Introduction
The deck plays like a Voltron deck with a heavy removal suite and a reanimation package that scales up in multiplayer games. It generates and uses up big mana in order to chain multiple spells in a single turn for an explosive play.
Tragic Slip, Bile Blight and Dismember kill via reducing toughness to 0. They are good for taking out creatures with indestructibility. Bile Blight has the added bonus of acting as a board wipe against token strategies or copy cards. Dismember can be played at a low cost in a pinch and even for 0 if we have Jet Medallion out on the field.
Diabolic Edict, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger cause our opponent to sac a creature instead of targeting anything in particular. This is useful against decks with a hexproof commander or indestructible creatures as well. Using our other removals to control their creature base, allows us to "target" what we want to hit with these spells.
Last group of removals consist of the standard destroy type. These are just low cost removals that hit most of the targets we are hoping for. Snuff Out and Slaughter Pact can't target black creatures but can be casted for 0. Very useful for tricking opponents' into a false sense of security or getting free toshiro triggers. Malicious Attraction is a pseudo boardwipe as it can potentially hit up to 4 targets for only 4 mana at instant speed.
Spoils of Blood: Very nice card to play after a Board Wipe or Reanimation chain. Usually generating two huge creatures for the low price of BB. Withering Boon: I put this into the deck as response one of my other commanders, Borborygmous Enraged. That deck usually ramped up to 8 mana,then casted Borborygmous and killed all 3 opponents within the same turn. Not even killing as soon as it came out could help against that. That's when i realized, sometimes we just have to make sure certain creatures never resolve. Thats the purpose of Withering Boon. To counter the creatures that would just wreck the game as soon as they resolve. Imp's Mischief: Used to redirect spot removals targeted at your creatures. Nothing like a Imp's Mischief in the graveyard to tell people not to mess with you. Hatred: Instant win with a clear board, and having a clear board is pretty easy. Sudden Spoiling: The most versatile card in the deck. Can be used as a combat trick to get kills from creatures. Can be used as a fog. Can be used to shut-out activated or triggered abilities for a turn(or 2).
Lands
The land count in the deck is 34. The deck runs 10 mana production spells out of which 2 are instants and can be recurred, putting our effective land count at 40. Phyrexian Tower and High Market are the sac outlets in the deck, allowing us to sac and reanimate our creatures to generate extra value. Making them land makes it slightly easier to tutor and more resilient to traditional removals. Cabal Coffers, Nykthos and Thawing Glaciers help generate tons of mana, further supported by Deserted Temple, Urborg, Thespians Stage and Vesuva. Arcane Lighthouse allows us to deal with hexproof creatures. Bojuka Bog is graveyard hate for decks that like to abuse it. Reliquary Tower allows for spell hoarding especially with Necropotence. Forbidden Orchard allows us to get additional toshiro triggers for when our opponents run out of creatures or refuse to play any.
Gameplan
The basic gameplan is pretty simple. Play Toshiro, equip him and swing till your opponent is dead by clearing out his blockers with removals and reanimating or recasting toshiro whenever he gets taken out. The alternate gameplan is also pretty simple. Play any one of our creatures, and abuse them by chump blocking with them or saccing them to lands and reanimating them back, as many times as possible. Creatures like Burnished Hart and Solemn and Simulacrum ramp and/or draw cards,fueling something like Exsanguinate. Fleshbag Marauder and friends control the board and generate toshiro triggers, allowing us to spell sling with something like Sphinx-Bone Wand. Puppeteer Clique and Sepulchral Primordial steal creatures from our opponents' graveyards while Delver reanimates out own stuff. Gray Merchant and Kokusho drain our opponents' life while refilling ours killing all of them in a few reanimations.
What's Next
This thread is nowhere close to done. I just wanted to post a barebones version of each of my remaining commanders while i'm transitioning from my previous spreadsheets. Further explanations on creature choices to come later. As always feel free to comment, critique, discuss, question or flame. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on anything or have suggestions. Take a look at my other builds located below in my signature.
It is fun to see how different in approach our lists are. How often do you kill people with Toshiro out of curiosity as it looks like you have quite a bit of voltron option to your list.
How has Spoils of Blood worked for you out of curiosity? I have not tried it myself.
Love the list, but I am surprised at the lack of sweeper spells. Most of your removal is spot removal, like Malicious Affliction. Have you found that you've never needed a sweeper like Damnation, or Decree of Pain?
