With the addition of dorks, I think that its hugely worth testing out overrun effects, notably Triumph of the Hordes. The card works really well in other dorkdecks like Edric and Derevi, and having the one copy to take out that BUG player who ramped too hard may be nice.
I may try triumph again. I have played it in the past and been unhappy with how it performed, but my creature count is about 5 higher than it was at that time, and many of those come low on the curve. Do you think triumph is superior to Craterhoof Behemoth or something like Garruk, Wildspeaker?
I believe that Craterhoof is pretty bad here; the other two though, arent a whole lot better. Garruk is certainl ly just the better card because he has other utility, but his other abilities are actually things you dont need to be doing. On top of that, he isnt a surprise at all and people have time to prepare for it. Triumph, meanwhile, gives less of a buff and deals infect, so if you dont get there youve wasted your swing almost completely.
I think its probably Hoof simply bevause creature and surprise factor, but I'm not certain of anything. Its an effect worth testing because of the dorks, and none of the cards are particularly special in your deck.
I think its probably Hoof simply bevause creature and surprise factor, but I'm not certain of anything. Its an effect worth testing because of the dorks, and none of the cards are particularly special in your deck.
Have you considered Patron Wizard? I run it in my Momir list and it gets ridiculous with Prophet of Kruphix. I also prefer Magus of the Future to Azami, Lady of Scrolls, the card advantage is off the charts in combination with Momir and Prophet, especially if you want to abuse Sensei's Divining Top. Lastly, I am a fan of Trinket Mage, it fetches Sol Ring when you need mana, Skullclamp or the Top when you need cards.
I have considered patron wizard before, but have never actually tried it. I can definitely see it being excellent with prophet, so I think I'll have to try it out. UUU is sort of difficult for me early in the game, but I can do it later on. Seems powerful. I find Azami to be strong for the exact same reasons you mentioned with patron wizard.
I've played magus in the past, but it's been about 6 months since I have. It was a good card, but felt like I was just too heavy on 5 drops. I think it may be worth looking into again though.
Trinket mage is a strong card, but I don't think it's the best fit here. I think if I had a mana crypt I would be more likely to run it, but as it stands the only targets are sol ring (which is worse in this deck than many others) and clamp (a new addition, I'm not sure how well it will perform). There is something to be said for playing mage, and adding a small package with relic of progenitus, a card I have considered playing as more grave hate, but I don't think it's something I want to be doing. The fact that prophet doesn't untap artifacts is massive for me, and I'm so all in on that plan that I'm very wary of playing more of them. That's why I have eschewed all artifact ramp beyond sol ring.
I think that not untapping lands, or giving my creatures flash, makes it not worth running. While I dorks, they are meant to be used in conjunction with lands to really put the mana over the top. Seedborn muse is already not amazing, but still just barely worth it. My secondary prophets really should BE another prophet, which is why I'm so big on clones.
Do you run Skullclamp? I think you should, because of the dork plan. Also because its insane. I think Skullclamp alone is also enough reason to run Trinket Mage, though the card is pretty terrible.
You did mention you were struggling to draw cards.
I actually just added clamp a few weeks ago, but have not yet drawn it in testing. It certainly seems like a good card, though. However, I don't think it's a big enough part of my game plan to add trinket mage. Sol ring is already not amazing for me, and then I'm stuck running trinket mage, tutoring for things that I can't cast at instant speed? Gross. I just don't think the effect fits well enough with my game plan.
It sounds like the community is really behind magus. I'll give him another go. Before he just seemed really slow and vulnerable, but I think he could be worth of reconsideration since the deck has become faster since he was removed.
I'm not sure how good earthcraft would be. Many of my creatures are dorks already, or tapping for other things like Azami. Plus it dies to Bane of Progress. Maybe the effect is just so powerful that its worth trying. I'll check it out.
I'm also thinking of playing Shrieking Drake if I play earthcraft, for infinite blue triggers. Seems like a powerful interaction, while still being a decent piece of protection in the rest of the game.
