well, i have kaerveks spite, last laugh, Gray Merchant of Asphodel and torment of hailfire as finishers. never managed to get last laugh to work, but the others have been good (disclaimer: kaerveks spite is not 'good', but it's definitely a nice feeling managing to combat step get my opponent down to 5 or less, then mana source into a kill. i get its not good, but its an awesome feeling).
I'm not 100% sold on the monetary cost on doom whisperer. if i find one, sure. but i don't feel like dishing out that sort of money on it. mausoleum secrets maybe? and there's a goblin cratermaker that possibly can be good? i generally can't think of many colourless non-land permanent that really needs killing though, when i can just kill the player instead.
I can imagine Torment of Hailfire being a good finisher. Ritual/Bubbling Muck into Rain of Filth or even Burnt Offering then Torment seems soooo cruel and fast at the same time.
I have been thinking about Final Parting from DOM. I know it's 5cmc, but has a chance to be quite powerful in the deck. Search for two cards, one to hand one to grave.
Possible options:
* Mizzix's Mastery to hand, Repay in Kind to GY. We're low on life most of the time.
* Master of Cruelties to GY, Shallow Grave to hand. Or any other creature (Kuro, Hellcarver, Anger) and reanimation.
* Havoc Festival to hand + Archfiend of Despair to GY. Next turn play Festival and possibly Reanimate Archfiend?
it'd probably not work in my build though; i usually end up exiling more than 2/3rds of my library every game, and having to memorise doomsday piles and final parting 2-card combos given the current board state is a tad too much for my little brain!
now that i think about it, it might be too slow/mana intensive for the deck. when playing my build, i'm ALWAYS short of mana i need/want. 5 mana to set up the next turn is good, but potentially ringing off warning signals to the other players to exile my Gy or something.
...and this is coming from a guy who'd treasonous ogre himself over 27 life at a time just to add RRRRRRRRR without really hesitating.
I get your point, all ot them, totally.
Just looking for some options to make the deck more stable for crazy kill all players wins. I love how the deck functions and dont want to change that at all. I also play the riskiest route I can, just because its funkcje and its rewarding... Sometimes.
Coming back to the point I feel like Doom Whisperer may be MVP of the deck. Being able to put as many cards to our GY as our life total allows is bonkers, then reanimate everything with Living Death or just one key creature with reanimation sitting in our hand is too good to be omitted. The price tho. Gotta get a proxy for now.
Recently, I played a 4 player FFA and managed to play Master of Cruelties turn two. I attacked all the opponents so they all had 1 life. One of them tried to remove Master with Chaos Warp but it was Master that was the permanent after shuffling, LOL! Idid not have a card in my deck that could finish 3 opponents at once, sadly.
EDIT: I also tested Doom Whisperer and Final Parting. The former was fantastic, the latter was not that bad at all. I could produce 6 mana on turn 3 with Mass Hysteria in play, played Final Parting and searched for Reanimate and Hellcarver Demon, demon connected but found only Final Fortune and a bunh of lands. Next turn Hellcarver connected again and found 5 fatties. EOT I died ofc, LOL. Ehh, that Rakdos luck
Damn, I forgot about adding Treasonous Ogre gotta include him ASAP.
What kind of combos do you usually do during 4 player FFA games? How do you usually (most often) kill the table, players, etc?
Played around 10 games yesterday. Both 4 player FFA and 1v1 cmdr (not duel commander). I must say I felt the real power of the deck. Turn 2 hasty Rakdos the Defiler turned out to be an insta-win. Also affected by "summoning sickness" turn two Hellcarver Demon or It That Betrays got the job done.
Hellcarver missed sometimes, and sometimes opponents had an answer for my Doomsday pile. Happens. But had a great time spoiling everyone's day. Haha!
Observations:
* Final Parting turned out to be a good card in the deck so far.
* Archfiend of Despair is a lightning rod for removal on the decent demon count boardstate, and 90% of time has been removed when comboed with Havoc Festival, sadly. The combo never worked. I'm thinking about swapping the demon for Wound Reflection as a pile for Doomsday. THOUGHTS?
* Every hand without Sol Ring, Mana Crypt or any ritual is mediocre or worse. HOW DO YOU GUYS FEEL ABOUT IT?
* I could feel the lack of mass/spot removal. Using Living Death to remove opponents' wide board is not always a good option. Thinking of adding Damnation or Toxic Deluge.
wow.. i wish i had time to splurge out 10 games just like that!
I feel like archfiend of despair is doing its job if it's absorbing removal. I'm a bit of a live and let live kinda dude, and suicide BR in my mind isn't too concerned about losing one wincon; ill just throw up another. Bear in mind, wound reflection can't be reanimated. sure its harder to kill, but being able to cheat it into play is my sorta schtick.
also, with the removal, i completely get it. That being said, i like to think that i'm playing the pressure game. the table needs to answer my questions i put to the board or add to the stack. if they can't, they lose. if i lose tempo/pressure, then i'm that much more likely to lose anyways. personally i've made it a thing to not add answers (unless they're answers to the players themselves).
take my opinions with a massive dose of salt though; your build and play style is probably very different from mine, so it is what it is. i'm very tempted to find a final parting to see how that turns out. thanks for pointing that one out (I'm extremely for adding less-used uncommon and commons to any of my decks!)
