So I played a couple of games with Memnarch yesterday. And I found that in both games I did not want to cast or find Arcum Dagsson. I found that going for a big mana plan with lots of control is still probably the best way to play the deck, oddly. I feel like I've realized the archetype that Memnarch is, and it's exactly what I discovered previously: Control, then combo. I still like the shift to the Artifact based list, however. It's been extremely strong as of late and has been very consistent to what I want to have happen in the deck. Anyways, on to the game reports.
3 Man with Memnarch, Damia, Oona
What a cool game. Damia had probably one of the sweetest draws I've ever conceived of to happen for his deck: a T1 Lion's Eye Diamond into Necropotence. Wow. Fortunately I had the Force of Will for it, so he was totally blown out of the water. Which basically made this game a 1v1 vs. the Oona player, and I think I'm the better player and my decklist is streamlined a little more tightly. He went for a T1 Dark Ritual into a Talisman of Dominance and Vampiric Tutor[/CARD}. I play a land, fingering Trinket Mage as I anticipate that the Oona player is also going to go for the Necropotence. Pithing Needle will lock him out of a draw step. Which I proceed to do so. Oona later showed me a hand full of creature removal and no counterspells. I then begin to accrue gross mana advantage and card advantage over my hapless opponents, as Oona is locked out of card advantage and Damia is playing in topdeck mode. I win pretty overwhelmingly with a finishing move of Unwinding Clock and Mycosynth Lattice and, yours truly, Memnarch.
3 Man with Damia, Oona, Memnarch
Damia went first and I don't remember too much of the game, actually. I remember that Damia Timetwistered when I had just countered Oona's last chance at card advantage with Treasure Cruise. Oona draws into Deadeye Navigator and [CARD[Peregrine Drake[/CARD] after I had played a Pithing Needle naming Palinchron. He Oona'ed us out of the game.
I thought about Arcum when I was first crafting my list. Arcum is a way better commander than he is as a 1 of in the list. Being able to consistently drop Arcum when you need to is his strength. I have always played my list as control, then combo. Being able to accelerate extremely quickly allows us to hit the switch and go all out for the combos if we need to. Control is always a priority. The combos just happen naturally with Memnarch, from my experience.
I think I'm going to agree with you here, MuzzleMuffin. Arcum seems to not be as good as I want him to be, unfortunately. Being able to tutor is really strong, but it just wasn't consistently something I wanted to cast. For the creatures that I steal, I usually want to keep them.
I'm going to change the list to bring back the big mana and control aspects that the deck had. I'll have to change the list again, but I'll figure out the cuts I like and don't.
EDIT: I have updated the OP with the addition of Damia (as an entry in my playgroup), cutting of some cards that I'm no longer actively using in the Card Choices section, fixing a few grammar things, and changed the decklist with the additions shown below. The list now has more ramp and card draw sources than it previously did, which more suits the play-style that I enjoy and the deck philosophy I've described in the Deck Philosophy section.
The cards I've changed are:
-Arcum Dagsson +Reshape - I really like my artifacts, but I don't like waiting a turn cycle and broadcasting my play for a full turn cycle. In the most recent games that I played I had Arcum in hand with no real way to capitalize on his ability since I didn't have a dude I cared to sac for. I keep tutor density with this change.
-Silver Myr +Coldsteel Heart - trade mana rock for mana rock and eliminate a creature that can die to removal.
-Kuldotha Forgemaster +Bribery - I missed Bribery too much and it's really good at finding Consecrated Sphinx in opposing blue decks. I never really liked sac'ing my mana rocks to the Forgemaster since I am a control deck. Better suited for a dedicated Arcum deck.
-Swan Song +Extraplanar Lens - Cut a counter for a mana rock. I'm a little leery of this change, but Memnarch is more mana-hungry than most decks and Swan Song is a little more situational than just a hard counter.
-Nevinyrral's Disk +All is Dust - with the fast mana generation that this deck can do with mana rocks, it's a great wrath for what I need to do, since I usually can steal the remaining artifacts in play with Memnarch. Wrath effect for wrath effect that doesn't need to untap.
-Darksteel Forge +Recurring Insight - I wanted more card draw and with the removal of Arcum and the Disk, this just became an expensive artifact to have. It has great utility though, so it might come back in one day...
-Mox Opal +Pithing Needle - so I added this to my deck, I just don't remember what I took out to slide it in. I'll have to review my paper list to see what's up. EDIT: I remember now, it was Mox Opal. They're both Trinket Mage targets and due to the nature of my meta, Pithing Needle has become much better.
