For the life of me, I can't figure out how you win with Barren Glory. I understand you discard your hand to Mind over Matter, but the stumbling block for me is how you generate enough mana to donate everything to other players, and when. Can you walk us through the combo?
For the life of me, I can't figure out how you win with Barren Glory. I understand you discard your hand to Mind over Matter, but the stumbling block for me is how you generate enough mana to donate everything to other players, and when. Can you walk us through the combo?
Basically, it's a spout after drawing literally the entire deck. Drawing everything happens when I:
a)Get out Mindmoil and draw doubler, cast spells until I draw everything
b)Donate Forced Fruition, cast spells until I draw everything
c)Get out Swans, Seismic Assault, and probably a draw doubler to make it chain smoothly
d)Stick Temporal Cascade in Eye of the Storm, cast instants and sorceries until I draw everything.
Probably about 1/3 of my wins happen because I can draw the entire deck. And once that happens, Mind Over Matter or Dream Halls let me play cards pretty freely.
So let's imagine it's like turn 10 and I hit all my land drops with basic lands, and I've got Zedruu and like 5 other non-land permanents in play, and like 8 cards in hand to start the turn. Then I pay 6 for Mind Over Matter, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands to tap for 6 for Forced Fruition. Discard 3 more to untap lands to donate Forced Frution. So I've played 2 cards and discarded 5 leaving me 1 card in hand, and guess what.. It's Memnite! Bam, play Memnite, and draw 7. At this point, every cast draws 7, so it's like discard 4 cards for 4 mana for Bam! Turnabout draw 7. After playing 10 or so cards this way (including Barren Glory and an extra turn and probably Gilded Lotus), I've got less than 7 cards left in the deck. Of the 70 cards I drew this way, 9 have been played, by discarding like 25 cards for mana. If half the cards cast were permanents, I now have Zedruu, 10 lands, Gilded Lotus, and 10 other assorted permanents, which is 22 non-Barren Glory permanents. I also have 36 cards in hand, and with Mind Over Matter and Gilded Lotus, those 36 cards become 36 mana of each color (discard all to untap Gilded Lotus and tap it 12 times for each color). 22 of each color with Zedruu can donate all 22 non-Barren Glory permanents with 42 mana to spare. Then I just pass the turn to myself and win. (So long as I don't do the thing I did the one time where I donated all my permanents to a 5 color deck and he just used Mind Over Matter to untap enough to donate one land back to me. Then he won on his turn, lol.)
I added Barren Glory in when I was making infinite mana with Sacred Ground and Price of Glory, but one game I had Barren Glory, Mind Over Matter, Zedruu, and a bounce land among my 12 total permanents, and I had 25 cards in hand because of Land Tax/Paradox Haze/Spellbook. and I was like "wait a second..."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
To my left is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. To my right is a deck that manages to accomplish nothing of consequence in this scenario.
Over the first few turns, I got out Howling Mine, Zedruu, and Alhammarret's Archive. Drana killed Zedruu and played Bad Moon and hit me a few times. Then I played March of the Machines which let Howling Mine eat a kill spell and Drana hit me a 4th time, putting me at 18 commander damage (3+4+5+6). On my turn I played Blasphemous Act followed by Kami of the Crescent Moon. Drana player replays Drana, which is all their mana after a couple missed land drops. Person on my right plays Pristine Talisman. I play a bounce land and leave 4 mana open. When Drana swings at me for lethal, I Mirrorweave Pristine Talisman and block Drana for the trade, which buys me multiple turns since they lack the mana to cast her a third time. My next turn I play Zedruu, then they play Kokusho, the Evening Star. I donate March of the Machines to draw some, and hit Phyrexian Metamorph, Turnabout, and Time Spiral. I make my own Kokusho before untapping with Turnabout to play Time Spiral ending up with 8 mana available and a fresh hand, which finds me Gilded Lotus and Vanish Into Memory. So I play Lotus, pass, and Vanish Into Memory on Kokusho, which loots me into Seismic Assault and Academy Rector which gets Mind Over Matter which helps me stall a turn with some creature taps. Meanwhile, Drana plays Gray Merchant of Asphodel which puts me down to single digits of life. On my turn, I draw Expedition Map which finds Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, which activates 4 times in total using Mind Over Matter to untap it and effectively loot for 2 mana each time until hitting Rite of Replication, and then 9 mana kicks Rite of Replication on Gray Merchant and nukes the other players for 50 for the win. I love the struggle!
Also, I got both my wins of Vanish Into Memory draws today, it looting me 6 the first time and drawing me 7 the second time which ended the game before I even had to discard. I thought I was being cute with that card, but man can 4 mana to Fog + Draw do some serious work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
My next turn I play Zedruu, then they play Kokusho, the Evening Star. I donate March of the Machines to draw some, and hit Phyrexian Metamorph, Turnabout, and Time Spiral. I make my own Kokusho before untapping with Turnabout to play Time Spiral ending up with 8 mana available and a fresh hand, which finds me Gilded Lotus and Vanish Into Memory. So I play Lotus, pass, and Vanish Into Memory on Kokusho, which loots me into Seismic Assault and Academy Rector which gets Mind Over Matter which helps me stall a turn with some creature taps. Meanwhile, Drana plays Gray Merchant of Asphodel which puts me down to single digits of life. On my turn, I draw Expedition Map which finds Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, which activates 4 times in total using Mind Over Matter to untap it and effectively loot for 2 mana each time until hitting Rite of Replication, and then 9 mana kicks Rite of Replication on Gray Merchant and nukes the other players for 50 for the win. I love the struggle!
