Greater Good is really one of those cards that cannot be appreciated until a player witnesses its potential first hand. I completely understand your distaste for it as its applications are not really intuitive. I would recommend owning a copy at the very least, as the addition of one or two cards (like Titania) can completely warrant its inclusion.
Speaking of Titania, she has already warped my main group. Everyone wants to fit her in a deck now, and she is already one of the top threats at my local table. The last game I played, I played strictly for Titania. It was ridiculous the lengths the table went to in order to keep her off the table. It was slightly frustrating as it was hard to explore gamestates and new interactions involving her, but I am sure that it is a sign of her proving her worth. Literally EVERYTHING was thrown my way (including coffee cups) to keep her and the rest of the deck down.
**Activating Mirror Entity in response to Avenger landfall triggers is always fun.
I know how it is. My housemate plays, and his brother (who also plays) lives on the first floor of my building so I usually always have someone to play (or theorycraft with). Even with that being the case, there are times I go weeks to a month without playing. This time of the year they both do like 18 hour shifts at work, so my slow season for MTG is coming up.
It pairs with sunblast, has an etb and ltb effect, and can pseudo-self-sacrifice.
I won't run it in my list personally, because I have no-idea what to take out for it, but one of you guys might want to run it It seems pretty OK if you ask me.
It's not a terrible card or anything, but I think that Deadwood Treefolk is too low impact to deserve a slot. You get this effect (or something better) out of so many other cards in this deck; I don't think it's necessary to add another one at the cost of 6 and a card slot.
It pairs with sunblast, has an etb and ltb effect, and can pseudo-self-sacrifice.
I won't run it in my list personally, because I have no-idea what to take out for it, but one of you guys might want to run it It seems pretty OK if you ask me.
Gesam hit the nail right on the head. Its defiantly not wrong to run it, but it is low impact compared to the rest of the deck. Its a shame, as I do love deadwood treefolk.
I played 3 games with a list very close (3 cards different, nothing special) to the one Bederndern posted and every game I had 2-3 cards in hand mid and late game. Is the deck supposed to play like this? It's not that I've been overextending or anything... also, what's the deal with the dudes who exile on etb and bring back on ltb... is there any special application for them (apart from killing them with etb trigger on the stack)? Just looking for tips...
It really depends on game state. You should have more than 2 cards in hand at any given time. What this could mean is that you do not use Saffi triggers aggressively enough, as well as tutor targets are probably not the optimal choices. As for the CiP removal, they are also there to protect your board, or rebuy triggers. Fiend hunter is especially good, as he can go infinite in a far number of ways (if that is your plan).
EDIT: gma, you seem to take interest in a lot of my builds.. hahaha. how is the azusa list we worked on?
No problem. The deck is not as straight forward as it seems. Some of the applications of the cards catch a lot of players by surprise, and even the known applications are tough to apply in any given game scenario (due to being as wide open as they are). Even I miss a trigger or misplay from time to time, and I have 6 years with the deck.
Leonin Relic-Warder also has defensive uses, such as combating gods or other indestructible permanents, or indefinably exiling something. Its a card that may not be used often, but it invaluable when it is used. He bridges plays very well when leveraging something like a Duplicant or Austere Command (using the warder to protect something like a wild pair).
Everyone thought I was crazy when I pointed out the Azusa nerfs. I do miss her, but she will never be the same as she took some big hits to how she functions. At this point, Omnath is strictly better at the green ramp strategy. Another deck you may want to try is Wort, Boggart Auntie. She has been pretty good for me in the past few years. My list has major differences from other lists on this site (as I'm sure you figured, due to my radical building approach). She is very explosive, but my list is tailored to go long. I can PM you the list if Saffi does not work out for you.
Since you seem to want this thread to become a pissing competition between you and I, I guess its my turn.
EDH (and all of magic) is more of a science than you think. When you approach anything with the mindset of "solving" something, that's pretty much science. This is even more so the case when you approach the game with a competitive mindset. The game revolves around 7 card types, all of which will be present in any given meta. Putting together a list to combat the basics is not an impossible task. Getting that list to be the most effective and consistent list possible can be done through testing.... kind of like a.... scientific experiment?
Not dismissing "good cards" in a deck is criminal. Without the fortitude to go against the hive mind, there would never be any innovation in this world. What if Nikola Tesla just took everything Thomas Edison did as gospel? Then again, Lucifer went against the hive mind. We all know how that turned out... he got an empire. I guess that makes me Satan for not playing Sol Ring. Speaking of Sol ring, what exactly is your stance on it? Your statements contradict each other. You say they dont belong in the deck, yet my list is not optimal because I dont run it. As for my "snobbish dismissal" of "good cards", if you actually read posts, you would see that I also give lots of (snobbish) reasoning as to why I dont. I have given applications and in-game scenarios for just about every card I run. All I ask is that posters do the same for any changes they would like to discuss. If it has been discussed already (especially if covered in the OP), or suggested without context, it will be hastily dismissed as odds are I have played it in the deck extensively.
*Reiterating what the card does is not a valid application.