As it comes to removal, I admit that I also like to put pressure on opponents so they either remove my wincons or just die. Some games turned to 3v1 as soon as turn 3, because they could not catch up the tempo. On the other hand some games are just imposible to win without a mass removal. Marchesa's pillowfort with Ensnaring Bridge may be unbeatible, except we set up Doomsday or Festival combo. On the other hand adding more removal and more other cards will destroy the stability in the deck. IDK.
I have just been thinking about Decree of Annihilation mainly as a Doomsday or Insidious Dreams pile piece first to cast. It does not destroy enchantments, so Fervor, Mass Hysteria or any other would be safe. Then I could use the pile like this:
1. Decree of Annihilation
2.Havoc Festival
3.Archfiend of Despair or Wound Reflection
4 and 5 should not be necessary.
Decree of Annihilation could also play a role of uncounterable land destruction if our boardstate was enough to win the game.
my favourite doomsday piles almost always include sire of insanity; a beater AND keeps me ahead. adding a decree of annihilation as an uncounterable land-wipe is definitely good; unfortunately, there is a bit of a murmur in my meta against MLD. even if it's used as a game-ending spell. I've been relegated to things like ruination. I'm also quite lucky in that no one else in the meta has an ensnaring bridge or any other massive pains for rakdos.
I think you're definitely onto something.
Wait. actually, the biggest pain the rakdos recently was an infinitely recurring spore frog. it made for an impressive amount of digging on my part for an 'answer' though (it that betrays).
Yeee.. Sire of Insanity is probably the most hated card from the deck by my friends. One time I played it turn one when I was starting the game. Blood Crypt> Dark Ritual> Entomb> Reanimation. Should have seen their faces.
In my playgroup there's actually everything allowed. I usually play MLD Daretti which is so OP! Also built Tymna/Thrasios hatebears. Used to have Yidris storm but no one wanted to play against it LOL. My friends play few k$ worth Oloro control, some Jund Ponza, Gitrog Combo, Maelstrom Wanderer aggro/combo, Gitrog LD, Child of Alara (with Land Destruction also), Edric turns, Prossh combo, Azami, Brago control, etc etc.
That's why I think by different cathegories, I reckon. All their decks are also a reason why I had to take a break playing the Defiler. They just played 3v1 against me (like they almost always do when I play Daretti). Now I'm struggling to make Defiler even better to kick their butts again.
Did you post your decklist somewhere here or have I missed that?
Well. Gotta test Decree of Annihilation or any other mass removal. And ofc try to figure out some other almost-insta-wincons.
yea, so it's not really like your build, but for now, i think it is as it is. feel free to berate the list at your leisure.
whenever i find a card i wanna add in, i never feel like there's anything i could easily cut though. there are certainly some bad cards in here, but i want to make them work (kaervek's spite comes to mind).
So.. I added Decree of Annihilation and it is super nice. Not only it secures the combo (Archfiend of Despair+Havoc Festival), but also it is nice to see opponents ramping like crazy, then loosing all lands on turn 5 let's say. So far - so good. Gonna test it a lil bit more, tho.
Recent CUTS:
* Archfiend of Depravity - too expensive for a "maybe" card draw, most of the time it was just 5CMC 5/3 flier (it works super nice in Lord of Riots though)
* Overseer of the Damned - most of the time brought nothing to the table. I'll swap it for Phyrexian Delver, I reckon.
* Thinking of cutting Phyrexian Obliterator. It was just a 5/5 for 4 black mana. Hard to cast sometimes, can't be cast with Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.
* Also how do you feel about Abhorrent Overlord. I cut the card already, but I can see you have it on your list. I do not think I have ever reanimated him, always had some better targets. Moreover, I never cared of having a few 1/1 fliers. Too low impact on board, imo, I usually have one key creature on board.
i've had good use of abhorrent overlord. i named one of my doomsday piles abhorrentsuperstrike (combos with say hellcarver demon) but mostly, it's used as protection against non-targeted sac effects (fleshbag marauder et al), and works REALLY well with breath of fury. i've always made a mental note to use the sac trigger to reuse etb effects like malfegor in combination with reanimation effects. It's been ok to good, but when it's good, it wins the game. your results may vary though.
phyrexian delver has been a near-all star for me. it usually ends up giving me a double-reanimate effect (so an extra 3 power on the board), and gives me 2 devotion for abhorrent overlord. having a lower CMC than 6 also helps. as long as its in the grave, i'd almost always reanimate that first, then another thing with it.
stunning reversal hasn't been relevant yet; i played 3 or 4 games in person recently, drew it once, but was never in danger of losing the game. I suspect it's just cute; if i'd lose the game, it's almost always because i drew too much and exiled most my library. drawing an extra 7 doesn't help there. I suppose it's possible to float treasonous ogre-mana into 0 life and have stunning reversal to draw tonnes and cast tonnes of stuff? again, it's cute, but i'm gonna test it more.
skeletal scrying is good, but a tad mana intensive. the exile from the grave is usually not too relevant; it's an instant, and i've (only ever, once) used it in response to a grave-exiling effect. More often than not, it's a 6 mana draw 5, and occasionally shallow grave selection (yes, top of the grave is actually relevant sometimes).
moonlight bargain allows me to select which cards to chuck into the grave, and what goes into my hand. makes it possible to draw reanimate, chuck malfegor, wipe the board. that being said, i should probably give promise of power another look in. 5 mana draw 5 seems good. i doubt i'd ever use the demon making half.
plunge into darkness was what replaced promise of power for me. it was a cheaper 'draw spell' that has the SLIGHT advantage of giving me life as a response to a board wipe. i've never used it with repay in kind though; seems cheaper and has more upside than lich.
and regarding mana crypt, i don't have the money for it!
and regarding your cuts, i think they seem like good ideas, with the possible exception of archfiend of depravity. has it really been so ineffective? and what are you planning to put into the deck? at one point, my deck had too many non-creature cards, and it made all the reanimation effects really weak, and even the rakdos trigger unnecessarily painful. i think something between 18-24 demons is a good number. I've recently contemplated adding in heartless hidetsugu back in, just 'cuz of the pain, and how it can really make a game get out of hand, quick.
do you have a decklist of what you run right now? i'd imagine you've some interesting gems that i've missed.
