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Still run zombie lords as the +1/+1 combo doesnt come off that frequently and I havnt worked out the best way to tutor for them as yet.
Only recently started working on this part as an adaptation to your zombie build - so do have evasion like Akroma's memorial, Filth, Craterhoof Behemoth. Also trying to find a way to do damage without alpha swinging so I'm not reliant on evasion - direct damage based on creatures power is something I'm looking at (dont think there is anything in BUG suite that Im familiar with).
The deck works well without self milling until you get the +1/+1 suite in play. Then you mill like made, generate a billion huge zombies (included Second Harvest for fun) and hope nobody is holding Cyclonic Rift.
Was able to mill 4 opponents for over 50 each in one turn last night - either by attacking with zombies (inc Undead Alchemist) and then Altar of Dementia.
Only running Elxir of immortality for GY hate at the moment as my circle of friends dont tend to target the GY that much.
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Still not a combo I'm actively searching for, just happens to crop up in 1/2 of games. People dont think its a threat until zombies are spawning as 6/6 minimum and by then its usually too late. Definitely something to develop further.
Agreed. However, Jarad is a good alternative especially for when things like that happens, so you could already see how good it was to have him in play. I have alternate plans as well such as milling the opponent outright (unless they run any eldrazi titans and such). Here's where cards like Opposition and Cyclonic Rift shine. Whenever you have more creatures you can always tap yours at the end of their turn to deny them chump blockers for your attack step in your turn. An overloaded Cyclonic Rift is just a beautiful thing, lol.
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In your budget casual list, you make the suggestion of subbing realm seekers with mesmeric orb. The problem with this is that Realm Seekers is not in the list you provide. Just thought I'd let you know.
In your budget casual list, you make the suggestion of subbing realm seekers with mesmeric orb. The problem with this is that Realm Seekers is not in the list you provide. Just thought I'd let you know.
Thanks for the headsup! I haven't had a lot of time recently but I have made some subtle changes to the Budget Build. I've discussed said changes throughout the thread but haven't updated the main post. I probably would've forgotten that detail so thanks for pointing it out! I have to also add Baloth Null and some other cards to that particular list. I'll see if I can get around to it later on in the weekend.
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first off, thank you so much for this primer. having the three options is huge, and that had to have been a lot of work. i've built a budgetish version of the zombie deck, and it's working pretty okay. some of the big money cards i just can't swing. the gold bordered Gaea's Cradle is only about $35, so i'll probably get that in the next few months or trade an expedition for the black bordered. below is my list:
so the maybe board is full of cards i own that i'm debating about putting in there. only played the deck a few times, so i'm getting the swing of it. going to play test tonight if my group can get their stuff together to come play. basically looking for suggestions on my weak points and any advice from the more experienced pilots.
also if anyone has any questions about certain inclusions or exclusions, i'll be more than happy to discuss! a lot of times i find myself hyperfocused on a theme and end up missing some obvious choices.
Your deck seems pretty good considering you're only building it with the cards you have and to a certain degree of budget. However, Cavern of Souls should not be in the maybe board if your deck is so tribal. Also, how does your playgroup deal with Villainous Wealth? Does an epic casting make the target scoop? Does your victim allow to play out the rest of the game with your spoils? I cut it from my deck because hitting someone with an X>40 Villainous Wealth meant the player scooping up afterwards.
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Your deck seems pretty good considering you're only building it with the cards you have and to a certain degree of budget. However, Cavern of Souls should not be in the maybe board if your deck is so tribal. Also, how does your playgroup deal with Villainous Wealth? Does an epic casting make the target scoop? Does your victim allow to play out the rest of the game with your spoils? I cut it from my deck because hitting someone with an X>40 Villainous Wealth meant the player scooping up afterwards.
so i've only cast it twice for less than 20 each time. it angers the group for sure. i ended up putting cavern in my elf deck, but this deck is more fun to play. i'll probably cut Villainous Wealth and replace it with Cryptolith Rite as if i get mana screw i can't do anything. thanks for the reply, i'll be play testing this over the next few weeks, hoping to get more than one game in.
Since we put stuff into the GY so quickly the four or more limit isnt that significant. Nor do you have to pay the mana and life cost of the reclamation.
Because of Kozilek/ulamog that shuffle quite often my graveyard, and because of them Oversold cemetery may be useless, so perhaps that's why they dont run it ?