It is fun to see how different in approach our lists are. How often do you kill people with Toshiro out of curiosity as it looks like you have quite a bit of voltron option to your list.
How has Spoils of Blood worked for you out of curiosity? I have not tried it myself.
In 1v1 games, most of the kills come from commander damage with Toshiro. In multiplayer games, Toshiro tends to take a backseat and the deck plays abit more like a rattlesnake (Telling people they won't lose their creatures unless they swing against you). Usually taking the game slowly till I reach critical mana mass and/or my opponents' lives are low enough for an explosive play to win the game. This usually means a eot reanimation chain on something like sepulchral primordial to get a bunch of fatties or kokusho/gray merchant of asphodel for life drain. Otherwise it's just a standard Exsanguinate. Voltron wins are quite rare unless its to finish off a straggler or something.
As for the equipment, I'm still thinking on whether I should cut Darksteel Plate and Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho. Unlike the other equipment that fit the Toshiro curve well by coming out turn 2 and/or being equipped by turn 4, these 2 come in at turn 3, which is usually when I want to cast Toshiro instead.
I've only gotten Spoils of Blood twice since i put in into the deck (c14). Early impressions are that the card isn't high impact, as 2 4/4s or even 6/6s arent going to do whole lot in the grand scheme of things. The card is also going to draw hate if played after a board wipe, although that is usually already the case since I currently spend toshiro triggers on reanimations after wraths. I'd like to play a game where i can see it's potential with 10/10-20/20 horrors resulting from a board wipe before i decide if it gets a permanent spot. For now i'll just say that it's a pretty good value play in terms of generic creatures.
Love the list, but I am surprised at the lack of sweeper spells. Most of your removal is spot removal, like Malicious Affliction. Have you found that you've never needed a sweeper like Damnation, or Decree of Pain?
In 1v1's, I don't usually feel myself thinking that i could use a board wipe. Most of the time, the opponents' board would be cleared. and i'd be thinking of how to get my forbidden orchard into play so that i can give them more tokens to kill. This isnt true for decks that run token generators like Bitterblossom or Genesis chamber in a Norin deck. In those matchups, having a random board wipe could prove useful, but wouldnt solve the underlying issue which is that we need to get rid of those problem enchantments or artifacts. In terms of wipe potential, i already run Tsabo's Decree and Oblivion Stone. Nevinryall's Disk could be a future addition as well. I don't think I would play something like Damnation since it only hits creatures and cannot be flashed back.
In multiplayer games, I usually let my opponents' fight it out and wrath one another, since i usually have only 1-2 creatures on the field at any time. I do not try to clear the board in multiplayer games, and rather just use them at creatures swinging in my direction.
How well has Phyrexian Delver served you? It seems like it might be a bit underwhelming for a Toshiro deck.
No clue atm. It was a recent addition and have not come up in any games yet. The reasoning I had for adding it in was because I felt it might work well in conjunction with the other reanimates in the deck. For example, it gets around the restrictions of Wake the Dead and Corpse Dance or even Shallow Grave once i find a spot for that to allow us to keep the creatures we want past the turn. Not sure if the card will live up to expectations. For now it simply serves as an additional recursion card, on a stick.
For now it simply serves as an additional recursion card, on a stick.
Seems reasonable.
I haven't had much luck with Hatred over the years, even in more aggressive decklists. I found that in a lot of circumstances it had maybe a 50% chance of killing a player, with, say, a 75% chance that I would die myself within the next turn or so. (Numbers are in no sense exact, but you should get the idea.)
I love Hatred. It's one of those cards that needs to be used as a finisher, not anything else. I'll give examples on how i usually play it.
In 1v1's, I wait for my opponent to tap out, casting that creature or something. EoT, i destroy that creature(s) to create an open board. On my turn Hatred for the kill since he can't stop me.
