So here is my layout for Zedruu. My main goal in creating the deck was to cause as much chaos as possible, however with the few times I've played it here are the things I've come to realize: my win cons are hard to achieve, I need better protection for Zedruu, I need more ways to donate things, and I need more protection in general.
I had a few more chaotic cards, but my play group hates them. Thieves Auction I can understand. I feel Timesifter I can understand as well, but I still think its funny. Alas, those have gotten cut.
Other things I've considered:
- More protection for Zedruu such as Lightening Greaves and Vanishing
- Combo win with Nin, the Pain Artist and Stuffy Doll although I don't want to accidentally deck myself. Although I could see mill becoming a potential win con if I donate Creepy Doll to an opponent and target it with Nin
- More board wipes and counter spells
- I'm open to the idea of more of a chaoS.control deck as well, I'm just not sure what to add/remove
I realize the list doesn't total to 100. I have not included basic lands, and I removed some cards from my deck. Here it is now:
If you really need ways to donate/trade permanents, then check out Donate, Juxtapose, Vedalken Plotter. Personally, I find the best cards to donate are enchantments (e.g., Nevermore, Oblivion Ring), and spent mana-rocks (e.g., Sphere of the Suns), instead of cards that just piss people off.
Also, I don't know how much mileage your getting out of Void Stalker, kinda seems like and expensive tuck. Consider Hinder, or Unexpectedly Absent. Both can be used to tuck Commanders, but at instant speed. Keep in mind you can cast Unexpectedly Absent for x=0, in response to someone tutoring/searching their deck.
Taniwha and Bazaar Trader I'm rather split about. Taniwha is still a 7/7 tramply beater. Bazaar Trader hits the weakest of targets, meaning non-enchantments.
Confusion in the Ranks seems... dangerous to one's border position if you lose Zedruu and want to re-cast any time soon.
Witch Hunt is TERRIBLE on average, Zedruu gains you life, and if it comes back to you, it has an upkeep cost to re-donate it. Jinxed Choker is of a similar vein.
Thoughtlash I ended up pulling from my build, after I checked the ruling that you can't insta-kill with it anymore. It's either a VERY slow kill, or eats removal. Neither are bad, but you have more immediate cards you could play. Illusions of Grandeur
Trading Post and Tangle Wire don't seem to be good fits here... Not sure the purpose of Post, and Wire is better in a stax deck, which this isn't. Propaganda effects would likely serve you better.
Knowledge Pool ...Unsure how I feel about it, I see the purpose you're going for, but... seems lackluster, a bit fragile and unlikely to get you the "ends" desire by the "means".
Sphere of the Suns is... a touch dangerous/weak. It comes in tapped, you can only pull off 1 counter a turn. Pentad Prism is better, it's a "free" card, and can get you the colors needed to donate if you have a skewed mana base.
Also, Void Stalker is AWESOME. It's about all I could ask for. Rattlesnake to bait out removal, and if it stays for any length of time, it tucks all sorts of trouble. (generals/commander being most notable).
-------------
for my own personal adds - Mine runs more pillowfort, Propagandas everywhere, Nevermore generals, etc.
Venser, the Sojourner his bounce is AMAZING... play him, next turn drop Illusions, donate, blink. Repeat as necessary.
Hanna, Ship's Navigator is good recursion. Other recursion is likely desired, but none of it is at this level. I love it in conjunction with Wild Research. If you discard a useful card, you're likely to get it back with her.
There are probably others, but I don't have the deck in front of me, so...
Zedruu is a very difficult deck to win with in Multiplayer. I'm the only one in my 3 playgroups who has done so at all (3 games total) in our cutthroat meta. I've found that utilizing and enchantment themed control list has been the most optimal approach for me.
Lands and Enchantments (usually with global effects) are the best targets for donating because someone will usually want to see one stay on the table. I donate cards like Embargo, Moat, and the like because the player that is behind will usually want these effects on the table. With Zedruu, I like Zur's Weirding as a win con. If you've donated enough permenants and swept the table enough, you can lock down the whole table with Zedruu's upkeep life gain trigger, while they'll be scrambling to limit your options by negating your draws. Zedruu helps himself break the parity with the donate ability, to help lockout the table.
I also find that Zedruu wants cheap and/ or effective time walk abilities. The two that I use (and I have them all) are Temporal Mastery and Time Stretch: the former because it's cheap enough to allow you to donate the turn you cast it, and the latter because it gives you a second additional turn to reward you for wasting your actual turn tapping out. The time walks help me get ahead on upkeep triggers to keep even with your opponents as you give your board away.