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I have considered Tortured Existence before. I just feel that it would require the deck to be a bit more creature heavy. The fact that it's cheap to cast and cheap to use is definitely worth taking into consideration. It's also a card you could get for less than $0.30 which is why I'll probably consider testing it in the Budget Build. That build has a lot more creatures and could probably use another discard outlet as well since it runs Wonder as well as Filth. Thanks for bringing it up again!
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In your budget casual list, you make the suggestion of subbing realm seekers with mesmeric orb. The problem with this is that Realm Seekers is not in the list you provide. Just thought I'd let you know.
I was finally able to give the OP some much needed revision. It wasn't a massive revision but I have updates the latest changes. You can see exactly what they are in the change log. Again, thanks for pointing some things out.
You are always so quick with your responses, impressive, thanks!
I guess you are right, that you need a more creature centric deck. You could test it also in place of Phyrexian Reclamation I guess. While builidng, it seems so hard to cut all the good non-creatures from your competitive build. Cutting cards seems always so much harder than finding new ones I guess...
Well I do try to at least answer posts as quickly as possible, thanks!
I'm still on the fence of swapping out Tortured Existence for Phyrexian Reclamation because if I needed to use the ability and didn't have any creatures in hand it would make me want to cut it out of the deck. Adding it to the Budget Build is definitely a possibility. However, I would have to see what to swap out to test it.
There are a couple of cards in the Main Build that I'm considering cutting yet I'd have to see what merits taking their place. Again, I want everything to be replaced with a creature. The average CMC of the deck has risen considerably so I'm considering cutting cards like Butcher of Malakir and Champion of Stray Souls. I'll probably add Meren of Clan Nel Toth for Butcher of Malakir. I'd still have to find a more suitable replacement for Champion of Stray Souls. However, Eldritch Moon will be out next and if it has more graveyard interactions then hopefully I can find something for the deck as well.
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My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
How would one go about making this deck faster and more consistent? I've been goldfishing your competitive build out because I want to build it, and in my current playgroup, it just doesn't get itself established fast enough to stand a chance against some of the other decks we have in the meta. And I'll need to put some removal options in there, too. Have you any suggestions?
Thanks for your interest in my deck and your first post here being in my thread! Welcome!
Remember that the deck is unassuming and will do great in a meta where there are commander with a larger target on their heads. This deck is nowhere near as fast as say Boonweaver Giant, Hermit Druid, Uril, the Miststalker, Ad Nauseam, and other decks that win by turn 4. That being said, it would be easier to give you some suggestions that could be maybe more dependent on your meta if you could describe your situations. It may be as simple as swapping out the cards that pump the horde and give other boons for responses and ways to make the deck run faster. Or taking out some cards which don't really do anything in your situation. More tutors, maybe? But I could probably be more specific if you are as well.
A more cutthroat version of the deck revolves around not running any basics and then making sure to get Hermit Druid out with haste as well as having Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in play. This gives you an infinitely large horde with haste which is basically game over. I didn't want to build this deck like that because I found that winning that way wasn't really any fun.
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Thanks for the suggestions and good luck with the trading!
I actually tested the Cephalid Illusionist combo in the beginnings of the deck. I tried it with both Shuko and Lightning Greaves but found it too lackluster since equipping can only occur at sorcery speed. You're right in that I could probably include them in the Budget build, but Cephalid Illusionist on its own doesn't do much and Shuko is pretty much useless here on its own. Lightning Greaves is too expensive for the Budget Build, as well (as is Tezzeret the Seeker).
Zombie Master is actually an interesting suggestion. It does essentially grant all my zombies swampwalk with the added bonus of regeneration. However, it only grants those boons to zombies. That being said, I'd have to test to see what ends up being easier in the deck: having Zombie Master in play or Filth in the graveyard... I'm not completely discarding the idea - it's good enough to test. Zombie Master being a zombie means that it gets pumped from the other zombie lords even if it doesn't grant regeneration and swampwalk to itself.
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Hmmmm, that combo seems pretty interesting indeed in order to recover stuff from the graveyard to my hand. The deck produces so much mana that it would be a cute combo to pull off. Cast Sidisi, Undead Vizier, have it exploit itself, tutor for Seasons Past, cast Seasons Past, it gets shuffled back into the deck upon resolving (and you get stuff from your graveyard - obviously choosing Sidisi, Undead Vizier), then cast Sidisi, Undead Vizier and repeat. I always wanted to test Seasons Past but I wouldn't know what to cut for it. Although it's relatively inexpensive for a mythic rare (~$3.50), I don't know if I could test it in the Budget Build. I'd have to see what the current price of that build would be to see if I could afford putting it in there. This combo definitely has some potential.
As for swapping out Traverse the Ulvenwald for a land, that doesn't seem like such a bad idea. However, I do run few lands as it is already and if I were to self-mill that card, it's harder to recover from the graveyard than a land would be. That's why I'm a bit on the fence about it. Maybe I could do that in the Budget Build. But, again, I'd have to see how much it'd raise the price of the deck, being as it's ~$2.50 - which isn't so bad a price for a very useful rare card.
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That's precisely why I don't run so many nonbasic lands that don't provide color. It's very easy to get color-screwed in this deck. That's precisely why I added Chromatic Lantern for good measure.
Seasons Past is a great card for when the game has a slow pace and you're setting up you wincon in the mid to late game. As you suggested, this goes really well with Entomb as well since you can return them to your hand with Seasons Past to rinse and repeat. However, all that work can be a bit too much. I can already pretty much tutor for whatever I want a couple of times by casting and recasting Sidisi, Undead Vizier from my graveyard in order to continue tutoring for what I may need. Remember that most reanimation effects in the deck are creature-based which is a plus for Sidisi, Brood Tyrant.
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Question is, why are not you running fetch lands? Doesn't it help you get to your colors immediately? As a Sultan fanboy, I see 9 fetches, 3 shock lands, 3 Dual lands around here in the forum.
@ashep01:
I found Deranged Assistant and cards like it to be too slow for what they're worth (looters too). Hasn't Grave Titan, Liliana's Reaver, and Stitcher Geralf been too slow? I cut them for lack of being too fast. Though you produce a lot of mana with mana dorks (who have the added bonus of making zombies when milled), I find that I make more mana with creatures that untap lands than mana dorks. I make a ridiculous amount of mana that way. Untapping Cabal Coffers or Gaea's Cradle is too brutal for words. Do you delve to cast Empty the Pits or do you hardcast it? I find Empty the Pits and Army of the Damned to be more winmore. How have they been working out for you?
Oh, and Craterhoof Behemoth is beast - literally and figuratively. I don't even need my creatures to be unblockable with the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Filth combo. The trample and pump is enough.
@ everybody reading:
Ok, so I think I've finally ironed out the kinks in my Sidisi build. I've been doing extremely well in FFA with 3-4 players. Following many suggestions on Cockatrice, I've found that what I've been missing is ways to get creatures out of the graveyard at will. Thanks to that, the graveyard becomes my second hand. Now this deck is on to something! Cards like Genesis, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Phyrexian Reclamation, Havengul Lich, and Soul of Innistrad have been beast. I have yet to edit the OP to reflect my findings, but for the moment, my current deck. Apologies for not putting casting costs, will do so in the OP soon enough...
EDIT:
Since I keep milling lands as well and without a single creature per trigger, I'm thinking of adding Scapeshift as well in order to put more lands in graveyard to make even more use of Life from the Loam and also to thin out lands from the deck. It also helps to tutor important lands like Cabal Coffers, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and Gaea's Cradle but I've yet to test out this strategy.
Question is, why are not you running fetch lands? Doesn't it help you get to your colors immediately? As a Sultan fanboy, I see 9 fetches, 3 shock lands, 3 Dual lands around here in the forum.
Would like to hear your thought on this. Thanks!
Thanks!
The reason I don't run fetches is because their targets are few and far between. Also, without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out, they don't tap for mana. Now, of course one can argue that they thin the deck out of lands to make better mills for Sidisi. However, all lands in the deck have a purpose. So I'm not gonna cut a utility land simply to thin the deck out.
As for what is the current list, the list in the first post was edited some while ago so those are the current lists for all three versions of the deck.
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That's awesome, glad you were able to build the deck. Let us know how your testing has been!
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Only recently started working on this part as an adaptation to your zombie build - so do have evasion like Akroma's memorial, Filth, Craterhoof Behemoth. Also trying to find a way to do damage without alpha swinging so I'm not reliant on evasion - direct damage based on creatures power is something I'm looking at (dont think there is anything in BUG suite that Im familiar with).
The deck works well without self milling until you get the +1/+1 suite in play. Then you mill like made, generate a billion huge zombies (included Second Harvest for fun) and hope nobody is holding Cyclonic Rift.
Was able to mill 4 opponents for over 50 each in one turn last night - either by attacking with zombies (inc Undead Alchemist) and then Altar of Dementia.
Only running Elxir of immortality for GY hate at the moment as my circle of friends dont tend to target the GY that much.
There are some creatures that can direct damage due to power: Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. You can sac some huge zombies and win outright.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Had Master Biomancer, Corpsejack Menace, Clever Impersonator as copy of Corpsejack Menace then brought in Coat of Arms, so zombie tokens were 21/21 each - but someone actually brought GY hate and exiled Filth, Vengeful pharaoh so couldnt alpha swing (many chump) - Next turn, brought in Jarad sac two and won the game.
Still not a combo I'm actively searching for, just happens to crop up in 1/2 of games. People dont think its a threat until zombies are spawning as 6/6 minimum and by then its usually too late. Definitely something to develop further.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Thanks for the headsup! I haven't had a lot of time recently but I have made some subtle changes to the Budget Build. I've discussed said changes throughout the thread but haven't updated the main post. I probably would've forgotten that detail so thanks for pointing it out! I have to also add Baloth Null and some other cards to that particular list. I'll see if I can get around to it later on in the weekend.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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1x Butcher of Malakir
1x Corpse Connoisseur
1x Corpse Harvester
1x Death Baron
1x Diregraf Captain
1x Dowsing Shaman
1x Filth
1x Forgotten Creation
1x Gempalm Polluter
1x Grave Scrabbler
1x Gravespawn Sovereign
1x Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
1x Havengul Lich
1x Hell's Caretaker
1x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Krosan Restorer
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Narcomoeba
1x Noxious Ghoul
1x Nullmage Shepherd
1x Nyx Weaver
1x Possessed Skaab
1x Profaner of the Dead
1x Riftsweeper
1x Risen Executioner
1x Satyr Wayfinder
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Thunderfoot Baloth
1x Undead Alchemist
1x Undead Warchief
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Wonder
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Zombie Trailblazer
1x Zulaport Cutthroat
1x Blighted Woodland
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Coral Atoll
1x Dimir Aqueduct
1x Everglades
5x Forest
1x Golgari Rot Farm
5x Island
1x Jungle Basin
1x Mirrorpool
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Opulent Palace
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Simic Growth Chamber
1x Simic Guildgate
9x Swamp
1x Temple of the False God
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Unholy Grotto
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Westvale Abbey Flip
Enchantment (8)
1x Conspiracy
1x Endless Ranks of the Dead
1x Grave Betrayal
1x Mortuary
1x Opposition
1x Parallel Lives
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Rooftop Storm
Artifact (4)
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Altar of Dementia
1x Coat of Arms
1x Mesmeric Orb
1x Army of the Damned
1x Buried Alive
1x Dread Summons
1x Ever After
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Life from the Loam
1x Rise from the Grave
1x Victimize
1x Villainous Wealth
Instant (4)
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Empty the Pits
1x Grisly Salvage
1x Sudden Reclamation
Maybeboard (10)
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Cryptolith Rite
1x Dread Return
1x Extract from Darkness
1x Liliana's Indignation
1x Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
1x Prized Amalgam
1x Vedalken Orrery
1x Whip of Erebos
so the maybe board is full of cards i own that i'm debating about putting in there. only played the deck a few times, so i'm getting the swing of it. going to play test tonight if my group can get their stuff together to come play. basically looking for suggestions on my weak points and any advice from the more experienced pilots.
also if anyone has any questions about certain inclusions or exclusions, i'll be more than happy to discuss! a lot of times i find myself hyperfocused on a theme and end up missing some obvious choices.
GWKarametra, Hexproof IndestructableWG
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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so i've only cast it twice for less than 20 each time. it angers the group for sure. i ended up putting cavern in my elf deck, but this deck is more fun to play. i'll probably cut Villainous Wealth and replace it with Cryptolith Rite as if i get mana screw i can't do anything. thanks for the reply, i'll be play testing this over the next few weeks, hoping to get more than one game in.
GWKarametra, Hexproof IndestructableWG
Since we put stuff into the GY so quickly the four or more limit isnt that significant. Nor do you have to pay the mana and life cost of the reclamation.
Because of Kozilek/ulamog that shuffle quite often my graveyard, and because of them Oversold cemetery may be useless, so perhaps that's why they dont run it ?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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I was finally able to give the OP some much needed revision. It wasn't a massive revision but I have updates the latest changes. You can see exactly what they are in the change log. Again, thanks for pointing some things out.