In multiplayer, it's often used when at least 1 other player has been knocked out of the game. The most recent game where I used it in multiplayer was against Blind Seer, Mayael the Anima and Norin the Wary. Blind Seer got hated out of the game first for being a douche and playing Back to Basics and Invoke Prejudice. Toshiro had an Overseer of the Damned and Toshiro Umezawa on the board. Norin had a bunch of tokens, and Mayael had 1 fatty. Toshiro played Gray Merchant of Asphodel, then at end of opponent's turn, sacced it to Phyrexian tower, and recurred it with something. This brought the opponents' lives down to reasonable levels while bumping up Toshiro. Then Toshiro starts his turn, declares attack with Toshiro at Mayael and Overseer at Norin. Casts hatred on Toshiro for enough to kill with commander dmg, casts removal to clear the blocker and flashes back hatred on the overseer which couldn't be blocked because of flying.
The idea is to not cast hatred just because you have it in hand, but to play as per normal until an opportunity presents itself.
play as per normal until an opportunity presents itself.
Yeah, I guess that feels a bit iffy for me for a five-mana card role. It seems like it might be dead a little too often. Though my playstyle for mono-black control is a bit more aggressive, I would imagine.
Yeah i certainly wouldnt recommend it for any commander apart from toshiro. It's a situational card. Being able to flash it back makes a rather big difference. It also fits the deck since i tend to play somewhat draw-go ish till i intend to make an explosive move and the card helps me get many expected wins that way.
The most common suggestion spot I've seen for it was in Xiahou Dun, at which point I immediately shake my head, though mostly because of the resource cost at that point. Maybe in a more creature-based build than mine, though. I do like the thought of running it with Nighthawk.
I took a quick glance at your decklist and can safely say hatred dosen't belong in there, ever. Your deck is pretty damn cutthroat and your mana curve is really low. Hatred is entirely too slow for you, especially when you'd rather combo off by going infinite and wiping every player out of the game instead. It would only be considerable if the deck was going more voltron-ish, or aggro with lifelink creatures, and didnt run infinite combos, with a much slower mana curve. In other words, you are right in not playing hatred for your deck. Often, card recommendations can be too broad and should be taken with several grains of salt unless its directed specifically to your build.
I took a quick glance at your decklist and can safely say hatred dosen't belong in there, ever. Your deck is pretty damn cutthroat and your mana curve is really low. Hatred is entirely too slow for you, especially when you'd rather combo off by going infinite and wiping every player out of the game instead. It would only be considerable if the deck was going more voltron-ish, or aggro with lifelink creatures, and didnt run infinite combos, with a much slower mana curve. In other words, you are right in not playing hatred for your deck. Often, card recommendations can be too broad and should be taken with several grains of salt unless its directed specifically to your build.
Yeah, about what I figured.
I like the land base here, especially that Forbidden Orchard tech... I think Vesuva/Thespian Stage might be a little overreaching on the Coffers/Shrine package, but it's not completely unreasonable given that you also have the other options. I don't know how much of a token theme there is in your meta, but I found Sudden Death and Nameless Inversion to both be more useful than Bile Blight when tokens aren't as much of a consideration.
I like the land base here, especially that Forbidden Orchard tech... I think Vesuva/Thespian Stage might be a little overreaching on the Coffers/Shrine package, but it's not completely unreasonable given that you also have the other options. I don't know how much of a token theme there is in your meta, but I found Sudden Death and Nameless Inversion to both be more useful than Bile Blight when tokens aren't as much of a consideration.
Vesuva and Thespian's stage is there not only for the coffers and shrine, but also for things like thawing glaciers/deserted temple on the mana front but also phyrexian tower and high market for additional sac outlets. I'm considering a spot for that land that is a sac engine but dosen't tap for mana as well. Usually it's because the limiting factor to my reaniamation chains is how many times i can kill my own creature in a turn. I've even used removal against myself in times of need.
Bile Blight is there as a pseudo wipe against tokens. I didnt need the -x/-x in all honesty as dismember and tragic slip cover that front quite well and I actually prefer removal like diabolic edict in most cases.
I have tested Word of Command. I felt that it was a hit or miss kind of spell that was too random for my taste. Oftentimes i would be unable to disrupt my opponent in any way after casting it. The price tag was unjustifiable under any circumstances, so i cut it. I also wrote up abit on it when i asked ISB about his thoughts on the card.
Word of Command - I played with the card for a short while. While i like that it's a card you won't find anyone else playing and all, which it comes down to utility i feel like its a tad bit lacking. Players usually respond to it by playing whatever instants they already had in their hand. The one time this payed off big was when my opponent responded with beast within and I responded with Imp's Mischief. Ended up cutting it after awhile.