Thanks. I try to make cuts according to deck needs and to keep functionality in the deck.
As a general observation about my list, the list is streamlined for my group and I feel like I lose games only when my opponents either get really lucky or I draw terribly, which is a good feeling to have. It's not the fastest deck like Arcum, Azami, Zur, or Storm variants, but it does the job rather well in my group. My meta is already pretty advanced into a mid-range type of meta, where there's usually a fast combo deck that every one tries to stop, allowing one of those control players to assert blue supremacy and win the game. Usually me, heh. I feel like that's the best way to build decks, on a tangent. Having fast combo potential but building for the long game. This deck can theoretically win on T2 or T3 in a variety of ways, but it consistently wins in the T5 or T6 zone much more comfortably and consistently. I give any advice on the forums according to that philosophy, I realize.
The addition of Mana Crypt has been great. It is one of my absolute favorite cards to have in the opening hand because it allows for so much broken-ness. A T1 Rhystic Study is probably one of the greatest opening hands I can think of. Or a T1 Metalworker into a T2 Memnarch. Or a T1 Grim Monolith into an Unwinding Clock followed by a T2 Mind's Eye. All the good stuff it enables in magical Christmasland!
Just wanted to say how much I appreciate you making this primer. I put together the wizards version of the deck and was immediately crushing friends in my play group. I'm not sure if I will make the change like you did to the more artifact version since I'm seeing about a 75% win rate in my group. If the win rate starts dropping or if people really want me to mix it up I'll make the switch. On a side note I think you forgot to add mox opal to the new deck list (you're at 99 cards). Keep up the good work, great guide
Comrade Refute! Welcome to the Memnarch Brotherhood where we steal all the things!
If the wizard build is working for you, fantastic! That was my initial build and what I built my reputation on, so I'm glad that you were able to get some inspiration there. That brings great satisfaction to me as the creator of this Primer, so thank you for your support and compliments. I personally switched to the artifact version because it's a faster deck for my playgroup which has evolved to become faster as well. Fast artifact mana is why the switch was made and it's proven consistent so far, though I miss my Azami package a lot. If I can find a way to get it back in, I will.
Thanks for pointing out the omission of Mox Opal. I will add it to the list shortly, in addition to putting up my previous Wizard based list as another decklist for readers to consider.
Do you have any other questions? Any difficulties with your group so far (though I doubt it since you're at a 75% win rate, which is pretty awesome)?
I made a couple of changes to your initial wizard list: I took out Extraplanar Lens, Sigil Tracer, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All and added in Mana Crypt, Temporal Mastery, and Time Warp. Also added in all of the fetches. Seems like the games I lose just come down to poor draws with my opponents having great starts (sol ring into top on turn 1 or something similar). Losses that stand out other than that were a turn 2 Mind Twist for my whole hand and the occasional Craterhoof with a 4-5 creature board. A lot of my friends were appalled at just running 34 lands (might've trimmed down to 33 but forgot what I added), but in all reality in the 30+ games I've played I've only been mana screwed probably 2 times. Mikaeus has added in 3 more infinite combos so I'll have to see how the deck fares against that the next time we play.
With the new Memnarch version, I assume there's no Mishra's Workshop because of the insane cost?
No real difficulties with the group so far as shown by the win rate, although the deck is drawing a lot of hate and quite often if we play a 3 person EDH it might as well be a 2v1. Surprisingly enough the deck still holds its own even in a 2v1.
I was thinking of adding Sunder. What do you think about that? Seems like quite often I get ahead of my opponents with mana rocks so it would really be a nail in the coffin. Although other than that I guess it doesn't do that much. Figured it might help against Omnath ramp
Refute, Muzzlemuffin has played Sunder more than I, so he would have more of the feedback that I think you're looking for. Muzzle, what are your thoughts? From my perspective, it's a good card to run because, as you've noted, we generally pull ahead in mana rocks and a well-timed Sunder can just bury people. I think I would just prefer to answer the threats that the lands generate if I can or steal their mana base if I can't. It's a good card that's worthy to run in this list but depends on preference. I'm not particularly enamored of it.
Extraplanar Lens is the doubler that I could most easily cut since it has such a heavy restriction in exiling a land. Sigil Tracer is freaking awesome. I was able to copy my brother's Genesis Wave for 20 with it because it can copy non-targeting spells. I won that game. And at its worst, it usually becomes a way to take advantage of other people's ramp spells or draw spells. It's great in a blue meta because then your wizards can be additional counterspells by copying other people's! Adding in the Time spells seems pretty good so no real issue there for me.