[EDIT] OOPS! Posted my response to the WRONG Momir Vig thread, but I'll leave it here just in case it contains anything useful.
Alright, so if you want a durable build, you'll need to trend towards goodstuff with the aim to generate some value off of Vig's ability. I wouldn't expect anything special from that strategy that you couldn't find in anything UG, and you might be better off going tricolor at that point (BUG?).
If you want to actually use Vig for what he does best, you're looking at a glass cannon combo deck. It's really too bad you can't abuse Painter's Servant and Primeval Titan into Dark Depths+Thespian's Stage, but that's okay! We are still reasonably fast and once we go off, hard to stop.
The aim of the deck is simple up until you begin to go off. Ramp mana as fast as you can, cast Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, ideally with protection up (Sylvan Safekeeper, Wirewood Symbiote, Spellskite, etc.) and on the same turn cast a green creature, preferably one of the many green one-drops you load your deck down with (most of which should be elfs and druids!) Tutor Prophet of Kruphix to the top and hope you and Vig survive until your next turn.
If you untap and actually resolve Prophet (Gaea's Herald, Dosan the Falling Leaf, and company can help), tutor Soul of the Harvest into your hand, play it on your next untap, and find Lys Alana Huntmaster. Cast that on your next untap, get Heritage Druid, tap that, Huntmaster, and the token, for GGG, tutor Nettle Sentinel, play it, tap that, the new token, and Vig for GGG, and from there go nuts, chaining into more one-drop elves to generate mana while you optionally pump them along the way with Master Biomancer and Joraga Warcaller, who happen to be elves. You can also toss a Progenitor Mimic into the mix if there's anything you feel like copying.
At some point cast Gilt-Leaf Archdruid and take out the most dangerous person's lands, which you can repeat every person's turn thanks to Prophet. If that isn't enough to win, grab Craterhoof Behemoth on your turn and just run everyone over.
Piece of advice for ramping: Other than the obvious like Llanowar Elves variants and things like Skyshroud Ranger and Elvish Pioneer, you should try to fit in a lot of ramp 2 for 4 or less. Here's a list of some good ones:
The point is to get Vig out fast and still have enough mana to cast at least a 1-drop to get Prophet of Kruphix or something for a plan B if Prophet isn't going to work (Consecrated Sphinx or some other trump card you include for this situation).
When I used to play tower, I realized that I was so rarely actually using the max hand size that it wasn't worth the colorless land. Anyways, if I have 7 cards in hand I'm usually in such a good spot that discarding is pretty irrelevant. Kruphix just isn't a card I can get behind, because it takes so long to get rolling. While he gets value with prophet, other things like Azami get superior value, and I generate plenty of mana anyways. My personal rule with cards which cost 5+ in this deck is that they have to be something I'm willing to tutor for, and I don't think Kruphix fits in that category. I play so much chaff at the low end that I need my high drops to be really impactful. Clex is a card I've considered, mainly for interactions with palinchron, but in the end he's an 8 drop that doesn't do enough and just gets reanimated against me. He doesn't do anything that something like deadeye does for me with more utility.
As far as my amount of card draw, I like to always have cards in hand to have options, and I always want to have the ability to trigger Momir and start chaining card advantage. Because I play so many low impact cards to accelerate my deck, I need card draw to find things to use all that mana on. I'm pretty happy with where the suite stands now.
Also, I cut voidslime, because it just never did anything more than be a 3cmc counterspell. The only ability I ever wanted to stifle was cycled decree of pain, and that was too rare to justify playing the card. I have put in Temur Sabertooth as a value card and creature cloudstone curio. Currently trying to trade for a Cloud of Fairies to go in with sabertooth to make it combo.
