Lili isn't a card I'm considering cutting. At worst, she is a bad vampiric tutor. At best, she makes somebody discard, chooses my next two draws, baits removal, and allows me to pitch a c sphinx to my own reaninate.
I have officially joined the Tasigur crew. I sleeved him up and I absolutely love him. He is so nasty it's not even funny lol
My deck list sucks right now but I'm cutting some stuff and adding some more goodies as I go. Grisly Salvage is an amazing card go see after t1 fetch. T3 commander. Can't wait to beast this deck up religiously.
I tried the deck with infinite mana > doomsday a couple times, and it basically plays like the annoying Bant control decks that would be led by Jenara before people got all weird about Roon and Derevi. I think it might be more powerful, but I can't say for certain right now. It makes the deck far, far less explosive and far more all in, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think that the list was really split when I had infinite mana, doomsday, hermit druid, and control ALL as major gameplans, so it feels way better whenever I remove one, but I'm still unsure which is the best. I like this one better because it allows me to play closer to 90% control (and no more bad cantrips), but I really miss having a single "I win" button in Doomsday. I may just have to re-adopt Tooth and Nail if I decide that this is the best plan, and throw Doomsday into a different deck. Probably something annoying like Grixis.
I'm not going to put infinite mana or anything like that in mine, I just want it to be a good control deck against my opponents. I'm thinking of gearing it for 1v1 with the regular rules, but im having a hard time focusing on how I want to kill them. I like the idea of pretty much running Sultai/Bug control, I just have to get the right creature package in with a lot more counterspells in the deck than what im used to doing, so it will be fun learning how to play a new type of deck that isn't my usual cup of tea.
Instead of doomsday why not play Mirror of Fate? With Tasigur's ability and infinite Mana it's a self recurring infinite doomsday without any loss of life.
Play and sac the mirror, choose up to 7 exiled cards, mirror goes to your graveyard. Play your (not actually) doomsday kill, if it doesnt work/is interrupted use Tasigur to rebuy the mirror and try again, and again and again.
Instead of doomsday why not play Mirror of Fate? With Tasigur's ability and infinite Mana it's a self recurring infinite doomsday without any loss of life.
Play and sac the mirror, choose up to 7 exiled cards, mirror goes to your graveyard. Play your (not actually) doomsday kill, if it doesnt work/is interrupted use Tasigur to rebuy the mirror and try again, and again and again.
Like if you have infinite mana you win anyway? IDK why you want to play these cards
To my knowledge there is no rule in any EDH variant that says that infinite mana wins you the game? You need things to do with that mana.
Commanders get tucked, win conditions get exiled from effects like Bojuka Bog etc. Mirror of Fate is a perfect catch all/insurance policy. It grabs dead eye or palinchron after they've Sword to Plowshares it etc.
So if your commander's tucked and you have infinite mana then Mirror of Fate doesn't win. Here, it's worse than something like Planar Portal to tutor Tas - there are better plan Bs with infinite mana.
If you do have infinite mana, you need to repeatedly use Tas to draw your deck. Now you have infinite mana + your deck, which means infinite recursion, infinite coutnerspells, infinite ways to win. Outside of something with Split Second, which the opponent would have already used at this point to stop you so we can safely assume they don't have something with split second, there is to my knowledge no reasonable way to lose. We already have eighty ways to win with the deck in our hand, the easiest being infinite mill (using Predict over and over), Laboratory Maniac, infinite Time Warps, etc. Mirror of Fate is completely redundant in all of these.
To my knowledge there is no rule in any EDH variant that says that infinite mana wins you the game? You need things to do with that mana.
Commanders get tucked, win conditions get exiled from effects like Bojuka Bog etc. Mirror of Fate is a perfect catch all/insurance policy. It grabs dead eye or palinchron after they've Sword to Plowshares it etc.
DEN/Pal is very hard to get rid of with targeted removal.
If Pal has resolved, you have a window to swords it in response to DEN, assuming they don't have the mana to return Pal to their hand in response.
To my knowledge there is no rule in any EDH variant that says that infinite mana wins you the game? You need things to do with that mana.
Commanders get tucked, win conditions get exiled from effects like Bojuka Bog etc. Mirror of Fate is a perfect catch all/insurance policy. It grabs dead eye or palinchron after they've Sword to Plowshares it etc.
DEN/Pal is very hard to get rid of with targeted removal.
If Pal has resolved, you have a window to swords it in response to DEN, assuming they don't have the mana to return Pal to their hand in response.
Or in response to the initial soulbond trigger, use STP on DEN himself instead. Stops the combo cold.
DEN + friends is powerful but is still very vulnerable to targeted removal. Not to derail the thread but this is one reason why it shouldn't/won't be banned.
In other news, I second the addition of Training Grounds. Being able to use Tasigur's ability at half price is absolutely insane, especially with all the Prophet/Seedborn Muse shenanigans. Worth the one U investment all day.
@Awina, how do you feel about Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger? I have him in my initial list but have yet to draw him. Seems quite good in this kind of control shell with the aforementioned untap creatures, plus you run a few reanimation spells so I figure there is some upside there.