Yeah, Mishra's Workshop probably won't ever be acquired by me at any point in my life because of it's dollar cost. I'm not sure if I would really like it as much, since it would basically is just a dead card that I can't tap for mana when I want to counter things.
All in all, I'm a little envious of your playgroup. The lack of blue in your regular group definitely shows the power of Blue. My playgroup is basically ALL blue-based, so I have to be a little more careful in the games that I play with regards to timing.
Mikaeus added more infinite combos, eh? Silly black mages. What can they do against the almighty Counterspell? The secret to making a good deck is to build towards a couple of combos and execute them consistently, not add more. I think you'll see his deck lose a little consistency as he adds in more combos.
Refute, Muzzlemuffin has played Sunder more than I, so he would have more of the feedback that I think you're looking for. Muzzle, what are your thoughts? From my perspective, it's a good card to run because, as you've noted, we generally pull ahead in mana rocks and a well-timed Sunder can just bury people. I think I would just prefer to answer the threats that the lands generate if I can or steal their mana base if I can't. It's a good card that's worthy to run in this list but depends on preference. I'm not particularly enamored of it.
Hey Refute, welcome to the discussion. My initial list ran Sunder and in the early days the card was a house. I would sometimes use it to completely screw over any blue opponent (by using it at the end of their turn usually forcing them to discard almost all their land) to ensure that I could combo off with the mana rocks on my next turn. Perhaps it is because my group is getting wiser, but it hasn't been resolving lately and when I find it early, I just wish it was something else. Feel free to test it. I think its a great card when considering its protection (semi protection more like it) for our combos. But as of right now Jace, the Mind Sculptor is occupying its spot.
Also my play group is as following (First commander on list is my opponents "main":
There is a lot of blue in our playgroup. Most of the lists are pretty competitive with their own tweeks. I agree with bear, I am envious of the lack of blue in your group. Sounds like Memdaddy would be all over it.
Dude. That's a lot of blue for sure. The Nicol Bolas deck would be well positioned with access to the respective Blue-hosers of Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast and all of the counters that we run as well.
How's the Zur deck? That and the Momir Vig deck would concern me the most. How do you fare against them?
Dude. That's a lot of blue for sure. The Nicol Bolas deck would be well positioned with access to the respective Blue-hosers of Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast and all of the counters that we run as well.
How's the Zur deck? That and the Momir Vig deck would concern me the most. How do you fare against them?
Nicol Bolas and Ruric Thar do not show up often. My group is getting together tonight so I will do a report.
Zur plays very little counterspells (I know, kinda weird) but almost always searches up Diplomatic Immunity first. If that is able to go off the game turns into Archenemy fast. Momir used to be Kruphix, he just reworked his deck and its mostly the same except for some new searchable combo pieces. The main problem with this guy is the green mass artifact hate he has access too. Even the Oloro's have some mass artifact as well. They are all decent players, we each are able to recognize who the threat is so games either go long, or end very fast when someone is able to combo early.
I usually play a mellow game trying to be as careful as possible not to draw attention to myself. But if I have the early ramp I'm definitely going to drop all the rocks. I let big things resolve that don't effect me knowing my opponents will have to deal with it (which they will, they all are in 2/3 colors so they have answers). Sometimes I catch the groups bluff, and if I am able to ramp hard and fast early I will just go for an infinite mana combo (assuming I have pieces) or drop Memnarch. Sometimes I may get 2 for 1'd (not ideal at all...) but I usually have a counter up if possible when doing things like that.
The most difficult aspect of the group is that everyone runs at least 1+ mass artifact removal card. And when someone goes for it everyone protects the wipe by countering my counter spells. But that is the nature of Memnarch. People know I will continue to grab combos out of nowhere and win on the spot if not left in check. Control is always priority if the thing we are trying to control is going to hurt us.
My sympathies. It was really tough playing Memnarch when there was so much mass artifact hate at the beginning of my meta, but it has since become less prevalent. My group has shifted to using point removal and counterspells, which makes it a little easier to keep the things I steal. A lot of the other decks I play against (Damia, Oona, Azami) are also pretty reliant on their mana rocks, so they are just as willing to counter mass-artifact destruction spells.