I have some ideas but need some time to think about it, so the deck won't change the "style" too much.
Oh, almost forgot! I used the card in my Rakdos, Lord of Riots EDH, and it was super-cool. Strands of Night - instant speed reanimation on an enchantment. Believe me, it is worth at least testing out. U gonna like it
To be honest, i myself run razaketh, the foulblooded, but i don't think i've ever been impressed with it. it always seems so deflating after all the effort of getting it into play. 8 power is ok, but that tutoring ability is a bit limited; having to sac another guy means i gotta have 2 guys in play, and that isn't necessarily common when i play. and even then, my guys are generally of a good quality that i wouldn't wanna do it anyways.
sower of discord seems like it can be very good. especially if you can somehow flashit in in response to a massive attack or some other big hit.
puppeteer clique is something I've never seen before. could be good, and definitely will cause some chaos. it scales well to the opposing decks too, which is nice.
i had considered strands of night actually, but it's always seemed so slow and obvious (as in my opponent could turn their incidental grave hate into a sinkhole). i try to limit the number of 3+ mana do nothings in my deck, just 'cuz it just doesn't seem to be something rakdos would do. Maybe ill chuck it in at some point for a test to see how it works. I suspect i also need to add more creatures to the deck and remove the 'sac all your stuff' effects to make it more playable in my build.
just curious. with your build, what's normally on the board at the end of a typical game? it seems to me that yours plays a lot more consistently, and has a good level of buildup before the mid-end game, and i suspect you generally have a relatively large board presence?
That's actually the same way I was thinking about Razaketh, the Foulblooded. Just mentioned it as an option, as a good Demon.
For me, Sower of Discord is the best option from above mentioned. Great lightning rod for removal, brings in nice politic aspect, and a bit of pressure.
As it comes to my boardstate, I must admit that you are very wrong ;). Most of the time I play the most risky way possible, loosing a ton of life, tutoring for and playing my best threats ( Hellcarver Demon, Master of Cruelties, taking care they etb with haste of course) either ASAP or in the right moment(opponents tapped out after ramping and playing artifacts). Many, many times (at least 50-60%) I either "win" on turn 2-4 by just PLAYING Master of Cruelties or hasty Rakdos the Defiler with help of tituals like Bubbling Muck or my favorite- Rain of Filth. One of my best openings was T1 Blood Crypt and Mass Hysteria, T2 Mana Crypt Graven Cairns and Dark Ritual into Rakdos. GG
Also, very often I play just "for fun" on xmage, then peoples' rage-quitting games is very frequent. "For fun" I mean attacking with Hellcarver without Doomsday or Dreams, reanimating Kuro, Pitlord just to clear the table for ~20-30 life, etc.
Remember- reanimating Kuro turn 2 or any turn, clearing the table, then sacrificing it with Burnt Offering and play, say, Hellcarver and Doomsday is always welcome there's hundreds of possibilities.
I'm trying to play craziest way possible, rickiest I can. Of course sometimes I miscalculate mana and die miserably , sometimes Hellcarver is not connecting, but the deck has such a huge possibilities of comboing off or winning on the spot that I do not care of loosing anything. For sure it is letting tons of opponents' blood . Mostly the game ends when I have only one creature on battlefield, maybe a creature and two, three lands, and either die miserably, or win on the spot on turn 3 or 4 (turn 2 wins also happens, when ppl see Rakdos, then they just scoop it up, especially 1v1 commander games)
Heh.. that, to me is a lot of stuff on the board! There was one game where I managed to shallow grave an it that betrays in response to my rakdos trigger, but each other win basically came around with no lands, 1 or 2 guys in play, and a final fortune game loss delayed trigger lingering.
I just assumed so because I’ve fewer permanents in my build. But it’s nice to know that it’s pretty explosive as is! Gonna have to keep working on it.
I've been thinking about building this list, though I'm thinking of replacing the old Rakdos with the new Rakdos as commander. Seems appropriate and slightly more reliable to get us a lot of value.
I've been thinking about building this list, though I'm thinking of replacing the old Rakdos with the new Rakdos as commander. Seems appropriate and slightly more reliable to get us a lot of value.
The new rakdos seems quite tame to me though. It gives each other creature a 50/50 chance to not die, and it’s only a destroy effect, not a sacrifice.
I agree. I'll stay with the Defiler, but the Showstopper looks very nice as a mass removal, especially that we can reanimate him.
