Not having read your Primer nor inclined to, I would pick Trike as my Extract target. I'd fire Extract at any quick hitting combo deck sitting across from me, blue or not blue. I don't believe your list can win consistently sitting across from 3-tuned control combo lists running heavy blue control. It's a one trick pony without the power to force its combos through disruption. When people know how you are going to get there, they also know how to stop you. While they can stop you, it's one-sided. You can't stop their broken plays. That's a serious handicap. Having said that, againt more durdly lists, say Bant creature based control, which runs only a smattering of control elements, your odds are a lot better. You have enough graveyard recursion to get one of your combos through by the mid-game while they just don't have enough disruption or removal to stop you. While you also have enough creature hate to slow them down. An example of a high end control list which would give you fits is Testmonkey's Zur list. Its been posted up somewhere around here and on reddit. If you don't believe me, have a buddy sleeve it up and try going against it heads up for a few games.
Sorry, but your analysis is pretty poor. My deck is very much not a one-trick pony and is specifically designed to be a multi-trick pony. As I said earlier, my best matchups are control decks that try to stop me from going off, because I can go off over and over and over. Again, I play against high-end control decks in my meta, which is specifically what the deck is made to do. I don't mean to be rude, but if you really want to learn about the deck, read the primer, a post designed to help users in your position.
Also the Extract target is just totally wrong, I'm sorry but Trike is just worse in 80% of my matchups. If you really want to hinder me, hit Devourer or maybe Mike.
also Razz, in the early game when you use Survival, do you usually drop survival and go off right then? Or do you drop it, wait till next turn, then go off?
It really depends, but usually I'll play it on turn two and then hold it up a few turns. In a pod where my opponents aren't aware that Survival represents a one-card win for me, I'll play some "fair magic" with it before winning.
Also guys please stay on topic. This thread is pretty productive and I'd like it to stay that way.
My other question is after some playtesting on tappedout I find that I fizzle quite easily with druid. Like I'll put ~15 cards in the yard, most of them spells and like 2 creatures. next turn its mostly the same. how does druid usually work for you?
Looking over your list I feel like Gilded Lotus is the weakest card in the deck. I've always felt that this particular Lotus is just way better when it's supplemented by LOTS of other fast mana, particularly more artifacts than you're running. Do you really think its deserving of its slot? If yes, have you thought about Thran Dynamo? I know the appeal of the lotus is that it makes colored mana, however you should evaluate how often you would actually need the three to be colored or not. I'm guessing that in a dual colored deck the dynamo would actually fare better than the lotus. What do you think?
In order to figure out just which extract target would technically be correct, I'll ask for a simple request.
May you please rank the order in which combo is used most often to win versus which one is used least often, from greatest to least. You can submit reasoning to explain the trend.
So, assuming that necro ooze is the most common kill, followed by maybe.... devourer fling, followed by etc.
I cannot tell if he is trying to be a dick or was just saying he thinks your MU vs spell based combo control hybrid is not very good though i think that's fairly irrelevant in multiplayer the deck hes referring too is not really a control list in my mind its a combo deck. Like i said this is not 1:1 and half the ***** he said made no sense I cannot see a spell based combo deck aiming their duress at a creature based combo deck that its willing to race and not the blue player and extract is a pretty jankey meta deck card no one uses. That being said im going to take what he said to make a suggestion .What do you think of Mindslicer? your general is a sac outlet and it can seal games quickly you dont mind binning half your cards and you have alot of good permanents to land before use such as sylvan library necropotence greater good etc i could see that locking a game very quickly. like imagine turn 1 ring t2 slicer t3 greater good that could easily be good game here. if you decide to run more dork for NO it gets even better as then your primed to run diabloic intent. diabolic intent on MS for necro is gg
My other question is after some playtesting on tappedout I find that I fizzle quite easily with druid. Like I'll put ~15 cards in the yard, most of them spells and like 2 creatures. next turn its mostly the same. how does druid usually work for you?
How many fetches are you playing? It matters because you can fetch out basics, Druid isn't great without a low basic count + lots of fetches. That said he can fizzle even with the right numbers, but most of the time he works well.
Looking over your list I feel like Gilded Lotus is the weakest card in the deck. I've always felt that this particular Lotus is just way better when it's supplemented by LOTS of other fast mana, particularly more artifacts than you're running. Do you really think its deserving of its slot? If yes, have you thought about Thran Dynamo? I know the appeal of the lotus is that it makes colored mana, however you should evaluate how often you would actually need the three to be colored or not. I'm guessing that in a dual colored deck the dynamo would actually fare better than the lotus. What do you think?
Gilded Lotus is a good card simply because it curves well - T4 have five mana, cast it, cast a 3-drop. T5 land, Tooth and Nail. Seriously Tooth is such a common tutor target that it's worth including cards that curve around it.
In order to figure out just which extract target would technically be correct, I'll ask for a simple request.
May you please rank the order in which combo is used most often to win versus which one is used least often, from greatest to least. You can submit reasoning to explain the trend.
So, assuming that necro ooze is the most common kill, followed by maybe.... devourer fling, followed by etc.
I cannot tell if he is trying to be a dick or was just saying he thinks your MU vs spell based combo control hybrid is not very good though i think that's fairly irrelevant in multiplayer the deck hes referring too is not really a control list in my mind its a combo deck. Like i said this is not 1:1 and half the ***** he said made no sense I cannot see a spell based combo deck aiming their duress at a creature based combo deck that its willing to race and not the blue player and extract is a pretty jankey meta deck card no one uses. That being said im going to take what he said to make a suggestion .What do you think of Mindslicer? your general is a sac outlet and it can seal games quickly you dont mind binning half your cards and you have alot of good permanents to land before use such as sylvan library necropotence greater good etc i could see that locking a game very quickly. like imagine turn 1 ring t2 slicer t3 greater good that could easily be good game here. if you decide to run more dork for NO it gets even better as then your primed to run diabloic intent. diabolic intent on MS for necro is gg
All of what you suggested is something I should test.
Hey razz. Long time lurker, first time poster. Actually, I have made a few reddit posts about my jarad deck, some of which you looked over. My meta is not the same as yours but I would definitely say it's still competitive. We play to win and have a much higher budget than most, however insta-win combos like tooth and nail and omniscience/enter the infinite are frowned upon ( not banned or anything ) basically because it's too " easy". No stax in our small group yet and one player (the least spiky of us) despises Ld. However if it leads to a quick win (ld that is) or has 3+ card combo there is no problem. There is an oloro combo deck, (enter the infinite/omniscience) a momir vig combo, a nekuksar, a sidisi mono black good stuff, and a few others.
All that being said I was wondering if you could critique my deck. Unlike you I have trouble against faster decks with permission, oloro and momir are the worst. I amped up the deck recently with more removal and i took out a lot of etbt lands. I love my value engines and would prefer to have a longer game but I wanna be able to end it when I want to. What would you recommend I cut or add. Thanks. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jarad-golgari-good-stuff/
Hey razz. Long time lurker, first time poster. Actually, I have made a few reddit posts about my jarad deck, some of which you looked over. My meta is not the same as yours but I would definitely say it's still competitive. We play to win and have a much higher budget than most, however insta-win combos like tooth and nail and omniscience/enter the infinite are frowned upon ( not banned or anything ) basically because it's too " easy". No stax in our small group yet and one player (the least spiky of us) despises Ld. However if it leads to a quick win (ld that is) or has 3+ card combo there is no problem. There is an oloro combo deck, (enter the infinite/omniscience) a momir vig combo, a nekuksar, a sidisi mono black good stuff, and a few others.
All that being said I was wondering if you could critique my deck. Unlike you I have trouble against faster decks with permission, oloro and momir are the worst. I amped up the deck recently with more removal and i took out a lot of etbt lands. I love my value engines and would prefer to have a longer game but I wanna be able to end it when I want to. What would you recommend I cut or add. Thanks. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jarad-golgari-good-stuff/
Honestly how well do you want to tune it? Like this deck is pretty good with those restrictions... but honestly if you don't want to play quickwins you should probably be in this thread.
Like this deck is pretty good with those restrictions.
I will take that as a compliment I am honestly pretty happy with the deck as is, but I do have a few questions. Should I add back in sakura-tribe elder since I just recently upped my basic count? how well does graveborn muse and phyrexian delver work for you? Graveborn seems like it will never last long enough plus I have some decent draw in library, clamp, greater good, and arena, I've always wanted to try delver but he seems subpar compared to the rest of my reanimation, though he does seem sweet with pod (which you aren't playing) and worldly tutor. Also hypothetically, if I were to tune this to my meta but add quick wins what would you do?