The best strategy I've found recently is to play a fast mana strategy into a quick Memnarch and then begin to steal my opponent's Islands as fast as possible so that I can keep them out of counter mana and control my non-Blue opponents. Otherwise, it's best to just slowly build a board presence and accumulate mana advantage. One of the best cards in this deck is Shimmer Myr. I can play it at instant speed and drop mana rocks at EOT so that I can untap on my turn with moar mana than my opponents and either continue to be the control player or press ahead and begin to be the threat. Unwinding Clock becomes really a fantastic tutor target at this point because it acts almost like a Prophet of Kruphix for the deck in conjunction with the Myr. Memnarch is great for this too since whatever he's stolen untaps too.
A player in our group just built a Mizzix Chaos deck. It was his first night with his new commander. I start with an interesting hand of Snow-Covered Island, Thawing Glaciers, Swan Song, Pact of Negation, Tezzeret the Seeker, Gauntlet of Power, Coldsteel Heart. I decided to lead out with the Thawing Glaciers because I wasn't positive I could draw a land to play the mana rock. Every one plays a land drop and passes. Fast forward I am minusing Tezzeret to get a basalt monolith (looking to get an infinite mana combo), pheldagriff is giving people cards, Momir is pretty tame at this moment he hasn't had a chance to take full advantage of his commander, and Mizzix just dropped a scrambleverse... Everything gets randomized, momir goes for his combos (somehow manages to get his commander back), I fight him drawing force of will and mindbreak trap (I am able to make it look like I have no answers), and his combos fizzle. Fast forward I am dropping Memnarch taking peoples things (mainly Momir's), Pheldagriff is tame, Mizzix is a little mana screwed, Momir draws into one of his combos, the whole table fights over the combo, he is able to pull through with his glen elendra and other backup, he drops Blasting Station and kills everyone. Memnarch was performing like an All-Star. I drew 3 of my zero mana counter spells and was able to take the whole table by suprise. I think if it was for that well timed scrambleverse the game would have been tied up in my favor. After seeing the new Momir deck I come to the conclusion that his deck needs a little work. THe other games he played he wasn't able to do much (needs more early ramp). But overall good games.
I don't know if you really need to change up your deck that much, MuzzleMuffin. It seems like the Momir Vig deck got lucky and you would have stolen way his tempo eventually. Besides, what was his infinite combo with Blasting Station? I wouldn't have pegged Momir to use an artifact based combo either... Memnarch takes advantage of those really hard. I'm sorry that there's a chaos deck in your meta...
I don't know if you really need to change up your deck that much, MuzzleMuffin. It seems like the Momir Vig deck got lucky and you would have stolen way his tempo eventually. Besides, what was his infinite combo with Blasting Station? I wouldn't have pegged Momir to use an artifact based combo either... Memnarch takes advantage of those really hard. I'm sorry that there's a chaos deck in your meta...
My list will continue to be tweaked. But overall the list will remain mostly unchanged. I will eventually tweak the flex spots like Mindslaver, Jace, etc.
I can't really remember what the combo was...the board was so clogged and the game took so long it was almost a welcomed death. But I know he is considering taking it out. Once his deck is fine tuned a little more he will be a force, just like his old Kruphix deck was.
Mizzix was a nice curve ball to our group.
I will continue to write up some more halfway decent reports when my group gets together.
Hey Benjameenbro - dont have anything constructive, just read your primer and enjoyed it. Good stuff robo-bro.
edit - something constructive - seems like you have a syntax error when you talk about animar and "hasty" things meaning to be a link to Maelstrom Wanderer
crush of [CARD=Maelstrom Wanderer[/CARD]hasty[/CARD], [CARD=Surrak Dragonclaw]uncounterable[/CARD] [CARD=Craterhoof Behemoth]stompy[/CARD]
Thanks, LordRewind! I hoped to make my OP entertaining and informative and I continually update it to reflect the card choices that I'm playing. Mono-Blue has been great for me and I hope that the Primer becomes the definitive place to go for people looking for Memnarch lists, variants, and card ideas.
In other news, I have found that Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron are becoming obsolete in my goldfishes. I find that I have them in hand occasionally and I just don't cast them because they're so expensive, CMC wise, to convert into a win or I have already won by the time I would get to cast them. It's been a weird, yet oddly satisfying moment to realize that the main engine I've depended on in mono-Blue has become a secondary, sometimes tertiary win-condition. May the glory of artifacts continue to surpass simple fleshlings! Though I will definitely continue to test the instances of when Deadeye and 'Chron come up. Otherwise, they're definitely on the chopping block along with Phantasmal Image and some of the other ETB creatures that are in the list.
Deadeye Navigator has been doing the same thing for me. However I do like that Palinchron works with all our mana doublers. I could see Deadeye being replaced, but I really like Palinchron.