When playing it against a deck with heavy instants it generally makes them panic cast spells. That can be useful as it can mean someone tapping out to keep you off of casting their spells. There generally tend to be players with less instants in the game so considering what your opponent's deck looks like can be useful as well. Remember that you dont have to abide to when spells can normally be cast when you cast it so during someone's draw step you can hit them with this and force them to cast a sorcery (IE a wrath) if you want.
I generally consider it a card where you want to be able to read your opponents with. The better feel you have for how they play, their deck makeup, and what they would not be willing to cast at a given time the better it is going to work for you.
Also, you can get beat up white bordered copies in the low $30 range which isn't so bad. Thats how I ended up going with it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Remember that you dont have to abide to when spells can normally be cast when you cast it so during someone's draw step you can hit them with this and force them to cast a sorcery (IE a wrath) if you want.
Wait, what? Really? Hm. I've looked over the rulings a couple times, and didn't get that from them. I guess since the player plays the card as part of the resolution of Word of Command, that would make sense, though.
Wait, what? Really? Hm. I've looked over the rulings a couple times, and didn't get that from them. I guess since the player plays the card as part of the resolution of Word of Command, that would make sense, though.
That thread is awesome. Especially the "Word of Command into Word of Command." I'm happy that I picked one up for testing in Xiahou Dun. Looking forward to when that comes in.
@Silenciaco: How often do you end up actually getting Black Market to work?
When playing it against a deck with heavy instants it generally makes them panic cast spells. That can be useful as it can mean someone tapping out to keep you off of casting their spells. There generally tend to be players with less instants in the game so considering what your opponent's deck looks like can be useful as well. Remember that you dont have to abide to when spells can normally be cast when you cast it so during someone's draw step you can hit them with this and force them to cast a sorcery (IE a wrath) if you want.
I generally consider it a card where you want to be able to read your opponents with. The better feel you have for how they play, their deck makeup, and what they would not be willing to cast at a given time the better it is going to work for you.
Also, you can get beat up white bordered copies in the low $30 range which isn't so bad. Thats how I ended up going with it.
Interesting, i did not know that WoC could bypass the card timing restrictions. Honestly, that would probably make a pretty big difference to my earlier assessment. Being able to force an instant speed wrath or even help opponent A cast a creature in response to getting attacked by opponent B to earn political points may just be worth the occasional whiffs. I guess i'll put this back under consideration and look for a spot to retest it after i find one for Shallow Grave.
That thread is awesome. Especially the "Word of Command into Word of Command." I'm happy that I picked one up for testing in Xiahou Dun. Looking forward to when that comes in.
@Silenciaco: How often do you end up actually getting Black Market to work?
Black Market is a card that i've been wanting to play with ever since i started EDH but just could not find a proper home for before Toshiro. It feels alot better if I manage to play it early with a Sol Ring or Dark/Cabal Ritual. Otherwise, tapping out on turn 5 usually dosen't seem the right move to play it, and i'd likely wait till I have 7+ mana before I do. That is unless I have one of those 0 mana removals in hand. In a single player game, it usually takes awhile to start churning out decent amounts of mana. In multiplayer i usually get between 1-3 mana on my next turn, and things start getting crazy after a wrath. When it does go active, it usually fuels one of my win-cons like chain-reanimating or spell slinging with Sphinx-Bone Wand or a simple exsanguinate. So far, it hasn't been blown up by targeted removal, so i guess my opponents' don't consider it a threat. i feel like the effect is powerful, considering it's drawback back when it was printed was mana burn, which no longer exists. In conclusion, it's a personal pet choice for me, and I feel that it enables my explosive playstyle pretty well, although the mana cost is of slight concern.
Made some changes to the decklist.
- Darksteel Plate + Diamond Valley
- Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho + Shallow Grave
As i mentioned previously, Darksteel Plate and Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho competed with Toshiro on the mana curve at 3 mana, and i usually want to cast Toshiro instead. Darksteel Plate is a good card an all, but Toshiro's effect triggers through wraths and such, and his initial mana cost is low enough to cast several times a game, so it feels somewhat unnecessary to use. The same reasoning could be said for Oathkeeper which is conditional recursion specific to toshiro, with a drawback.
