the deck because I wasn't starting the game as consistently since Sol Ring was basically my 35th land. I was already pretty close to picking Venser's Journal as my cut for a land, but I could just cut it for Expedition Map like you suggested, have fetching Reliquary Tower as an option, but also I could get Mikokoro if I need draw, Forbidden Orchard if I need more bodies in play, or a bounce land if I just want to ensure I hit all of my first 4 land drops.
Thank you everybody for the replies— I didn't expect to get such thorough responses. That answers the bulk of my questions, I'll try to figure things out from here as they come up.
By the way, I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread with all of this rules talk. I promise there will be no more!
Oh, I didn't catch that Starfield of Nyx only affects your own enchantments. Neat. Perhaps I should acquire one... It would lead to further rules headaches though, when in conjunction with Opalescence.
In the spirit of what this thread should actually be about, I do have one suggestion for a card that I've enjoyed using. I don't know how you feel about board wipes and destruction, but Blasphemous Act works very nicely with Swans, especially with Thought Reflection out (well, what is bad with Thought Reflection?).
Oh, I didn't catch that Starfield of Nyx only affects your own enchantments. Neat. Perhaps I should acquire one... It would lead to further rules headaches though, when in conjunction with Opalescence.
In the spirit of what this thread should actually be about, I do have one suggestion for a card that I've enjoyed using. I don't know how you feel about board wipes and destruction, but Blasphemous Act works very nicely with Swans, especially with Thought Reflection out (well, what is bad with Thought Reflection?).
I've been considering Blasphemous Act in place of Mogg Infestation since I added in Forbidden Orchard, but my only copy of Blasphemous Act is in my other deck with Mogg Infestations and Forbidden Orchard. Lol. I'm going to end up dismantling that deck soon to use pieces of it for another that I want to build, so I'll probably have the card available soon enough. Until then, I'm just going to imagine that I have Blasphemous Act when I draw Mogg Infestation. I definitely don't need 2 sorcery speed mass destruction spells. Paying Blasphemous Act would make a lot more sense than paying five to Mogg Infestation just Academy Rector (though it wouldn't feel as silly). I do have an instant speed mass removal option in mind, but I'd prefer to keep that tech secret until I actually acquire one.
One of these days, I'll get together the things I'm missing and make one big update to this thread.
Sidenote: Did the card images that were next to the decklist suddenly start overlapping with the decklist for anyone else?
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Sidenote: Did the card images that were next to the decklist suddenly start overlapping with the decklist for anyone else?
Yes. The way the site displays decklists and stuff seems to have changed slightly within the last month or so.
Darn, I guess I have to fix that then. That just ruined my appetite to keep secrets. Chances are nobody playing against me in person is going to read this before I get the card and play it anyway. I wanna play Firestorm. I've already got the Forbidden Orchard to give myself targets, I've got the Swans of Bryn Argoll to make it a like a mega looting / 10 for one, and I'm adding Starfield of Nyx that can bring back enchantments used as discard fodder. And if I'm desperate enough, it can always be 1 mana, discard my hand, blow things away.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
tstorm823, I like your deck construction. I have never seen the sacred ground and Price of Glory combo before and I think it's awesome. I added it to mine and referenced your deck. Feel free to check out my take on Zedruu and let me know what you think here.
tstorm823, I like your deck construction. I have never seen the sacred ground and Price of Glory combo before and I think it's awesome. I added it to mine and referenced your deck. Feel free to check out my take on Zedruu and let me know what you think here.
I'm actually really glad you took that because by some strange coincidence, while you were commenting here, I was updating the thread to the current real decklist which no longer has that combo. It's fun and cool but just doesn't quite mesh with my deck the way I wanted it to. I hope you get good use out of it!
P.S. I'll be back over here to do a post just about the changes I just made after I read that thread and take a short break.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
The reasons things are coming out.
I was talked into taking the walls out. Playing without them so far seems to justify the claim that I don't need them.