What is your guys' opinion on Maze of Ith? This card has saved me multiple times in a game (an opponent forgot I had it) but I am starting to wonder if I want it to produce actual mana. I am on the fence about this one.
MuzzleMuffin, that is basically my list card for card except Karn and Tamiyo. That brings a lot of satisfaction to see other people posting a list that is basically mine and to see them be successful with it.
Maze of Ith is a good card in a creature based meta. If there are one or two creatures that are consistently attacking and chunking your life away, it has a lot of value in stopping said shenanigans. I've noticed that my playgroup is now switching to more mass artifact destruction. When an Animar deck is running Naturalize and Nature's Claim, you know that your deck is a definite presence in the meta. But that means I've lost a lot more games recently, and to a particular player as well, which is kind of annoying. I forgot to post the game reports from Tuesday! I'll have to do that sometime.
I've actually removed the Palinchron combo entirely in testing Teferi, Temporal Archmage as a general for the moment. When an artifact becomes a 1 card win condition with all the abundant mana rocks in the deck, it's hard to resist that. Seriously, you only need to add a few cards to have an entirely different general. The first time I did the infinite combo with The Chain Veil, my playgroup was pretty annoyed, haha. Anyways, I've found that I need to tweak my playstyle a little bit more, as I've been too aggressive with dropping early mana stones and playing a fast Memnarch. I've drawn too much attention to myself and I've lost more games consequently because of that. But I haven't missed Palichron and Co. very much so far, more testing is needed though.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage is definitely a tier 1 commander (in my opinion). I am sure you will find success with him since our deck doesn't need very many changes to be focused on Teferi. I don't think I can stay away from Memnarch, no matter how much hate they pack I will always come back. Keep me updated.
Has anyone seen anything interesting from Shadows Over Innistrad yet? Nothing seems to pique my interest.
I like having the ability to switch between generals as it gives the illusion of variety. It also helps me to understand the strengths of my deck a little better as I see lines that would be good with Memnarch whilst playing as Teferi. But I too am sold on Memnarch as my general; Teferi is a nice distraction and breaking the rules with The Chain Veil is quite a bit of fun.
Nothing in the new Innistrad set stands out, which is a shame considering how flavorful it is. Most of the good blue cards cost too much and Investigate as a mechanic would be so much more accessible if it only cost 1 to sac the clues. But, they cost 2. Bleh. I'm hoping that I'll get the chance to write out a game report or two, as my memory of those games is fast fading. I lost every game though, which is unusual and humbling to admit. I'm still going without the Palinchron package and I've not noticed a discernible difference in how my games play out. Granted, those only have been 1v1's and goldfishes, so more substantial testing is in order.
Oh, the joys of a busy life. I've been in the process of buying and moving into a new house. I've been rather busy accordingly and the only games I played were with my Tasigur list. I'll probably be on a little hiatus while I get my life figured out and settled. Carry on, mono-Blue comrades! I will rejoin you in your games!
Well, it's been quite a while since I have had the time to post. I'm successfully moved into the new house and now the next hurdle in life: welcoming a new baby on 5/30. So... my time to play games as frequently will be VERY limited indeed with the family addition that is coming.
But, in other news, I've tweaked the list a little bit more to become more cutthroat. I've tweaked the list to remove more of the utility creatures in favor of counterspells and ramp. I also removed the Metalworker + Staff of Domination combination and it seems to be working out a little better for me. I'll try and have some game reports for the thread once our internet is installed.
EDIT: 4 Man with Teferi (me), Animar, Nekusar, Sliver Queen
First, I will say that I have changed the general for my mono-Blue deck to Teferi and it has been...ruthless. Having a one-card win condition in The Chain Veil is too good (if confused, see the link here, second post). I still create infinite mana, and much more easily with Teferi than with the traditional means of mono-Blue. Anyways. I start the game with a Mana Vault, two Islands, Transmute Artifact, Recurring Insight, and a Worn Powerstone. I draw into a Sol Ring. T1, Sol Ring into the Vault (and I'm going first off the dice roll). T2 Teferi into a Recurring Insight, draw 7 cards. T3, draw another 7 cards, create some mana with Teferi and Transmute Artifact into The Chain Veil and win by stacking the planeswalker activations enough times to create infinite mana and then dig to find Memnarch and steal all the things. A merciless game, and so after explaining how I would win on T3, I decided to continue the game on for 10+ turns to allow people to play an interactive game and not go infinite. It turned out to be a relatively enjoyable game, with counterspells happening, wraths all over the place, and some interesting interactions revealed for my deck.