I added in Diamond Valley and Shallow Grave instead in those spots. Diamond Valley serves as an additional sac outlet and lifegain mechanic, both of which this deck could use more of. Diamond Valley, dosen't tap for mana, so i didn't put it in a "mana producer" slot. However, it would infact produce mana with Urborg, so i guess the effective land count does go up by some arbitrary amount. Shallow Grave is an additional source of recursion takes the place of Oathkeeper. It's very well costed at 2, but requires a sac engine in play to send the target back into the yard. All the other instant speed reanimation spells don';t quite synergise all that well in the deck due to the high mana cost or being something like Underworld Dreams. So at this point i'm not sure if i'll be testing those out in the future.
Shortlist for cutting:
Exsanguinate
Isochron Scepter
Jet Medallion
These 3 cards are on the shortlist for removal, because i'm not too happy with them in some way or another.
Exsanguinate is ridiculously good, but i feel like it is the deck simply because it is a "goodstuff" type of card in mono black. If possible, i'd like to move away from that once i find a suitable replacement to take it's place.
Isochron Scepter is also excellent, but feels "unfun" to be on the receiving end of, which I would like to remove whenever possible.
Jet Medallion didn't work out too well for me in a recent game, when i needed to play some big mana cards like Sphinx-Bone Wand. Add to that the fact that many of my instants cost B or BB, reducing the effectiveness of the Medallion. I'll give it a bit more time, but if i find it failing me a few more times, i'm going to remove it.
1 Toshiro Umezawa
Creatures - 17
1 Burnished Hart
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Slum Reaper
1 Overseer of the Damned
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Sepulchral Primordial
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Coffin Queen
Artifacts and Equipment - 12
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Expedition Map
1 Jet Medallion
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sphinx-Bone Wand
1 Brain in a Jar
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lashwrithe
1 Nightmare Lash
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
Planeswalkers - 1
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Sorceries - 1
1 Demonic Tutor
Instants - 31
1 Cremate
1 Wretched Confluence
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Warping Wail
1 Withering Boon
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Hatred
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Word of Command
1 Undying Evil
1 Shallow Grave
1 Wake the Dead
1 Grim Return
1 Corpse Dance
1 Makeshift Mannequin
1 Tragic Slip
1 Bile Blight
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Snuff Out
1 Malicious Affliction
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vesuva
1 Deserted Temple
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Diamond Valley
21 Swamps
Introduction
The deck plays like a Voltron deck with a heavy removal suite and a reanimation package that scales up in multiplayer games. It generates and uses up big mana in order to chain multiple spells in a single turn for an explosive play.
Instants
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual
Undying Evil, Wake the Dead, Grim Return, Corpse Dance, Makeshift Mannequin
Tragic Slip, Bile Blight, Dismember
Diabolic Edict, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger
Go for the Throat, Victim of Night, Hero's Downfall, Tsabo's Decree, Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out, Malicious Affliction
Tragic Slip, Bile Blight and Dismember kill via reducing toughness to 0. They are good for taking out creatures with indestructibility. Bile Blight has the added bonus of acting as a board wipe against token strategies or copy cards. Dismember can be played at a low cost in a pinch and even for 0 if we have Jet Medallion out on the field.
Diabolic Edict, Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger cause our opponent to sac a creature instead of targeting anything in particular. This is useful against decks with a hexproof commander or indestructible creatures as well. Using our other removals to control their creature base, allows us to "target" what we want to hit with these spells.
Last group of removals consist of the standard destroy type. These are just low cost removals that hit most of the targets we are hoping for. Snuff Out and Slaughter Pact can't target black creatures but can be casted for 0. Very useful for tricking opponents' into a false sense of security or getting free toshiro triggers. Malicious Attraction is a pseudo boardwipe as it can potentially hit up to 4 targets for only 4 mana at instant speed.
Withering Boon: I put this into the deck as response one of my other commanders, Borborygmous Enraged. That deck usually ramped up to 8 mana,then casted Borborygmous and killed all 3 opponents within the same turn. Not even killing as soon as it came out could help against that. That's when i realized, sometimes we just have to make sure certain creatures never resolve. Thats the purpose of Withering Boon. To counter the creatures that would just wreck the game as soon as they resolve.
Imp's Mischief: Used to redirect spot removals targeted at your creatures. Nothing like a Imp's Mischief in the graveyard to tell people not to mess with you.
Hatred: Instant win with a clear board, and having a clear board is pretty easy.