I have come to what I feel is the optimal Saffi list as a result of many factors. Some of these include countless hours of theorycrafting (with and without teammates), thousands of games over 6 years, and traveling across the sates with the deck, playing in vastly different metas. After playing magic for a length of time, you begin to notice trends. Decks are repetitious. The sligh decks of old operate the same way RDW does currently. If you played (or played against) sligh, you have a sense of how to play (or play against) RDW. All you have to do is apply the knowledge and technology. Another factor in why the list is considered the optimal list, is because it is built for Saffi, and then applied to the format, as opposed to just built for the format. This means full advantage is taken of the general in ways that effect known quantities of the format, both general and specific. Learning to pilot the list was a result of practice, not preference.
As for the references, you clearly have no knowledge of the format as there is constant innovation in vintage. You also completely miss the point in my example. In retrospect, I should have guessed that would be the case as you have missed the point on everything so far.
And yes, I do get all the chicks. Thank you for noticing. I'm sure it was that super relevant bachelor's in psychology that helped you draw that conclusion. I am also rather well endowed, in case you were wondering.
Now that I got that out of my system, something for the more sensible people of the thread.
After some games with Titania, I was surprised by how effective she was. I knew she would be good, but I did not think she would be as amazing as she was. It got me thinking about how people will approach her as a card outside of the context of this list, and I am a little worried. If she catches on, significant changes may have to be made. Personally, I have already started brewing some interesting RG based decks that use her in tandem with things like Keldon Firebombers, Sunstone and manlands (and land animating spells) to test against.
I didn't read any of this above. No need to when I've proven my point beautifully, and the person doesnt realize their ships been scuttled.
Anywho-
Having karmic guide (or any of the resurrectors) removed doesn't really matter to the deck, true. But you're only 1 card away from winning the game (greater good, altar of dementia), so you don't want to expose them to too much danger of removal.
I don't see Martyr's bond or Wild pair lasting too long, once your opponents get wise. I feel one could be replaced with idylic tutor to grab survival, greater good, pattern of rebirth to combo out faster albeit telegraphed.
Titania, with armageddon,global ruin, cataclysm, & catastrophe is basically GG now. This can be set-up as early as turn 5 and consistently on turns 6-10. Titania is a powerhouse and can be dropped with almost pure impunity with Saffi
I'll weigh in on Deadwood Tree-folk, I like the card, but I recently cut it myself. I agree with what Gesam said as well. Titania was a much better fit
Is anyone else experimenting with Hallowed Spiritkeeper? So far I'm finding it to be a useful addition, but I was just wondering what everyone else thought about it.
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No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
This has easily been one of the more interesting/useful/entertaining threads on this site.
Edited to add: Did you experiment with Sterling Grove at any point while making this deck? It's slow & expensive as a tutor, but extra protection for all those nice enchantments in GW doesn't hurt. I'm fond of the card, though I admit I'm not sure if it fits here or not.
This has easily been one of the more interesting/useful/entertaining threads on this site.
Edited to add: Did you experiment with Sterling Grove at any point while making this deck? It's slow & expensive as a tutor, but extra protection for all those nice enchantments in GW doesn't hurt. I'm fond of the card, though I admit I'm not sure if it fits here or not.
I'm not an expert on optimal, but sterling grove is solid. Thats's the beauty/diffculty of running Saffi, so many good cards to synergize with, the options become overwhelming
Turn 2: Saffi
Turn 3: Sterling grove - Tutor for pattern of rebirth
Turn 4: play pattern on Saffi, sacrifice Saffi at opponents EOT search for Sun Titan - Sun Titan bring back grove
Turn 5: Upkeep crack grove for greater good, draw/play greater good, attack with Sun Titan bring back Saffi = Saffi + Sun Titan + Greater Good = GG
I've won plenty of games like this, it's quick, hard to stop and it's basically 2 cards. You can bust that line of play at anytime during the game to win out of nowhere. It protects your stuff too - so all in all it has its upsides depending on the deck, the more enchatments you run the better it gets.
Hooray, I'm back! I have been in and out of the hospital and am pretty much recovered from my surgery (anesthesia is freakin scary!), so I should be posting again with more frequency.
I really like Hallowed Spiritkeeper, but I wish his stats were just a little different. It should accel in Stonecloaker/Masked Admierers builds. It has not been doing well in my current configuration and requires a pretty hefty commitment to your graveyard. He was one of the other 3 cards I had my eye on before the C14 release.
I also am a huge fan of Deadwood Tree-folk, but he is dated technology. Its Dope with sunblast Angel, but there really is no room for that synergy, as there are plenty of cards in the deck that can do the same trick.
Turn 2: Saffi
Turn 3: Sterling grove - Tutor for pattern of rebirth
Turn 4: play pattern on Saffi, sacrifice Saffi at opponents EOT search for Sun Titan - Sun Titan bring back grove
Turn 5: Upkeep crack grove for greater good, draw/play greater good, attack with Sun Titan bring back Saffi = Saffi + Sun Titan + Greater Good = GG
This line of play still needs an untap to win, and a lot can happen on turn 5-6. While it is a valid line of play, it is very all in (and not one I would recommend). Greed can win games, but this line has almost no "Plan B" if there is any interruption.