I imagine this is what it's like when you play the deck:
Also, if you ever feel that Memnite is a little too over-powered, you could run Saprazzan or Kyren Legates and donate basic lands as appropriate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
I imagine this is what it's like when you play the deck:
Also, if you ever feel that Memnite is a little too over-powered, you could run Saprazzan or Kyren Legates and donate basic lands as appropriate.
Haha! And shortly after that, a friend borrowed the deck and we were facing down Sanguine Bond / Exquisite Blood controlled by an Oloro deck, so imminent death coming. He processed his options and the only option that had any hope was draw 13 cards with 1 Island open. And then he hits both moxen and Temporal Trespass but without enough of a graveyard to delve all 8. But he had Leyline out, so if he discarded at end of turn, he could flash Temporal Trespass on my turn before we died... but Reliquary Tower was already in play and he'd already dropped a land so he couldn't bounce it back. So close, so very close.
Also, I do not think Memnite is over-powered, but I'll keep those in mind, lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
So recently I went about building a Zedruu deck similar to yours. It's honestly been the most fun deck I have ever built. So far the most notable play I've had was in a 4 player game and it was even as hell. My buddy was playing my Phenax, God of Deception deck and decides to Praetor's Grasp me, proceeding to take my Dissipation Field and play it. So my turn comes up and at this point of the game I'm drawing 5 cards per upkeep which isn't too bad. I already have a Memnite in hand and luckily I drew my Warstorm Surge. After playing Warstorm Surge I proceeded to Memnite the crap out of him for taking my card, then winning the whole game from everybody scooping once they realized what my combo did. Thanks for the incredible guide for this deck! Couldn't have constructed it without it.
So recently I went about building a Zedruu deck similar to yours. It's honestly been the most fun deck I have ever built. So far the most notable play I've had was in a 4 player game and it was even as hell. My buddy was playing my Phenax, God of Deception deck and decides to Praetor's Grasp me, proceeding to take my Dissipation Field and play it. So my turn comes up and at this point of the game I'm drawing 5 cards per upkeep which isn't too bad. I already have a Memnite in hand and luckily I drew my Warstorm Surge. After playing Warstorm Surge I proceeded to Memnite the crap out of him for taking my card, then winning the whole game from everybody scooping once they realized what my combo did. Thanks for the incredible guide for this deck! Couldn't have constructed it without it.
My favorite part of reading that was when you went "I'm drawing 5 cards a turn which isn't too bad." It's like, "I had a full house every hand, so it was an alright night of poker." Lol
That's awesome how that worked out for you... unfortunately it's not quite as perfect as you think. When you donate Dissipation Field (or its stolen from you in play) and kill someone, it comes back to you because the effect giving control ends. When the card enters under the battlefield under an opponent's control, as is the case when cast with Praetor's Grasp, there is no effect to end, and it gets exiled along with the rest of their things when they die. Perhaps I should put a guide of just permanent control rulings in a spoiler somewhere... although if the rest of the table just scooped, it doesn't really matter if you couldn't kill them, does it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Honestly i got lucky that everyone scooped and had to explain how the cards interact when previously exiled. It was at like 2-3 in the morning and everybody was tired as all hell at that point anyways so it didn't matter. Victory is victory. Also, completely unrelated as you'll probably disagree with my decisions to put Omniscience in my Zedruu deck, but it is absolutely HILARIOUS with Mindmoil and Thought Reflection in play.
I've gotten nowhere on that riddle, but I haven't given it too much thought. I was busy adding a section at the top of "how to play the deck" that describes some of the rules necessary to understand Zedruu. I'll be pondering that one.
Also, if anyone sees something wrong or missing in the stuff I added, please tell me. It'd be quite the embarrassment to leave misinformation up for the world to see.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Fallen down a Jeskai hole because a bunch of decks became too linear and redundant. I love what I have read with the good old Goat and Narset puts me off because I don't like running creature-less decks.
The problem is that I know the groups of people I play in and there doesn't seem to be enough disruption to make it work for my meta so it is time to get crafting.
Fallen down a Jeskai hole because a bunch of decks became too linear and redundant. I love what I have read with the good old Goat and Narset puts me off because I don't like running creature-less decks.
The problem is that I know the groups of people I play in and there doesn't seem to be enough disruption to make it work for my meta so it is time to get crafting.
Great Thread.
If you're want to stuck disruption in, you're absolutely in the right colors at least. I'm playing almost exactly none of it, but Jeskai has some of the best in the game. From white's one mana creature removal and enchantment hate, to reds nonbasic and artifact hate, to all of the best counterspells in the game. It's also the color combo that lets you play counterspells with Sunforger. You can stop people from searching libraries, from playing too many spells, from using their graveyard; the world of disruption is at your fingertips.
I don't know exactly what you mean though. If you're saying you'd like something like this but with more disruption, it's not hard to make cuts. This deck plays like 10-15 cards to act as the win conditions, which is downright excessive. Replacing a couple infinite combos with good old answers is a totally doable thing.
If you mean that you'd like a jeskai control deck, I'd argue Zedruu is really the right choice. Jeskai is a combination of colors with all sorts of possible strategies, which makes it particularly strange that the other generals all feel like they're asking how many combats you'd like to end the game in: 4, 3, 2, or 1? Zedruu gains you life and draws you card, what better engine could you want for a control deck?
Edit: Oh, and thanks for the comment!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I have a, uh, friend who wants to build this deck, but wishes to remain anonymous. Can you answer her question?