Sudden Spoiling: The most versatile card in the deck. Can be used as a combat trick to get kills from creatures. Can be used as a fog. Can be used to shut-out activated or triggered abilities for a turn(or 2).
Lands
The land count in the deck is 34. The deck runs 10 mana production spells out of which 2 are instants and can be recurred, putting our effective land count at 40.
Phyrexian Tower and High Market are the sac outlets in the deck, allowing us to sac and reanimate our creatures to generate extra value. Making them land makes it slightly easier to tutor and more resilient to traditional removals.
Cabal Coffers, Nykthos and Thawing Glaciers help generate tons of mana, further supported by Deserted Temple, Urborg, Thespians Stage and Vesuva.
Arcane Lighthouse allows us to deal with hexproof creatures.
Bojuka Bog is graveyard hate for decks that like to abuse it.
Reliquary Tower allows for spell hoarding especially with Necropotence.
Forbidden Orchard allows us to get additional toshiro triggers for when our opponents run out of creatures or refuse to play any.
Gameplan
The basic gameplan is pretty simple. Play Toshiro, equip him and swing till your opponent is dead by clearing out his blockers with removals and reanimating or recasting toshiro whenever he gets taken out. The alternate gameplan is also pretty simple. Play any one of our creatures, and abuse them by chump blocking with them or saccing them to lands and reanimating them back, as many times as possible. Creatures like Burnished Hart and Solemn and Simulacrum ramp and/or draw cards,fueling something like Exsanguinate. Fleshbag Marauder and friends control the board and generate toshiro triggers, allowing us to spell sling with something like Sphinx-Bone Wand. Puppeteer Clique and Sepulchral Primordial steal creatures from our opponents' graveyards while Delver reanimates out own stuff. Gray Merchant and Kokusho drain our opponents' life while refilling ours killing all of them in a few reanimations.
What's Next
This thread is nowhere close to done. I just wanted to post a barebones version of each of my remaining commanders while i'm transitioning from my previous spreadsheets. Further explanations on creature choices to come later. As always feel free to comment, critique, discuss, question or flame. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on anything or have suggestions. Take a look at my other builds located below in my signature.
Grave Titan
Mikheaus the Unhallowed
Dark Prophecy
Massacre Wurm
Scour from Existence
Hedonist's Trove (Lazav)
- Darksteel Plate + Diamond Valley
- Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho + Shallow Grave
- Exsanguinate + Crypt Incursion
- Phyrexian Delver + Disciple of Bolas
- Slaughter Pact + Sidisi, Undead Vizier
- Isochron Scepter + Word of Command
- Swiftfoot Boots + Abhorrent Overlord
- Scroll of the Masters + Liliana, Heretical healer
- Liliana, Heretical Healer + Coffin Queen
- Black Market + Massacre Wurm
- Ad Nauseam + Wretched Confluence
- Moonlight Bargain + Brain in a Jar
- Spoils of Blood + Warping Wail
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
How has Spoils of Blood worked for you out of curiosity? I have not tried it myself.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Very fun list, though. I love the inclusion of Withering Boon and Imp's Mischief.
In 1v1 games, most of the kills come from commander damage with Toshiro. In multiplayer games, Toshiro tends to take a backseat and the deck plays abit more like a rattlesnake (Telling people they won't lose their creatures unless they swing against you). Usually taking the game slowly till I reach critical mana mass and/or my opponents' lives are low enough for an explosive play to win the game. This usually means a eot reanimation chain on something like sepulchral primordial to get a bunch of fatties or kokusho/gray merchant of asphodel for life drain. Otherwise it's just a standard Exsanguinate. Voltron wins are quite rare unless its to finish off a straggler or something.
As for the equipment, I'm still thinking on whether I should cut Darksteel Plate and Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho. Unlike the other equipment that fit the Toshiro curve well by coming out turn 2 and/or being equipped by turn 4, these 2 come in at turn 3, which is usually when I want to cast Toshiro instead.
I've only gotten Spoils of Blood twice since i put in into the deck (c14). Early impressions are that the card isn't high impact, as 2 4/4s or even 6/6s arent going to do whole lot in the grand scheme of things. The card is also going to draw hate if played after a board wipe, although that is usually already the case since I currently spend toshiro triggers on reanimations after wraths. I'd like to play a game where i can see it's potential with 10/10-20/20 horrors resulting from a board wipe before i decide if it gets a permanent spot. For now i'll just say that it's a pretty good value play in terms of generic creatures.
In 1v1's, I don't usually feel myself thinking that i could use a board wipe. Most of the time, the opponents' board would be cleared. and i'd be thinking of how to get my forbidden orchard into play so that i can give them more tokens to kill. This isnt true for decks that run token generators like Bitterblossom or Genesis chamber in a Norin deck. In those matchups, having a random board wipe could prove useful, but wouldnt solve the underlying issue which is that we need to get rid of those problem enchantments or artifacts. In terms of wipe potential, i already run Tsabo's Decree and Oblivion Stone. Nevinryall's Disk could be a future addition as well. I don't think I would play something like Damnation since it only hits creatures and cannot be flashed back.
In multiplayer games, I usually let my opponents' fight it out and wrath one another, since i usually have only 1-2 creatures on the field at any time. I do not try to clear the board in multiplayer games, and rather just use them at creatures swinging in my direction.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
No clue atm. It was a recent addition and have not come up in any games yet. The reasoning I had for adding it in was because I felt it might work well in conjunction with the other reanimates in the deck. For example, it gets around the restrictions of Wake the Dead and Corpse Dance or even Shallow Grave once i find a spot for that to allow us to keep the creatures we want past the turn. Not sure if the card will live up to expectations. For now it simply serves as an additional recursion card, on a stick.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Seems reasonable.
I haven't had much luck with Hatred over the years, even in more aggressive decklists. I found that in a lot of circumstances it had maybe a 50% chance of killing a player, with, say, a 75% chance that I would die myself within the next turn or so. (Numbers are in no sense exact, but you should get the idea.)
In 1v1's, I wait for my opponent to tap out, casting that creature or something. EoT, i destroy that creature(s) to create an open board. On my turn Hatred for the kill since he can't stop me.
In multiplayer, it's often used when at least 1 other player has been knocked out of the game. The most recent game where I used it in multiplayer was against Blind Seer, Mayael the Anima and Norin the Wary. Blind Seer got hated out of the game first for being a douche and playing Back to Basics and Invoke Prejudice. Toshiro had an Overseer of the Damned and Toshiro Umezawa on the board. Norin had a bunch of tokens, and Mayael had 1 fatty. Toshiro played Gray Merchant of Asphodel, then at end of opponent's turn, sacced it to Phyrexian tower, and recurred it with something. This brought the opponents' lives down to reasonable levels while bumping up Toshiro. Then Toshiro starts his turn, declares attack with Toshiro at Mayael and Overseer at Norin. Casts hatred on Toshiro for enough to kill with commander dmg, casts removal to clear the blocker and flashes back hatred on the overseer which couldn't be blocked because of flying.
The idea is to not cast hatred just because you have it in hand, but to play as per normal until an opportunity presents itself.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Yeah, I guess that feels a bit iffy for me for a five-mana card role. It seems like it might be dead a little too often. Though my playstyle for mono-black control is a bit more aggressive, I would imagine.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Yeah, about what I figured.
I like the land base here, especially that Forbidden Orchard tech... I think Vesuva/Thespian Stage might be a little overreaching on the Coffers/Shrine package, but it's not completely unreasonable given that you also have the other options. I don't know how much of a token theme there is in your meta, but I found Sudden Death and Nameless Inversion to both be more useful than Bile Blight when tokens aren't as much of a consideration.
Vesuva and Thespian's stage is there not only for the coffers and shrine, but also for things like thawing glaciers/deserted temple on the mana front but also phyrexian tower and high market for additional sac outlets. I'm considering a spot for that land that is a sac engine but dosen't tap for mana as well. Usually it's because the limiting factor to my reaniamation chains is how many times i can kill my own creature in a turn. I've even used removal against myself in times of need.
Bile Blight is there as a pseudo wipe against tokens. I didnt need the -x/-x in all honesty as dismember and tragic slip cover that front quite well and I actually prefer removal like diabolic edict in most cases.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Figured. It's almost like we've both played a decent amount of mono-black control.
I don't know if it's in your budget/interest, but have you considered Word of Command?
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
It's interesting to think about playing this in 1v1 as well. Though I'd expect that you might be low-curve sculpting a bit more in that case.
