Amazing in 1v1, lackluster in multiplayer. Definitely auto include in french.
I have it in my list atm, and I think it is ok. Not really bad, but not amazing either. Maybe I will try out Liliana's Specter instead.
I think about cutting Sage of Hours, as I never got an extra turn of it yet and neither could I do the Necrotic Ooze combo. I haven't played the deck that much yet, so far Sage always felt like a vanilla creature. Maybe I cut Ooze too? :/
I did. I cut ooze for Azami, Lady of Scrolls to get some more card draw. She's been an absolute house. 3 blue can make her tough to play sometimes without Sneak Attack but she always cantrips and can often net me whole hands of cards very quickly. I've got no problem with ooze, it is an absolute beast in my Lazav, Dimir Mastermind deck for instance, it just doesn't really fit my plan in Marchesa. I don't really fill graveyards with creatures (mine or others), I prefer to steal/clone other people's good things and keep my own creatures alive. Plus most of my guys have triggered abilities not activated abilities.
Idk when it came down it I realized after weeks of playing regularly I had never once sought out the ooze and the one or two times I actually played him it was just as a vanilla 3/3 to get a dude out on the board. That was enough to make me cut him.
As for Sage of Hours, I've never been a fan of that card. I didn't actually cut him so much as never put him in. Some suggestions to put in his place: Necropotence (obviously awesome), Viscera Seer (was skeptical at first but she's been an absolute house, I have never once been sad to see her and use her all the time now), and Demonic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor (obviously awesome).
I can def attribute some wins to just paying 15 life to extend into another turn for combat. I have never set up the combo but still the Sage does some work. Also had a game where I was gaining 15+ off swings cause of Whip of Erebos, so it became an infinite turn thing that way.
I believe you but is that enough? Just because there are some tricky situations where he can be a threat doesn't necessarily mean he's good enough to hold the spot over something else. Sage may occasionally draw me wins but the tutors can go get me sneak attack, or card draw or Jokulhaups, literally whatever I need to win no matter what situation.
Necropotence is a card quality machine, just fill my hand back up every turn. Sneak attack is awesome but it is super easy to stall out with it as it tends to wipe out your hand very quickly. I am constantly looking for more cards with this deck.
Viscera Seer is a less obvious but I can tell you from using her she is awesome. She is a 1/1 wizard for 1 less than sage of hours so she is better for use as a vanilla (and non-human so mikaeus loves her). In addition while there is occasional use of the sage's ability for solid gain there is continuous and constant use of her ability. You are constantly improving your draws with her out there and can even do some small tutoring if you need to dig for a specific card and have a lot of guys or a Sage of Fables (sac'ing herself to scry at the end of every turn with sage of fables out there until the card you want is on top is a hilariously awesome power play). I've heard it said that scry 1 is sort of equivalent to drawing 0.5 cards. This makes it the closest we can get to sac a creature for a card and its on a cheap wizard to boot.
Just because sage can occasionally net me an explosive win doesn't necessarily he mean I should be running him over these guys. When in this deck the three things I'm always needing are cards, sac effects and fast counter abilities (i.e. anything that gives me counters before the following turn: haste, Unspeakable Symbol, Mikaeus, Sage of Fables, etc.). I'd much rather have something that gives me one of those three than something is a vanilla 1/1 with an outside chance of winning me the game once in a while if the stars align.
Viscera Seer is too redundant for me. Top decking him over sage is worse because I already have a reliable sac outlet and the scry wont dig me out of the position I'm in. I also find creatures with 1 power a bit risky, and he doesn't have a way to protect him like the other creature sac outlets do. Dropped t2 I'm probably looking at taking an extra turn without any added effects or biting a removal spell when he gets too close-which makes holding the board late game easier because it's that removal spell that would be saved to remove Marchesa in reponse to a board wipe, which seems to be an established necessity for players who know how to play against Marchesa. I started playing this against friends we let proxy so I've had access to Imperial Recruiter and I have tutored Sage of Hours more than once, and each time that extra turn was what sealed the win. I find the ability too useful to ever slot out. I'm normally a combo player so I'm used to a "dead slot" anyways, and I think any properly made deck can allot one if it's impactful enough with the cards it needs to line up with. I think the games he's done work outweighs games he's been dead. I think the biggest thing is: Yes, he is overall not as impactful as other cards, but he is so explosive with certain ones that he merits a slot. As soon as Unspeakable Symbol hits the board he's pretty much a win con. However, if you're still reading after this wall of text, he would be on the chopping board if I ever got my hands on an Obliterator and would def be sealed in if I actually owned an Imperial Recruiter
Hm I guess that's fair. I'll have to think about it some more.
And I will admit this, once you do manage to win with infinite turns he gets much much more useful in your playgroup. In most casual groups I've seen no one ever forgets the infinite combos, especially the infinite turn ones. I have a karn deck and I've had people use their only artifact removal spell on my basically useless Codex Shredder over my actually useful mana rocks just because I happened to go infinite with it once. I think my group would not use removal on Sage of Hours to start but if I did pull off an infinite turn combo like you mentioned then he would be a removal vacuum after that. Once you do it once it really doesn't matter how likely or unlikely the combo is, people are often pretty illogical when it comes to this crazy game
@yujipooji Hey! I play Marchesa too and am from the Philippines as well. Magus of the Moon will be a metagame call, depending on how well-tuned your local EDH circle's decklists are and how many of them are tri-color Besides, it doesn't matter if you yourself are casting Jokulhaups and Obliterate back-to-back without losing your army.
Marchesa can be made viable for French, I've seen some lists in mtgtop8.com
Oh hello!! I actually don't play jokulhaups coz it gets my friends scooping. =p But i might want to add it soon. Magus just seems like a more humane alternative to win. Mass land destruction is just frowned upon at my table, and multiplayer-wise my playgroup is a lot more casual.. For French though, that's a different story.
I'll take a look at the mtgtop 8 lists, thanks. Although dethrone will be so hard to maintain in 1v1 it seems.
If you play French as well, let me know!! Me and 2 of my friends are looking for more people to playtest with. =) Our french lineup includes Kaalia, Talrand, Geist, Marath and Anafenza so if it's a diverse enough lineup to practice with.
I have also been in love with Marchesa since the first day I saw her spoiled. I have been working (mainly struggling) on a competitive duals version of her since the day i could get hands on a copy. My best friend has an extreamly fast and dangerous Rafiq deck that tends to defeat Marchesa more often then not and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for more dual oriented cards that you may have excluded for political reasons. I saw you mentioned Jokelhaups was in your deck but you took it out because your opponents just scooped in frusteration, thats the kind of thing that you can get away with in duals. Any other cards you would reccomend for duals?
Its a good card, but 4 Black can be tricky to pull off in a 3 colour deck. Although if you can somehow manage to get him to stick around he's great politically as a blocker for multiplayer.
I have also been in love with Marchesa since the first day I saw her spoiled. I have been working (mainly struggling) on a competitive duals version of her since the day i could get hands on a copy. My best friend has an extreamly fast and dangerous Rafiq deck that tends to defeat Marchesa more often then not and I was wondering if you had any suggestions for more dual oriented cards that you may have excluded for political reasons. I saw you mentioned Jokelhaups was in your deck but you took it out because your opponents just scooped in frusteration, thats the kind of thing that you can get away with in duals. Any other cards you would reccomend for duals?
Well I think in general you'll want to lower the curve a little to be duel commander playable. Oona's blackguard is great. I'm not sure how a french version is to played, but I don't see dethrone activating more than once per match.. Then maybe with 2-3 creatures with counters on the board, cast jokulhaups for the win. I'd stuff as many tutors as I can to get jokulhaups or sneak attack and take out really expensive trippy cards like kiki-jiki, flayer of the hatebound, etc. I'd definitely play magus of the moon and maybe even blood moon for synergy with sneak attack, and it absolutely destroys tri-color. Having those in play would basically cause Rafiq to automatically lose. I'd play a bit more control cards for a 1v1 game like mana leak, cryptic command, etc. Burn spells and pinpoint removal should get a bit more of play as well, along with disruption like duress, inquisition of kozilek, etc.
I think the fundamental difference between multiplayer marchesa and duel commander marchesa would be this: for multiplayer, you flex more of marchesa's dethrone muscle for a really insane board state that can kill off multiple players at will. For duel, you have to flex more of the grixis muscle, using marchesa's colors to disrupt, burn, counter and remove all threats, swing with cheap efficient creatures to get a counter, then sweep for a 1-sided board state for the win.
There are great board sweepers that double up as life outlets so we can get our life low enough to trigger dethrone.. toxic deluge comes to mind. fire covenant is great as well. damnation becomes more relevant too. Obliterate is great but too expensive to cast. If you want your sweepers to be uncounterable, boseiju, who shelters all is good.
Having planeswalkers might help as well. Liliana of the veil will be an auto include i believe. I'll read up on what else is applicable.
dark confidant is cheap enough to cast, and life fixes us for more dethrone. By lowering our curve, we can prevent confidant from going overboard with the life loss. Unspeakable symbol is a 3-drop enchantment that can gives us counters without attacking, and can fix our life as well. spellskite can redirect spells away from marchesa to protect her, costs only 2 mana, and fixes life as well. carrion feeder is a 1 drop sac outlet, and viscera seer does the same and can help us dig for what we need. Card advantage is soooo important in duel commander. In evenly matched decks, the person with more cards in hand has the definite advantage.
Having a haste outlet is important to be able to dethrone immediately, so maybe fervor, or even lightning greaves for marchesa is a good addition. anger is ok as well, but i'm not sure how to get that into the graveyard with entomb banned in the format. hammer of purphoros has little bit of synergy with blood moon and magus of the moon, and can help you work towards a 1-sided board state by getting rid of the extra mountains you no longer need.
Tutors from the top of my head: demonic tutor, diabolic intent, gamble and tainted pact cost only 2 mana. grim tutor costs 3, but it life fixes as well, but costs a crapload of money. However, if I were to spend a crapload of money on imperial recruiter, grim tutor might be a better buy, at least in this format.. I'm not comfortable playing other tutors coz they cost more mana. Tutors as a whole are really important so you can get important pieces. Since you mentioned rafiq, tutoring for blood moon, clearing the board with removal and casting it could win you the game automatically. If you have sneak attack in play, you'll actually want all your lands to make red.
1-time card advantage helps you with your life total as well, and refills your hand. night's whisper, read the bones come to mind.. skeletal scrying is awesome. Instant speed draw, life fixing. Just awesome. For more constant draw, I'd play phyrexian arena.
Polishing your mana-base is probably as important as the non-land pieces, if not more. If you find yourself constantly unable to cast marchesa by turn 4 AT THE LATEST, the duel commander format will just eat you alive. Any ramp is good. Run all the signets, the 2 talismans (indulgence and dominance I believe), probably fellwar stone and maybe charcoal diamond. 6-8 mana rocks in a color pie without inherent ramp is reasonable. I'd play chrome mox as well, but i'm not sure how that would turn out. Boseiju helps make sweepers uncounterable, and life fixes. Cavern of souls helps Marchesa resolve. wasteland is a format staple, and a fulminator mage that you can sacrifice at least twice can set your opponents back. Play all the shocklands, 9 fetchlands, ouchlands, buddy lands, city of brass and mana confluence for smoother casting, and for life fixing. riptide laboratory is an auto-include that can save marchesa from commander tax and exile. Volrath's stronghold and phyrexian tower makes for a good way to save exiling threats, with tolaria west tutoring any of the utility lands we need. high market is good. I don't think we have the luxury of playing miren, the moaning well in a faster format like duel. phyrexian altar is a great sac outlet and can help us ramp into bigger spells early. What those bigger spells are, I still have no idea. Griselbrand I think might be an amazing curve topper to ramp into. his ability can win games, and the lifelink can save us in case we forgot we were playing with 30 life instead of 40. crucible of worlds lets you fetch infinitely, fixing life total and thinning out your deck, and can recycle wasteland for the lockout.
I have to read up more on the best creatures to play, but those I discussed above are i think the minimum to make her competitive relative to other generals in the format. As you can see, they are very expensive money-wise, because this is one type of deck you can't win simply by virtue of our general alone. I doubt there can be a budget list for Marchesa that is playable in the format =(
Also, the list in this page might not even be remotely applicable in DC, and an overhaul is required to make it viable in a 1v1 30-life format. This might warrant a separate discussion from what is being talked about in this thread.. =(
Hope this helps, if anyone has a nice creature-base more suited for french, please let me know =) That's the one component of the french build that I can't seem to figure out. marton stromgald maybe? but what to swarm with I have no idea. I think goblin rabblemaster and creatures with unleash like rakdos cackler are good to have on board. arcbound ravager maybe? I really just want to go for cheap ass creatures to dethrone with when marchesa comes out turn 4, then sweep a turn later. vendilion clique, and true-name nemesis might be worth considering. Early creature swarm is exactly why you'll need a lot of ways to get your life even lower than your opponents. You want to hurt them, all the while hurting yourself more, then with marchesa out, wipe the board and kill. I feel like anything slower than that will just get devoured by other decks mid-late game..
The one thing that marchesa has going for her is this.. Grixis is an amazing control color combination with the drawback of not having any way to mitigate the lifeloss for paying for all the cool black spells.. But this works for us because dethrone actually wants this to happen.. The question really is whether or not she can keep up with the cutthroat meta.
For French I recommend a discard/counter package, drop everything that costs more than 4 that doesn't win the game on the spot, and definitely run all the really good suicide black cards like confidant and the like.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
@yujipooji, wow i really appreciate all the effort and thought that you put into your response, i wasnt expecting anything that long and detailed. I should have specified that i don't actually go by french rules. I use the regular rules and just play 1v1 matches but your help is still very relevant. Maybe i'll make a decklist and post it and you can see what you think. Thanks for the detailed responce.
For French I recommend a discard/counter package, drop everything that costs more than 4 that doesn't win the game on the spot, and definitely run all the really good suicide black cards like confidant and the like.
Hi, what quality pieces would you recommend for a french build? The creature lineup to me is a real head-scratcher. I actually really believe marchesa can do great in DC, and I think she's the best general that can represent grixis colors in the format. If you had the time, I'd appreciate it if you can get specific with stuff that can be incorporated into the deck, especially the creatures. =)
@yujipooji, wow i really appreciate all the effort and thought that you put into your response, i wasnt expecting anything that long and detailed. I should have specified that i don't actually go by french rules. I use the regular rules and just play 1v1 matches but your help is still very relevant. Maybe i'll make a decklist and post it and you can see what you think. Thanks for the detailed responce.
Haha no problem! It may be a long ass response, but that's all really theoretical and should be taken with a grain of salt. @theonecalledrune I believe is the marchesa expert here so I think he'll be able to answer your questions better. =)
as for mindless automaton, He's nice to have if you'll run a reanimator package with reanimate or yawgmoth's will or something.. But if it's strictly to draw cards, there might be better pieces out there.. but i do like that he doesn't need color fixing to cast, and that he actually can come back to life on his own with marchesa in play =))
I like mulldrifter for drawing, and dark confidant or pain seer double up as life outlets to keep dethrone running. As mentioned, instant draw spells from black which I mentioned in the previous comment draw you a crap load of cards and loses you life all in one.
Well, if you're not running a french banlist, my comments still apply. Lowering your curve to less than 4 except if they end games like @theonecalledrune said will help you keep up with the speed of decks like rafiq. In fact, a non-french 1v1 gives you access to sol ring, so that's good. entomb i believe is still legal in traditional commander, so you can run anger and it'll be a really nice haste outlet to have. scourge of the throne would be the 6 drop that you'll want to play as a finisher of sorts.
If you're more into 1v1 commander than multiplayer, I really suggest trying out a full blown duel commander complete with the french banlist. In my opinion it's faster, more exciting, and more balanced as far as 1v1 is concerned. I play traditional commander these days strictly multiplayer. In 1v1 traditional commander, assuming the decks going against each other are evenly matched, some games end up being decided by whoever draws sol ring first to ramp into their biggest threat. The french banlist and 30 life balances a lot of those things out. Rafiq actually has had a lot of success in that format, so you can convince your friend into going french too. Just my two cents. =)
Also, why Scourge of the Throne? I never really liked that card for duels and never really understood why so many people like it. Is there some hidden synergy i dont realize?
@theonecalledrune I would appreciate it if you would check it out as well.
The only six drops i would probably run in a french build would be mikeaus, jokulhops, and flayer honestly. Scourge is great for clearing a table, but 1v1 the lack of haste is a real dealbreaker. Thoughtsieze, duress and the like are solid, I would run all of the edict creatures (fleshbag marauder etc...), pain seer, confidant, vendilion clique. Pretty much her decklist should look like a tempo/control shell. Force of will leading a counter package would be also pretty in line for dealing with the french meta. Sol Ring is banned too I think? With all the cheap tempo spells, snapcaster is a shoo in, imperial recruiter is still invaluable. Pretty much take my list, chop off pretty much everything 5+ cmc except living death, monoblack sidisi, and those 3 I listed earlier, and add a counter/discard suite.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
what do you think? it sounds like you would probably use Mikeaus over duplicant and sidisi or living death over something. Sidisi i can definitely get behind but im not sure about Mikeaus or Living Death. the question I have for you is how impactful is Mikeaus really? My concern is he will be killed/exiled the second he hits the board and he wont be able to do much. Its also a shame that he doesn't give Marchesa undying. I also wonder how often undying even gets to trigger considering marchesa will be giving everything counters before mikeaus even hits the field. As for Living death, my playgroup loves to play lots of graveyard hate so i dont think living death will get to return anything, I'm also worried about playing it against reanimator decks like Karador or Sharuum that might gain a larger advantage then myself when played. Do you find the concerns i have brought up to be a problem? Also what is your opinion on Shadowborn Demon and Duplicant?
Also, why Scourge of the Throne? I never really liked that card for duels and never really understood why so many people like it. Is there some hidden synergy i dont realize?
@theonecalledrune I would appreciate it if you would check it out as well.
Here's the thing about scourge. He's kinda crappy on his own. But surrounded by a decent haste outlet, an early established creature swarm, and dethrone "turned on", he's a finisher, plain and simple. If you decide to put in kiki-jiki as your five drop, i think you can do even 3-4 combat steps with a life outlet like unspeakable symbol or spellskite. A good finisher at the 6 drop spot, but only if you have quality set pieces at the lower portions of the mana curve. I also like him because he does not rely on marchesa to make a huge mess of your opponent. He has his own dethrone. And the extra combat step is going to hurt, most likely kill.
When going against high quality duel commander decks, never think that your quality creature threats can stay in play for more than a turn or 2. Situational cards should also be cut. puppeteer clique is bad i think. Sower of temptation will find it's uses though. Gilded drake I believe can find a spot in the deck. I strongly agree with adding power blue pieces like vendilion clique and snapcaster mage. Venser is also a good piece to have.
@Decimator1's suggestion of shadowmage infiltrator fits in the deck, because he's a relatively cheap body that draws cards.
Pupeteer clique has some fun synergy in marchesa. If you can get a counter on what he reanimates and then sac it to an outlet, you avoid the exile clause and get to keep what you re-animated. Plus the persist is nice when dropping that jokelhaups if you dont have marchesa out.
Edit: However that being said I just played against a deck with very few creatures and I had it in my hand with no targets in my opponents graveyard. I think considering how many control decks out there that run very few creatures like Thrax, Tasigur and Narset ill take Puppeteer Clique out
@Decimator1 I play Shadowmage Infiltrator, even before he was spoiled. Nets you cards early, and most people just ignore him.
I'm just curious why aren't there a lot of people running Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots? I was able to find space to squeeze the two and I'm really happy protecting Marchesa and at the same times having her take early assault first, then follow up the following turns with guaranteed dethrone triggers.
I don't run boots because I like to maximize the amount of dudes I turn sideways, so I run creature sac outlets over them as my marchesa protection. Just personal preference I guess.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I have it in my list atm, and I think it is ok. Not really bad, but not amazing either. Maybe I will try out Liliana's Specter instead.
I think about cutting Sage of Hours, as I never got an extra turn of it yet and neither could I do the Necrotic Ooze combo. I haven't played the deck that much yet, so far Sage always felt like a vanilla creature. Maybe I cut Ooze too? :/
Idk when it came down it I realized after weeks of playing regularly I had never once sought out the ooze and the one or two times I actually played him it was just as a vanilla 3/3 to get a dude out on the board. That was enough to make me cut him.
As for Sage of Hours, I've never been a fan of that card. I didn't actually cut him so much as never put him in. Some suggestions to put in his place: Necropotence (obviously awesome), Viscera Seer (was skeptical at first but she's been an absolute house, I have never once been sad to see her and use her all the time now), and Demonic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor (obviously awesome).
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Necropotence is a card quality machine, just fill my hand back up every turn. Sneak attack is awesome but it is super easy to stall out with it as it tends to wipe out your hand very quickly. I am constantly looking for more cards with this deck.
Viscera Seer is a less obvious but I can tell you from using her she is awesome. She is a 1/1 wizard for 1 less than sage of hours so she is better for use as a vanilla (and non-human so mikaeus loves her). In addition while there is occasional use of the sage's ability for solid gain there is continuous and constant use of her ability. You are constantly improving your draws with her out there and can even do some small tutoring if you need to dig for a specific card and have a lot of guys or a Sage of Fables (sac'ing herself to scry at the end of every turn with sage of fables out there until the card you want is on top is a hilariously awesome power play). I've heard it said that scry 1 is sort of equivalent to drawing 0.5 cards. This makes it the closest we can get to sac a creature for a card and its on a cheap wizard to boot.
Just because sage can occasionally net me an explosive win doesn't necessarily he mean I should be running him over these guys. When in this deck the three things I'm always needing are cards, sac effects and fast counter abilities (i.e. anything that gives me counters before the following turn: haste, Unspeakable Symbol, Mikaeus, Sage of Fables, etc.). I'd much rather have something that gives me one of those three than something is a vanilla 1/1 with an outside chance of winning me the game once in a while if the stars align.
Edit: Necropotence already has a slot in my build
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
And I will admit this, once you do manage to win with infinite turns he gets much much more useful in your playgroup. In most casual groups I've seen no one ever forgets the infinite combos, especially the infinite turn ones. I have a karn deck and I've had people use their only artifact removal spell on my basically useless Codex Shredder over my actually useful mana rocks just because I happened to go infinite with it once. I think my group would not use removal on Sage of Hours to start but if I did pull off an infinite turn combo like you mentioned then he would be a removal vacuum after that. Once you do it once it really doesn't matter how likely or unlikely the combo is, people are often pretty illogical when it comes to this crazy game
Oh hello!! I actually don't play jokulhaups coz it gets my friends scooping. =p But i might want to add it soon. Magus just seems like a more humane alternative to win. Mass land destruction is just frowned upon at my table, and multiplayer-wise my playgroup is a lot more casual.. For French though, that's a different story.
I'll take a look at the mtgtop 8 lists, thanks. Although dethrone will be so hard to maintain in 1v1 it seems.
If you play French as well, let me know!! Me and 2 of my friends are looking for more people to playtest with. =) Our french lineup includes Kaalia, Talrand, Geist, Marath and Anafenza so if it's a diverse enough lineup to practice with.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Well I think in general you'll want to lower the curve a little to be duel commander playable. Oona's blackguard is great. I'm not sure how a french version is to played, but I don't see dethrone activating more than once per match.. Then maybe with 2-3 creatures with counters on the board, cast jokulhaups for the win. I'd stuff as many tutors as I can to get jokulhaups or sneak attack and take out really expensive trippy cards like kiki-jiki, flayer of the hatebound, etc. I'd definitely play magus of the moon and maybe even blood moon for synergy with sneak attack, and it absolutely destroys tri-color. Having those in play would basically cause Rafiq to automatically lose. I'd play a bit more control cards for a 1v1 game like mana leak, cryptic command, etc. Burn spells and pinpoint removal should get a bit more of play as well, along with disruption like duress, inquisition of kozilek, etc.
I think the fundamental difference between multiplayer marchesa and duel commander marchesa would be this: for multiplayer, you flex more of marchesa's dethrone muscle for a really insane board state that can kill off multiple players at will. For duel, you have to flex more of the grixis muscle, using marchesa's colors to disrupt, burn, counter and remove all threats, swing with cheap efficient creatures to get a counter, then sweep for a 1-sided board state for the win.
There are great board sweepers that double up as life outlets so we can get our life low enough to trigger dethrone.. toxic deluge comes to mind. fire covenant is great as well. damnation becomes more relevant too. Obliterate is great but too expensive to cast. If you want your sweepers to be uncounterable, boseiju, who shelters all is good.
Pinpoint removal package would include: dreadbore, hero's downfall, go for the throat and terminate.. diabolic edict and devour flesh for Geist.
Discard package: duress, inquisition of kozilek, distress, hymn to tourach, thoughtseize, even brain maggot or mesmeric fiend if you really want your opponent's hand empty.
You can add a small land hate package: sinkhole, wasteland and pillage, with fulminator mage and avalanche riders as creatures
Having planeswalkers might help as well. Liliana of the veil will be an auto include i believe. I'll read up on what else is applicable.
dark confidant is cheap enough to cast, and life fixes us for more dethrone. By lowering our curve, we can prevent confidant from going overboard with the life loss. Unspeakable symbol is a 3-drop enchantment that can gives us counters without attacking, and can fix our life as well. spellskite can redirect spells away from marchesa to protect her, costs only 2 mana, and fixes life as well. carrion feeder is a 1 drop sac outlet, and viscera seer does the same and can help us dig for what we need. Card advantage is soooo important in duel commander. In evenly matched decks, the person with more cards in hand has the definite advantage.
Having a haste outlet is important to be able to dethrone immediately, so maybe fervor, or even lightning greaves for marchesa is a good addition. anger is ok as well, but i'm not sure how to get that into the graveyard with entomb banned in the format. hammer of purphoros has little bit of synergy with blood moon and magus of the moon, and can help you work towards a 1-sided board state by getting rid of the extra mountains you no longer need.
Tutors from the top of my head: demonic tutor, diabolic intent, gamble and tainted pact cost only 2 mana. grim tutor costs 3, but it life fixes as well, but costs a crapload of money. However, if I were to spend a crapload of money on imperial recruiter, grim tutor might be a better buy, at least in this format.. I'm not comfortable playing other tutors coz they cost more mana. Tutors as a whole are really important so you can get important pieces. Since you mentioned rafiq, tutoring for blood moon, clearing the board with removal and casting it could win you the game automatically. If you have sneak attack in play, you'll actually want all your lands to make red.
1-time card advantage helps you with your life total as well, and refills your hand. night's whisper, read the bones come to mind.. skeletal scrying is awesome. Instant speed draw, life fixing. Just awesome. For more constant draw, I'd play phyrexian arena.
Polishing your mana-base is probably as important as the non-land pieces, if not more. If you find yourself constantly unable to cast marchesa by turn 4 AT THE LATEST, the duel commander format will just eat you alive. Any ramp is good. Run all the signets, the 2 talismans (indulgence and dominance I believe), probably fellwar stone and maybe charcoal diamond. 6-8 mana rocks in a color pie without inherent ramp is reasonable. I'd play chrome mox as well, but i'm not sure how that would turn out. Boseiju helps make sweepers uncounterable, and life fixes. Cavern of souls helps Marchesa resolve. wasteland is a format staple, and a fulminator mage that you can sacrifice at least twice can set your opponents back. Play all the shocklands, 9 fetchlands, ouchlands, buddy lands, city of brass and mana confluence for smoother casting, and for life fixing. riptide laboratory is an auto-include that can save marchesa from commander tax and exile. Volrath's stronghold and phyrexian tower makes for a good way to save exiling threats, with tolaria west tutoring any of the utility lands we need. high market is good. I don't think we have the luxury of playing miren, the moaning well in a faster format like duel. phyrexian altar is a great sac outlet and can help us ramp into bigger spells early. What those bigger spells are, I still have no idea. Griselbrand I think might be an amazing curve topper to ramp into. his ability can win games, and the lifelink can save us in case we forgot we were playing with 30 life instead of 40. crucible of worlds lets you fetch infinitely, fixing life total and thinning out your deck, and can recycle wasteland for the lockout.
I have to read up more on the best creatures to play, but those I discussed above are i think the minimum to make her competitive relative to other generals in the format. As you can see, they are very expensive money-wise, because this is one type of deck you can't win simply by virtue of our general alone. I doubt there can be a budget list for Marchesa that is playable in the format =(
Also, the list in this page might not even be remotely applicable in DC, and an overhaul is required to make it viable in a 1v1 30-life format. This might warrant a separate discussion from what is being talked about in this thread.. =(
Hope this helps, if anyone has a nice creature-base more suited for french, please let me know =) That's the one component of the french build that I can't seem to figure out. marton stromgald maybe? but what to swarm with I have no idea. I think goblin rabblemaster and creatures with unleash like rakdos cackler are good to have on board. arcbound ravager maybe? I really just want to go for cheap ass creatures to dethrone with when marchesa comes out turn 4, then sweep a turn later. vendilion clique, and true-name nemesis might be worth considering. Early creature swarm is exactly why you'll need a lot of ways to get your life even lower than your opponents. You want to hurt them, all the while hurting yourself more, then with marchesa out, wipe the board and kill. I feel like anything slower than that will just get devoured by other decks mid-late game..
The one thing that marchesa has going for her is this.. Grixis is an amazing control color combination with the drawback of not having any way to mitigate the lifeloss for paying for all the cool black spells.. But this works for us because dethrone actually wants this to happen.. The question really is whether or not she can keep up with the cutthroat meta.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Hi, what quality pieces would you recommend for a french build? The creature lineup to me is a real head-scratcher. I actually really believe marchesa can do great in DC, and I think she's the best general that can represent grixis colors in the format. If you had the time, I'd appreciate it if you can get specific with stuff that can be incorporated into the deck, especially the creatures. =)
Haha no problem! It may be a long ass response, but that's all really theoretical and should be taken with a grain of salt. @theonecalledrune I believe is the marchesa expert here so I think he'll be able to answer your questions better. =)
as for mindless automaton, He's nice to have if you'll run a reanimator package with reanimate or yawgmoth's will or something.. But if it's strictly to draw cards, there might be better pieces out there.. but i do like that he doesn't need color fixing to cast, and that he actually can come back to life on his own with marchesa in play =))
I like mulldrifter for drawing, and dark confidant or pain seer double up as life outlets to keep dethrone running. As mentioned, instant draw spells from black which I mentioned in the previous comment draw you a crap load of cards and loses you life all in one.
Well, if you're not running a french banlist, my comments still apply. Lowering your curve to less than 4 except if they end games like @theonecalledrune said will help you keep up with the speed of decks like rafiq. In fact, a non-french 1v1 gives you access to sol ring, so that's good. entomb i believe is still legal in traditional commander, so you can run anger and it'll be a really nice haste outlet to have. scourge of the throne would be the 6 drop that you'll want to play as a finisher of sorts.
If you're more into 1v1 commander than multiplayer, I really suggest trying out a full blown duel commander complete with the french banlist. In my opinion it's faster, more exciting, and more balanced as far as 1v1 is concerned. I play traditional commander these days strictly multiplayer. In 1v1 traditional commander, assuming the decks going against each other are evenly matched, some games end up being decided by whoever draws sol ring first to ramp into their biggest threat. The french banlist and 30 life balances a lot of those things out. Rafiq actually has had a lot of success in that format, so you can convince your friend into going french too. Just my two cents. =)
Also, why Scourge of the Throne? I never really liked that card for duels and never really understood why so many people like it. Is there some hidden synergy i dont realize?
@theonecalledrune I would appreciate it if you would check it out as well.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
5 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
5 Puppeteer Clique
5 Shadowborn Demon
5 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
6 Duplicant
6 Flayer of the Hatebound
6 Jokulhaups
what do you think? it sounds like you would probably use Mikeaus over duplicant and sidisi or living death over something. Sidisi i can definitely get behind but im not sure about Mikeaus or Living Death. the question I have for you is how impactful is Mikeaus really? My concern is he will be killed/exiled the second he hits the board and he wont be able to do much. Its also a shame that he doesn't give Marchesa undying. I also wonder how often undying even gets to trigger considering marchesa will be giving everything counters before mikeaus even hits the field. As for Living death, my playgroup loves to play lots of graveyard hate so i dont think living death will get to return anything, I'm also worried about playing it against reanimator decks like Karador or Sharuum that might gain a larger advantage then myself when played. Do you find the concerns i have brought up to be a problem? Also what is your opinion on Shadowborn Demon and Duplicant?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
RGWMayael the AnimaRGW
UBRMarchesa, the Black RoseUBR
Modern Decks
RGWNaya BurnRGW
Here's the thing about scourge. He's kinda crappy on his own. But surrounded by a decent haste outlet, an early established creature swarm, and dethrone "turned on", he's a finisher, plain and simple. If you decide to put in kiki-jiki as your five drop, i think you can do even 3-4 combat steps with a life outlet like unspeakable symbol or spellskite. A good finisher at the 6 drop spot, but only if you have quality set pieces at the lower portions of the mana curve. I also like him because he does not rely on marchesa to make a huge mess of your opponent. He has his own dethrone. And the extra combat step is going to hurt, most likely kill.
When going against high quality duel commander decks, never think that your quality creature threats can stay in play for more than a turn or 2. Situational cards should also be cut. puppeteer clique is bad i think. Sower of temptation will find it's uses though. Gilded drake I believe can find a spot in the deck. I strongly agree with adding power blue pieces like vendilion clique and snapcaster mage. Venser is also a good piece to have.
@Decimator1's suggestion of shadowmage infiltrator fits in the deck, because he's a relatively cheap body that draws cards.
I think creeping tar pit will be an all star in french. profaner of the dead is good for a one-sided board wipe, and so is cyclonic rift.
I'll take a look at your link in a bit =)
Edit: However that being said I just played against a deck with very few creatures and I had it in my hand with no targets in my opponents graveyard. I think considering how many control decks out there that run very few creatures like Thrax, Tasigur and Narset ill take Puppeteer Clique out
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I'm just curious why aren't there a lot of people running Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots? I was able to find space to squeeze the two and I'm really happy protecting Marchesa and at the same times having her take early assault first, then follow up the following turns with guaranteed dethrone triggers.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)