In playing this new general, however, I find myself having less fun. My playgroup, normally pretty tolerant of degenerate combos and ruthless games, mentioned that the games seemed non-interactive for completely and that I was just winning too quickly. I don't know if this is a bad thing or if it's time for my meta to advance. Either way, I think I might go back to Memdaddy at the helm with an optimized Wizard package (since it was a little slower than the artifact based list). I go back and forth on changing it back to the Wizard based list or the Artifact based list, and so I wanted to ask for some help here. What are the Wizards that have been the best to have in play? Which have not? Which artifacts are fantastic in your list and which aren't? I'm hoping that I'll get some good feedback here so that I can restore the good graces of my playgroup when I have the opportunity to play again.
3 Man with Memnarch, Damia, Oona
3 Man with Damia, Oona, Memnarch
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm going to change the list to bring back the big mana and control aspects that the deck had. I'll have to change the list again, but I'll figure out the cuts I like and don't.
EDIT: I have updated the OP with the addition of Damia (as an entry in my playgroup), cutting of some cards that I'm no longer actively using in the Card Choices section, fixing a few grammar things, and changed the decklist with the additions shown below. The list now has more ramp and card draw sources than it previously did, which more suits the play-style that I enjoy and the deck philosophy I've described in the Deck Philosophy section.
The cards I've changed are:
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Overall I like the cuts, even if I am still playing most of the things you cut. I like that you basically put in the same effect. Seems good to me.
As a general observation about my list, the list is streamlined for my group and I feel like I lose games only when my opponents either get really lucky or I draw terribly, which is a good feeling to have. It's not the fastest deck like Arcum, Azami, Zur, or Storm variants, but it does the job rather well in my group. My meta is already pretty advanced into a mid-range type of meta, where there's usually a fast combo deck that every one tries to stop, allowing one of those control players to assert blue supremacy and win the game. Usually me, heh. I feel like that's the best way to build decks, on a tangent. Having fast combo potential but building for the long game. This deck can theoretically win on T2 or T3 in a variety of ways, but it consistently wins in the T5 or T6 zone much more comfortably and consistently. I give any advice on the forums according to that philosophy, I realize.
The addition of Mana Crypt has been great. It is one of my absolute favorite cards to have in the opening hand because it allows for so much broken-ness. A T1 Rhystic Study is probably one of the greatest opening hands I can think of. Or a T1 Metalworker into a T2 Memnarch. Or a T1 Grim Monolith into an Unwinding Clock followed by a T2 Mind's Eye. All the good stuff it enables in magical Christmasland!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
If the wizard build is working for you, fantastic! That was my initial build and what I built my reputation on, so I'm glad that you were able to get some inspiration there. That brings great satisfaction to me as the creator of this Primer, so thank you for your support and compliments. I personally switched to the artifact version because it's a faster deck for my playgroup which has evolved to become faster as well. Fast artifact mana is why the switch was made and it's proven consistent so far, though I miss my Azami package a lot. If I can find a way to get it back in, I will.
Thanks for pointing out the omission of Mox Opal. I will add it to the list shortly, in addition to putting up my previous Wizard based list as another decklist for readers to consider.
Do you have any other questions? Any difficulties with your group so far (though I doubt it since you're at a 75% win rate, which is pretty awesome)?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I made a couple of changes to your initial wizard list: I took out Extraplanar Lens, Sigil Tracer, and Boseiju, Who Shelters All and added in Mana Crypt, Temporal Mastery, and Time Warp. Also added in all of the fetches. Seems like the games I lose just come down to poor draws with my opponents having great starts (sol ring into top on turn 1 or something similar). Losses that stand out other than that were a turn 2 Mind Twist for my whole hand and the occasional Craterhoof with a 4-5 creature board. A lot of my friends were appalled at just running 34 lands (might've trimmed down to 33 but forgot what I added), but in all reality in the 30+ games I've played I've only been mana screwed probably 2 times. Mikaeus has added in 3 more infinite combos so I'll have to see how the deck fares against that the next time we play.
All star cards for me have been: Patron Wizard, Trickbind, Treachery, Bribery, and Consecrated Sphinx. I didn't think Sigil Tracer did a lot so I cut that, but I am thinking of adding it back in after learning I can copy non targeted spells like Cultivate.
With the new Memnarch version, I assume there's no Mishra's Workshop because of the insane cost?
No real difficulties with the group so far as shown by the win rate, although the deck is drawing a lot of hate and quite often if we play a 3 person EDH it might as well be a 2v1. Surprisingly enough the deck still holds its own even in a 2v1.