The situation where Tas is tucked and I have infinite mana is hilariously unlikely, but it has come up before. Realistically, its rare that good players will tuck Tas over something like Arcum or Hermit Druid, so I'm not terribly concerned. While Mirror of Fate is a pretty chill card, and a favorite of mine, I think Riftsweeper is probably going to get tested first.
Vorinclex is currently in because I'm testing mana combos. He gets me there really easily, is a very annoying threat, and hugely punishes my opponents (with Prophet, I get 8 turns to their 3, hows that even fair?) He is significantly worse than Crypt Ghast, so the question becomes "Do I want one more way to do the combo, and if not is he better than Deadeye?" I think that its a heavy maybe. Going late, having Deadeye and an EWit is basically unbeatable, but its also not like 'clex is a pushover himself. As for Training Grounds, it has been slotted; lets see how it goes! I'm excited for that one.
I have yet another list. The constant is that killing things and having nearly infinite free counters tends to win games. This goes harder on control, and replaced the Doomsday package with some more card draw (Windfall MVP) and the infinite mana package. Im dealing with a bit of a personal crisis, so I dont have the list till I get back to a computer, but I like how it has played so far.
Ah, BUG has finally entered into my heart again. Thank you Tasigur for existing as a card.
Since my previous post on having a Reanimator theme was glossed over, no offense taken, I wanted to pose the question again and explain why I think it might be a viable strategy.
Tasigur's ability self mills, and it seems that said effect is incidental to the actual desired effect of recurring a specific card in order to control the table. This means, from my prelimnary games and goldfishing, that there are other cards that are being milled that aren't necessarily desirable to be given to you. As an example, say Azami combo is trying to go off, and you have the Trickbind or counterspell in the 'yard that will stop it. Tasigur politics does its thing and you and an opponent agree for you to pick up the Trickbind/counterspell to stop Azami's shenanigans. If I have a Reanimator theme going on, then there is a high possibility for me to mill a fat fatty that I can reanimate with a cheap spell on my turn. I think that by adding a Reanimator theme, you add a dimension of playing creatures from a unique zone that is consistently filled as part of the overall game plan of controlling the table. These creatures are fantastic control cards that might otherwise not make the list because youwould have to tap out a large amount of mana to do so. As an example, Jin-Gitaxias is one of the best control creatures printed that is basically the piece de la resistance of Reanimator decks, EDH or Legacy. The possibility of having sick Reanimator plays that bury a table while still maintaining a good control package seems very easy to integrate. I don't know if that makes sense, but in my head it does, haha. What are your thoughts?
Also, I am curious if Crucible of Worlds has been considered before. I would imagine yes, but I don't recall it being discussed in the thread. If it has been, my bad.
The problem I see with reanimator is that, the reanimation spells are not that cheap. There are few 1 cmc and 2 cmc spells but most are closer to 5 or 6 mana. If you are playing draw-go it's kinda suicidal to tap out on turns 4-6.
I think a reanimator strategy could work quite well but you would have to run more ramp to make sure you can hard cast your fatties consistently if they get sent back to your hand. A situation that I could see happening often is that you activate Tasigur's ability for value and mill one of your fatties. Your opponents would simply give you back your fatty and now you're stuck with a difficult to cast spell and a dead reanimation spell. This might be meta dependent though since if your meta has a lot of combo decks and other must answer situations, it'd be easy to get back immediately useful spells and have the fat remain in the graveyard. That's all hypothetical however and you can get a better idea for it through testing I'm sure.
If you do decide to go with the reanimator strategy while maintaining the draw-go control shell then it's possible to use your reanimation threats as board control as you mentioned with Jin-Gitaxias. All three of the praetors would be quite good for that actually as they all hinder your opponents and provide huge advantage for you. Other big beaters that give immediate advantage could be possible as well such as Rune-Scarred Demon or Sphinx of Uthuun. After that the best reanimation spells would be the cheapest ones so Reanimate, Animate Dead,Necromancy and maybe Stitch Together if you can consistently fill up your graveyard.
That'd be a good start if you want to try reanimator though you might need to add more support than just Tasigur. Forbidden Alchemy is a great card for this and there's plenty others I'm sure.
I agree with you Oogablast. All of the pieces that make a Reanimator deck go fit in very nicely here, in my opinion. Survival is just an awesome card, your reanimation spells can target the creatures that you've either countered or killed, the control cards are just good anyways since you can pick them up so many times. I think your first paragraph is right on as well, and for my particular meta, I think playing the control game and slowing it down actually makes playing the fatties easier to do. As long as you're making consistent land drops, then activating Tasigur for value only increases your threat density; are they gonna give you a control card to stop their future plays or the big fattie that you have mana for because the game has dragged on for so long that will warp the game? The longer the game goes, the better draw-go style is in closing out the game. I think I wil be trying to blend Dies_to_Doom_Blade's Reanimator plan with this Tasigur control list and see how it goes. I'll have some games this weekend to acquire some data on what works and what doesn't.
