Abzan? Rock? Junk? These words are nice and all, but they just don't do justice. They don't define what this monstrosity of a deck is well enough. To put it simply, this is Karador, and its now time for everyone to die!
Preface
First of all, I want to say that this thread is being aimed to be a Primer for Karador lists. I will be spending time fix up my OP to look nicer, but I must say that I am not well versed in coding and proper thread design. So, if someone would like to help me out with that, shoot me a PM or something.
Meet the Pilot
Who am I? Huh, well, if you really must know, my name is Tony. I'm from down in Louisiana and I've been playing M:TG since Dissension was released (that's 06 for those of you who don't know). My first deck was actually a Kamigawa one, the spirit tribal starter deck with Iname in it. It was BG and a reanimator deck. Once I moved into standard, I started playing a wierd 4 color but mostly Golgari deck. Yeah, it was weird because it's main wincon was Witch-Maw Nephilim.
Anyways, I continued on through Lorwynn, all the way up to the end of the Shards of Alara block playing standard competitively. I did well in my local tourneys, but never did make it to the big ones. Oh well. So, with my years of Magic expertise, you can trust in that I know what I'm talking about.
The deck has changed a bit, but here is my updated list. The list I will be sharing in the OP is not meant to be the definitive Karador deck, nor especially competitive. It is definitely not T1 roflstomp da nubz, but it's not something that will just roll over. I will take time to discuss deck styles, specific cards, and anything else relating to Karador decks in general.
Why Karador?
You may be asking why not run another general instead of Karador? What does he have that other commanders don't?
Well, first, let's go over the things that he can do for us:
First of all, he is WBG.
White gives us: Creature control in the forms of spot removal and mass removal. It also gives us ways to deal with problematic permanents in the form of Archon of Justice and Ashen Rider. Most of white's removal in this deck is based around exile. I can't tell you how important that is. White also gives us the ability to search out our important enchantments. Lastly, it gives us some really good reanimation spells.
Black gives us: Tutors, creature removal, reanimation, and one of our most important pieces, Mike.
Green gives us: Ramp, creature tutors, artifact and enchantment removal, and quite a few useful utility guys.
With the above package, we are able to search for what we need, remove what's in our way, play powerful creatures, reanimate said creatures, and ramp.
Next, we have his body. 3/4 isn't very strong, and definitely not something you wanna cast if you can't utilize his ability to reduce his mana. Needless to say, he's not very strong himself for a voltron strategy.
Then, you have his two abilities. The first one reduces his cost by 1 for each creature in your graveyard which also includes commander tax. Sooooo...very often you'll be casting him for just WBG. His second ability allows you once per turn during your turn to cast a creature from your graveyard. This is exactly why you play K-Dor, so that you can reuse your dudes that have been offed. One a turn may not seem like much, but it can be absolutely back breaking.
So, why not run another similar commander? Well, let's take a look at each one and see why not, shall we?
Teneb, the Harvester
I believe he was the first ever Abzan commander, please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, his is similar to Karador in that he can reanimate creatures, and he can hit something out of any yard. However, he must first connect with a swing after which you must pay the low cost of 2B. Well, that's not too bad, especially since he has flying, right? Well, not exactly. See, he costs 3WBG, which is a lot, even in commander. To make things even worse, there's not a lot of haste givers in our colors, so quite often you may play him and he will get removed before he can do anything.
Chainer, Dementia Master
Well, first off he's mono B. I'm not very big on mono black. I feel like in EDH being restricted to only one color is even more of a liability than in other formats. Anyways, over he's not a bad commander, but starting at 5 mana can be rough if opponents decide to remove him. His ability to yoink dudes out of any yard at instant speed for a low cost of BBB is quite strong though.
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
The most recent competitor in the reanimation style, Meren seems to be even more grindy than Karador to me. She loses out on many of the powerful white cards that form the back bone of my deck, but I can see her being viable in low removal groups. She's as close to Karador as you could possibly get I feel without having W.
So why would you play Karador?
-You like playing a grindier game of MtG
-You like sacrificing a lot of guys
-You like having multiple paths to victories
-You having many ways to stop opponents
Why would you not play Karador?
-You like faster games of MtG
-You want to win the same way each turn
-You don't like playing policeman
-You don't like reactive decks
Core Cards
This deck is built in a specific way with a few cards kept in mind. In my opinion, if you want to build Karador in a grindy fashion, the deck just isn't complete without these cards.
These eight cards form the pillar of my deck. If any of these were to be cut the deck would lose a tremendous amount of power. There is absolutely nothing that could be replaced by them (as of yet).
Card By Card Breakdown
Birthing Pod
One of the deck defining and core cards of the list. Even one activation of this card can swing the game around in your favor quite easily. If it makes it around to three or more activations you should definitely win. Mana Crypt
Easily the best mana accel in the deck. Oblivion Stone
A wipe that hits all nonland permanents and can be brought back by Sun Titan if you need to wipe again. Phyrexian Altar
Mostly used as a combo piece, however it's not totally useless on its own as you can sacrifice your utility dorks or Bitterblossom tokens to get a little bit of ramp. Scroll Rack
In my opinion this thing is even better than Top. In the early game this card makes questionable hands easier to keep. Along with all our shuffling this thing can generate insane card advantage. Skullclamp
This thing will kill a lot of our utility dorks to draw us some cards. Has insane synergy with Bloodghast and Call the Bloodline. Sol Ring
Not as good as Mana Crypt, but still undeniably strong.
Archon of Justice
5 mana for a decently sized flying beater. Use him as a roadblock for your opponents or turn him into a soft lock to exile the most threatening thing your opponents control.
Ashen Rider
Basically the big sister to Archon of Justice. Even without all the reanimation shenanigans she is powerful enough to swing the game into your favor. Far too easy to get 4 exiles or more a turn with her.
Aven Mindcensor
This cheap bird puts quite a hamper on arguably the most powerful tool any deck can possess. From hamstringing fetchlands to making it impossible to searching that last combo piece, this bird can really screw over your opponents and all at instant speed.
Bloodghast
The most simple self recurring creature there. I prefer him over things like Reassembling Skeleton because he takes no mana to utilize, and in the later stages of the game he can be rezzed multiple times thanks to our ramp creatures. Obvious synergy with Skullclamp
Disciple of Bolas
One of the strongest card advantage engines in the deck, second only to Greater Good. The life gain isn't inconsequential either.
Eldrazi Displacer
Loves Sun Titan and so many more of our guys, and can also brick wall attackers. With eleven sources of C you shouldn't have problems using it.
Eternal Witness
A staple in EDH for a reason. The ability to get back any card in your graveyard cannot be underestimated. She can be abused with Wake the Dead, allowing you to continually recast it.
False Prophet
One of the best ways to keep aggro players from destroying you. This card is absolutely the most abused creature in the entire list since he exiles all creatures.
Fiend Hunter
I almost never use this guy fairly. I can sacrifice him in response to his first trigger, allowing us to permanently exile a target. Or, I can utilize him in combos or even get a second use out of a etb/ltb trigger.
Fierce Empath
Searches out Sun Titan, Mike, Yosei and Ashen Rider.
Grim Haruspex
This guy can easily allow us to draw our whole deck when we start to combo. Even outside of that scenario he's still good and I prefer him over Harvester of Souls because of the lower mana cost.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper
Mostly this guy is used as a combo piece, but the fact that he creates a good sized army of flying blockers that also play well Skullclamp is nothing to laugh at.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Another creature form wipe. This deck has quite a bit of card advantage so it's not difficult to keep him large.
Karmic Guide
One of the big three. Etbs to rezz any creature in our yard and even sacrifices itself next turn so that you bring it back. Combos infinitely with Reveillark.
Leonin Relic-Warder
Exactly the same as Fiend Hunter, I rarely play this guy fairly. Unfortunately, I don't know of any ways to actually abuse him, but doesn't matter. His main purpose is to deal with gods.
Matter Reshaper Coiling Oracle is green cuz its envious of this guy! In the early game you get CA, in the late game you put half of your deck onto the field, the other half into your hand. Absolutely crazy card.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Another core card of the deck that really pushes our sacrifice chains into overdrive.
Mindslicer
His dies trigger honestly doesn't hurt us as much as it does the rest of the table. Keep in mind that if you sacrifice him to any card advantage other than Disciple of Bolas, his own trigger will resolve first before you get those cards into your hand. With skullclamp, you can stack the triggers so that you draw your cards after his own resolves.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist
The creature side fetches us a forest, while the PW side keeps us going with the gas it provides. If you can protect her you might be able to ult her to win, but I'd prefer to just keep drawing.
Qasali Pridemage
Our only creature based removal that gets rid of Torpor Orb. Sometimes he can make a dork or himself big enough to swing for a bit of damage as well.
Recruiter of the Guard
This guy is hands down amazing. Another tutor that each of the big three can bring back that even grabs two of the three! He's also clampable and tutors for over half of our deck! Absolutely made for Karador.
Reveillark
The second of the big three. He can only grab our utility dorks, but is worth it since he grabs two at a time rather than just one. Needless to say he combos infinitely with Karmic Guide.
Saffi Eriksdotter
Low mana cost way to get a second use of a etb/dies/ltb effect if you have a sac outlet. Combos with Loyal Retainers, but you still need something extra to make it worth it like Blood Artist or Grim Haruspex.
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Offs himself to search out a basic. Not much to say on this guy.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Usually I make her exploit herself so that I can rez her later. Her first tutor normally isn't that strong, but once you are able to rezz her multiple times she becomes very powerful.
Sun Titan
The last member of the big three. He can bring back our fetchlands, many of our artifacts and enchantents, and the majority of our creatures. He also has a few infinite combos you can utilize as well. This guy is just pure value.
Tireless Tracker
Low cost critter that draws us cards for little investment and can even grow into a respectable beater. What's not to love?
Viscera Seer
One mana sac outlet that functions as pseudo card advantage. A pity its so rare that you can pod into him.
Wood Elves
The absolute best mana ramp creature. It can grab our duals, shocks and Murmuring Bosk. Also plays well with Skullclamp.
Yosei, the Morning Star
A powerful way to lock people out of the game when you've got a rezz engine set up.
Zulaport Cutthroat
Better than Bloodartist since it doesn't exactly draw the ire of the table in the early game. It doesn't matter that it only procs off our own creatures, it still does the same thing.
Animate Dead
A low mana cost way to rez one a guy out of ANY yard. Sun Titan can bring it back as well, so it's one of the key cards in the deck if you ask me. With this and Necromancy in your yard you can infinitely abuse Sun Titan.
Attrition
Sac our guys to kill their guys? Sounds good, right?
Call the Bloodline
In our deck, this is arguably better than Bitterblossom since it allows us to pitch cards to reanimate later. Currently testing it, but my gut tells me its going to stay.
Dance of the Dead
Basically a weaker version of Animate Dead, but even that is quite powerful. It was either this or Angelic Renewal and that card has such an awful timing restriction.
Evolutionary Leap
Leaping guys that have already done their thing sounds like a good plan, right? Very nice since it's a low cost source of card advantage.
Greater Good
An absolute house in this list. Sacrificing your guys to draw a lot, then pitch three is just amazing.
Necromancy
Same thing as Animate Dead, but has the option to be flashed in. In my opinion this is the most powerful reanimation spell in EDH since it has flash and can be abused with Sun Titan.
Pernicious Deed
Our second permanent based wipe that Sun Titan can bring back.
Sylvan Library
The absolute best card advantage engine in the deck. If you get a turn one Vampiric or Enlightened Tutor then 9 out of 10 times this is the correct card to grab.
Anguished Unmaking
I prefer this over Vindicate because of the instant speed. Being one mana cheaper than Utter End makes it superior to it as well. 3 life is nothing.
Corpse Dance
Instant speed reanimation is nothing to scoff at. While it is very narrow in what it can get back it's still relatively easy to play around. You shouldn't cast it without being able to buy it back and sacrifice the creature, but sometimes you have no choice. Goes infinite with Hallowed Spiritkeeper and Phyrexian Altar.
Eladamri's Call
Cheap creature tutor that puts it into your hand.
Enlightened Tutor
Many of our key cards are enchantments or artifacts, so this thing is very strong.
Entomb
Trying to figure out what to entomb in the early game can be tricky, but in the late game it should be easy to pick out a target.
Nature's Claim G to destroy an artifact or enchantment? This is the cream of the crop for handling those permanents.
Path to Exile
The second spot removal for creatures.
Vampiric Tutor
Easily makes your questionable hands keepers and in the late game grabs anything you need to win.
Wake the Dead
This is by far the most powerful instant in the deck, easily turning the game around for you, even winning the game in most cases. Paired with Eternal Witness you can do it over and over again.
Auster Command
The most expensive non creature card in the deck, but it wipes so much stuff and is even selective in what it gets rid of. Easy to make this not hurt you at all.
Eldritch Evolution
Basically a one time use of Birthing Pod. Even if you only get one use its quite powerful at just that.
Farseek
This used to be Nature's Lore but since we already have that in the next card below, figured I'd slot in something that can grab the other half of our duals/shocks.
Three Visits
Exactly the same thing as Nature's Lore.
Toxic Deluge
Variable wipe for ony three mana. In my eyes this is now an auto include.
4 Forests (more of these for Nissa)
3 Plains
2 Swamps
5 fetches
Each of the shocks, duals, and filter lands in our colors Command Tower and Murmuring Bosk as all three color lands
Bojuka Bog
Land based grave hate. Auto include since it's pretty much no cost to your list.
High Market
Another land based sac outlet and is the second best one in the deck.
Horizon Canopy
Another landbased card advantage engine. Pair it with Sun Titan to have your engine going.
Mirrorpool
Absolutely LOVES Sun Titan! Of course, it loves the majority of our creatures anyways, and it can certainly be utilized along with some of our spells in a pinch.
Phyrexian Tower
The best landbased sac outlet. It allows us to ramp by one additional mana per turn.
Strip Mine
Combined with Sun Titan you can slowly take your opponents out of the game.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Mostly for manafixing. It's possible to just pull it out, but I kind of want to keep it for now.
Wasteland
Not as strong as Strip Mine, but can still take care of problematic lands. Obvious synergy with Sun Titan.
Westvale Abbey / Ormendahl, Profane Prince
Token maker and a significant beater on a land? And it serves as, if conditional, sac outlet? Currently testing, but I love the idea of it!
Birthing Pod Chains
Birthing Pod gives the deck quite a bit of flexibility, allowing us to off a guy (possibly triggering dies/ltb effects) to go find another that costs one more mana. As such, I have kept some key creatures at every cmc that are valuable in some manner.
Nice list. How does it play?
The key to this deck is controlling your opponents and not overextending your graveyard. A lot of our guys blow permanents so we're a very reactive creature based deck. Those, combined with our spot removal, makes it very difficult to just steal a win out of nowhere.
Your actual role in the game, that is until you're ready to win, is to play policeman. Someone dropped out something nasty? Blow it up! Try to play more reactive in the early phases, so that people don't get too suspicious of you and leave you alone while you build. Only answer cards at instant speed (if you can) and only if it's TRULY a threat to you (of course, blowing up something that is dangerous to other players may have some very nice benefits).
Over half the creatures aren’t threats alone and there is usually something scarier out. Most of the dudes blow stuff up or act as utility in another way, so wasting removal or attacking us isn’t going to be most of the table’s number one priority. Being able to read your opponents and know when the right time to act is key, this is staying invisible.
This deck is extremely resilient. The majority of our answers can be recurred by any of the rez engines, and every single creature can be rezzed in some manner. Dropping out Karador usually doesn’t cost that much and I’ve even dropped him on the cheap after he’s been sent back a couple of times. You usually don’t want to drop Karador in the early game. I play him as a means to cement the deal. If I drop him, it means I plan on winning soon.
The deck has a sort of toolbox feel going on with it since it contains both Birthing Pod and Survival of the Fittest along with several more tutors. There are creatures along every cmc chain that are useful in a wide variety of scenarios, and Survival can go right ahead and grab any bullet for you if you already have ammo to spare.
While this deck has many combos built into it, the real genius of the deck is that nothing in it is truly useless alone. Every single card in the deck can be utilized by itself, so this is definitely not a glass cannon combo build. While it can combo off, I have won many more games just draining and beating my opponents down while I starve them out of resources. The other great thing about the deck is that no one combo piece being gone will dismantle your chances of winning. The combo pieces are like a web, take away one thread and the rest of it will still link with one another. Don't worry if Sun Titan, Lark, or even Karmic Guide get exiled. Happens to me all the time and usually, I will still win.
Remember, this deck is all about lasting longer than your opponents. Don't be afraid to lose creatures from a block, don't hesitate to wipe even if you will lose a lot of stuff. Every permanent is rezzable some way in this deck. Efficient use of your rez engines, along with your spot removals and wipe will eventually win the day.
How does it win?
Now, with all of that said, how does the deck actually win?
First and foremost, the deck is actually a control deck. It's primary focus is to keep dangerous permanents off the field, while at the same time generating some sort of advantage. With this in mind, it's very easy for the deck to get in attacks.
There are also several combos and synergies you can abuse to win a game as well. Zulaport Cutthroat has several combos he can be the kill in with, or Ashen Rider can just exile everything. There's just too many to list.
As for actual win conditions? Well, we have:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer: I've been able to successfully defend her PW form on multiple occasions, then go to town with those wurms. Much easier than it appears.
Westvale Abbey/Ormendahl, Profane Prince: Not exactly the easiest to get online, but once you do it should be late enough in the game for you to win with him.
Wake the Dead: This card can easily hand you the game in just a few turns, if not the turn you cast it, as long as you have Eternal Witness in your graveyard. Just remember that opponents still go through their combat phases even if they aren't attacking.
Yosei, the Morning Star: Technically he doesn't finish the game, but you should still think of him as the finisher. If you Yoseilock everyone out of the game, then it could be anything that finishes it, but Yosei is what gave you the win. Easy to set it up where you can also beat with Yosei before he must be sacrificed as well.
Here I will explain a few of the combos in the deck. Keep in mind, this is actually a pretty open ended deck, where many of the cards interact so well with each other that I might have missed a few. I'll just showcase the ones I've liked the most.
Yosei the Morning Star + any sac outlet + any recur engine that can target him (Karmic Guide and our general)
This can potentially put an opponent out of the game. I’ve only ever done this once the game comes down to 1v1 or somebody is threatening to end the game. Otherwise, if you do this for no reason, you will draw a lot of fire from everyone else.
Sun Titan + Necromancy (or Animate Dead):
Put Sun Titan out while a Necromancy is in your yard and that turns Sun Titan into a Sun GAWD! Usually you would want to sac the guy the necromancy is on before the next Sun comes around, but you don’t have to. Keep in mind that if you target Karmic Guide with one of the enchantments, her protection will make it fall off before her trigger is even put onto the stack (which allows you to do some fun things with Sun Titan if you utilize him in other ways).
Part 2: Another thing you can do is have the Titan trigger on the stack targeting the enchantment, then sacrifice Sun Titan for some profit, and when his trigger resolves return the enchantment to get him back and whatever else you would like to grab. If you have both Necromancy and Animate Dead in the yard, then you can go infinite in this manner.
Sun Titan + Fiend Hunter (or Saffi Eriksdotter) + Phyrexian Altar
This is infinite mana and if you have access to Karador you can sacrifice K-Dor an infinite number of times to reset his graveyard casting. What you do is play Sun Titan, have Hunter target Titan, then once he’s exiled just sac the Hunter to bring back Titan. Titan re enters and brings back Hunter to start the chain over, netting you one mana.
The Altar can be replaced with any free sac outlet, this is just the most useful one.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + any sac engine:
Mike is an absolute baws. The second most powerful guy in the entire deck hands down. With any available sac engine you get a second use of an ETB or LTB/die ability, which is nifty since almost all of the guys in here have one.
Karmic Guide + Reveillark + sac outlet:
So, with the above cards you can generate an infinite recur loop. Simply have one of the other bring the other back from the grave yard. Karmic will always have to bring back the 'lark, unless you got some of our other shenanigans going on, but 'lark can bring back Guide plus one other guy.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper + Corpse Dance + Phyrexian Altar + graveyard with at least 4 guys in it already:
With the above set up, when you sac the Keeper for a mana, you get 5 spirits, since the keeper does count himself. Sacrifice enough spirits to cast Dance with buyback (which is 4 since you already got 1 mana from the Keeper himself) and return him and you can cast the Dance again, netting yourself 1 mana of any color with this combo per iteration.
Wake the Dead + Eternal Witness + sac outlet
I try to set up WitWake loops as often as possible. As long as Witness is in your yard when you cast it, make sure she's one of the targets. This, along with Phyrexian Altar, can end the game in just a manner of turns if not that turn.
Tireless Tracker + Dryad Arbor + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Phyrexian Altar
Start with all of these on the field, sac Arbor, Reveillar, and Guide, then with lark triggers rez the Guide and Arbor, Guide obviously nabs you Lark. This nets you 3 mana and a clue, so you sac the clue and have one mana of any color left over each iteration. Thus, you can draw your entire deck and generate infinite mana of all colors.
Specific Nuances
So there are a few things that need to be kept in mind when piloting this deck, which are how cards interact with one another. At first glance, some of these may not be apparent, so going into them in depth will help you get the most out of your cards.
Karador himself
So, sometimes you need to know how Karador works with priority. Remember that after the stack fully resolves, the active player gains priority, meaning that no one else can do anything until the active player declares an action. I've seen people try to Withered Wretch my yard while I'm peeking through it, and I have to tell them they can't do that just yet.
Also, Karador can be sacrificed as either part of a sac clause to casting a creature from the yard, or by a Phyrexian Altar to pay the mana cost for said creature. This is because the way you actually cast a spell is:
Step 1: Declare casting
As soon as you do this, it's put onto the stack and removed from your graveyard
Step 2: Pay all costs
Since the spell is already on the stack you can sacrifice Karador now
Of course, this is just a basic explanation of how casting works, so there is more to it, but that's not really for me to go over.
Karmic Guide
When you attach Necromancy or Animate Dead to her and she resurrects, she will immediately die, sending her and the enchantments to the graveyard. However, this is done at the same time her trigger goes on the stack, so you can't target her with her own trigger. But, what you can do is target Sun Titan with her effect, then have Titan target the chant to bring her back again and get someone else from your rezzed Guide.
Fiend Hunter and Leonin Relic-Warder
Keep in mind with the old style of Oblivion Ring effects, you can target and sac the permanent before the first ability resolves, causing the second to go on the stack and fizzle, ending with you exiling whatever you targeted forever.
If anyone can think of other little rules exploits like these, please feel free to let me know.
Every deck will have match ups that it will suffer against. Let's see what I think give us the most problems.
Fast Aggro:
My Karador deck takes time to set up, usually acting as a police man in the early game. However, if someone is able to set up a huge army within the first 5 turns of the game, or is able to repeatedly spit out huge monsters, we might have a problem. I say might, because normally I still can pull out a win against this type of deck with the aid of the rest of the table. However, if they gun for us first, we have difficulties some times.
Keys to this match up: Spike Weaver and False Prophet
Land Denial:
Whether through Armageddons or Winter Orbs, land denial will really hurt us. We can pull out against artifact based versions, but to hold up agains the sorcery types we'll need some luck.
Keys to this match up: Spot removals for orbs, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam against the Armageddon variants, sandbagging your lands.
Hard Counterspells:
When I say hard counterspells, I mean the type of deck that plays counter after counter after counter. While normally we don't mind too much if our things get countered from time to time, against a playgroup that is constantly doing it anyone would have trouble.
Keys to this match up: Finding windows to cast through or properly utilizing your rez triggers.
Sorcery/instant based combos:
Well, we're not blue, so there's not really a whole lot we can do here. However, there are a few cards that can help you. Glowrider, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Thorn of Amethyst all pretty much neuter storm based combo decks. Curse of Exhaustion or Rule of Law stops storm and any other form of spell based combos. Just be careful that you also don't stop your combos as well.
Nope, there’s none on the list whatsoever. Even though this deck does some mean stuff, I’m not playing it competitively. For a while, I tried to do that, but I gave up on the idea. This is just my fun deck. Anyway, I do have a list of cards that can help stop grave hate.
I will state my number one strategy for handling graveyard hate is to simply not overextend. Put simply what you need in the graveyard at the time, slowly. If you get exiled, well, you still have more to dump in there. But, I’m particularly not using K-Dor as a graveyard deck. He just allows me to reuse my dudes if they get sent there.
Ouphe Vandals/Brown Ouphe: The majority of graveyard hate you will come across is in the form of artifacts. These guys, when dropped before said artifact, can stop that. Personally, I prefer the Brown one, but the majority of these artifacts have two different abilities that can each be activated in the same turn. As such, the vandals would probably be the best bet.
True Believer: Since most grave hate targets a player, this guy is nice. He fits into the deck easily since he can be targeted by all of the rez engines.
Riftsweeper: Puts any face up exiled card back into its owner's library. Useful when followed up by a tutor. Still...not that good of a card.
Sorceries/Instants
Krosan Grip: Destroys any of the artifact/enchantment hosers without them being able to respond. However, keep in mind the rules of priority. If some1 drops said hoser, you can't attempt to preemptively destroy it. You have to wait until they decide to do something. If they choose to blow up your yard before anything else (which most smart opponents will) then your just out of luck. Since this card has applications outside of anti yard hate this is one of the best choices.
Bind: Counters an activated ability. Did you even know mono - green could do that? Me either until earlier today. Anyway, never waste this on the tap abilities of the most of the artifacts. Use this only on the sacrifice abilities.
Pull from Eternity: This thing here pulls an exiled card and drops it back into the yard. It only gets one, so pick carefully.
Krosan Reclamation: A surprise way to shuffle some stuff back into your library. Flashback means you can cast it multiple times in one turn. Still...those other options might be better.
Repopulate: Another sneaky way to shuffle your wincons back into your deck. I like this more than reclamation since it hits everything at once.
Enchantments
Leyline of Sanctity: Same as the believer, but can’t be hit by any of the engines. Starting out the game with it in play usually isn’t a good idea. It would get blown up very quickly.
Ivory Mask: Another chant that gives you shroud. Technically leyline is better, but I still don't feel to good bout dropping that leyline on turn 1.
Imperial Mask: The same as the ivory one except it costs one more and makes a token of itself for each of your teammates. If you're not playing teams then use ivory, apparently.
Solitary Confinement: This...is an amazing card. It not only gives you shroud but stops all damage as well. As long as you have a constant source of CA, such as clamp, arena, jar then you'll be ok. This card is just amazing.
Stony Silence: A way to temporarily deal with all of those pesky artifact hosers.
Nevermore: A decent proactive way to handle hosers....or if you know they don't have any hosers then name something you know they do have. Again, since this has applications outside of anti hosing this gets major props.
Artifacts/Colorless/Lands
Pithing Needle: Pretty decent card since it has applications outside of anti hosing.
Witchbane Orb: Gives you hexproof and kills any curses that might be on you. Not that bad, but since we're in white we have better options unless you just really need to kill those curses.
Elixir of Immortality: Not a very good choice since it shuffles your entire yard away, but it save a vital combo piece. Gaining 5 life and shuffling itself back in is a nice plus though.
Mistveil Plains: Instead of protecting the entire yard, this thing protects the most important piece in it. However, it costs mana to use and tucks the piece on the bottom. Hope you got a tutor in hand.
Damping Matrixp: This is an interesting piece of tech that I somehow overlooked. It stops both creatures and artifacts from utilizing their abilities. In my list it stops a lot of my best cards, however in the right build it could do wonders.
Thran Foundry: Really, this is a terrible card to play. Its meant to be a hoser but we've seen so many better hosers being printed lately. Its applications as anti hosing is outclassed by the elixir.
Reito Lantern: Costly to use but can be used to hose opponents as well.
Well, I want to give a big shout out to IceBear. If it wasn’t for his primer I never would had picked up karador. My deck started off much like the one in the primer…and it still mostly is. Thanks a lot, dude!
If you're interested, here's the link to his Karador list: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=334655
Deathreap Ritual: Not sure if the 4cmc is worth it with Grim Haruspex now. But, its still a great card to have.
Sheoldred: Sometimes she's amazing, sometimes she sits in my hand useless. Would be better in a pitch/dredge happy deck. Looking for something more consistent, but we'll have to see.
Conclusion:
Deathreap Ritual was too much mana and did nothing for me if I didn't have my engines set up. Sheoldred was nice, but I think I've found something better in a seven drop sac outlet: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter.
-Stoneforge Mystic + Loyal Retainers
-Sheoldred + Dictate of Erebos
Welp, SFM had a good run, but its just silly trying to justify her spot just for clamp. So, out she goes and in comes the Retainers.
Sheoldred has had a few games where she just sat in my hand and did nothing, or was immediately answered upon arrival. Dictate fulfills half of her role and does it even better, allowing me to hurt my opponents without waiting for them to untap and possibly wreck my play that was supposed to wreck them. Even better, it has flash!
Well...my computer was wiped a long time ago, so I didn't keep up with the changes. The decklist you see up there is where I shall start keeping changes from now on.
-reassembling skeleton +Liliana, Heretical Healer (testing)
-abzan ascendancy + shadows of the past (testing)
-knight of the reliquary +Nissa, Vastwood Animist (testing)
So, testing out Nissa means I need to change up my mana base. As such, I've removed some of the cards that enabled cycling lands, removed those for basics, cut a few fetches and non basics for basics.
-Life from the Loam + Sakura-Tribe Elder
-Crucible of Worlds + Burnished Hart
-couple of fetches/nonbasics + basics
These are all cards that I'm currently not running in my main deck, but I feel are strong options for the majority of Karador decks, hell probably just WBG decks in general. Basically, if you're not running these then you should probably have a good reason not to run them.
OOOOOOOOPS! Mods, if you could please move this thread over to the multiplayer deck subforum that would be much appreciated. Sorry for the hassle!
KTK Rundown
Mkay, let’s start things off with the latest cards from the new set, Khans of Tarkir!
Do keep in mind I’m only going to go over cards that synergize with the deck well, so not everything that is playable is going to be discussed. And if I miss anything that you guys feel needs to be talked about, let me know and we’ll see.
End Hostilities
Here’s our new 5 mana wrath, guys. It’s not bad, and gets even better if you’re in a meta with a bunch of Voltron. I wouldn’t feel bad about you guys if you wanted to run this thing. Herald of Anafenza
A 1 drop outlaster that slowly grows you an army. If you’re playing some kind of token army deck, this guy might make the cut.
Bloodsoaked Champion
Hmmm, not a bad replacement for Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton and the other similar guys. But, I think he’s outclassed by the two I mentioned. I’m sure attacking someone wouldn’t be much of a problem, but I still don’t like the restrictions. Dead Drop
The delve mechanic interests me a lot, but they are tagged with very high mana costs, so often you’ll have to exile a lot of cards from your yard. Would’ve liked it more as an instant.But, if you’re a dredge heavy build you might get some use out of this. Empty the Pits
Again, the very high mana costs makes me leery about this card. But, unlike Dead Drop above, it is an instant, soooo…with coffers and delve fuel…you could win the game with it? Grim Haruspex
Dooooooood! This card is amazing. I dropped it into my list on Cockatrice and am loving. Easily replaces that old similar chant from…kay I can’t remember. That’s how much this card outclasses it in this deck. 11/10 must run! Murderous Cut
Eh…I feel we have much better instants to kill guys with. Being one mana doesn’t really appease me that much. Necropolis Fiend
I really really like this guy…but really really don’t. Sure, he can do some work in a dredge heavy build, but…I’m not into that. Still, a very good guy since he can get around indestructible.
Abzan Ascendancy
Already slotted it into my deck, but haven’t gotten to use it yet. It seems nice as a way to double up on your sac fodder, and it passes the Sun Titan test. So, hopefully it will do some work. Abzan Charm
Slotted in. First two modes seem good, last one….eh? Hopefully it will prove its weight. Anafenza, the Foremost
Seems good, just not a fit for my deck. If you’re aggro or have a need to stop your opponents’ yard shenanigans she’ll do. Death Frenzy
Mmm, it’s all right if you’re in a token/weenie heavy meta. Otherwise, Massacre Wurm is better. Duneblast
I like this card’s ability, but not it’s mana cost. I’ll stick with my Austere Command. Rakshasa Deathdealer
Good for an aggro oriented build. Not for mine though. Siege Rhino
Good power and ability for its mana cost, but the four mana slot is pretty tight. Kind of outclassed by Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Again, it’s good for an aggro build though. Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Meeeeh? Seems to me the first BW is better than this one. Though…that ulti is pretty good. However, he’s still good for aggro or stax, whichever is your taste. Utter End
Took Beast Within out for this thing. Yeah, four mana is a LOT more than 3, but I think the ability to hit any non-land AND exile it is much better than BW. Still, wouldn’t say you’re bad for running BW instead.
Fetches, refuges, and a new wedge land. Sounds like great budget options!
Abzan Banner
I like these banners, they’re great for people on a budget or new to the game. Altar of the Brood
Hmmm….mill people out and win? I’m sure we could do it! Dragon Throne of Tarkir
Well, I do see myself sitting with K-Dor as I swing in with others. Not bad for an aggro build at all.
If you just wanna skip the nitty gritty, here’s the top cards that I think are going to be great in a vast majority of Karador decks: Utter End Grim Haruspex Abzan Ascendancy Abzan Charm
If you pick up anything for your deck, make sure it’s these bad boys!
The deck is sweet and I enjoy playing against it. Regardless of how bad I miss-played with terastodon and killing my own lands. It made sense to me at the time
Have you considered Loyal retainers? It makes all your legendary cards cost only 3.
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
The deck is sweet and I enjoy playing against it. Regardless of how bad I miss-played with terastodon and killing my own lands. It made sense to me at the time
Have you considered Loyal retainers? It makes all your legendary cards cost only 3.
Haha, that was some fun stuff, dude. Always nice to play with some other MTGSal users.
There's not an awful lot of targets for the Retainers, but at the least it could be always be used to rez K-Dor to reset his ability for the turn if you don't have any other legends around.
Honestly, lately I have been questioning the usefulness of Sheoldred. So, if I were to cut anything for it she might get the axe. Do you have any suggestions for other cuts?
how fast is your meta? I find that having all creature ramp is pretty necessary. Sakura Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Dryad, Farhaven Elf. I also play Birds of Paradise.
Dryad Arbor is also nice, although you can't return it with Karador, it can be pitched to survival and counts as creature when in graveyard.
The deck is sweet and I enjoy playing against it. Regardless of how bad I miss-played with terastodon and killing my own lands. It made sense to me at the time
Have you considered Loyal retainers? It makes all your legendary cards cost only 3.
Haha, that was some fun stuff, dude. Always nice to play with some other MTGSal users.
There's not an awful lot of targets for the Retainers, but at the least it could be always be used to rez K-Dor to reset his ability for the turn if you don't have any other legends around.
Honestly, lately I have been questioning the usefulness of Sheoldred. So, if I were to cut anything for it she might get the axe. Do you have any suggestions for other cuts?
One of the most powerful decks in my meta runs a karador deck with Elesh Norn, grand cenobite and Iona, Shield of Emeria, naturally they only cost 3 mana.
The synergy with retainers and survival is downright insane.
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
how fast is your meta? I find that having all creature ramp is pretty necessary. Sakura Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Dryad, Farhaven Elf. I also play Birds of Paradise.
Dryad Arbor is also nice, although you can't return it with Karador, it can be pitched to survival and counts as creature when in graveyard.
[quote from="seriph0 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/572333-karador-its-time-to-die?comment=5"][quote from="Dies_to_Doom_Blade »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/572333-karador-its-time-to-die?comment=4"]
One of the most powerful decks in my meta runs a karador deck with Elesh Norn, grand cenobite and Iona, Shield of Emeria, naturally they only cost 3 mana.
The synergy with retainers and survival is downright insane.
@grimafacia
I play on cockatrice. Most of the time it's pretty slow, then sometimes you wind up against blazing fast decks. I would run more of them, but all of the creature based ramp besides the Dryad is basic, and as you see I don't run that many basics. So, I might end up with the Dryad again, I used to run her a long time ago.
@Dies
Yeah, Norn is sweet, but I like Iona even more. Would be nifty to use, for sure, and it would allow me to get my combos with Mike up and running faster.
Take a look at the list in my sig, I don't mean to toot my own horn but its pretty dam powerful. FYI mine is a little more dredge focused as well. I dont use stoneforge in my list enven though I do run clamp. You should be running enough tutors to not was a card slot on the stoneforge since karador is all about playing an ETB dude saccing him and replaying him. I would also be running Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lord of Extinction both are solid cards and when put together will win you the game. Also Victimize is an all star in this deck and has won me the game multiple times. Jarad's Orders is also another beast card that you should consider since it makes Karador cost less and it also is basically a tutor for two creature cards.
EDIT: I was just reading your combo section and you say one of your combos is Sun Titan, Safi/fiend hunter and Phyrexian Area. I think you mean the altar right?
EDIT EDIT: A creature based deck (which Karador is) needs to have Worldly Tutor you have 30 targets for it in this deck. it needs it.
Take a look at the list in my sig, I don't mean to toot my own horn but its pretty dam powerful. FYI mine is a little more dredge focused as well. I dont use stoneforge in my list enven though I do run clamp. You should be running enough tutors to not was a card slot on the stoneforge since karador is all about playing an ETB dude saccing him and replaying him. I would also be running Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord and Lord of Extinction both are solid cards and when put together will win you the game. Also Victimize is an all star in this deck and has won me the game multiple times. Jarad's Orders is also another beast card that you should consider since it makes Karador cost less and it also is basically a tutor for two creature cards.
EDIT: I was just reading your combo section and you say one of your combos is Sun Titan, Safi/fiend hunter and Phyrexian Area. I think you mean the altar right?
EDIT EDIT: A creature based deck (which Karador is) needs to have Worldly Tutor you have 30 targets for it in this deck. it needs it.
Uh yeah, the Altar My bad.
I was thinking of the tutor, but not sure what to cut really. This list is so tight already its hard to decide.
I cut the stoneforge for stuffs before I even got to your post, bout time I did.
Jarad is nice, and my real life deck runs him, but he isn't that great in this version of the deck. And I wouldn't run Lord in this deck even with the Jarad. While this deck can combo out, its more about forming a lock to starve your opponent's out. The combo is good though.
Jarad's Orders is just too much mana. Yeah, its a great card, no doubt, but I need my tutors to be A) Instant or B) Cheap. Orders is neither.
Update to the list
Cut: Entomb, deathreap ritual, and checklands
Added: Worldly Tutor, WBG cycling lands and Life from the Loam.
Bout the only thing I ever entombed in the early game was Bloodghast. Now, I have a tutor that is more versatile. Deathreap Ritual is too slow so I'm cutting it for Life From the Loam and the cycling lands in my color.
I also got to play with Loyal Retainers and Survival. Yeah, this is really nice. I first pitched some dude for Saffi so I could I could set up an infinite sac and recur combo with Retainers and Saffi, then pitched another for Blood Artist. My combo was foiled by a STP, but then I pitched a dude for Grim Haruspex and drew a ton of cards. Unfortunately, all of this was still in the early game so I didn't have mana for a quick win, so I dropped Abzan Ascendancy, offed my Haruspex so I wouldn't deck myself and made a billion tokens. HOwever, the guy drew a pro creatures enchantment and offed me. Oh wells, I did the best I could.
Nice list, good to seen an active Karador thread since he is constantly getting new toys with each set. I would go for a little more creature ramp as well, you might need to up your basic count a little for this but it is worth it. I like the guys that sac themselves, they ramp you and fill your yard to power out K-dor, excellent value. Also in my experience with Karador Entomb is way better than Worldly Tutor, skipping your draw is a bad deal. Also spore frog and Peacekeeper if you find you need some extra time to get set up.
Here are some of the sac-ramp guys I have run at one point or another, probably never all at once. I am sure these are not news to you, but for reference:
Nice list, good to seen an active Karador thread since he is constantly getting new toys with each set. I would go for a little more creature ramp as well, you might need to up your basic count a little for this but it is worth it. I like the guys that sac themselves, they ramp you and fill your yard to power out K-dor, excellent value. Also in my experience with Karador Entomb is way better than Worldly Tutor, skipping your draw is a bad deal. Also spore frog and Peacekeeper if you find you need some extra time to get set up.
Here are some of the sac-ramp guys I have run at one point or another, probably never all at once. I am sure these are not news to you, but for reference:
not my personal fave, but damn good value yavimaya elder
Oh my, I somehow missed that my thread had a post on it. Well, let me get to this then.
See, I feel that my ramp and land base is pretty fine as is,I rarely ever don't have enough mana to progress as I need to. I don't ramp hard, but that's okay, cuz I'm not playing battlecruiser nor am I trying to combo out fast. As such, my ramp guy department seems fine.
On Entomb vs. Worldly: I began to feel that entomb wasn't pulling its weight anymore. I only ever wanted to entomb for bloodghast in the early game which isn't that amazing of a play. Sure, its nice, but not that crazy. Now, being able to get any key creature into my where I can definitely use it, is much better. You don't always have the option of rezzing dudes.
Also, please, guys, Spike Weaver completely outclasses the damn frog! Trust me, I have been running the weaver for about 2 years now, and he is absolutely amazing. Being able to set up behind multiple fogs just makes opponent not even want to bother most of the time, even when the best option is to make you burn them. Being able to also not have to recast him each turn because you also have more fogs left is why he is so much better. I have NEVER in the history of running weaver ever wished I had the frog instead. And with that said, unless more Eldrazi start showing up, I won't need the Peacekeeper either. BUT, if they do, I will return to utilizing Martyred Rusalka instead.
So...my computer was wiped a lil while back and I don't have the cut list for the deck, but I will post the new list once I get finished with this post.
Anyways, I figured I'd revive this thread since I've never once stopped playing K-dor and he's still by far my fav commander. I've done some tinkering and can't wait for Origins to get out. I'll go ahead and do a review of the set for things that K-dor may like, along with my ideas about what I'm going to cut and add.
So, first of all, let's do the review!
Archangel of Tithes: Doesn't look like she'll fit most lists, but I have done Karador aggro before. Her ability to make it harder for opponents to block will come in handy for those lists.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros/Gideon, Battle-Forged: Eh...I'm generally not a big fan of 1cmc beaters since normally when you draw them in EDH they're not that big of a deal. However, if you're playing 1v1 aggro, he should pull his weight, especially when you manage to flip him.
Tragic Arrogance: This is a pretty strong spell, however I'm afraid of the times when the opponents only have one card of the type I need to get rid of. I think I'll just keep Austere Command instead.
Dark Petition: Well...I don't think you should slot this into the deck if you already have Demonic Tutor. If you don't, then sure, throw it in. I see a lot of people going nuts over this tutor, I just don't think it's still that good.
Erebos's Titan: Quite an interesting guy here. If you know your opponents play a lot of yard shenanigans, this guy could make it in an aggro list. Still...I'm not sure I would even slot him into my own aggro list since I can't guarantee rezzing him off his own ability.
Graveblade Marauder: Again, another guy that's just solid in aggro lists. I could see him doing some work if you can get him to connect regularly.
Kothophed, Soul Hoarder: Eh, I think I'll pass. I like my draw engines to be either: A) cheap, B) able to be used when I need, or C) draw a mass of cards all at once.
Languish: A mighty fine wipe. However, in EDH a lot of critters are going to be strong enough to survive this.
Liliana, Heretical Healer/Liliana, Defiant Necromancer: Well...this is a no brainer. She's going to be immediately put in my own list, possibly replacing Reassembling Skeleton. She'll be easy as heck to flip and normally always generate some value. She can even be used in infinite combos actually.
Priest of the Bloodrite: Eh...is okay. Not very exciting though. I suppose, if nothing else, he can give you a token that is good with Greater Good if you can't rez anything else in a Karmic/'Lark look.
Shadows of the Past: This is actually my fav card out of the entire set. Smooths out our draws, is cool with our titan, and gives us a win cond with infinite mana. Will be slotting this in over Abzan Ascendancy.
Animist's Awakening: Not for my deck, though I wouldn't fault anyone for running it.
Evolutionary Leap: I've already got Survival, but this does a decent imitation of it.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist: I'm really...not sure about her. I could modify my lands to utilize her, but I just don't like the fact she doesn't become really useful until late game, especially since I don't run much land ramp at all. Eh, we'll see.
Nissa's Revelation: Much better in fatty.dec, which this is not. Plus, it's waaaaaaaaaaay too much mana.
Woodland Bellower: This guy is actually interesting. The limit to only green creatures is disheartening, but I can see him being useful as he does still have a couple of targets in this list. I might test him.
The two best cards from this set for any Karador deck I feel must be the new Lili and Sins of the Past. All the rest of the stuff is passable and non essential.
I had to rebuild the deck from scratch, but I'll try to go over what was changed around. So, after I check it out, I'll post an edit with my new list and changes from the old one.
Edit: Non latin unicode not working, so I can't edit the OP's deck changes in. Gimme a lil' while and I'll get it up there.
So, Origins came out on Cockatrice a couple of days ago and I've been trying out Liliana, Heretical Healer, Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Shadows of the Past. With Nissa I couldn't just throw her in my existing deck since I only had...one basic forest. So, I cut my cycle lands, the enablers for them, a few fetches and some nonbasics to include some forests for her to grab as well as some plains and swamps. I removed Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam to add in Sakura-Tribe Elder and Burnished Hart. So far, the deck seems to be working smoothly still, not having any problems hitting the colors I need.
Nissa...has actually impressed me. When I first saw her, I didn't like her. Glad I figured I should at least give her a run. The deck is always loving some form of recurrable CA, so being able to rez a coiling oracle whenever I need it is just gravy. Yeah, she only triggers late game, but I've found with my new addition of ramp she isn't difficult to flip at all. I had her PW form on turn 4, so very nice.
Liliana on the other hand...is proving to not do much at all. Sure, she rezzes a guy, or helps fight hands, but honestly it seems my hype for her was misplaced. Nissa is turning out to be a stronger card over all in the deck than Lili, probably because Lili requires a bit of set up to really do anything with. That, and the fact that Nissa just does her thing and I don't have to worry about her at all anymore. We'll give Lili a few more rounds and see what she can accomplish. Perhaps those were just unlucky games.
I've also updated the OP a bit and will be working more on it as I go on.
Okay, so after extensive testing I've reached a conclusion: Liliana, Heretical Healer is not good for this deck. But Seriph! You hyped her up! You told us she would be amazing in this deck! Yes, yes, I know, but just like so many other cards that I thought would be super strong in the list I was wrong. Let me go into detail behind my thought process on this new Liliana.
1) Her creature side is nearly useless.
This may not seem like a very big deal to people, especially given that her flip condition is rather easy to obtain (more on that particular subject later), so you may be wondering why this is relevant at all. Well, first, you see, we really want all of our creatures to have some kind of impact as soon as they come down, or have some kind of ltb/dies trigger. Liliana has neither. There were a few games where she was removed in response to her flip condition as well, making her a 3 mana do nothing. Being a 2/3 lifelinker for 1BB may be on curve, but we really don't care about that at all.
2) Her flip condition looks easy, but is quite misleading
People have been going on and on about how easy it is to flip Lili, and while yes in theory it is not difficult to pull off, in actual play it is cumbersome. You want to flip her asap, which means on turn three. In our deck, it's not so easy to do this. We have a total of three creatures that can off themselves to please this healer (barring mana accel). So, with that, it is very unlikely that you will have her flipped within the first three turns of the game. Putting in more creatures that sacrifice themselves that are two mana or less just to help flip her seems like a bad idea since I believe I'm already running the best ones for our deck's gameplan.
3) Her +2 is bad
First, I will say that Karador makes her +2 very asymmetrical. I'm already running Mindslicer with the idea that he hurts my opponents faaaar much more than me. But, this is not singleplayer, and this is EDH. Her ticking up will make everyone want to kill you and this deck thrives most when it's left alone in the early game to build. In addition, making everyone pitch one a turn will probably have someone rezzing out something nasty that you now have to deal with. Keep in mind that in the late game if this ability is helping you win the game you've most likely already won the game.
4) Her -X is worst than my other reanimation
Her reanimation ability, while somewhat decent, is just not better than what we already have access to. Take a look at my list and tell me what she outperforms on that end? Do you really think cutting a piece of utility is a good idea? The inability to hit our heavy hitters when she first flips is also something that troubles the deck. Yes, sure, we have quite a few 3 cmc and under utility dorks that could be useful if we rezz them, but first you have to make her flip though!
5) Ultimate? What's that?
Okay, so first of all, if you manage to ultimate a PW you probably have absolute control of the game in the first place. While I have certainly managed to protect PWs in this list fairly easily, I don't think that justifies utilizing a card that just doesn't do much in the first few turns of it being out. Ultimates are normally just winmore effects that you've been stalling the game out to achieve. Not to mention, in our own build I doubt we'd ever want to actually ult her.
Over all I found her far too clunky and slow. Alternating between her + and - doesn't accomplish too much unless I've got another engine out already that I can utilize the rezzes with. I don't like having to set her up because I absolutely hate using cards that are useless on their own. Too many times she's been a 3 mana do nothing because someone will see her coming down and blow up my sac engines in response.
Now, onto other news:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer has performed remarkably well. Her testing phase is officially over and she has become a full fledged member of the deck. She's the first PW to officially earn her a permanent spot in the list. The ability to have a draw engine on a low mana cost creature that works with Sun Titan and Reveillark is extremely powerful. She is game changing in a subtle way. She just greases the deck so well I can't explain it good enough. Just try her out.
Changes:
Removed Burnished Hart. Never saw it in a game but I have seen the other ramp cards I put in. Deck functions well enough without ever drawing him, so I put back in Necrotic Sliver over it. Since the sliver is back, I removed Reclamation Sage for Harmonic Sliver. I feel if you can run one you must run the other, right?
So, taking over Lili's spot is going to be the new Evolutionary Leap. I was skeptical of the card at first, but after reading so much on the card I just have to give it a shot. Besides, I'm kind of hurting on low mana sac engines.
I built my Karador deck just to field wipe every turn. It is definitely not my best deck let alone the most competitive.
Yeah, I used to do that kind of build when I first started Karador. I quickly grew bored with it and switched out to more of what you see here now.
On to other news!
Evolutionary Leap is working out pretty well in the deck. A lot of people have be arguing against running it, but it's perfect in our list. We normally don't care if our creatures stick around, so saccing them to get another is great! The card advantage it can generate is quite staggering truth be told. Before the Leap, I would sometimes only have a couple of dudes to play and then they'd just stick around doing nothing useful. This allows us to keep the pressure up and continue to make relevant plays without stagnating.
Also, I'd like to state how easy it is for my list to ult Nissa. Yesterday I ulted her three times! Between False Prophet, Spike Weaver and all of our removal, keeping creatures off her is nothing. Yes, it can definitely be risky to ult her, since there are a few instant speed creature wipes, but as long as you keep an eye on your opponents' mana it shouldn't be too problematic.
Edit:
Forgot to mention some changes I'm contemplating. First of all, I was wrecked three times yesterday by Gods. As such, I'm thinking of adding Silverchase Fox. What do you guys think of that?
Second, I've realized that Shadows of the Past isn't that powerful with our sacrifice effects since screw over the top deck anyway, either by tutoring or drawing a massive amount of cards or by scrying in the first place. So, I'm going to remove it for Seal of Primordium. It's a piece of artifact and enchantment hate that Sun Titan can bring back if we need. But before I do, I think I'd rather ask if anyone could think of something that may work better in its slot.
Hey there! Read your thread back in the day, glad you made a new once since there's surprisingly little discussion about Karador, ghost chieftain on here.
For dealing with gods I added in Leonin Relic-Warder which works like fiend hunter with a sac outlet. I chose that over the silver fox since it's an etb effect, but let me know how the fox works!
Hmmm, to be honest, I had forgotten about the Relic-Warder. I think the utility of being able to hit artifacts as well makes him better than the fox. Besides, I'd rather not spend four mana when I can spend only two. Thank you for reminding me of this guy, I'll definitely use him instead of the fox!
So, I figured I'd go ahead and start up the discussion bout some of the new BFZ toys. Normally I wait for the full spoiler, but eh, whatevs.
Stasis Snare
I like this, too bad it doesn't utilize the old Oblivion Ring templating. Nevertheless, it still is a solid piece of removal. Don't think it has a place in an optimized list such as mine, but the interactions with Sun Titan is a great upside. Definitely good for budget lists, but I wouldn't utilize it over the ring itself since it can't hit anything but creatures.
Planar Outburst
New wraths are nice, especially those with the potential to leave us with creatures. It's a bit costly on the awaken cast, but still nifty since most Karador decks are made to last that long. Again, I don't think it has a place in optimized lists, but I wouldn't fault you for running it.
Retreat to Emeria
These are some good lanfall triggers right here. I can see this working well in an aggro build, especially since we could get mutliple landfalls through rezzing Sakura Tribe-Elder and Wood Elves multiple times.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Again, another decent option for aggro builds. I'm sure there quite a few allies we could already proc with his token making ability and we're bound to get some more goodies along those lines.
So far, along with the Felidar Sovereign reprint, white isn't looking terrible for our list. Nothing yet that I would definitely put in, but some decent stuff for those of you who aren't running a tight list yet.
Transgress the Mind
Interesting piece, however in an eternal format this doesn't do it's number one job as well as it would in Modern or Standard, taking out disruption before it hits. But if your meta mostly consists of higher cost counters/removals and you're planning the combo win this can make sure your win gets through.
New Drana
A GREAT card for those aggro builds and very efficiently costed. She'll do some work for those lists and will probably be an auto include. Unfortunately I can see her being pricey because of standard. She also works nicely with all of the rez engines in the deck, so yeah, definitely going to be stellar for the decks that want her.
Smothering Abomination
Similar to Grim Haruspex but much more aggresive. He's a decent beater on his own through having 4 power and flying, so he has that going for him. Coming in with the first upkeep's fodder is a nice addition as well. However, for my list I think Haruspex needs to be slotted in first for his lower cost and that he procs off any dies trigger. I'm just wondering if my list needs another draw engine on a critter or not. I'll definitely be testing him.
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Not amazing, but efficient. Does exactly what you want a black pw to do. However, again, I don't think he's good for an optimized lists. While Nissa has proven to be amazing, that's only cause she starts as a creature that I can abuse with the rez trio. Ob can't.
Ruinous Path
Eh, sorcery speed removal is lame, even if it does have the upside of also being a creature spell at times. However, unlike Planar OUtburst, I don't think this one's awakening is work leaving a land vulnerable. This one is a trap.
Defiant Bloodlord
I don't think any Karador list would want this. Pass.
Retreat to Kazandu
Not as powerful as the Emeria retreat, but still okay. In EDH I prefer going wide instead of tall, but some lists may like the life gain ability. I'm not going to run it though.
Nissa's Renewal
Eh, I don't think you need additional ramp once you have that much. I'd pass on this as well.
Undergrowth Champion
Hmm...he'll be nice in standard and maybe modern, but I don't think he cuts it in EDH, especially multiplayer. I don't think being able to be rezzed by all of the trio saves him either. He may LOOK good for an aggro list, but I think he's another trap.
Tajuru Warcaller
Seems decent for the aggro lists, and some nice synergy with the new Gideon. I'd at least test it if you guys are going that rout.
Greenwarden of Murasa
I see a lot of hype for this guy, but I'm not actually impressed. The reason that Eternal Witness is good is because of her low cost. I don't think I'll be playing him.
From Beyond
Unless you have some sweet targets for it's tutor ability don't run it, plain and simple.
So far green is finished with a reprint of Sylvan Scrying which is very nice. Some decent stuff here, but nothing ground breaking like white...yet.
March from the Tomb
Remember how I said Gideon could be a force in an aggro list with his token allies? Well...Karador allies could be a thing since there is also this.
Catacomb Sifter
So, sort of like Shadows of the Past which was a card that I liked and tested, but found it to be lackluster. The reason why was cuz I had so much card advantage already that I didn't feel as if the scry was being helpful. Then you have the fact that this thing costs more, requires two colors, and doesn't have a built in win condition. I don't think he'll be worth it since Shadows failed so hard.
Grovetender Guardians
Eh, this could had been nice if it didn't require a mana payment. I suppose they realized that Turntimber Ranger was a little op with Conspiracy effects, so they nerfed this one. Rightly so. I don't think it's worth it cuz of said nerf.
Brood Butcher
Eh, we have options of much better removal creatures. I don't think he would make the cut in any build.
Veteran Warleader
Another strong ally for the aggro lists. Yeah...I really might try Karador allies by the time this block is done. Keep in mind his power/toughness ability checks at all times, not just when he's on the field.
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
His cast trigger is nice and his attack trigger can potentially remove an opponent's only ways to deal with him. Overall, I'm not impressed, since they've dropped the annihilator. And you don't really get anything immediate if you reanimate him either. BUT, Karador does allow us to cast him over and over, so there is a bit of synergy here. If you need another big beater win con, Ulamog might be it since he can also remove threat on casts.
New Dual Lands
Ummm...yeah...these are effing good. I'm going to run these over their Shadowmoor/Eventide counterparts for sure, no questions asked.
New Manlands
I don't utilize manlands in my build, though I do run the G/W one in my rl build. They're decent, and could supplement an aggro list well enough.
Conduit of Ruin
Hmmm, this guy is pretty good and could be the entire reason to build Karador Eldrazi/robots. Wouldn't that be an interesting build :3
Titan's Presence
Another key card if you're going to try the Eldrazi/robots route. Really and truly I absolutely adore this card! By far my absolute favorite in the entire set so far!
So the colorless stuff is looking decent, maybe even the beginnings to a new type of Karador list with this stuff. Hey, at the very least it's fun stuff, right?
Over all, BFZ looks great for Karador. Some new fun toys and some things that maybe able to push Karador into new directions in Allies and Eldrazi/robots. When the second set comes out I fully expect these two to really be able to take off pretty hard, especially if they continue giving us gold cards.
Leave me some thoughts and comments and be sure to stay tuned to hear what I think bout the rest of the set!
Preface
First of all, I want to say that this thread is being aimed to be a Primer for Karador lists. I will be spending time fix up my OP to look nicer, but I must say that I am not well versed in coding and proper thread design. So, if someone would like to help me out with that, shoot me a PM or something.
Meet the Pilot
Who am I? Huh, well, if you really must know, my name is Tony. I'm from down in Louisiana and I've been playing M:TG since Dissension was released (that's 06 for those of you who don't know). My first deck was actually a Kamigawa one, the spirit tribal starter deck with Iname in it. It was BG and a reanimator deck. Once I moved into standard, I started playing a wierd 4 color but mostly Golgari deck. Yeah, it was weird because it's main wincon was Witch-Maw Nephilim.
Anyways, I continued on through Lorwynn, all the way up to the end of the Shards of Alara block playing standard competitively. I did well in my local tourneys, but never did make it to the big ones. Oh well. So, with my years of Magic expertise, you can trust in that I know what I'm talking about.
So, I have been running Karador as my main commander since he's been released. Some of you may remember my old thread (on my lost account blackkithkin20):http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/214443-karador-king-of-wiping
The deck has changed a bit, but here is my updated list. The list I will be sharing in the OP is not meant to be the definitive Karador deck, nor especially competitive. It is definitely not T1 roflstomp da nubz, but it's not something that will just roll over. I will take time to discuss deck styles, specific cards, and anything else relating to Karador decks in general.
Why Karador?
You may be asking why not run another general instead of Karador? What does he have that other commanders don't?
Well, first, let's go over the things that he can do for us:
First of all, he is WBG.
White gives us: Creature control in the forms of spot removal and mass removal. It also gives us ways to deal with problematic permanents in the form of Archon of Justice and Ashen Rider. Most of white's removal in this deck is based around exile. I can't tell you how important that is. White also gives us the ability to search out our important enchantments. Lastly, it gives us some really good reanimation spells.
Black gives us: Tutors, creature removal, reanimation, and one of our most important pieces, Mike.
Green gives us: Ramp, creature tutors, artifact and enchantment removal, and quite a few useful utility guys.
With the above package, we are able to search for what we need, remove what's in our way, play powerful creatures, reanimate said creatures, and ramp.
Next, we have his body. 3/4 isn't very strong, and definitely not something you wanna cast if you can't utilize his ability to reduce his mana. Needless to say, he's not very strong himself for a voltron strategy.
Then, you have his two abilities. The first one reduces his cost by 1 for each creature in your graveyard which also includes commander tax. Sooooo...very often you'll be casting him for just WBG. His second ability allows you once per turn during your turn to cast a creature from your graveyard. This is exactly why you play K-Dor, so that you can reuse your dudes that have been offed. One a turn may not seem like much, but it can be absolutely back breaking.
So, why not run another similar commander? Well, let's take a look at each one and see why not, shall we?
Teneb, the Harvester
I believe he was the first ever Abzan commander, please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, his is similar to Karador in that he can reanimate creatures, and he can hit something out of any yard. However, he must first connect with a swing after which you must pay the low cost of 2B. Well, that's not too bad, especially since he has flying, right? Well, not exactly. See, he costs 3WBG, which is a lot, even in commander. To make things even worse, there's not a lot of haste givers in our colors, so quite often you may play him and he will get removed before he can do anything.
Chainer, Dementia Master
Well, first off he's mono B. I'm not very big on mono black. I feel like in EDH being restricted to only one color is even more of a liability than in other formats. Anyways, over he's not a bad commander, but starting at 5 mana can be rough if opponents decide to remove him. His ability to yoink dudes out of any yard at instant speed for a low cost of BBB is quite strong though.
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
The most recent competitor in the reanimation style, Meren seems to be even more grindy than Karador to me. She loses out on many of the powerful white cards that form the back bone of my deck, but I can see her being viable in low removal groups. She's as close to Karador as you could possibly get I feel without having W.
So why would you play Karador?
-You like playing a grindier game of MtG
-You like sacrificing a lot of guys
-You like having multiple paths to victories
-You having many ways to stop opponents
Why would you not play Karador?
-You like faster games of MtG
-You want to win the same way each turn
-You don't like playing policeman
-You don't like reactive decks
1 Karador
His Trinkets
(7 Artifacts)
1 Birthing Pod
1 Mana Crypt
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Scroll Rack
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
His Minions
(31 Creatures)
1 Archon of Justice
1 Ashen Rider
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Bloodghast
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Emeria Shepherd
1 Eternal Witness
1 False Prophet
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Fierce Empath
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Hallowed Spiritkeeper
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Karmic Guide
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Matter Reshaper
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Mindslicer
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reveillark
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Sun Titan
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wood Elves
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
(9 Enchantments)
1 Animate Dead
1 Attrition
1 Call the Bloodline
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Greater Good
1 Necromancy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
His Trickery
(10 Instants)
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Corpse Dance
1 Eladamri’s Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wake the Dead
His Domain
(36 Lands)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bayou
1 Canopy Vista
1 Command Tower
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 High Market
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mirrorpool
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
(6 Sorceries)
1 Austere Command
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Eldritch Evolution
1 Farseek
1 Three Visits
1 Toxic Deluge
Core Cards
This deck is built in a specific way with a few cards kept in mind. In my opinion, if you want to build Karador in a grindy fashion, the deck just isn't complete without these cards.
Sun Titan, Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Birthing Pod
The next four cards, while they don't require us to build the deck in any certain fashion, are still very much core cards that cannot be missed.
Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Animate Dead, Necromancy, Greater Good
These eight cards form the pillar of my deck. If any of these were to be cut the deck would lose a tremendous amount of power. There is absolutely nothing that could be replaced by them (as of yet).
Card By Card Breakdown
Birthing Pod
One of the deck defining and core cards of the list. Even one activation of this card can swing the game around in your favor quite easily. If it makes it around to three or more activations you should definitely win.
Mana Crypt
Easily the best mana accel in the deck.
Oblivion Stone
A wipe that hits all nonland permanents and can be brought back by Sun Titan if you need to wipe again.
Phyrexian Altar
Mostly used as a combo piece, however it's not totally useless on its own as you can sacrifice your utility dorks or Bitterblossom tokens to get a little bit of ramp.
Scroll Rack
In my opinion this thing is even better than Top. In the early game this card makes questionable hands easier to keep. Along with all our shuffling this thing can generate insane card advantage.
Skullclamp
This thing will kill a lot of our utility dorks to draw us some cards. Has insane synergy with Bloodghast and Call the Bloodline.
Sol Ring
Not as good as Mana Crypt, but still undeniably strong.
Archon of Justice
5 mana for a decently sized flying beater. Use him as a roadblock for your opponents or turn him into a soft lock to exile the most threatening thing your opponents control.
Ashen Rider
Basically the big sister to Archon of Justice. Even without all the reanimation shenanigans she is powerful enough to swing the game into your favor. Far too easy to get 4 exiles or more a turn with her.
Aven Mindcensor
This cheap bird puts quite a hamper on arguably the most powerful tool any deck can possess. From hamstringing fetchlands to making it impossible to searching that last combo piece, this bird can really screw over your opponents and all at instant speed.
Bloodghast
The most simple self recurring creature there. I prefer him over things like Reassembling Skeleton because he takes no mana to utilize, and in the later stages of the game he can be rezzed multiple times thanks to our ramp creatures. Obvious synergy with Skullclamp
Disciple of Bolas
One of the strongest card advantage engines in the deck, second only to Greater Good. The life gain isn't inconsequential either.
Eldrazi Displacer
Loves Sun Titan and so many more of our guys, and can also brick wall attackers. With eleven sources of C you shouldn't have problems using it.
Eternal Witness
A staple in EDH for a reason. The ability to get back any card in your graveyard cannot be underestimated. She can be abused with Wake the Dead, allowing you to continually recast it.
False Prophet
One of the best ways to keep aggro players from destroying you. This card is absolutely the most abused creature in the entire list since he exiles all creatures.
Fiend Hunter
I almost never use this guy fairly. I can sacrifice him in response to his first trigger, allowing us to permanently exile a target. Or, I can utilize him in combos or even get a second use out of a etb/ltb trigger.
Fierce Empath
Searches out Sun Titan, Mike, Yosei and Ashen Rider.
Grim Haruspex
This guy can easily allow us to draw our whole deck when we start to combo. Even outside of that scenario he's still good and I prefer him over Harvester of Souls because of the lower mana cost.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper
Mostly this guy is used as a combo piece, but the fact that he creates a good sized army of flying blockers that also play well Skullclamp is nothing to laugh at.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Another creature form wipe. This deck has quite a bit of card advantage so it's not difficult to keep him large.
Karmic Guide
One of the big three. Etbs to rezz any creature in our yard and even sacrifices itself next turn so that you bring it back. Combos infinitely with Reveillark.
Leonin Relic-Warder
Exactly the same as Fiend Hunter, I rarely play this guy fairly. Unfortunately, I don't know of any ways to actually abuse him, but doesn't matter. His main purpose is to deal with gods.
Matter Reshaper
Coiling Oracle is green cuz its envious of this guy! In the early game you get CA, in the late game you put half of your deck onto the field, the other half into your hand. Absolutely crazy card.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Another core card of the deck that really pushes our sacrifice chains into overdrive.
Mindslicer
His dies trigger honestly doesn't hurt us as much as it does the rest of the table. Keep in mind that if you sacrifice him to any card advantage other than Disciple of Bolas, his own trigger will resolve first before you get those cards into your hand. With skullclamp, you can stack the triggers so that you draw your cards after his own resolves.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist
The creature side fetches us a forest, while the PW side keeps us going with the gas it provides. If you can protect her you might be able to ult her to win, but I'd prefer to just keep drawing.
Qasali Pridemage
Our only creature based removal that gets rid of Torpor Orb. Sometimes he can make a dork or himself big enough to swing for a bit of damage as well.
Recruiter of the Guard
This guy is hands down amazing. Another tutor that each of the big three can bring back that even grabs two of the three! He's also clampable and tutors for over half of our deck! Absolutely made for Karador.
Reveillark
The second of the big three. He can only grab our utility dorks, but is worth it since he grabs two at a time rather than just one. Needless to say he combos infinitely with Karmic Guide.
Saffi Eriksdotter
Low mana cost way to get a second use of a etb/dies/ltb effect if you have a sac outlet. Combos with Loyal Retainers, but you still need something extra to make it worth it like Blood Artist or Grim Haruspex.
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Offs himself to search out a basic. Not much to say on this guy.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Usually I make her exploit herself so that I can rez her later. Her first tutor normally isn't that strong, but once you are able to rezz her multiple times she becomes very powerful.
Sun Titan
The last member of the big three. He can bring back our fetchlands, many of our artifacts and enchantents, and the majority of our creatures. He also has a few infinite combos you can utilize as well. This guy is just pure value.
Tireless Tracker
Low cost critter that draws us cards for little investment and can even grow into a respectable beater. What's not to love?
Viscera Seer
One mana sac outlet that functions as pseudo card advantage. A pity its so rare that you can pod into him.
Wood Elves
The absolute best mana ramp creature. It can grab our duals, shocks and Murmuring Bosk. Also plays well with Skullclamp.
Yosei, the Morning Star
A powerful way to lock people out of the game when you've got a rezz engine set up.
Zulaport Cutthroat
Better than Bloodartist since it doesn't exactly draw the ire of the table in the early game. It doesn't matter that it only procs off our own creatures, it still does the same thing.
Animate Dead
A low mana cost way to rez one a guy out of ANY yard. Sun Titan can bring it back as well, so it's one of the key cards in the deck if you ask me. With this and Necromancy in your yard you can infinitely abuse Sun Titan.
Attrition
Sac our guys to kill their guys? Sounds good, right?
Call the Bloodline
In our deck, this is arguably better than Bitterblossom since it allows us to pitch cards to reanimate later. Currently testing it, but my gut tells me its going to stay.
Dance of the Dead
Basically a weaker version of Animate Dead, but even that is quite powerful. It was either this or Angelic Renewal and that card has such an awful timing restriction.
Evolutionary Leap
Leaping guys that have already done their thing sounds like a good plan, right? Very nice since it's a low cost source of card advantage.
Greater Good
An absolute house in this list. Sacrificing your guys to draw a lot, then pitch three is just amazing.
Necromancy
Same thing as Animate Dead, but has the option to be flashed in. In my opinion this is the most powerful reanimation spell in EDH since it has flash and can be abused with Sun Titan.
Pernicious Deed
Our second permanent based wipe that Sun Titan can bring back.
Sylvan Library
The absolute best card advantage engine in the deck. If you get a turn one Vampiric or Enlightened Tutor then 9 out of 10 times this is the correct card to grab.
Anguished Unmaking
I prefer this over Vindicate because of the instant speed. Being one mana cheaper than Utter End makes it superior to it as well. 3 life is nothing.
Corpse Dance
Instant speed reanimation is nothing to scoff at. While it is very narrow in what it can get back it's still relatively easy to play around. You shouldn't cast it without being able to buy it back and sacrifice the creature, but sometimes you have no choice. Goes infinite with Hallowed Spiritkeeper and Phyrexian Altar.
Eladamri's Call
Cheap creature tutor that puts it into your hand.
Enlightened Tutor
Many of our key cards are enchantments or artifacts, so this thing is very strong.
Entomb
Trying to figure out what to entomb in the early game can be tricky, but in the late game it should be easy to pick out a target.
Nature's Claim
G to destroy an artifact or enchantment? This is the cream of the crop for handling those permanents.
Path to Exile
The second spot removal for creatures.
Swords to Plowshares
And now the number one spot removal for creatures.
Vampiric Tutor
Easily makes your questionable hands keepers and in the late game grabs anything you need to win.
Wake the Dead
This is by far the most powerful instant in the deck, easily turning the game around for you, even winning the game in most cases. Paired with Eternal Witness you can do it over and over again.
Auster Command
The most expensive non creature card in the deck, but it wipes so much stuff and is even selective in what it gets rid of. Easy to make this not hurt you at all.
Demonic Tutor
The number one tutor. Auto include.
Eldritch Evolution
Basically a one time use of Birthing Pod. Even if you only get one use its quite powerful at just that.
Farseek
This used to be Nature's Lore but since we already have that in the next card below, figured I'd slot in something that can grab the other half of our duals/shocks.
Three Visits
Exactly the same thing as Nature's Lore.
Toxic Deluge
Variable wipe for ony three mana. In my eyes this is now an auto include.
4 Forests (more of these for Nissa)
3 Plains
2 Swamps
5 fetches
Each of the shocks, duals, and filter lands in our colors
Command Tower and Murmuring Bosk as all three color lands
Bojuka Bog
Land based grave hate. Auto include since it's pretty much no cost to your list.
High Market
Another land based sac outlet and is the second best one in the deck.
Horizon Canopy
Another landbased card advantage engine. Pair it with Sun Titan to have your engine going.
Mirrorpool
Absolutely LOVES Sun Titan! Of course, it loves the majority of our creatures anyways, and it can certainly be utilized along with some of our spells in a pinch.
Phyrexian Tower
The best landbased sac outlet. It allows us to ramp by one additional mana per turn.
Strip Mine
Combined with Sun Titan you can slowly take your opponents out of the game.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Mostly for manafixing. It's possible to just pull it out, but I kind of want to keep it for now.
Volrath's Stronghold
Allows us to reuse a key creature if we really need to.
Wasteland
Not as strong as Strip Mine, but can still take care of problematic lands. Obvious synergy with Sun Titan.
Westvale Abbey / Ormendahl, Profane Prince
Token maker and a significant beater on a land? And it serves as, if conditional, sac outlet? Currently testing, but I love the idea of it!
Birthing Pod Chains
Birthing Pod gives the deck quite a bit of flexibility, allowing us to off a guy (possibly triggering dies/ltb effects) to go find another that costs one more mana. As such, I have kept some key creatures at every cmc that are valuable in some manner.
1 cmc:
Starter: Call the Bloodline tokens, Hallowed Spiritkeepr tokens
Find: Viscera Seer
2 cmc:
Saffi Eriksdotter, Qasali Pridemage, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Blood Ghast, Zulaport Enforcer, Leonin Relic-Warder
3 cmc:
Aven Mindcensor, Eternal Witness, Fiend Hunter, Fierce Empath, Grim Haruspex, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Recruiter of the Guard, Wood Elves, Matter Reshaper, Eldrazi Displacer, Tireless Tracker
4 cmc:
Disciple of Bolas, False Prophet, Mindslicer
5 cmc:
Archon of Justice, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Sidisi, Undead Vizier
6 cmc:
Sun Titan, Yosei, the Morning Star, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
7 cmc:
Ashen Rider
Nice list. How does it play?
The key to this deck is controlling your opponents and not overextending your graveyard. A lot of our guys blow permanents so we're a very reactive creature based deck. Those, combined with our spot removal, makes it very difficult to just steal a win out of nowhere.
Your actual role in the game, that is until you're ready to win, is to play policeman. Someone dropped out something nasty? Blow it up! Try to play more reactive in the early phases, so that people don't get too suspicious of you and leave you alone while you build. Only answer cards at instant speed (if you can) and only if it's TRULY a threat to you (of course, blowing up something that is dangerous to other players may have some very nice benefits).
Over half the creatures aren’t threats alone and there is usually something scarier out. Most of the dudes blow stuff up or act as utility in another way, so wasting removal or attacking us isn’t going to be most of the table’s number one priority. Being able to read your opponents and know when the right time to act is key, this is staying invisible.
This deck is extremely resilient. The majority of our answers can be recurred by any of the rez engines, and every single creature can be rezzed in some manner. Dropping out Karador usually doesn’t cost that much and I’ve even dropped him on the cheap after he’s been sent back a couple of times. You usually don’t want to drop Karador in the early game. I play him as a means to cement the deal. If I drop him, it means I plan on winning soon.
The deck has a sort of toolbox feel going on with it since it contains both Birthing Pod and Survival of the Fittest along with several more tutors. There are creatures along every cmc chain that are useful in a wide variety of scenarios, and Survival can go right ahead and grab any bullet for you if you already have ammo to spare.
While this deck has many combos built into it, the real genius of the deck is that nothing in it is truly useless alone. Every single card in the deck can be utilized by itself, so this is definitely not a glass cannon combo build. While it can combo off, I have won many more games just draining and beating my opponents down while I starve them out of resources. The other great thing about the deck is that no one combo piece being gone will dismantle your chances of winning. The combo pieces are like a web, take away one thread and the rest of it will still link with one another. Don't worry if Sun Titan, Lark, or even Karmic Guide get exiled. Happens to me all the time and usually, I will still win.
Remember, this deck is all about lasting longer than your opponents. Don't be afraid to lose creatures from a block, don't hesitate to wipe even if you will lose a lot of stuff. Every permanent is rezzable some way in this deck. Efficient use of your rez engines, along with your spot removals and wipe will eventually win the day.
How does it win?
Now, with all of that said, how does the deck actually win?
First and foremost, the deck is actually a control deck. It's primary focus is to keep dangerous permanents off the field, while at the same time generating some sort of advantage. With this in mind, it's very easy for the deck to get in attacks.
I did say earlier that many of my wins have come from just beating in after starving my opponents out. Ashen Rider, Sun Titan, Mikaeus the Unhallowed and Sidisi, Undead Vizier aren't exactly small. However, there are enough tokens out of Hallowed Spiritkeeper and Call the Bloodline to lay down a beat as well, especially when backed up by Mike.
There are also several combos and synergies you can abuse to win a game as well. Zulaport Cutthroat has several combos he can be the kill in with, or Ashen Rider can just exile everything. There's just too many to list.
As for actual win conditions? Well, we have:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer: I've been able to successfully defend her PW form on multiple occasions, then go to town with those wurms. Much easier than it appears.
Westvale Abbey/Ormendahl, Profane Prince: Not exactly the easiest to get online, but once you do it should be late enough in the game for you to win with him.
Wake the Dead: This card can easily hand you the game in just a few turns, if not the turn you cast it, as long as you have Eternal Witness in your graveyard. Just remember that opponents still go through their combat phases even if they aren't attacking.
Yosei, the Morning Star: Technically he doesn't finish the game, but you should still think of him as the finisher. If you Yoseilock everyone out of the game, then it could be anything that finishes it, but Yosei is what gave you the win. Easy to set it up where you can also beat with Yosei before he must be sacrificed as well.
Here I will explain a few of the combos in the deck. Keep in mind, this is actually a pretty open ended deck, where many of the cards interact so well with each other that I might have missed a few. I'll just showcase the ones I've liked the most.
Yosei the Morning Star + any sac outlet + any recur engine that can target him (Karmic Guide and our general)
This can potentially put an opponent out of the game. I’ve only ever done this once the game comes down to 1v1 or somebody is threatening to end the game. Otherwise, if you do this for no reason, you will draw a lot of fire from everyone else.
Sun Titan + Necromancy (or Animate Dead):
Put Sun Titan out while a Necromancy is in your yard and that turns Sun Titan into a Sun GAWD! Usually you would want to sac the guy the necromancy is on before the next Sun comes around, but you don’t have to. Keep in mind that if you target Karmic Guide with one of the enchantments, her protection will make it fall off before her trigger is even put onto the stack (which allows you to do some fun things with Sun Titan if you utilize him in other ways).
Part 2: Another thing you can do is have the Titan trigger on the stack targeting the enchantment, then sacrifice Sun Titan for some profit, and when his trigger resolves return the enchantment to get him back and whatever else you would like to grab. If you have both Necromancy and Animate Dead in the yard, then you can go infinite in this manner.
Sun Titan + Fiend Hunter (or Saffi Eriksdotter) + Phyrexian Altar
This is infinite mana and if you have access to Karador you can sacrifice K-Dor an infinite number of times to reset his graveyard casting. What you do is play Sun Titan, have Hunter target Titan, then once he’s exiled just sac the Hunter to bring back Titan. Titan re enters and brings back Hunter to start the chain over, netting you one mana.
The Altar can be replaced with any free sac outlet, this is just the most useful one.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + any sac engine:
Mike is an absolute baws. The second most powerful guy in the entire deck hands down. With any available sac engine you get a second use of an ETB or LTB/die ability, which is nifty since almost all of the guys in here have one.
Karmic Guide + Reveillark + sac outlet:
So, with the above cards you can generate an infinite recur loop. Simply have one of the other bring the other back from the grave yard. Karmic will always have to bring back the 'lark, unless you got some of our other shenanigans going on, but 'lark can bring back Guide plus one other guy.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper + Corpse Dance + Phyrexian Altar + graveyard with at least 4 guys in it already:
With the above set up, when you sac the Keeper for a mana, you get 5 spirits, since the keeper does count himself. Sacrifice enough spirits to cast Dance with buyback (which is 4 since you already got 1 mana from the Keeper himself) and return him and you can cast the Dance again, netting yourself 1 mana of any color with this combo per iteration.
Wake the Dead + Eternal Witness + sac outlet
I try to set up WitWake loops as often as possible. As long as Witness is in your yard when you cast it, make sure she's one of the targets. This, along with Phyrexian Altar, can end the game in just a manner of turns if not that turn.
Tireless Tracker + Dryad Arbor + Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Phyrexian Altar
Start with all of these on the field, sac Arbor, Reveillar, and Guide, then with lark triggers rez the Guide and Arbor, Guide obviously nabs you Lark. This nets you 3 mana and a clue, so you sac the clue and have one mana of any color left over each iteration. Thus, you can draw your entire deck and generate infinite mana of all colors.
Specific Nuances
So there are a few things that need to be kept in mind when piloting this deck, which are how cards interact with one another. At first glance, some of these may not be apparent, so going into them in depth will help you get the most out of your cards.
Karador himself
So, sometimes you need to know how Karador works with priority. Remember that after the stack fully resolves, the active player gains priority, meaning that no one else can do anything until the active player declares an action. I've seen people try to Withered Wretch my yard while I'm peeking through it, and I have to tell them they can't do that just yet.
Also, Karador can be sacrificed as either part of a sac clause to casting a creature from the yard, or by a Phyrexian Altar to pay the mana cost for said creature. This is because the way you actually cast a spell is:
Step 1: Declare casting
As soon as you do this, it's put onto the stack and removed from your graveyard
Step 2: Pay all costs
Since the spell is already on the stack you can sacrifice Karador now
Of course, this is just a basic explanation of how casting works, so there is more to it, but that's not really for me to go over.
Karmic Guide
When you attach Necromancy or Animate Dead to her and she resurrects, she will immediately die, sending her and the enchantments to the graveyard. However, this is done at the same time her trigger goes on the stack, so you can't target her with her own trigger. But, what you can do is target Sun Titan with her effect, then have Titan target the chant to bring her back again and get someone else from your rezzed Guide.
Fiend Hunter and Leonin Relic-Warder
Keep in mind with the old style of Oblivion Ring effects, you can target and sac the permanent before the first ability resolves, causing the second to go on the stack and fizzle, ending with you exiling whatever you targeted forever.
If anyone can think of other little rules exploits like these, please feel free to let me know.
Every deck will have match ups that it will suffer against. Let's see what I think give us the most problems.
Fast Aggro:
My Karador deck takes time to set up, usually acting as a police man in the early game. However, if someone is able to set up a huge army within the first 5 turns of the game, or is able to repeatedly spit out huge monsters, we might have a problem. I say might, because normally I still can pull out a win against this type of deck with the aid of the rest of the table. However, if they gun for us first, we have difficulties some times.
Keys to this match up: Spike Weaver and False Prophet
Land Denial:
Whether through Armageddons or Winter Orbs, land denial will really hurt us. We can pull out against artifact based versions, but to hold up agains the sorcery types we'll need some luck.
Keys to this match up: Spot removals for orbs, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam against the Armageddon variants, sandbagging your lands.
Hard Counterspells:
When I say hard counterspells, I mean the type of deck that plays counter after counter after counter. While normally we don't mind too much if our things get countered from time to time, against a playgroup that is constantly doing it anyone would have trouble.
Keys to this match up: Finding windows to cast through or properly utilizing your rez triggers.
Sorcery/instant based combos:
Well, we're not blue, so there's not really a whole lot we can do here. However, there are a few cards that can help you. Glowrider, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Thorn of Amethyst all pretty much neuter storm based combo decks. Curse of Exhaustion or Rule of Law stops storm and any other form of spell based combos. Just be careful that you also don't stop your combos as well.
Nope, there’s none on the list whatsoever. Even though this deck does some mean stuff, I’m not playing it competitively. For a while, I tried to do that, but I gave up on the idea. This is just my fun deck. Anyway, I do have a list of cards that can help stop grave hate.
I will state my number one strategy for handling graveyard hate is to simply not overextend. Put simply what you need in the graveyard at the time, slowly. If you get exiled, well, you still have more to dump in there. But, I’m particularly not using K-Dor as a graveyard deck. He just allows me to reuse my dudes if they get sent there.
Credit goes to Pookelyduke for starting a yard hate thread. Everything found in this section can be found there.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=374892
Creatures:
Ouphe Vandals/Brown Ouphe: The majority of graveyard hate you will come across is in the form of artifacts. These guys, when dropped before said artifact, can stop that. Personally, I prefer the Brown one, but the majority of these artifacts have two different abilities that can each be activated in the same turn. As such, the vandals would probably be the best bet.
True Believer: Since most grave hate targets a player, this guy is nice. He fits into the deck easily since he can be targeted by all of the rez engines.
Riftsweeper: Puts any face up exiled card back into its owner's library. Useful when followed up by a tutor. Still...not that good of a card.
Sorceries/Instants
Krosan Grip: Destroys any of the artifact/enchantment hosers without them being able to respond. However, keep in mind the rules of priority. If some1 drops said hoser, you can't attempt to preemptively destroy it. You have to wait until they decide to do something. If they choose to blow up your yard before anything else (which most smart opponents will) then your just out of luck. Since this card has applications outside of anti yard hate this is one of the best choices.
Bind: Counters an activated ability. Did you even know mono - green could do that? Me either until earlier today. Anyway, never waste this on the tap abilities of the most of the artifacts. Use this only on the sacrifice abilities.
Pull from Eternity: This thing here pulls an exiled card and drops it back into the yard. It only gets one, so pick carefully.
Krosan Reclamation: A surprise way to shuffle some stuff back into your library. Flashback means you can cast it multiple times in one turn. Still...those other options might be better.
Repopulate: Another sneaky way to shuffle your wincons back into your deck. I like this more than reclamation since it hits everything at once.
Enchantments
Leyline of Sanctity: Same as the believer, but can’t be hit by any of the engines. Starting out the game with it in play usually isn’t a good idea. It would get blown up very quickly.
Ivory Mask: Another chant that gives you shroud. Technically leyline is better, but I still don't feel to good bout dropping that leyline on turn 1.
Imperial Mask: The same as the ivory one except it costs one more and makes a token of itself for each of your teammates. If you're not playing teams then use ivory, apparently.
Solitary Confinement: This...is an amazing card. It not only gives you shroud but stops all damage as well. As long as you have a constant source of CA, such as clamp, arena, jar then you'll be ok. This card is just amazing.
Stony Silence: A way to temporarily deal with all of those pesky artifact hosers.
Nevermore: A decent proactive way to handle hosers....or if you know they don't have any hosers then name something you know they do have. Again, since this has applications outside of anti hosing this gets major props.
Artifacts/Colorless/Lands
Pithing Needle: Pretty decent card since it has applications outside of anti hosing.
Witchbane Orb: Gives you hexproof and kills any curses that might be on you. Not that bad, but since we're in white we have better options unless you just really need to kill those curses.
Elixir of Immortality: Not a very good choice since it shuffles your entire yard away, but it save a vital combo piece. Gaining 5 life and shuffling itself back in is a nice plus though.
Mistveil Plains: Instead of protecting the entire yard, this thing protects the most important piece in it. However, it costs mana to use and tucks the piece on the bottom. Hope you got a tutor in hand.
Null Rod: The artifact version of Stony Silence.
Damping Matrixp: This is an interesting piece of tech that I somehow overlooked. It stops both creatures and artifacts from utilizing their abilities. In my list it stops a lot of my best cards, however in the right build it could do wonders.
Thran Foundry: Really, this is a terrible card to play. Its meant to be a hoser but we've seen so many better hosers being printed lately. Its applications as anti hosing is outclassed by the elixir.
Reito Lantern: Costly to use but can be used to hose opponents as well.
Well, I want to give a big shout out to IceBear. If it wasn’t for his primer I never would had picked up karador. My deck started off much like the one in the primer…and it still mostly is. Thanks a lot, dude!
If you're interested, here's the link to his Karador list:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=334655
And, some of you may want to take a look at my original thread:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/214443-karador-king-of-wiping
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Deathreap Ritual: Not sure if the 4cmc is worth it with Grim Haruspex now. But, its still a great card to have.
Sheoldred: Sometimes she's amazing, sometimes she sits in my hand useless. Would be better in a pitch/dredge happy deck. Looking for something more consistent, but we'll have to see.
Conclusion:
Deathreap Ritual was too much mana and did nothing for me if I didn't have my engines set up. Sheoldred was nice, but I think I've found something better in a seven drop sac outlet: Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter.
Currently testing these out from ORI:
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Shadows of the Past
Conclusion: Liliana was too slow and cumbersome. Nissa is simply amazing and has earned a permanent slot in the deck.
Evolutionary Leap
Testing:
Call the Bloodline
Westvale Abbey
Tireless Tracker
Mirrorpool
Eldrazi Displacer
Vampiric Rites
Posted the deck and thread!
-Stoneforge Mystic + Loyal Retainers
-Sheoldred + Dictate of Erebos
Welp, SFM had a good run, but its just silly trying to justify her spot just for clamp. So, out she goes and in comes the Retainers.
Sheoldred has had a few games where she just sat in my hand and did nothing, or was immediately answered upon arrival. Dictate fulfills half of her role and does it even better, allowing me to hurt my opponents without waiting for them to untap and possibly wreck my play that was supposed to wreck them. Even better, it has flash!
Well...my computer was wiped a long time ago, so I didn't keep up with the changes. The decklist you see up there is where I shall start keeping changes from now on.
-reassembling skeleton +Liliana, Heretical Healer (testing)
-abzan ascendancy + shadows of the past (testing)
-knight of the reliquary +Nissa, Vastwood Animist (testing)
So, testing out Nissa means I need to change up my mana base. As such, I've removed some of the cards that enabled cycling lands, removed those for basics, cut a few fetches and non basics for basics.
-Life from the Loam + Sakura-Tribe Elder
-Crucible of Worlds + Burnished Hart
-couple of fetches/nonbasics + basics
-liliana, heretical healer + evolutionary leap
-burnished hart + necrotic sliver
-reclamation sage + harmonic sliver
Fresh list is up, again I didn't keep up very well with my changes, so just go look at it.
-bojuka bog + swamp
-cabal coffers +ancient tomb
-nature's lore +farseek
-emeria shepherd +dance of the dead
-vampiric rites +eldritch evolution
-containment priest +aven mindcensor
These are all cards that I'm currently not running in my main deck, but I feel are strong options for the majority of Karador decks, hell probably just WBG decks in general. Basically, if you're not running these then you should probably have a good reason not to run them.
Creature based ramp/land search:
Yavimaya Granger, Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Elder, Oreskos Explorer, Yavimaya Druid
Tutors:
Grim Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Idyllic Tutor, Dark Petition, Survival of the Fittest
Creature Based Removal
Angel of Despair, Angel of Serenity, Reclamation Sage, Acidic Slime, Sunblast Angel, Harmonic Sliver, Necrotic Sliver
Non Creature Spot Removal
Aura Shards, Unexpectedly Absent, Condemn,
Wipes
Merciless Eviction, Akroma's Vengeance
Card draw/advantage
Necropotence, Moonlight Bargain
Reanimation
Victimize, Living Death, Dance of the Dead, Coffin Queen, Beacon of Unrest, Reanimate, Life//Death
Fatties
Sheoldred, Whispering One, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Alternate Lists
So, as I said in the op, my main version isn't the only way to play Karador. Here's a few other lists that I looked over and liked.
Bobthefunny's 1 drops
This list is all about utilizing cards such as Proclamation of Rebirth, Ranger of Eos, Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and Orzhov Charm. It's similar in feel to my own list from first glance, but is much more dedicated to the synergy of low drop creatures.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
KTK Rundown
Mkay, let’s start things off with the latest cards from the new set, Khans of Tarkir!
Do keep in mind I’m only going to go over cards that synergize with the deck well, so not everything that is playable is going to be discussed. And if I miss anything that you guys feel needs to be talked about, let me know and we’ll see.
End Hostilities
Here’s our new 5 mana wrath, guys. It’s not bad, and gets even better if you’re in a meta with a bunch of Voltron. I wouldn’t feel bad about you guys if you wanted to run this thing.
Herald of Anafenza
A 1 drop outlaster that slowly grows you an army. If you’re playing some kind of token army deck, this guy might make the cut.
Bloodsoaked Champion
Hmmm, not a bad replacement for Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton and the other similar guys. But, I think he’s outclassed by the two I mentioned. I’m sure attacking someone wouldn’t be much of a problem, but I still don’t like the restrictions.
Dead Drop
The delve mechanic interests me a lot, but they are tagged with very high mana costs, so often you’ll have to exile a lot of cards from your yard. Would’ve liked it more as an instant.But, if you’re a dredge heavy build you might get some use out of this.
Empty the Pits
Again, the very high mana costs makes me leery about this card. But, unlike Dead Drop above, it is an instant, soooo…with coffers and delve fuel…you could win the game with it?
Grim Haruspex
Dooooooood! This card is amazing. I dropped it into my list on Cockatrice and am loving. Easily replaces that old similar chant from…kay I can’t remember. That’s how much this card outclasses it in this deck. 11/10 must run!
Murderous Cut
Eh…I feel we have much better instants to kill guys with. Being one mana doesn’t really appease me that much.
Necropolis Fiend
I really really like this guy…but really really don’t. Sure, he can do some work in a dredge heavy build, but…I’m not into that. Still, a very good guy since he can get around indestructible.
Abzan Ascendancy
Already slotted it into my deck, but haven’t gotten to use it yet. It seems nice as a way to double up on your sac fodder, and it passes the Sun Titan test. So, hopefully it will do some work.
Abzan Charm
Slotted in. First two modes seem good, last one….eh? Hopefully it will prove its weight.
Anafenza, the Foremost
Seems good, just not a fit for my deck. If you’re aggro or have a need to stop your opponents’ yard shenanigans she’ll do.
Death Frenzy
Mmm, it’s all right if you’re in a token/weenie heavy meta. Otherwise, Massacre Wurm is better.
Duneblast
I like this card’s ability, but not it’s mana cost. I’ll stick with my Austere Command.
Rakshasa Deathdealer
Good for an aggro oriented build. Not for mine though.
Siege Rhino
Good power and ability for its mana cost, but the four mana slot is pretty tight. Kind of outclassed by Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Again, it’s good for an aggro build though.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Meeeeh? Seems to me the first BW is better than this one. Though…that ulti is pretty good. However, he’s still good for aggro or stax, whichever is your taste.
Utter End
Took Beast Within out for this thing. Yeah, four mana is a LOT more than 3, but I think the ability to hit any non-land AND exile it is much better than BW. Still, wouldn’t say you’re bad for running BW instead.
Fetches, refuges, and a new wedge land. Sounds like great budget options!
Abzan Banner
I like these banners, they’re great for people on a budget or new to the game.
Altar of the Brood
Hmmm….mill people out and win? I’m sure we could do it!
Dragon Throne of Tarkir
Well, I do see myself sitting with K-Dor as I swing in with others. Not bad for an aggro build at all.
Utter End
Grim Haruspex
Abzan Ascendancy
Abzan Charm
If you pick up anything for your deck, make sure it’s these bad boys!
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Have you considered Loyal retainers? It makes all your legendary cards cost only 3.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
Haha, that was some fun stuff, dude. Always nice to play with some other MTGSal users.
There's not an awful lot of targets for the Retainers, but at the least it could be always be used to rez K-Dor to reset his ability for the turn if you don't have any other legends around.
Honestly, lately I have been questioning the usefulness of Sheoldred. So, if I were to cut anything for it she might get the axe. Do you have any suggestions for other cuts?
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Dryad Arbor is also nice, although you can't return it with Karador, it can be pitched to survival and counts as creature when in graveyard.
One of the most powerful decks in my meta runs a karador deck with Elesh Norn, grand cenobite and Iona, Shield of Emeria, naturally they only cost 3 mana.
The synergy with retainers and survival is downright insane.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
@grimafacia
I play on cockatrice. Most of the time it's pretty slow, then sometimes you wind up against blazing fast decks. I would run more of them, but all of the creature based ramp besides the Dryad is basic, and as you see I don't run that many basics. So, I might end up with the Dryad again, I used to run her a long time ago.
@Dies
Yeah, Norn is sweet, but I like Iona even more. Would be nifty to use, for sure, and it would allow me to get my combos with Mike up and running faster.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
EDIT: I was just reading your combo section and you say one of your combos is Sun Titan, Safi/fiend hunter and Phyrexian Area. I think you mean the altar right?
EDIT EDIT: A creature based deck (which Karador is) needs to have Worldly Tutor you have 30 targets for it in this deck. it needs it.
Thraximundar Control voltron
Darien, King of Dudes The swarm
Karador, Ghost ChieftainJunk graveyard
Erebos, God of the DeadMy BIG BLACK.......deck
Zedruu the kindhearted My take on Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Roon of the Hidden Realm Bounce house
Uh yeah, the Altar My bad.
I was thinking of the tutor, but not sure what to cut really. This list is so tight already its hard to decide.
I cut the stoneforge for stuffs before I even got to your post, bout time I did.
Jarad is nice, and my real life deck runs him, but he isn't that great in this version of the deck. And I wouldn't run Lord in this deck even with the Jarad. While this deck can combo out, its more about forming a lock to starve your opponent's out. The combo is good though.
Jarad's Orders is just too much mana. Yeah, its a great card, no doubt, but I need my tutors to be A) Instant or B) Cheap. Orders is neither.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Cut: Entomb, deathreap ritual, and checklands
Added: Worldly Tutor, WBG cycling lands and Life from the Loam.
Bout the only thing I ever entombed in the early game was Bloodghast. Now, I have a tutor that is more versatile. Deathreap Ritual is too slow so I'm cutting it for Life From the Loam and the cycling lands in my color.
I also got to play with Loyal Retainers and Survival. Yeah, this is really nice. I first pitched some dude for Saffi so I could I could set up an infinite sac and recur combo with Retainers and Saffi, then pitched another for Blood Artist. My combo was foiled by a STP, but then I pitched a dude for Grim Haruspex and drew a ton of cards. Unfortunately, all of this was still in the early game so I didn't have mana for a quick win, so I dropped Abzan Ascendancy, offed my Haruspex so I wouldn't deck myself and made a billion tokens. HOwever, the guy drew a pro creatures enchantment and offed me. Oh wells, I did the best I could.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Here are some of the sac-ramp guys I have run at one point or another, probably never all at once. I am sure these are not news to you, but for reference:
close to essential for me:
dawntreader elk
Burnished Hart
sakura-tribe elder
still very effective + obscure old skool flava points:
yavimaya granger
diligent farmhand
not my personal fave, but damn good value
yavimaya elder
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
Oh my, I somehow missed that my thread had a post on it. Well, let me get to this then.
See, I feel that my ramp and land base is pretty fine as is,I rarely ever don't have enough mana to progress as I need to. I don't ramp hard, but that's okay, cuz I'm not playing battlecruiser nor am I trying to combo out fast. As such, my ramp guy department seems fine.
On Entomb vs. Worldly: I began to feel that entomb wasn't pulling its weight anymore. I only ever wanted to entomb for bloodghast in the early game which isn't that amazing of a play. Sure, its nice, but not that crazy. Now, being able to get any key creature into my where I can definitely use it, is much better. You don't always have the option of rezzing dudes.
Also, please, guys, Spike Weaver completely outclasses the damn frog! Trust me, I have been running the weaver for about 2 years now, and he is absolutely amazing. Being able to set up behind multiple fogs just makes opponent not even want to bother most of the time, even when the best option is to make you burn them. Being able to also not have to recast him each turn because you also have more fogs left is why he is so much better. I have NEVER in the history of running weaver ever wished I had the frog instead. And with that said, unless more Eldrazi start showing up, I won't need the Peacekeeper either. BUT, if they do, I will return to utilizing Martyred Rusalka instead.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Anyways, I figured I'd revive this thread since I've never once stopped playing K-dor and he's still by far my fav commander. I've done some tinkering and can't wait for Origins to get out. I'll go ahead and do a review of the set for things that K-dor may like, along with my ideas about what I'm going to cut and add.
So, first of all, let's do the review!
Archangel of Tithes: Doesn't look like she'll fit most lists, but I have done Karador aggro before. Her ability to make it harder for opponents to block will come in handy for those lists.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros/Gideon, Battle-Forged: Eh...I'm generally not a big fan of 1cmc beaters since normally when you draw them in EDH they're not that big of a deal. However, if you're playing 1v1 aggro, he should pull his weight, especially when you manage to flip him.
Tragic Arrogance: This is a pretty strong spell, however I'm afraid of the times when the opponents only have one card of the type I need to get rid of. I think I'll just keep Austere Command instead.
Dark Petition: Well...I don't think you should slot this into the deck if you already have Demonic Tutor. If you don't, then sure, throw it in. I see a lot of people going nuts over this tutor, I just don't think it's still that good.
Despoiler of Souls: Ick! It exiles our guys to come back. Not worth!
Erebos's Titan: Quite an interesting guy here. If you know your opponents play a lot of yard shenanigans, this guy could make it in an aggro list. Still...I'm not sure I would even slot him into my own aggro list since I can't guarantee rezzing him off his own ability.
Graveblade Marauder: Again, another guy that's just solid in aggro lists. I could see him doing some work if you can get him to connect regularly.
Kothophed, Soul Hoarder: Eh, I think I'll pass. I like my draw engines to be either: A) cheap, B) able to be used when I need, or C) draw a mass of cards all at once.
Languish: A mighty fine wipe. However, in EDH a lot of critters are going to be strong enough to survive this.
Liliana, Heretical Healer/Liliana, Defiant Necromancer: Well...this is a no brainer. She's going to be immediately put in my own list, possibly replacing Reassembling Skeleton. She'll be easy as heck to flip and normally always generate some value. She can even be used in infinite combos actually.
Priest of the Bloodrite: Eh...is okay. Not very exciting though. I suppose, if nothing else, he can give you a token that is good with Greater Good if you can't rez anything else in a Karmic/'Lark look.
Shadows of the Past: This is actually my fav card out of the entire set. Smooths out our draws, is cool with our titan, and gives us a win cond with infinite mana. Will be slotting this in over Abzan Ascendancy.
Animist's Awakening: Not for my deck, though I wouldn't fault anyone for running it.
Evolutionary Leap: I've already got Survival, but this does a decent imitation of it.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist: I'm really...not sure about her. I could modify my lands to utilize her, but I just don't like the fact she doesn't become really useful until late game, especially since I don't run much land ramp at all. Eh, we'll see.
Nissa's Revelation: Much better in fatty.dec, which this is not. Plus, it's waaaaaaaaaaay too much mana.
Woodland Bellower: This guy is actually interesting. The limit to only green creatures is disheartening, but I can see him being useful as he does still have a couple of targets in this list. I might test him.
Blood-Cursed Knight: Eh, I don't think even the aggro decks want this guy.
Citadel Castellan: See above.
Shaman of the Pack: Um...Karador Elves could become a thing? Even if it doesn't, you could still utilize him in an infinite combo.
Sword of the Animist: Land ramp for your aggro deck. Sounds good to me.
The two best cards from this set for any Karador deck I feel must be the new Lili and Sins of the Past. All the rest of the stuff is passable and non essential.
I had to rebuild the deck from scratch, but I'll try to go over what was changed around. So, after I check it out, I'll post an edit with my new list and changes from the old one.
Edit: Non latin unicode not working, so I can't edit the OP's deck changes in. Gimme a lil' while and I'll get it up there.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Nissa...has actually impressed me. When I first saw her, I didn't like her. Glad I figured I should at least give her a run. The deck is always loving some form of recurrable CA, so being able to rez a coiling oracle whenever I need it is just gravy. Yeah, she only triggers late game, but I've found with my new addition of ramp she isn't difficult to flip at all. I had her PW form on turn 4, so very nice.
Liliana on the other hand...is proving to not do much at all. Sure, she rezzes a guy, or helps fight hands, but honestly it seems my hype for her was misplaced. Nissa is turning out to be a stronger card over all in the deck than Lili, probably because Lili requires a bit of set up to really do anything with. That, and the fact that Nissa just does her thing and I don't have to worry about her at all anymore. We'll give Lili a few more rounds and see what she can accomplish. Perhaps those were just unlucky games.
I've also updated the OP a bit and will be working more on it as I go on.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
1) Her creature side is nearly useless.
This may not seem like a very big deal to people, especially given that her flip condition is rather easy to obtain (more on that particular subject later), so you may be wondering why this is relevant at all. Well, first, you see, we really want all of our creatures to have some kind of impact as soon as they come down, or have some kind of ltb/dies trigger. Liliana has neither. There were a few games where she was removed in response to her flip condition as well, making her a 3 mana do nothing. Being a 2/3 lifelinker for 1BB may be on curve, but we really don't care about that at all.
2) Her flip condition looks easy, but is quite misleading
People have been going on and on about how easy it is to flip Lili, and while yes in theory it is not difficult to pull off, in actual play it is cumbersome. You want to flip her asap, which means on turn three. In our deck, it's not so easy to do this. We have a total of three creatures that can off themselves to please this healer (barring mana accel). So, with that, it is very unlikely that you will have her flipped within the first three turns of the game. Putting in more creatures that sacrifice themselves that are two mana or less just to help flip her seems like a bad idea since I believe I'm already running the best ones for our deck's gameplan.
3) Her +2 is bad
First, I will say that Karador makes her +2 very asymmetrical. I'm already running Mindslicer with the idea that he hurts my opponents faaaar much more than me. But, this is not singleplayer, and this is EDH. Her ticking up will make everyone want to kill you and this deck thrives most when it's left alone in the early game to build. In addition, making everyone pitch one a turn will probably have someone rezzing out something nasty that you now have to deal with. Keep in mind that in the late game if this ability is helping you win the game you've most likely already won the game.
4) Her -X is worst than my other reanimation
Her reanimation ability, while somewhat decent, is just not better than what we already have access to. Take a look at my list and tell me what she outperforms on that end? Do you really think cutting a piece of utility is a good idea? The inability to hit our heavy hitters when she first flips is also something that troubles the deck. Yes, sure, we have quite a few 3 cmc and under utility dorks that could be useful if we rezz them, but first you have to make her flip though!
5) Ultimate? What's that?
Okay, so first of all, if you manage to ultimate a PW you probably have absolute control of the game in the first place. While I have certainly managed to protect PWs in this list fairly easily, I don't think that justifies utilizing a card that just doesn't do much in the first few turns of it being out. Ultimates are normally just winmore effects that you've been stalling the game out to achieve. Not to mention, in our own build I doubt we'd ever want to actually ult her.
Over all I found her far too clunky and slow. Alternating between her + and - doesn't accomplish too much unless I've got another engine out already that I can utilize the rezzes with. I don't like having to set her up because I absolutely hate using cards that are useless on their own. Too many times she's been a 3 mana do nothing because someone will see her coming down and blow up my sac engines in response.
Now, onto other news:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer has performed remarkably well. Her testing phase is officially over and she has become a full fledged member of the deck. She's the first PW to officially earn her a permanent spot in the list. The ability to have a draw engine on a low mana cost creature that works with Sun Titan and Reveillark is extremely powerful. She is game changing in a subtle way. She just greases the deck so well I can't explain it good enough. Just try her out.
Changes:
Removed Burnished Hart. Never saw it in a game but I have seen the other ramp cards I put in. Deck functions well enough without ever drawing him, so I put back in Necrotic Sliver over it. Since the sliver is back, I removed Reclamation Sage for Harmonic Sliver. I feel if you can run one you must run the other, right?
So, taking over Lili's spot is going to be the new Evolutionary Leap. I was skeptical of the card at first, but after reading so much on the card I just have to give it a shot. Besides, I'm kind of hurting on low mana sac engines.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Modern- Protean Hulk combo WBRG -Mill UB
Commander
URJhoira of the Ghitu-WRG Mayael the Anima-WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain-WBR Kaalia of the Vast-RG Ruric Thar, the Unbowed -UBRNekusar the Mindrazer-W Darien, King of Kjeldor-GFreyalise,Llanowar's Fury-W Nahiri, the Lithomancer-UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born-UW Brago, King Eternal-WBR Alesha, Who Smiles at Death-UBR Mishra, Artificer Prodigy-BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher-WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon-BG Skullbriar, the Walking Grave-WR Tajic, Blade of the Legion-UBG Damia, Sage of Stone-WUB Sharum the Hegemon-RG Wort, the Raidmother-WURZedruu the GreatheartedUGKruphix, God of Horizons-BWG Ghave, Guru of Spores-GUEzuri, Claw of Progress-URMizzix of the Izmagnus-WGSigarda, Host of Herons-BROlivia Valderan-WG Rhys, the Redeemed-UGExperiment KrajRG[mana]OmnatH,LoCUSofRaGE[/aRd]-[mana]BG Nath of the Gilt-Leaf" target="blank">-RG[mana]OmnatH,LoCUSofRaGE[/aRd]-[mana]BG Nath of the Gilt-Leaf-URGMaelstrom Wanderer -
Yes, yes, I didn't realize I had called her a man in the OP.
I see that you play Karador as well. Any comments or questions on the list itself?
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Modern- Protean Hulk combo WBRG -Mill UB
Commander
URJhoira of the Ghitu-WRG Mayael the Anima-WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain-WBR Kaalia of the Vast-RG Ruric Thar, the Unbowed -UBRNekusar the Mindrazer-W Darien, King of Kjeldor-GFreyalise,Llanowar's Fury-W Nahiri, the Lithomancer-UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born-UW Brago, King Eternal-WBR Alesha, Who Smiles at Death-UBR Mishra, Artificer Prodigy-BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher-WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon-BG Skullbriar, the Walking Grave-WR Tajic, Blade of the Legion-UBG Damia, Sage of Stone-WUB Sharum the Hegemon-RG Wort, the Raidmother-WURZedruu the GreatheartedUGKruphix, God of Horizons-BWG Ghave, Guru of Spores-GUEzuri, Claw of Progress-URMizzix of the Izmagnus-WGSigarda, Host of Herons-BROlivia Valderan-WG Rhys, the Redeemed-UGExperiment KrajRG[mana]OmnatH,LoCUSofRaGE[/aRd]-[mana]BG Nath of the Gilt-Leaf" target="blank">-RG[mana]OmnatH,LoCUSofRaGE[/aRd]-[mana]BG Nath of the Gilt-Leaf-URGMaelstrom Wanderer -
Yeah, I used to do that kind of build when I first started Karador. I quickly grew bored with it and switched out to more of what you see here now.
On to other news!
Evolutionary Leap is working out pretty well in the deck. A lot of people have be arguing against running it, but it's perfect in our list. We normally don't care if our creatures stick around, so saccing them to get another is great! The card advantage it can generate is quite staggering truth be told. Before the Leap, I would sometimes only have a couple of dudes to play and then they'd just stick around doing nothing useful. This allows us to keep the pressure up and continue to make relevant plays without stagnating.
Also, I'd like to state how easy it is for my list to ult Nissa. Yesterday I ulted her three times! Between False Prophet, Spike Weaver and all of our removal, keeping creatures off her is nothing. Yes, it can definitely be risky to ult her, since there are a few instant speed creature wipes, but as long as you keep an eye on your opponents' mana it shouldn't be too problematic.
Edit:
Forgot to mention some changes I'm contemplating. First of all, I was wrecked three times yesterday by Gods. As such, I'm thinking of adding Silverchase Fox. What do you guys think of that?
Second, I've realized that Shadows of the Past isn't that powerful with our sacrifice effects since screw over the top deck anyway, either by tutoring or drawing a massive amount of cards or by scrying in the first place. So, I'm going to remove it for Seal of Primordium. It's a piece of artifact and enchantment hate that Sun Titan can bring back if we need. But before I do, I think I'd rather ask if anyone could think of something that may work better in its slot.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
For dealing with gods I added in Leonin Relic-Warder which works like fiend hunter with a sac outlet. I chose that over the silver fox since it's an etb effect, but let me know how the fox works!
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
I have about 80% of it irl. I'm missing alpha duals, fetches, Nissa, Evolutionary Leap, Sidisi and Bitterblossom.
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG
Stasis Snare
I like this, too bad it doesn't utilize the old Oblivion Ring templating. Nevertheless, it still is a solid piece of removal. Don't think it has a place in an optimized list such as mine, but the interactions with Sun Titan is a great upside. Definitely good for budget lists, but I wouldn't utilize it over the ring itself since it can't hit anything but creatures.
Planar Outburst
New wraths are nice, especially those with the potential to leave us with creatures. It's a bit costly on the awaken cast, but still nifty since most Karador decks are made to last that long. Again, I don't think it has a place in optimized lists, but I wouldn't fault you for running it.
Retreat to Emeria
These are some good lanfall triggers right here. I can see this working well in an aggro build, especially since we could get mutliple landfalls through rezzing Sakura Tribe-Elder and Wood Elves multiple times.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Again, another decent option for aggro builds. I'm sure there quite a few allies we could already proc with his token making ability and we're bound to get some more goodies along those lines.
So far, along with the Felidar Sovereign reprint, white isn't looking terrible for our list. Nothing yet that I would definitely put in, but some decent stuff for those of you who aren't running a tight list yet.
Transgress the Mind
Interesting piece, however in an eternal format this doesn't do it's number one job as well as it would in Modern or Standard, taking out disruption before it hits. But if your meta mostly consists of higher cost counters/removals and you're planning the combo win this can make sure your win gets through.
New Drana
A GREAT card for those aggro builds and very efficiently costed. She'll do some work for those lists and will probably be an auto include. Unfortunately I can see her being pricey because of standard. She also works nicely with all of the rez engines in the deck, so yeah, definitely going to be stellar for the decks that want her.
Smothering Abomination
Similar to Grim Haruspex but much more aggresive. He's a decent beater on his own through having 4 power and flying, so he has that going for him. Coming in with the first upkeep's fodder is a nice addition as well. However, for my list I think Haruspex needs to be slotted in first for his lower cost and that he procs off any dies trigger. I'm just wondering if my list needs another draw engine on a critter or not. I'll definitely be testing him.
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Not amazing, but efficient. Does exactly what you want a black pw to do. However, again, I don't think he's good for an optimized lists. While Nissa has proven to be amazing, that's only cause she starts as a creature that I can abuse with the rez trio. Ob can't.
Ruinous Path
Eh, sorcery speed removal is lame, even if it does have the upside of also being a creature spell at times. However, unlike Planar OUtburst, I don't think this one's awakening is work leaving a land vulnerable. This one is a trap.
Defiant Bloodlord
I don't think any Karador list would want this. Pass.
Retreat to Kazandu
Not as powerful as the Emeria retreat, but still okay. In EDH I prefer going wide instead of tall, but some lists may like the life gain ability. I'm not going to run it though.
Nissa's Renewal
Eh, I don't think you need additional ramp once you have that much. I'd pass on this as well.
Undergrowth Champion
Hmm...he'll be nice in standard and maybe modern, but I don't think he cuts it in EDH, especially multiplayer. I don't think being able to be rezzed by all of the trio saves him either. He may LOOK good for an aggro list, but I think he's another trap.
Tajuru Warcaller
Seems decent for the aggro lists, and some nice synergy with the new Gideon. I'd at least test it if you guys are going that rout.
Greenwarden of Murasa
I see a lot of hype for this guy, but I'm not actually impressed. The reason that Eternal Witness is good is because of her low cost. I don't think I'll be playing him.
From Beyond
Unless you have some sweet targets for it's tutor ability don't run it, plain and simple.
So far green is finished with a reprint of Sylvan Scrying which is very nice. Some decent stuff here, but nothing ground breaking like white...yet.
March from the Tomb
Remember how I said Gideon could be a force in an aggro list with his token allies? Well...Karador allies could be a thing since there is also this.
Catacomb Sifter
So, sort of like Shadows of the Past which was a card that I liked and tested, but found it to be lackluster. The reason why was cuz I had so much card advantage already that I didn't feel as if the scry was being helpful. Then you have the fact that this thing costs more, requires two colors, and doesn't have a built in win condition. I don't think he'll be worth it since Shadows failed so hard.
Grovetender Guardians
Eh, this could had been nice if it didn't require a mana payment. I suppose they realized that Turntimber Ranger was a little op with Conspiracy effects, so they nerfed this one. Rightly so. I don't think it's worth it cuz of said nerf.
Brood Butcher
Eh, we have options of much better removal creatures. I don't think he would make the cut in any build.
Veteran Warleader
Another strong ally for the aggro lists. Yeah...I really might try Karador allies by the time this block is done. Keep in mind his power/toughness ability checks at all times, not just when he's on the field.
Oblivion Sower
Does a decent impression of Primeval Titan if you can manage to exile a good bit before casting. Bojuka Bog anyone?
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
His cast trigger is nice and his attack trigger can potentially remove an opponent's only ways to deal with him. Overall, I'm not impressed, since they've dropped the annihilator. And you don't really get anything immediate if you reanimate him either. BUT, Karador does allow us to cast him over and over, so there is a bit of synergy here. If you need another big beater win con, Ulamog might be it since he can also remove threat on casts.
New Dual Lands
Ummm...yeah...these are effing good. I'm going to run these over their Shadowmoor/Eventide counterparts for sure, no questions asked.
New Manlands
I don't utilize manlands in my build, though I do run the G/W one in my rl build. They're decent, and could supplement an aggro list well enough.
Conduit of Ruin
Hmmm, this guy is pretty good and could be the entire reason to build Karador Eldrazi/robots. Wouldn't that be an interesting build :3
Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
Better than Temple of the False Gods if you have enough colorless creatures, so yeah there's that.
Deathless Behemoth
Hmmm...another card that would work well in an Eldrazi/robots build. This could be a thing right?
Circle of Hedrons
Not a fan of it. You can't abuse it like old Oblivion Ring style cards and you can't get it back through Sun Titan. Has no place in a list that has access to Oblivion Stone, Pernicious Deeds and False Prophet. I even prefer Perilous Vault over it. Pass.
Titan's Presence
Another key card if you're going to try the Eldrazi/robots route. Really and truly I absolutely adore this card! By far my absolute favorite in the entire set so far!
So the colorless stuff is looking decent, maybe even the beginnings to a new type of Karador list with this stuff. Hey, at the very least it's fun stuff, right?
Over all, BFZ looks great for Karador. Some new fun toys and some things that maybe able to push Karador into new directions in Allies and Eldrazi/robots. When the second set comes out I fully expect these two to really be able to take off pretty hard, especially if they continue giving us gold cards.
Leave me some thoughts and comments and be sure to stay tuned to hear what I think bout the rest of the set!
Seriph0 on cockatrice
EDH Decks
WBGKaradorWBG