Hey tstorm823!
This deck looks like fun, but I'm too poor to afford some of these big-ticket cards! How can I build a penny-conscious alternative, maintain a minimum level of extreme, board-state shifting wackiness in the deck, whilst also managing to eke out a win now and then?
Thanking you in advance,
Junior Enchanter Seeking Knowledge, Awareness and Insight
I have a, uh, friend who wants to build this deck, but wishes to remain anonymous. Can you answer her question?
Hey tstorm823!
This deck looks like fun, but I'm too poor to afford some of these big-ticket cards! How can I build a penny-conscious alternative, maintain a minimum level of extreme, board-state shifting wackiness in the deck, whilst also managing to eke out a win now and then?
Thanking you in advance,
Junior Enchanter Seeking Knowledge, Awareness and Insight
The deck right now is like $250, but for the first half of this deck's life, it was under 100 dollars, and it worked well enough then to already be my favorite deck.
Step 1: Take out the moxen, add in cheap lands, bam $40 gone. (-40)
Step 2: Take out Mind Over Matter and follow that line to a bunch of other things. Mikokoro and Forbidden Orchard do very little interesting without Mind Over Matter and with those out the mana base is pretty much rock bottom budget. Land Tax loses some of its power without the ultimate discard effect (of course Land Tax is still very good, but we're trying to make budget cuts here so kill it with fire). Those 4 things pull out another $35. (-75)
Step 3: Hit the broken free value stuff. Time Spiral is money, Academy Rector is money, Dream Halls is some money, Tidespout Tyrant is some money. And Jace and Venser and Temporal Mastery. Take those out and we're down another 55 dollars. (-130)
Step 4: Get really stingy. Anvil of Bogardan is very marginal for it's money value. Copy enchantment as well. And Phyrexian Metamorph. And Firestorm. And Gilded Lotus is the last most expensive thing in the deck so cut that anyway. 25 dollars. (-155)
Woohoo! If my old deck estimate of $250 still holds up, that should put us down 18 cards and just under $100. The list of cards still worth more than 2 dollars is:
Forced Fruition
Leyline of Anticipation
Teferi's Puzzle Box
Turnabout
Kami of the Crescent Moon
Font of Mythos
Vedalken Orrery
Rest in Peace
And I personally feel all those things justify their price tag very much so. If you really wanted to go without the flash enablers, you could, but they're just so much fun, I'd cry to be without them. So with 18 cards out, some holes need to be plugged up. We need some more land to replace the 2 moxen and the 2 lands and some of the free value. At least 4 more lands to replace those, probably 5 since suddenly we actually need mana to do things. Basics should be fine, or any cheap multicolor lands you have lying around. I hear those scry temples have tanked since they rotated, and Sol Ring isn't totally cheap, but play if you have it already, who cares. The infinite combos with Tidespout Tyrant go with it, as well as the one with Mind Over Matter. That's fine, they're rather new in the deck and I hardly use them anyway. The infinite turns combo loses temporal mastery though, so it could probably use some bolstering since Temporal Trespass is the only way to go off. They require a little extra work, but you can do the trick with Second Chance or Ugin's Nexus. Second Chance can go with Form of the Dragon. Ugin's Nexus can go with a way to sacrifice artifacts, like Megatog or Shape Anew (which requires more careful play, stacking the deck correctly to draw the nexus and shape anew and then doing shape anew into Mirror of Fate, but its a fun card on its own. Turns Pentad Prism into Alhammarret's Archive, maybe).
5 lands and 2 of those things puts us at 11 empty slots left, and there's a few 1 to 1 replacements worth noting. Time Reversal or the slightly more expensive Day's Undoing can replace Time Spiral. Conflagrate is a big overlap with Firestorm while also being like 10 cents. There are .50 clones (like Clone) that can most be a metamorph since there's no gilded lotus to free copy anyway. Mikokoro and anvil of bogardan can become cheaper howling mine imitations. Temple Bell is safe without MOM, as is Otherwordly Atlas. Well of Ideas or Mind Unbound or Staff of Nin can also draw cards each turn for low money cost, but dont pretend they do the same thing. The draw being cheap and early is important here. Add a couple of those in as well, and we've got most of the actions reavailable with like 6 slots left.
The difference between the new budgety version and what I play is speed and explosiveness. It's sacrificed the ability to play things for free or untap all the lands repeatedly. There are 2 ways you can go to fill the rest.
a) Even more group hug. Braids, Conjurer Adept, Mana Flare, Wild Evocation, Gate to the Aether, Arcane Melee. There are cards that let you throw things out onto the field because they let everyone do it. I wish Show and Tell was a 10 cent card, but oh well, we manage. You can't really replace how explosive Mind Over Matter or Dream Halls are, but you can certainly get an engine quick enough to make things interesting.
b) Accept the slowness and prepare for the long haul. The full suite of Propoganda effects was in this deck when it was cheaper. You could certainly run some removal in these colors to stay alive. You could grab a Well of Lost Dreams and throw the 5 best lifegain cards you can find in. Anything to keep you alive long enough for the shenanigans to matter.
Oh, and I almost forgot, one slot has to be something that un-donates Forced Fruition. A Boomerang, or a Disenchant, or something. Without Venser or Tidespout Tyrant, you lose most of the ways to not mill out in that situation. Or even better, forget Shape Anew from above and play Reweave. Kill two birds with one weird, cheap Kamigawa instant.