Is Tainted Pact worth playing as a second Demonic Consultation? As a side note, loving the deck so far, I'm almost strictly a BG player but Tas seems too good to not get something going with. Riftsweeper and maybe even Living Wish seem like good fall back plans to someone metagaming you super hard or to "that guy" that Bogs you way early in the game just because you are playing Tas. Mirror of Fate seems like a card I would like to play as more of a catch all, plus it would force me to play Paradigm Shift as a 2 card Doomsday. Mirror of Fate lets you pick 0 cards if you want, setting up a win with Laboratory Maniac and a draw spell.
So, before I answer any of this stuff, I've been playing the deck without Doomsday. It is significantly better. I'll post a list, like I've been promising, when I have my deck (a friend is currently borrowing it) and also access to a PC at the same time. For now, just know that my responses will be made with a primarily control deck in mind, the wincon being Palinchron combo, beats, or just a soft lock.
Ah, BUG has finally entered into my heart again. Thank you Tasigur for existing as a card.
Since my previous post on having a Reanimator theme was glossed over, no offense taken, I wanted to pose the question again and explain why I think it might be a viable strategy.
Tasigur's ability self mills, and it seems that said effect is incidental to the actual desired effect of recurring a specific card in order to control the table. This means, from my prelimnary games and goldfishing, that there are other cards that are being milled that aren't necessarily desirable to be given to you. As an example, say Azami combo is trying to go off, and you have the Trickbind or counterspell in the 'yard that will stop it. Tasigur politics does its thing and you and an opponent agree for you to pick up the Trickbind/counterspell to stop Azami's shenanigans. If I have a Reanimator theme going on, then there is a high possibility for me to mill a fat fatty that I can reanimate with a cheap spell on my turn. I think that by adding a Reanimator theme, you add a dimension of playing creatures from a unique zone that is consistently filled as part of the overall game plan of controlling the table. These creatures are fantastic control cards that might otherwise not make the list because youwould have to tap out a large amount of mana to do so. As an example, Jin-Gitaxias is one of the best control creatures printed that is basically the piece de la resistance of Reanimator decks, EDH or Legacy. The possibility of having sick Reanimator plays that bury a table while still maintaining a good control package seems very easy to integrate. I don't know if that makes sense, but in my head it does, haha. What are your thoughts?
Also, I am curious if Crucible of Worlds has been considered before. I would imagine yes, but I don't recall it being discussed in the thread. If it has been, my bad.
So, a couple things on the idea of Tasigur as a Reanimator deck. I play against what I consider to be one of the best grave decks in the format (or in most formats, comparitively,) so I have a good idea about how it would go down. First of all, I've sorta already got it going on. I play three reanimate spells (Reanimate, Necromancy, and Dread Return) at the moment, and its usually enough to get me through, but never enough to justify the theme. As far as fatties, I play guys that either win me the game or aren't that great for my opponents; Jin Gitaxias, Vorinclex, Palinchron, Deadeye Navigator, Consecrated Sphinx, and Prophet of Kruphix (sorta), because having an opponent reanimate them is a HUGE threat, and something I always have to play around.
Long way short, I sorta am already. And its currently as far as I'm willing. I dislike going heavier into a reanimator subtheme, because I think it will significantly weaken the instant-speed function of the deck, which is a lot of what makes it powerful.
The problem I see with reanimator is that, the reanimation spells are not that cheap. There are few 1 cmc and 2 cmc spells but most are closer to 5 or 6 mana. If you are playing draw-go it's kinda suicidal to tap out on turns 4-6.
Not exactly; Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, Exhume, and Necromancy are all real cheap. That doesn't change the fact that they significantly hinder the draw-go gameplan by being atrocious things to draw midgame, so you've got that down.
I think a reanimator strategy could work quite well but you would have to run more ramp to make sure you can hard cast your fatties consistently if they get sent back to your hand. A situation that I could see happening often is that you activate Tasigur's ability for value and mill one of your fatties. Your opponents would simply give you back your fatty and now you're stuck with a difficult to cast spell and a dead reanimation spell. This might be meta dependent though since if your meta has a lot of combo decks and other must answer situations, it'd be easy to get back immediately useful spells and have the fat remain in the graveyard. That's all hypothetical however and you can get a better idea for it through testing I'm sure.
If you do decide to go with the reanimator strategy while maintaining the draw-go control shell then it's possible to use your reanimation threats as board control as you mentioned with Jin-Gitaxias. All three of the praetors would be quite good for that actually as they all hinder your opponents and provide huge advantage for you. Other big beaters that give immediate advantage could be possible as well such as Rune-Scarred Demon or Sphinx of Uthuun. After that the best reanimation spells would be the cheapest ones so Reanimate, Animate Dead,Necromancy and maybe Stitch Together if you can consistently fill up your graveyard.
That'd be a good start if you want to try reanimator though you might need to add more support than just Tasigur. Forbidden Alchemy is a great card for this and there's plenty others I'm sure.