All in all, Sterling Grove Is not a bad inclusion. I was playing it when I ran my Aluren based list many years ago. As for now, I personally cannot afford to add in another narrow tutor (that requires a bit too much) as I lack the space. Sterling Grove really is a Strategy that should be built around if it is included.
Anyway... just a quick post to mark my return. Should be having a card night tomorrow. Im gonna try and get some play by play to report back with.
I don't have access to a number of the cards you use so I haven't been testing them (most of my EDH time is spent playing ‘real’ games where I can't proxy), but I wanted to say I've been super pleased with Wild Pair, a card I had previously dismissed as gimmicky & clunky because of the poor creature selection in the decks I had seen running it.
This line of play still needs an untap to win, and a lot can happen on turn 5-6. While it is a valid line of play, it is very all in (and not one I would recommend). Greed can win games, but this line has almost no "Plan B" if there is any interruption.
This is GG in my deck since I run mana crypt, draw until you get crypt then drop the altar. You don't have to pull it
as soon as possible, but it's rather easy once you have the oppourtunity i.e. opponents tapped out or no visible/perceived threats
but I wanted to say I've been super pleased with Wild Pair, a card I had previously dismissed as gimmicky & clunky because of the poor creature selection in the decks I had seen running it.
My thoughts exactly, haven't seen anyone play Wild Pair well, or anyone utterly destroy with it so I wrote it off. Tested a couple games strictly going for it, but found myself wanting greater good - maybe because I'm just better with that card. Hopefully when Bedernerdn gets better or has the time he can put up all the synergies & chains.
I don't have access to a number of the cards you use so I haven't been testing them (most of my EDH time is spent playing ‘real’ games where I can't proxy), but I wanted to say I've been super pleased with Wild Pair, a card I had previously dismissed as gimmicky & clunky because of the poor creature selection in the decks I had seen running it.
Thats the thing about Wild Pair... this deck is tuned to reap maximum value from it. Most gamestates can be handled off of almost any creature with it in play. Offensively, it can lock up a win off of just 1-2 triggers fairly often. When you start to link Wild Pair with other engines, it can get pretty bonkers.
My thoughts exactly, haven't seen anyone play Wild Pair well, or anyone utterly destroy with it so I wrote it off. Tested a couple games strictly going for it, but found myself wanting greater good - maybe because I'm just better with that card. Hopefully when Bedernerdn gets better or has the time he can put up all the synergies & chains.
You seem to appreciate Greater Good quite a bit, and I am very happy to see that people are starting to come around to it. I am curious as to how you are using it though. Is is strictly a combo piece for you, or are you using it for value as well?
As for the Wild Pair "primer", I will get around to that as soon as I can. I have fully recovered from my surgery (I may have to go back under the knife... I will find out mid January on my next follow up appointment), but work has been draining me. A large chunk of the kitchen staff at the restaurant I work at has been let go, so management has been relying on me to cover half the kitchen on a ludicrous schedule. Like, I would work a dinner service and then close the kitchen, only to come back and open it 4 hours later to prep for lunch/dinner the next day. Usually after that I am knocked out for 14 hours, and then I do it all over again I am going to try to get to starting it on Thursday afternoon.
The other big thing I wanted to mention, is Whisperwood Elemental. The card looks absolutely nuts for Saffi! I will jot some thoughts down about it in the next day or so. It looks like the nail in the coffin for the "top vs library" debate, haha. All I know is, people are going to flip tables when I start using Saffi to cheat Martyr's Bonds and crap into play! I personally think the card will make the cut, but I am curious to hear what the Saffi community thinks about it.
Personally, since there are only two auras in the deck, and I would need a sac outlet to go infinite with him (which I could already do with sun titan, reveillark, and karmic guide.) So what I see him as is a possible combo piece IF I have a sac outlet or on the other hand he's a way of searching a pattern of rebirth which I would rather just throw in another tutor in its place (like a chord of calling.) I mean the times that you would search up the pattern, you would have a sac outlet for him, but in that case you'd probs want to go infinite and instead grab the Gift of Immortality.
In my opinion it doesn't really do anything outside of the combo. :/
You seem to appreciate Greater Good quite a bit, and I am very happy to see that people are starting to come around to it. I am curious as to how you are using it though. Is is strictly a combo piece for you, or are you using it for value as well?
No Saffi deck is complete without GG lol. Depends on the game, in casual games I'll let the game unfold and use it for value with the prime targets being Yosei,Archon,& Knight of the Reliquary. In really competitve games I'm thinking 3-4 turns ahead to try to win. I like to do a Land Destruction win in 1 game, and a combo win in another game, to keep opponents off balance either over commiting or under commiting. Once people get a clue about how good Saffi is though, it really does become a race. But like you said Sharuum (and some other generals) can be torn apart just playing a natural fluid game.
The other big thing I wanted to mention, is Whisperwood Elemental. The card looks absolutely nuts for Saffi! I will jot some thoughts down about it in the next day or so. It looks like the nail in the coffin for the "top vs library" debate, haha. All I know is, people are going to flip tables when I start using Saffi to cheat Martyr's Bonds and crap into play! I personally think the card will make the cut, but I am curious to hear what the Saffi community thinks about it.
This card is bonkers in Saffi. Not an auto include in my deck just yet, but thinking of re-tooling for this guy's ability and awesome art. Have to see his speed level, seems unstoppable in long control games. If he can enable combos fast than he's got the green light. This guy is working with alot though - enlightend tutor, mirror entity, worldly tutor, sterling grove, gift of immortality, mirri's guile...etc. Saffi has definitly found a new playmate
Hey there. I noticed this, very cerebral approach to deckbuilding. I made my own Saffi list a year ago and just compared your to mine. Tho some of my choices are made because of my personal rule of never using a card twice in different decks (to allow for different play experience.) I had cards that were not included in your list. Tho some are silly flavorful picks, some of my choices raised a few valid questions:
Essentially, with a 41 creature count I think you can afford to run this. Tho you probably have tested it before in your 6 years playing the deck, i'm sure you had your reasons not to run it. Form me it is way more expensive, but has great blowout potential with the cheaply costed creatures in the deck. Surprise aven mindcensor or sylvan safekeeper, for example.
Nature's chosen Basically provides birthing pod synergy. But can be useful with other utility lands. Also gorgeous Rebecca Gay art
Sejiri steppe This is only supported with knight of the reliquary so probably too narrow for your optimized decklist, but the face of opponents when you pull it of is priceless for me.
That is all for now, leaving it out here for others looking at the thread and hoping to find some piece of tech for fun games.
Edit: After reading your resoning on page 1 for yavimaya granger, can't help but think Dawntreader elk is in that case, simply better. It has all the same interactions with the card mentioned, but interacts more favorably with gift of immortality or martyr's bond. It also 'unclogs' the 3CMC range. Also dodges torpor orb effects.
Boonweaver Giant combo:
It does what it does, but the problem is... thats really all that it does (if that makes any sense). Generally, the deck tries to avoid linear combos and interactions to improve card quality. While is is a way to win the game, the deck is not short of ways to do that (with parts that have high ceilings of applications outside of just comboing off).
Whisperwood Elemental
My brief testing of this card has left me unimpressed. It was not the bomb I thought it would be, but it IS solid. Some things I noticed are
-Excels with aggressive (Elesh Norn) builds/play.
-I never wanted to use a Saffi trigger on it. One activation of its sacrifice effect is all I could ever rationalize.
-It was strongest when I slow-rolled it, just getting the EOT triggers.
-It DOES do a good job of clearing away cards I wanted to see the least. I was able to sneak a few dirty things in to play with it as well.
-Even though I only run 6 non-permanent cards, getting one of them manifested HURTS.
-The higher casting cost creatures were never a problem to morph.
-He is actually a decent sac outlet, as your opponents pretty much always have to block due to the possibility of random blowouts in combat with things like mirror entity and attempting to tie up your mana.
All in all, my sample size is not large enough to really get a feel for the card. While it has not had an amazing showing, it still had enough going for it to make me want to try it out some more.
Essentially, with a 41 creature count I think you can afford to run this. Tho you probably have tested it before in your 6 years playing the deck, i'm sure you had your reasons not to run it. Form me it is way more expensive, but has great blowout potential with the cheaply costed creatures in the deck. Surprise aven mindcensor or sylvan safekeeper, for example.
I briefly discuss Chord of Calling earlier in the thread. Chord is a fine card, and I would never knock anyone for running it (I have used it in the past). There are a few little nuances that make Eladamri's call the better choice. Call works under Teeg, Chord cannot. Chord requires at least 3 creatures in play to be as efficient as Call, meaning Call is better at setting your game up. Turn 2 Call, in to turn 3 shenanigans happens with a fair degree of frequency. Cord cannot accomplish this. While Chord does have its applications (like tap as a sac outlet- tap a bunch of dudes to convoke it getting Sunblast Angel), I feel it is competing for the tooth and nail slot more than the eladamri's call slot... and tooth and nail is just WAYYYYY more value. I still have mine from back in the early days when I played it, just in case tooth and nail gets banned and protean hulk never comes off the banned list.
In some control heavy environment, I feel glare will not be stellar and a free pass to protect your graveyard would be better suited.
I beat up on control decks all the time, hahaha. I also prefer to cause my opponents to commit resources in misplaying their hate as opposed to just shutting off cards. As much as I love leyline, it is kind of like a set of training wheels in learning how to bait crypts, bogs and things of that nature.
This seals the game right there, usally, i'm thinking you don't run it because sun titangreater good seals the game just faster.
I used to do this with kamahl back when Elesh norn was released. The question is, would you ever really want natures revolt in play without elesh norn? I have a hard time believing that the answer to that is yes. Just like with boonweaver giant, the deck is in a better position when not playing with linear combos and interactions. Getting hit with a sadistic sacrament or bitter ordeal (/w gravestorm = anything more than 3) should be something to plan for.
Elesh Norn is something else I discuss all over this thread and several other Saffi threads. I strongly believe the deck does not need her as a control element or aggro element. There is also the the fact that I do my best to not run things in my deck that would shut it down. A Bribery or reanimation spell for Elesh Norn is bad news for Saffi, espescially if it is your own Elesh Norn.
Nature's chosen Basically provides birthing pod synergy. But can be useful with other utility lands. Also gorgeous Rebecca Gay art
Sejiri steppe This is only supported with knight of the reliquary so probably too narrow for your optimized decklist, but the face of opponents when you pull it of is priceless for me.
That is all for now, leaving it out here for others looking at the thread and hoping to find some piece of tech for fun games.
Edit: After reading your resoning on page 1 for yavimaya granger, can't help but think Dawntreader elk is in that case, simply better. It has all the same interactions with the card mentioned, but interacts more favorably with gift of immortality or martyr's bond. It also 'unclogs' the 3CMC range. Also dodges torpor orb effects.
Scryb Ranger:
Believe it or not, this is a card I am looking to fit back in to the deck. I ran it back in the day (2011-ish), but it got lost in the mix when I was doing biannual overhauls of the deck. The major factor in it not finding its way back in, is how tight on forests the deck runs. Other than that, I can say it does have a fair number of uses. Being a sac-outlet and an out against MLD type decks were some of my favorite.
Natures Chosen:
Interesting. Congratulations on finding a card I have never played in the deck! hahaha.
Sejiri Steppe:
I always found this land to be clunky in the deck. Its great that it works for you.
Dawntreader Elk:
I have always had a big problem with its activation cost in games. Paying to use it is a significant strike against it. The fact that it has to be a green mana makes it worse. Than again, thats just my experience with the card.
Personal update:
I have taken on the task of obtaining a copy of everything remotely playable in Saffi. This is going to be a fun quest!
It's 3 mana vs 3 mana, the ONLY difference is the extra green for the Elk. Is it that much of a burden on a 2 color deck with access to two double lands FAIRLY easily that it outweighs the extra potential to time it with martyr's bond and it's obvious potential with gift of immortality turning it nearly into a second sakura-tribe elder? Adds flexibility to get over torpor orb effects while others in the deck get over linvala effects. I think passively stacking the 7 plains automatic plan even when plays are available with the elk is forgetting the elk can reach in and get more plains as needed. Also turn 2 elk has more synergy with a lotus cobra in hand, setting up a turn3 5 mana turn, something the granger cannot achieve. Maybe I am overthinking this, but the only flaw is the 1GG cost, that's it.
Saffi was my first commander, and I've played her for a while now with various decklists. Super-fun deck, with great interactions. My deck is built more to use board-wipe as a control factor since Saffi has such good recovery and value. So I have about 6-7 wrath type effects in the deck that can wipe the slate clean. My finishes vary, maybe 20-30% combo kills vs. 70-80% soft-lock damage kills. So some questions I had for other Saffi players:
- I'm curious about this decklist, since it seems to run more disruption creatures like teeg, canonist, revoker, without any mass removal. Has anyone playing this tried more wrath effects instead of these guys? It may depend on how combo-based your meta is (mine is less so) how successful this strategy is. Personally, I don't run any of these creatures.
- How do you usually kill opponents? This decklist seems to have fewer sac outlets than what I like to run (I add phyrexian altar, blasting station), because I often found myself assembling saffi+titan/lark/guide without a good enough ways to take advantage of the recursion. I haven't tried the altar of dementia because it didn't seem quite as useful without the combo assembled, but maybe there's an upside I'm overlooking. Anyways, from the primer I wasn't really sure how often the deck was designed to combo-finish vs. kill-finish. I tend to favor the latter because I think it's more fun.
- Anyone had success with planeswalkers in their build? I've run Gideon Jura for a few years and found him to be pretty handy. He doesn't draw a huge amount of hate, but he can be pretty disruptive and is usually good for at least one kill. I've tinkered with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Elspeth, Knight-Errant before and found them to be alright, but not overwhelming. I know planeswalkers are generally weaker in multiplayer, but maybe some 1v1 builds are running something interesting.
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Speaking of Titania, she has already warped my main group. Everyone wants to fit her in a deck now, and she is already one of the top threats at my local table. The last game I played, I played strictly for Titania. It was ridiculous the lengths the table went to in order to keep her off the table. It was slightly frustrating as it was hard to explore gamestates and new interactions involving her, but I am sure that it is a sign of her proving her worth. Literally EVERYTHING was thrown my way (including coffee cups) to keep her and the rest of the deck down.
**Activating Mirror Entity in response to Avenger landfall triggers is always fun.
So now all of your creatures get the +1/+1 counter because mirror entity gives them the plant creature type.
I haven't been able to play mtg at all for about 2 months though >_>
What are your thoughts on Deadwood Treefolk everyone?
It pairs with sunblast, has an etb and ltb effect, and can pseudo-self-sacrifice.
I won't run it in my list personally, because I have no-idea what to take out for it, but one of you guys might want to run it It seems pretty OK if you ask me.
Gesam hit the nail right on the head. Its defiantly not wrong to run it, but it is low impact compared to the rest of the deck. Its a shame, as I do love deadwood treefolk.
It really depends on game state. You should have more than 2 cards in hand at any given time. What this could mean is that you do not use Saffi triggers aggressively enough, as well as tutor targets are probably not the optimal choices. As for the CiP removal, they are also there to protect your board, or rebuy triggers. Fiend hunter is especially good, as he can go infinite in a far number of ways (if that is your plan).
EDIT: gma, you seem to take interest in a lot of my builds.. hahaha. how is the azusa list we worked on?
Leonin Relic-Warder also has defensive uses, such as combating gods or other indestructible permanents, or indefinably exiling something. Its a card that may not be used often, but it invaluable when it is used. He bridges plays very well when leveraging something like a Duplicant or Austere Command (using the warder to protect something like a wild pair).
Everyone thought I was crazy when I pointed out the Azusa nerfs. I do miss her, but she will never be the same as she took some big hits to how she functions. At this point, Omnath is strictly better at the green ramp strategy. Another deck you may want to try is Wort, Boggart Auntie. She has been pretty good for me in the past few years. My list has major differences from other lists on this site (as I'm sure you figured, due to my radical building approach). She is very explosive, but my list is tailored to go long. I can PM you the list if Saffi does not work out for you.
**Congratulations on the second kid!
I didn't read any of this above. No need to when I've proven my point beautifully, and the person doesnt realize their ships been scuttled.
Anywho-
Having karmic guide (or any of the resurrectors) removed doesn't really matter to the deck, true. But you're only 1 card away from winning the game (greater good, altar of dementia), so you don't want to expose them to too much danger of removal.
I don't see Martyr's bond or Wild pair lasting too long, once your opponents get wise. I feel one could be replaced with idylic tutor to grab survival, greater good, pattern of rebirth to combo out faster albeit telegraphed.
Titania, with armageddon,global ruin, cataclysm, & catastrophe is basically GG now. This can be set-up as early as turn 5 and consistently on turns 6-10. Titania is a powerhouse and can be dropped with almost pure impunity with Saffi
Is anyone else experimenting with Hallowed Spiritkeeper? So far I'm finding it to be a useful addition, but I was just wondering what everyone else thought about it.
Edited to add: Did you experiment with Sterling Grove at any point while making this deck? It's slow & expensive as a tutor, but extra protection for all those nice enchantments in GW doesn't hurt. I'm fond of the card, though I admit I'm not sure if it fits here or not.
I'm not an expert on optimal, but sterling grove is solid. Thats's the beauty/diffculty of running Saffi, so many good cards to synergize with, the options become overwhelming
Turn 2: Saffi
Turn 3: Sterling grove - Tutor for pattern of rebirth
Turn 4: play pattern on Saffi, sacrifice Saffi at opponents EOT search for Sun Titan - Sun Titan bring back grove
Turn 5: Upkeep crack grove for greater good, draw/play greater good, attack with Sun Titan bring back Saffi = Saffi + Sun Titan + Greater Good = GG
I've won plenty of games like this, it's quick, hard to stop and it's basically 2 cards. You can bust that line of play at anytime during the game to win out of nowhere. It protects your stuff too - so all in all it has its upsides depending on the deck, the more enchatments you run the better it gets.
I really like Hallowed Spiritkeeper, but I wish his stats were just a little different. It should accel in Stonecloaker/Masked Admierers builds. It has not been doing well in my current configuration and requires a pretty hefty commitment to your graveyard. He was one of the other 3 cards I had my eye on before the C14 release.
I also am a huge fan of Deadwood Tree-folk, but he is dated technology. Its Dope with sunblast Angel, but there really is no room for that synergy, as there are plenty of cards in the deck that can do the same trick.
This line of play still needs an untap to win, and a lot can happen on turn 5-6. While it is a valid line of play, it is very all in (and not one I would recommend). Greed can win games, but this line has almost no "Plan B" if there is any interruption.
All in all, Sterling Grove Is not a bad inclusion. I was playing it when I ran my Aluren based list many years ago. As for now, I personally cannot afford to add in another narrow tutor (that requires a bit too much) as I lack the space. Sterling Grove really is a Strategy that should be built around if it is included.
Anyway... just a quick post to mark my return. Should be having a card night tomorrow. Im gonna try and get some play by play to report back with.
This is GG in my deck since I run mana crypt, draw until you get crypt then drop the altar. You don't have to pull it
as soon as possible, but it's rather easy once you have the oppourtunity i.e. opponents tapped out or no visible/perceived threats
My thoughts exactly, haven't seen anyone play Wild Pair well, or anyone utterly destroy with it so I wrote it off. Tested a couple games strictly going for it, but found myself wanting greater good - maybe because I'm just better with that card. Hopefully when Bedernerdn gets better or has the time he can put up all the synergies & chains.