Well I do try to at least answer posts as quickly as possible, thanks!
I'm still on the fence of swapping out Tortured Existence for Phyrexian Reclamation because if I needed to use the ability and didn't have any creatures in hand it would make me want to cut it out of the deck. Adding it to the Budget Build is definitely a possibility. However, I would have to see what to swap out to test it.
There are a couple of cards in the Main Build that I'm considering cutting yet I'd have to see what merits taking their place. Again, I want everything to be replaced with a creature. The average CMC of the deck has risen considerably so I'm considering cutting cards like Butcher of Malakir and Champion of Stray Souls. I'll probably add Meren of Clan Nel Toth for Butcher of Malakir. I'd still have to find a more suitable replacement for Champion of Stray Souls. However, Eldritch Moon will be out next and if it has more graveyard interactions then hopefully I can find something for the deck as well.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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and Entombso yay!EDIT:
Entomb already existed in modern border thanks to the Premium Deck Series: Graveborn.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Remember that the deck is unassuming and will do great in a meta where there are commander with a larger target on their heads. This deck is nowhere near as fast as say Boonweaver Giant, Hermit Druid, Uril, the Miststalker, Ad Nauseam, and other decks that win by turn 4. That being said, it would be easier to give you some suggestions that could be maybe more dependent on your meta if you could describe your situations. It may be as simple as swapping out the cards that pump the horde and give other boons for responses and ways to make the deck run faster. Or taking out some cards which don't really do anything in your situation. More tutors, maybe? But I could probably be more specific if you are as well.
A more cutthroat version of the deck revolves around not running any basics and then making sure to get Hermit Druid out with haste as well as having Sidisi, Brood Tyrant in play. This gives you an infinitely large horde with haste which is basically game over. I didn't want to build this deck like that because I found that winning that way wasn't really any fun.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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I actually tested the Cephalid Illusionist combo in the beginnings of the deck. I tried it with both Shuko and Lightning Greaves but found it too lackluster since equipping can only occur at sorcery speed. You're right in that I could probably include them in the Budget build, but Cephalid Illusionist on its own doesn't do much and Shuko is pretty much useless here on its own. Lightning Greaves is too expensive for the Budget Build, as well (as is Tezzeret the Seeker).
Zombie Master is actually an interesting suggestion. It does essentially grant all my zombies swampwalk with the added bonus of regeneration. However, it only grants those boons to zombies. That being said, I'd have to test to see what ends up being easier in the deck: having Zombie Master in play or Filth in the graveyard... I'm not completely discarding the idea - it's good enough to test. Zombie Master being a zombie means that it gets pumped from the other zombie lords even if it doesn't grant regeneration and swampwalk to itself.
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As for swapping out Traverse the Ulvenwald for a land, that doesn't seem like such a bad idea. However, I do run few lands as it is already and if I were to self-mill that card, it's harder to recover from the graveyard than a land would be. That's why I'm a bit on the fence about it. Maybe I could do that in the Budget Build. But, again, I'd have to see how much it'd raise the price of the deck, being as it's ~$2.50 - which isn't so bad a price for a very useful rare card.
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Seasons Past is a great card for when the game has a slow pace and you're setting up you wincon in the mid to late game. As you suggested, this goes really well with Entomb as well since you can return them to your hand with Seasons Past to rinse and repeat. However, all that work can be a bit too much. I can already pretty much tutor for whatever I want a couple of times by casting and recasting Sidisi, Undead Vizier from my graveyard in order to continue tutoring for what I may need. Remember that most reanimation effects in the deck are creature-based which is a plus for Sidisi, Brood Tyrant.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Question is, why are not you running fetch lands? Doesn't it help you get to your colors immediately? As a Sultan fanboy, I see 9 fetches, 3 shock lands, 3 Dual lands around here in the forum.
Would like to hear your thought on this. Thanks!
Hi Kirby! Sorry again haha! Another question, is this the final deck list you are running? or the one on 1st page?
Thanks!
The reason I don't run fetches is because their targets are few and far between. Also, without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth out, they don't tap for mana. Now, of course one can argue that they thin the deck out of lands to make better mills for Sidisi. However, all lands in the deck have a purpose. So I'm not gonna cut a utility land simply to thin the deck out.
As for what is the current list, the list in the first post was edited some while ago so those are the current lists for all three versions of the deck.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!