Cards I'm currently looking to add/test:
Joraga treespeaker
Shrieking Drake
Cloud of Fairies
Crop rotation
Earthcraft
Magus of the Future
Cards on the chopping block:
One of the 1cmc elves (probably mystic because I like the art least) to be replaced by treespeaker
Forbid has proven to be slow and sort of win-more. I'm not a fan of 3cmc counters in principle, and the buyback has been very rare
Reap and sow may be traded out for crop rotation. I think that just getting cradle more quickly is worth losing the land here, and I don't really want too much of this effect
Walk the aeons has just been redundant. One time warp is plenty, and frankly not even that necessary. While obviously time warp effects are strong, Prophet is kind of like a bunch of time warps on its own. I also only need one of the two warps to go infinite with deadeye and eternal witness, and I no longer run the wombo-combo of paying the buyback every turn then replaying 3 islands from the yard using exploration, oracle of mul daya, and crucible of worlds
Farhaven elf has just been really meh for me. It would be better served being a mana dork to come down earlier or just a real card. It feels bad every time I play it. This is a relic from Roon, and it shows.
Cards I'm currently looking to add/test:
Joraga treespeaker
Shrieking Drake
Cloud of Fairies
Crop rotation
Earthcraft
Magus of the Future
Cards on the chopping block:
One of the 1cmc elves (probably mystic because I like the art least) to be replaced by treespeaker
Forbid has proven to be slow and sort of win-more. I'm not a fan of 3cmc counters in principle, and the buyback has been very rare
Reap and sow may be traded out for crop rotation. I think that just getting cradle more quickly is worth losing the land here, and I don't really want too much of this effect
Walk the aeons has just been redundant. One time warp is plenty, and frankly not even that necessary. While obviously time warp effects are strong, Prophet is kind of like a bunch of time warps on its own. I also only need one of the two warps to go infinite with deadeye and eternal witness, and I no longer run the wombo-combo of paying the buyback every turn then replaying 3 islands from the yard using exploration, oracle of mul daya, and crucible of worlds
Farhaven elf has just been really meh for me. It would be better served being a mana dork to come down earlier or just a real card. It feels bad every time I play it. This is a relic from Roon, and it shows.
Maybe keep Mystic, cut Farhaven Elf instead?
I think I prefer CR to R&S in this build. Makes me want to recommend Thespian's Stage to copy opposing Cradles or Coffers when someone has Urborg.
I hate the idea of not having multiple ways to win - maybe find some ways to win after TW is exiled?
I think I prefer CR to R&S in this build. Makes me want to recommend Thespian's Stage to copy opposing Cradles or Coffers when someone has Urborg.
I hate the idea of not having multiple ways to win - maybe find some ways to win after TW is exiled?
Farhaven Elf is definitely on the chopping block before Elvish mystic, but depending on the amount if changes mystic might go as well. Rotation is probably the better choice here, just because of how much earlier it comes down. I have never been a fan of thespian's stage, because in my experience I never have the mana to use it. It doesn't seem worth the colorless land, which I've actively been trying to cut down on. Honestly, Time warp is a secondary win for me, since people generally scoop to venser lock. Warp is more often played for value than for combo.
Removed farhaven elf, because it felt terrible and was next on the chopping block. Just way too slow. Added clever impersonator. Helpful with cloning for counterspells, but also can become necropotence. Really the main reason it can be better than metamorph
What about Magus of the Candelabra instead of Voyaging Satyr. It costs one to activate, though we are using it for nykthos and Gaes we should be able to afford the mana (as well, we are able to untap both, Nykthos and Geas) but he is a wizard in addition and can draw us a card.
That seems really good, honestly. I'd almost reccomend just playing it alongside Voyaging Satyr and Kiora's Follower, because the effect is just real strong on its own. But if its too redundant, I definitely see Voyaging Satyr being the cuttable one. Thanks, Wizard typing.
The biggest thing against Magus, though, is that at its worst it becomes filtering rather than an actual 2cmc ramp spell, which is relevant here.
Yeah, not a fan of Magus. The way I see it, Voyaging Satyr is a 2-mana ramp spell that sometimes is nuts with Cradle or Nykthos, whereas Magus is a one-mana do nothing unless you've got Cradle / Nykthos and they're actually generating enough mana, and unless you have both it's still worse than Voyaging Satyr. Magus is as noted a Wizard though.