Sacred Ground, Price of Glory, and Barren Glory came out because that combo just didn't feel right in this deck. It worked once as a whole, and Barren Glory worked a bunch of times just off of Mind Over Matter and Gilded Lotus with more cards than permanents. If I want to add Barren Glory back in, it'll probably just slot back in where Ral Zarek is.
Spellbook and Venser's Journal switched out because the deck gained another no maximum hand size effect and a way to fetch reliquary tower, which is like having these but more versatile.
I officially declared Mana Flare too much of a liability for what it did. Also, I put it in a gruul deck.
Elixir of Immortality was frequently only cast as a 1 drop do nothing spell
Sol Ring is too good, so I'm taking it out of all my decks.
Horn of Greed just got slotted out for a different everybody draws effect
The reasons I added things.
Oath of Lieges is group hug that disproportionately benefits this deck and should have been in here.
Phyrexian Metamorph is a clone that can be a Howling Mine or mana rock and should have already been in here.
Expedition Map plays like a land in the deck but more versatile.
Pentad Prism lets me do turn 3 Zedruu and then get donated.
All of the above are needed to fill the void left by taking out Sol Ring. The do a lot more than just cover for it, but none of them do all of what Sol Ring did on their own.
Tidespout Tyrant is an awesome tool for the deck that can be a win condition, and taking out Sol Ring helped justify it since infinite mana with those two together is really easy and I didn't want to do that.
The Archive and Starfield are cool things that were printed recently and deserved to be added.
Horn of Greed finally became an option that I couldn't resist anymore with the those 2 origins cards added.
Firestorm is a bit of removal that can feed a Starfield, draw off Swans, end the game, all sorts of cool stuff.
Temporal Cascade is the second shuffle in graveyard effect for the deck. One of the only ways I can get people to zero cards in hand in these colors.
Ral Zarek is basically just getting an extended test run. Chances are it'll go as soon as something new catches my fancy. I'm looking at you, BFZ.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
What do you think of Sphinx's Tutelage in this shell? We draw a lot of card, it seems pretty incredible and pretty hilarious. I'm not a fan of Firestorm, to be honest. I've cut Swans and Firestorm for Tutelage and Supreme Verdict. We'll see how it goes!
Why would you cut Sol ring, it allows Turn 3 Zedruu, even turn 2 with god hand.
My modern Decks: GBRJundGBR URWJeskai NahiriURW My Legacy Deck: URBGrixis DelverURB My EDH Decks: GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB GRhys, The RedeemedW RWArchangel AvacynRW UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
I think the reasoning behind cutting Sol Ring is that it's such a polarizing card in this format and the deck is supposed to be more "fun" than "competitive" (whatever the hell that means). tstorm states in the opening post that they want all the combos to be at least 3 or 4 parts, even though more efficient options are available. Cutting Sol Ring seems to be in line with that.
I'll second the motion for Sphinx's Tutelage. Looks like you could easily mill the whole table out just doing business as usual.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
I'm cutting Sol Ring from all my decks because slowly but surely my playgroup is moving away from using it altogether. And the results have actually been pretty clear, games have been going longer with more interaction because of it.
But to be perfectly honest, I cut it when I added Tidespout Tyrant because it, Sol Ring, and a zero cost anything makes infinite mana really easily, and I wanted to avoid that interaction.
I do have a Sphinx's Tutelage sitting around; I'll try it in the slot that I have here as Ral Zarek/ Barren Glory. (It's nice having that one rotating slot for testing things.) It could mill a whole table just doing business as usual, but I also really would like access to that loot effect because I'm finding looting to be really good here. The inclusion of Starfield of Nyx almost got me to put Wild Research back in the deck (it was in so long ago, I don't think I mentioned it in this thread at all), but one game with Wild Research in I remembered all the reasons I didn't like it. Sphinx's Tutelage is a threat itself while also potentially letting my dig deeper. That's a lot of work for a 3 mana enchantment.