I stray away from cards like I-ring and never more because there is no incentive for the opponent to keep it on the table. If you removed their permenant, they're going to want to break it to get it back. If you give it to an opponent who doesn't own it, they are not going to want it to sit idly and enable you to draw cards. Global effects have different effects on all opponents at different stages of the game. Use this fact to your advantage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Spawnbroker, Puca's Mischief, Vedalken Plotter all pretty much suck. The best thing I can say is Spawn Broker might grab a nice utility creature and Vedalken Plotter might swap for a sweet land like Maze of Ith or even a Gaea's Cradle (which at best keeps it away from said opponent)
I agree with most of what Kokoro says except for these three. Puca's Mischief is absurdly good in Zedruu. It's letting you trade up, multiple times. Even better when you run Venser and blink it the traded item back, rinse repeat. Or trade a noncreature permanent for a creature, then use Homeward Path to get your creature back, rinse repeat. Vedalken Plotter trades up lands, while offering up a free trigger for Zedruu that is very safe (people won't kill off your random donated Plains or whatever), and the Plotter himself can be traded/donated away too. Spawnbroker is impressive in mosts lists unless all your donating creatures a 1/X. If you can consistently donate away 2+ power creatures you'll be snagging amazing utility creatures from your opponents like Oracle of Mul Daya.
my win cons are hard to achieve
Take a good hard look at your cards and figure out how they mesh together, then you'll find out how to win. You need some order to that chaos.
For example, you can play Scrambleverse.. and then cast Brand. Chaos, but still winning.
Your real problem is that you have no ramp! You have like 2 ramp cards in there! No bueno. Must have much, much more. Zedruu costs 1WUR. Donating a single thing costs WUR. That's 1WWUURR to cast Zedruu the first time and donate something. 7 mana! And super color-intensive. Run much much more ramp. I run 10 ramp cards not counting Ral Zarek's untap land ability.
Actually, Delandel, I stick by most of what I said. Puca's Mischief is probably the best of the worst in that list. Puca's needs to live until upkeep, only hits once an upkeep. Venser, the Sojourner (which isn't in the list) is barely abusable with it, as really Venser doesn't need it to abuse the better donations (Illusions of Grandeur)
Vedalken Plotter, sure no one is going to bother with a land usually, though the creature body isn't going to get much for a trade, is likely to die by just looking at it.
Spawnbroker, especially in this list, is the worse of the bunch. As you put it, it's good for switching for a Oracle of Mul Daya... he has honestly 1 viable creature to do that swap, and he can't even do it (Norin the Wary is really the only one I'd consider) Azor's Elocutors might be the next viable, if you have Homeward Path on the board.
As for your own suggestions, Daring Thief, how do you get it to untap? there isn't anything to tap it down first, and it will never survive combat. Djinn of Infinite Deceits is also a poor choice. At best, he would need a blink deck to adequately use it, I run it in Roon of the Hidden Realm to a large success. Other than the pure chaos of swapping players creatures around, he isn't going to get a large bit of value out of it.
Here is an EXCELLENT thread outlining a lot of possible combos in a Zedruu deck. Probably the most interesting write-up I've found with a recent update.
I'm working on updating my Zedruu deck right now ... here's the current list
A nice little thing with Daring Thief is Aura of Dominion ... I am now looking for one. :-P
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard : BR Zombies Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
Win cons:
- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
- Psychosis Crawler
- Thought Lash with a lot of cumulative upkeeps
- Form of the Dragon followed by an opponent taking them out
- Illusions of Grandeur and Delusions of Mediocrity
I had a few more chaotic cards, but my play group hates them. Thieves Auction I can understand. I feel Timesifter I can understand as well, but I still think its funny. Alas, those have gotten cut.
