The dragon looks nice. It'll be worth trying out for a bit. Great budget option for sure. I already run many 6-drops in my build though, which makes me think twice about this one. Also, at some point there may be too many ETB targeted destruction cards. Archon of Justice, Woodfall Primus, Acidic Slime are three similar cards that I already run in addition to Duplicant, Fiend Hunter, Reclamation Sage.
This seals the game right there, usally, i'm thinking you don't run it because sun titangreater good seals the game just faster.
I used to do this with kamahl back when Elesh norn was released. The question is, would you ever really want natures revolt in play without elesh norn?
Elesh Norn is something else I discuss all over this thread and several other Saffi threads. I strongly believe the deck does not need her as a control element or aggro element. There is also the the fact that I do my best to not run things in my deck that would shut it down. A Bribery or reanimation spell for Elesh Norn is bad news for Saffi, espescially if it is your own Elesh Norn.
One card that I toyed with for a while was Natural Affinity, which was originally put in as a compliment to wrath-effects to seal up a win. Incredible combo with Elesh Norn, I soon realized. I took it out eventually though, because yes--half of the time NA was a dead draw. I still run Elesh Norn because my group doesn't run as much theft, but I agree that she's not necessary for Saffi control.
It's 3 mana vs 3 mana, the ONLY difference is the extra green for the Elk. Is it that much of a burden on a 2 color deck with access to two double lands FAIRLY easily that it outweighs the extra potential to time it with martyr's bond and it's obvious potential with gift of immortality turning it nearly into a second sakura-tribe elder? Adds flexibility to get over torpor orb effects while others in the deck get over linvala effects. I think passively stacking the 7 plains automatic plan even when plays are available with the elk is forgetting the elk can reach in and get more plains as needed. Also turn 2 elk has more synergy with a lotus cobra in hand, setting up a turn3 5 mana turn, something the granger cannot achieve. Maybe I am overthinking this, but the only flaw is the 1GG cost, that's it.
I'm going to do a '1 for 1' swap of the two and see how it effects play.
Saffi was my first commander, and I've played her for a while now with various decklists. Super-fun deck, with great interactions. My deck is built more to use board-wipe as a control factor since Saffi has such good recovery and value. So I have about 6-7 wrath type effects in the deck that can wipe the slate clean. My finishes vary, maybe 20-30% combo kills vs. 70-80% soft-lock damage kills. So some questions I had for other Saffi players:
- I'm curious about this decklist, since it seems to run more disruption creatures like teeg, canonist, revoker, without any mass removal. Has anyone playing this tried more wrath effects instead of these guys? It may depend on how combo-based your meta is (mine is less so) how successful this strategy is. Personally, I don't run any of these creatures.
The disruptive creatures have pros and cons, just as any other strategy. I ultimately took this route due to them being more universally playable than sweepers/spell based removal, as well as being more ways to trigger other effects. A Day of Judgment may sit dead in your hand if nobody is putting large amounts of creatures on the board (or has a similar recursion engine going), but nine times out of ten, the hate bears will effect the game in some way. It could be a creature to clamp, pitch to survival or preemptively cut off an angle your opponents may pursue. There will always be a function for them. At worst, they can still attack.
- How do you usually kill opponents? This decklist seems to have fewer sac outlets than what I like to run (I add phyrexian altar, blasting station), because I often found myself assembling saffi+titan/lark/guide without a good enough ways to take advantage of the recursion. I haven't tried the altar of dementia because it didn't seem quite as useful without the combo assembled, but maybe there's an upside I'm overlooking. Anyways, from the primer I wasn't really sure how often the deck was designed to combo-finish vs. kill-finish. I tend to favor the latter because I think it's more fun.
The deck normally kills through combat damage, but can easily combo off. It is really up to the pilot what route to take. If I am playing with people who are known to combo, I will race them with my combo while being able to actively disrupt theirs. If it is a relaxed game, I do not aggressively search out combos and just play the attrition game.
The reason for the lack of sac-outlets in my build is mainly how they can become dead cards rather quickly. Most of them are not really playable, so I only play the few that can directly win you the game (with or without infi loops). Altar of Dementia is fantastic at this; as with any loop, you can deck someone or you can slowly feed your yard to play like a dredge deck. It is also great at nullifying top-deck tutors.
Blasting Station is one that I do not play anymore, but will never argue its inclusion. It is a great card, but I have learned to mimic its effects with other cards without having to use a slot for it.
- Anyone had success with planeswalkers in their build? I've run Gideon Jura for a few years and found him to be pretty handy. He doesn't draw a huge amount of hate, but he can be pretty disruptive and is usually good for at least one kill. I've tinkered with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Elspeth, Knight-Errant before and found them to be alright, but not overwhelming. I know planeswalkers are generally weaker in multiplayer, but maybe some 1v1 builds are running something interesting.
Personally, I am against Planeswalkers as a card type. I hate what they have done to magic. Personal feelings aside, if there ever was a Planeswalker that was a natural fit for the deck, I would not be against its inclusion. That Planeswalker has not been printed yet.
Destructor Dragon. Woodfall #2. Acidic Slime #2.
I'll be running it.
This guy will likely be finding a slot in my list as well. I have been testing the elemental, but have remained unimpressed by it. The dragon will be next up for testing (in place of Acidic Slime).
Non-creature cards can still be manifested face down. They are not able to turn face up.
The most I have cast Saffi for is 18. On average she gets cast from the command zone about 4 to 6 times a game. Usually she gets into play though Genesis recursion or Sun Titan/Karmic Guide/Reveillark triggers.