I'm honestly loving Firestorm. It's a very low cost spell, so it feeds into the things that trigger on cast easily, and I'm a big fan of that here, and with Swans on board, it can potentially blow people out for free. But mostly I love that playing it is itself a little puzzle game. "How many things should I discard to kill what I want, are there enough targets to do that or am I aiming at myself to make it work, etc." I love cards that force me to think no matter how experienced I get with them, and I think Firestorm fits that bill. But I perfectly understand playing a more conventional sweeper, especially if you're frequently playing against Urils or Narsets.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I'm honestly loving Firestorm. It's a very low cost spell, so it feeds into the things that trigger on cast easily, and I'm a big fan of that here, and with Swans on board, it can potentially blow people out for free. But mostly I love that playing it is itself a little puzzle game. "How many things should I discard to kill what I want, are there enough targets to do that or am I aiming at myself to make it work, etc." I love cards that force me to think no matter how experienced I get with them, and I think Firestorm fits that bill. But I perfectly understand playing a more conventional sweeper, especially if you're frequently playing against Urils or Narsets.
Pretty sure Firestorm doesn't work like you think it does. X can't exceed the number of legal targets. So on an empty board with 4 players, X can't exceed 3 or else your targeting yourself too.
Unless somebody is filling the board with creatures can't see it getting to a one hit KO
"are there enough targets to do that or am I aiming at myself to make it work, etc."
Pretty sure Firestorm doesn't work like you think it does. X can't exceed the number of legal targets. So on an empty board with 4 players, X can't exceed 3 or else your targeting yourself too.
Not to sound condescending, but if you take a look at what you quoted, it should be pretty obvious that you didn't need to explain this to me. Thanks for double checking though. It would not have been the first time I mistook the function of a card.
More general note. I tried out Sphinx's Tutelage for a couple games, and wow, I underestimated it. It kills as fast as Psychosis crawler ever did, and it costs 2 less, and it feeds itself, and it can just combo off with Mind Over Matter and enough Thought Reflection action. Definitely too efficient a win condition for my tastes.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I'm gonna give your deck a try next week. Looks like a lot of fun.
Hard to find combo decks that aren't so degenerate.
Well, depending on who you play with, they may think all combos are degenerate. I mostly just care that nobody else can predict my win condition until it happens, and more efficient win conditions are more predictable.
At any rate, I hope you have as much fun with it as I do.
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EDIT: Looks like you've already noticed the spoiler in another thread. Do you think you'll be replacing Thought Reflection with the Archive or just supplementing Thought Reflection with it?
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I've spent the last hour or so crying tears of blood that I'm going to have to get my hands on 2 mythics from the next set.
This is worse than than Thought Reflection for me I think because the lifegain isn't worth as much as being findable with Academy Rector. But redundancy on a lower mana cost is definitely good.
Starfield of Nyx is worse than Opalescence for me I think because I need a big board before it does Opalescence, but that recursion is nice, particularly if I'm being abusive and just discarding to hand size. I'm less sold on this one than on the archive, but I'm still hoping to get one and try it out.
Why must I spend so much money on cardboard!?
Just wait a few weeks after release before purchasing anything. Almost all prerelease and release card prices are heavily inflated to match the excitement and hype of players wanting to get their hands on new toys. The biggest authenticator of a pricy Magic card at release is actually that card's relevance in Standard. Alhammarret's Archive and Starfield of Nyx are both cards that, while awesome, will likely have little to no impact on Standard and therefore their prices will remain fairly low. I'd wager that you'll be able to easily pick up the two cards together for less than $10.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Suppose you have both Opalescence and March of the Machines on the battlefield. Say you also have some third enchantment, in this example, Jeskai Ascendency. You also have a mana rock in play, like Gilded Lotus. Now, March of the Machines, Jeskai Ascendency, and Gilded Lotus are all creatures with power and toughness equal to their converted mana costs, and they retain all of their abilities.
Now suppose you cast a mass copy effect on any of these newly animated cards, like casting Infinite Reflection on Jeskai Ascendency. We are left with a layers nightmare, which I can't make sense of. I'm trying to figure out what properties each card is left with.