I would cut Grave titan, Deadbridge chant, Profane command and add in Tooth and nail, Phyrexian devourer and necrotic ooze. Can you see anything else? I understand we have different play styles but thanks for hearing me out.
I would cut Grave titan, Deadbridge chant, Profane command and add in Tooth and nail, Phyrexian devourer and necrotic ooze. Can you see anything else? I understand we have different play styles but thanks for hearing me out.
Those are all good cuts. 31 lands is a number I'm very happy with so I'd recommend cutting one more as well.
How has the Mindslicer testing been going razzloix?
I think I've got Jarad as tuned as I can with my Dredge, at least, as tuned as I can without Bazaar of Baghdad. Darn card jumped to $600, and I don't have that kind of money to drop on it - least not right now. May pick one up eventually to replace High Market but thems the breaks.
So I've updated the deck with the changes. What would you recommend I add for the land cut? Also could you elaborate on my graveborn muse and phyrexian delver question? I was considering cutting Ashnod's Altar because I don't run the nim death mantle combo anymore. How has wake the dead been for you? Sorry about all the questions but I'm looking to become a skilled pilot at this deck. Thanks
Played another game with this deck tonight. Here's how it went down. Turns 1-4 did nothing except play land. Turn 5 Sharuum player plays Venser the planeswalker. Someone played stranglehold while I had diabolic intent and Sidisi in hand... ****. Turn 5 I draw song of the dryads and cast it on stranglehold. Turn 6 Sharuum player starts mindslaver locking me because I have the most combo potential. My turn, he screws up my hand to hell and back. GG. This deck does nothing in my meta.
Played another game with this deck tonight. Here's how it went down. Turns 1-4 did nothing except play land. Turn 5 Sharuum player plays Venser the planeswalker. Someone played stranglehold while I had diabolic intent and Sidisi in hand... ****. Turn 5 I draw song of the dryads and cast it on stranglehold. Turn 6 Sharuum player starts mindslaver locking me because I have the most combo potential. My turn, he screws up my hand to hell and back. GG. This deck does nothing in my meta.
I can't speak for razzloix, but most times, it seems like that to me, something went wrong somewhere - either a slower hand, or something, but again, can't comment fairly.
So I've updated the deck with the changes. What would you recommend I add for the land cut? Also could you elaborate on my graveborn muse and phyrexian delver question? I was considering cutting Ashnod's Altar because I don't run the nim deathmantle combo anymore. How has wake the dead been for you? Sorry about all the questions but I'm looking to become a skilled pilot at this deck. Thanks
I run a Dredge variant which razzloix isn't running. I can comment on Wake the Dead as being a super good card. However, I've found in my variant, I had to cut Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle, as they didn't do enough. He doesn't seem to run either one, and I know myself I can't run either one. I can comment on Phyrexian Delver being a very good card - to the deck, it's a very flexible reanimating engine out of the yard. But again, that's my two cents for what it's worth.
Hey razz I haven't had a lot to say around here in a while but I'm getting ready to add Necropotence in after deciding that it is easily worth the drawback of losing cards that I discard, and I'm thinking about including Scavenging Ooze as well. I'm at the point where I'm having a hard time making cuts so I was wondering if you could take a look at my current list and let me know which cards you think are the best candidates. I also still can't quite get past the fact that you're running so light on lands. I run 37 and I still occasionally find myself not drawing enough. My group doesn't have the same mulligan rule as yours, so that hurts a little bit, but 6 fewer lands is quite a significant amount. Is there some secret to making sure you are hitting your lands because I don't see how else such a low land count can work out for you.
So I've updated the deck with the changes. What would you recommend I add for the land cut? Also could you elaborate on my graveborn muse and phyrexian delver question? I was considering cutting Ashnod's Altar because I don't run the nim death mantle combo anymore. How has wake the dead been for you? Sorry about all the questions but I'm looking to become a skilled pilot at this deck. Thanks
Praetor's Grasp is pretty decent utility in place of lands. Graveborn Muse improves my late-game - it's a reanimateable Phyrexian Arena that can get more than one card if I have Jarad in play... not sure what the problem you're having is. Phyrexian Delver is really only still in the list because it enables combos, like if my Mike is in my graveyard with Tooth and Nail. Also when I Greater Good chain I can discard Mike + Trike + Phyrexian Delver, reanimate the Delver to get Mike, sac the Delver to Greater Good, and with the Undying on Delver get Triskelion. It's these kinds of neat party tricks that pilots of the deck really need to learn. Wake the Dead is a great surprise card, and plays a lot like Necromancy - cuttable, but I recommend it.
Played another game with this deck tonight. Here's how it went down. Turns 1-4 did nothing except play land. Turn 5 Sharuum player plays Venser the planeswalker. Someone played stranglehold while I had diabolic intent and Sidisi in hand... ****. Turn 5 I draw song of the dryads and cast it on stranglehold. Turn 6 Sharuum player starts mindslaver locking me because I have the most combo potential. My turn, he screws up my hand to hell and back. GG. This deck does nothing in my meta.
Yeah, Stranglehold is rough, but just because you got rough draws one game and got raced doesn't mean the deck isn't performing well. Can you post your decklist?
Hey razz I haven't had a lot to say around here in a while but I'm getting ready to add Necropotence in after deciding that it is easily worth the drawback of losing cards that I discard, and I'm thinking about including Scavenging Ooze as well. I'm at the point where I'm having a hard time making cuts so I was wondering if you could take a look at my current list and let me know which cards you think are the best candidates. I also still can't quite get past the fact that you're running so light on lands. I run 37 and I still occasionally find myself not drawing enough. My group doesn't have the same mulligan rule as yours, so that hurts a little bit, but 6 fewer lands is quite a significant amount. Is there some secret to making sure you are hitting your lands because I don't see how else such a low land count can work out for you.
Here's the decklist for reference. I think if you include more card advantage you will find that a low land count suits us well. Graveborn Muse, as mentioned earlier, is great. You could also play Hermit Druid. Necropotence is another good include for this
Keep in mind that my games are significantly shorter than yours given that I'm a combo deck, meaning I don't have to draw as many lands as you do.
I'm also about to add Necro to my Mimeoplasm. Planning on just drawing into the combo kill in face of gravehate.
I've been looking into ways to turn Survival and other tutors into one card combos and noticed you also have one for Jarad's Orders, which is cool.
Any creature-tutor is a one-card win with Phyrexian Devourer in the deck. In Jarad of course, not in The Mimeoplasm. If you're not playing Mike&Trike there are also ways to chain with Eternal Witness if you have a lot of mana.
Yeah, the one I saw in your list was Witness looping JO to assemble the full Necrotic Ooze combo.
I'm also trying Delver in Mimeoplasm, and it does allow some cool tricks. If you can't get Buried Alive to set up Necrotic Ooze for any reason you can go for Delver, Mike, Trike and do the sac undying play razz mentioned in the GG chain.
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Sorry, but your analysis is pretty poor. My deck is very much not a one-trick pony and is specifically designed to be a multi-trick pony. As I said earlier, my best matchups are control decks that try to stop me from going off, because I can go off over and over and over. Again, I play against high-end control decks in my meta, which is specifically what the deck is made to do. I don't mean to be rude, but if you really want to learn about the deck, read the primer, a post designed to help users in your position.
Also the Extract target is just totally wrong, I'm sorry but Trike is just worse in 80% of my matchups. If you really want to hinder me, hit Devourer or maybe Mike.
It really depends, but usually I'll play it on turn two and then hold it up a few turns. In a pod where my opponents aren't aware that Survival represents a one-card win for me, I'll play some "fair magic" with it before winning.
Also guys please stay on topic. This thread is pretty productive and I'd like it to stay that way.
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May you please rank the order in which combo is used most often to win versus which one is used least often, from greatest to least. You can submit reasoning to explain the trend.
So, assuming that necro ooze is the most common kill, followed by maybe.... devourer fling, followed by etc.
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How many fetches are you playing? It matters because you can fetch out basics, Druid isn't great without a low basic count + lots of fetches. That said he can fizzle even with the right numbers, but most of the time he works well.
Gilded Lotus is a good card simply because it curves well - T4 have five mana, cast it, cast a 3-drop. T5 land, Tooth and Nail. Seriously Tooth is such a common tutor target that it's worth including cards that curve around it.
Necrotic Ooze + Phyrexian Devourer + Triskelion
Devourer + Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Mikeaus the Unhallowed + Trike
Jarad + Lord of Extinction
Mike + Woodfall Primus
Sakura-Tribe Elder (in grave) + Triske (in grave) + Mike + Oooze (def my favorite)
All of what you suggested is something I should test.
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UU Azami, Lady of Experiments and Control UU
BG Jarad - Toolbox Reanimator GB
Trying to figure out what to build next!
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All that being said I was wondering if you could critique my deck. Unlike you I have trouble against faster decks with permission, oloro and momir are the worst. I amped up the deck recently with more removal and i took out a lot of etbt lands. I love my value engines and would prefer to have a longer game but I wanna be able to end it when I want to. What would you recommend I cut or add. Thanks. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jarad-golgari-good-stuff/
Mindslicer now in testing.
If you draw or tutor for Hermit Druid, and otherwise have good mana, yeah. Otherwise, just find duals.
Really? That's pretty cool! Where is your list? What do you combo with?
Honestly how well do you want to tune it? Like this deck is pretty good with those restrictions... but honestly if you don't want to play quickwins you should probably be in this thread.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
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I will take that as a compliment I am honestly pretty happy with the deck as is, but I do have a few questions. Should I add back in sakura-tribe elder since I just recently upped my basic count? how well does graveborn muse and phyrexian delver work for you? Graveborn seems like it will never last long enough plus I have some decent draw in library, clamp, greater good, and arena, I've always wanted to try delver but he seems subpar compared to the rest of my reanimation, though he does seem sweet with pod (which you aren't playing) and worldly tutor. Also hypothetically, if I were to tune this to my meta but add quick wins what would you do?
I would cut Grave titan, Deadbridge chant, Profane command and add in Tooth and nail, Phyrexian devourer and necrotic ooze. Can you see anything else? I understand we have different play styles but thanks for hearing me out.
Those are all good cuts. 31 lands is a number I'm very happy with so I'd recommend cutting one more as well.
When in doubt, Necro for 5. Rarely do I go all-in.
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Sidisi ANT!
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I think I've got Jarad as tuned as I can with my Dredge, at least, as tuned as I can without Bazaar of Baghdad. Darn card jumped to $600, and I don't have that kind of money to drop on it - least not right now. May pick one up eventually to replace High Market but thems the breaks.
UU Azami, Lady of Experiments and Control UU
BG Jarad - Toolbox Reanimator GB
Trying to figure out what to build next!
I can't speak for razzloix, but most times, it seems like that to me, something went wrong somewhere - either a slower hand, or something, but again, can't comment fairly.
I run a Dredge variant which razzloix isn't running. I can comment on Wake the Dead as being a super good card. However, I've found in my variant, I had to cut Ashnod's Altar and Nim Deathmantle, as they didn't do enough. He doesn't seem to run either one, and I know myself I can't run either one. I can comment on Phyrexian Delver being a very good card - to the deck, it's a very flexible reanimating engine out of the yard. But again, that's my two cents for what it's worth.
UU Azami, Lady of Experiments and Control UU
BG Jarad - Toolbox Reanimator GB
Trying to figure out what to build next!
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I've been looking into ways to turn Survival and other tutors into one card combos and noticed you also have one for Jarad's Orders, which is cool.
Praetor's Grasp is pretty decent utility in place of lands. Graveborn Muse improves my late-game - it's a reanimateable Phyrexian Arena that can get more than one card if I have Jarad in play... not sure what the problem you're having is. Phyrexian Delver is really only still in the list because it enables combos, like if my Mike is in my graveyard with Tooth and Nail. Also when I Greater Good chain I can discard Mike + Trike + Phyrexian Delver, reanimate the Delver to get Mike, sac the Delver to Greater Good, and with the Undying on Delver get Triskelion. It's these kinds of neat party tricks that pilots of the deck really need to learn. Wake the Dead is a great surprise card, and plays a lot like Necromancy - cuttable, but I recommend it.
Yeah, Stranglehold is rough, but just because you got rough draws one game and got raced doesn't mean the deck isn't performing well. Can you post your decklist?
Here's the decklist for reference. I think if you include more card advantage you will find that a low land count suits us well. Graveborn Muse, as mentioned earlier, is great. You could also play Hermit Druid. Necropotence is another good include for this
Keep in mind that my games are significantly shorter than yours given that I'm a combo deck, meaning I don't have to draw as many lands as you do.
Any creature-tutor is a one-card win with Phyrexian Devourer in the deck. In Jarad of course, not in The Mimeoplasm. If you're not playing Mike&Trike there are also ways to chain with Eternal Witness if you have a lot of mana.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
I'm also trying Delver in Mimeoplasm, and it does allow some cool tricks. If you can't get Buried Alive to set up Necrotic Ooze for any reason you can go for Delver, Mike, Trike and do the sac undying play razz mentioned in the GG chain.