Forbidden Alchemy is solid, but ultimately not what I want all the time. I'm often delving away most of my graveyard, so ideally cards I draw either need to be immediately live (and contribute to the gameplan of slow everybody down) or generate massive card advantage somehow. This is why, once you see my new list, I'll be playing Dig Through Time and Underworld Connections (oh my god this card is absurd with Prophet or Muse) instead of Brainstorm and Gitaxian Probe. As far as the Reanimator thing, the bombs are cards that are generally bad when I'm playing the control gameplan, which is my most oft-adopted. The power of recursion is insane, allowing my to blow removal and counterspells early and STILL have access to them.
I agree with you Oogablast. All of the pieces that make a Reanimator deck go fit in very nicely here, in my opinion. Survival is just an awesome card, your reanimation spells can target the creatures that you've either countered or killed, the control cards are just good anyways since you can pick them up so many times. I think your first paragraph is right on as well, and for my particular meta, I think playing the control game and slowing it down actually makes playing the fatties easier to do. As long as you're making consistent land drops, then activating Tasigur for value only increases your threat density; are they gonna give you a control card to stop their future plays or the big fattie that you have mana for because the game has dragged on for so long that will warp the game? The longer the game goes, the better draw-go style is in closing out the game. I think I wil be trying to blend Dies_to_Doom_Blade's Reanimator plan with this Tasigur control list and see how it goes. I'll have some games this weekend to acquire some data on what works and what doesn't.
If you plan to test it, please let me know how it goes! I've personally tested Doomsday, Infinite Mana, and Draw-Go all, and found a deck heavily favoring Draw-Go and mana advantage to be the best thing so far. I would like to try more heavily reanimator (probably add Greater Good, Woodfall Primus, Rune-Scared Demon, Mike, Melira, and Trike as the engine and then Animate Dead, Exhume, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, and one other as my reanimate spells) but its too dangerous in my meta.
Is Tainted Pact worth playing as a second Demonic Consultation? As a side note, loving the deck so far, I'm almost strictly a BG player but Tas seems too good to not get something going with. Riftsweeper and maybe even Living Wish seem like good fall back plans to someone metagaming you super hard or to "that guy" that Bogs you way early in the game just because you are playing Tas. Mirror of Fate seems like a card I would like to play as more of a catch all, plus it would force me to play Paradigm Shift as a 2 card Doomsday. Mirror of Fate lets you pick 0 cards if you want, setting up a win with Laboratory Maniac and a draw spell.
I actually tested it, liked it far better than DC because it was also just a solid tutor, and then discarded Doomsday because it required playing too many cards which were atrocious when I was executing the control gameplan, which made Tas perform far worse. In essence, the deck was a BUG Doomsday/Control deck that could've had anyone at the helm, which just felt real bad. And not my type of thing.
I'm currently playing Riftsweeper, however, so I can still Tooth and Nail combo (sorta) after having Palinchron exiled. Other than insurance, I have nothing to say to the card. I don't expect much, but who knows.
I recently built a Tasigur list, and I borrowed some ideas from around the internet, including this list. I jammed some games with it today for the first time, and I was stunned by how potent Tasigur is as a general. On paper he looks good, but he is far better in practice. The political aspect of Tasigur is absolutely insane. It's extremely difficult for other players to make degenerate moves when the rest of the table is willingly letting me use counterspells over and over. In the games I played, there was a combo player that could just never get his combos off the ground because the table gave me counterspells, and there was an Elves player who could never establish a profitable board position because by the time that he did, someone was willing to give me back a board wipe. By the time I'm in a threatening enough position to have to draw the ire of the table, it's usually too late for them anyways.
I also agree with the idea that Doomsday combo isn't really needed--Tasigur himself can often just get there himself. Once you're in a winning position, there is little that can be done to stop you. I've played control with other commanders before, and none of them felt like they were even close to Tasigur's caliber.
I'll add another voice to the people backing Training Grounds--the card is absolutely insane in this deck. It feels almost like the best ramp spell in the deck.
Faerie Macabre is a card I'm very fond of in this deck. It's a free, uncounterable source of graveyard hate that can be used to absolutely ruin a graveyard-reliant deck's day.
Submerge might be a little meta-dependent, but it's really excellent. It's a great way to randomly tuck generals for free in response to a fetch/tutor.
I recently built a Tasigur list, and I borrowed some ideas from around the internet, including this list. I jammed some games with it today for the first time, and I was stunned by how potent Tasigur is as a general. On paper he looks good, but he is far better in practice. The political aspect of Tasigur is absolutely insane. It's extremely difficult for other players to make degenerate moves when the rest of the table is willingly letting me use counterspells over and over. In the games I played, there was a combo player that could just never get his combos off the ground because the table gave me counterspells, and there was an Elves player who could never establish a profitable board position because by the time that he did, someone was willing to give me back a board wipe. By the time I'm in a threatening enough position to have to draw the ire of the table, it's usually too late for them anyways.
I also agree with the idea that Doomsday combo isn't really needed--Tasigur himself can often just get there himself. Once you're in a winning position, there is little that can be done to stop you. I've played control with other commanders before, and none of them felt like they were even close to Tasigur's caliber.