Thats the thing about Wild Pair... this deck is tuned to reap maximum value from it. Most gamestates can be handled off of almost any creature with it in play. Offensively, it can lock up a win off of just 1-2 triggers fairly often. When you start to link Wild Pair with other engines, it can get pretty bonkers.
You seem to appreciate Greater Good quite a bit, and I am very happy to see that people are starting to come around to it. I am curious as to how you are using it though. Is is strictly a combo piece for you, or are you using it for value as well?
As for the Wild Pair "primer", I will get around to that as soon as I can. I have fully recovered from my surgery (I may have to go back under the knife... I will find out mid January on my next follow up appointment), but work has been draining me. A large chunk of the kitchen staff at the restaurant I work at has been let go, so management has been relying on me to cover half the kitchen on a ludicrous schedule. Like, I would work a dinner service and then close the kitchen, only to come back and open it 4 hours later to prep for lunch/dinner the next day. Usually after that I am knocked out for 14 hours, and then I do it all over again I am going to try to get to starting it on Thursday afternoon.
The other big thing I wanted to mention, is Whisperwood Elemental. The card looks absolutely nuts for Saffi! I will jot some thoughts down about it in the next day or so. It looks like the nail in the coffin for the "top vs library" debate, haha. All I know is, people are going to flip tables when I start using Saffi to cheat Martyr's Bonds and crap into play! I personally think the card will make the cut, but I am curious to hear what the Saffi community thinks about it.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
In my opinion it doesn't really do anything outside of the combo. :/
No Saffi deck is complete without GG lol. Depends on the game, in casual games I'll let the game unfold and use it for value with the prime targets being Yosei,Archon,& Knight of the Reliquary. In really competitve games I'm thinking 3-4 turns ahead to try to win. I like to do a Land Destruction win in 1 game, and a combo win in another game, to keep opponents off balance either over commiting or under commiting. Once people get a clue about how good Saffi is though, it really does become a race. But like you said Sharuum (and some other generals) can be torn apart just playing a natural fluid game.
I agree with Oreko for the most part.
But in a dedicated Saffi combo deck (Idyllic tutor, plea for guidance, sterling grove, fierce empath, and others) This guy can be pretty house
This card is bonkers in Saffi. Not an auto include in my deck just yet, but thinking of re-tooling for this guy's ability and awesome art. Have to see his speed level, seems unstoppable in long control games. If he can enable combos fast than he's got the green light. This guy is working with alot though - enlightend tutor, mirror entity, worldly tutor, sterling grove, gift of immortality, mirri's guile...etc. Saffi has definitly found a new playmate
Eladamri's call vs Chord of calling
Essentially, with a 41 creature count I think you can afford to run this. Tho you probably have tested it before in your 6 years playing the deck, i'm sure you had your reasons not to run it. Form me it is way more expensive, but has great blowout potential with the cheaply costed creatures in the deck. Surprise aven mindcensor or sylvan safekeeper, for example.
Leyline of sanctity as a flex enchantment choice over glare of subdual.
In some control heavy environment, I feel glare will not be stellar and a free pass to protect your graveyard would be better suited.
Nature's revolt elesh norn, grand cenobite combo, triggered off a pattern of rebirth or academy rector.
This seals the game right there, usally, i'm thinking you don't run it because sun titan greater good seals the game just faster.
As for the rest, I am running silly choices that are different in the creature spot, but I feel I should point out a few of my honorable mentions:
scryb ranger This was mainly for adarkar valkyrie to be noted that it also helps your fauna shaman and knight of the reliquary I also run devoted caretaker so it helps it out.
Nature's chosen Basically provides birthing pod synergy. But can be useful with other utility lands. Also gorgeous Rebecca Gay art
Sejiri steppe This is only supported with knight of the reliquary so probably too narrow for your optimized decklist, but the face of opponents when you pull it of is priceless for me.
That is all for now, leaving it out here for others looking at the thread and hoping to find some piece of tech for fun games.
Edit: After reading your resoning on page 1 for yavimaya granger, can't help but think Dawntreader elk is in that case, simply better. It has all the same interactions with the card mentioned, but interacts more favorably with gift of immortality or martyr's bond. It also 'unclogs' the 3CMC range. Also dodges torpor orb effects.
It does what it does, but the problem is... thats really all that it does (if that makes any sense). Generally, the deck tries to avoid linear combos and interactions to improve card quality. While is is a way to win the game, the deck is not short of ways to do that (with parts that have high ceilings of applications outside of just comboing off).
Whisperwood Elemental
My brief testing of this card has left me unimpressed. It was not the bomb I thought it would be, but it IS solid. Some things I noticed are
-Excels with aggressive (Elesh Norn) builds/play.
-I never wanted to use a Saffi trigger on it. One activation of its sacrifice effect is all I could ever rationalize.
-It was strongest when I slow-rolled it, just getting the EOT triggers.
-It DOES do a good job of clearing away cards I wanted to see the least. I was able to sneak a few dirty things in to play with it as well.
-Even though I only run 6 non-permanent cards, getting one of them manifested HURTS.
-The higher casting cost creatures were never a problem to morph.
-He is actually a decent sac outlet, as your opponents pretty much always have to block due to the possibility of random blowouts in combat with things like mirror entity and attempting to tie up your mana.
All in all, my sample size is not large enough to really get a feel for the card. While it has not had an amazing showing, it still had enough going for it to make me want to try it out some more.
I briefly discuss Chord of Calling earlier in the thread. Chord is a fine card, and I would never knock anyone for running it (I have used it in the past). There are a few little nuances that make Eladamri's call the better choice. Call works under Teeg, Chord cannot. Chord requires at least 3 creatures in play to be as efficient as Call, meaning Call is better at setting your game up. Turn 2 Call, in to turn 3 shenanigans happens with a fair degree of frequency. Cord cannot accomplish this. While Chord does have its applications (like tap as a sac outlet- tap a bunch of dudes to convoke it getting Sunblast Angel), I feel it is competing for the tooth and nail slot more than the eladamri's call slot... and tooth and nail is just WAYYYYY more value. I still have mine from back in the early days when I played it, just in case tooth and nail gets banned and protean hulk never comes off the banned list.
I beat up on control decks all the time, hahaha. I also prefer to cause my opponents to commit resources in misplaying their hate as opposed to just shutting off cards. As much as I love leyline, it is kind of like a set of training wheels in learning how to bait crypts, bogs and things of that nature.
I used to do this with kamahl back when Elesh norn was released. The question is, would you ever really want natures revolt in play without elesh norn? I have a hard time believing that the answer to that is yes. Just like with boonweaver giant, the deck is in a better position when not playing with linear combos and interactions. Getting hit with a sadistic sacrament or bitter ordeal (/w gravestorm = anything more than 3) should be something to plan for.
Elesh Norn is something else I discuss all over this thread and several other Saffi threads. I strongly believe the deck does not need her as a control element or aggro element. There is also the the fact that I do my best to not run things in my deck that would shut it down. A Bribery or reanimation spell for Elesh Norn is bad news for Saffi, espescially if it is your own Elesh Norn.
Scryb Ranger:
Believe it or not, this is a card I am looking to fit back in to the deck. I ran it back in the day (2011-ish), but it got lost in the mix when I was doing biannual overhauls of the deck. The major factor in it not finding its way back in, is how tight on forests the deck runs. Other than that, I can say it does have a fair number of uses. Being a sac-outlet and an out against MLD type decks were some of my favorite.
Natures Chosen:
Interesting. Congratulations on finding a card I have never played in the deck! hahaha.
Sejiri Steppe:
I always found this land to be clunky in the deck. Its great that it works for you.
Dawntreader Elk:
I have always had a big problem with its activation cost in games. Paying to use it is a significant strike against it. The fact that it has to be a green mana makes it worse. Than again, thats just my experience with the card.
Personal update:
I have taken on the task of obtaining a copy of everything remotely playable in Saffi. This is going to be a fun quest!
It's 3 mana vs 3 mana, the ONLY difference is the extra green for the Elk. Is it that much of a burden on a 2 color deck with access to two double lands FAIRLY easily that it outweighs the extra potential to time it with martyr's bond and it's obvious potential with gift of immortality turning it nearly into a second sakura-tribe elder? Adds flexibility to get over torpor orb effects while others in the deck get over linvala effects. I think passively stacking the 7 plains automatic plan even when plays are available with the elk is forgetting the elk can reach in and get more plains as needed. Also turn 2 elk has more synergy with a lotus cobra in hand, setting up a turn3 5 mana turn, something the granger cannot achieve. Maybe I am overthinking this, but the only flaw is the 1GG cost, that's it.
- I'm curious about this decklist, since it seems to run more disruption creatures like teeg, canonist, revoker, without any mass removal. Has anyone playing this tried more wrath effects instead of these guys? It may depend on how combo-based your meta is (mine is less so) how successful this strategy is. Personally, I don't run any of these creatures.
- How do you usually kill opponents? This decklist seems to have fewer sac outlets than what I like to run (I add phyrexian altar, blasting station), because I often found myself assembling saffi+titan/lark/guide without a good enough ways to take advantage of the recursion. I haven't tried the altar of dementia because it didn't seem quite as useful without the combo assembled, but maybe there's an upside I'm overlooking. Anyways, from the primer I wasn't really sure how often the deck was designed to combo-finish vs. kill-finish. I tend to favor the latter because I think it's more fun.
- Anyone had success with planeswalkers in their build? I've run Gideon Jura for a few years and found him to be pretty handy. He doesn't draw a huge amount of hate, but he can be pretty disruptive and is usually good for at least one kill. I've tinkered with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Elspeth, Knight-Errant before and found them to be alright, but not overwhelming. I know planeswalkers are generally weaker in multiplayer, but maybe some 1v1 builds are running something interesting.