Other things I've considered:
- More protection for Zedruu such as Lightening Greaves and Vanishing
- Combo win with Nin, the Pain Artist and Stuffy Doll although I don't want to accidentally deck myself. Although I could see mill becoming a potential win con if I donate Creepy Doll to an opponent and target it with Nin
- More board wipes and counter spells
- I'm open to the idea of more of a chaoS.control deck as well, I'm just not sure what to add/remove
I realize the list doesn't total to 100. I have not included basic lands, and I removed some cards from my deck. Here it is now:
1 Zedruu the Greathearted
Creatures:
2 Akroan Horse
3 Azor’s Elocutors
4 Bazaar Trader
5 Body Double
6 Bronze Bombshell
7 Cinder Giant
8 Fatespinner
9 Grid Monitor
10 Keranos, God of Storms
11 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
12 Norin the Wary
13 Psychosis Crawler
14 Serra Avatar
15 Spawnbroker
16 Steel Golem
17 Taniwha
18 Vedalken Plotter
19 Void Stalker
Enchantments:
20 Arcane Laboratory
21 Assemble the Legion
22 Celestial Dawn
23 Confusion in the Ranks
24 Delusions of Mediocrity
25 Dovescape
26 Eye of the Storm
27 Form of the Dragon
28 Grip of Chaos
29 Hive Mind
30 Illusions of Grandeur
31 Lightmine Field
32 Manabarbs
33 Mindmoil
34 Oath of Lieges
35 Possibility Storm
36 Powerstone Minefield
37 Puca’s Mischief
38 Pyromancer’s Swath
39 Rule of Law
40 Solitary Confinement
41 Statecraft
42 Thought Lash
43 Wild Evocation
44 Witch Hunt
45 Eternal Dominion
46 Goblin Game
47 Warp World
Instants:
48 Radiate
Artifacts:
49 Chromatic Lantern
50 Gate to the Aether
51 Jinxed Choker
52 Knowledge Pool
53 Sol Ring
54 Sphere of Resistance
55 Tangle Wire
56 Trading Post
57 Venser’s Journal
Land:
58 Azorius Guildgate
59 Boros Garrison
60 Boros Guidlgate
61 Cascade Bluffs
62 Command Tower
63 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
64 Glacial Fortress
65 Hallowed Fountain
66 Izzet Boilerworks
67 Izzet Guildgate
68 Reliquary Tower
69 Sacred Foundry
70 Seachrome Coast
71 Sejiri Refuge
72 Steam Vents
73 Temple of the False Gods
74 Thespian’s Stage
Any ideas would be greatly welcomed! Thank you!
Mind Over Matter + (Temple Bell or Otherworld Atlas), will help with your win-cons Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Psychosis Crawler. and obviously helps you look through your library
How about Purphoros, God of the Forge, has great interaction with with Assemble the Legion and Dovescape
If you really need ways to donate/trade permanents, then check out Donate, Juxtapose, Vedalken Plotter. Personally, I find the best cards to donate are enchantments (e.g., Nevermore, Oblivion Ring), and spent mana-rocks (e.g., Sphere of the Suns), instead of cards that just piss people off.
Also, I don't know how much mileage your getting out of Void Stalker, kinda seems like and expensive tuck. Consider Hinder, or Unexpectedly Absent. Both can be used to tuck Commanders, but at instant speed. Keep in mind you can cast Unexpectedly Absent for x=0, in response to someone tutoring/searching their deck.
-------------
Needs less Grid Monitor/Steel Golem. Most decks have ways of getting rid of them easily, being creatures.
Bronze Bombshell, Cinder Giant, Spawnbroker, Puca's Mischief, Vedalken Plotter all pretty much suck. The best thing I can say is Spawn Broker might grab a nice utility creature and Vedalken Plotter might swap for a sweet land like Maze of Ith or even a Gaea's Cradle (which at best keeps it away from said opponent)
Taniwha and Bazaar Trader I'm rather split about. Taniwha is still a 7/7 tramply beater. Bazaar Trader hits the weakest of targets, meaning non-enchantments.
Confusion in the Ranks seems... dangerous to one's border position if you lose Zedruu and want to re-cast any time soon.
Witch Hunt is TERRIBLE on average, Zedruu gains you life, and if it comes back to you, it has an upkeep cost to re-donate it. Jinxed Choker is of a similar vein.
Wild Evocation/Gate to the Æther - Braids, Conjurer Adept effects tend to hurt you more than help...
Powerstone Minefield I think could switch with Lightmine Field. I like the scalability better.
Thoughtlash I ended up pulling from my build, after I checked the ruling that you can't insta-kill with it anymore. It's either a VERY slow kill, or eats removal. Neither are bad, but you have more immediate cards you could play. Illusions of Grandeur
Trading Post and Tangle Wire don't seem to be good fits here... Not sure the purpose of Post, and Wire is better in a stax deck, which this isn't. Propaganda effects would likely serve you better.
Knowledge Pool ...Unsure how I feel about it, I see the purpose you're going for, but... seems lackluster, a bit fragile and unlikely to get you the "ends" desire by the "means".
Warp World is dangerous, Rith, the Awakener/Rhys the Redeemed style decks LOVE seeing that card.
Delusions of Mediocrity is a little weak, looking at big brother Illusions of Grandeur
----------------
All that being said, I do like Ultrapathy's suggestions, over all.
Mind over Matter+Temple Bell etc. is fine. Not ideal for this deck, but has potential.
Purphoros, God of the Forge could be a good add, with Norin the Wary especially (with your other tokens producers as well, of course)
I'll argue about Donate/Juxtapose/Vedalken Plotter though. 1-shots, not as good over all.
Sphere of the Suns is... a touch dangerous/weak. It comes in tapped, you can only pull off 1 counter a turn. Pentad Prism is better, it's a "free" card, and can get you the colors needed to donate if you have a skewed mana base.
Also, Void Stalker is AWESOME. It's about all I could ask for. Rattlesnake to bait out removal, and if it stays for any length of time, it tucks all sorts of trouble. (generals/commander being most notable).