I'm liking whisperwood elemental, although slow he really lets you maintain pressure or rebuild after a sweep. Works well with armageddon effects to slowly build an army. Better than Titania - no, and I think they fight for the same slot.
If you run Mirror Entity aren't you already running Avenger of Zendikar??
And if you do go with Avenger, start looking at Regal Force more. It's nuts with Wild Pair.
I'm liking whisperwood elemental, although slow he really lets you maintain pressure or rebuild after a sweep. Works well with armageddon effects to slowly build an army. Better than Titania - no, and I think they fight for the same slot.
With Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan banned, the NO targets do not really justify NO. While great value can be attained with it, I dont think it comes at the cost of losing a slot if your running my specific list, as it will never be as game breaking as it was 4 years ago. Vorinclex is probably the next big thing, but I would argue against it most of the time. The Armageddon versions of Saffi would like it though.
If your looking for a great piece of green removal, I highly suggest Ulvenwald Tracker. Its sick with the deathtouch creatures, and functions as an unorthodox sac outlet. It has a ton of uses, but I just cant find the space for it.
I feel like Whisperwood Elemental is right on the cusp of making it into the deck. My testing of it has left me wanting a bit more out of the card. I do agree that the best way to play it is to slow roll it. Not wanting to ever use a Saffi trigger on it bothers me. What notes do you have on the card? I would love to hear about your experiences.
Acidic Slime vs Destructor Dragon
If the dragon makes the list, this my not be the switch I make as this is purely for testing. They do have functional differences, but ultimately fill the same role. With Karmic Guide involved in the Mirror Entity loop, the same effect can be achieved. It could be a 'living the dream' scenario, but stranger things have happened hahaha.
EDIT: McScoop sure does love that Idyllic Tutor, hahaha.
Anyone tried out Rally the Ancestors in this deck? With a lot of ETB creatures at 2-3CMC, it seems like one could get some decent value out of a full graveyard for only 4 or 5 mana, including an extra Saffi trigger if you don't have any other recursion available. The exile at the end is obviously a problem, but could be worked around with a sac outlet, Fiend Hunter, or even Relic Warder. I pulled a foil Rally, so I may test it a bit.
I'm really tuning my deck to be a diet deck now, very lean and mean. As such I cut out some slower/expensive pieces so I could either combo faster ,attack harder, or drop a huge creature and armageddon.
I feel like Whisperwood Elemental is right on the cusp of making it into the deck. My testing of it has left me wanting a bit more out of the card. I do agree that the best way to play it is to slow roll it. Not wanting to ever use a Saffi trigger on it bothers me. What notes do you have on the card? I would love to hear about your experiences.
WHISPERWOOD ELEMENTAL
Couple unflattering things I've come across while playing with him are as follows.
- a lot of the cards in the deck are ETB and unless Saffi can ressurect them, the manifests are usually dead 2/2's
- No immediate impact on the game, he can't save you (unless crazy enchantment manifested + saffi + sac outlet)
- Requires some setting up to do wacky things, I run top, guile, library, and scry land, sometimes you'll get something synergystic, sometimes you won't
- Ability as a whole is random, it's best not to put too much emotion into what gets manifested.
- You're rarely going to tutor or birthing pod for him, unless ur already winning and need protection, but there are stronger cards to close the door
- Better early game drop.
- My deck doesn't have too many creatures, so I'm usually manifesting lands or spells. That isn't horrible, but it relegates him to being a cheaper Verdant force / Caller of the Claw.
- Very confusing card, the lines of play that open up with him and some synergistic manifests is beyond complicated.
These are awesome setups, during actual games. I really didn't know what to do because there were so many options. Things can get confusing.
- Knowing when to sacrifice him, or
- when to flip a manifest or
- sac the manifest permanent and bring it back with Saffi or
- flipping the manifest to synergize with something on the field
for the most optimum play can really twist your mind. Saffi is the Ideal commander to use this guy with however. No other commander can come close to breaking Whisperwood like she does.
*Bonus points if you can effectivley end the game from the board states above or set yourself up for victory hehe*
Some cool things
- Insane with gift of Immortality OR Saffi with Gift and he on the field - produces lots of creatures
- If dropped early you can ride him and Saffi all the way to victory without doing much and conserving your cards. Dropped on turn 2 with mana Vault, turn 3-4 with Sol ring or various ramp
- If you can get it to stick - can really overwhelm counter-based decks
- Works well before and after armageddon, but battles with Titania for this spot (e.i. Pattern of rebirth for Whisperwood or Titania??? -then Armageddon)
- Tons of bluffing. manifest - peek at your card and say "Finally" even though it's a land. Your opponent won't block or they'll waste removal on it. Attack with a manifest and put your hand over your mana like your going to tap, then do nothing.
- He's very confusing, as the opponents don't really understand how to get rid of him or what you potentially could do.
- He can sacrifice himself, which is good for pattern of Rebirth and other cards, and can dodge swords and other exile removal, and dodges living death
- Hidden X factor, the ceiling for this guy is high I believe.
- Can work independantly from the deck. Let him churn out manifests, and continue ur game plan. If you manifest something that helps great, if not- your opponents still have to deal with him, the manifests, and the threat of Saffi reviving him. I guess the word would be a "persistent army"
He's a tricky guy, not an auto include - but provides something the Saffi deck I think needed (mine anyway). Builds and army to match more aggressive decks, and protecting what you have. All the while playing little tricks. If you get lucky he'll release a bomb and flip the momentum. I don't think most Saffi decks get better with him though as the 5 drop slot is stuffed with awesome more direct cards.....but they don't get worse either. He actually works well with Glare of subdual & Gift of immortality, 2 cards I had written off previously. I might be adding Gaea's Cradle because of him -damn my head is going to hurt.
I love the guy and he's found a place in my deck
With Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan banned, the NO targets do not really justify NO. While great value can be attained with it, I dont think it comes at the cost of losing a slot if your running my specific list, as it will never be as game breaking as it was 4 years ago. Vorinclex is probably the next big thing, but I would argue against it most of the time. The Armageddon versions of Saffi would like it though.
I like Natural Order, but you maybe right that it ain't what it used to be. I'll Give Vorenclex another try even though in the past he always gets killed because everyone hates on him understandably. I still need about 5 solid slots so I'll see
Honestly, all bases are covered against Iona. There is Ulamog/Duplicant, Archon of Justice/Fiend Hunter/Sunblast Angel/Oblivion Ring if the player names green, and Hornet Queen/Avenger of Zendikar/Titiania if the player names white. Granted, it is easy to get caught with your pants down... but outs exist.
As For Iona, I can live without having an answer at times, no need to soften my deck because of the occasional Iona.
Destructor Dragon. Woodfall #2. Acidic Slime #2.
I'll be running it.
Acidic Slime vs Destructor Dragon
If the dragon makes the list, this my not be the switch I make as this is purely for testing. They do have functional differences, but ultimately fill the same role. With Karmic Guide involved in the Mirror Entity loop, the same effect can be achieved. It could be a 'living the dream' scenario, but stranger things have happened hahaha.
Destructor Dragon - Perfomed well for me, He turned out to be more like Archon #2. Hard body that can do damage, evades, deterrent, and cool as hell in FOIL.
If you are running enchantment tutors maybe check out Lignify or Song of the Dryads.
Thanks for song of the Dryads, I like this as a second oblivion ring. Having the tuck rule nerfed has unexpectedly absent on the fence. I was looking for more green removal in the form of creatures since they are easily tutorabe in this deck - but great suggestion to nullify anything and I will try to find a spot for it
Jehuty, what tuck rule nerf are you referring to? As far as I know, the only legal times players can move a commander to the command zone are when it would be put into the graveyard or exiled. Unexpectedly Absent should still put a commander into your opponent's library without them being able to pull it to the command zone instead.
Also, good notes on Whisperwood and Destructor Dragon. I haven't picked up a copy of Whisperwood yet, so I'm eager to hear how it's playing in Saffi.
Destructor Dragon is actually amazing in Saffi; I've been testing it since the Fate Reforged PR as Archon of Justice #2. I'm glad other Saffi players have been trying it out as well!
a few posts up, there was a comment about Dawntreader Elk vs Yavimays Grainger. Diligent Farmhand serves a similar role - and has the same total cost, but is a 1-drop. I'd imagine not in saffi, but Is there ever a circumstance that you could imagine where it would be a relevant option ?
What do you guys think about Temur Sabertooth? It seems too crazy to leave out such a fine effect from a deck that runs this many creatures with relevant etb's.
Because the deck doesn't want to bounce, it wants to sac-recur. Bouncing and replaying costs a ton of mana that just takes too much time. Indestructibility is irrelevant in Saffi as well. Finally, each activation costs 2 mana which is way too much when there are better options.
a few posts up, there was a comment about Dawntreader Elk vs Yavimays Grainger. Diligent Farmhand serves a similar role - and has the same total cost, but is a 1-drop. I'd imagine not in saffi, but Is there ever a circumstance that you could imagine where it would be a relevant option ?
Definitely not in saffi. Again, the activation cost will come into play as every time you bring it back, you need more mana to activate. It'll slow you down way too much. That said, it isn't really a good comparison anyway, since one gets you a land when it comes into play, the other needs to be sacced. This is very relevant, since Elk can be sacced to another sac outlet and still net a land, Elk cannot. Better comparison is Elk to Sakura-Tribe Elder, and Tribe-Elder is the clear winner here not just for being cheaper but also for the 0-mana activation cost.
Is anyone using Mistmoon Griffin or Moldgraf Monstrosity? Both can loop with Saffi. Mistmoon seems quite good since it's a low CMC and reliable recursion. I just came across it and realized it could work. I've tested Moldgraf before, which is kind of nice for being a large body for only 7, as well as being able to bring back two creatures. Unfortunately, since he targets at random, you can't always rely on Saffi recursion if there are multiple targets in the graveyard. In those cases he worked more as a large beater with a bonus if he dies. I took him out, but he's still on my maybelist.
I don't want to harp on this too much, since I do feel that it has been addressed to some degree, but doesn't Ethersworn Canonist hurt YOU enough that it might be replaceable with something that more primarily affects opponent's control plans over your plans?
I kind of agree on the Canonist, but I suppose it's the kind of thing you can turn off with a sac outlet if you need to. I don't run it myself.
Gift of Immortality has been awesome in my time using it. It doesn't combo-out and win you the game, but it provides amazing value with any of the creatures that self-sacrifice. Qasali Pridemage? Blow up an artifact/enchantment every turn. Spore Frog? Perpetual fog. Sakura-Tribe Elder? Fetch a basic land during every player's turn. Karmic Guide lets you bring another creature back to play on your upkeep or every time it dies to something else. It's kind of another version of Saffi in the deck--one that can't create combos, but can recur very cheaply. In that way, I see it as mainly a way of squeezing more value out of a deck full of value creatures.
I kind of agree on the Canonist, but I suppose it's the kind of thing you can turn off with a sac outlet if you need to. I don't run it myself.
Gift of Immortality has been awesome in my time using it. It doesn't combo-out and win you the game, but it provides amazing value with any of the creatures that self-sacrifice. Qasali Pridemage? Blow up an artifact/enchantment every turn. Spore Frog? Perpetual fog. Sakura-Tribe Elder? Fetch a basic land during every player's turn. Karmic Guide lets you bring another creature back to play on your upkeep or every time it dies to something else. It's kind of another version of Saffi in the deck--one that can't create combos, but can recur very cheaply. In that way, I see it as mainly a way of squeezing more value out of a deck full of value creatures.
Actually, it can combo with Sun Titan and a sac outlet for infinite mana/damage/draw/whatever in case you don't have Saffi for whatever reason. But yes, it does nutty things with pretty much everything in the deck.
As for the Mistmoon Griffin suggestion, I could definitely see it as a decent Karmic Guide #2, but I don't like all the restrictions it has that make it limited in use. The thing about Saffi is, all of the creatures are strong on their own outside of combo piece. I'm not sure how strong it would be outside of combo, but it certainly merits testing. Moldgraf Monstrosity looks too expensive for use.
Gift of Immortality has been awesome in my time using it. It doesn't combo-out and win you the game, but it provides amazing value with any of the creatures that self-sacrifice. Qasali Pridemage? Blow up an artifact/enchantment every turn. Spore Frog? Perpetual fog. Sakura-Tribe Elder? Fetch a basic land during every player's turn. Karmic Guide lets you bring another creature back to play on your upkeep or every time it dies to something else. It's kind of another version of Saffi in the deck--one that can't create combos, but can recur very cheaply. In that way, I see it as mainly a way of squeezing more value out of a deck full of value creatures.
I guess Gift just feels a little too easy to play around. If you're getting value out of it, it's possibly acting as a win-more card.
I haven't used Gift to exactly win (or win-more as you say), but I have used it to fog like crazy.
Pridemage, Elder, Elk, Saffi.. lots of good value there sure, but it's simply amazing with Spore Frog, Spike Weaver, and Martyr's Cause.
Actually, it can combo with Sun Titan and a sac outlet for infinite mana/damage/draw/whatever in case you don't have Saffi for whatever reason. But yes, it does nutty things with pretty much everything in the deck.
As for the Mistmoon Griffin suggestion, I could definitely see it as a decent Karmic Guide #2, but I don't like all the restrictions it has that make it limited in use. The thing about Saffi is, all of the creatures are strong on their own outside of combo piece. I'm not sure how strong it would be outside of combo, but it certainly merits testing. Moldgraf Monstrosity looks too expensive for use.
Ah, I forgot about the Sun Titan combo. Yeah, I suppose most of the time you'll have Saffi and not need Gift as much late-game, though I think it out-does Saffi in some situations like the ones I've mentioned. Those kind of combos make it amazing to have in your starting hand because it can be put into play early and recur multiple times for no cost. Late-game, how about putting it onto Yosei with a sac engine in play for a soft lock?
True on Mistmoon being somewhat lacking on its own. It's restrictive and lends itself to more of a combo-centric deck I suppose. Still, pretty low-cost option to add to the list of potential combos.
Gift of Immortality has been awesome in my time using it. It doesn't combo-out and win you the game, but it provides amazing value with any of the creatures that self-sacrifice. Qasali Pridemage? Blow up an artifact/enchantment every turn. Spore Frog? Perpetual fog. Sakura-Tribe Elder? Fetch a basic land during every player's turn. Karmic Guide lets you bring another creature back to play on your upkeep or every time it dies to something else. It's kind of another version of Saffi in the deck--one that can't create combos, but can recur very cheaply. In that way, I see it as mainly a way of squeezing more value out of a deck full of value creatures.
I guess Gift just feels a little too easy to play around. If you're getting value out of it, it's possibly acting as a win-more card.
This statement is completely baseless. Please quantify it especially considering there has been numerous explanations of why it is useful and you have not really given any explanation for why you DON'T think it's useful.
One thing I am gathering from your comments is, I'm not sure if you fully understand how Saffi works. Saffi doesn't just try to assemble combo pieces and win. Saffi is actually her own recursion engine to get multiple uses out of every other creature in the deck. Saffi also happens to protect any creature from 99% of removal in the game. You play Saffi early, use her early, and let her die because she's going to come back anyway. Gift does the exact same thing, except it comes back on its own.
This statement is completely baseless. Please quantify it especially considering there has been numerous explanations of why it is useful and you have not really given any explanation for why you DON'T think it's useful.
One thing I am gathering from your comments is, I'm not sure if you fully understand how Saffi works. Saffi doesn't just try to assemble combo pieces and win. Saffi is actually her own recursion engine to get multiple uses out of every other creature in the deck. Saffi also happens to protect any creature from 99% of removal in the game. You play Saffi early, use her early, and let her die because she's going to come back anyway. Gift does the exact same thing, except it comes back on its own.
Someone is feeling passionate here... I don't feel that I really deserved to be snapped at like this, but okay. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and provide some additional explanation.
I feel that as an aura which is inherently limited to one use per turn (assuming you aren't recurring it with something like Sun Titan), there are two straight-forward issues: Auras are easy to play around with creature removal, and the one use per turn gives a second, decently long opportunity to play around it again with various forms of removal. Now, "dies to removal" often isn't an amazing argument for card power, but it comes up quite notably in the case of auras, since it applies to an additional notable type of removal spell. It means that the engine of Gift of Immortality is going to be somewhat fragile. And in that vein, if someone is making it work, there's a decent chance that this is a win-more situation, because it suggests that your opponents are in a worse position; a position where they can't stop the relatively slow engine with ease.
Now, there is the synergy factor for the deck, which could arguably outweigh the comparative downsides of Gift of Immortality to Saffi herself. I think this is a meta-dependent call. I know that in several of the metas that I have personally witnessed, it would not be efficient enough. That said, there certainly exist metas in which it would be fine. I don't know which of those two applies exactly in the case of the original poster or M4rauder, but I do know that in M4rauder's case, if the described scenario was happening in one of the aforementioned metas, it would mean that the other players are in a bad state (i.e. already losing to some degree), at which point the card becomes, well, win-more.
Also, having personally played with and against a very similar deck to this one quite a bit, in the context of one of these more competitive metas, I certainly do understand the purpose of Saffi (and similar generals) as a synergy deck rather than as a combo deck. I was never trying to imply that Saffi is a combo-driven general. Heck, looking back at my first comment here, one might even believe that I think of Saffi as an aggro deck, which completely contradicts this idea of yours that I'm only thinking of Saffi as combo-driven.
Someone is feeling passionate here... I don't feel that I really deserved to be snapped at like this, but okay. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and provide some additional explanation.
I "snapped" at you because you twice said a card wasn't worth playing without any kind of explanation, even after the card's merits were explained. This does not open up any kind of discussion since we are given no points to talk about. This is why I said your statement was baseless; you need to EXPLAIN why you feel a card is a certain way, not just state your opinion and expect everyone to agree with you. But that's neither here nor there.
I feel that as an aura which is inherently limited to one use per turn (assuming you aren't recurring it with something like Sun Titan), there are two straight-forward issues: Auras are easy to play around with creature removal, and the one use per turn gives a second, decently long opportunity to play around it again with various forms of removal. Now, "dies to removal" often isn't an amazing argument for card power, but it comes up quite notably in the case of auras, since it applies to an additional notable type of removal spell. It means that the engine of Gift of Immortality is going to be somewhat fragile. And in that vein, if someone is making it work, there's a decent chance that this is a win-more situation, because it suggests that your opponents are in a worse position; a position where they can't stop the relatively slow engine with ease.
No, the problem with auras isn't the fact that it can be removed with two types of removal because this is a relatively small factor. The problem with auras is the potential to be 2-for-1-ed in the case the creature gets removed before you get any value out of the enchantment. Auras are still worth playing if a) this potential risk factor can be mitigated, and/or b) the aura will win the game for you.
Gift of Immortality actually fits both criteria. Even if, worst case scenario, someone has mana open to Swords your Tribe-Elder the turn you play Gift, you still will have gotten two triggers off Tribe-Elder and they just had to waste a Swords on a Tribe-Elder that you will probably be able to get back anyway. And if they have instant speed grave hate at their disposal, again, you still will have gotten at least one trigger off. So, absolute worst case scenario, you're still pulling even. The "dies to removal" argument for auras does not apply here.
As for the "win-more" comment, no, that is not what "win-more" means at all. You are essentially equating a card as "win-more" on whether or not it dies to removal, which, besides the fact that I've already explained why this is irrelevant, is also not what "win-more" means. Whether or not a card can die to removal has nothing to do with whether or not it is "win-more" - it has to do with board position. Using the OP's deck as an example, I would argue that Wild Pair or Martyr's Bond fit this criteria a lot better (For the record, I don't use Martyr's Bond for this exact reason. I am using Wild Pair currently but I am still on the fence on it). Gift, on the other hand, will help your board position regardless of if you are behind or ahead.
Now, there is the synergy factor for the deck, which could arguably outweigh the comparative downsides of Gift of Immortality to Saffi herself. I think this is a meta-dependent call. I know that in several of the metas that I have personally witnessed, it would not be efficient enough. That said, there certainly exist metas in which it would be fine. I don't know which of those two applies exactly in the case of the original poster or M4rauder, but I do know that in M4rauder's case, if the described scenario was happening in one of the aforementioned metas, it would mean that the other players are in a bad state (i.e. already losing to some degree), at which point the card becomes, well, win-more.
I play in a very competitive meta with Kaalia, Scion, Zur, Kruphix, Omnath, Momir, and other competitive generals. My Saffi deck is probably the most feared out of all of them, not only because I can combo out faster than them but because of how well it fights through disruption. Gift is a must-immediately answer card that will either give me an insurmountable lead or just outright win the game for me (Granted, so is about half of my deck).
Also, having personally played with and against a very similar deck to this one quite a bit, in the context of one of these more competitive metas, I certainly do understand the purpose of Saffi (and similar generals) as a synergy deck rather than as a combo deck. I was never trying to imply that Saffi is a combo-driven general. Heck, looking back at my first comment here, one might even believe that I think of Saffi as an aggro deck, which completely contradicts this idea of yours that I'm only thinking of Saffi as combo-driven.
Actually, Saffi is entirely combo-driven. My point is, it's how Saffi gets to the combo that's important. While other combo decks just tries to assemble combo pieces and win, or control the board state and win, Saffi combos out differently - since so many of the combo pieces also advance the board state, and since so many of the combo pieces works well together, and because the deck is so redundant and difficult to disrupt, all the deck really has to do is build its board state until it stumbles into the "oops, I win" moment. Not saying that's the only way it can win, but in more competitive metas, many games just end with Saffi just hitting critical mass and winning regardless of the disruption thrown her way.
This is why cards like Gift are really good - not only does it work very synergistically with the rest of the deck and help the deck hit critical mass, but it can combo out as well if needed.
I'll be running it.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
One card that I toyed with for a while was Natural Affinity, which was originally put in as a compliment to wrath-effects to seal up a win. Incredible combo with Elesh Norn, I soon realized. I took it out eventually though, because yes--half of the time NA was a dead draw. I still run Elesh Norn because my group doesn't run as much theft, but I agree that she's not necessary for Saffi control.
I'm going to do a '1 for 1' swap of the two and see how it effects play.
The disruptive creatures have pros and cons, just as any other strategy. I ultimately took this route due to them being more universally playable than sweepers/spell based removal, as well as being more ways to trigger other effects. A Day of Judgment may sit dead in your hand if nobody is putting large amounts of creatures on the board (or has a similar recursion engine going), but nine times out of ten, the hate bears will effect the game in some way. It could be a creature to clamp, pitch to survival or preemptively cut off an angle your opponents may pursue. There will always be a function for them. At worst, they can still attack.
The deck normally kills through combat damage, but can easily combo off. It is really up to the pilot what route to take. If I am playing with people who are known to combo, I will race them with my combo while being able to actively disrupt theirs. If it is a relaxed game, I do not aggressively search out combos and just play the attrition game.
The reason for the lack of sac-outlets in my build is mainly how they can become dead cards rather quickly. Most of them are not really playable, so I only play the few that can directly win you the game (with or without infi loops). Altar of Dementia is fantastic at this; as with any loop, you can deck someone or you can slowly feed your yard to play like a dredge deck. It is also great at nullifying top-deck tutors.
Blasting Station is one that I do not play anymore, but will never argue its inclusion. It is a great card, but I have learned to mimic its effects with other cards without having to use a slot for it.
Personally, I am against Planeswalkers as a card type. I hate what they have done to magic. Personal feelings aside, if there ever was a Planeswalker that was a natural fit for the deck, I would not be against its inclusion. That Planeswalker has not been printed yet.
This guy will likely be finding a slot in my list as well. I have been testing the elemental, but have remained unimpressed by it. The dragon will be next up for testing (in place of Acidic Slime).
The most I have cast Saffi for is 18. On average she gets cast from the command zone about 4 to 6 times a game. Usually she gets into play though Genesis recursion or Sun Titan/Karmic Guide/Reveillark triggers.
SinceDestructor dragon was released I was thinking of using natural order. Are there any other really good targets to tutor besidesWoodfall Primus? I don't use regal force, and Terastodon is like "meh". Also I'm looking for a green piece of removal in case of Iona. All I've found is stingerfling spider, hornet queen, and elvish skysweeper.
I'm liking whisperwood elemental, although slow he really lets you maintain pressure or rebuild after a sweep. Works well with armageddon effects to slowly build an army. Better than Titania - no, and I think they fight for the same slot.
If you run Mirror Entity aren't you already running Avenger of Zendikar??
And if you do go with Avenger, start looking at Regal Force more. It's nuts with Wild Pair.
If you are running enchantment tutors maybe check out Lignify or Song of the Dryads.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
With Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan banned, the NO targets do not really justify NO. While great value can be attained with it, I dont think it comes at the cost of losing a slot if your running my specific list, as it will never be as game breaking as it was 4 years ago. Vorinclex is probably the next big thing, but I would argue against it most of the time. The Armageddon versions of Saffi would like it though.
If your looking for a great piece of green removal, I highly suggest Ulvenwald Tracker. Its sick with the deathtouch creatures, and functions as an unorthodox sac outlet. It has a ton of uses, but I just cant find the space for it.
Honestly, all bases are covered against Iona. There is Ulamog/Duplicant, Archon of Justice/Fiend Hunter/Sunblast Angel/Oblivion Ring if the player names green, and Hornet Queen/Avenger of Zendikar/Titiania if the player names white. Granted, it is easy to get caught with your pants down... but outs exist.
I feel like Whisperwood Elemental is right on the cusp of making it into the deck. My testing of it has left me wanting a bit more out of the card. I do agree that the best way to play it is to slow roll it. Not wanting to ever use a Saffi trigger on it bothers me. What notes do you have on the card? I would love to hear about your experiences.
Acidic Slime vs Destructor Dragon
If the dragon makes the list, this my not be the switch I make as this is purely for testing. They do have functional differences, but ultimately fill the same role. With Karmic Guide involved in the Mirror Entity loop, the same effect can be achieved. It could be a 'living the dream' scenario, but stranger things have happened hahaha.
EDIT: McScoop sure does love that Idyllic Tutor, hahaha.
WHISPERWOOD ELEMENTAL
Couple unflattering things I've come across while playing with him are as follows.
- a lot of the cards in the deck are ETB and unless Saffi can ressurect them, the manifests are usually dead 2/2's
- No immediate impact on the game, he can't save you (unless crazy enchantment manifested + saffi + sac outlet)
- Requires some setting up to do wacky things, I run top, guile, library, and scry land, sometimes you'll get something synergystic, sometimes you won't
- Ability as a whole is random, it's best not to put too much emotion into what gets manifested.
- You're rarely going to tutor or birthing pod for him, unless ur already winning and need protection, but there are stronger cards to close the door
- Better early game drop.
- My deck doesn't have too many creatures, so I'm usually manifesting lands or spells. That isn't horrible, but it relegates him to being a cheaper Verdant force / Caller of the Claw.
- Very confusing card, the lines of play that open up with him and some synergistic manifests is beyond complicated.
(example 1: Knight of the Reliquary, Whisperwood Elemental, 3 manifests - MFST Academy Rector, MFST Savannah, MFST Titania, Protector of Argoth Saffi Eriksdotter. Enlightened tutor & Nature's Claim in hand)
(example 2: Whisperwood Elemental, 2 manifest - MFST Cataclysm, MFST Eternal Witness,. Sun Titan. 6 Lands & High market in hand. Saffi Eriksdotter in command zone 1 Death)
These are awesome setups, during actual games. I really didn't know what to do because there were so many options. Things can get confusing.
- Knowing when to sacrifice him, or
- when to flip a manifest or
- sac the manifest permanent and bring it back with Saffi or
- flipping the manifest to synergize with something on the field
for the most optimum play can really twist your mind. Saffi is the Ideal commander to use this guy with however. No other commander can come close to breaking Whisperwood like she does.
*Bonus points if you can effectivley end the game from the board states above or set yourself up for victory hehe*
Some cool things
- Insane with gift of Immortality OR Saffi with Gift and he on the field - produces lots of creatures
- If dropped early you can ride him and Saffi all the way to victory without doing much and conserving your cards. Dropped on turn 2 with mana Vault, turn 3-4 with Sol ring or various ramp
- If you can get it to stick - can really overwhelm counter-based decks
- Works well before and after armageddon, but battles with Titania for this spot (e.i. Pattern of rebirth for Whisperwood or Titania??? -then Armageddon)
- Tons of bluffing. manifest - peek at your card and say "Finally" even though it's a land. Your opponent won't block or they'll waste removal on it. Attack with a manifest and put your hand over your mana like your going to tap, then do nothing.
- He's very confusing, as the opponents don't really understand how to get rid of him or what you potentially could do.
- He can sacrifice himself, which is good for pattern of Rebirth and other cards, and can dodge swords and other exile removal, and dodges living death
- Hidden X factor, the ceiling for this guy is high I believe.
- Can work independantly from the deck. Let him churn out manifests, and continue ur game plan. If you manifest something that helps great, if not- your opponents still have to deal with him, the manifests, and the threat of Saffi reviving him. I guess the word would be a "persistent army"
He's a tricky guy, not an auto include - but provides something the Saffi deck I think needed (mine anyway). Builds and army to match more aggressive decks, and protecting what you have. All the while playing little tricks. If you get lucky he'll release a bomb and flip the momentum. I don't think most Saffi decks get better with him though as the 5 drop slot is stuffed with awesome more direct cards.....but they don't get worse either. He actually works well with Glare of subdual & Gift of immortality, 2 cards I had written off previously. I might be adding Gaea's Cradle because of him -damn my head is going to hurt.
I love the guy and he's found a place in my deck
I like Natural Order, but you maybe right that it ain't what it used to be. I'll Give Vorenclex another try even though in the past he always gets killed because everyone hates on him understandably. I still need about 5 solid slots so I'll see
As For Iona, I can live without having an answer at times, no need to soften my deck because of the occasional Iona.
Destructor Dragon - Perfomed well for me, He turned out to be more like Archon #2. Hard body that can do damage, evades, deterrent, and cool as hell in FOIL.
Thanks for song of the Dryads, I like this as a second oblivion ring. Having the tuck rule nerfed has unexpectedly absent on the fence. I was looking for more green removal in the form of creatures since they are easily tutorabe in this deck - but great suggestion to nullify anything and I will try to find a spot for it
A few other synergies I ended up stumbling upon.
Cloudshift + eternal witness + aura shards = destruction loop for 1 W
Titania, protector of argoth + Gift of immortality + strip mine + sac oulet = massive land destruction and creatures .I'll upload the changes to my deck later. So far I'm consistently winning on turns 5-7 against medium to slow decks, or creating locks and then comboing out over other decks.
Also, good notes on Whisperwood and Destructor Dragon. I haven't picked up a copy of Whisperwood yet, so I'm eager to hear how it's playing in Saffi.
Why run Glare of Subdual when Yosei, the Morning Star does it better? Saffi doesn't really use enough tokens to really get the most out of Glare
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
EDIT: I'll second Temur Sabretooth. That thing is nuts with Wood Elves and a mana doubler.
Because the deck doesn't want to bounce, it wants to sac-recur. Bouncing and replaying costs a ton of mana that just takes too much time. Indestructibility is irrelevant in Saffi as well. Finally, each activation costs 2 mana which is way too much when there are better options.
Definitely not in saffi. Again, the activation cost will come into play as every time you bring it back, you need more mana to activate. It'll slow you down way too much. That said, it isn't really a good comparison anyway, since one gets you a land when it comes into play, the other needs to be sacced. This is very relevant, since Elk can be sacced to another sac outlet and still net a land, Elk cannot. Better comparison is Elk to Sakura-Tribe Elder, and Tribe-Elder is the clear winner here not just for being cheaper but also for the 0-mana activation cost.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Gift of Immortality also seems a bit iffy.
Gift of Immortality has been awesome in my time using it. It doesn't combo-out and win you the game, but it provides amazing value with any of the creatures that self-sacrifice. Qasali Pridemage? Blow up an artifact/enchantment every turn. Spore Frog? Perpetual fog. Sakura-Tribe Elder? Fetch a basic land during every player's turn. Karmic Guide lets you bring another creature back to play on your upkeep or every time it dies to something else. It's kind of another version of Saffi in the deck--one that can't create combos, but can recur very cheaply. In that way, I see it as mainly a way of squeezing more value out of a deck full of value creatures.
Actually, it can combo with Sun Titan and a sac outlet for infinite mana/damage/draw/whatever in case you don't have Saffi for whatever reason. But yes, it does nutty things with pretty much everything in the deck.
As for the Mistmoon Griffin suggestion, I could definitely see it as a decent Karmic Guide #2, but I don't like all the restrictions it has that make it limited in use. The thing about Saffi is, all of the creatures are strong on their own outside of combo piece. I'm not sure how strong it would be outside of combo, but it certainly merits testing. Moldgraf Monstrosity looks too expensive for use.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
I guess Gift just feels a little too easy to play around. If you're getting value out of it, it's possibly acting as a win-more card.
Pridemage, Elder, Elk, Saffi.. lots of good value there sure, but it's simply amazing with Spore Frog, Spike Weaver, and Martyr's Cause.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Ah, I forgot about the Sun Titan combo. Yeah, I suppose most of the time you'll have Saffi and not need Gift as much late-game, though I think it out-does Saffi in some situations like the ones I've mentioned. Those kind of combos make it amazing to have in your starting hand because it can be put into play early and recur multiple times for no cost. Late-game, how about putting it onto Yosei with a sac engine in play for a soft lock?
True on Mistmoon being somewhat lacking on its own. It's restrictive and lends itself to more of a combo-centric deck I suppose. Still, pretty low-cost option to add to the list of potential combos.
This statement is completely baseless. Please quantify it especially considering there has been numerous explanations of why it is useful and you have not really given any explanation for why you DON'T think it's useful.
One thing I am gathering from your comments is, I'm not sure if you fully understand how Saffi works. Saffi doesn't just try to assemble combo pieces and win. Saffi is actually her own recursion engine to get multiple uses out of every other creature in the deck. Saffi also happens to protect any creature from 99% of removal in the game. You play Saffi early, use her early, and let her die because she's going to come back anyway. Gift does the exact same thing, except it comes back on its own.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Someone is feeling passionate here... I don't feel that I really deserved to be snapped at like this, but okay. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and provide some additional explanation.
I feel that as an aura which is inherently limited to one use per turn (assuming you aren't recurring it with something like Sun Titan), there are two straight-forward issues: Auras are easy to play around with creature removal, and the one use per turn gives a second, decently long opportunity to play around it again with various forms of removal. Now, "dies to removal" often isn't an amazing argument for card power, but it comes up quite notably in the case of auras, since it applies to an additional notable type of removal spell. It means that the engine of Gift of Immortality is going to be somewhat fragile. And in that vein, if someone is making it work, there's a decent chance that this is a win-more situation, because it suggests that your opponents are in a worse position; a position where they can't stop the relatively slow engine with ease.
Now, there is the synergy factor for the deck, which could arguably outweigh the comparative downsides of Gift of Immortality to Saffi herself. I think this is a meta-dependent call. I know that in several of the metas that I have personally witnessed, it would not be efficient enough. That said, there certainly exist metas in which it would be fine. I don't know which of those two applies exactly in the case of the original poster or M4rauder, but I do know that in M4rauder's case, if the described scenario was happening in one of the aforementioned metas, it would mean that the other players are in a bad state (i.e. already losing to some degree), at which point the card becomes, well, win-more.
Also, having personally played with and against a very similar deck to this one quite a bit, in the context of one of these more competitive metas, I certainly do understand the purpose of Saffi (and similar generals) as a synergy deck rather than as a combo deck. I was never trying to imply that Saffi is a combo-driven general. Heck, looking back at my first comment here, one might even believe that I think of Saffi as an aggro deck, which completely contradicts this idea of yours that I'm only thinking of Saffi as combo-driven.
I "snapped" at you because you twice said a card wasn't worth playing without any kind of explanation, even after the card's merits were explained. This does not open up any kind of discussion since we are given no points to talk about. This is why I said your statement was baseless; you need to EXPLAIN why you feel a card is a certain way, not just state your opinion and expect everyone to agree with you. But that's neither here nor there.
No, the problem with auras isn't the fact that it can be removed with two types of removal because this is a relatively small factor. The problem with auras is the potential to be 2-for-1-ed in the case the creature gets removed before you get any value out of the enchantment. Auras are still worth playing if a) this potential risk factor can be mitigated, and/or b) the aura will win the game for you.
Gift of Immortality actually fits both criteria. Even if, worst case scenario, someone has mana open to Swords your Tribe-Elder the turn you play Gift, you still will have gotten two triggers off Tribe-Elder and they just had to waste a Swords on a Tribe-Elder that you will probably be able to get back anyway. And if they have instant speed grave hate at their disposal, again, you still will have gotten at least one trigger off. So, absolute worst case scenario, you're still pulling even. The "dies to removal" argument for auras does not apply here.
As for the "win-more" comment, no, that is not what "win-more" means at all. You are essentially equating a card as "win-more" on whether or not it dies to removal, which, besides the fact that I've already explained why this is irrelevant, is also not what "win-more" means. Whether or not a card can die to removal has nothing to do with whether or not it is "win-more" - it has to do with board position. Using the OP's deck as an example, I would argue that Wild Pair or Martyr's Bond fit this criteria a lot better (For the record, I don't use Martyr's Bond for this exact reason. I am using Wild Pair currently but I am still on the fence on it). Gift, on the other hand, will help your board position regardless of if you are behind or ahead.
I play in a very competitive meta with Kaalia, Scion, Zur, Kruphix, Omnath, Momir, and other competitive generals. My Saffi deck is probably the most feared out of all of them, not only because I can combo out faster than them but because of how well it fights through disruption. Gift is a must-immediately answer card that will either give me an insurmountable lead or just outright win the game for me (Granted, so is about half of my deck).
Actually, Saffi is entirely combo-driven. My point is, it's how Saffi gets to the combo that's important. While other combo decks just tries to assemble combo pieces and win, or control the board state and win, Saffi combos out differently - since so many of the combo pieces also advance the board state, and since so many of the combo pieces works well together, and because the deck is so redundant and difficult to disrupt, all the deck really has to do is build its board state until it stumbles into the "oops, I win" moment. Not saying that's the only way it can win, but in more competitive metas, many games just end with Saffi just hitting critical mass and winning regardless of the disruption thrown her way.
This is why cards like Gift are really good - not only does it work very synergistically with the rest of the deck and help the deck hit critical mass, but it can combo out as well if needed.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W