I was thinking of adding Sunder. What do you think about that? Seems like quite often I get ahead of my opponents with mana rocks so it would really be a nail in the coffin. Although other than that I guess it doesn't do that much. Figured it might help against Omnath ramp
Extraplanar Lens is the doubler that I could most easily cut since it has such a heavy restriction in exiling a land. Sigil Tracer is freaking awesome. I was able to copy my brother's Genesis Wave for 20 with it because it can copy non-targeting spells. I won that game. And at its worst, it usually becomes a way to take advantage of other people's ramp spells or draw spells. It's great in a blue meta because then your wizards can be additional counterspells by copying other people's! Adding in the Time spells seems pretty good so no real issue there for me.
Yeah, Mishra's Workshop probably won't ever be acquired by me at any point in my life because of it's dollar cost. I'm not sure if I would really like it as much, since it would basically is just a dead card that I can't tap for mana when I want to counter things.
All in all, I'm a little envious of your playgroup. The lack of blue in your regular group definitely shows the power of Blue. My playgroup is basically ALL blue-based, so I have to be a little more careful in the games that I play with regards to timing.
Mikaeus added more infinite combos, eh? Silly black mages. What can they do against the almighty Counterspell? The secret to making a good deck is to build towards a couple of combos and execute them consistently, not add more. I think you'll see his deck lose a little consistency as he adds in more combos.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Hey Refute, welcome to the discussion. My initial list ran Sunder and in the early days the card was a house. I would sometimes use it to completely screw over any blue opponent (by using it at the end of their turn usually forcing them to discard almost all their land) to ensure that I could combo off with the mana rocks on my next turn. Perhaps it is because my group is getting wiser, but it hasn't been resolving lately and when I find it early, I just wish it was something else. Feel free to test it. I think its a great card when considering its protection (semi protection more like it) for our combos. But as of right now Jace, the Mind Sculptor is occupying its spot.
Also my play group is as following (First commander on list is my opponents "main":
Player 1: Zur the Enchanter, Marrow-Gnawer, Karona, False God
Player 2: Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Player 3: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary, Mayael the Anima
Player 5: Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Phelddagrif
Player 6: Nicol Bolas
Player 7: Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Me: Memnarch, Diaochan, Artful Beauty
There is a lot of blue in our playgroup. Most of the lists are pretty competitive with their own tweeks. I agree with bear, I am envious of the lack of blue in your group. Sounds like Memdaddy would be all over it.
How's the Zur deck? That and the Momir Vig deck would concern me the most. How do you fare against them?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Nicol Bolas and Ruric Thar do not show up often. My group is getting together tonight so I will do a report.
Zur plays very little counterspells (I know, kinda weird) but almost always searches up Diplomatic Immunity first. If that is able to go off the game turns into Archenemy fast. Momir used to be Kruphix, he just reworked his deck and its mostly the same except for some new searchable combo pieces. The main problem with this guy is the green mass artifact hate he has access too. Even the Oloro's have some mass artifact as well. They are all decent players, we each are able to recognize who the threat is so games either go long, or end very fast when someone is able to combo early.
I usually play a mellow game trying to be as careful as possible not to draw attention to myself. But if I have the early ramp I'm definitely going to drop all the rocks. I let big things resolve that don't effect me knowing my opponents will have to deal with it (which they will, they all are in 2/3 colors so they have answers). Sometimes I catch the groups bluff, and if I am able to ramp hard and fast early I will just go for an infinite mana combo (assuming I have pieces) or drop Memnarch. Sometimes I may get 2 for 1'd (not ideal at all...) but I usually have a counter up if possible when doing things like that.
The most difficult aspect of the group is that everyone runs at least 1+ mass artifact removal card. And when someone goes for it everyone protects the wipe by countering my counter spells. But that is the nature of Memnarch. People know I will continue to grab combos out of nowhere and win on the spot if not left in check. Control is always priority if the thing we are trying to control is going to hurt us.
The best strategy I've found recently is to play a fast mana strategy into a quick Memnarch and then begin to steal my opponent's Islands as fast as possible so that I can keep them out of counter mana and control my non-Blue opponents. Otherwise, it's best to just slowly build a board presence and accumulate mana advantage. One of the best cards in this deck is Shimmer Myr. I can play it at instant speed and drop mana rocks at EOT so that I can untap on my turn with moar mana than my opponents and either continue to be the control player or press ahead and begin to be the threat. Unwinding Clock becomes really a fantastic tutor target at this point because it acts almost like a Prophet of Kruphix for the deck in conjunction with the Myr. Memnarch is great for this too since whatever he's stolen untaps too.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Memnarch, Phelddagrif, Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary:
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
My list will continue to be tweaked. But overall the list will remain mostly unchanged. I will eventually tweak the flex spots like Mindslaver, Jace, etc.