-------------
for my own personal adds - Mine runs more pillowfort, Propagandas everywhere, Nevermore generals, etc.
Venser, the Sojourner his bounce is AMAZING... play him, next turn drop Illusions, donate, blink. Repeat as necessary.
Hanna, Ship's Navigator is good recursion. Other recursion is likely desired, but none of it is at this level. I love it in conjunction with Wild Research. If you discard a useful card, you're likely to get it back with her.
There are probably others, but I don't have the deck in front of me, so...
Lands and Enchantments (usually with global effects) are the best targets for donating because someone will usually want to see one stay on the table. I donate cards like Embargo, Moat, and the like because the player that is behind will usually want these effects on the table. With Zedruu, I like Zur's Weirding as a win con. If you've donated enough permenants and swept the table enough, you can lock down the whole table with Zedruu's upkeep life gain trigger, while they'll be scrambling to limit your options by negating your draws. Zedruu helps himself break the parity with the donate ability, to help lockout the table.
I also find that Zedruu wants cheap and/ or effective time walk abilities. The two that I use (and I have them all) are Temporal Mastery and Time Stretch: the former because it's cheap enough to allow you to donate the turn you cast it, and the latter because it gives you a second additional turn to reward you for wasting your actual turn tapping out. The time walks help me get ahead on upkeep triggers to keep even with your opponents as you give your board away.
I stray away from cards like I-ring and never more because there is no incentive for the opponent to keep it on the table. If you removed their permenant, they're going to want to break it to get it back. If you give it to an opponent who doesn't own it, they are not going to want it to sit idly and enable you to draw cards. Global effects have different effects on all opponents at different stages of the game. Use this fact to your advantage.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I agree with most of what Kokoro says except for these three. Puca's Mischief is absurdly good in Zedruu. It's letting you trade up, multiple times. Even better when you run Venser and blink it the traded item back, rinse repeat. Or trade a noncreature permanent for a creature, then use Homeward Path to get your creature back, rinse repeat. Vedalken Plotter trades up lands, while offering up a free trigger for Zedruu that is very safe (people won't kill off your random donated Plains or whatever), and the Plotter himself can be traded/donated away too. Spawnbroker is impressive in mosts lists unless all your donating creatures a 1/X. If you can consistently donate away 2+ power creatures you'll be snagging amazing utility creatures from your opponents like Oracle of Mul Daya.
Take a good hard look at your cards and figure out how they mesh together, then you'll find out how to win. You need some order to that chaos.
For example, you can play Scrambleverse.. and then cast Brand. Chaos, but still winning.
This is the sad fact of Zedruu, it's a 2/4 with no defense and any good opponent will target her to deny the card draw. Gift of Immortality and Indestructability are good answers as they protect from some removal, most board wipes, and you can donate the auras away. You also have Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots which work double duty with cards that need to tap like Bazaar Trader or Djinn of Infinite Deceits.
Your real problem is that you have no ramp! You have like 2 ramp cards in there! No bueno. Must have much, much more. Zedruu costs 1WUR. Donating a single thing costs WUR. That's 1WWUURR to cast Zedruu the first time and donate something. 7 mana! And super color-intensive. Run much much more ramp. I run 10 ramp cards not counting Ral Zarek's untap land ability.
Also Djinn of Deceits and Daring Thief help with donating. Also Political Trickery and other such things.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
Vedalken Plotter, sure no one is going to bother with a land usually, though the creature body isn't going to get much for a trade, is likely to die by just looking at it.
Spawnbroker, especially in this list, is the worse of the bunch. As you put it, it's good for switching for a Oracle of Mul Daya... he has honestly 1 viable creature to do that swap, and he can't even do it (Norin the Wary is really the only one I'd consider) Azor's Elocutors might be the next viable, if you have Homeward Path on the board.
As for your own suggestions, Daring Thief, how do you get it to untap? there isn't anything to tap it down first, and it will never survive combat. Djinn of Infinite Deceits is also a poor choice. At best, he would need a blink deck to adequately use it, I run it in Roon of the Hidden Realm to a large success. Other than the pure chaos of swapping players creatures around, he isn't going to get a large bit of value out of it.
I'm working on updating my Zedruu deck right now ... here's the current list
A nice little thing with Daring Thief is Aura of Dominion ... I am now looking for one. :-P
Modern :
- Playing : Burn | Living End | Bant Eldrazi
- In Queue : ???
- Building : Death's Shadow |
- Sidelined : RUG Scapeshift | Lantern Control | GR Tron | Ad Nauseam | UWR Control | Dredge | Eldrazi Tron | UB Whir Tezzerator
EDH : Active Decks
BUGrimgrin Tribal ZombiesBU | WGRUril, the MiststalkerWGR | XKozilek, Butcher of TruthX
My Trade List