I'm going to have to agree with the others on this one. Magus seems only powerful once one of my high powered lands is already in play, and once that has happened the untappers are good, but really just icing on the cake. Their ability to accelerate as well is their big draw.
I may try triumph again. I have played it in the past and been unhappy with how it performed, but my creature count is about 5 higher than it was at that time, and many of those come low on the curve. Do you think triumph is superior to Craterhoof Behemoth or something like Garruk, Wildspeaker?
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I think its probably Hoof simply bevause creature and surprise factor, but I'm not certain of anything. Its an effect worth testing because of the dorks, and none of the cards are particularly special in your deck.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
I think the best card for this slot might be Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
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CubeTutor Link
I've played magus in the past, but it's been about 6 months since I have. It was a good card, but felt like I was just too heavy on 5 drops. I think it may be worth looking into again though.
Trinket mage is a strong card, but I don't think it's the best fit here. I think if I had a mana crypt I would be more likely to run it, but as it stands the only targets are sol ring (which is worse in this deck than many others) and clamp (a new addition, I'm not sure how well it will perform). There is something to be said for playing mage, and adding a small package with relic of progenitus, a card I have considered playing as more grave hate, but I don't think it's something I want to be doing. The fact that prophet doesn't untap artifacts is massive for me, and I'm so all in on that plan that I'm very wary of playing more of them. That's why I have eschewed all artifact ramp beyond sol ring.
Anyways, thanks for the suggestions!
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Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck
You did mention you were struggling to draw cards.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
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Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck
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Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck
Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
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Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck
Alright, so if you want a durable build, you'll need to trend towards goodstuff with the aim to generate some value off of Vig's ability. I wouldn't expect anything special from that strategy that you couldn't find in anything UG, and you might be better off going tricolor at that point (BUG?).
If you want to actually use Vig for what he does best, you're looking at a glass cannon combo deck. It's really too bad you can't abuse Painter's Servant and Primeval Titan into Dark Depths+Thespian's Stage, but that's okay! We are still reasonably fast and once we go off, hard to stop.
Key cards we still have access to include: Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Lys Alana Huntmaster, Prophet of Kruphix, Soul of the Harvest, Progenitor Mimic, Master Biomancer, Joraga Warcaller, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Gilt-Leaf Archdruid.
The aim of the deck is simple up until you begin to go off. Ramp mana as fast as you can, cast Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, ideally with protection up (Sylvan Safekeeper, Wirewood Symbiote, Spellskite, etc.) and on the same turn cast a green creature, preferably one of the many green one-drops you load your deck down with (most of which should be elfs and druids!) Tutor Prophet of Kruphix to the top and hope you and Vig survive until your next turn.
If you untap and actually resolve Prophet (Gaea's Herald, Dosan the Falling Leaf, and company can help), tutor Soul of the Harvest into your hand, play it on your next untap, and find Lys Alana Huntmaster. Cast that on your next untap, get Heritage Druid, tap that, Huntmaster, and the token, for GGG, tutor Nettle Sentinel, play it, tap that, the new token, and Vig for GGG, and from there go nuts, chaining into more one-drop elves to generate mana while you optionally pump them along the way with Master Biomancer and Joraga Warcaller, who happen to be elves. You can also toss a Progenitor Mimic into the mix if there's anything you feel like copying.
At some point cast Gilt-Leaf Archdruid and take out the most dangerous person's lands, which you can repeat every person's turn thanks to Prophet. If that isn't enough to win, grab Craterhoof Behemoth on your turn and just run everyone over.
Piece of advice for ramping: Other than the obvious like Llanowar Elves variants and things like Skyshroud Ranger and Elvish Pioneer, you should try to fit in a lot of ramp 2 for 4 or less. Here's a list of some good ones:
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Joraga Treespeaker
Greenweaver Druid
Fyndhorn Elder
Palladium Myr
Worn Powerstone
Coalition Relic
Argothian Elder
Karametra's Acolyte
Everflowing Chalice
Ur-Golem's Eye
Sisay's Ring
Thran Dynamo
Market Festival
Dawn's Reflection
Explosive Vegetation
Hunting Wilds
Ranger's Path
Fabricate->Sol Ring
Trinket Mage->Sol Ring
Dizzy Spell->Sol Ring
The point is to get Vig out fast and still have enough mana to cast at least a 1-drop to get Prophet of Kruphix or something for a plan B if Prophet isn't going to work (Consecrated Sphinx or some other trump card you include for this situation).