Here's my understanding. Jeskai Ascendecy's being a creature is dependent upon Opalescence, so this must happen first in order for Infinite Reflection to target Jeskai Ascendency. But Infinite Reflection can't make the copies yet, because March of the Machines changes the size of the set of objects being changed, so Infinite Reflection is next dependent upon March of the Machine's ability. Since there are no other dependencies, everything happens in order. Infinite Reflection makes all other creatures a copy of Jeskai Ascendency. At this point, March of the Machines and Gilded Lotus are both Jeskai Ascendency creatures with power and toughness equal to JA's cmc, or 3. They do not retain their old abilities. Now, even though March of the Machines does not have its original ability (it's now a JA), its effect still happens, because everything else was dependent on it.
So, what we are left with is a Gilded Lotus that is now a 3/3 creature Jeskai Ascendency, with only JA's abilities, a March of the Machines that's now also a 3/3 JA creature with only JA's abilities, the original JA with Infinite Reflection attached, and Opalescence.
What does everybody think? Is this correct? I assume the same would happen for Mirrorweave, or if they were different artifacts and enchantments like Thought Reflection or Sword of Feast and Famine.
I bring this question up because I could not find anything online, and because I'd like to commend you on a fun list that has inspired new ideas for me.
a) Thank you! I'm quite proud of this deck and appreciate your appreciation.
b) Yes, when Infinite Reflections enters, it will make all creatures you control a copy of Jeskai Ascendancy. It does not actually make them 3/3 creatures, it just makes them exact copies of Jeskai Ascendancy (Color, mana cost, abilities, name, the things you get from the card itself). So Gilded Lotus, March of the Machines, and Jeskai Ascendancy are all now Jeskai Ascendancy, which are all creatures because Opalescence is still around doing its thing. If you lose Opalescence later, all the copies of Jeskai Ascendancy stop being creatures. Similarly, if you have 2 Opalescence before playing Infinite Reflection, the Opalescences become Jeskai Ascendancies, and thus none of them are creatures and Infinite Reflections falls off (though that does not stop its effect. Anything Infinite Reflections changes stays that way even if the aura dies.)
And yes, March of the Machines effect no longer applies, but you've turned every artifact you control into a Jeskai Ascendancy by the time the game notices that it is gone, so the Gilded Lotus is still a Jeskai Ascendancy creature.
I have learned (and am still learning) a whole lot of rules interactions for this deck that I otherwise never needed to know.
Here is another mindbender.
If you cast Infinite Reflection on Jeskai Ascendancy with both Starfield of Nyx and Opalescence in play making Jeskai Ascendancy a legal target, Infinite Reflection will turn Starfield of Nyx and Opalescence into copies of Jeskai Ascendancy. Both enchantments would then lose the ability that turns other non-aura enchantments into creatures and Jeskai Ascendancy would cease to be a creature.
Since Infinite Reflection can only enchant a creature it would "fall off" Jeskai Ascendancy once it is no longer a creature and be put into the graveyard as a state based action, but (and this is where I too get a bit lost) I think all the permanants that became copies of Jeskai Ascendancy would still be copies of Jeskai Ascendancy. The Gatherer's page on Infinite Relfection says "5/1/2012 -- If Infinite Reflection leaves the battlefield or becomes attached to a different creature, none of the copy effects end. Your creatures will still be copies of whatever creature each was a copy of." http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389557
The real infinte loop headache is when you cast Humility when you control Starfield of Nyx or Opalescence on the battlefield.
Back when Opalescence came out in 1999 the game rules actually could not handle this interaction. Those were simpler times...
It may be a little above your budget, but have you considered Consecrated Sphinx? I know you don't like to play stupid cards, but this is a really stupid card that would just be absurd in this deck.