When playing it against a deck with heavy instants it generally makes them panic cast spells. That can be useful as it can mean someone tapping out to keep you off of casting their spells. There generally tend to be players with less instants in the game so considering what your opponent's deck looks like can be useful as well. Remember that you dont have to abide to when spells can normally be cast when you cast it so during someone's draw step you can hit them with this and force them to cast a sorcery (IE a wrath) if you want.
I generally consider it a card where you want to be able to read your opponents with. The better feel you have for how they play, their deck makeup, and what they would not be willing to cast at a given time the better it is going to work for you.
Also, you can get beat up white bordered copies in the low $30 range which isn't so bad. Thats how I ended up going with it.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Wait, what? Really? Hm. I've looked over the rulings a couple times, and didn't get that from them. I guess since the player plays the card as part of the resolution of Word of Command, that would make sense, though.
Useful link to rules discussion
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/570619-word-of-command
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
@Silenciaco: How often do you end up actually getting Black Market to work?
Interesting, i did not know that WoC could bypass the card timing restrictions. Honestly, that would probably make a pretty big difference to my earlier assessment. Being able to force an instant speed wrath or even help opponent A cast a creature in response to getting attacked by opponent B to earn political points may just be worth the occasional whiffs. I guess i'll put this back under consideration and look for a spot to retest it after i find one for Shallow Grave.
Black Market is a card that i've been wanting to play with ever since i started EDH but just could not find a proper home for before Toshiro. It feels alot better if I manage to play it early with a Sol Ring or Dark/Cabal Ritual. Otherwise, tapping out on turn 5 usually dosen't seem the right move to play it, and i'd likely wait till I have 7+ mana before I do. That is unless I have one of those 0 mana removals in hand. In a single player game, it usually takes awhile to start churning out decent amounts of mana. In multiplayer i usually get between 1-3 mana on my next turn, and things start getting crazy after a wrath. When it does go active, it usually fuels one of my win-cons like chain-reanimating or spell slinging with Sphinx-Bone Wand or a simple exsanguinate. So far, it hasn't been blown up by targeted removal, so i guess my opponents' don't consider it a threat. i feel like the effect is powerful, considering it's drawback back when it was printed was mana burn, which no longer exists. In conclusion, it's a personal pet choice for me, and I feel that it enables my explosive playstyle pretty well, although the mana cost is of slight concern.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
Lucky. Yeah, for me it always ate nigh-immediate removal.
- Darksteel Plate + Diamond Valley
- Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho + Shallow Grave
As i mentioned previously, Darksteel Plate and Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho competed with Toshiro on the mana curve at 3 mana, and i usually want to cast Toshiro instead. Darksteel Plate is a good card an all, but Toshiro's effect triggers through wraths and such, and his initial mana cost is low enough to cast several times a game, so it feels somewhat unnecessary to use. The same reasoning could be said for Oathkeeper which is conditional recursion specific to toshiro, with a drawback.
I added in Diamond Valley and Shallow Grave instead in those spots. Diamond Valley serves as an additional sac outlet and lifegain mechanic, both of which this deck could use more of. Diamond Valley, dosen't tap for mana, so i didn't put it in a "mana producer" slot. However, it would infact produce mana with Urborg, so i guess the effective land count does go up by some arbitrary amount. Shallow Grave is an additional source of recursion takes the place of Oathkeeper. It's very well costed at 2, but requires a sac engine in play to send the target back into the yard. All the other instant speed reanimation spells don';t quite synergise all that well in the deck due to the high mana cost or being something like Underworld Dreams. So at this point i'm not sure if i'll be testing those out in the future.
Shortlist for cutting:
Exsanguinate
Isochron Scepter
Jet Medallion
These 3 cards are on the shortlist for removal, because i'm not too happy with them in some way or another.
Exsanguinate is ridiculously good, but i feel like it is the deck simply because it is a "goodstuff" type of card in mono black. If possible, i'd like to move away from that once i find a suitable replacement to take it's place.
Isochron Scepter is also excellent, but feels "unfun" to be on the receiving end of, which I would like to remove whenever possible.
Jet Medallion didn't work out too well for me in a recent game, when i needed to play some big mana cards like Sphinx-Bone Wand. Add to that the fact that many of my instants cost B or BB, reducing the effectiveness of the Medallion. I'll give it a bit more time, but if i find it failing me a few more times, i'm going to remove it.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W