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
When I used to play tower, I realized that I was so rarely actually using the max hand size that it wasn't worth the colorless land. Anyways, if I have 7 cards in hand I'm usually in such a good spot that discarding is pretty irrelevant. Kruphix just isn't a card I can get behind, because it takes so long to get rolling. While he gets value with prophet, other things like Azami get superior value, and I generate plenty of mana anyways. My personal rule with cards which cost 5+ in this deck is that they have to be something I'm willing to tutor for, and I don't think Kruphix fits in that category. I play so much chaff at the low end that I need my high drops to be really impactful. Clex is a card I've considered, mainly for interactions with palinchron, but in the end he's an 8 drop that doesn't do enough and just gets reanimated against me. He doesn't do anything that something like deadeye does for me with more utility.
As far as my amount of card draw, I like to always have cards in hand to have options, and I always want to have the ability to trigger Momir and start chaining card advantage. Because I play so many low impact cards to accelerate my deck, I need card draw to find things to use all that mana on. I'm pretty happy with where the suite stands now.
Also, I cut voidslime, because it just never did anything more than be a 3cmc counterspell. The only ability I ever wanted to stifle was cycled decree of pain, and that was too rare to justify playing the card. I have put in Temur Sabertooth as a value card and creature cloudstone curio. Currently trying to trade for a Cloud of Fairies to go in with sabertooth to make it combo.
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Joraga treespeaker
Shrieking Drake
Cloud of Fairies
Crop rotation
Earthcraft
Magus of the Future
Cards on the chopping block:
One of the 1cmc elves (probably mystic because I like the art least) to be replaced by treespeaker
Forbid has proven to be slow and sort of win-more. I'm not a fan of 3cmc counters in principle, and the buyback has been very rare
Reap and sow may be traded out for crop rotation. I think that just getting cradle more quickly is worth losing the land here, and I don't really want too much of this effect
Walk the aeons has just been redundant. One time warp is plenty, and frankly not even that necessary. While obviously time warp effects are strong, Prophet is kind of like a bunch of time warps on its own. I also only need one of the two warps to go infinite with deadeye and eternal witness, and I no longer run the wombo-combo of paying the buyback every turn then replaying 3 islands from the yard using exploration, oracle of mul daya, and crucible of worlds
Farhaven elf has just been really meh for me. It would be better served being a mana dork to come down earlier or just a real card. It feels bad every time I play it. This is a relic from Roon, and it shows.
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Maybe keep Mystic, cut Farhaven Elf instead?
I think I prefer CR to R&S in this build. Makes me want to recommend Thespian's Stage to copy opposing Cradles or Coffers when someone has Urborg.
I hate the idea of not having multiple ways to win - maybe find some ways to win after TW is exiled?
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
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Farhaven Elf is definitely on the chopping block before Elvish mystic, but depending on the amount if changes mystic might go as well. Rotation is probably the better choice here, just because of how much earlier it comes down. I have never been a fan of thespian's stage, because in my experience I never have the mana to use it. It doesn't seem worth the colorless land, which I've actively been trying to cut down on. Honestly, Time warp is a secondary win for me, since people generally scoop to venser lock. Warp is more often played for value than for combo.
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That seems really good, honestly. I'd almost reccomend just playing it alongside Voyaging Satyr and Kiora's Follower, because the effect is just real strong on its own. But if its too redundant, I definitely see Voyaging Satyr being the cuttable one. Thanks, Wizard typing.
The biggest thing against Magus, though, is that at its worst it becomes filtering rather than an actual 2cmc ramp spell, which is relevant here.
#moneypile
BUG Tasigur GUB
#buglyfe
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Check out my competitive Momir Vig Toolbox Combo Deck