Ive decided to reconstruct my Lord of Riots edh also, and the new Rakdos is going to be a good addition to this deck as well. A 6/6 flying trampler is mediocre, but the board impact may be enormous... Even if it is 1 for 3 or 4, we still "win". Random effects bring a lot of fun
What are your thoughts on the new Ravnica Allegiance cards: Captive Audience - we have the capability to power this out turns 2/3, at which point it is unlikely the opponent can answer it quickly. Spawn of Mayhem - this seems better than some of the other demons that are only beatsticks, as this can come down for 3 mana and does 7 damage per turn (in 4 player multiplayer). It's also a strong enabler for spectacle / Rakdos, Lord of Riots. Rix Maadi Reveler - it can function as a cheap discard outlet on turn 2 to enable early reanimation or refill your hand later on. It seems solid in this type of deck. Bedevil - As instant speed versatile removal goes this is the best Rakdos has access too, and the mana cost should be no issue given the heavy leaning towards black in the manabase.
Otherwise I'm wondering if you've considered/tried the other fast mana options out: Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond. In my experience, all of these have been quite good. Depending on your meta, Treasure Nabber could also generate a lot of mana.
I sorta like captive audience, though I don’t think it’s very good for what I want my build to be.
Spawn of mayhem on the other hand seems quite good. Unfortunately, I don’t use baby rakdos, and I don’t really have space for a plain beater even if it’s highly effective (the only real plain beater I run anymore is master of cruelties, and it hits pretty hard.
The Reveler I see as a small-rummage, or at best a 4mana draw 3, on a tiny stick. I already have multiple 3 manadraw 4s, so I’m not sure if it’s going to be that great.
My rakdos is all about pushing my game plan forwards, and less about disrupting my opponents. The only removal I have is for players and/or stuck to big beat sticks (rakdos the defiler, malfegor).
Some of the fast mana you’ve described is already in my build. Not moxen though, since I don’t have any. Also, treasure nabber is awesome (he stole a sol ring!), but it looks a bit out of place in my demon-filled deck. The goblins more mischievous, whereas my decks more plain evil.
I’d implore you to give these cards a run yourself though. I’m happy to be proven wrong (though my wallet will hate me for it), and look forwards to hearing how the cards do!
Edit: i did grab copies of: theater of horrors - 3 mana for a draw 1 extra card per turn (that doesn't "draw") with the ability to ping PWs seems good. Also, its useful to note, exiled cards from previous turns can still be played in other turns. and it says PLAY (so you can play lands AND cast spells AND use them for abilities). macabre mockery - a 4 mana instant reanimating an opponent's beatstick with a +2 power seems good. Especially abusable since it's an instant speed trick (in response to a merciless executioner-like effect, finding a terastodon to nuke ensnaring bridge and the like, or even just as a response to my own rakdos the defiler sacrifice trigger to get an even number of permanents).
EDH, on the other hand, is more like a monster truck rally. It's more about the spectacle than the race, the games go long, and it's not usually clear who's in the lead until there's only one truck left.*
Single player EDH is like two guys smacking each other with pillows... until one of them pulls out a shotgun.
Which combo are you referring to? If i have IGG in my doomsday pile, it's used to cast multiple 'extra attack step' cards, or card draw or mana. I'm not sure if any of my doomsday piles would need IGG actually. it's been a while since i've played the deck.
quick update:
took out macabre mockery - niche-usefulness/utility isn't what this deck wants. can't remember what i put in. Theater of horrors has been pretty good. It just sort of sits there, and is generally left alone. The card advantage it gains has been pretty real too.
i tested light up the stage[/card] - useless. at its best, it's a 1-mana divination. at worst, it's a miniaturised-three wishes, but the card stays in exile, which means i can't even use it as a reanimation thing. yikes. also, the net gain of +1 card isn't worth the loss of potential tempo loss. If i can rig exactly what's on top of the deck though, maybe it might be worth it. but it's pretty bad.
I love this thread. It's so cool, that is still alive!
I tried to build a similar list and had a lot of 1v1 games and three multiplayer (4 player FFA) games so far. In 1v1 the deck is absolutely dominating. When Rakdos comes he usually has haste and connects and then it's game over. In multiplayer it was a different story so far. In one of the mp games I played an early doomsday (because I had it in hand, and you know, Rakdosstyle...) but could not use the 5 cards in the same turn, which lead to two players teaming up and killing me. After this I thought, "OK, maybe less risky more brainy?" and tried not to give them so much incentive to beat me (they still hated on me in the other games since they fear Rakdos). In the other two games I faced the problem of not having a realiable mana base. Cards like bubbling muck and rain of filth enable awesome plays, but only in one turn. That means if you don't have an awesome play at hand, you just have less mana than the rest of the table most of the time, and a less threatening board state (I had mostly one demon out whilst the other build their many threats standard stuff). That just lead to them beating me most often, because I was the easiest target and have a scary commander that could ruin their day.
Do you guys face similar troubles? And if so, how to compensate for this? So far I'm reluctant to add defensive cards(like Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs), because this would water down the Rakdos feeling.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm not 100% sold on the monetary cost on doom whisperer. if i find one, sure. but i don't feel like dishing out that sort of money on it. mausoleum secrets maybe? and there's a goblin cratermaker that possibly can be good? i generally can't think of many colourless non-land permanent that really needs killing though, when i can just kill the player instead.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I have been thinking about Final Parting from DOM. I know it's 5cmc, but has a chance to be quite powerful in the deck. Search for two cards, one to hand one to grave.
Possible options:
* Mizzix's Mastery to hand, Repay in Kind to GY. We're low on life most of the time.