I can't really remember what the combo was...the board was so clogged and the game took so long it was almost a welcomed death. But I know he is considering taking it out. Once his deck is fine tuned a little more he will be a force, just like his old Kruphix deck was.
Mizzix was a nice curve ball to our group.
I will continue to write up some more halfway decent reports when my group gets together.
edit - something constructive - seems like you have a syntax error when you talk about animar and "hasty" things meaning to be a link to Maelstrom Wanderer
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
In other news, I have found that Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron are becoming obsolete in my goldfishes. I find that I have them in hand occasionally and I just don't cast them because they're so expensive, CMC wise, to convert into a win or I have already won by the time I would get to cast them. It's been a weird, yet oddly satisfying moment to realize that the main engine I've depended on in mono-Blue has become a secondary, sometimes tertiary win-condition. May the glory of artifacts continue to surpass simple fleshlings! Though I will definitely continue to test the instances of when Deadeye and 'Chron come up. Otherwise, they're definitely on the chopping block along with Phantasmal Image and some of the other ETB creatures that are in the list.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
What is your guys' opinion on Maze of Ith? This card has saved me multiple times in a game (an opponent forgot I had it) but I am starting to wonder if I want it to produce actual mana. I am on the fence about this one.
Off topic, is this your MTGO list Bear?
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/388739#paper
Maze of Ith is a good card in a creature based meta. If there are one or two creatures that are consistently attacking and chunking your life away, it has a lot of value in stopping said shenanigans. I've noticed that my playgroup is now switching to more mass artifact destruction. When an Animar deck is running Naturalize and Nature's Claim, you know that your deck is a definite presence in the meta. But that means I've lost a lot more games recently, and to a particular player as well, which is kind of annoying. I forgot to post the game reports from Tuesday! I'll have to do that sometime.
I've actually removed the Palinchron combo entirely in testing Teferi, Temporal Archmage as a general for the moment. When an artifact becomes a 1 card win condition with all the abundant mana rocks in the deck, it's hard to resist that. Seriously, you only need to add a few cards to have an entirely different general. The first time I did the infinite combo with The Chain Veil, my playgroup was pretty annoyed, haha. Anyways, I've found that I need to tweak my playstyle a little bit more, as I've been too aggressive with dropping early mana stones and playing a fast Memnarch. I've drawn too much attention to myself and I've lost more games consequently because of that. But I haven't missed Palichron and Co. very much so far, more testing is needed though.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Has anyone seen anything interesting from Shadows Over Innistrad yet? Nothing seems to pique my interest.
Nothing in the new Innistrad set stands out, which is a shame considering how flavorful it is. Most of the good blue cards cost too much and Investigate as a mechanic would be so much more accessible if it only cost 1 to sac the clues. But, they cost 2. Bleh. I'm hoping that I'll get the chance to write out a game report or two, as my memory of those games is fast fading. I lost every game though, which is unusual and humbling to admit. I'm still going without the Palinchron package and I've not noticed a discernible difference in how my games play out. Granted, those only have been 1v1's and goldfishes, so more substantial testing is in order.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
But, in other news, I've tweaked the list a little bit more to become more cutthroat. I've tweaked the list to remove more of the utility creatures in favor of counterspells and ramp. I also removed the Metalworker + Staff of Domination combination and it seems to be working out a little better for me. I'll try and have some game reports for the thread once our internet is installed.
EDIT: 4 Man with Teferi (me), Animar, Nekusar, Sliver Queen
In playing this new general, however, I find myself having less fun. My playgroup, normally pretty tolerant of degenerate combos and ruthless games, mentioned that the games seemed non-interactive for completely and that I was just winning too quickly. I don't know if this is a bad thing or if it's time for my meta to advance. Either way, I think I might go back to Memdaddy at the helm with an optimized Wizard package (since it was a little slower than the artifact based list). I go back and forth on changing it back to the Wizard based list or the Artifact based list, and so I wanted to ask for some help here. What are the Wizards that have been the best to have in play? Which have not? Which artifacts are fantastic in your list and which aren't? I'm hoping that I'll get some good feedback here so that I can restore the good graces of my playgroup when I have the opportunity to play again.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager