MTG Salvation

Any thoughts on the SoI Spoilers - considerations that you may squeeze in to the deck, and if yes, to replace what? I do love a good theory...

Assuming Relentless Dead is going to be an auto-include. But does look like there are a lot of other zombie based cards in this release!

Double post...

Quote from Helliquin84 »

Any thoughts on the SoI Spoilers - considerations that you may squeeze in to the deck, and if yes, to replace what? I do love a good theory...

Assuming Relentless Dead is going to be an auto-include. But does look like there are a lot of other zombie based cards in this release!

This set is even more promising than I previously anticipated. Since there's so much left to be spoiled, I don't want to spam my thread card per card as they're being spoiled. I'm at least waiting for all the spoilers to finish to then analyze all the potential cards of this commander's interest. That being said, as you pointed out, Relentless Dead may seem like an "auto include" (at least in the zombie tribal version). It's good for surviving boardwipes and can serve as a zombie resurector. However, it having to die may make it a bit janky. This is a card that is definitely worth testing, though. When Cockatrice's Oracle is updated I feel that I will be intensely testing most of the cards from SOI, lol.

Wood Sage is definitely a good card for a casual build and in a creature heavy deck it can go a long way. The reason I don't run it is because of lack of space. However, it can definitely find a home in any casual build.

Spreading Algae is cute and super broken when combined with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Though on it's own it can't really do anything well over most of the time, as you said, when combined with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Opposition you can basically destroy all lands that aren't yours. Definitely great in a casual to semi-casual build where your pod won't mind you depriving everyone of their lands. However, too situational for me. Thanks for pointing it out, though! It's still some sweet tech.

As for Crypt of Agadeem and Songs of the Damned, they fit in with builds that like to have creatures in the graveyard. That kind of strategy is not my style which is why I don't have cards like Splinterfright, Lhurgoyf, Boneyard Wurm, etc. I don't completely disregard that strategy, though, since it works with a lot people. I just find that it was usually too slow and situational to merit. I tend to only keep key creatures in the graveyard (Vengeful Pharaoh, Genesis, Filth, etc.) while the rest are reanimated into play or cast from graveyard. Again, I've still seen this strategy work in decks dedicated to it. I just didn't find myself too convinced when playing with it.

@Artaud:
Testing the Budget Version with Wood Sage was pretty sweet. Being able to dig for a particular creature and mill for 4 was pretty win/win. If I win the lottery and score the creature it goes to my hand. If not, I self-mill for 4. So it did pretty well. It's also cheap to cast (and cheap to purchase). Further testing with the Budget Version revealed that Zulaport Cutthroat, Falkenrath Noble, and Butcher of Malakir were too situational. Granted, they're broken with the Narcomortuary of Dementia combo but that's already a 3-piece combo which is hard enough to obtain as is. So they were replaced with Baloth Null (which I wanted to put in anyways), Scout the Borders (which was previously discussed), and Wood Sage. Myriad Landscape has been significantly rising in price so I swapped it out for Mortuary Mire. Sure, it's the not best swap, but at least I can recover a creature and can tap it for B. Disciple of Bolas wasn't really cutting it since the deck doesn't have much fatties so it was replaced with Breaker of Armies. Attacking with Breaker of Armies pretty much guarantees the alpha strike is gonna go through.

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As for the spoilers so far, we're only about 1/3 through them, so I'd at least like to mention the ones that have caught my eye so far:
I'm going to discuss them in greater detail when the time comes, but in order to see what others think, I'm tossing this out there.

Lol, yes, that is true. Though it's another colorless mana-source, if it were to go in it would have to be swapped for another colorless mana-source. I'll add it to the list of potentials.

Wow.

This is a really good primer - probably the best I've read. Thank you for all of the work you put into it, when I get tired of Karador I think I'm going to build this

Thanks for the support! Any help you need building it just comment on the thread. Lots of people are constantly giving great ideas on Sidisi. You could build any of three decks I described and still have a pretty solid Sidisi deck.

OK, so Shadows Over Innistrad is finally spoiled in its entirety. I'm currently on vacation in Canada so I have no cards and no laptop to test anything. However, by Easter Weekend I should be able to put a review on which cards from the set Sidisi, Brood Tyrant would be interested in. I'll edit the main post to reflect any changes as well. As always, thanks for your attention!

Alrighty! Finally back to my laptop and finished analyzing some of the goodies from Shadows Over Innistrad:

• Epiphany at the Drownyard - Though I want to keep the amount of noncreature spells in the deck to the barest minimum, this card is definitely worth mentioning. Sure, WotC is never going to reprint Fact or Fiction in Standard and if one were to use Epiphany at the Drownyard as such, it would cost 5U to do what Fact or Fiction does for 3U. That being said, this deck produces so much mana that you could potentially "draw" a ridiculous amount of cards and "self-mill" the potentially same amount. Definitely worth testing.
• Forgotten Creation - Besides the fact that it's a zombie, which is definitely a plus, it's an excellent way to ditch the cards in your hand to the graveyard and draw that many. Sure, it's not whenever you want to do it since it's limited to your upkeep, but there's some great potential here. Definitely worth testing - even more so in the Zombie Build.
• Geralf's Masterpiece - A zombie that is able to reanimate itself all the while providing a discard outlet is great. It's -1/-1 clause isn't so bad since it does get pumped by zombie lords. However, I don't see it as so clutch as to warrant inclusion. It will probably not be an expensive card since cracking this guy open means you just lost a chance at cracking a 'walker, but I digress.
• Jace, Unraveler of Secrets - This is an all-round good version of Jace. It's CMC is a bit steep but it's +1 and -2 abilities are OK. The ultimate is just brutal but to include it for just those reasons is not enough.
• Pieces of the Puzzle - Very different from what the deck usually does with filtering potential self-milling. The good thing about this card is that it can nab any instant or sorcery that might be self-milled and makes sure to do that to any other card (particularly creatures). Definitely worth testing.
• Startled Awake - One of the reasons why I'm loving this set; it's just chocked full of great card designs. This gets self-milled as a sorcery but can be reanimated on its own as a potentially unblockable creature. Not only that, but when I do cast it as it's sorcery face, it can be quite disruptive. I like this card so much I may test it just to see if it really is that good - at least in the Budget Build 'cause I think this card won't be so expensive (at least until after people start netdecking and this card not being in any of the top decks).
• Vessel of Paramnesia - Used more on ourselves, this card is good in the sense that you can self-mill for 3 and then draw 1. Sure, I would've rather had it as a creature, but it seems OK enough to test in the Budget Build.
• Behold the Beyond - May become very frequent in EDH decks that run B since it's both a tutor and a discard outlet. Sure, it allows me to find 3 cards and put them in my hand, but again, I want to avoid putting too many noncreature spells in the deck.
• Diregraf Colossus - It enters the battlefield pumped for each zombie in your graveyard plus puts zombie tokens for each zombie spell you cast. It's cute but it's not competitive. I may consider it for the Zombie Tribal build but it still warrants testing. It may look lackluster in theory but maybe it's good in practice.
• Ever After - Seems like an OK reanimation spell. It gets you 2 creatures into play as zombies and the spell sends itself to the bottom of the library afterwards. Pretty neat. It has a high CMC but I think this card will end up cheap enough to be tested in the Budget Build.
• From Under the Floorboards - This seems like an epic mana sink into some nice zombie tokens (with all the mana generated). However, it does require to be discarded to take advantage of the madness cost. It all remains to be seen how many discard outlets I end up having in the Zombie Build. For the moment, it's on the shelf until then.
• Ghoulsteed - Reanimates itself and has a discard outlet. Seems like an OK thing. However, it doesn't do much beyond that.
• Liliana's Indignation - Self-mill X for XB is an excellent mana sink. You can also ping a player for 2 each time you self-mill a creature this way. I can see this being tested in the Budget Build.
• Relentless Dead - Definitely a shoe-in in the Zombie Build. All I need do is test it to see exactly how broken it is.
• Autumnal Gloom - I love how I can self-mill 1 card per payment so I can potentially trigger for each instance. It's ok that it's just B. The only downside to the card is that the transformation is not "you may" so delirium is bound to happen.
• Groundskeeper - I know this is a reprint of a relatively old card, but it did remind me of its existence. This could be a great way to recover self-milled basics in the Budget Build.
• Seasons Past - Again, I want to avoid putting in too many noncreature spells in the deck but this card is too amazing to ignore. It nets a great many things since my mana curve is all over the place.
• Second Harvest - More for Rhys decks and the like, it does double the amount of zombie tokens I have but its an instant so it's not only a noncreature spell, but it's also not permanent. Also, I run almost all token doubling enchantments.
• Traverse the Ulvenwald - It's easy to achieve delirium in this deck and being able to nab any land for a mere G is nothing to scoff at. With all the key lands to fish for in this deck it may appear like a must-have. I wouldn't call it as such but I won't disregard it, either.
• Vessel of Nascency - Really loving this card. A definite shoe-in in the Budget Build and definitely worth testing in the other 2 builds. A good way to nab something you don't want to be self-milled while self-milling 3 other cards. Amazing!
• Drownyard Temple - A self-reanimating land. It may seem like an automatic include but it has no other abilities besides that and only providing in a tricolored deck that's color-heavy is very risky. I do see the potential in this land, though - especially with cards like The Gitrog Monster.

OP has been updated with this analysis. However, only after Oracle is updated and I can test in Cockatrice will I be able to discuss my findings and see what swaps (if any) have been made or how cards have performed when tested.

Thanks for the support! It's much appreciated! I always hoped this primer would be so useful!

The Gitrog Monster is a great card - superb, in fact. It's been awhile since I've seen such an enjoyable card with so many possibilities. People are already on the cusp of ultimately and indefinitely breaking it as a commander, in fact. I even use it to great advantages in my Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest commander deck. That being said, I haven't tested it yet in Sidisi due to the fact that it requires sacrificing a land each upkeep and I like my lands in play. Sure, the deck runs Life from the Loam and the two legal Eldrazi titans from Zendikar Block #1 in order to recycle the graveyard. However, from experience, drawing a lot of cards is not a good thing for this deck. It's easier and cheaper to cast creatures from the graveyard. If I'd draw a lot of creatures, I'd have to hard-cast them most of the time. I haven't completely discarded the idea of running it. I'd just have to see what to temporarily swap for it to see how it really functions in the deck. It still needs a bit of support since this deck doesn't revolve around drawing (one of the reasons Damia, Sage of Stone isn't one of the 99).

However, since you mentioned that you are planning a different approach, you could probably incorporate it into your build. If you do, let me know how it works out for you. So far when analyzing the new cads from Shadows Over Innistrad, ultimately, none of them made the cut into the main build. The other two builds I'm still testing the changes to see if they're ideal or not. I'm very interested in your findings on The Gitrog Monster.

Love the primer man but why no tutors? Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor especially. I don't see any Sylvan library or Bloom Tender. They both go in almost any green deck ever. Is there an exclusions section to the primer? I may have missed it. That would be helpful!

I don't explain the lack of tutors in the original post but I do explain it somewhere in the thread. When you're self-milling, you're bound to get the tutor in the graveyard. The deck doesn't support returning any card from the graveyard; it's specifically lands and creatures. Instants, sorceries, and planeswalkers are the least supported card types in the deck (as far as recursion is concerned). On that note, I don't really need to tutor for particulars; I either snatch them from the graveyard or eventually draw into it. That being said, the deck wants to run as few non-creature spells and cards as possible. All tutors are non-creature spells (except Sidisi, Undead Vizier, which is in fact in the deck and Rune-Scarred Demon, also in the deck) so I'm weary as to lowering my creature spell count. I want the odds of self-milling a creature as high as possible, so 33% per card is a healthy number. The reason I do have those two tutors-on-a-body is just in case. It's easy for me to reanimate them or cast them in order to find a response. So they have a multiple function in the deck. If another tutor-on-a-body is printed in BUG then I'll probably find some space for it as well, lol. So it's not so much the lack of tutors as the need to have a healthy amount of creature cards in the deck. If you see my Zurgo deck in my signature, it's chocked full of tutors.

As for Sylvan Library, it's the same reason as Sensei's Divining Top: I always self-mill for a minimum of three, so the order of the top 2-3 cards won't ever matter since they're gonna all be milled regardless. I don't run Bloom Tender because the deck doesn't run any mana dorks (or mana rocks, either). I tried it once and was consistently mana-flooded with nothing to play.

SMALL UPDATE:

• Skullwinder is definitely a poor man's Eternal Witness, which is too expensive for this deck.
• I added Conjurer's Closet to test because I recently noticed that I have quite a couple of creatures that do something when the enter the battlefield. Of course this could abused so at least blinking a creature once a turn could make quite the difference.
• Pieces of the Puzzle has been great. The deck doesn't have all that support for instants and sorceries and this card replaces Scout the Borders quite nicely. However, I ended up returning Scout the Borders and removing Yavimaya Elder. It just wasn't pulling it off.
• On that note, when testing, I found that I had quite the mana flood without much to do. Also, I don't have all that much to do at the end of opponents' turns. So I cut Vedalken Orrery (saving some lettuce in the process), Yavimaya Elder, and Farhaven Elf. These may not seem like such a big change but I do feel it running all that more smoothly.

I also have to see how to trim the deck down a bit as far as money is concerned. It's almost at $51 and my goal has been to keep it capped at $50. I'll have to check to see which non-essential card that costs more than $2 could be cut. I'm a bit hesitant on cutting Cyclonic Rift since it is so broken and so essential but all it does it slowly raise in price. It's almost $7 and I remember when it was practically $2.

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• Primal Vigor was eventually becoming too much of a liability. No one else playing counters or tokens and yeah, it's awesome. If not, it's just taking up space in my hand. It became too risky and irksome to use so I swapped it for another potential token assist, Dread Summons. It's a mana sink, potentially gives me a ton of tokens, self mills for X, and could also be a good alternate wincon. I swapped it for another non-creature card so it's all good.
• Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest just became winmore. Apart from the Gravecrawler/Phyrexian Altar combo it doesn't have that much support in the deck. If I did get the combo online, I was doing other things that were just as brutal or I simply didn't have access to it. So I feel that it's slot could be more useful. I'm not all that keen on cutting a creature card for a non-creature card but Minamo, School at Water's Edge provides U without entering the battlefield tapped, so at worst, it's a nonbasic Island. However, at best, I can untap Volrath's Stronghold, Gaea's Cradle, Ghoulcaller Gisa, and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. If with more testing and playing it ends up underperforming, I'll probably just swap it out and return Dryad Arbor to the deck, which would be land for land and recover the one less creature count.
• I still haven't found a slot in order to test Relentless Dead. I'd also like to find a slot for Meren of Clan Nel Toth simply because she's a free reanimation straight to play from the graveyard for free. Both of these cards provide reanimation but I'm at a loss for what to swap them in for. So far the only cards I found to eventually be underperforming were the ones I've taken out. And it's been a long time since I made such changes to the deck...

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I'll eventually post these findings on the main post along with the links to deckstats.net.

Quote from Treewave »

Just worked through the thread again and I have one suggestion. After the banning of POK you mentioned that you replace it with deform Seedborn Muse, because the Leyline is not a creature. There is however a Leyline creature - Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Granted triple blue, but you said you liked the flash part most, so maybe something to consider. Also make so that others can not screw you on your tur for comboing out.

That's actually a great suggestion. 2UUU is one reason why I haven't really invested in playing it; Prophet of Kruphix was easier to cast. You do have valid points being that it has half the function of Prophet of Kruphix plus it's bothersome to opponents. I do have ways to cheat it into play from the graveyard so maybe hardcasting it won't be such a problem. I'll see what can be spared in order to run it. Hmmmm, now I need to see what to cut for it...

Prophet of Kruphix is banned

Quote from efendimokar »

Prophet of Kruphix is banned

That's precisely what we're discussing; what to replace it with.

Quote from Ghaespar »

Some cards that could come in instead of Prophet...
Crawling Sensation,Ashnod's Altar,Kiora's Follower,Gnaw to the Bone,Bring to Light,Parralel Lives

Those are good cards but just not for my build (I'm already running Kiora's Follower, by the way) because they're not creatures and they're not impacting enough to place them in a creature's slot .

Quote from Treewave »

An argument against Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir would be, that it draws attention. One reason why I want to build this deck, because you wrote it flies a bit under the radar. All my other decks draw a lot of hate, so it is always an uphill battle (which is ok, but I want a different experience sometimes). But Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir cripples opponents a bit. But then, it is also no Vorinclex.

Let me know how Teferi is doing, when you tested him. I used to terrorize my playgroup with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Seedborn Muse before Prophet of Kruphix was printed. With Deadeye Navigator and Mystic Snake it was a bit oppressive, but also a 4 card combo (Momir Vig, Simic Visionary was the lead). But I think we could use it more "fair" in this deck. And when reanimating, as you said, the harsh colour restriction might not be to much of a hassle.

I think that may be one of the best reasons to not run him - regardless of casting cost. Although, what would most likely happen is he'll get removed so some removal will be wasted on him, simply running him will have opponents assume that you run harsher things. I'm still gonna test it anyways not simply to see how the deck runs, but how much of a target it could make me. So I have to be weary of how opponents react to seeing Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Because, even though Prophet of Kruphix is obnoxious, I didn't abuse her untapping as much as other decks could. She didn't draw as much hate because Teferi is not only an enabler for you, but a disabler to your opponents. Prophet didn't punish opponents, just benefit you. So Teferi is definitely more oppressive than Prophet ever was.

Remember that the untap theme also plays into the Mesmeric Orb suite. They also help cards like Grimgrin, Corpse-Born, Hell's Caretaker, Lord of the Undead, etc. However, since Cabal Coffers is out of your price range, you can try and score a Crypt of Agadeem and then up the creature count - significantly. You can try and play a version of the deck where "amount of creatures in graveyard matters". That's a cheap variant on the deck. Not as cheap as the Budget Build but certainly more cheap than the zombie build.

It's hard not making this as brutal as possible with some of the key cards missing. I understand that they're expensive (I also don't have a Sultai bank account, lol) but for example, Volrath's Stronghold is Gempalm Polluter's best friend and that zombie alone wins the game out of nowhere. It also makes sure you topdeck a creature to trigger Sidisi whenever self-milling, so it's multiuseful.

I just regretted halfway through this typing in paragraphs so I'm just gonna go card by card and try to give you some suggestions, lol.

• Gaea's Cradle is expensive as hell. I know it is. That's why I'm so grateful for my ignorance as a kid when I would buy the gold-bordered championship decks. A lot of places don't mind you using them since EDH is a casual format and technically, those aren't proxies because they were made by WotC. So unless people got a problem with it, gold-bordered is the way to go. Unfortunately, even now some gold-bordered cards have gone up in price so maybe even a tournament-illegal gold-bordered Gaea's Cradle is too pricy. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is definitely a good substitute. It's only bad if you don't have enough devotion to any color in order to get mileage out of it.
• Cabal Coffers being swapped out for a Crypt of Agadeem is okay. Just remember that your build is gonna have to be more creature heavy to warrant it.
• Eldrazi Titans can be replaced with Gaea's Blessing. Just be careful because discarding it doesn't trigger the graveyard shuffling back into your deck. So I also suggest running Elixir of Immortality. However, these swaps are 2 creatures for 2 non-creatures so that's something to consider as well. Another great substitute for Elixir of Immortality is Psychic Spiral. It's instant speed and can mill someone hard. Meaning that if you have Undead Alchemist in play you can get some serious perks from it.
• Scroll Rack is very hard to substitute since it provides card advantage and top deck manipulation. Brainstorm is good but lackluster in a deck like this one. Though there are no good creature substitutes for Scroll Rack, there are many creatures that allow for some top deck manipulation. One that comes to mind, albeit not a necessary spectacular one, is Aven Fateshaper.
• If there's no way for you to obtain a Volrath's Stronghold than Mortuary Mire is an okay substitute. Granted, you can only do it once and it can't be at instant speed since you have to play it, it's still okay. Granted, it enters tapped but at least it provides B when tapped for mana.
• Death Baron could be replaced with Cemetery Reaper (assuming you're already running Lord of the Undead).

Hope that was helpful! If you have a list then post it so I can maybe see the direction you're going in and make some not-so-expensive suggestions if you're going in the same plan as my Competitive Build.

Dryad Arbor is okay in a relatively budget build; you need all the creatures you can muster. Cemetery Reaper is a graveyard not your graveyard . As for Intuition, try out Epiphany at the Drownyard. Vigean Intuition is another sweet card you could consider.

I've had some fair success running alternate cards in the zombie build whilst I wait for money/expensive cards.

Master Biomancer, Corpsejack menace, necropolis regent have meant that on more than a few occasion zombie tokens are coming in to play with multiple +1/+1 counters. Kind of a pumpable zombie lord. Also works well with doubling season and primal vigor.


Do you know of any other cards that could be added to this sub-theme, synergy based, so that it doesnt ruin the overall theme of generating zombie tokens but just adds another level of complexity.

+1/+1 counters is definitely an excellent alternative to pumping the zombies since you're taking advantage of both aspects of Doubling Season and Primal Vigor and could be a great substrategy for Sidisi since BUG has tons of +1/+1 counters potential. I included Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest but then removed it for being more winmore but you could possibly also incorporate it into your build since it provides +1/+1 counter to all creatures. You could also include cards with proliferate like Inexorable Tide to keep pumping the zombies. I think that type of build could be a bit competitive and still stay relatively within budget. Bloodspore Thrinax could potentially be ridiculous here if you're willing to sacrifice some fodder for it since it has a Master Biomancer type ability. Pathbreaker Ibex is also an insane pumper (though it's only during combat). So it is definitely a possible strategy with Sidisi. Going that route you could possibly find space for Hardened Scales. If you trigger it first before the +1/+1 counter doublers, it can get pretty insane.

Here's an example in the most broken case:
In play you have Master Biomancer (with its normal 2/4 p/t), Corpsejack Menace, Doubling Season, Primal Vigor, and Hardened Scales. Then you cast Bloodspore Thrinax and have it devour nothing. Even so, it enters the battlefield with quite a nice amount of counters.
In the order they should resolve for maximum counters:
1st: Master Biomancer
2nd: Hardened Scales
3rd to 5th (in any order): Corpsejack Menace, Doubling Season, or Primal Vigor.
This means that Bloodspore Thrinax will enter the battlefield with 2x2x2x(2+1) +1/+1 counters on it. So after it all resolves, it comes into play with 24 +1/+1 counters on it. Any other creature that enters the battlefield after it gets even more. Let's see what happens for the next creature.
In order of resolving:
1st: Master Biomancer
2nd: Hardened Scales
3rd to 5th (in any order): Corpsejack Menace, Doubling Season, or Primal Vigor
6th: Bloodspore Thrinax
7th: Hardened Scales
8th to 10th (in any order): Corpsejack Menace, Doubling Season, or Primal Vigor.
This means that the next creature would enter the battlefield with 2x2x2x(2+1) + 2x2x2x(24+1) +1/+1 counters on it. So after everything resolves, it comes into play with a whopping 224 +1/+1 counters on it. Just add a dash of trample and it's GG. You could even use creatures like Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord to just snipe enemies away. This could be an interesting take indeed. Although, I would probably go for Damia with this concept since you could draw a lot of cards and not risk having important enchantments enter the graveyard. You could still potentially make quite the token army with BUG without having to depend on self-milling. So it would seem that this strategy is great regardless of the Sultai-aligned general. It may merit some testing to see if Sidisi were the best choice for a +1/+1 counter strategy (sorry, Vorosh!).

Kirby - great break down and exactly what I was thinking.

I played a few games last night and was able to get out Necropolis Regent and corpsejack menace, plus primal vigor, each zombie entered as a 9/9 or more.

It makes all zombie tokens ridiculously large when they hit the deck, also opens up the ability to mill your opponents to death as alternate win con with Altar of Dementia or Undead Alchemist, which is what happened last night (swung with regent for lethal at one opponent, added tokens, then sac to Altar to mill last opponent for 98).

That seems pretty brutal indeed! Do you still run zombie lords or are your +1/+1 counter enablers there as a substitute to them? Have you considered a proliferate suite to further enhance your hoard? Do you run any evasion enablers in order to guarantee maximum alpha strike? What else happens with your build? Is there a lot of self-milling and reanimation?

Just wanted to give huge props to the OP. This is VERY comprehensive and it looks super fun! I built it last night and plan on testing it this week