I don't think it goes infinite with anything you already run. It's semi-infinite with Mirrorweave. Mercifully, the sphinx's trigger says "may" so instead of that two card combo killing everyone in reverse-library-size order it just lets everyone draw as many cards as they want.I normally hate the effect, but after some careful consideration I'm on-board for Library of Leng-type stuff in this deck. With that said, how about replacing one of them with Expedition Map. The map can fetch up Reliquary Tower, so you're not really losing a "no max hand size" effect from the deck, and has more than a few other good modes.
1) The JA copies all have a power and toughness of their original card's cmc, right? They're not 3/3s?
2) The Jeskai Ascendency that was Gilded Lotus can no longer tap for mana, correct? Similarly, any permanent would not retain its original ability.
3) If Opalescence leaves the battlefield for any reason, all Jeskai Ascendency copies remain JA, but they are no longer creatures. Is that correct?
It seems Infinite Reflections on its own leads to quite a few rules headaches. Maybe that's part of what makes it a fun card.
Ah, one more thing I'm just realizing. If you were to play another non creature artifact after all of that nonsense gets worked out, would it remain a non creature artifact? It seems to me that only those that were already in play would be creatures, and thus become copies of JA. But I'm not sure.
2. That is correct, all creatures that became copies of Jeskai Ascendancy would lose their abilities, names and card types and become exact copies of Jeskai Ascendancy. Since March of the Machines makes Gilded Lotus a creature, the lotus would be turned into a copy of Jeskai Ascendancy when Infinite Reflection enters the battlefield and lose its printed card type, name, and mana cost and become an exact replica of the ascendancy. As a result March of the Machines would also lose its abilities and become a copy as well, so any artifact that wasn't on the battlefield before reflection came into play would come into play as a normal artifact since March of the machines is now just another copy of Jeskai Ascendancy and can no longer turn artifacts into Artifact Creatures.
3. I think you're correct, but am less certain about this. It could be the copies that Infinite Reflection made of the Ascendancy also copied the "Creature-ness" opalescence's ability granted Jeskai Ascendancy at the time and I can't make sense of what the rules have to say on this matter. Here is a link to the rules page, someone who understands this sort of thing better than me may be able to hash it out: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Copying_objects
1) They are all 3/3 because they copy the mana cost of Jeskai Ascendancy. That is how that rule works. But, the make things more complicated, they all get at least +1/+1 from the Ascendancy trigger from the casting of Infinite Reflections, and then every non creature spell after will give a boost for every Jeskai Ascendancy making it even more headache inducing to keep track of. (But the boosts aren't copied, so creatures entering after are just 3/3s until you cast something else.
2) Everything said here is right on. I just want to point out that this answers your question at the end. Any non creature artifact you play after would remain a non creature because there is no March of the Machines, only
ZuulJeskai Ascendancy.3) Creature-ness is not copyable. If you follow that link (or look up the text directly in the comprehensive rules) it actually says directly that "Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects)... are not copied." So the type changing effect of Opalescence isn't copied, so as soon as Opalescence leaves, they all turn into non creature enchantment Jeskai Ascendancies. (Fun note: in my next update for this deck, I'll be adding in Starfield of Nyx, which only animates your enchantments. Thus, if I Mirrorweave an enchantment with an active Starfield out, I'll have a bunch of enchantment creatures to swing with, and my opponents will have only non creature enchantments that can't block.)
Edit: I just noticed that I didn't notice a couple posts.
With regards to having both enchantment animators out and having them turn into unanimated Jeskai Ascendancies, they would stay Jeskai Ascendancies even after it falls off. This is true of Infinite Reflection under any circumstances. The things it makes into copies stay that way after it's gone
@Hunding Gjornersen: You may have just solved my problem! I want to add some mana things (Pentad Prism and Oath of Lieges specifically). I also want to take out a mana thing: Sol Ring. I've both won and lost games because of an early game Sol Ring, I believe it's too good a card and games are better off without it, and it's probably about time I stop robbing myself of fun games by winning easily with a 2 turn head start. Thing is, I tried testing with those two things in and Sol Ring cut and found myself wanting to run another land in the deck because I wasn't starting the game as consistently since Sol Ring was basically my 35th land. I was already pretty close to picking Venser's Journal as my cut for a land, but I could just cut it for Expedition Map like you suggested, have fetching Reliquary Tower as an option, but also I could get Mikokoro if I need draw, Forbidden Orchard if I need more bodies in play, or a bounce land if I just want to ensure I hit all of my first 4 land drops.
By the way, I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread with all of this rules talk. I promise there will be no more!
Oh, I didn't catch that Starfield of Nyx only affects your own enchantments. Neat. Perhaps I should acquire one... It would lead to further rules headaches though, when in conjunction with Opalescence.
In the spirit of what this thread should actually be about, I do have one suggestion for a card that I've enjoyed using. I don't know how you feel about board wipes and destruction, but Blasphemous Act works very nicely with Swans, especially with Thought Reflection out (well, what is bad with Thought Reflection?).
This is a test. March of the Machines, BlUE[/ECk]
I've been considering Blasphemous Act in place of Mogg Infestation since I added in Forbidden Orchard, but my only copy of Blasphemous Act is in my other deck with Mogg Infestations and Forbidden Orchard. Lol. I'm going to end up dismantling that deck soon to use pieces of it for another that I want to build, so I'll probably have the card available soon enough. Until then, I'm just going to imagine that I have Blasphemous Act when I draw Mogg Infestation. I definitely don't need 2 sorcery speed mass destruction spells. Paying Blasphemous Act would make a lot more sense than paying five to Mogg Infestation just Academy Rector (though it wouldn't feel as silly). I do have an instant speed mass removal option in mind, but I'd prefer to keep that tech secret until I actually acquire one.
One of these days, I'll get together the things I'm missing and make one big update to this thread.
Sidenote: Did the card images that were next to the decklist suddenly start overlapping with the decklist for anyone else?
Is it Grinning Totem for someone else's Fated Retribution?
Yes. The way the site displays decklists and stuff seems to have changed slightly within the last month or so.
Darn, I guess I have to fix that then. That just ruined my appetite to keep secrets. Chances are nobody playing against me in person is going to read this before I get the card and play it anyway. I wanna play Firestorm. I've already got the Forbidden Orchard to give myself targets, I've got the Swans of Bryn Argoll to make it a like a mega looting / 10 for one, and I'm adding Starfield of Nyx that can bring back enchantments used as discard fodder. And if I'm desperate enough, it can always be 1 mana, discard my hand, blow things away.
I'm actually really glad you took that because by some strange coincidence, while you were commenting here, I was updating the thread to the current real decklist which no longer has that combo. It's fun and cool but just doesn't quite mesh with my deck the way I wanted it to. I hope you get good use out of it!
P.S. I'll be back over here to do a post just about the changes I just made after I read that thread and take a short break.
-Fog Bank
-Wall of Denial
-Spellbook
-Elixir of Immortality
-Sol Ring
-Horn of Greed
-Venser's Journal
-Sacred Ground
-Mana Flare
-Price of Glory
-Barren Glory
+Oath of Lieges
+Pentad Prism
+Firestorm
+Temporal Cascade
+Anvil of Bogardan
+Expedition Map
+Alhammarret's Archive
+Starfield of Nyx
+Tidespout Tyrant
+Phyrexian Metamorph
+Ral Zarek
The reasons things are coming out.
I was talked into taking the walls out. Playing without them so far seems to justify the claim that I don't need them.
Sacred Ground, Price of Glory, and Barren Glory came out because that combo just didn't feel right in this deck. It worked once as a whole, and Barren Glory worked a bunch of times just off of Mind Over Matter and Gilded Lotus with more cards than permanents. If I want to add Barren Glory back in, it'll probably just slot back in where Ral Zarek is.
Spellbook and Venser's Journal switched out because the deck gained another no maximum hand size effect and a way to fetch reliquary tower, which is like having these but more versatile.
I officially declared Mana Flare too much of a liability for what it did. Also, I put it in a gruul deck.
Elixir of Immortality was frequently only cast as a 1 drop do nothing spell
Sol Ring is too good, so I'm taking it out of all my decks.
Horn of Greed just got slotted out for a different everybody draws effect
The reasons I added things.
Oath of Lieges is group hug that disproportionately benefits this deck and should have been in here.
Phyrexian Metamorph is a clone that can be a Howling Mine or mana rock and should have already been in here.
Expedition Map plays like a land in the deck but more versatile.
Pentad Prism lets me do turn 3 Zedruu and then get donated.
All of the above are needed to fill the void left by taking out Sol Ring. The do a lot more than just cover for it, but none of them do all of what Sol Ring did on their own.
Tidespout Tyrant is an awesome tool for the deck that can be a win condition, and taking out Sol Ring helped justify it since infinite mana with those two together is really easy and I didn't want to do that.
The Archive and Starfield are cool things that were printed recently and deserved to be added.
Horn of Greed finally became an option that I couldn't resist anymore with the those 2 origins cards added.
Firestorm is a bit of removal that can feed a Starfield, draw off Swans, end the game, all sorts of cool stuff.
Temporal Cascade is the second shuffle in graveyard effect for the deck. One of the only ways I can get people to zero cards in hand in these colors.
Ral Zarek is basically just getting an extended test run. Chances are it'll go as soon as something new catches my fancy. I'm looking at you, BFZ.
Why would you cut Sol ring, it allows Turn 3 Zedruu, even turn 2 with god hand.
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
I'll second the motion for Sphinx's Tutelage. Looks like you could easily mill the whole table out just doing business as usual.
But to be perfectly honest, I cut it when I added Tidespout Tyrant because it, Sol Ring, and a zero cost anything makes infinite mana really easily, and I wanted to avoid that interaction.
I do have a Sphinx's Tutelage sitting around; I'll try it in the slot that I have here as Ral Zarek/ Barren Glory. (It's nice having that one rotating slot for testing things.) It could mill a whole table just doing business as usual, but I also really would like access to that loot effect because I'm finding looting to be really good here. The inclusion of Starfield of Nyx almost got me to put Wild Research back in the deck (it was in so long ago, I don't think I mentioned it in this thread at all), but one game with Wild Research in I remembered all the reasons I didn't like it. Sphinx's Tutelage is a threat itself while also potentially letting my dig deeper. That's a lot of work for a 3 mana enchantment.
I'm honestly loving Firestorm. It's a very low cost spell, so it feeds into the things that trigger on cast easily, and I'm a big fan of that here, and with Swans on board, it can potentially blow people out for free. But mostly I love that playing it is itself a little puzzle game. "How many things should I discard to kill what I want, are there enough targets to do that or am I aiming at myself to make it work, etc." I love cards that force me to think no matter how experienced I get with them, and I think Firestorm fits that bill. But I perfectly understand playing a more conventional sweeper, especially if you're frequently playing against Urils or Narsets.
Pretty sure Firestorm doesn't work like you think it does. X can't exceed the number of legal targets. So on an empty board with 4 players, X can't exceed 3 or else your targeting yourself too.
Unless somebody is filling the board with creatures can't see it getting to a one hit KO
Not to sound condescending, but if you take a look at what you quoted, it should be pretty obvious that you didn't need to explain this to me. Thanks for double checking though. It would not have been the first time I mistook the function of a card.
More general note. I tried out Sphinx's Tutelage for a couple games, and wow, I underestimated it. It kills as fast as Psychosis crawler ever did, and it costs 2 less, and it feeds itself, and it can just combo off with Mind Over Matter and enough Thought Reflection action. Definitely too efficient a win condition for my tastes.
I'm gonna give your deck a try next week. Looks like a lot of fun.
Hard to find combo decks that aren't so degenerate.
Well, depending on who you play with, they may think all combos are degenerate. I mostly just care that nobody else can predict my win condition until it happens, and more efficient win conditions are more predictable.
At any rate, I hope you have as much fun with it as I do.