I'll add another voice to the people backing Training Grounds--the card is absolutely insane in this deck. It feels almost like the best ramp spell in the deck.
Faerie Macabre is a card I'm very fond of in this deck. It's a free, uncounterable source of graveyard hate that can be used to absolutely ruin a graveyard-reliant deck's day.
Yeah, the more I play Tasigur the more I realize that I highly undervalued him at first glance. And realistically, my first thoughts were "This will break standard! Also, this is a massive upgrade for my Oona control deck! He is insane!" The power to have constant recursion makes him a real reactive control deck, which is such an amazing thing to see in a multiplayer format.
Faerie Macabre is probably one of the best cards in the deck. People don't seem to realize how incredible a secret Tormod's Crypt is. Free, uncounterable, and all around great.
Submerge might be a little meta-dependent, but it's really excellent. It's a great way to randomly tuck generals for free in response to a fetch/tutor.
That tech is so disgusting that it makes me want to play Song of the Dryads, a card I notoriously dislike.
So I played a few games this weekend with Tasigur with my Reanimator theme going on, and it was highly enjoyable for me. I'll give a brief summary of each game I played and a few general observations I have about Reanimator.
G1 would have been put away so hard, so fast because I opened with Entomb, Buried Alive, and Necromancy with Deathrite Shaman also. But then Chainer played a T0 Leyline of the Void. Wow. His only real piece of grave-hate and it comes down before I even play a card. Supra lame. My opening hand, consequently, was utterly useless. My best friend's Damia deck won, because I kept drawing pieces that work great for Reanimator but not one of the 8 pieces of enchantment removal I run. I countered some things, but ultimately couldn't interact past that Leyline. Meh. I would have had a T3 Jin-Gitaxias to put the game away pretty hard, so in my mind I feel like it was kinda a fluke game. That's not going to happen every time.
G2 I put away excellently. Tasigur did his thing of recurring permission pieces, controlling the board so well (Seedborn Muse should be encased in gold in this deck) that I never felt threatened by anyone. Eventually I draw some of the traditional Reanimator pieces (Bazaar of Baghdad is so great here) and play Living Death not once, not twice, but three times. Eternal Witness did some awesome things and worked very hard for me. As wraths are not very common in my meta, my opponent's were facing down Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Primeval Titan (we have a house unbanning of this card because counterspells and spot removal being common enough in our group), and Consecrated Sphinxat the end of the Living Death loops. I drew into Tooth and Nail when no one had hands due to Jin-Gitaxias, and killed everyone with Mike and Trike. It was scarily efficient.
G3 We decided to play some Planechase. And we got some awful planes to be on. There's one where you have to flip a coin or your spell gets countered and my best friend Steely Dan and I were outvoted to stay on this plane. That sucked. But this is the game where I got to play politics so hard. It raises a question, however: for Tasigur's ability, do I have to select an opponent to give me a card back or is it kind of like a vote? I imagine it's the former, but I would like some clarification there because we had a slight argument, and I kinda connived my way into saying any opponent can suggest a card and I pick the best one. That was pretty awesome. Anyways, Dismember and Putrefy were played two times apiece, and things were real dead all the time. There was Grand Arbiter at the table, and he cost 12UW to cast from the command zone at the end of the game. We all hate Grand Arbiter... The game progresses and we get stuck on a plane that causes us to lose life whenever a nonblack card is put into our graveyards. Mayael is abusing Contested Cliffs so bad that she's controlling the table just as hard as I am. We have an understanding because I can keep killing her creatures with my removal, but she (piloted by my brother) keeps turning her dudes sideways at me. Eventually three of us are at <10 life. I manage to Dread Return my Consecrated Sphinx to draw lands (I was mana screwed for 4 turns in a row), and Grand Arbiter decides he's done with this game. He plays Phyrexian Metamorph as a copy of my Sphinx. We draw our decks, but I'm tapped out and any free spells I have are totally negated by Grand Arbiter, which is in play. I'm at 9 life, Grand Arbiter is at 4. Chainer tries to go off, Grand Arbiter stops it. Grand Arbiter forgets what plane we're on and dies because exactly 4 nonblack cards go to his 'yard. He dies. Karador then plays Living Death and reanimates Chainer's Mike and Trike. He forgot it was in Chainer's yard... Awkward. Overall, a very fun game, I just wished I had more mana.
Overall, I'm impressed with the deck so far. It has the broken opening lines of play that Reanimator has while still having a ridiculously potent late and mid game presence. Being able to efficiently Reanimate my binned fatties and still maintain removal mana/counterspell mana was incredible. It's great when Reanimating a Prophet of Kruphix, is actually the best play so that I can slide into the control seat and manage the game. I was very pleased with the results, but of course I need more testing to streamline my list and substantiate my observations. One card that I thought about a lot was Training Grounds. Shaving 2 off of activating Tasigur would have been very useful G3 to try and thin through my deck more and fill my 'yard with creatures for my Animate Dead and Phyrexian Delver I had in hand while maintaining mana to control the board. It seems combining Reanimator with a heavier control package is actually working, and I'm converted to BUG again.
This list is running Doomsday so I already fully support it. I nerd out for that card everytime, especially with LSV playing it in this season's vintage super league.
I'm in labs today until 10pm (LAME), so I will come back and edit this post later this evening when I have my deck in front of me. It's a great blend of everything I love to do in a game of Magic. Some cards I'm trying to find room for are Nature's Claim, Leyline of Anticipation, and Slaughter Pact. Gah! The hardest part of this format is making cuts.
With Tasigur, it states "An Opponent." This means you choose the opponent who gives you a card, notably without targetting and AFTER you mill the two cards.
I have no complaints with Lili; she is amazing.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
My deck list sucks right now but I'm cutting some stuff and adding some more goodies as I go. Grisly Salvage is an amazing card go see after t1 fetch. T3 commander. Can't wait to beast this deck up religiously.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Play and sac the mirror, choose up to 7 exiled cards, mirror goes to your graveyard. Play your (not actually) doomsday kill, if it doesnt work/is interrupted use Tasigur to rebuy the mirror and try again, and again and again.
Like if you have infinite mana you win anyway? IDK why you want to play these cards
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
To my knowledge there is no rule in any EDH variant that says that infinite mana wins you the game? You need things to do with that mana.
Commanders get tucked, win conditions get exiled from effects like Bojuka Bog etc. Mirror of Fate is a perfect catch all/insurance policy. It grabs dead eye or palinchron after they've Sword to Plowshares it etc.
If you do have infinite mana, you need to repeatedly use Tas to draw your deck. Now you have infinite mana + your deck, which means infinite recursion, infinite coutnerspells, infinite ways to win. Outside of something with Split Second, which the opponent would have already used at this point to stop you so we can safely assume they don't have something with split second, there is to my knowledge no reasonable way to lose. We already have eighty ways to win with the deck in our hand, the easiest being infinite mill (using Predict over and over), Laboratory Maniac, infinite Time Warps, etc. Mirror of Fate is completely redundant in all of these.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
DEN/Pal is very hard to get rid of with targeted removal.
If Pal has resolved, you have a window to swords it in response to DEN, assuming they don't have the mana to return Pal to their hand in response.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Or in response to the initial soulbond trigger, use STP on DEN himself instead. Stops the combo cold.
DEN + friends is powerful but is still very vulnerable to targeted removal. Not to derail the thread but this is one reason why it shouldn't/won't be banned.
In other news, I second the addition of Training Grounds. Being able to use Tasigur's ability at half price is absolutely insane, especially with all the Prophet/Seedborn Muse shenanigans. Worth the one U investment all day.
@Awina, how do you feel about Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger? I have him in my initial list but have yet to draw him. Seems quite good in this kind of control shell with the aforementioned untap creatures, plus you run a few reanimation spells so I figure there is some upside there.
Vorinclex is currently in because I'm testing mana combos. He gets me there really easily, is a very annoying threat, and hugely punishes my opponents (with Prophet, I get 8 turns to their 3, hows that even fair?) He is significantly worse than Crypt Ghast, so the question becomes "Do I want one more way to do the combo, and if not is he better than Deadeye?" I think that its a heavy maybe. Going late, having Deadeye and an EWit is basically unbeatable, but its also not like 'clex is a pushover himself. As for Training Grounds, it has been slotted; lets see how it goes! I'm excited for that one.
I have yet another list. The constant is that killing things and having nearly infinite free counters tends to win games. This goes harder on control, and replaced the Doomsday package with some more card draw (Windfall MVP) and the infinite mana package. Im dealing with a bit of a personal crisis, so I dont have the list till I get back to a computer, but I like how it has played so far.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
Since my previous post on having a Reanimator theme was glossed over, no offense taken, I wanted to pose the question again and explain why I think it might be a viable strategy.
Tasigur's ability self mills, and it seems that said effect is incidental to the actual desired effect of recurring a specific card in order to control the table. This means, from my prelimnary games and goldfishing, that there are other cards that are being milled that aren't necessarily desirable to be given to you. As an example, say Azami combo is trying to go off, and you have the Trickbind or counterspell in the 'yard that will stop it. Tasigur politics does its thing and you and an opponent agree for you to pick up the Trickbind/counterspell to stop Azami's shenanigans. If I have a Reanimator theme going on, then there is a high possibility for me to mill a fat fatty that I can reanimate with a cheap spell on my turn. I think that by adding a Reanimator theme, you add a dimension of playing creatures from a unique zone that is consistently filled as part of the overall game plan of controlling the table. These creatures are fantastic control cards that might otherwise not make the list because youwould have to tap out a large amount of mana to do so. As an example, Jin-Gitaxias is one of the best control creatures printed that is basically the piece de la resistance of Reanimator decks, EDH or Legacy. The possibility of having sick Reanimator plays that bury a table while still maintaining a good control package seems very easy to integrate. I don't know if that makes sense, but in my head it does, haha. What are your thoughts?