I'll probably clean this up into a fully coherent guide at some point and paste it back to the first post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Fallen down a Jeskai hole because a bunch of decks became too linear and redundant. I love what I have read with the good old Goat and Narset puts me off because I don't like running creature-less decks.
The problem is that I know the groups of people I play in and there doesn't seem to be enough disruption to make it work for my meta so it is time to get crafting.
Great Thread.
If you're want to stuck disruption in, you're absolutely in the right colors at least. I'm playing almost exactly none of it, but Jeskai has some of the best in the game. From white's one mana creature removal and enchantment hate, to reds nonbasic and artifact hate, to all of the best counterspells in the game. It's also the color combo that lets you play counterspells with Sunforger. You can stop people from searching libraries, from playing too many spells, from using their graveyard; the world of disruption is at your fingertips.
I don't know exactly what you mean though. If you're saying you'd like something like this but with more disruption, it's not hard to make cuts. This deck plays like 10-15 cards to act as the win conditions, which is downright excessive. Replacing a couple infinite combos with good old answers is a totally doable thing.
If you mean that you'd like a jeskai control deck, I'd argue Zedruu is really the right choice. Jeskai is a combination of colors with all sorts of possible strategies, which makes it particularly strange that the other generals all feel like they're asking how many combats you'd like to end the game in: 4, 3, 2, or 1? Zedruu gains you life and draws you card, what better engine could you want for a control deck?
Edit: Oh, and thanks for the comment!
For sure what I meant is I play with a set group of people and I am the person of that group that has to explain the interactions between 5 cards two of which no one else has heard of. So people have gotten wise to that and the aggressive decks and mid-range style decks I play against don't suffer a more dedicated combo deck to live and the amount of spot removal I play with runs the gamut.
I like the Goat a lot and the deck will be some weird and wild version of this thing, I love it but I can't emulate it.
I like the Goat a lot and the deck will be some weird and wild version of this thing, I love it but I can't emulate it.
EDIT:
Version 1 that came out the other end.
snip
Well that looks solid. My comments...
Crown of Doom I think is a little wishful thinking. I can't imagine how it wouldn't just be thrown back to you every turn, and the second time you donate it, it will have cost more mana then just using Zedruu in the first place. And it looks like it only helps if you've got a big Assemble the Legion going. Dissipation Field I probably wouldn't play without the plan to donate aggressively, although you have a lot more ETBs so you really can use it like that if you want. I was wondering why you play Dualcaster Mage but dropped Rite of Replication, but then I saw Ghostly Flicker and figured that'll work just fine.
A few utility things I'd really hope to sell you on. Pentad Prism I started playing from a suggestion from Hunding Gjornersen, and I've never once regretted it. It smooths the colors in a color hungry deck, acts as a delayed ritual that can kick start some explosive plays, and sticks around as an innocuous donation target. It's a little thing, but it's a really good little thing. The bounce lands are outstanding with Land Tax, Oath of Lieges, Mind Over Matter, and Mindmoil. If you're not up against Wasteland/Strip Mine most games, I can't recommend them enough. Paradox Haze doubles Zedruu and can be donated without downside. You've got Assemble the Legion to go with it as well. Also, it's one of those bizarre cards that let you do weird plays like enchanting the stax player to make their effects hurt themselves double.
The only real big card I think is sorely missing from your deck is Forced Fruition. It and Mind Over Matter together basically read "win the game," and it opens up some hilarious mill potential when you're really desperate. I've definitely lost to the card, either by milling myself or my opponent having the right answer at the right time, but I always have a blast playing it. It sort of feels a Final Fortune win or lose sort of gambit, and I like it a lot.
At any rate, let me know how that goes. I'd bet you're gonna get some good stories to tell out of that list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
(Also don't put down the amount of tokens this deck can reasonably get to, more when I track down a Paradox Haze and also consider a The Chain Veil & Ajani Steadfast to complete the planeswalkers I want)
I agree having given it a try that Dissipation Field needs to go and Forced Fruition is a card I have and have been meaning to try since I ran it in the ol Zombie Wizard.
(Also don't put down the amount of tokens this deck can reasonably get to, more when I track down a Paradox Haze and also consider a The Chain Veil & Ajani Steadfast to complete the planeswalkers I want)
The Chain Veil is something I thought of while looking at your list, but with Tezzeret and Teferi hanging about, I figured you didn't need it pointed out. I've never looked at Jace, Architect of Thought from the perspective of The Chain Veil though. The +1 is much better protection in duplicate. Cast him on a field with Brago and Chain Veil, you could give things -5 power and leave him at 7 loyalty ready to pop next turn, which is probably my favorite planeswalker ultimate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Actually put together the total list in the primer minus a Sol Ring for Mox Diamond. I've done a decent job of piloting the deck, but there are still many things to unlock. I think I'm going to add the Mirrorpool I pulled in draft for some laughs. It does mean I might need another source of colorless mana, so I may find room for either Worn Powerstone or a utility land. Any suggestions on a land that makes colorless?
Actually put together the total list in the primer minus a Sol Ring for Mox Diamond. I've done a decent job of piloting the deck, but there are still many things to unlock. I think I'm going to add the Mirrorpool I pulled in draft for some laughs. It does mean I might need another source of colorless mana, so I may find room for either Worn Powerstone or a utility land. Any suggestions on a land that makes colorless?
I've been planning ahead to be able to use Mirrorpool myself! So I spent my Christmas money on thefilterlands. Those cost too much money though (For the record, I got the regular ones. The preview for me is showing the expeditions. I did not buy expeditions, lol). Desolate Lighthouse doesn't though. Grand Coliseum is pretty cheap. And Tarnished Citadel. And Shimmering Grotto and friends. Basically, there's plenty of fine land options to give it support. And also don't forget that with Mind Over Matter or Turnabout, you can tap Mirrorpool for the colorless and then use its own colorless to feed itself.
There is a bit of a lag here with what's in my deck just because I want to make sure I like things before updating and don't have to undo the change right away. In the physical deck as it is now, the life-gain lands became filters, the Library of Leng became a Thought Vessel, and Infinite Reflection swapped out once I acquired a Sakashima, the Impostor. I'll probably change the first post later today.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I've had a lot of fun with Perplexing Chimera + Homeward Path. It combos well - allows Zeddruu to draw cards off his triggers or change the target of a spell.
I'm also surprised no one has mentioned Solitary Confinement. Zedruu allows you to draw cards anyway, and the protection is priceless, particularly if you donated cards like Steel Golem.
One of the WORST cards you can "donate" is Pyromancer's Swath. But that's more along my Zedruu the Jerk-Hearted build.
Actually put together the total list in the primer minus a Sol Ring for Mox Diamond. I've done a decent job of piloting the deck, but there are still many things to unlock. I think I'm going to add the Mirrorpool I pulled in draft for some laughs. It does mean I might need another source of colorless mana, so I may find room for either Worn Powerstone or a utility land. Any suggestions on a land that makes colorless?
I've been planning ahead to be able to use Mirrorpool myself! So I spent my Christmas money on thefilterlands. Those cost too much money though (For the record, I got the regular ones. The preview for me is showing the expeditions. I did not buy expeditions, lol). Desolate Lighthouse doesn't though. Grand Coliseum is pretty cheap. And Tarnished Citadel. And Shimmering Grotto and friends. Basically, there's plenty of fine land options to give it support. And also don't forget that with Mind Over Matter or Turnabout, you can tap Mirrorpool for the colorless and then use its own colorless to feed itself.
There is a bit of a lag here with what's in my deck just because I want to make sure I like things before updating and don't have to undo the change right away. In the physical deck as it is now, the life-gain lands became filters, the Library of Leng became a Thought Vessel, and Infinite Reflection swapped out once I acquired a Sakashima, the Impostor. I'll probably change the first post later today.
The filter lands are on my list now, though they are fairly pricey. I actually have Thought Vessel in for Library as well, but Infinite Refelction has been too funny for me to not keep in the deck. I got to give my Green opponent 15 Shimmer Myrs with Craterhoof Behemoth on the stack.
That interaction with Fog Bank was probably the hardest part of taking the walls out of my deck. Having someone think it doesn't matter because they're already pumped and attacking and then watching the light fade from their eyes as they reread Fog Bank.
Also, I'm heavily considering playing Shared Fate again now that rule 4 is gone. I played it a long time ago, but it never worked the way it was meant to, effectively soft locking the game sometimes, so I took it out in favor of less feel bad cards. It might swap for Temporal Trespass, since my one friends likes to complain about Time Walk for UUU and it's a fully redundant piece in the strategy. Frankly, looking for cuts, redundancy is basically what I'm looking for at this point. I tested Arjun out and found that with 2 copies, I basically hit Mindmoil every game, and with Mindmoil going I hit a draw doubler, and it was just too darn consistent for my liking. Every effect that's here in multiples that isn't a Clone or Howling Mine is living in fear right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Basically, it's a spout after drawing literally the entire deck. Drawing everything happens when I:
a)Get out Mindmoil and draw doubler, cast spells until I draw everything
b)Donate Forced Fruition, cast spells until I draw everything
c)Get out Swans, Seismic Assault, and probably a draw doubler to make it chain smoothly
d)Stick Temporal Cascade in Eye of the Storm, cast instants and sorceries until I draw everything.
Probably about 1/3 of my wins happen because I can draw the entire deck. And once that happens, Mind Over Matter or Dream Halls let me play cards pretty freely.
So let's imagine it's like turn 10 and I hit all my land drops with basic lands, and I've got Zedruu and like 5 other non-land permanents in play, and like 8 cards in hand to start the turn. Then I pay 6 for Mind Over Matter, discard 2 cards to untap 2 lands to tap for 6 for Forced Fruition. Discard 3 more to untap lands to donate Forced Frution. So I've played 2 cards and discarded 5 leaving me 1 card in hand, and guess what.. It's Memnite! Bam, play Memnite, and draw 7. At this point, every cast draws 7, so it's like discard 4 cards for 4 mana for Bam! Turnabout draw 7. After playing 10 or so cards this way (including Barren Glory and an extra turn and probably Gilded Lotus), I've got less than 7 cards left in the deck. Of the 70 cards I drew this way, 9 have been played, by discarding like 25 cards for mana. If half the cards cast were permanents, I now have Zedruu, 10 lands, Gilded Lotus, and 10 other assorted permanents, which is 22 non-Barren Glory permanents. I also have 36 cards in hand, and with Mind Over Matter and Gilded Lotus, those 36 cards become 36 mana of each color (discard all to untap Gilded Lotus and tap it 12 times for each color). 22 of each color with Zedruu can donate all 22 non-Barren Glory permanents with 42 mana to spare. Then I just pass the turn to myself and win. (So long as I don't do the thing I did the one time where I donated all my permanents to a 5 color deck and he just used Mind Over Matter to untap enough to donate one land back to me. Then he won on his turn, lol.)
I added Barren Glory in when I was making infinite mana with Sacred Ground and Price of Glory, but one game I had Barren Glory, Mind Over Matter, Zedruu, and a bounce land among my 12 total permanents, and I had 25 cards in hand because of Land Tax/Paradox Haze/Spellbook. and I was like "wait a second..."
Yeah, I'm gonna have to borrow this one... lol.
Edit: Wow, adding a quote to my signature makes it terribly bulky. I'll keep that long enough for some chuckles, but probably not forever.
To my left is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. To my right is a deck that manages to accomplish nothing of consequence in this scenario.
Over the first few turns, I got out Howling Mine, Zedruu, and Alhammarret's Archive. Drana killed Zedruu and played Bad Moon and hit me a few times. Then I played March of the Machines which let Howling Mine eat a kill spell and Drana hit me a 4th time, putting me at 18 commander damage (3+4+5+6). On my turn I played Blasphemous Act followed by Kami of the Crescent Moon. Drana player replays Drana, which is all their mana after a couple missed land drops. Person on my right plays Pristine Talisman. I play a bounce land and leave 4 mana open. When Drana swings at me for lethal, I Mirrorweave Pristine Talisman and block Drana for the trade, which buys me multiple turns since they lack the mana to cast her a third time. My next turn I play Zedruu, then they play Kokusho, the Evening Star. I donate March of the Machines to draw some, and hit Phyrexian Metamorph, Turnabout, and Time Spiral. I make my own Kokusho before untapping with Turnabout to play Time Spiral ending up with 8 mana available and a fresh hand, which finds me Gilded Lotus and Vanish Into Memory. So I play Lotus, pass, and Vanish Into Memory on Kokusho, which loots me into Seismic Assault and Academy Rector which gets Mind Over Matter which helps me stall a turn with some creature taps. Meanwhile, Drana plays Gray Merchant of Asphodel which puts me down to single digits of life. On my turn, I draw Expedition Map which finds Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, which activates 4 times in total using Mind Over Matter to untap it and effectively loot for 2 mana each time until hitting Rite of Replication, and then 9 mana kicks Rite of Replication on Gray Merchant and nukes the other players for 50 for the win. I love the struggle!
Also, I got both my wins of Vanish Into Memory draws today, it looting me 6 the first time and drawing me 7 the second time which ended the game before I even had to discard. I thought I was being cute with that card, but man can 4 mana to Fog + Draw do some serious work.
I imagine this is what it's like when you play the deck:
Also, if you ever feel that Memnite is a little too over-powered, you could run Saprazzan or Kyren Legates and donate basic lands as appropriate.
Haha! And shortly after that, a friend borrowed the deck and we were facing down Sanguine Bond / Exquisite Blood controlled by an Oloro deck, so imminent death coming. He processed his options and the only option that had any hope was draw 13 cards with 1 Island open. And then he hits both moxen and Temporal Trespass but without enough of a graveyard to delve all 8. But he had Leyline out, so if he discarded at end of turn, he could flash Temporal Trespass on my turn before we died... but Reliquary Tower was already in play and he'd already dropped a land so he couldn't bounce it back. So close, so very close.
Also, I do not think Memnite is over-powered, but I'll keep those in mind, lol.
My favorite part of reading that was when you went "I'm drawing 5 cards a turn which isn't too bad." It's like, "I had a full house every hand, so it was an alright night of poker." Lol
That's awesome how that worked out for you... unfortunately it's not quite as perfect as you think. When you donate Dissipation Field (or its stolen from you in play) and kill someone, it comes back to you because the effect giving control ends. When the card enters under the battlefield under an opponent's control, as is the case when cast with Praetor's Grasp, there is no effect to end, and it gets exiled along with the rest of their things when they die. Perhaps I should put a guide of just permanent control rulings in a spoiler somewhere... although if the rest of the table just scooped, it doesn't really matter if you couldn't kill them, does it?
Also, if anyone sees something wrong or missing in the stuff I added, please tell me. It'd be quite the embarrassment to leave misinformation up for the world to see.
The problem is that I know the groups of people I play in and there doesn't seem to be enough disruption to make it work for my meta so it is time to get crafting.
Great Thread.
If you're want to stuck disruption in, you're absolutely in the right colors at least. I'm playing almost exactly none of it, but Jeskai has some of the best in the game. From white's one mana creature removal and enchantment hate, to reds nonbasic and artifact hate, to all of the best counterspells in the game. It's also the color combo that lets you play counterspells with Sunforger. You can stop people from searching libraries, from playing too many spells, from using their graveyard; the world of disruption is at your fingertips.
I don't know exactly what you mean though. If you're saying you'd like something like this but with more disruption, it's not hard to make cuts. This deck plays like 10-15 cards to act as the win conditions, which is downright excessive. Replacing a couple infinite combos with good old answers is a totally doable thing.
If you mean that you'd like a jeskai control deck, I'd argue Zedruu is really the right choice. Jeskai is a combination of colors with all sorts of possible strategies, which makes it particularly strange that the other generals all feel like they're asking how many combats you'd like to end the game in: 4, 3, 2, or 1? Zedruu gains you life and draws you card, what better engine could you want for a control deck?
Edit: Oh, and thanks for the comment!
The deck right now is like $250, but for the first half of this deck's life, it was under 100 dollars, and it worked well enough then to already be my favorite deck.
Step 1: Take out the moxen, add in cheap lands, bam $40 gone. (-40)
Step 2: Take out Mind Over Matter and follow that line to a bunch of other things. Mikokoro and Forbidden Orchard do very little interesting without Mind Over Matter and with those out the mana base is pretty much rock bottom budget. Land Tax loses some of its power without the ultimate discard effect (of course Land Tax is still very good, but we're trying to make budget cuts here so kill it with fire). Those 4 things pull out another $35. (-75)
Step 3: Hit the broken free value stuff. Time Spiral is money, Academy Rector is money, Dream Halls is some money, Tidespout Tyrant is some money. And Jace and Venser and Temporal Mastery. Take those out and we're down another 55 dollars. (-130)
Step 4: Get really stingy. Anvil of Bogardan is very marginal for it's money value. Copy enchantment as well. And Phyrexian Metamorph. And Firestorm. And Gilded Lotus is the last most expensive thing in the deck so cut that anyway. 25 dollars. (-155)
Woohoo! If my old deck estimate of $250 still holds up, that should put us down 18 cards and just under $100. The list of cards still worth more than 2 dollars is:
Forced Fruition
Leyline of Anticipation
Teferi's Puzzle Box
Turnabout
Kami of the Crescent Moon
Font of Mythos
Vedalken Orrery
Rest in Peace
And I personally feel all those things justify their price tag very much so. If you really wanted to go without the flash enablers, you could, but they're just so much fun, I'd cry to be without them. So with 18 cards out, some holes need to be plugged up. We need some more land to replace the 2 moxen and the 2 lands and some of the free value. At least 4 more lands to replace those, probably 5 since suddenly we actually need mana to do things. Basics should be fine, or any cheap multicolor lands you have lying around. I hear those scry temples have tanked since they rotated, and Sol Ring isn't totally cheap, but play if you have it already, who cares. The infinite combos with Tidespout Tyrant go with it, as well as the one with Mind Over Matter. That's fine, they're rather new in the deck and I hardly use them anyway. The infinite turns combo loses temporal mastery though, so it could probably use some bolstering since Temporal Trespass is the only way to go off. They require a little extra work, but you can do the trick with Second Chance or Ugin's Nexus. Second Chance can go with Form of the Dragon. Ugin's Nexus can go with a way to sacrifice artifacts, like Megatog or Shape Anew (which requires more careful play, stacking the deck correctly to draw the nexus and shape anew and then doing shape anew into Mirror of Fate, but its a fun card on its own. Turns Pentad Prism into Alhammarret's Archive, maybe).
5 lands and 2 of those things puts us at 11 empty slots left, and there's a few 1 to 1 replacements worth noting. Time Reversal or the slightly more expensive Day's Undoing can replace Time Spiral. Conflagrate is a big overlap with Firestorm while also being like 10 cents. There are .50 clones (like Clone) that can most be a metamorph since there's no gilded lotus to free copy anyway. Mikokoro and anvil of bogardan can become cheaper howling mine imitations. Temple Bell is safe without MOM, as is Otherwordly Atlas. Well of Ideas or Mind Unbound or Staff of Nin can also draw cards each turn for low money cost, but dont pretend they do the same thing. The draw being cheap and early is important here. Add a couple of those in as well, and we've got most of the actions reavailable with like 6 slots left.
The difference between the new budgety version and what I play is speed and explosiveness. It's sacrificed the ability to play things for free or untap all the lands repeatedly. There are 2 ways you can go to fill the rest.
a) Even more group hug. Braids, Conjurer Adept, Mana Flare, Wild Evocation, Gate to the Aether, Arcane Melee. There are cards that let you throw things out onto the field because they let everyone do it. I wish Show and Tell was a 10 cent card, but oh well, we manage. You can't really replace how explosive Mind Over Matter or Dream Halls are, but you can certainly get an engine quick enough to make things interesting.
b) Accept the slowness and prepare for the long haul. The full suite of Propoganda effects was in this deck when it was cheaper. You could certainly run some removal in these colors to stay alive. You could grab a Well of Lost Dreams and throw the 5 best lifegain cards you can find in. Anything to keep you alive long enough for the shenanigans to matter.
Oh, and I almost forgot, one slot has to be something that un-donates Forced Fruition. A Boomerang, or a Disenchant, or something. Without Venser or Tidespout Tyrant, you lose most of the ways to not mill out in that situation. Or even better, forget Shape Anew from above and play Reweave. Kill two birds with one weird, cheap Kamigawa instant.
I'll probably clean this up into a fully coherent guide at some point and paste it back to the first post.
For sure what I meant is I play with a set group of people and I am the person of that group that has to explain the interactions between 5 cards two of which no one else has heard of. So people have gotten wise to that and the aggressive decks and mid-range style decks I play against don't suffer a more dedicated combo deck to live and the amount of spot removal I play with runs the gamut.
I like the Goat a lot and the deck will be some weird and wild version of this thing, I love it but I can't emulate it.
EDIT:
Version 1 that came out the other end.
1x Zedruu the Greathearted
Land (36)
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Buried Ruin
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x High Market
8x Island
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mountain
1x Mystic Gate
6x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Strip Mine
1x Temple of the False God
1x Tolaria West
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
Artifact (10)
1x Alhammarret's Archive
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Crown of Doom
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Font of Mythos
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Howling Mine
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sol Ring
1x Assemble the Legion
1x Copy Enchantment
1x Dissipation Field
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Land Tax
1x Leyline of Anticipation
1x Mind Over Matter
1x Mindmoil
1x Oath of Lieges
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Possibility Storm
1x Propaganda
1x Rhystic Study
1x Standstill
Instant (11)
1x Brainstorm
1x Cryptic Command
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Evacuation
1x Frantic Search
1x Ghostly Flicker
1x Mirrorweave
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Reiterate
1x Turnabout
Sorcery (6)
1x All Is Dust
1x Blasphemous Act
1x Recurring Insight
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Walk the Aeons
1x Academy Rector
1x Archaeomancer
1x Brago, King Eternal
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Dualcaster Mage
1x Humble Defector
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Sun Titan
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Planeswalker (8)
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Elspeth Tirel
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Venser, the Sojourner
Well that looks solid. My comments...
Crown of Doom I think is a little wishful thinking. I can't imagine how it wouldn't just be thrown back to you every turn, and the second time you donate it, it will have cost more mana then just using Zedruu in the first place. And it looks like it only helps if you've got a big Assemble the Legion going. Dissipation Field I probably wouldn't play without the plan to donate aggressively, although you have a lot more ETBs so you really can use it like that if you want. I was wondering why you play Dualcaster Mage but dropped Rite of Replication, but then I saw Ghostly Flicker and figured that'll work just fine.
A few utility things I'd really hope to sell you on. Pentad Prism I started playing from a suggestion from Hunding Gjornersen, and I've never once regretted it. It smooths the colors in a color hungry deck, acts as a delayed ritual that can kick start some explosive plays, and sticks around as an innocuous donation target. It's a little thing, but it's a really good little thing. The bounce lands are outstanding with Land Tax, Oath of Lieges, Mind Over Matter, and Mindmoil. If you're not up against Wasteland/Strip Mine most games, I can't recommend them enough. Paradox Haze doubles Zedruu and can be donated without downside. You've got Assemble the Legion to go with it as well. Also, it's one of those bizarre cards that let you do weird plays like enchanting the stax player to make their effects hurt themselves double.
The only real big card I think is sorely missing from your deck is Forced Fruition. It and Mind Over Matter together basically read "win the game," and it opens up some hilarious mill potential when you're really desperate. I've definitely lost to the card, either by milling myself or my opponent having the right answer at the right time, but I always have a blast playing it. It sort of feels a Final Fortune win or lose sort of gambit, and I like it a lot.
At any rate, let me know how that goes. I'd bet you're gonna get some good stories to tell out of that list.
(Also don't put down the amount of tokens this deck can reasonably get to, more when I track down a Paradox Haze and also consider a The Chain Veil & Ajani Steadfast to complete the planeswalkers I want)
I agree having given it a try that Dissipation Field needs to go and Forced Fruition is a card I have and have been meaning to try since I ran it in the ol Zombie Wizard.
Ha! Well, I earned that RTFC. lol
The Chain Veil is something I thought of while looking at your list, but with Tezzeret and Teferi hanging about, I figured you didn't need it pointed out. I've never looked at Jace, Architect of Thought from the perspective of The Chain Veil though. The +1 is much better protection in duplicate. Cast him on a field with Brago and Chain Veil, you could give things -5 power and leave him at 7 loyalty ready to pop next turn, which is probably my favorite planeswalker ultimate.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I've been planning ahead to be able to use Mirrorpool myself! So I spent my Christmas money on the filter lands. Those cost too much money though (For the record, I got the regular ones. The preview for me is showing the expeditions. I did not buy expeditions, lol). Desolate Lighthouse doesn't though. Grand Coliseum is pretty cheap. And Tarnished Citadel. And Shimmering Grotto and friends. Basically, there's plenty of fine land options to give it support. And also don't forget that with Mind Over Matter or Turnabout, you can tap Mirrorpool for the colorless and then use its own colorless to feed itself.
There is a bit of a lag here with what's in my deck just because I want to make sure I like things before updating and don't have to undo the change right away. In the physical deck as it is now, the life-gain lands became filters, the Library of Leng became a Thought Vessel, and Infinite Reflection swapped out once I acquired a Sakashima, the Impostor. I'll probably change the first post later today.
Edit: Ninja'd! There's also the simple swap of Azorius Signet -> Talisman of Progress.
I'm also surprised no one has mentioned Solitary Confinement. Zedruu allows you to draw cards anyway, and the protection is priceless, particularly if you donated cards like Steel Golem.
One of the WORST cards you can "donate" is Pyromancer's Swath. But that's more along my Zedruu the Jerk-Hearted build.
The filter lands are on my list now, though they are fairly pricey. I actually have Thought Vessel in for Library as well, but Infinite Refelction has been too funny for me to not keep in the deck. I got to give my Green opponent 15 Shimmer Myrs with Craterhoof Behemoth on the stack.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Had some fun this weekend Mirrorweaveing a Fog Bank after our green player Tooth and Nailed a Pathbreaker Ibex and Craterhoof Behemoth (with haste enablers for the goat). He got sad real quick (then died before his next turn).
Also, I'm heavily considering playing Shared Fate again now that rule 4 is gone. I played it a long time ago, but it never worked the way it was meant to, effectively soft locking the game sometimes, so I took it out in favor of less feel bad cards. It might swap for Temporal Trespass, since my one friends likes to complain about Time Walk for UUU and it's a fully redundant piece in the strategy. Frankly, looking for cuts, redundancy is basically what I'm looking for at this point. I tested Arjun out and found that with 2 copies, I basically hit Mindmoil every game, and with Mindmoil going I hit a draw doubler, and it was just too darn consistent for my liking. Every effect that's here in multiples that isn't a Clone or Howling Mine is living in fear right now.