* Master of Cruelties to GY, Shallow Grave to hand. Or any other creature (Kuro, Hellcarver, Anger) and reanimation.
* Havoc Festival to hand + Archfiend of Despair to GY. Next turn play Festival and possibly Reanimate Archfiend?
There's plenty of OP options, I reckon.
it'd probably not work in my build though; i usually end up exiling more than 2/3rds of my library every game, and having to memorise doomsday piles and final parting 2-card combos given the current board state is a tad too much for my little brain!
Other neat interactions include anger in gy, fury of the horde in hand with abhorrent overlord[/card] in gy to reanimate then swing multiple combat phases.
now that i think about it, it might be too slow/mana intensive for the deck. when playing my build, i'm ALWAYS short of mana i need/want. 5 mana to set up the next turn is good, but potentially ringing off warning signals to the other players to exile my Gy or something.
...and this is coming from a guy who'd treasonous ogre himself over 27 life at a time just to add RRRRRRRRR without really hesitating.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Just looking for some options to make the deck more stable for crazy kill all players wins. I love how the deck functions and dont want to change that at all. I also play the riskiest route I can, just because its funkcje and its rewarding... Sometimes.
Coming back to the point I feel like Doom Whisperer may be MVP of the deck. Being able to put as many cards to our GY as our life total allows is bonkers, then reanimate everything with Living Death or just one key creature with reanimation sitting in our hand is too good to be omitted. The price tho. Gotta get a proxy for now.
Recently, I played a 4 player FFA and managed to play Master of Cruelties turn two. I attacked all the opponents so they all had 1 life. One of them tried to remove Master with Chaos Warp but it was Master that was the permanent after shuffling, LOL! Idid not have a card in my deck that could finish 3 opponents at once, sadly.
EDIT: I also tested Doom Whisperer and Final Parting. The former was fantastic, the latter was not that bad at all. I could produce 6 mana on turn 3 with Mass Hysteria in play, played Final Parting and searched for Reanimate and Hellcarver Demon, demon connected but found only Final Fortune and a bunh of lands. Next turn Hellcarver connected again and found 5 fatties. EOT I died ofc, LOL. Ehh, that Rakdos luck
Damn, I forgot about adding Treasonous Ogre gotta include him ASAP.
What kind of combos do you usually do during 4 player FFA games? How do you usually (most often) kill the table, players, etc?
Oh right i've managed pox/rakdos the defiler with it that betrays which yielded a concession, i think. I've added fraying omnipotence to the deck, but i question its effectivity, really. have yet to use it though.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Hellcarver missed sometimes, and sometimes opponents had an answer for my Doomsday pile. Happens. But had a great time spoiling everyone's day. Haha!
Observations:
* Final Parting turned out to be a good card in the deck so far.
* Archfiend of Despair is a lightning rod for removal on the decent demon count boardstate, and 90% of time has been removed when comboed with Havoc Festival, sadly. The combo never worked. I'm thinking about swapping the demon for Wound Reflection as a pile for Doomsday. THOUGHTS?
* Every hand without Sol Ring, Mana Crypt or any ritual is mediocre or worse. HOW DO YOU GUYS FEEL ABOUT IT?
* I could feel the lack of mass/spot removal. Using Living Death to remove opponents' wide board is not always a good option. Thinking of adding Damnation or Toxic Deluge.
I feel like archfiend of despair is doing its job if it's absorbing removal. I'm a bit of a live and let live kinda dude, and suicide BR in my mind isn't too concerned about losing one wincon; ill just throw up another. Bear in mind, wound reflection can't be reanimated. sure its harder to kill, but being able to cheat it into play is my sorta schtick.
also, with the removal, i completely get it. That being said, i like to think that i'm playing the pressure game. the table needs to answer my questions i put to the board or add to the stack. if they can't, they lose. if i lose tempo/pressure, then i'm that much more likely to lose anyways. personally i've made it a thing to not add answers (unless they're answers to the players themselves).
take my opinions with a massive dose of salt though; your build and play style is probably very different from mine, so it is what it is. i'm very tempted to find a final parting to see how that turns out. thanks for pointing that one out (I'm extremely for adding less-used uncommon and commons to any of my decks!)
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I see your point as it comes to Archfiend of Despair. Maybe adding Wound Reflection as a second Archfiend won't be a bad idea. It works well both with Pox and with Havoc Festival.
As it comes to removal, I admit that I also like to put pressure on opponents so they either remove my wincons or just die. Some games turned to 3v1 as soon as turn 3, because they could not catch up the tempo. On the other hand some games are just imposible to win without a mass removal. Marchesa's pillowfort with Ensnaring Bridge may be unbeatible, except we set up Doomsday or Festival combo. On the other hand adding more removal and more other cards will destroy the stability in the deck. IDK.
I have just been thinking about Decree of Annihilation mainly as a Doomsday or Insidious Dreams pile piece first to cast. It does not destroy enchantments, so Fervor, Mass Hysteria or any other would be safe. Then I could use the pile like this:
1. Decree of Annihilation
2.Havoc Festival
3.Archfiend of Despair or Wound Reflection
4 and 5 should not be necessary.
Decree of Annihilation could also play a role of uncounterable land destruction if our boardstate was enough to win the game.
I think you're definitely onto something.