Also, I am curious if Crucible of Worlds has been considered before. I would imagine yes, but I don't recall it being discussed in the thread. If it has been, my bad.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
If you do decide to go with the reanimator strategy while maintaining the draw-go control shell then it's possible to use your reanimation threats as board control as you mentioned with Jin-Gitaxias. All three of the praetors would be quite good for that actually as they all hinder your opponents and provide huge advantage for you. Other big beaters that give immediate advantage could be possible as well such as Rune-Scarred Demon or Sphinx of Uthuun. After that the best reanimation spells would be the cheapest ones so Reanimate, Animate Dead,Necromancy and maybe Stitch Together if you can consistently fill up your graveyard.
That'd be a good start if you want to try reanimator though you might need to add more support than just Tasigur. Forbidden Alchemy is a great card for this and there's plenty others I'm sure.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
So, a couple things on the idea of Tasigur as a Reanimator deck. I play against what I consider to be one of the best grave decks in the format (or in most formats, comparitively,) so I have a good idea about how it would go down. First of all, I've sorta already got it going on. I play three reanimate spells (Reanimate, Necromancy, and Dread Return) at the moment, and its usually enough to get me through, but never enough to justify the theme. As far as fatties, I play guys that either win me the game or aren't that great for my opponents; Jin Gitaxias, Vorinclex, Palinchron, Deadeye Navigator, Consecrated Sphinx, and Prophet of Kruphix (sorta), because having an opponent reanimate them is a HUGE threat, and something I always have to play around.
Long way short, I sorta am already. And its currently as far as I'm willing. I dislike going heavier into a reanimator subtheme, because I think it will significantly weaken the instant-speed function of the deck, which is a lot of what makes it powerful.
Not exactly; Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, Exhume, and Necromancy are all real cheap. That doesn't change the fact that they significantly hinder the draw-go gameplan by being atrocious things to draw midgame, so you've got that down.
Forbidden Alchemy is solid, but ultimately not what I want all the time. I'm often delving away most of my graveyard, so ideally cards I draw either need to be immediately live (and contribute to the gameplan of slow everybody down) or generate massive card advantage somehow. This is why, once you see my new list, I'll be playing Dig Through Time and Underworld Connections (oh my god this card is absurd with Prophet or Muse) instead of Brainstorm and Gitaxian Probe. As far as the Reanimator thing, the bombs are cards that are generally bad when I'm playing the control gameplan, which is my most oft-adopted. The power of recursion is insane, allowing my to blow removal and counterspells early and STILL have access to them.
If you plan to test it, please let me know how it goes! I've personally tested Doomsday, Infinite Mana, and Draw-Go all, and found a deck heavily favoring Draw-Go and mana advantage to be the best thing so far. I would like to try more heavily reanimator (probably add Greater Good, Woodfall Primus, Rune-Scared Demon, Mike, Melira, and Trike as the engine and then Animate Dead, Exhume, Dance of the Dead, Life//Death, and one other as my reanimate spells) but its too dangerous in my meta.
I actually tested it, liked it far better than DC because it was also just a solid tutor, and then discarded Doomsday because it required playing too many cards which were atrocious when I was executing the control gameplan, which made Tas perform far worse. In essence, the deck was a BUG Doomsday/Control deck that could've had anyone at the helm, which just felt real bad. And not my type of thing.
I'm currently playing Riftsweeper, however, so I can still Tooth and Nail combo (sorta) after having Palinchron exiled. Other than insurance, I have nothing to say to the card. I don't expect much, but who knows.
What does Living Wish do for me?
Yeah, here ya go; I'm in a rush as I finish this off, so its not sorted, but its got the whole list!
1x AEther Spellbomb
1x Altar of the Brood
1x Ancient Den
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arcane Denial
1x Artificer's Intuition
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Bitter Ordeal
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Buried Alive
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x City of Brass
1x Codex Shredder
1x Command Tower
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Death Cloud
1x Decree of Pain
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Dimir Signet
1x Dispeller's Capsule
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Entomb
1x Expedition Map
1x Extractor Demon
1x Fetid Heath
1x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Intuition
1x Island
1x Krark-Clan Ironworks
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Lonely Sandbar
1x Lotus Bloom
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Confluence
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Marsh Flats
1x Memory Jar
1x Metalworker
1x Mishra's Workshop
1x Mox Opal
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Oblation
1x Open the Vaults
1x Pact of Negation
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reanimate
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rhystic Study
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Salvaging Station
1x Scrubland
1x Sculpting Steel
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sol Ring
1x Strip Mine
1x Swamp
1x Swan Song
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Talisman of Dominance
1x Talisman of Progress
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Tawnos's Coffin
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Time Sieve
1x Timetwister
1x Trading Post
1x Transmute Artifact
1x Tundra
1x Unburial Rites
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Voltaic Key
1x Watery Grave
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
I also agree with the idea that Doomsday combo isn't really needed--Tasigur himself can often just get there himself. Once you're in a winning position, there is little that can be done to stop you. I've played control with other commanders before, and none of them felt like they were even close to Tasigur's caliber.
I'll add another voice to the people backing Training Grounds--the card is absolutely insane in this deck. It feels almost like the best ramp spell in the deck.
Faerie Macabre is a card I'm very fond of in this deck. It's a free, uncounterable source of graveyard hate that can be used to absolutely ruin a graveyard-reliant deck's day.
Submerge might be a little meta-dependent, but it's really excellent. It's a great way to randomly tuck generals for free in response to a fetch/tutor.
Yeah, the more I play Tasigur the more I realize that I highly undervalued him at first glance. And realistically, my first thoughts were "This will break standard! Also, this is a massive upgrade for my Oona control deck! He is insane!" The power to have constant recursion makes him a real reactive control deck, which is such an amazing thing to see in a multiplayer format.
Faerie Macabre is probably one of the best cards in the deck. People don't seem to realize how incredible a secret Tormod's Crypt is. Free, uncounterable, and all around great.
That tech is so disgusting that it makes me want to play Song of the Dryads, a card I notoriously dislike.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
G1 would have been put away so hard, so fast because I opened with Entomb, Buried Alive, and Necromancy with Deathrite Shaman also. But then Chainer played a T0 Leyline of the Void. Wow. His only real piece of grave-hate and it comes down before I even play a card. Supra lame. My opening hand, consequently, was utterly useless. My best friend's Damia deck won, because I kept drawing pieces that work great for Reanimator but not one of the 8 pieces of enchantment removal I run. I countered some things, but ultimately couldn't interact past that Leyline. Meh. I would have had a T3 Jin-Gitaxias to put the game away pretty hard, so in my mind I feel like it was kinda a fluke game. That's not going to happen every time.
G2 I put away excellently. Tasigur did his thing of recurring permission pieces, controlling the board so well (Seedborn Muse should be encased in gold in this deck) that I never felt threatened by anyone. Eventually I draw some of the traditional Reanimator pieces (Bazaar of Baghdad is so great here) and play Living Death not once, not twice, but three times. Eternal Witness did some awesome things and worked very hard for me. As wraths are not very common in my meta, my opponent's were facing down Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Primeval Titan (we have a house unbanning of this card because counterspells and spot removal being common enough in our group), and Consecrated Sphinxat the end of the Living Death loops. I drew into Tooth and Nail when no one had hands due to Jin-Gitaxias, and killed everyone with Mike and Trike. It was scarily efficient.
G3 We decided to play some Planechase. And we got some awful planes to be on. There's one where you have to flip a coin or your spell gets countered and my best friend Steely Dan and I were outvoted to stay on this plane. That sucked. But this is the game where I got to play politics so hard. It raises a question, however: for Tasigur's ability, do I have to select an opponent to give me a card back or is it kind of like a vote? I imagine it's the former, but I would like some clarification there because we had a slight argument, and I kinda connived my way into saying any opponent can suggest a card and I pick the best one. That was pretty awesome. Anyways, Dismember and Putrefy were played two times apiece, and things were real dead all the time. There was Grand Arbiter at the table, and he cost 12UW to cast from the command zone at the end of the game. We all hate Grand Arbiter... The game progresses and we get stuck on a plane that causes us to lose life whenever a nonblack card is put into our graveyards. Mayael is abusing Contested Cliffs so bad that she's controlling the table just as hard as I am. We have an understanding because I can keep killing her creatures with my removal, but she (piloted by my brother) keeps turning her dudes sideways at me. Eventually three of us are at <10 life. I manage to Dread Return my Consecrated Sphinx to draw lands (I was mana screwed for 4 turns in a row), and Grand Arbiter decides he's done with this game. He plays Phyrexian Metamorph as a copy of my Sphinx. We draw our decks, but I'm tapped out and any free spells I have are totally negated by Grand Arbiter, which is in play. I'm at 9 life, Grand Arbiter is at 4. Chainer tries to go off, Grand Arbiter stops it. Grand Arbiter forgets what plane we're on and dies because exactly 4 nonblack cards go to his 'yard. He dies. Karador then plays Living Death and reanimates Chainer's Mike and Trike. He forgot it was in Chainer's yard... Awkward. Overall, a very fun game, I just wished I had more mana.
Overall, I'm impressed with the deck so far. It has the broken opening lines of play that Reanimator has while still having a ridiculously potent late and mid game presence. Being able to efficiently Reanimate my binned fatties and still maintain removal mana/counterspell mana was incredible. It's great when Reanimating a Prophet of Kruphix, is actually the best play so that I can slide into the control seat and manage the game. I was very pleased with the results, but of course I need more testing to streamline my list and substantiate my observations. One card that I thought about a lot was Training Grounds. Shaving 2 off of activating Tasigur would have been very useful G3 to try and thin through my deck more and fill my 'yard with creatures for my Animate Dead and Phyrexian Delver I had in hand while maintaining mana to control the board. It seems combining Reanimator with a heavier control package is actually working, and I'm converted to BUG again.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls - Knowledge is Power U [Primer]
R Heartless Hidetsugu - The Art of Ending Games R
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - The Cluster HungersBG
I've been following this thread for a while and really like the concept, Avvina. Great work.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe