Am I the only one who isn't a huge fan of Sage of Hours and Necrotic Ooze? They really don't seem to synergies well with the rest of the deck, aside from the combo?
Necrotic ooze has it's uses, sage baits removal like no other, its like extra turns is the most offensive thing you can do in edh? But yea, if you aren't feeling them, drop em, there's tons of good options out there, just keep your average cmc low with highly efficient creatures.
I have too many six drops, which I need to work on. I was just asking with those two since I have just never been happy to see them. I was wondering if that is due to me playing the deck wrong (possible since I have played it maybe 10 times), or if others had the same issue? Without Unspeakable Symbol, I really don't know how to get 5 counters on the Sage of Hours
With the Necrotic Ooze, what activated abilities can we really get (aside from Kiki, Grimgrin and Sage)? Grim-Grin has been a boss though.
Also in my deck I also run Glen Elendra Archmage which is not an ability they want to see again if they managed to kill it.
And none of this includes your opponents stuff. I've done terrible things using things in opponents' yards like Goblin Welder, Adarkar Valkyrie, Chainer, Dementia Master, etc. You can't predict that but it doesn't mean it won't come up. And 4 mana creatures are very tutorable for us so when these situations do come we can go get our Ooze to abuse them.
I guess the thing I like about it is that we actually don't have a lot of recursion. Ooze gives us a strange and unexpected form of recursion that actually fits marchesa pretty well. I'm sure some day it'll get cut since its not core to the deck but it is handy.
Has anyone tried out the new Awaken cards yet? I know they're generally pretty bad, but I was just updating my deck and decided to slot in Scatter to the Winds in place of plain old Counterspell. I don't play the deck too much, but I do remember several games where I ran out of fuel late-game unless I draw a good mass draw card. One mana more for the base spell, but I have the option of a low-risk 3/3 creature as well.
Bonus points if your awakened land is something with a good sac effet.. say, Strip Mine, a fetch land, or even a good ETB like Bojuka Bog!
Also, would you guys recommend Dimir Machinations or Clutch of the Undercity against each other? Thinking I'd like to grab a 3 CC transmute to fetch Drana, Unspeakable Symbol, and/or Necropotence as they're all pretty key cards.
Has anyone tried out the new Awaken cards yet? I know they're generally pretty bad, but I was just updating my deck and decided to slot in Scatter to the Winds in place of plain old Counterspell. I don't play the deck too much, but I do remember several games where I ran out of fuel late-game unless I draw a good mass draw card. One mana more for the base spell, but I have the option of a low-risk 3/3 creature as well.
Bonus points if your awakened land is something with a good sac effet.. say, Strip Mine, a fetch land, or even a good ETB like Bojuka Bog!
Also, would you guys recommend Dimir Machinations or Clutch of the Undercity against each other? Thinking I'd like to grab a 3 CC transmute to fetch Drana, Unspeakable Symbol, and/or Necropotence as they're all pretty key cards.
Yea I really wish the awaken cards had been better. Marchesa could definitely abuse the ability. As it is none of them really piqued my interest. I really have no desire for a straight up counterspell in the deck. Keep in mind though, that awaken cost is pretty expensive. I really can't imagine a situation where I'm holding up 6 mana for a counterspell and if I was I'd definitely rather be playing Spelljack or Gather Specimens. But again, no real desire at all to play any of them.
Clutch 150%. Clutch is a relevant card to this deck, its not just a tutor. It can absolutely be played in a pinch and is one of our only answers to something like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void. And in addition it fetches anything in our 4 cmc toolbox (which is quite extensive) or Sneak Attack. It's a great card.
Dimir Machinations is a crappy card. There's almost zero incentive to play it as written in commander, especially in this deck. If it was an instant it would at least counter Mystical Tutor and that cycle but as a sorcery it's junk. Which means its just a 3 mana tutor with a restriction. Just play Demonic Tutor instead. Or Vampiric Tutor. Or Diabolic Intent. Or really anything from here in the CMC 1-3 range.
Or how about a 3rd suggestion? You seem to want both transmute 3 card and a counterspell. Why not just play Perplex?
I of course somehow failed to recognize Clutch was a 4 CMC card. Whoops! Might look into Diabolic Intent. I already have Demonic Tutor and can't afford the more expensive stuff. I'll definately look into Perplex: the reason I run Counterspell is specifically for anti-graveyard hate, or mass exile. I'd rather not give them an option if taking it would knock me out of the game.
I really oughta find a slot for Gather Specimens though. That card is so awesome.
Honestly, my initial impression is no. Not because the card is bad, simply because its not good enough to deal with the gargantuan hassle that is "graveyard order matters". It also seems like a pain to abuse, I'm sure you can its just going to be tough to keep track of what he is with things flying in and out of your yard. And as far as I can tell its not totally a clone, it still remains a 0/1, right?
And calling it a pseudo-sneak attack is a huge stretch. It will trigger the ETB of the top card of your yard only and only when it first comes in. When you use its ability that will not trigger ETBs, it simply changes its text.
I think I'd rather just go with a more normal clone that we aren't running like Phantasmal Image. Or more predictable recursion and 'yard tricks like Phyrexian Delver or Body Double.
Well, coping with the Gargantuan Hassle is a bit of a stretch as well, it's not too hard to work out what he is, you just look at the top card of your graveyard. He works pretty well when they manage to get rid of a Utility card like Spellskite or Glen Elendra Archmage, you can use some pretty weird combat tricks with him such as sacrificing a blocked creature whilst in combat to change him into something a bit more threatening.
When I say pseudo-sneak attack, it does make a bit of sense. What I mean by this, is that whilst he is in play, you can pay 2 to discard a card just like you normally would using Sneak Attack, but by no means am I suggesting he is a replacement or even comparable, hence pseudo -- literally meaning non-genuine.
The reason I dislike Phantasmal Mage over this, is that Phantasmal Mage must be sacrificed to even a Giant Growth, or merely an ability from an Alchemist's Vial. This guy can change into a creature you have with a +1/+1 counter on it, then during your end step you'll get that creature back. I'm gonna experiment with him, I'll have to let you know how it goes I'm not going to sacrifice a potentially decent card at the small cost of a 'graveyard order matters', it's manageable in my opinion.
Scatter to the winds is a decent card, but awaken cards are really not good enough for the deck, but if they print even one decent card, Halimar Tidecaller could go from interesting to playable.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Here's to hoping that it becomes a staple like prowess, it seems rly effective for draft so I wouldn't rule out that possibility. I would love to run a small package like that.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, why didn't they just make some creatures etb and awaken stuff? It seems like a pretty good design space instead of having token makers.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Not super exciting, but I did just finally get to play a game and play Drana. T1 swamp, go. T2 mountain, crypt, Falkenrath Aristocrat, bash. T3 rip Drana, fetch into Blood Crypt, Drana. Proceed to wreck face. It was pretty great to be able to swing w/o dethrone and still get counters. And they add up _fast_. If you manage to swing w/ dethrone + Drana then that's 2/turn. Player had to Damnation just to get all the counters off my team (I had Aristocrat up to 6 plus 3-4 on Drana and Marchesa; that's 12-14 points of damage). Didn't matter at all that I was dealing so much damage that I was 20 points ahead in life when Drana still put counters on the team
Anybody still running Zealous Conscripts? Its potential for stealing things is much less than, say, Puppeteer Clique, but it can be nice to have the emergency win button with Kiki-Jiki.
Nah not running Zealous, sure it's a nice wombo combo with Kiki-Jiki, but I generally don't use those sorts of wincons.
A quick wincon I've found is to Buried Alive targetting Sage of Hours, Grimgrin and Kiki-Jiki, then putting Necrotic Ooze into play, hopefully with a glen elendra archmage in play to counter any spells, and then go infinite from there.
Would love to see some peoples current deck lists. Think mine needs some tweaking, at least my high CMC spells. Thanks
I have a french duel-commander list here if you're interested. Its drastically different from the multiplayer lists but its full of cheaper costs if you need idea's.
Nah not running Zealous, sure it's a nice wombo combo with Kiki-Jiki, but I generally don't use those sorts of wincons.
A quick wincon I've found is to Buried Alive targetting Sage of Hours, Grimgrin and Kiki-Jiki, then putting Necrotic Ooze into play, hopefully with a glen elendra archmage in play to counter any spells, and then go infinite from there.
Huh? This one infinite combo is bad to do but this other one isn't?
I am now running Zealous/Kiki, but that's because my playgroup lately has been playing way too many 6+ player games and when you start at midnight then they end at like 3:00 AM and I want a way to immediately end a game at a reasonable hour. When we fall back out of that habit I'll probably cut the combo again.
Zealous is good outside of the combo, you can basically steal a creature every turn with Marxhesa and a sac outlet.
Sort of. You steal them during the end step and lose them during cleanup. I've never been a big fan of Zealous Conscripts personally although you could definitely do worse. He's isn't particularly tutorable in this deck though since his CMC is >4 and his power is >2, an important characteristic of a combo piece. Necrotic Ooze is combo-rrific enough for me without needing more kiki combos or supporting pieces. We also have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables and Puppeteer clique (or Glen Elendra Archmage if you run her) and basically any repeatable sac effect (Phyrexian Altar obviously being the most powerful). And besides that we have such strong synergy you often don't need a true combo to just put the game away seemingly out of nowhere.
Zealous is good outside of the combo, you can basically steal a creature every turn with Marxhesa and a sac outlet.
Sort of. You steal them during the end step and lose them during up. I've never been a big fan of Zealous Conscripts personally although you could definitely do worse. He's isn't particularly tutorable in this deck though since his CMC is >4 and his power is >2, an important characteristic of a combo piece. Necrotic Ooze is combo-rrific enough for me without needing more kiki combos or supporting pieces. We also have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables and Puppeteer clique (or Glen Elendra Archmage if you run her) and basically any repeatable sac effect (Phyrexian Altar obviously being the most powerful). And besides that we have such strong synergy you often don't need a true combo to just put the game away seemingly out of nowhere.
You lose them during the clean up? Its no different from Puppeteer clique, just get a dethrone counter on em and sac em before the end step .
Zealous is good outside of the combo, you can basically steal a creature every turn with Marxhesa and a sac outlet.
Sort of. You steal them during the end step and lose them during up. I've never been a big fan of Zealous Conscripts personally although you could definitely do worse. He's isn't particularly tutorable in this deck though since his CMC is >4 and his power is >2, an important characteristic of a combo piece. Necrotic Ooze is combo-rrific enough for me without needing more kiki combos or supporting pieces. We also have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables and Puppeteer clique (or Glen Elendra Archmage if you run her) and basically any repeatable sac effect (Phyrexian Altar obviously being the most powerful). And besides that we have such strong synergy you often don't need a true combo to just put the game away seemingly out of nowhere.
You lose them during the clean up? Its no different from Puppeteer clique, just get a dethrone counter on em and sac em before the end step .
If you recur Conscripts with Marchesa, it returns at the beginning of the end step and you can only steal something until the cleanup step. You need Unspeakable Symbol and a sac outlet to put a counter on it and steal it permanently, or you need a Mikaeus recursion of Conscripts to get to attack with the creature you steal to put a counter on it. Conscripts via Marchesa and a sac outlet is a targeted kill spell each turn rather than a theft each turn. Clique will steal something and let you keep it for another full turn of yours, so the you get a chance to use it and possibly keep it via Marchesa.
I have too many six drops, which I need to work on. I was just asking with those two since I have just never been happy to see them. I was wondering if that is due to me playing the deck wrong (possible since I have played it maybe 10 times), or if others had the same issue? Without Unspeakable Symbol, I really don't know how to get 5 counters on the Sage of Hours
With the Necrotic Ooze, what activated abilities can we really get (aside from Kiki, Grimgrin and Sage)? Grim-Grin has been a boss though.
Utility they really don't wan to see again if they've managed to get rid of it - Spellskite, Feldon of the Third Path
Tutor - Fleshwrither
Recursion - Xiahou-Dun, the One-Eyed
Ramp - Burnished Hart
LD - Fulminator Mage
Evasion - Thassa, God of the Sea (do we still run her?)
Surprise extra turns - Sage of Hours
And of course, the wincon - Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Also in my deck I also run Glen Elendra Archmage which is not an ability they want to see again if they managed to kill it.
And none of this includes your opponents stuff. I've done terrible things using things in opponents' yards like Goblin Welder, Adarkar Valkyrie, Chainer, Dementia Master, etc. You can't predict that but it doesn't mean it won't come up. And 4 mana creatures are very tutorable for us so when these situations do come we can go get our Ooze to abuse them.
I guess the thing I like about it is that we actually don't have a lot of recursion. Ooze gives us a strange and unexpected form of recursion that actually fits marchesa pretty well. I'm sure some day it'll get cut since its not core to the deck but it is handy.
Bonus points if your awakened land is something with a good sac effet.. say, Strip Mine, a fetch land, or even a good ETB like Bojuka Bog!
Also, would you guys recommend Dimir Machinations or Clutch of the Undercity against each other? Thinking I'd like to grab a 3 CC transmute to fetch Drana, Unspeakable Symbol, and/or Necropotence as they're all pretty key cards.
RBGKresh, The BloodbraidedRBG
GBWKarador Spirit TribalGBW
UUUTaniwha SillinessUUU
MTGO Username: Aukan
Yea I really wish the awaken cards had been better. Marchesa could definitely abuse the ability. As it is none of them really piqued my interest. I really have no desire for a straight up counterspell in the deck. Keep in mind though, that awaken cost is pretty expensive. I really can't imagine a situation where I'm holding up 6 mana for a counterspell and if I was I'd definitely rather be playing Spelljack or Gather Specimens. But again, no real desire at all to play any of them.
Clutch 150%. Clutch is a relevant card to this deck, its not just a tutor. It can absolutely be played in a pinch and is one of our only answers to something like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void. And in addition it fetches anything in our 4 cmc toolbox (which is quite extensive) or Sneak Attack. It's a great card.
Dimir Machinations is a crappy card. There's almost zero incentive to play it as written in commander, especially in this deck. If it was an instant it would at least counter Mystical Tutor and that cycle but as a sorcery it's junk. Which means its just a 3 mana tutor with a restriction. Just play Demonic Tutor instead. Or Vampiric Tutor. Or Diabolic Intent. Or really anything from here in the CMC 1-3 range.
Or how about a 3rd suggestion? You seem to want both transmute 3 card and a counterspell. Why not just play Perplex?
I really oughta find a slot for Gather Specimens though. That card is so awesome.
RBGKresh, The BloodbraidedRBG
GBWKarador Spirit TribalGBW
UUUTaniwha SillinessUUU
MTGO Username: Aukan
Acts as a pseudo-sneak attack if you pay 2, it works with ETB effects if you sac it, it's a pretty interesting hidden gem.
And calling it a pseudo-sneak attack is a huge stretch. It will trigger the ETB of the top card of your yard only and only when it first comes in. When you use its ability that will not trigger ETBs, it simply changes its text.
I think I'd rather just go with a more normal clone that we aren't running like Phantasmal Image. Or more predictable recursion and 'yard tricks like Phyrexian Delver or Body Double.
When I say pseudo-sneak attack, it does make a bit of sense. What I mean by this, is that whilst he is in play, you can pay 2 to discard a card just like you normally would using Sneak Attack, but by no means am I suggesting he is a replacement or even comparable, hence pseudo -- literally meaning non-genuine.
The reason I dislike Phantasmal Mage over this, is that Phantasmal Mage must be sacrificed to even a Giant Growth, or merely an ability from an Alchemist's Vial. This guy can change into a creature you have with a +1/+1 counter on it, then during your end step you'll get that creature back. I'm gonna experiment with him, I'll have to let you know how it goes I'm not going to sacrifice a potentially decent card at the small cost of a 'graveyard order matters', it's manageable in my opinion.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Like:
Awaken Edict 1B
Instant <<<Has to be instant or backbreaking
Each player sacrifices a creature.
Awaken 2 3B
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
If not, is there somewhere I can find an updated version of the decklist?
Feel free to post your deck lists though to rile some discussion.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Nah not running Zealous, sure it's a nice wombo combo with Kiki-Jiki, but I generally don't use those sorts of wincons.
A quick wincon I've found is to Buried Alive targetting Sage of Hours, Grimgrin and Kiki-Jiki, then putting Necrotic Ooze into play, hopefully with a glen elendra archmage in play to counter any spells, and then go infinite from there.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Huh? This one infinite combo is bad to do but this other one isn't?
I am now running Zealous/Kiki, but that's because my playgroup lately has been playing way too many 6+ player games and when you start at midnight then they end at like 3:00 AM and I want a way to immediately end a game at a reasonable hour. When we fall back out of that habit I'll probably cut the combo again.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Sort of. You steal them during the end step and lose them during cleanup. I've never been a big fan of Zealous Conscripts personally although you could definitely do worse. He's isn't particularly tutorable in this deck though since his CMC is >4 and his power is >2, an important characteristic of a combo piece. Necrotic Ooze is combo-rrific enough for me without needing more kiki combos or supporting pieces. We also have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables and Puppeteer clique (or Glen Elendra Archmage if you run her) and basically any repeatable sac effect (Phyrexian Altar obviously being the most powerful). And besides that we have such strong synergy you often don't need a true combo to just put the game away seemingly out of nowhere.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
If you recur Conscripts with Marchesa, it returns at the beginning of the end step and you can only steal something until the cleanup step. You need Unspeakable Symbol and a sac outlet to put a counter on it and steal it permanently, or you need a Mikaeus recursion of Conscripts to get to attack with the creature you steal to put a counter on it. Conscripts via Marchesa and a sac outlet is a targeted kill spell each turn rather than a theft each turn. Clique will steal something and let you keep it for another full turn of yours, so the you get a chance to use it and possibly keep it via Marchesa.