So I found out that Amok exists today. It will likely not make it into my deck because of the random discard effect, but I felt it was worth talking about
That is... special. Makes me think of Loki in the Avengers: "How desperate are you, that you call on such lost creatures to defend you?"
Even if it was a "free" effect (as in just discard a card at random, no additional mana cost) I think that's too much. I'd run the cheap graft guys over that. Grixis may be a little more strapped on sources of +1/+1 counters than green and white but I don't think shredding your hand for a couple counters is a good trade.
I'd rather have Summoner's Egg, I think, because you have more control over whether you hit a creature or not.
I disagree actually. Nukleik is right, Clone Shell provides card advantage. I'm much more interested in that than the actual effect.
And unless my hand is stuffed, I'm not sure if my hand is a better place to find creatures than the top of my library. My deck is pretty close to 50% creatures so clone shell will probably hit. My hand usually isn't since I play creatures out of my hand pretty quickly. The only time there'd be a lot of creatures in my hand is if I have a good card draw engine going and in that case I'm probably going for the win, Summoner's Egg is pretty meh and possibly win-more at that point.
If I was going to play one of these two, it would definitely be Clone Shell. I don't think there's anything in particular I want to cut for it though off the top of my head. Maybe I'll think about it if one of the recent changes I made with BFZ doesn't pan out.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I tried her for a while. Not bad with the human/wizard theme (if you have one), and gives evasion. I think it depends on your curve. I found myself having too many expensive cards in hand. You really want to cast creatures turns 1-3 in my opinion so you get an immediate boost from casting Marchesa.
I'd definitely consider putting her back in my deck, but I would have to take out another expensive threat. Hard to compare her to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Bearer of the Heavens, in my opinion.
She can be a win-con... but she also requires you to have a board presence to be effective. Sometimes she is win-more. Sometimes she does nothing. I was usually unhappy to see her in my hand. Except late in the game when she wins it for you.
I cut her because of numbers... There are better things to do for 6.
Vela is a decent wincon, but we don't really lack those. Besides having atrocious art, Dong Zhou, the Tyrant is pretty much way worse then flayer. It could be funny to kill someone off of their own swollen monster, but i'll take utility over a rare chance to kill someone like that.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Vela the Night-Clad? Meh. Evasion is nice but it may not be necessary and it may not even work (depending on what's out there). And that trigger seems like it would be scary but really isn't. It's such a slow drain that you have to have a lot of creatures for it to add up which makes it kind of win-more. Basically like dunharrow said, it feels like there's better things to do with 6 mana.
Tried out Dark COnfidant and took him out of my list; deck was killing itself too much already with its manabase hahaha =)) I agree that the deck's bombs should come at around 6cc. I've been thinking of taking out Harvester of Souls as well since it really doesn't do much. Is it really okay keeping Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in the deck even if you don't have combo cards with it? (e.g. Triskelion, persist dorks)
His synergy with other deck staples is enough. Well his interaction with Marchesa is enough. I've never run combo cards with him and he's as feared as if he was.
Very yes. He's literally just commander #2. He loves all the same things marchesa does. Also unlike marchesa he makes your non-humans with ETBs into instants which is definitely tech.
And we do have a persist dork, Puppeteer Clique. This is also one of the reasons I swapped in Glen Elendra, Archmage in my own list. In addition to being an extremely respectable creature by herself, she combos off mikaeus if the situation happens to come up. Most of the mikaeus combos are far too johnny for us, leave that for the green and black decks running Tooth and Nail. Also our persist dorks have the benefit of also combo'ing off Sage of Fables, a creature we have out far more often since it is a frequent tutor target.
Puppeteer Clique is always a powerful card in any deck. In Marchesa it's really good because you have the ability to permanently keep the reanimated creature around.
Since I just put the deck together, I am using some cards that I had lying around from two other decks I had deconstructed. What are is the take on these cards:
Avalanche Riders, the echo is pretty bad, but he can wreck a bunch of lands if we so need it, especially since he has haste to quickly get a dethrone counter. Coffin Queen, which can quickly turn into a reanimation machine for Marchesa (reanimate it, get a counter on it, and then let it die, and then wash rinse and repeat) Kokusho, the Evening Star, which seems really broken if you can recur it a few times, as abusing his graveyard trigger is brutal. Keiga, the Tide Star and Wurmcoil Engine are also bonkers if you can abuse their graveyard triggers a few times. Grave Titan can very quickly generate a huge army between entering and reentering the field, all of which can get dethrone counters and get large. Liliana, Heretical Healer doesn't seem that hard to flip and her abilities are all relevant to this deck.
Avalanche Riders - I think there are slightly mixed feelings here, but many prefer Fulminator Mage because it's easier to cast and you have more control over it. I like Riders because it has haste and can hit basics.
Coffin Queen - interesting, but probably not what you want in this deck. It's usually pretty aggressive, and a creature w/ a tap ability isn't. I've been thinking about a Marchesa "do over" deck and this would be a neat choice, especially if you go heavy on the stealing plan.
Cocopuffs et al - 4 six drops is a bit much. I run Kokusho and am happy with it. The life gain can be important and is of course great w/ a necropotence (or Erebos/Greed). I've never tried the others. They don't really seem better than Coco though. Grave Daddy is probably the next best, especially if you've got a haste enabler on board. Swinging w/ a 7/7, 2 3/3's, and getting a pair of 2/2's out of the deal seems good.
Liliana - can't say I've ever really wanted those abilities. The +2 isn't really an angle the deck tends to attack and realistically you're going to want to be at 4+ loyalty before using the minus. The limit break seems highly unlikely to reach, but is certainly potent.
All that said, I think there are a great many ways to build Marchesa and still have a very fun deck and any of these cards are reasonable inclusions.
I think Puppeteer Clique is amazing but may fall into the category of "meta dependent". Some metas may not offer creatures that can merit the 5 cmc or it's such a fast paced meta that dropping something like Clique will not provide enough value. There's also the fact that without a sac outlet, it doesn't perform nearly as well and you can't really use it instant speed to keep a creature without Unspeakable Symbol or something similar. I have also seen an increase in Homeward Path and MC effects since tuck ban. All that being said, even against decks without the fattest creatures, if the game is slow enough Clique can alone make sure you fill your board. I know I have won with a Clique assembled army led by matron
Am I the only one who isn't a huge fan of Sage of Hours and Necrotic Ooze? They really don't seem to synergies well with the rest of the deck, aside from the combo?
Am I the only one who isn't a huge fan of Sage of Hours and Necrotic Ooze? They really don't seem to synergies well with the rest of the deck, aside from the combo?
Necrotic ooze has it's uses, sage baits removal like no other, its like extra turns is the most offensive thing you can do in edh? But yea, if you aren't feeling them, drop em, there's tons of good options out there, just keep your average cmc low with highly efficient creatures.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Am I the only one who isn't a huge fan of Sage of Hours and Necrotic Ooze? They really don't seem to synergies well with the rest of the deck, aside from the combo?
Sage of Hours barely spent any time in my own build. He always just kind of seemed like a placeholder. We like cheap wizards, he baits removal and has a strong ability on the off chance he is left ignored for long enough for the stars to align. Rune mentioned a few posts ago that he was on the chopping block already so I expect something in BFZ is replacing him.
Necrotic Ooze is different. Personally I felt the same way you did at first. I cut ooze some time ago to try out other things because he seemed purposeless. The whole kiki combo seemed way too johnny to ever be useful. But the more I've played this deck the more I realized its strength is really just in having the answer to everything. What makes this deck so cool is that every creature in it can win the game given the right circumstances. So calling the ooze a wincon is just redundant, it just happens that he can do it without involving marchesa at all. However his main use is his ability to reuse any of the 14 or so activated abilities we have (not to mention any your opponents might happen to have) without any warning. It's a whole toolkit on a single tutorable stick. He's a lot of utility so he actually recently found his way back in to my build.
That being said, he doesn't totally fit with the marchesa way. I mean our whole thing is keeping our guys out of our graveyard after all. So yea, he's borderline but he's definitely better than I originally gave him credit for. Although I also wasn't entirely surprised to see him on Rune's potential chopping block for BFZ stuff either.
Does anyone have a decently updated decklist of this deck?
I am considering running Smothering Abomination, as well as Volrath's Shapeshifter for it's weird shapeshifter effect which causes all kinds of greatness with the likes of Sacrificing big creatures.
Also, I am having trouble against Enchantment Hate on my Unspeakable Symbol, when people see it, they destroy it ASAP. How do I prevent this effectively? (If only it were a creature!)
Essentially just need some suggestions for additions and removals from the decklist as a result of BFZ.
Cheers.
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That is... special. Makes me think of Loki in the Avengers: "How desperate are you, that you call on such lost creatures to defend you?"
Even if it was a "free" effect (as in just discard a card at random, no additional mana cost) I think that's too much. I'd run the cheap graft guys over that. Grixis may be a little more strapped on sources of +1/+1 counters than green and white but I don't think shredding your hand for a couple counters is a good trade.
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Seems like good card advantage and possibility to dig through deck
I disagree actually. Nukleik is right, Clone Shell provides card advantage. I'm much more interested in that than the actual effect.
And unless my hand is stuffed, I'm not sure if my hand is a better place to find creatures than the top of my library. My deck is pretty close to 50% creatures so clone shell will probably hit. My hand usually isn't since I play creatures out of my hand pretty quickly. The only time there'd be a lot of creatures in my hand is if I have a good card draw engine going and in that case I'm probably going for the win, Summoner's Egg is pretty meh and possibly win-more at that point.
If I was going to play one of these two, it would definitely be Clone Shell. I don't think there's anything in particular I want to cut for it though off the top of my head. Maybe I'll think about it if one of the recent changes I made with BFZ doesn't pan out.
I am going to try out some of the other cards in here when I can. Dark Confidant is very good in this deck, so he is definitely worth a shot.
Considering the the dethrone mechanic, can I ask why you are running the tainted lands as opposed to the pain lands (Sulfurous Springs, Underground River, Shivan Reef) plus City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and perhaps Tarnished Citadel?
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
I tried her for a while. Not bad with the human/wizard theme (if you have one), and gives evasion. I think it depends on your curve. I found myself having too many expensive cards in hand. You really want to cast creatures turns 1-3 in my opinion so you get an immediate boost from casting Marchesa.
I'd definitely consider putting her back in my deck, but I would have to take out another expensive threat. Hard to compare her to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Bearer of the Heavens, in my opinion.
She can be a win-con... but she also requires you to have a board presence to be effective. Sometimes she is win-more. Sometimes she does nothing. I was usually unhappy to see her in my hand. Except late in the game when she wins it for you.
I cut her because of numbers... There are better things to do for 6.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
My experience with this deck tells me that my 6+ drops need to be devastating. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - devastating. Flayer of the Hatebound - devastating. Rune-Scarred Demon - not quite the same level but still pretty damn devastating. Jokulhaups/Bearer of the Heavens/Obliterate - game over.
Vela the Night-Clad? Meh. Evasion is nice but it may not be necessary and it may not even work (depending on what's out there). And that trigger seems like it would be scary but really isn't. It's such a slow drain that you have to have a lot of creatures for it to add up which makes it kind of win-more. Basically like dunharrow said, it feels like there's better things to do with 6 mana.
Dong Zhou, the Tyrant really doesn't interest me at all. He just seems weird. I'd play Purphoros, God of the Forge way before I played him and I'm not playing him either.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
And we do have a persist dork, Puppeteer Clique. This is also one of the reasons I swapped in Glen Elendra, Archmage in my own list. In addition to being an extremely respectable creature by herself, she combos off mikaeus if the situation happens to come up. Most of the mikaeus combos are far too johnny for us, leave that for the green and black decks running Tooth and Nail. Also our persist dorks have the benefit of also combo'ing off Sage of Fables, a creature we have out far more often since it is a frequent tutor target.
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Avalanche Riders, the echo is pretty bad, but he can wreck a bunch of lands if we so need it, especially since he has haste to quickly get a dethrone counter.
Coffin Queen, which can quickly turn into a reanimation machine for Marchesa (reanimate it, get a counter on it, and then let it die, and then wash rinse and repeat)
Kokusho, the Evening Star, which seems really broken if you can recur it a few times, as abusing his graveyard trigger is brutal.
Keiga, the Tide Star and Wurmcoil Engine are also bonkers if you can abuse their graveyard triggers a few times.
Grave Titan can very quickly generate a huge army between entering and reentering the field, all of which can get dethrone counters and get large.
Liliana, Heretical Healer doesn't seem that hard to flip and her abilities are all relevant to this deck.
Avalanche Riders - I think there are slightly mixed feelings here, but many prefer Fulminator Mage because it's easier to cast and you have more control over it. I like Riders because it has haste and can hit basics.
Coffin Queen - interesting, but probably not what you want in this deck. It's usually pretty aggressive, and a creature w/ a tap ability isn't. I've been thinking about a Marchesa "do over" deck and this would be a neat choice, especially if you go heavy on the stealing plan.
Cocopuffs et al - 4 six drops is a bit much. I run Kokusho and am happy with it. The life gain can be important and is of course great w/ a necropotence (or Erebos/Greed). I've never tried the others. They don't really seem better than Coco though. Grave Daddy is probably the next best, especially if you've got a haste enabler on board. Swinging w/ a 7/7, 2 3/3's, and getting a pair of 2/2's out of the deal seems good.
Liliana - can't say I've ever really wanted those abilities. The +2 isn't really an angle the deck tends to attack and realistically you're going to want to be at 4+ loyalty before using the minus. The limit break seems highly unlikely to reach, but is certainly potent.
All that said, I think there are a great many ways to build Marchesa and still have a very fun deck and any of these cards are reasonable inclusions.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Necrotic ooze has it's uses, sage baits removal like no other, its like extra turns is the most offensive thing you can do in edh? But yea, if you aren't feeling them, drop em, there's tons of good options out there, just keep your average cmc low with highly efficient creatures.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Sage of Hours barely spent any time in my own build. He always just kind of seemed like a placeholder. We like cheap wizards, he baits removal and has a strong ability on the off chance he is left ignored for long enough for the stars to align. Rune mentioned a few posts ago that he was on the chopping block already so I expect something in BFZ is replacing him.
Necrotic Ooze is different. Personally I felt the same way you did at first. I cut ooze some time ago to try out other things because he seemed purposeless. The whole kiki combo seemed way too johnny to ever be useful. But the more I've played this deck the more I realized its strength is really just in having the answer to everything. What makes this deck so cool is that every creature in it can win the game given the right circumstances. So calling the ooze a wincon is just redundant, it just happens that he can do it without involving marchesa at all. However his main use is his ability to reuse any of the 14 or so activated abilities we have (not to mention any your opponents might happen to have) without any warning. It's a whole toolkit on a single tutorable stick. He's a lot of utility so he actually recently found his way back in to my build.
That being said, he doesn't totally fit with the marchesa way. I mean our whole thing is keeping our guys out of our graveyard after all. So yea, he's borderline but he's definitely better than I originally gave him credit for. Although I also wasn't entirely surprised to see him on Rune's potential chopping block for BFZ stuff either.
Does anyone have a decently updated decklist of this deck?
I am considering running Smothering Abomination, as well as Volrath's Shapeshifter for it's weird shapeshifter effect which causes all kinds of greatness with the likes of Sacrificing big creatures.
Also, I am having trouble against Enchantment Hate on my Unspeakable Symbol, when people see it, they destroy it ASAP. How do I prevent this effectively? (If only it were a creature!)
Essentially just need some suggestions for additions and removals from the decklist as a result of BFZ.
Cheers.