Wait. actually, the biggest pain the rakdos recently was an infinitely recurring spore frog. it made for an impressive amount of digging on my part for an 'answer' though (it that betrays).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
In my playgroup there's actually everything allowed. I usually play MLD Daretti which is so OP! Also built Tymna/Thrasios hatebears. Used to have Yidris storm but no one wanted to play against it LOL. My friends play few k$ worth Oloro control, some Jund Ponza, Gitrog Combo, Maelstrom Wanderer aggro/combo, Gitrog LD, Child of Alara (with Land Destruction also), Edric turns, Prossh combo, Azami, Brago control, etc etc.
That's why I think by different cathegories, I reckon. All their decks are also a reason why I had to take a break playing the Defiler. They just played 3v1 against me (like they almost always do when I play Daretti). Now I'm struggling to make Defiler even better to kick their butts again.
Did you post your decklist somewhere here or have I missed that?
Well. Gotta test Decree of Annihilation or any other mass removal. And ofc try to figure out some other almost-insta-wincons.
1 Rakdos the Defiler
Creature
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Anger
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Mindslicer
1 Hellcarver Demon
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Rakdos, Lord of Riots
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Malfegor
1 Demonlord Belzenlok
1 Archfiend of Despair
1 Lord of the Void
1 Razaketh, the Foulblooded
1 It That Betrays
Enchantment
1 Lich
1 Mass Hysteria
1 Fervor
1 Havoc Festival
Land
1 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
16 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Tainted Peak
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mana Confluence
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Foreboding Ruins
1 Graven Cairns
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Mox Diamond
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Mana Vault
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Sol Ring
Instant
1 Dark Ritual
1 Sacrifice
1 Burnt Offering
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Shallow Grave
1 Rain of Filth
1 Final Fortune
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Savage Beating
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Moonlight Bargain
1 kaervek's spite
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Stunning Reversal
Sorcery
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Infernal Contract
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Doomsday
1 Bubbling Muck
1 Pain's Reward
1 Repay in Kind
1 World at War
1 Exhume
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Damnable Pact
1 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Faithless Looting
1 Cathartic Reunion
1 Torment of Hailfire
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Living Death
yea, so it's not really like your build, but for now, i think it is as it is. feel free to berate the list at your leisure.
whenever i find a card i wanna add in, i never feel like there's anything i could easily cut though. there are certainly some bad cards in here, but i want to make them work (kaervek's spite comes to mind).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Recent CUTS:
* Archfiend of Depravity - too expensive for a "maybe" card draw, most of the time it was just 5CMC 5/3 flier (it works super nice in Lord of Riots though)
* Overseer of the Damned - most of the time brought nothing to the table. I'll swap it for Phyrexian Delver, I reckon.
* Thinking of cutting Phyrexian Obliterator. It was just a 5/5 for 4 black mana. Hard to cast sometimes, can't be cast with Sol Ring or Mana Crypt.
* Also how do you feel about Abhorrent Overlord. I cut the card already, but I can see you have it on your list. I do not think I have ever reanimated him, always had some better targets. Moreover, I never cared of having a few 1/1 fliers. Too low impact on board, imo, I usually have one key creature on board.
How did the following cards perform for you so far?:
* Stunning Reversal
* Skeletal Scrying- looks cool at the first glance.
* Moonlight Bargain - ain't Promise of Power better?
* Plunge into Darkness - would be nice with Repay in Kind, I reckon. Any other Synergies or just a tutor?
* Why there is no Mana Crypt on the list? Just Curious? For me it is bonkers. It allows Turn 2 Rakdos (even with haste)
i've had good use of abhorrent overlord. i named one of my doomsday piles abhorrent super strike (combos with say hellcarver demon) but mostly, it's used as protection against non-targeted sac effects (fleshbag marauder et al), and works REALLY well with breath of fury. i've always made a mental note to use the sac trigger to reuse etb effects like malfegor in combination with reanimation effects. It's been ok to good, but when it's good, it wins the game. your results may vary though.
phyrexian delver has been a near-all star for me. it usually ends up giving me a double-reanimate effect (so an extra 3 power on the board), and gives me 2 devotion for abhorrent overlord. having a lower CMC than 6 also helps. as long as its in the grave, i'd almost always reanimate that first, then another thing with it.
stunning reversal hasn't been relevant yet; i played 3 or 4 games in person recently, drew it once, but was never in danger of losing the game. I suspect it's just cute; if i'd lose the game, it's almost always because i drew too much and exiled most my library. drawing an extra 7 doesn't help there. I suppose it's possible to float treasonous ogre-mana into 0 life and have stunning reversal to draw tonnes and cast tonnes of stuff? again, it's cute, but i'm gonna test it more.
skeletal scrying is good, but a tad mana intensive. the exile from the grave is usually not too relevant; it's an instant, and i've (only ever, once) used it in response to a grave-exiling effect. More often than not, it's a 6 mana draw 5, and occasionally shallow grave selection (yes, top of the grave is actually relevant sometimes).
moonlight bargain allows me to select which cards to chuck into the grave, and what goes into my hand. makes it possible to draw reanimate, chuck malfegor, wipe the board. that being said, i should probably give promise of power another look in. 5 mana draw 5 seems good. i doubt i'd ever use the demon making half.
plunge into darkness was what replaced promise of power for me. it was a cheaper 'draw spell' that has the SLIGHT advantage of giving me life as a response to a board wipe. i've never used it with repay in kind though; seems cheaper and has more upside than lich.
and regarding mana crypt, i don't have the money for it!
and regarding your cuts, i think they seem like good ideas, with the possible exception of archfiend of depravity. has it really been so ineffective? and what are you planning to put into the deck? at one point, my deck had too many non-creature cards, and it made all the reanimation effects really weak, and even the rakdos trigger unnecessarily painful. i think something between 18-24 demons is a good number. I've recently contemplated adding in heartless hidetsugu back in, just 'cuz of the pain, and how it can really make a game get out of hand, quick.
do you have a decklist of what you run right now? i'd imagine you've some interesting gems that i've missed.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
1 Rakdos the Defiler
LANDS (36):
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Mountain
14 Swamp
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tainted Peak
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flamekin Village
1 Blood Crypt
1 Foreboding Ruins
1 Badlands
1 Graven Cairns
1 Mana Confluence
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Canyon Slough
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Lake of the Dead
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Temple of Malice
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
CREATURES (21):
1 Kuro, Pitlord
1 Rakdos, Lord of Riots
1 Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
1 Kothophed, Soul Hoarder
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Hellcarver Demon
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Desecration Demon
1 It That Betrays
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Anger
1 Demonlord Belzenlok
1 Archfiend of Despair
1 Malfegor
1 Doom Whisperer
1 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Lord of the Void
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Bubbling Muck
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Pain's Reward
1 Exhume
1 Pox
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Demonic Tutor
1 World at War
1 Living Death
1 Reanimate
1 Cathartic Reunion
1 Sign in Blood
1 Final Parting
1 Faithless Looting
1 Repay in Kind
1 Infernal Contract
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Doomsday
INSTANTS (12):
1 Cauldron Dance
1 Sacrifice
1 Burnt Offering
1 Rain of Filth
1 Savage Beating
1 Entomb
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Final Fortune
1 Dark Ritual
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Shallow Grave
1 Fervor
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Havoc Festival
1 Mass Hysteria
ARTIFACTS (5):
1 Sol Ring
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
But as I said, I need to make some changes to the deck. Obliterator will be out. Thinking of adding some other demon. Maybe Demon of Dark Schemes, Harvester of Souls, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Sower of Discord. Massacre Wurm would also be fine, as it has lifegain ability. Have to think about it.
Also, I want to add some reanimation spell (like Torrent of Souls) or creature, the one you mentioned Phyrexian Delver may be fine. Maybe Puppeteer Clique, that can target Reclamation Sage or Eternal Witness, or any other utility card.
I have some ideas but need some time to think about it, so the deck won't change the "style" too much.
Oh, almost forgot! I used the card in my Rakdos, Lord of Riots EDH, and it was super-cool. Strands of Night - instant speed reanimation on an enchantment. Believe me, it is worth at least testing out. U gonna like it
sower of discord seems like it can be very good. especially if you can somehow flash it in in response to a massive attack or some other big hit.
puppeteer clique is something I've never seen before. could be good, and definitely will cause some chaos. it scales well to the opposing decks too, which is nice.
i had considered strands of night actually, but it's always seemed so slow and obvious (as in my opponent could turn their incidental grave hate into a sinkhole). i try to limit the number of 3+ mana do nothings in my deck, just 'cuz it just doesn't seem to be something rakdos would do. Maybe ill chuck it in at some point for a test to see how it works. I suspect i also need to add more creatures to the deck and remove the 'sac all your stuff' effects to make it more playable in my build.
just curious. with your build, what's normally on the board at the end of a typical game? it seems to me that yours plays a lot more consistently, and has a good level of buildup before the mid-end game, and i suspect you generally have a relatively large board presence?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
For me, Sower of Discord is the best option from above mentioned. Great lightning rod for removal, brings in nice politic aspect, and a bit of pressure.
As it comes to my boardstate, I must admit that you are very wrong ;). Most of the time I play the most risky way possible, loosing a ton of life, tutoring for and playing my best threats ( Hellcarver Demon, Master of Cruelties, taking care they etb with haste of course) either ASAP or in the right moment(opponents tapped out after ramping and playing artifacts). Many, many times (at least 50-60%) I either "win" on turn 2-4 by just PLAYING Master of Cruelties or hasty Rakdos the Defiler with help of tituals like Bubbling Muck or my favorite- Rain of Filth. One of my best openings was T1 Blood Crypt and Mass Hysteria, T2 Mana Crypt Graven Cairns and Dark Ritual into Rakdos. GG
Also, very often I play just "for fun" on xmage, then peoples' rage-quitting games is very frequent. "For fun" I mean attacking with Hellcarver without Doomsday or Dreams, reanimating Kuro, Pitlord just to clear the table for ~20-30 life, etc.
Remember- reanimating Kuro turn 2 or any turn, clearing the table, then sacrificing it with Burnt Offering and play, say, Hellcarver and Doomsday is always welcome there's hundreds of possibilities.
I'm trying to play craziest way possible, rickiest I can. Of course sometimes I miscalculate mana and die miserably , sometimes Hellcarver is not connecting, but the deck has such a huge possibilities of comboing off or winning on the spot that I do not care of loosing anything. For sure it is letting tons of opponents' blood . Mostly the game ends when I have only one creature on battlefield, maybe a creature and two, three lands, and either die miserably, or win on the spot on turn 3 or 4 (turn 2 wins also happens, when ppl see Rakdos, then they just scoop it up, especially 1v1 commander games)
I just assumed so because I’ve fewer permanents in my build. But it’s nice to know that it’s pretty explosive as is! Gonna have to keep working on it.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
The new rakdos seems quite tame to me though. It gives each other creature a 50/50 chance to not die, and it’s only a destroy effect, not a sacrifice.
I’m definitely sticking with ol rakdos the defiler simply cuz it combos with double strike, and the carnage is real.
Might try to find space for it in my 99 though. I think I need more removal in the form of scary demons.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Ive decided to reconstruct my Lord of Riots edh also, and the new Rakdos is going to be a good addition to this deck as well. A 6/6 flying trampler is mediocre, but the board impact may be enormous... Even if it is 1 for 3 or 4, we still "win". Random effects bring a lot of fun
Captive Audience - we have the capability to power this out turns 2/3, at which point it is unlikely the opponent can answer it quickly.
Spawn of Mayhem - this seems better than some of the other demons that are only beatsticks, as this can come down for 3 mana and does 7 damage per turn (in 4 player multiplayer). It's also a strong enabler for spectacle / Rakdos, Lord of Riots.
Rix Maadi Reveler - it can function as a cheap discard outlet on turn 2 to enable early reanimation or refill your hand later on. It seems solid in this type of deck.
Bedevil - As instant speed versatile removal goes this is the best Rakdos has access too, and the mana cost should be no issue given the heavy leaning towards black in the manabase.
Otherwise I'm wondering if you've considered/tried the other fast mana options out: Grim Monolith, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond. In my experience, all of these have been quite good. Depending on your meta, Treasure Nabber could also generate a lot of mana.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Spawn of mayhem on the other hand seems quite good. Unfortunately, I don’t use baby rakdos, and I don’t really have space for a plain beater even if it’s highly effective (the only real plain beater I run anymore is master of cruelties, and it hits pretty hard.
The Reveler I see as a small-rummage, or at best a 4mana draw 3, on a tiny stick. I already have multiple 3 mana draw 4s, so I’m not sure if it’s going to be that great.
My rakdos is all about pushing my game plan forwards, and less about disrupting my opponents. The only removal I have is for players and/or stuck to big beat sticks (rakdos the defiler, malfegor).
Some of the fast mana you’ve described is already in my build. Not moxen though, since I don’t have any. Also, treasure nabber is awesome (he stole a sol ring!), but it looks a bit out of place in my demon-filled deck. The goblins more mischievous, whereas my decks more plain evil.
I’d implore you to give these cards a run yourself though. I’m happy to be proven wrong (though my wallet will hate me for it), and look forwards to hearing how the cards do!
Edit: i did grab copies of:
theater of horrors - 3 mana for a draw 1 extra card per turn (that doesn't "draw") with the ability to ping PWs seems good. Also, its useful to note, exiled cards from previous turns can still be played in other turns. and it says PLAY (so you can play lands AND cast spells AND use them for abilities).
macabre mockery - a 4 mana instant reanimating an opponent's beatstick with a +2 power seems good. Especially abusable since it's an instant speed trick (in response to a merciless executioner-like effect, finding a terastodon to nuke ensnaring bridge and the like, or even just as a response to my own rakdos the defiler sacrifice trigger to get an even number of permanents).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Found that Taurean Mauler and Spawn of Mayhem curve really nicely, however, the Doomsday Combo with Ill-Gotten Gains doesn't work due to the exile when you cast Gains.
On building a Celestial Kirin Stax EDH:
Which combo are you referring to? If i have IGG in my doomsday pile, it's used to cast multiple 'extra attack step' cards, or card draw or mana. I'm not sure if any of my doomsday piles would need IGG actually. it's been a while since i've played the deck.
quick update:
took out macabre mockery - niche-usefulness/utility isn't what this deck wants. can't remember what i put in.
Theater of horrors has been pretty good. It just sort of sits there, and is generally left alone. The card advantage it gains has been pretty real too.
i tested light up the stage[/card] - useless. at its best, it's a 1-mana divination. at worst, it's a miniaturised-three wishes, but the card stays in exile, which means i can't even use it as a reanimation thing. yikes. also, the net gain of +1 card isn't worth the loss of potential tempo loss. If i can rig exactly what's on top of the deck though, maybe it might be worth it. but it's pretty bad.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I love this thread. It's so cool, that is still alive!
I tried to build a similar list and had a lot of 1v1 games and three multiplayer (4 player FFA) games so far. In 1v1 the deck is absolutely dominating. When Rakdos comes he usually has haste and connects and then it's game over. In multiplayer it was a different story so far. In one of the mp games I played an early doomsday (because I had it in hand, and you know, Rakdosstyle...) but could not use the 5 cards in the same turn, which lead to two players teaming up and killing me. After this I thought, "OK, maybe less risky more brainy?" and tried not to give them so much incentive to beat me (they still hated on me in the other games since they fear Rakdos). In the other two games I faced the problem of not having a realiable mana base. Cards like bubbling muck and rain of filth enable awesome plays, but only in one turn. That means if you don't have an awesome play at hand, you just have less mana than the rest of the table most of the time, and a less threatening board state (I had mostly one demon out whilst the other build their many threats standard stuff). That just lead to them beating me most often, because I was the easiest target and have a scary commander that could ruin their day.
Do you guys face similar troubles? And if so, how to compensate for this? So far I'm reluctant to add defensive cards(like Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs), because this would water down the Rakdos feeling.