Hey Razz. I've been thinking about committing to a real competitive deck in paper, and because I truly believe I will never own a Mana Drain or even Force of Will, I've settled on your list (not at all winning by default, I promise. Screaming, "Fite me!" at blue players is kind of a life goal). I just have a couple of questions I'd like your input on as I'm gathering the pieces.
The one card I'm kind of hesitant to pick up is Lord of Extinction. I mean, I could be picking up Thoughtseizes or other cards that are objectively good for the same cost. I have no problem springing for pretty much everything else, because on the very realistic chance that I tear the deck down eventually (EDHD), I'll be able to play the other cards elsewhere, easily. In the case that I don't get one, I was also considering changing the Commander to Meren of Clan Nel Toth. I know you probably consider this a downgrade (otherwise, you'd have made the change yourself), but do you think this is a bad idea or a really bad idea? If you were heading the deck with Meren, is there anything you'd be sure to include that isn't in the list currently?
As to specific cards in the list that I was thinking of potentially changing around... Liliana Vess? I've never been very impressed by a 5-mana, top of library, sorcery-speed tutor. Faerie Macabre is great for being free, but I like Shred Memory a whole lot as target GY hate. Priest of Titania makes [2] with Jarad out, but... even if I wasn't changing the Commander, I might still be skeptical. I mean, without playing an Elf in the Command zone, it's definitely coming out, but how great is it in your deck? Voyaging Saytr. Is the synergy with Coffers strong enough to be playing a 2-mana mana dork? Frontier Siege. I'm guessing you go for mana mode most often. Is the jump from 4 to 7 really important to the deck?
Depending on how essential these cards are, I might swap them around as a personal preference sort of thing. Just making sure there isn't something huge I'm missing.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. Yes, I am still on Tasigur Reanimator and I bounce back and forth between your list and Dies' as the authorities on the subject. Yes, that's a compliment. I will be making some changes to my deck as I don't think that either of your lists are mutually exclusive; blue simply has more ways to interact with the stack that I would trade in for removal slots.
I really like the flavor of Tasigur as a Reanimator guy and his ability is so useful to that strategy. Adding in Necropotence seems really good to further that flavor and the suite of things that I can reanimate is pretty awesome.
How important are the free kill spells generally? I'm looking to streamline my deck to make it more mana efficient and Snuff Out looks enticing as does the Slaughter Pact. Dismember is better in my group cause I can cast it faster with less of a 'yard to get rid of that T2 or T3 Damia or Krenko. And then finally, I've seriously contemplated adding Death Cloud as a way to get things to my 'yard while also massively killing my opponents tempo and board state. Reanimator decks really only need 1-3 mana to work effectively, so Clouding for 3 or 4 would be incredible at the right time. With Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds, which have additional synergy with Tasigur, it seems like I can recover faster than my opponents. Your thoughts on the matter?
Haha thanks benbear. I really want to play with you on Cockatrice sometime because that deck sounds awesome.
I really like Snuff Out; Slaughter Pact is cuttable. Having a zero-mana kill spell is so good, since you can tutor for it in mana-constrained lines to kill hatebears, but Slaughter Pact is disappointing a lot of the time. Murderous Cut is pretty good in Jarad and better with Tas as your commander. Death Cloud is probably only good if you can reliably make lots of mana, but in a Tas deck, that should be a goal.
what do you guys think of Kozilek, the Great Distortion with necropotence? i'm tinkering about rebuilding my esper reanimator. zur looks strong for such an approach.
ive also had much success with VoidVinnower
I do want to try it but don't feel that Koz will be great. In a blue deck, probably worse since you already have counterspells.
Hey Razz. I've been thinking about committing to a real competitive deck in paper, and because I truly believe I will never own a Mana Drain or even Force of Will, I've settled on your list (not at all winning by default, I promise. Screaming, "Fite me!" at blue players is kind of a life goal). I just have a couple of questions I'd like your input on as I'm gathering the pieces.
The one card I'm kind of hesitant to pick up is Lord of Extinction. I mean, I could be picking up Thoughtseizes or other cards that are objectively good for the same cost. I have no problem springing for pretty much everything else, because on the very realistic chance that I tear the deck down eventually (EDHD), I'll be able to play the other cards elsewhere, easily. In the case that I don't get one, I was also considering changing the Commander to Meren of Clan Nel Toth. I know you probably consider this a downgrade (otherwise, you'd have made the change yourself), but do you think this is a bad idea or a really bad idea? If you were heading the deck with Meren, is there anything you'd be sure to include that isn't in the list currently?
As to specific cards in the list that I was thinking of potentially changing around... Liliana Vess? I've never been very impressed by a 5-mana, top of library, sorcery-speed tutor. Faerie Macabre is great for being free, but I like Shred Memory a whole lot as target GY hate. Priest of Titania makes [2] with Jarad out, but... even if I wasn't changing the Commander, I might still be skeptical. I mean, without playing an Elf in the Command zone, it's definitely coming out, but how great is it in your deck? Voyaging Saytr. Is the synergy with Coffers strong enough to be playing a 2-mana mana dork? Frontier Siege. I'm guessing you go for mana mode most often. Is the jump from 4 to 7 really important to the deck?
Depending on how essential these cards are, I might swap them around as a personal preference sort of thing. Just making sure there isn't something huge I'm missing.
Hey Darcykun! If your life goal is fighting blue players, this deck is for you. Your blue control matchups are great, and it's a blast to play.
Lord of Extinction isn't necessary at all. It's a nice addition and if you do commit to the deck I suggest you pick it up at some point but honestly it doesn't come up that often. The only reason I play it is to make Green Sun's Zenith (and Natural Order, when it's in the list) a win in the late-game. I definitely prefer Jarad to Meren, but I encourage you to test it. I've been wrong before. The main reason Jarad is good is because he kills with Phyrexian Devourer, which justifies the Necrotic Ooze combo since the namesake card is the only one that doesn't combo outside of that one. Go ahead and make the switch and see what happens!
All the cards you listed are definitely cuttable. I really like Lili Vess - tutor twice for five mana? Also potential build-your-own Entomb if you tutor and then discard targeting yourself. But none of those cards are core in any way. Priest of Titania is definitely a card that I would play in Meren, simply because I feel like Meren has synergy with creature-based ramp and you'll be playing a lot of elves.
Hey, I just wanted to chime in on this thread with a deck I did well with at my first real Commander event inspired by this Primer.
Last weekend I attended GP Melbourne. After getting brutally molested in Modern by maindeck Ghostly Prisons and maindeck Worship while playing Fish I decided to spend the rest of my Saturday and Sunday playing Commander. I've run my deck at the local store a few times and hadn't yet lost so I went into the games pretty confident I'd do well. I played two casual 4 man pods winning both, and then a Commander bounty event where I got to the finals and was beaten by my opponents ganging up on me. They knew how my deck played having heard how I'd won other games and knew I was the #1 threat at the table.
The deck isn't Jarad, but instead Meren. The Meren Pre-con was the first Commander I'd ever pickled up and as I started to play with her I realised I wanted to abuse the combo synergies in G/B. I don't like long drawn out games so I wanted to be able to close games quickly. I also wanted to be able to take my deck to an event and beat other degenerate Commanders. While working to improve the Meren deck I stumbled upon this primer and realised almost the exact same strategy was the right direction to take Meren. Below you can find the list I ran through the event, which is close to finished but still requires tweaking:
There are some notable cards missing from this deck for availability reasons: Sensei's Diving Top, Scroll Rack, Misty Rainforest, Marsh Flats, and Mana Crypt. The Evolutionary Leap has already been replaced with a Scroll Rack I picked up at the end of the GP.
The primary game plan with the deck is to pull off a Necrotic Ooze combo, Mike + Trike combo, Jarad combo, or Woodfall + Mikaeus combo. If your opponents successfully keep you off of the combos you can use your commander and the Praetors to pursue a win instead.
So I'll start by explaining the biggest Difference - Why Meren over Jarad?
There are a few reasons for Meren being my Commander. The first and most important reason is that I want the ability to Tooth and Nail for Jarad + Phyrexian Devourer against opponents that have open mana. It doesn't take much to break apart the Mike + Trike combo, but the Jarad + Devourer combo is near impossible to interact with. The second reason is that Jarad is only really good when I'm ready to win, but Meren can help loop early creatures like Sakura-Tribe Elder and ensure you're actually able to go off. The third is that Meren is a reanimation spell letting you get back win cons like Necrotic Ooze against opponents ready with removal. The last is that Meren is an amazing way to grind out opponents if most of your kills have been stopped. She's even more insane after a Mindslicer strips everyone's hands.
There are a number of cards that I'm not sure about in this list:
I find the Signet would generally be better served as a dude so that it both ramps and interacts positively with sacrifice effects and Meren. My intention is to swap it for a Devoted Druid which plays very nicely with Pattern of Rebirth.
Damnation and Living Death are sort of emergency buttons, but I've yet to find myself in a board state where they would help me more than hurt me. By comparison I regularly encounter situations where sacrifice effects like Butcher of Malakir, Fleshbag Marauder, Merciless Executioner, and Grave Pact would be stronger. Those have all been in the list at some point and I'm wondering if I at least need a Fleshbag Marauder back in the deck.
Defense of the Heart was supposed to be another Tooth and Nail for the deck but I think I'm deluding myself. Only bad players will let me trigger the enchantment and kill the table. A table of bad players.
Greater Good is my non-creature repeatable free sac outlet but I'm not sure it's the right one. It doesn't help me utilise Viridian Emissary on time, is as likely to pull me ahead as set me behind, and has a bigger limitation on how much I can use it. Over options I've tried are Altar of Dementia, Phyrexian Altar, Ashnod's Altar, and Spawning Pit. Of those I think I actually like the Spawning Pit or Altar of Dementia the most since each can act as a win condition. Altar in particular gives you a means of beating opponents with infinite life if you get the Persist loop going.
On the persist loop, I'm not sure how heavily I should consider running it. It's not come up yet but it's also pretty low cost to include in the deck. Sepulchral Primordial often plays like a bigger Puppeteer Clique. Maybe I should just have Puppeteer Clique. At that point maybe I should also have Melira. Would love opinions.
I think my list probably wants a little more instant speed interaction. I'm not sure where my cuts should be to enable this.
It's possible that 3 3cmc accelerators is wrong in this deck, and that Solemn Simulacrum is wrong too. Hell, 37 land might be wrong (although I'd not go below 36 with the new mulligan rule). I'm not sure what changes would be smart.
Grave Titan feels like a waste of space. It's not amazing enough to just win the game, and it's not doing anything this deck really wants to do. I typically find making green mana easier than black and wonder what others think of changing the Titan to something like Greenwarden of Murasa to give myself more chances to re-cast Tooth and Nail against control decks.
Nezumi Graverobber is currently my grave hate of choice. This is because it's a late game mana sink and works with Skullclamp. But it could just as easily be Scooze, and Scooze is a valid Green Sun's Zenith target. I'm not sure which way I should go.
I'm not really sure why I run Pack Rat, this is probably just a stupid inclusion. When would I ever want to cast this in Multiplayer. It made the cut for its ability to discard a fatty and turn on reanimation, but that's probably too cute.
I'd love input from the Jarad Veterans.
On a side note, in the first round of the bounty event I beat a Jarad player who was pretty closely running Raz's list. Shout-out to that player and sorry for not winning the whole thing. I was lucky I managed to get him the turn before he got the rest of us in the pod!
Hey mate, the Jarad player in Round 1 was me. I was glad to see you make it through to the finals, I saw most of the game hanging out with Daniel (the Judge) but had to leave as a pod fired (which I won in short order - turn 2 Void Winnower is a hell of a thing). I did catch up with the Kozilek player who won the bounty event in a very entertaining pod later in the afternoon (I ran a Mizzix deck for a change), so I got a run down from him.
Running a list based on this thread for the weekend served me well overall - went home with an FTV: Angels and a pile of other prizes. I only lost two games with Jarad all weekend, so I was quite happy with most of the pieces in the deck. It's not normally the version I run as my regular playgroups aren't quite on this level. My week-to-week Jarad deck is probably closer to Dtrain's version linked in the primer but with a lot of inclusions based on this thread and Razz's notes on Reddit.
In our game I made an error in assessing your deck and didn't expect the Ooze combo. Flying under the radar with Meren definitely paid off - the Jarad deck was definitely a known quantity to some players. I forgot to ask whether the cardboard deck box an intentional misdirection? Hahahaha.
We had a good chat after the round and compared notes, which was a lot of fun and reminded me I should drop back by this thread to discuss the deck further.
I'll take some more time later to post more about my experiences with the deck and comparisons to your own when I'm not on my phone.
Welcome PsyKnz and Agyar! I hope you guys stick around and continue contributing - the more Jarad (or Meren for that matter) players we have in this thread, the better.
@PsyKnz: Congrats on your wins! Here's what I think about your deck. Let's talk about the obvious: Jarad vs Meren. I prefer Jarad for one reason: consistency. Often, I find, my deck peters out and I have enough resources but nothing to do with them. Jarad provides a solution to this by being a win-condition. Jarad combos with Phyrexian Devourer and potentially Lord of Extinction for an easy win. If I have a fatty out, I can also just fling fatties. On the other hand, Meren gives the deck resilience. She makes it easy to come back from a boardwipe, and is even potentially a reanimation engine. I believe my deck has sufficient resilience and not enough consistency, so I prefer Jarad, but Meren is certainly a viable alternative choice. Being able to T&N for Jarad + Devourer is pretty cool, but this is a non-issue if you have Jarad in play already which you frequently do, or even if he's in the graveyard you can still find Necrotic Ooze and fling Devourer using him.
You are missing the removal package. Against other slow decks, having consistent access to removal is one of this decks' strengths. I think I'm playing twelve pieces in my current list - I see like two in yours. Play more kill spells. You can even use them on your own creatures to re-use ETB effects!
Your land count is frankly a little shocking. I'm at 31, so you're a full six lands ahead of me. I feel like you must flood out a lot. I realize having a lot of mana isn't bad, since we play fatties to reanimate, but this feels a bit excessive to be honest. How good is Gaea's Cradle? I feel like it won't produce mana in your opener often enough to be good, since I typically don't develop a huge boardstate in terms of creatures. Then again, you're playing more dudes than I am. I'm not a fan of ETBT duals like Hissing Quagmire, Gilt-Leaf Palace, and Temple of Malady. I also think Tainted Wood is a trap card - it doesn't produce either color unless you already have one. I would rather have it be a green source. You've got more lands than I do but also many more basic lands, so you should look at my deck, see if there are any duals you are missing that you can afford, and substitute them.
Speaking of basic lands, you're missing Hermit Druid. Druid is pretty important IMO - it's a common tutor target and assembles wins real quick. It also allows me to keep a two-land hand without praying I topdeck another. Hermit Druid isn't great without a reanimate in hand, sure, but it will draw you one pretty quick (especially if you cut down on your number of basics) in the form of Dread Return. There are two problems with Hermit Druid: Firstly, people will think you're a HD combo deck if you play it early and kill it asap. This can be mitigated by fetching a basic ("See, I play basics, Hermit Druid is a fair card") or explaining that you need blue to use HD, but sometimes people don't believe you. Secondly, if you mill too much, you won't have enough left in your library to Necrotic Ooze kill. Thankfully, Druid should be able to save us there by putting a different combo (or Lord of Extinction or whatever) into our yard.
You need Baleful Force and Void Winnower. These are essential to coming out of the gate on top. Having powerful reanimation targets that start putting you ahead on turn two is vital. I do not like Sheoldred, Vorinclex, or (especially I dislike) Sepulchral Primordial. These cards do very little early-game. You need Force and Winnower to have Entomb->Reanimate be truly threatening.
Here is a list of cards that I think you shouldn't be playing: Defense of the Heart - You mentioned this yourself. It's not terrible, and I've played it in the past, it's just a bit slow. You can think of it as "your opponents can't play more than two creatures," which is certainly a powerful effect, but probably not one we want in this deck. I wouldn't play it in random pods. That said, if your meta is filled with creature-based decks that can't answer enchantments, go ahead and try it. Apprentice Necromancer, Doomed Necromancer - These cards also seem slow. For awhile I was playing Corpse Dance, but after the banning of Sylvan Primordial, I want all my reanimation targets (with the exception of Sidisi/RSD) to stick around for awhile. I get that it has synergy with your commander, but I would replace it with a more reliable reanimate that doesn't have summoning sickness. Doomed Necromancer is OK, not great. Apprentice seems too slow to make the cut. Duplicant - What is the rationale here? If you want creature removal on a creature's ETB, I would probably play Kuro, Pitlord. I don't think you need it on top of Sheoldred. I prefer a simple kill spell like Murderous Cut. Fauna Shaman - It's just not Survival of the Fittest. If you're using this to toolbox, it's not bad, but don't expect to assemble Necrotic Ooze combo without being disrupted. Hermit Druid not being in the deck makes Shaman (and creature tutors in general) much less powerful. Grave Titan - You mentioned this one too. Gravy Train does just about nothing - it represents 10 power to Greater Good, but you have to discard nine of those cards if you sac all the tokens, so... eh. We don't care about beatdown nearly enough to justify it. Pack Rat - I have in the past considered Wild Mongrel. This way, if I have a Triskelion in my hand, I can Buried Alive for Ooze, Devourer, and Mongrel, reanimate Ooze, and use Mognrel's ability to discard Trike. I am not playing it right now, but if you want a discard outlet, use one that doesn't require mana. Viridian Emissary - I get what you're going for, but Nature's Lore is miles ahead.
Now, on to your points that I haven't addressed already.
Yes, in Meren the Signet is likely a poor choice. I would play Elves of Deep Shadow. This is in my view actually superior to things like Llanowar Elves, because Llanowar Elves only produces a color you already have at least one of, where EoDS may be your only black source.
I like having the "emergency buttons" in there, but they are notably worse in Meren where you have to play a creature-based landbase. Toxic Deluge is the best sweeper in our colors.
Greater Good is sweet. It enables combos, sure, but also just plain wins games with huge creatures. It's especially powerful with Rune-Scarred Demon, since you can tutor more reanimates out of your deck and continue the draw-6-discard-3 chain (maybe ending the chain with a Living Death if you can), and with Woodfall Primus, since it draws 11 cards and destroys two noncreature permanents for every reanimate in your hand/that you draw.
I play Persist combo for one reason, and that's having a combo in case my Buried Alive gets Shred Memory'd or something equally disappointing. Since Jarad isn't your commander, I imagine you're even hungrier for alternative wins than I am. I would continue to play the combo, considering Mikeaus needs to be in anyway for Mike&Trike and Primus isn't bad at all.
Refer to my list for instant-speed interaction and refer to the cuts above for space. Especially important is Krosan Grip for getting rid of graveyard hate.
I agree that 3CMC accel isn't great. In my view, the point of acceleration is to make one- or two-land hands keepable. Wood Elves & company don't allow this, therefore, they fail one of the main points of acceleration. On the other hand, you're playing more lands than I am, so you don't have many one- or two-land hands, so this doesn't apply to your deck as well as it applies to mine unless you cut your curve. Solemn is certainly too slow for Jarad, though I see why it's tempting with Meren -and with Birthing Pod in the deck? On the other hand, at 4cmc you can just find Mindslicer, so it's probably cuttable.
I prefer either Scavenging Ooze for synergy with Green Sun's Zenith or Faerie Macabre for synergy with Survival of the Fittest (or Fauna Shaman, in your list). This allows you to keep up gravehate without even tutoring for it in advance (since you can just tutor and discard in response to what they're doing). Nezumi Graverobber is playable thanks it its late-game ability, but I don't love it personally.
Thanks for reading! As I said above I encourage you to post in this thread even though we're not running the exact same deck - it's close enough that I think we can collaborate.
@Agyar: It's been awhile since you posted here! I wasn't sure you were still rocking Jarad. Please do post whatever results you had! I'm interested in seeing how your deck did at GP Melbourne. What decklist did you run?
Hey Raz, thanks for all the feedback, I'll definitely take it on board and test some of your ideas, particularly more interaction and different graveyard interaction options.
Just a couple quick points:
I can't take my land count as low as yours (I've tried). Every time I do I find myself taking too many mulligans, particularly with Vancouver mulligans in effect for Commander. My mana costs are also too colour intensive for cards like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt to fix for me. 37 is probably 1 too many, but I'd rather win with a land in my hand than lose because I was 1 short.
Fauna Shaman is less in the deck as a way to get the Ooze combo going, and more as a way to dump in hand fatties while tutoring ramp/Sidisi/reanimation to get to a T&N kill. If I'm taking this route the fatty I always start with is Vorinclex because it both gives you the mana needed to T&N and makes it harder for the table to stop you.
I agree 100% that this list should have an Elves of Deep Shadow and I have one on the way in the mail alongside a Sylvan Library. It should probably have BoP too and shave a land.
I legitimately didn't realise Baleful Force was each upkeep. That makes it a lot more enticing.
Duplicant is in there for 2 reasons - it's very unconditional removal that only misses Hexproof creatures and fits in a Pod chain.
Gaea's Cradle is amazing, never leave home without it. An important land for doing an early T&N. This deck kills with T&N more than it kills with Ooze combo. It pretty much always adds 2 - 3 mana since this deck is intentionally creature focussed to work well with Meren.
Hey Razz, love the work that you do over here + at Reddit. Good stuff friend! Anyways, I'm just curious about a few of your card selections and was wondering if you'd be willing to discuss their merits with me.
First, why no Necrologia? I can understand not wanting to run Ad Nauseam but Necrologia has always struck me as being a "must have" since it's basically just another copy of 'Potence. If you can untap after resolving it then you'll almost always win and since you still get to discard cards as per normal it never eats any of your key revival/combo pieces. I haven't a single Black deck without Necrologia for years and I'm wondering why you don't decide to include it. I very, very rarely lose after resolving it for a reasonable amount since it almost always digs you into Buried Alive/Survival/a tutor + a revival spell and in general it's one of the best "action spells" in the color (in my opinion obviously). When it's bad it's usually because you already spent all of your life drawing cards from Potence/Baleful Force/etc. so even though it's a bad draw some % of the time it usually doesn't matter.
Second, why Liliana Vess? I don't see how a 5 mana Vampiric Tutor can be competitive given that you're not even running the marginal tutors such as Cruel Tutor, Grim Tutor and Beseech the Queen. Imperial Seal is due to budget I'm assuming but you get the idea. I've never seen a Lili naturally ult once in my life (by myself or someone else) as it always requires comboing her with Death Cloud type effects in my experience. Otherwise at best she's a double Vampiric Tutor which, given her CMC, is too slow to actually matter in most instances. She also tends to die after tutoring once since all things being equal people nail 'Walkers over players (unless they can kill someone obviously) and by no means has been a reliable "double tutor" in my experience. Playing both with and against her she tends to be a "one and done" far too frequently in my experience.
Hey Razz, love the work that you do over here + at Reddit. Good stuff friend! Anyways, I'm just curious about a few of your card selections and was wondering if you'd be willing to discuss their merits with me.
First, why no Necrologia? I can understand not wanting to run Ad Nauseam but Necrologia has always struck me as being a "must have" since it's basically just another copy of 'Potence. If you can untap after resolving it then you'll almost always win and since you still get to discard cards as per normal it never eats any of your key revival/combo pieces. I haven't a single Black deck without Necrologia for years and I'm wondering why you don't decide to include it. I very, very rarely lose after resolving it for a reasonable amount since it almost always digs you into Buried Alive/Survival/a tutor + a revival spell and in general it's one of the best "action spells" in the color (in my opinion obviously). When it's bad it's usually because you already spent all of your life drawing cards from Potence/Baleful Force/etc. so even though it's a bad draw some % of the time it usually doesn't matter.
Second, why Liliana Vess? I don't see how a 5 mana Vampiric Tutor can be competitive given that you're not even running the marginal tutors such as Cruel Tutor, Grim Tutor and Beseech the Queen. Imperial Seal is due to budget I'm assuming but you get the idea. I've never seen a Lili naturally ult once in my life (by myself or someone else) as it always requires comboing her with Death Cloud type effects in my experience. Otherwise at best she's a double Vampiric Tutor which, given her CMC, is too slow to actually matter in most instances. She also tends to die after tutoring once since all things being equal people nail 'Walkers over players (unless they can kill someone obviously) and by no means has been a reliable "double tutor" in my experience. Playing both with and against her she tends to be a "one and done" far too frequently in my experience.
Look at the way I play Necropotence. I rarely Necro for more than five, and never over ten. Necrologia isn't great here for a few reasons. First of all, if I Necrologia for a bunch, I could draw Triskelion or Devourer and be unable to go off the next turn (unless I discard them and open myself up to gravehate). Second of all, Necrologia broadcasts "I'm going to win next turn!" to the table. Third of all, I can't go HAM and draw 30 cards, especially in the lategame, since I won't have enough cards to kill with Necrotic Ooze. I also want my draw spells to be cheap, long-term draw spells, so I can use them to keep an otherwise questionable opener. Finally, I already deal myself lots of damage, and Necrologia will either draw me lots of cards in the earlygame, where I can't take full advantage of the amount of cards I just drew and unless I go off fast I will lose to combat, or not-lots of cards in the endgame since my lifetotal is replenished. That said, I will add it to the list of testing cards.
Liliana Vess is good because it presents double-threat. One of the important parts about this deck is that it presents lots of threats, and Lili forces my opponent to deal with the Void Winnower I tutor for a turn after she comes down, only to lose to the Tooth and Nail I cast the turn after that. She's not great, but she's solid enough to make the cut. Out of the tutors you listed, Grim is the only one I would consider (besides Seal, which I will get one day) but I still prefer Lili. For an extra two mana, I get to tutor again! I will usually have blockers for Lili since the deck is so creature-based. Plus, that extra utility of being able to make my opponent discard is nice, and even nicer is being able to discard that Baleful Force stuck in my hand just to Reanimate it.
Priest of Titania is actually absurd and in my view should be in just about every green deck. If two of my opponents play a Manadork, then I can go turn 2 Priest, turn 3 Jarad (who is an Elf himself), turn four Baleful Force. That's a curve. Even if it didn't count my own elves and only counted my opponents', it would be great. Exploration and Burgeoning are unplayable in 31-land decks. Voyaging Satyr is likely the worst ramp spell in the deck and should probably be Carpet of Flowers. I was playing Carpet until the mulligan change, where it got significantly worse, but I'll probably put it back in.
Hey razz. I've been testing new kozilek in my build for a little bit and am wondering your thoughts or if you tested him.
He's been super good with card draw creatures and survival and decent by himself
I cut down to 33 lands if I add him which seems fine for my obsolete deck. ;p
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
It runs similarly to Jarad but gets to more aggressively dig for its combos and plays no basics to fully support Hermit Druid. Overall it's a more spellslinger combo version trading out Jarad's resiliency for speed and countermagic.
Hey razz. I've been testing new kozilek in my build for a little bit and am wondering your thoughts or if you tested him.
He's been super good with card draw creatures and survival and decent by himself
I cut down to 33 lands if I add him which seems fine for my obsolete deck. ;p
I was thinking about playing him. I really wish the draw was an ETB, and I'm not sure there's any time when I would want him over Void Winnower. If you do end up keeping him for good I'll probably test him at some point. I'm still on 31 lands haha but I guess that's why Meren is so much better
I've seen that list, yeah. IIRC it plays a similar shell to Jarad - care to share?
The list for my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck is finally up.
Thread
It runs similarly to Jarad but gets to more aggressively dig for its combos and plays no basics to fully support Hermit Druid. Overall it's a more spellslinger combo version trading out Jarad's resiliency for speed and countermagic.
Nice to see it finally up. Why don't you play the G/B mana package, namely Crop Rotation, Urborg-Coffers, and Tempt with Discovery?
Nice to see it finally up. Why don't you play the G/B mana package, namely Crop Rotation, Urborg-Coffers, and Tempt with Discovery?
Crop Rotation got cut after the mulligan changes to make room for Ponder and friends. I want to find room to put it back in because it is definitely a strong card with powerful packages. I'm considering cutting the Life From the Loam / Crucible of Worlds package so CR will be coming back in soon.
So the reason I don't play Cabal Coffers is that it is so useless without Urborg. I cannot run basic swamps in order to support Hermit Druid so the amount of times Cabal Coffers will be useless is just way too high.
Tempt with Discovery, a very good card is lackluster without Coffers and is expensive for a ramp spell at 4 cmc. I added mana rocks such as Talisman of Dominance and creatures like Bloom Tender because they are faster which is better suited for my meta, and they both can produce mana underneath Blood Moon, which when you run Hermit Druid is a big concern.
I'm glad you have critique for me because as soon as I cannot defend a choice it shows that it needs to be reevaluated.
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Blue in the name, Black in the game. But ALWAYS Lime.
I think Jarad lacks the fast mana combo potential that the card requires to be good. It is a 7 mana sorcery that wins the game on the following turn. I think Jarad will get better use out of the green tutor instead.
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Blue in the name, Black in the game. But ALWAYS Lime.
I'm not sure what to think of the green tutor. In the opener/early game, it finds a basic land. It can colorfix for black, but not for green since it requires green to cast. It guarantees an untapped land on turn two at the cost of eating a mana. Obviously this is pretty bad, but it's not actually dead. It's worth mentioning with Hermit Druid in the hand this isn't bad since it does actually thin the deck of basics. Ultimately this is only really "good" because it makes opening hands more keepable if I'm land-light.
With Delirium online, it's much, much better. In the late-game, it tutors Phyrexian Devourer/Lord of Extinction and is a one-card kill. It's a six-mana reanimate with Phryexian Delver and a six-mana tutor with Sidisi. Other than that, there's not a whole lot of targets I'll want to hit consistently. It's also the second half of Urborg/Coffers, and can find my utility lands (Bojuka Bog/Volrath's Stronghold/Phryexian Tower).
Let's compare it to some of the existing creature tutors. Worldly Tutor is likely much better, because in the opener it means a turn-two Hermit Druid (or Priest of Titania if preferred). On the other hand, with delirium online, this kills the same turn as opposed to a turn later, like when we topdeck Wordly. It's also worth noting this is a sorcery, so if you have exactly eight mana (enough to cast Lord of Extinction + fling it to Jarad) you have to telegraph to your opponents that you're winning the next turn or wait until you draw a land to do it all in one turn. This is also worse than Green Sun's Zenith, whose primary use is to be ramp in the early game, and rarely finds anything other than Lord or Eternal Witness otherwise.
As for the seven-mana tutor, I'm also unsure. One of Jarad's strengths is that we are able to consistently ramp up to cast our fatties and this is definitely a castable spell. It allows us to attempt to win the next turn (Entwine T&N) and the turn after that (Buried Alive -> Reanimate). If we have just BB remaining in our pool, we can even attempt to win that very turn (Mana Crypt, Buried Alive, Reanimate). However, it really declares to the table that I'm going to win. I don't think I will end up using this card but will definitely test it.
Probably too expensive. If you want to reanimate two creatures Victimize would be better most of the time.
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@razzliox: Hey, I'm back after my nearly 6 month hiatus from Magic. I've been tuning my deck up a little more, though I'm still reluctant to include the Necrotic Ooze combo because I tried it before and just didn't have much fun winning with it. The decks in my group have improved with some running infinite combos and MLD, so I think some of my slower combos are more acceptable, but I don't find winning with what basically amounts to a one card combo that can happen on turn 3 or 4 to be super fun in my group. I was planning to run through your list and analyze why each difference from my list might be the case, so that I can come up with a list of cards to ask you about. To start off, why don't you run Mana Vault? Also, while I'm here I'll mention that
EDIT: One more thing. How well have you been getting by with only 31 lands in a post Partial Mulligan world? I'm running at 36 right now and I still get some one and two land hands that I have to mulligan so I can't imagine being comfortable with so few, but then that has always been the case between us.
EDIT 2: Alright here we go. This might be pretty long.
The cards you are running which I am not. A bit of this is probably cover in the OP.
Crypt Ghast - How much mana do you reliably get off this? You only run 6 Swamps so without Urborg it seems like it would usually only be 2 mana or so, in which case there are better options.
Dark Confidant - This guy is great, I just don't have him. You have enough big drops that he is a little risky but probably not enough to outweigh the tremendous upside. I might just run Night's Whisper or something here.
Faerie Macabre - Not a ton of people comboing out of their graveyards in my group so this isn't necessary.
Hermit Druid - You're obviously not comboing with him considering you have 7 basic lands, so he doesn't seem good enough as just some self mill. I guess he mills about 14 cards on average which is a lot, but it doesn't seem that amazing and opens you up to mass graveyard hate.
Priest of Titania - This seems terrible when you only have 3 Elves by count, including Jarad. Any one drop mana dork seems better since this usually only taps for G anyway.
Voyaging Satyr - Once again seems like kind of a weak mana dork. Obviously insane with Urborg + Coffers and he ca make your two mana with Ancient Tomb, but otherwise it seems like you'd be better off with a one drop dork.
Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, Putrefy, Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out - Obviously you run a lot more spot removal than me, while I have most of these spots dedicated to additional mass removal and more lands. I also include Maelstrom Pulse which should maybe be swapped to one of these.
Worldly Tutor - Okay tutor, but top of the deck and only creatures means it's probably not good enough if I'm not finding an infinite combo win with it. I think the previously mentioned spoiler card could fill this spot for me.
Exhume - I run Victimize over this because I have a lot of ways to take advantage of the sacrifice and getting two creatures back at once with some of my synergies.
Praetor's Grasp - What do you usually search for with this? I imagine just like a Sol Ring or Demonic Tutor. I guess it's okay but once again seems somewhat inefficient, and there's a chance it can't get what you want if they've already used it or it's in their hand.
Tempt with Discovery - My group doesn't fall for the tricks you can pull with this card so it ends up being pretty bad for me. I just run Skyshroud Claim instead.
Tooth and Nail - Not really good enough for me when it's not finding infinite combos. I guess I could pick up some value synergies with it, but at 9 mana I don't think it's worth it to me.
Frontier Siege - What has been your experience with this card? On the one hand it seems pretty explosive but it's annoying you have to split your plays up over your two main phases. I imagine you only choose the mana ramp option and it just seems like you could do better.
Pattern of Rebirth - Without Boonweaver combos this doesn't seem all that great. Do you just pull a big creature out with it most of the time? Or is their some other combo that I don't know about?
Too slow. As DTrain mentioned, if I want double-reanimate, I can get that in Wake the Dead or Victimize. I want my reanimates to be good with Buried Alive, meaning they should be live in the early-game.
why so low sac outlets? only with greter good we can sac prims to infinte(and stops as we havent cards in deck)? why deck not run more sac outles?
They just don't do enough. I played Phyrexian Altar for awhile, simply for its combo potential. (Goes infinite with Living Death, Eternal Witness, and five creatures.) I don't have enough ETB or dies triggers to really value them. Maybe now that I'm playing Pattern of Rebirth and Mindslicer, I should re-test it.
Hey, I'm back after my nearly 6 month hiatus from Magic. I've been tuning my deck up a little more, though I'm still reluctant to include the Necrotic Ooze combo because I tried it before and just didn't have much fun winning with it. The decks in my group have improved with some running infinite combos and MLD, so I think some of my slower combos are more acceptable, but I don't find winning with what basically amounts to a one card combo that can happen on turn 3 or 4 to be super fun in my group. I was planning to run through your list and analyze why each difference from my list might be the case, so that I can come up with a list of cards to ask you about. To start off, why don't you run Mana Vault? One more thing. How well have you been getting by with only 31 lands in a post Partial Mulligan world? I'm running at 36 right now and I still get some one and two land hands that I have to mulligan so I can't imagine being comfortable with so few, but then that has always been the case between us.
The cards you are running which I am not. A bit of this is probably cover in the OP.
Crypt Ghast - How much mana do you reliably get off this? You only run 6 Swamps so without Urborg it seems like it would usually only be 2 mana or so, in which case there are better options.
Dark Confidant - This guy is great, I just don't have him. You have enough big drops that he is a little risky but probably not enough to outweigh the tremendous upside. I might just run Night's Whisper or something here.
Faerie Macabre - Not a ton of people comboing out of their graveyards in my group so this isn't necessary.
Hermit Druid - You're obviously not comboing with him considering you have 7 basic lands, so he doesn't seem good enough as just some self mill. I guess he mills about 14 cards on average which is a lot, but it doesn't seem that amazing and opens you up to mass graveyard hate.
Priest of Titania - This seems terrible when you only have 3 Elves by count, including Jarad. Any one drop mana dork seems better since this usually only taps for G anyway.
Voyaging Satyr - Once again seems like kind of a weak mana dork. Obviously insane with Urborg + Coffers and he ca make your two mana with Ancient Tomb, but otherwise it seems like you'd be better off with a one drop dork.
Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, Putrefy, Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out - Obviously you run a lot more spot removal than me, while I have most of these spots dedicated to additional mass removal and more lands. I also include Maelstrom Pulse which should maybe be swapped to one of these.
Worldly Tutor - Okay tutor, but top of the deck and only creatures means it's probably not good enough if I'm not finding an infinite combo win with it. I think the previously mentioned spoiler card could fill this spot for me.
Exhume - I run Victimize over this because I have a lot of ways to take advantage of the sacrifice and getting two creatures back at once with some of my synergies.
Praetor's Grasp - What do you usually search for with this? I imagine just like a Sol Ring or Demonic Tutor. I guess it's okay but once again seems somewhat inefficient, and there's a chance it can't get what you want if they've already used it or it's in their hand.
Tempt with Discovery - My group doesn't fall for the tricks you can pull with this card so it ends up being pretty bad for me. I just run Skyshroud Claim instead.
Tooth and Nail - Not really good enough for me when it's not finding infinite combos. I guess I could pick up some value synergies with it, but at 9 mana I don't think it's worth it to me.
Frontier Siege - What has been your experience with this card? On the one hand it seems pretty explosive but it's annoying you have to split your plays up over your two main phases. I imagine you only choose the mana ramp option and it just seems like you could do better.
Pattern of Rebirth - Without Boonweaver combos this doesn't seem all that great. Do you just pull a big creature out with it most of the time? Or is their some other combo that I don't know about?
Mana Vault sucks. I'd rather play Dark Ritual. Colorless mana isn't particularly super useful, losing a life every turn after that sucks, and I'm not a fast-mana deck.
The life-loss lands are great. I don't really care about my life total, but I do care about colors. I also run a very specific basic count for Hermit Druid, and wouldn't want to play any number that isn't 6 or 7. Having lands that can produce off-color mana is useful for Praetor's Grasp.
Liliana Vess is OK, I agree not great. If I can minus her twice in the lategame I pretty much always win since I can find Void Winnower, run it out, and then Tooth and Nail. VW either eats the Putrefy/Swords/whatever before I untap or they just don't have odd-costed removal. Being able to make myself discard can be good too. Don't play this card in creature metas.
Crypt Ghast gives me at least two mana, making it on par with Skyshroud Claim. Much of the time, it gives me more than that. It's insane if someone has Urborg in play, and since I always fetch black when possible, it's not rare that it's an extra three-four mana. Often much of that mana it makes the turn it comes down. It also gains me life, which can be really important in Necropotence games.
Hermit Druid puts a fatty in my yard and lets me combo with 2-3 generous activations, sometimes it it takes more. This is the sole reason I run Dread Return. Well, Druid and Entomb.
Priest of Titania taps for GG with Jarad out and counts my opponents' elves. It's pretty ridiculous.
Voyaging Satyr is bad and should probably be cut. It's good with Ancient Tomb and obviously Urborg-Coffers. It's also worth noting that it can untap opponents' lands, so I can work with someone else to stop the combo player.
Worldly Tutor allows for turn two Hermit and tutors for Phyrexian Devourer. Since you don't play these cards, don't play Worldly Tutor.
Exhume lets me reanimate without targeting. Reanimate sucks if my opponent has something like Faerie Macabre in hand. Exhume lets me grab something else.
Prateor's Grasp is great. Most of the cards I usually tutor for, someone else will have if there's a black player at the table. Hell, just being a three-mana Mana Crypt is good. It also lets me find Pact of Negation to protect my combo.
Tempt with Discovery is fine, even without the tricks. Being able to find Volrath's Stronghold, Phyexian Tower, etc is just too valuable.
Frontier Siege is great. Mono-green ramp staple. I have literally never chosen the other mode, I don't even know what it does. Something about flying I think?
Pattern of Rebirth is pretty good. I can stick it on a creature, fling it, find Phyrexian Devourer, fling it, gg. I can also just find Void Winnower or Baleful Force and be really ahead.
Hey razz that last post was fantastic for me because I really enjoy hearing your opinion on individual cards even though our opinions differ on certain ones. Which imo is a good thing. We are, after all, different people with different metas. With that being said I would like to discuss my experience with certain cards that you run (which I don't)
I run a total of 6 basics (3 of each) and a total of 5 swamps. 32 lands total. Crypt ghast just doesn't have enough oomph for me. I understand his interaction with urborg but I just feel like we could be doing something more with his slot. However I find my comment ironic because I run voriclex as a bomb. (Which you and I have discussed as well) I feel that koko and scooze are sufficient enough for life gain.
I tried out tempt on your suggestion and at first I really liked it. People would take the tempt and all was dandy. However, I've since cut it because my main playgroup wised up. If I cast it now they will all grab strip mine or bojuka bog it's ilk. I cut it when my two opponents "colluded" and with bog ability on the stack took out my urbog. Ouch.
I agree with you assessment on voyaging satyr.
But I also do not like priest of titania. I run natural order and I still don't like her. She's a two mana dork that very rarely produces more than one mana. I However do not have a dork deck in my meta and could see her warrant if I did.
I want to test pattern of rebirth (probably over natural order) but I'm worried about not only getting countered but getting blown out by removal or just not having a sac outlet (which I believe I play more than you do) but i like the versatility it could potentially offer me (not just green creatures) could you elaborate more on it for me?
Frontier seige was rather meh to me. Not terrible but not too exciting. I prefer land based mana so i run life from the loam or crucible probably over it.
Hopefully my input can help others that may have similar experiences.
Thank you for hearing me out and gratz on the mod status of r/edh. (Sorry about the formatting or grammar, I'm on a *****ty mobile)
Hey Redvenom. If you're playing Koko and Scooze, you're probably right in that the lifegain from Crypt Ghast isn't enough to justify it over more traditional ramp spells. I prefer Faerie Macabre to Scooze since you can use it at instant speed with a Survival of the Fittest in play, and after much testing I don't think Kokusho is needed in the deck. But if you're making different decisions there, Crypt Ghast probably isn't needed. I'd still test it if I were you though.
Even when your playgroup knows the tricks you can pull with Tempt, I still like it to accentuate the land toolbox. You can find Ancient Tomb if you want straight ramp, Volrath's Stronghold if you need recursion, Bojuka Bog if you're in the mirror, Strip Mine if you need LD, complete your Urborg/Coffers package, etc etc.
Priest of Titania is honestly very good even without other dorks. Just being able to play the curve well (turn 2 Priest, turn 3 Jarad is a ramp spell) is very good. If you're playing lots of other dorks, she's even better.
Pattern of Rebirth is very good because it can grab Phyrexian Devourer. Being able to cast it in the lategame, sacrifice my dude to Jarad, and then fling *again* is just so good.
Frontier Siege is ridiculous. I really advise you to test it again. I think Life and Crucible are too slow, but maybe are better in a slightly different build.
I've been thinking of testing Mirri's Guile. Thoughts?
I'm not a fan of Mirri's Guile. Not long ago you weren't even running Sensei's Divining Top, which is a much stronger card in my opinion. We also already have Sylvan Library which puts this card to shame, albeit for one extra mana. The problem for me is that you only get to use it during your upkeep, and it can't really do anything to give you additional advantages like Library's ability to draw extra cards or Top's ability to draw something for you at instant speed.
I'm going to second Frontier Siege. If you build your deck right, you shouldn't have problems spending the 4 mana it gives you every turn, and it even gives two of it back immediately.
I'm just sad that this build can't take advantage of the great frog overlord....
I guess Mirri's Guile can be worth it with enough shuffle effects. It's like top except without the (very important) second ability but you get to shave a mana of activation cost every now and then.
Thanks for the reply razz. So I've been testing the frog and it is absolutely insane! The amount of card draw it gives me is asinine. I think it is more suited to the grindy long game but it can quickly fill up our graveyard even with so few lands. I know you have been testing him as the head of his own deck over on competitive edh but I think he has found a permanent home here in my 99. I have also really love traverse the ulvanwald so far because we can quickly fill up out yard. Here is my updated list http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jarad-golgari-graveyard-combo-1/
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The one card I'm kind of hesitant to pick up is Lord of Extinction. I mean, I could be picking up Thoughtseizes or other cards that are objectively good for the same cost. I have no problem springing for pretty much everything else, because on the very realistic chance that I tear the deck down eventually (EDHD), I'll be able to play the other cards elsewhere, easily. In the case that I don't get one, I was also considering changing the Commander to Meren of Clan Nel Toth. I know you probably consider this a downgrade (otherwise, you'd have made the change yourself), but do you think this is a bad idea or a really bad idea? If you were heading the deck with Meren, is there anything you'd be sure to include that isn't in the list currently?
As to specific cards in the list that I was thinking of potentially changing around...
Liliana Vess? I've never been very impressed by a 5-mana, top of library, sorcery-speed tutor.
Faerie Macabre is great for being free, but I like Shred Memory a whole lot as target GY hate.
Priest of Titania makes [2] with Jarad out, but... even if I wasn't changing the Commander, I might still be skeptical. I mean, without playing an Elf in the Command zone, it's definitely coming out, but how great is it in your deck?
Voyaging Saytr. Is the synergy with Coffers strong enough to be playing a 2-mana mana dork?
Frontier Siege. I'm guessing you go for mana mode most often. Is the jump from 4 to 7 really important to the deck?
Depending on how essential these cards are, I might swap them around as a personal preference sort of thing. Just making sure there isn't something huge I'm missing.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Haha thanks benbear. I really want to play with you on Cockatrice sometime because that deck sounds awesome.
I really like Snuff Out; Slaughter Pact is cuttable. Having a zero-mana kill spell is so good, since you can tutor for it in mana-constrained lines to kill hatebears, but Slaughter Pact is disappointing a lot of the time. Murderous Cut is pretty good in Jarad and better with Tas as your commander. Death Cloud is probably only good if you can reliably make lots of mana, but in a Tas deck, that should be a goal.
I do want to try it but don't feel that Koz will be great. In a blue deck, probably worse since you already have counterspells.
Hey Darcykun! If your life goal is fighting blue players, this deck is for you. Your blue control matchups are great, and it's a blast to play.
Lord of Extinction isn't necessary at all. It's a nice addition and if you do commit to the deck I suggest you pick it up at some point but honestly it doesn't come up that often. The only reason I play it is to make Green Sun's Zenith (and Natural Order, when it's in the list) a win in the late-game. I definitely prefer Jarad to Meren, but I encourage you to test it. I've been wrong before. The main reason Jarad is good is because he kills with Phyrexian Devourer, which justifies the Necrotic Ooze combo since the namesake card is the only one that doesn't combo outside of that one. Go ahead and make the switch and see what happens!
All the cards you listed are definitely cuttable. I really like Lili Vess - tutor twice for five mana? Also potential build-your-own Entomb if you tutor and then discard targeting yourself. But none of those cards are core in any way. Priest of Titania is definitely a card that I would play in Meren, simply because I feel like Meren has synergy with creature-based ramp and you'll be playing a lot of elves.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Last weekend I attended GP Melbourne. After getting brutally molested in Modern by maindeck Ghostly Prisons and maindeck Worship while playing Fish I decided to spend the rest of my Saturday and Sunday playing Commander. I've run my deck at the local store a few times and hadn't yet lost so I went into the games pretty confident I'd do well. I played two casual 4 man pods winning both, and then a Commander bounty event where I got to the finals and was beaten by my opponents ganging up on me. They knew how my deck played having heard how I'd won other games and knew I was the #1 threat at the table.
The deck isn't Jarad, but instead Meren. The Meren Pre-con was the first Commander I'd ever pickled up and as I started to play with her I realised I wanted to abuse the combo synergies in G/B. I don't like long drawn out games so I wanted to be able to close games quickly. I also wanted to be able to take my deck to an event and beat other degenerate Commanders. While working to improve the Meren deck I stumbled upon this primer and realised almost the exact same strategy was the right direction to take Meren. Below you can find the list I ran through the event, which is close to finished but still requires tweaking:
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Land (37)
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Swamp
7 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Strip Mine
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Temple of Malady
1 Tainted Wood
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Gilt-Leaf Palace
Artifact (4)
1 Birthing Pod
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Golgari Signet
1 Animate Dead
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Greater Good
1 Necromancy
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Evolutionary Leap
Sorcery (12)
1 Buried Alive
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dread Return
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life // Death
1 Living Death
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reanimate
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Victimize
Instant (4)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Chord of Calling
Creature (33)
1 Apprentice Necromancer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Doomed Necromancer
1 Duplicant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Grave Titan
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Mindslicer
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Pack Rat
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sepulchural Primordial
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Triskelion
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Viridian Emissary
1 Viscera Seer
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Wood Elves
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Yavimaya Dryad
The primary game plan with the deck is to pull off a Necrotic Ooze combo, Mike + Trike combo, Jarad combo, or Woodfall + Mikaeus combo. If your opponents successfully keep you off of the combos you can use your commander and the Praetors to pursue a win instead.
So I'll start by explaining the biggest Difference - Why Meren over Jarad?
There are a few reasons for Meren being my Commander. The first and most important reason is that I want the ability to Tooth and Nail for Jarad + Phyrexian Devourer against opponents that have open mana. It doesn't take much to break apart the Mike + Trike combo, but the Jarad + Devourer combo is near impossible to interact with. The second reason is that Jarad is only really good when I'm ready to win, but Meren can help loop early creatures like Sakura-Tribe Elder and ensure you're actually able to go off. The third is that Meren is a reanimation spell letting you get back win cons like Necrotic Ooze against opponents ready with removal. The last is that Meren is an amazing way to grind out opponents if most of your kills have been stopped. She's even more insane after a Mindslicer strips everyone's hands.
There are a number of cards that I'm not sure about in this list:
On a side note, in the first round of the bounty event I beat a Jarad player who was pretty closely running Raz's list. Shout-out to that player and sorry for not winning the whole thing. I was lucky I managed to get him the turn before he got the rest of us in the pod!
Running a list based on this thread for the weekend served me well overall - went home with an FTV: Angels and a pile of other prizes. I only lost two games with Jarad all weekend, so I was quite happy with most of the pieces in the deck. It's not normally the version I run as my regular playgroups aren't quite on this level. My week-to-week Jarad deck is probably closer to Dtrain's version linked in the primer but with a lot of inclusions based on this thread and Razz's notes on Reddit.
In our game I made an error in assessing your deck and didn't expect the Ooze combo. Flying under the radar with Meren definitely paid off - the Jarad deck was definitely a known quantity to some players. I forgot to ask whether the cardboard deck box an intentional misdirection? Hahahaha.
We had a good chat after the round and compared notes, which was a lot of fun and reminded me I should drop back by this thread to discuss the deck further.
I'll take some more time later to post more about my experiences with the deck and comparisons to your own when I'm not on my phone.
@PsyKnz: Congrats on your wins! Here's what I think about your deck. Let's talk about the obvious: Jarad vs Meren. I prefer Jarad for one reason: consistency. Often, I find, my deck peters out and I have enough resources but nothing to do with them. Jarad provides a solution to this by being a win-condition. Jarad combos with Phyrexian Devourer and potentially Lord of Extinction for an easy win. If I have a fatty out, I can also just fling fatties. On the other hand, Meren gives the deck resilience. She makes it easy to come back from a boardwipe, and is even potentially a reanimation engine. I believe my deck has sufficient resilience and not enough consistency, so I prefer Jarad, but Meren is certainly a viable alternative choice. Being able to T&N for Jarad + Devourer is pretty cool, but this is a non-issue if you have Jarad in play already which you frequently do, or even if he's in the graveyard you can still find Necrotic Ooze and fling Devourer using him.
You are missing the removal package. Against other slow decks, having consistent access to removal is one of this decks' strengths. I think I'm playing twelve pieces in my current list - I see like two in yours. Play more kill spells. You can even use them on your own creatures to re-use ETB effects!
Your land count is frankly a little shocking. I'm at 31, so you're a full six lands ahead of me. I feel like you must flood out a lot. I realize having a lot of mana isn't bad, since we play fatties to reanimate, but this feels a bit excessive to be honest. How good is Gaea's Cradle? I feel like it won't produce mana in your opener often enough to be good, since I typically don't develop a huge boardstate in terms of creatures. Then again, you're playing more dudes than I am. I'm not a fan of ETBT duals like Hissing Quagmire, Gilt-Leaf Palace, and Temple of Malady. I also think Tainted Wood is a trap card - it doesn't produce either color unless you already have one. I would rather have it be a green source. You've got more lands than I do but also many more basic lands, so you should look at my deck, see if there are any duals you are missing that you can afford, and substitute them.
Speaking of basic lands, you're missing Hermit Druid. Druid is pretty important IMO - it's a common tutor target and assembles wins real quick. It also allows me to keep a two-land hand without praying I topdeck another. Hermit Druid isn't great without a reanimate in hand, sure, but it will draw you one pretty quick (especially if you cut down on your number of basics) in the form of Dread Return. There are two problems with Hermit Druid: Firstly, people will think you're a HD combo deck if you play it early and kill it asap. This can be mitigated by fetching a basic ("See, I play basics, Hermit Druid is a fair card") or explaining that you need blue to use HD, but sometimes people don't believe you. Secondly, if you mill too much, you won't have enough left in your library to Necrotic Ooze kill. Thankfully, Druid should be able to save us there by putting a different combo (or Lord of Extinction or whatever) into our yard.
You need Baleful Force and Void Winnower. These are essential to coming out of the gate on top. Having powerful reanimation targets that start putting you ahead on turn two is vital. I do not like Sheoldred, Vorinclex, or (especially I dislike) Sepulchral Primordial. These cards do very little early-game. You need Force and Winnower to have Entomb->Reanimate be truly threatening.
Here is a list of cards that I think you shouldn't be playing:
Defense of the Heart - You mentioned this yourself. It's not terrible, and I've played it in the past, it's just a bit slow. You can think of it as "your opponents can't play more than two creatures," which is certainly a powerful effect, but probably not one we want in this deck. I wouldn't play it in random pods. That said, if your meta is filled with creature-based decks that can't answer enchantments, go ahead and try it.
Apprentice Necromancer, Doomed Necromancer - These cards also seem slow. For awhile I was playing Corpse Dance, but after the banning of Sylvan Primordial, I want all my reanimation targets (with the exception of Sidisi/RSD) to stick around for awhile. I get that it has synergy with your commander, but I would replace it with a more reliable reanimate that doesn't have summoning sickness. Doomed Necromancer is OK, not great. Apprentice seems too slow to make the cut.
Duplicant - What is the rationale here? If you want creature removal on a creature's ETB, I would probably play Kuro, Pitlord. I don't think you need it on top of Sheoldred. I prefer a simple kill spell like Murderous Cut.
Fauna Shaman - It's just not Survival of the Fittest. If you're using this to toolbox, it's not bad, but don't expect to assemble Necrotic Ooze combo without being disrupted. Hermit Druid not being in the deck makes Shaman (and creature tutors in general) much less powerful.
Grave Titan - You mentioned this one too. Gravy Train does just about nothing - it represents 10 power to Greater Good, but you have to discard nine of those cards if you sac all the tokens, so... eh. We don't care about beatdown nearly enough to justify it.
Pack Rat - I have in the past considered Wild Mongrel. This way, if I have a Triskelion in my hand, I can Buried Alive for Ooze, Devourer, and Mongrel, reanimate Ooze, and use Mognrel's ability to discard Trike. I am not playing it right now, but if you want a discard outlet, use one that doesn't require mana.
Viridian Emissary - I get what you're going for, but Nature's Lore is miles ahead.
Now, on to your points that I haven't addressed already.
@Agyar: It's been awhile since you posted here! I wasn't sure you were still rocking Jarad. Please do post whatever results you had! I'm interested in seeing how your deck did at GP Melbourne. What decklist did you run?
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Just a couple quick points:
First, why no Necrologia? I can understand not wanting to run Ad Nauseam but Necrologia has always struck me as being a "must have" since it's basically just another copy of 'Potence. If you can untap after resolving it then you'll almost always win and since you still get to discard cards as per normal it never eats any of your key revival/combo pieces. I haven't a single Black deck without Necrologia for years and I'm wondering why you don't decide to include it. I very, very rarely lose after resolving it for a reasonable amount since it almost always digs you into Buried Alive/Survival/a tutor + a revival spell and in general it's one of the best "action spells" in the color (in my opinion obviously). When it's bad it's usually because you already spent all of your life drawing cards from Potence/Baleful Force/etc. so even though it's a bad draw some % of the time it usually doesn't matter.
Second, why Liliana Vess? I don't see how a 5 mana Vampiric Tutor can be competitive given that you're not even running the marginal tutors such as Cruel Tutor, Grim Tutor and Beseech the Queen. Imperial Seal is due to budget I'm assuming but you get the idea. I've never seen a Lili naturally ult once in my life (by myself or someone else) as it always requires comboing her with Death Cloud type effects in my experience. Otherwise at best she's a double Vampiric Tutor which, given her CMC, is too slow to actually matter in most instances. She also tends to die after tutoring once since all things being equal people nail 'Walkers over players (unless they can kill someone obviously) and by no means has been a reliable "double tutor" in my experience. Playing both with and against her she tends to be a "one and done" far too frequently in my experience.
Lastly, would you be willing to explain your ramp package? On the one hand you have Priest of Titania but you don't have any of the 1 CMC Elves other than DRS. No Utopia Sprawl, no Carpet of Flowers, no Exploration, no Burgeoning, not even the marginal stuff like Wild Growth and Elvish Mystic. Still, you have Voyaging Satyr (but no Utopia sprawl/Wild Growth?), Three Visits and Priest of Titania and other marginal ramp spells (Titania isn't marginal if you have more 1 CMC Elves but you don't) so I'm just trying to understand why you've chosen these over (what I consider to be) significantly more powerful alternatives.
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Look at the way I play Necropotence. I rarely Necro for more than five, and never over ten. Necrologia isn't great here for a few reasons. First of all, if I Necrologia for a bunch, I could draw Triskelion or Devourer and be unable to go off the next turn (unless I discard them and open myself up to gravehate). Second of all, Necrologia broadcasts "I'm going to win next turn!" to the table. Third of all, I can't go HAM and draw 30 cards, especially in the lategame, since I won't have enough cards to kill with Necrotic Ooze. I also want my draw spells to be cheap, long-term draw spells, so I can use them to keep an otherwise questionable opener. Finally, I already deal myself lots of damage, and Necrologia will either draw me lots of cards in the earlygame, where I can't take full advantage of the amount of cards I just drew and unless I go off fast I will lose to combat, or not-lots of cards in the endgame since my lifetotal is replenished. That said, I will add it to the list of testing cards.
Liliana Vess is good because it presents double-threat. One of the important parts about this deck is that it presents lots of threats, and Lili forces my opponent to deal with the Void Winnower I tutor for a turn after she comes down, only to lose to the Tooth and Nail I cast the turn after that. She's not great, but she's solid enough to make the cut. Out of the tutors you listed, Grim is the only one I would consider (besides Seal, which I will get one day) but I still prefer Lili. For an extra two mana, I get to tutor again! I will usually have blockers for Lili since the deck is so creature-based. Plus, that extra utility of being able to make my opponent discard is nice, and even nicer is being able to discard that Baleful Force stuck in my hand just to Reanimate it.
Priest of Titania is actually absurd and in my view should be in just about every green deck. If two of my opponents play a Manadork, then I can go turn 2 Priest, turn 3 Jarad (who is an Elf himself), turn four Baleful Force. That's a curve. Even if it didn't count my own elves and only counted my opponents', it would be great. Exploration and Burgeoning are unplayable in 31-land decks. Voyaging Satyr is likely the worst ramp spell in the deck and should probably be Carpet of Flowers. I was playing Carpet until the mulligan change, where it got significantly worse, but I'll probably put it back in.
Do you play the deck? May I see your list if so?
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He's been super good with card draw creatures and survival and decent by himself
I cut down to 33 lands if I add him which seems fine for my obsolete deck. ;p
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The list for my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck is finally up.
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It runs similarly to Jarad but gets to more aggressively dig for its combos and plays no basics to fully support Hermit Druid. Overall it's a more spellslinger combo version trading out Jarad's resiliency for speed and countermagic.
[Primer WIP] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Hermit Druid Combo
I was thinking about playing him. I really wish the draw was an ETB, and I'm not sure there's any time when I would want him over Void Winnower. If you do end up keeping him for good I'll probably test him at some point. I'm still on 31 lands haha but I guess that's why Meren is so much better
Nice to see it finally up. Why don't you play the G/B mana package, namely Crop Rotation, Urborg-Coffers, and Tempt with Discovery?
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Crop Rotation got cut after the mulligan changes to make room for Ponder and friends. I want to find room to put it back in because it is definitely a strong card with powerful packages. I'm considering cutting the Life From the Loam / Crucible of Worlds package so CR will be coming back in soon.
So the reason I don't play Cabal Coffers is that it is so useless without Urborg. I cannot run basic swamps in order to support Hermit Druid so the amount of times Cabal Coffers will be useless is just way too high.
Tempt with Discovery, a very good card is lackluster without Coffers and is expensive for a ramp spell at 4 cmc. I added mana rocks such as Talisman of Dominance and creatures like Bloom Tender because they are faster which is better suited for my meta, and they both can produce mana underneath Blood Moon, which when you run Hermit Druid is a big concern.
I'm glad you have critique for me because as soon as I cannot defend a choice it shows that it needs to be reevaluated.
[Primer WIP] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Hermit Druid Combo
What do you guys think?
[Primer WIP] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Hermit Druid Combo
I'm not sure what to think of the green tutor. In the opener/early game, it finds a basic land. It can colorfix for black, but not for green since it requires green to cast. It guarantees an untapped land on turn two at the cost of eating a mana. Obviously this is pretty bad, but it's not actually dead. It's worth mentioning with Hermit Druid in the hand this isn't bad since it does actually thin the deck of basics. Ultimately this is only really "good" because it makes opening hands more keepable if I'm land-light.
With Delirium online, it's much, much better. In the late-game, it tutors Phyrexian Devourer/Lord of Extinction and is a one-card kill. It's a six-mana reanimate with Phryexian Delver and a six-mana tutor with Sidisi. Other than that, there's not a whole lot of targets I'll want to hit consistently. It's also the second half of Urborg/Coffers, and can find my utility lands (Bojuka Bog/Volrath's Stronghold/Phryexian Tower).
Let's compare it to some of the existing creature tutors. Worldly Tutor is likely much better, because in the opener it means a turn-two Hermit Druid (or Priest of Titania if preferred). On the other hand, with delirium online, this kills the same turn as opposed to a turn later, like when we topdeck Wordly. It's also worth noting this is a sorcery, so if you have exactly eight mana (enough to cast Lord of Extinction + fling it to Jarad) you have to telegraph to your opponents that you're winning the next turn or wait until you draw a land to do it all in one turn. This is also worse than Green Sun's Zenith, whose primary use is to be ramp in the early game, and rarely finds anything other than Lord or Eternal Witness otherwise.
As for the seven-mana tutor, I'm also unsure. One of Jarad's strengths is that we are able to consistently ramp up to cast our fatties and this is definitely a castable spell. It allows us to attempt to win the next turn (Entwine T&N) and the turn after that (Buried Alive -> Reanimate). If we have just BB remaining in our pool, we can even attempt to win that very turn (Mana Crypt, Buried Alive, Reanimate). However, it really declares to the table that I'm going to win. I don't think I will end up using this card but will definitely test it.
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@razzliox: Hey, I'm back after my nearly 6 month hiatus from Magic. I've been tuning my deck up a little more, though I'm still reluctant to include the Necrotic Ooze combo because I tried it before and just didn't have much fun winning with it. The decks in my group have improved with some running infinite combos and MLD, so I think some of my slower combos are more acceptable, but I don't find winning with what basically amounts to a one card combo that can happen on turn 3 or 4 to be super fun in my group. I was planning to run through your list and analyze why each difference from my list might be the case, so that I can come up with a list of cards to ask you about. To start off, why don't you run Mana Vault? Also, while I'm here I'll mention that
EDIT: One more thing. How well have you been getting by with only 31 lands in a post Partial Mulligan world? I'm running at 36 right now and I still get some one and two land hands that I have to mulligan so I can't imagine being comfortable with so few, but then that has always been the case between us.
EDIT 2: Alright here we go. This might be pretty long.
The cards you are running which I am not. A bit of this is probably cover in the OP.
City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Tarnished Citadel - I run some alternative mana fixing lands like Reflecting Pool and Tainted Wood that don't do as much damage to myself since I already take a lot. Thinking about adding Mana Confluence in though.
Chrome Mox - I'm not trying to go off turn 3 or 4 so it doesn't make sense for me to include this.
Liliana Vess - Seems really slow for a tutor. In my group she would only go off once so a Dark Petition or Increasing Ambition would be better for me.
Crypt Ghast - How much mana do you reliably get off this? You only run 6 Swamps so without Urborg it seems like it would usually only be 2 mana or so, in which case there are better options.
Dark Confidant - This guy is great, I just don't have him. You have enough big drops that he is a little risky but probably not enough to outweigh the tremendous upside. I might just run Night's Whisper or something here.
Faerie Macabre - Not a ton of people comboing out of their graveyards in my group so this isn't necessary.
Hermit Druid - You're obviously not comboing with him considering you have 7 basic lands, so he doesn't seem good enough as just some self mill. I guess he mills about 14 cards on average which is a lot, but it doesn't seem that amazing and opens you up to mass graveyard hate.
Necrotic Ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, Triskelion - Not interested in using these combos
Priest of Titania - This seems terrible when you only have 3 Elves by count, including Jarad. Any one drop mana dork seems better since this usually only taps for G anyway.
Voyaging Satyr - Once again seems like kind of a weak mana dork. Obviously insane with Urborg + Coffers and he ca make your two mana with Ancient Tomb, but otherwise it seems like you'd be better off with a one drop dork.
Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, Putrefy, Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out - Obviously you run a lot more spot removal than me, while I have most of these spots dedicated to additional mass removal and more lands. I also include Maelstrom Pulse which should maybe be swapped to one of these.
Worldly Tutor - Okay tutor, but top of the deck and only creatures means it's probably not good enough if I'm not finding an infinite combo win with it. I think the previously mentioned spoiler card could fill this spot for me.
Exhume - I run Victimize over this because I have a lot of ways to take advantage of the sacrifice and getting two creatures back at once with some of my synergies.
Praetor's Grasp - What do you usually search for with this? I imagine just like a Sol Ring or Demonic Tutor. I guess it's okay but once again seems somewhat inefficient, and there's a chance it can't get what you want if they've already used it or it's in their hand.
Tempt with Discovery - My group doesn't fall for the tricks you can pull with this card so it ends up being pretty bad for me. I just run Skyshroud Claim instead.
Tooth and Nail - Not really good enough for me when it's not finding infinite combos. I guess I could pick up some value synergies with it, but at 9 mana I don't think it's worth it to me.
Frontier Siege - What has been your experience with this card? On the one hand it seems pretty explosive but it's annoying you have to split your plays up over your two main phases. I imagine you only choose the mana ramp option and it just seems like you could do better.
Pattern of Rebirth - Without Boonweaver combos this doesn't seem all that great. Do you just pull a big creature out with it most of the time? Or is their some other combo that I don't know about?
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Too slow. As DTrain mentioned, if I want double-reanimate, I can get that in Wake the Dead or Victimize. I want my reanimates to be good with Buried Alive, meaning they should be live in the early-game.
They just don't do enough. I played Phyrexian Altar for awhile, simply for its combo potential. (Goes infinite with Living Death, Eternal Witness, and five creatures.) I don't have enough ETB or dies triggers to really value them. Maybe now that I'm playing Pattern of Rebirth and Mindslicer, I should re-test it.
Mana Vault sucks. I'd rather play Dark Ritual. Colorless mana isn't particularly super useful, losing a life every turn after that sucks, and I'm not a fast-mana deck.
The life-loss lands are great. I don't really care about my life total, but I do care about colors. I also run a very specific basic count for Hermit Druid, and wouldn't want to play any number that isn't 6 or 7. Having lands that can produce off-color mana is useful for Praetor's Grasp.
Liliana Vess is OK, I agree not great. If I can minus her twice in the lategame I pretty much always win since I can find Void Winnower, run it out, and then Tooth and Nail. VW either eats the Putrefy/Swords/whatever before I untap or they just don't have odd-costed removal. Being able to make myself discard can be good too. Don't play this card in creature metas.
Crypt Ghast gives me at least two mana, making it on par with Skyshroud Claim. Much of the time, it gives me more than that. It's insane if someone has Urborg in play, and since I always fetch black when possible, it's not rare that it's an extra three-four mana. Often much of that mana it makes the turn it comes down. It also gains me life, which can be really important in Necropotence games.
Hermit Druid puts a fatty in my yard and lets me combo with 2-3 generous activations, sometimes it it takes more. This is the sole reason I run Dread Return. Well, Druid and Entomb.
Priest of Titania taps for GG with Jarad out and counts my opponents' elves. It's pretty ridiculous.
Voyaging Satyr is bad and should probably be cut. It's good with Ancient Tomb and obviously Urborg-Coffers. It's also worth noting that it can untap opponents' lands, so I can work with someone else to stop the combo player.
Worldly Tutor allows for turn two Hermit and tutors for Phyrexian Devourer. Since you don't play these cards, don't play Worldly Tutor.
Exhume lets me reanimate without targeting. Reanimate sucks if my opponent has something like Faerie Macabre in hand. Exhume lets me grab something else.
Prateor's Grasp is great. Most of the cards I usually tutor for, someone else will have if there's a black player at the table. Hell, just being a three-mana Mana Crypt is good. It also lets me find Pact of Negation to protect my combo.
Tempt with Discovery is fine, even without the tricks. Being able to find Volrath's Stronghold, Phyexian Tower, etc is just too valuable.
Frontier Siege is great. Mono-green ramp staple. I have literally never chosen the other mode, I don't even know what it does. Something about flying I think?
Pattern of Rebirth is pretty good. I can stick it on a creature, fling it, find Phyrexian Devourer, fling it, gg. I can also just find Void Winnower or Baleful Force and be really ahead.
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I run a total of 6 basics (3 of each) and a total of 5 swamps. 32 lands total. Crypt ghast just doesn't have enough oomph for me. I understand his interaction with urborg but I just feel like we could be doing something more with his slot. However I find my comment ironic because I run voriclex as a bomb. (Which you and I have discussed as well) I feel that koko and scooze are sufficient enough for life gain.
I tried out tempt on your suggestion and at first I really liked it. People would take the tempt and all was dandy. However, I've since cut it because my main playgroup wised up. If I cast it now they will all grab strip mine or bojuka bog it's ilk. I cut it when my two opponents "colluded" and with bog ability on the stack took out my urbog. Ouch.
I agree with you assessment on voyaging satyr.
But I also do not like priest of titania. I run natural order and I still don't like her. She's a two mana dork that very rarely produces more than one mana. I However do not have a dork deck in my meta and could see her warrant if I did.
I want to test pattern of rebirth (probably over natural order) but I'm worried about not only getting countered but getting blown out by removal or just not having a sac outlet (which I believe I play more than you do) but i like the versatility it could potentially offer me (not just green creatures) could you elaborate more on it for me?
Frontier seige was rather meh to me. Not terrible but not too exciting. I prefer land based mana so i run life from the loam or crucible probably over it.
Hopefully my input can help others that may have similar experiences.
Thank you for hearing me out and gratz on the mod status of r/edh. (Sorry about the formatting or grammar, I'm on a *****ty mobile)
Even when your playgroup knows the tricks you can pull with Tempt, I still like it to accentuate the land toolbox. You can find Ancient Tomb if you want straight ramp, Volrath's Stronghold if you need recursion, Bojuka Bog if you're in the mirror, Strip Mine if you need LD, complete your Urborg/Coffers package, etc etc.
Priest of Titania is honestly very good even without other dorks. Just being able to play the curve well (turn 2 Priest, turn 3 Jarad is a ramp spell) is very good. If you're playing lots of other dorks, she's even better.
Pattern of Rebirth is very good because it can grab Phyrexian Devourer. Being able to cast it in the lategame, sacrifice my dude to Jarad, and then fling *again* is just so good.
Frontier Siege is ridiculous. I really advise you to test it again. I think Life and Crucible are too slow, but maybe are better in a slightly different build.
I've been thinking of testing Mirri's Guile. Thoughts?
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Sidisi ANT!
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Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I'm just sad that this build can't take advantage of the great frog overlord....
I guess Mirri's Guile can be worth it with enough shuffle effects. It's like top except without the (very important) second ability but you get to shave a mana of activation cost every now and then.
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